PDA

View Full Version : cc: Jamie Sharper... Am I the only one...


HardKnockTexan
03-24-2005, 09:48 AM
I know that Jamie Sharper has been a corner stone of the Texans defense for the last 3 seasons. However, I havent been impressed with his play nearly as much as my fellow posters seem to have been. He has lead the team in tackles for his 3 seasons in Houston, but to be honest, I've seen more mistakes, missed tackles, poor persuite routs, mistakes in coverage, than I liked out of the teams "backbone." Him leading the team in tackles isnt as impressive to me as most it seems. His possition on the defense makes it to where he should be in on just about every tackle when the oponent runs the football. I watched every game last season and I would cringe when Jamie was the first to the football. MANY times he would just slow the runner down and not bring him down. Now dont get me wrong, I like the guy, and I think he's a GOOD player... not great, which is what the team needs in that possition. So maybe getting rid of Sharper this season will open the door for the Texans to be able to bring in the caliber of player they need. When the other team runs the ball... our inside linebackers need to be the first one's their.. atleast 1 yard behinde the LOS. Constantly, other teams would gain 3+++ yards when running due to lack of linebacker presence. The Texans DLINE i felt did a solid job of ocupying the offensive line (their stats relate this aswell... so few sacks from their DLINE and little in tackles too). So, even though at first it seemed a little strange to me for the Texans to shop Jamie Sharper around.. the more I thought about it, the more it made sence. Lets just hope they find a better replacement this season.. or possibly next.

-Jeff

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 10:27 AM
dont you think the D-Line had a little to do with letting RBs get 3+ yrds every run ? I mean they were terrible at run support, i really thought the best guy on the DL at syopping the run this year was R.Smith. But a linebackers job is not just to stop the run, they also drop into coverage from time to time, so when they do that shouldnt it be up to the D-Line/Out side linebackers to stop the run. I'm sorry but i always thought Jamie was one of our most sure tacklers, the guy is a play maker, and even though he may be on the down slide of his career, i dont feel it will be easy to find a LB to match his productivness. Maybe Greenwood can do they job as good or better than Sharper, but if not we will all see what a playmaker we had in Sharper !

the wonger need food
03-24-2005, 11:19 AM
dont you think the D-Line had a little to do with letting RBs get 3+ yrds every run ? I mean they were terrible at run support!
At least they weren't as bad as the secondary... statistically anyway.

I'm sorry but i always thought Jamie was one of our most sure tacklers, the guy is a play maker, and even though he may be on the down slide of his career, i dont feel it will be easy to find a LB to match his productivness.
Sharper missed a ton of tackles last year. Go back and look at the games. He is not a playmaker. Ray Lewis is a playmaker. Derrick Brooks is a playmaker. Teddy Bruschi is a playmaker. Sure he led the team in tackles, that's his job. He's more of a Zach Thomas without the tackling ability.

Maybe Greenwood can do they job as good or better than Sharper, but if not we will all see what a playmaker we had in Sharper !
I'm not happy about having to chuck my #55 jersey, but it's time for a change. They've had one of the worst defenses in the league the past 2 years and the linebackers are the most important part of a 3-4. A change had to be made if they're going to make any progress.

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 11:23 AM
yeah well the secondary would LOOK a whole lot better if the D-Line/LBs could get a little better pressure on the opposing QB. I still dont agree with you on all the missed tackles, i dont rememebr seeing to much of any. But i do agree we need to get some young blood in here, to prepare our defense for the future. And Jamir going is problably for the best.

Marcus
03-24-2005, 11:23 AM
dont you think the D-Line had a little to do with letting RBs get 3+ yrds every run ? I mean they were terrible at run support, i really thought the best guy on the DL at syopping the run this year was R.Smith. But a linebackers job is not just to stop the run, they also drop into coverage from time to time, so when they do that shouldnt it be up to the D-Line/Out side linebackers to stop the run. I'm sorry but i always thought Jamie was one of our most sure tacklers, the guy is a play maker, and even though he may be on the down slide of his career, i dont feel it will be easy to find a LB to match his productivness. Maybe Greenwood can do they job as good or better than Sharper, but if not we will all see what a playmaker we had in Sharper !

You have a 4-3 mindset, instead of a 3-4 mindset. In the 3-4 scheme, it's not the job of the defensive line to look for the ball carrier. Thier job is to disrupt the offensive line's blocking scheme to enable the linebackers the freedom to seek out the ballcarrier on running plays, and provide coverage on passing downs. As Casserly has stated, "in the 3-4, the DL ties up the OL, and the 4 LBs find the ball and cover".

After reviewing the game tape, the coaches during the meetings concluded that the DL was doing their job, (tying up the OL) and that the linebacking core was doing a poor job of 'finding the ball and covering'.

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 11:26 AM
oh i know this marcus, thats why our linebacking crew is among the top in the league in tackles, the 3-4 is designed where the LBs are in position to get most of the tackles. But the DL may of dissrupted the OL but obviously not to much, i mean how many sacks did our D-Linemen get this season ? Now ya cant tell me they shouldnt still be getting sacks !

Marcus
03-24-2005, 11:42 AM
Now ya cant tell me they shouldnt still be getting sacks !

Oh yes, I sure can. Again, quit thinking 4-3. Every once in a awhile, a DL on a 3-4 defense will occasionally will get a sack, but that's not by design. The DL's job, again, is to disrupt the OL to enable the LBs to get to the QB unimpeded. The LBs out on the edge put the pressure on QB.

Think about this. You have 3 defensive linemen going up against 5 offensive linemen. (2 OTs, 2OGs, and a C) Asking them to sack the QB is unrealistic. It's the faster, quicker LBs whose job it is to get to the QB.

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 11:47 AM
hmm ok well i musta been dreaming when i saw the stats on the 2002 DL and the 2004 DL, cause 02 were WAY better, and obviously the DL isnt dissrupting to much, we were nearly last in QB sacks this season. SO i guess all our outside LBs suck as well as all our ILBs !

Marcus
03-24-2005, 12:00 PM
hmm ok well i musta been dreaming when i saw the stats on the 2002 DL and the 2004 DL, cause 02 were WAY better, and obviously the DL isnt dissrupting to much, we were nearly last in QB sacks this season. SO i guess all our outside LBs suck as well as all our ILBs !

Let me see the stats on the 2002 DL and the 2004 DL.

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 12:04 PM
I saw them on NFL network, ya have NFL network ? Well they were talking about or defense in 02 to 04, and their was a big difference in the numbers. I'll try to find them for ya but i'm sure Vinny or Fiddy could do it better than i could ! where would u go to find that kinda info ? espn.com stats ?

infantrycak
03-24-2005, 12:19 PM
where would u go to find that kinda info ? espn.com stats ?

NFL.com has stats back through the 2002 section. I would suggest going to each year and clicking the Texans--toward the bottom is a list of individual D statistics so you can add up tackles/sacks by the DL and LBs for each year. Remember on the DL the Texans substitute a lot so to be fair you should include the numbers from the backups as well.

G-Man
03-24-2005, 12:20 PM
Last year we only had a miserable 4.5 sacks from our starting 3 DL. i could not find the information on 2002. Robaire did not play in 2002, who played in Robaire's slot?

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 12:20 PM
NFL.com has stats back through the 2002 section. I would suggest going to each year and clicking the Texans--toward the bottom is a list of individual D statistics so you can add up tackles/sacks by the DL and LBs for each year. Remember on the DL the Texans substitute a lot so to be fair you should include the numbers from the backups as well.

alrigth thanks Cak !

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 12:39 PM
in 2002 our d-line total combined for 9.5 sack and 126 tackles thats only including G. Walker, S. Payne, Deloach, C. Sears (and i should have one more for 02 but i dont know the the other DL was)

in 2004 our d-line combined for 4.5 sacks and 144 tackles and thats icluding R. Smith, G. Walker, S. Payne, Deloac, and C. Sears

so 2002 tackles is lower than i have it shown up there ! Anybody know who or other 2002 DL guys were ?

cyanides
03-24-2005, 01:01 PM
According to nfl.com

------------------Sacks----------Tackles
Charles Hill----------0---------------1
Jerry Deloach-------1---------------24
Seth Payne---------1---------------54
Cory Sears---------1----------------14
Erik Flowers---------0---------------3
Gary Walker--------6.5--------------36

Total--------------9.5--------------132

G-Man
03-24-2005, 01:03 PM
http://www.footballdb.com/teamstat.html?yr=2002&tm=13

the football database has a lot of information. the address is footballdb.com. It does not show any other dl on this website.

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 01:10 PM
see they had a few less tackles ^^ than in 04 but had a few more sacks. So it may seem like better stats to some but not to others, depends on how you look at it, they also talked about QB pressures and tipped balls. but i looked on the nflnetwork website and couldnt find if the program it was on will run again !

cyanides
03-24-2005, 01:30 PM
Actually I don't think the "line" had more sacks in 2002 vs 2004. What sticks out to me is that G Funk went from 6.5 in 2002 to 0.5 in 2004. Seems to me the line is playing the same and Walker either had a fluke year in 2002 or hasn't been playing up to his standard in 2004.

Sharper also went from 5.5 sacks in 2002 to 2 sacks in 2004. I thought our line last year was better that the 2002 DL. So what's up with that? I figured he should have more sacks.

D-ReK
03-24-2005, 01:39 PM
Actually I don't think the "line" had more sacks in 2002 vs 2004. What sticks out to me is that G Funk went from 6.5 in 2002 to 0.5 in 2004. Seems to me the line is playing the same and Walker either had a fluke year in 2002 or hasn't been playing up to his standard in 2004.

G-Funk's 2002 season wasn't a fluke...Up until 2002, he had had a great career, but he got injured in 2003 and it obviously affected his play in 2004...I think he'll improve this year, however, because he's further removed from his injuries and he's not coming off of a contract year...Usually players take it easy the year after they get a big contract and then start to work hard after the season is over...If he doesn't improve this year, though, he may be released and we'll have to eat all that dead cap money...

rittenhouserobz
03-24-2005, 01:46 PM
Does Babin or Peek every line up at end? If they get a sack when rushing the passer from that position, then that should count for the DL and not the LB's.

Marcus
03-24-2005, 01:49 PM
Sharper also went from 5.5 sacks in 2002 to 2 sacks in 2004. I thought our line last year was better that the 2002 DL. So what's up with that? I figured he should have more sacks.

Considering that he was going to be a cap hit of 6.5 million this year, Casserly might well have considered that drop off in sacks to be very significant.

As for the 2002 vs. 2004 stats -

In 2002, the linebackers had 19 sacks, and the DL had 9.5
In 2004, the linebackers had 13.5 sacks, and the DL had 4.5 (Smith 2, Payne 2, and Walker .5)

In 2002, 8 of the 19 linebacker sacks were Jeff Posey's. Sharper 5.5, and Wong 5.5. In 2004, Kailee Wong was the only one to match the 2002 totals, 5.5.

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 02:01 PM
Considering that he was going to be a cap hit of 6.5 million this year, Casserly might well have considered that drop off in sacks to be very significant.

As for the 2002 vs. 2004 stats -

In 2002, the linebackers had 19 sacks, and the DL had 9.5
In 2004, the linebackers had 13.5 sacks, and the DL had 4.5 (Smith 2, Payne 2, and Walker .5)

In 2002, 8 of the 19 linebacker sacks were Jeff Posey's. Sharper 5.5, and Wong 5.5. In 2004, Kailee Wong was the only one to match the 2002 totals, 5.5.


thats why i wanted to show ya the stats, see there is a big diff from 02 to 04. and it may be because of personel, but regardless the drop is noticable !

bckey
03-24-2005, 02:07 PM
Oh yes, I sure can. Again, quit thinking 4-3. Every once in a awhile, a DL on a 3-4 defense will occasionally will get a sack, but that's not by design. The DL's job, again, is to disrupt the OL to enable the LBs to get to the QB unimpeded. The LBs out on the edge put the pressure on QB.

Think about this. You have 3 defensive linemen going up against 5 offensive linemen. (2 OTs, 2OGs, and a C) Asking them to sack the QB is unrealistic. It's the faster, quicker LBs whose job it is to get to the QB.


I think the 3-4 defense works better when there is pressure from the dl as well as lb's. I don't think it is unrealistic either. Somebody has to be matched up 1 on 1. Seth Payne was pressuring Miami's qb in our opening win a few years ago and it made a big difference. Our dl just has not done a good job and frankly are way overpaid for the performance we have been getting out of them. Payne has never fully recovered from his injury and maybe this year will be his comeback year. But if it isn't what then. Walker was aweful last year and Smith was just ok but it was his first year in the 3-4. It will be very interesting to see how our dl plays this year. The Texans have alot of money tied up in our 3 starting defensive lineman and as of yet they are not getting their $ worth. I think part of the shake up in the lb could be a result of the poor dl play. There isn't a whole lot the Texans can do about the dl right now because of the big money that is tied up there and the cap hit we would take by cutting mainly Walker. The best thing they can do to solve it is draft replacements now and have some competition. Maybe it will help motivate them.

Get faster linebackers to make up the difference for our slow, fat, happy, overpaid dl. If both the dl and linebackers play well this year we could have an awesome defense. IF.

D-ReK
03-24-2005, 02:19 PM
By design, the 3-4 D-Line is manned by two-gap players who would normally be DTs in a 4-3 defense...Their main objective is to tie up as many blockers as possible and push the O-Lineman back so that the QB has no pocket to step into, allowing the edge rushers to have a clear shot at the QB...On running plays, the D-Line is still supposed to push back the O-Line making it more likely for the RB to be dropped for a loss...If a hole does open up, it should be plugged by a LB...The D-Linemen aren't necessarily expected to put up big sack numbers, but they are supposed to push back the O-Line...

bckey
03-24-2005, 02:31 PM
If your dl gets enough of a push then the qb is pressured and not just by linebackers. The pocket will collapse. We should know all too well. How many times have we seen Carr's pocket collapse with just a 3 or 4 man rush.

infantrycak
03-24-2005, 03:04 PM
Y'all are all right. The 3-4 is designed for the DL to be two gappers holding up the OL for the LB's to make plays. BUT, on very good 3-4's you will see that the DL both pushes back the OL limiting the QB's options and gets some sacks--such as Walker in 2002. Take a look at the sack production by the DL for Pittsburgh or the Patriots. What we need is a pre-injury Payne pushing the middle (1-3 sacks on the year) so there is no pocket and Walker and Smith to push for 5-6 sacks each. 14 sacks even if not a glamorous number from the DL will in a narrow sense paint a broader picture of pressure from the DL--if that happens count on greatly increased production from Babin and Peek/Wong/rookie.

Trapped
03-24-2005, 03:25 PM
wut up fellas, im new to this board, but i think Dom Capers has the right personnell he wants now. I think we are missing a solid ROLB though. Let's be real now, Kailee Wong was never that sack artist, i think he would be better playing MLB in a 3-4 similar to what a ROLB does in a 4-3. Ok in run support and ok in pass coverage, something that Kailee is good at.

I hope we get Shawn Merriman or trade down to get Demarcus Ware. U guys will be surprised with what kind of defense we will have next year.

Im gonna use an example of what kind of defense we are gonna look like next year. The Jets. Even though the Jets are a 4-3 team, the have 3-4 personnell. Jason Fergurson is their NT(Seth Payne), Dewayne Robertson is their RE(Robaire Smith) and Shaun Ellis is really more of a 3-4 LE(Gary Walker).

Morlon Greenwood is very similar to Jonathan Vilma, as they are both coverage LBs who are more run and chase LBs. Kailee Wong is alot like Eric Barton as they are both the Balanced type LBs and Jason Babin is alot like Victor Hobson/Cowart as they excel in run support.

And John Abraham is more of a 3-4 ROLB. But they have the personelle to list him as a 4-3 DE. I doubt we can find a John Abraham in the draft, but some candidates are Merriman and Ware. Peek can be a candidate too only if he can get his head straight. We simply need a pass rush artist. Because the ROLB in alot of 3-4 teams usually come up with the most sacks and Kailee simply wasn't getting the job done because he didn't fit that role well.

I just think Foreman and Wong didn't fit the scheme right with the personelle Dom wanted to have. Sharper in a way wasn't really a run and chase LB that i think Dom wants or need from his LB.

aj.
03-24-2005, 07:21 PM
Y'all are all right. The 3-4 is designed for the DL to be two gappers holding up the OL for the LB's to make plays. BUT, on very good 3-4's you will see that the DL both pushes back the OL limiting the QB's options and gets some sacks--such as Walker in 2002. Take a look at the sack production by the DL for Pittsburgh That's because the Steelers 3-4 fronts and techniques are very different from the Texans. They use angles, stunts, and play one-gap a lot more than the Texans. I remember the preseason game last year watching the endzone replays of the Steelers DL coming off in unison shooting gaps right or left (usually right). Todd Wade was never able to get an inside seal on the Steelers LDE and it created havoc all night - or at least for the few drives that the starters were in there.

http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/5665414

TexansTrueFan
03-24-2005, 08:07 PM
That's because the Steelers 3-4 fronts and techniques are very different from the Texans. They use angles, stunts, and play one-gap a lot more than the Texans. I remember the preseason game last year watching the endzone replays of the Steelers DL coming off in unison shooting gaps right or left (usually right). Todd Wade was never able to get an inside seal on the Steelers LDE and it created havoc all night - or at least for the few drives that the starters were in there.

http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/5665414


well dang AJ i thought capers was a defensive master mind, shouldnt he be able to teach or DL something as simple as all ^^^ That ??? Not to complicated if ya ask me !

aj.
03-24-2005, 08:14 PM
The point is there are multiple DL attack schemes in the 3-4 and the Steelers under Cowher is different from the Texans under Capers by design.

wags
03-24-2005, 08:34 PM
The point is there are multiple DL attack schemes in the 3-4 and the Steelers under Cowher is different from the Texans under Capers by design.

Lebeau (sp?) and Capers were kind of the inventors of the zone blitz, weren't they? And Lebeau is still with the Steelers correct?

D-ReK
03-24-2005, 08:41 PM
Lebeau (sp?) and Capers were kind of the inventors of the zone blitz, weren't they? And Lebeau is still with the Steelers correct?

Yes and yes...

aj.
03-24-2005, 08:47 PM
Yes, but the Texans do not zone blitz by the textbook definition - meaning they don't drop the DLs into short zone coverages while the LBs shoot the space vacated by the DL or elsewhere.

wags
03-24-2005, 08:49 PM
Yes, but the Texans do not zone blitz by the textbook definition - meaning they don't drop the DLs into short zone coverages while the LBs shoot the space vacated by the DL or elsewhere.

Any particular reason they don't zone blitz?

aj.
03-24-2005, 08:54 PM
(3) 320 lb. two-gap DLs across the front would be my guess.

wags
03-24-2005, 09:03 PM
(3) 320 lb. two-gap DLs across the front would be my guess.

The Steelers DE are only 300 lbs, so I guess they are a little more athletic than ours. idonno: I would say the same for their LB core. They seem to be more athletic than us across the board on D. Except for CB.

aj.
03-25-2005, 06:30 AM
Getting back to my original point (which has nothing to do with zone blitz), by design the Steelers DLs play more one-gap attack than the Texans DLs which could be one of the reasons you see a guy like Aaron Smith leading them in sacks.