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View Full Version : If your Kubes how do you fix the secondary, realistically.


Big Lou
09-29-2010, 12:20 AM
OK, the secondary seems to suck (understatement of the year), especially with zero pass rush.

Before I go any further let me start with two words, Troy Nolan. This is obvious, Wilson has to go.

However what can be done with the rest of the guys realistically?

Some of it seems to be the cover two scheme, but does the roster fit another scheme? Is it all scheme, or all personell?

Should KJ be benched, and GQ, and Brice be the starters?

Where do Molden, and Mcmanis fit in at this point?

What are the odds Frank Bush pulls a rabbit out of his hat in week four until week 17 like he did last year with the pass the way he did the run?



Is there an outside chance that this was a fluke three weeks?

-Manning was excusable, Indy was behind the entire game and after all it was the Forehead playing....
-McNabb is a little more troubling as I think he's past his prime, and his recievers could keep the Skins under the Cap if there were one because part of their salary is from Social Freaking Security!!! This one hurts.
-Romo is somewhat understandable because he can put up big numbers at times, and he has a tone of weapons. What bothers me is they played horrible until they showed up at Reliant, and Roy Williams looked like a #1 WR for once.



I think we will learn a lot this week. The Raiders are running the ball well, so if we stop the run we could get exposed in the passing game. If Gradkowski puts 300 yards up, it may be time to panic! If we stiflle the run and the pass, maybe, just maybe it was a fluke to be that bad defending the pass for three straight games. Obviousley it won't be definative if we contain the Oakland passing attach, but at least it will be encouraging that we can stop something or someone. Otherwise we should just count on the Fed Ex Air Award to go to who ever plays the Texans each week.


Just wanted to verbalize all my thoughts. I know I have not provided any meanigful insight, but perhaps I'm playing the Watson to someones Holmes.....


By the way can we get a Frank Bush and/or David Gibbs face palm smiley?????


Edit: yes I know it should be "you're" in the title thread sorry.....

Mari-OWNED!
09-29-2010, 12:35 AM
I would keep starting Kareem Jackson and Glover Quin at corner. I truly believe they both just need more experience, and the growing pains are what I expected, and most fans are just too impatient.

I like Troy Nolan, and would probably have him split time with Eugene Wilson just to see how he compares.

I'd also test out Molden in certain situations to see how he compares as well.

Hervoyel
09-29-2010, 12:43 AM
Kareem & Glover until the sun burns out. Sit Wilson and throw Nolan in there for a while. Possibly he takes off and keeps the job. Maybe it just motivates Wilson to play harder and smarter.

I think if you (meaning Gary, Frank, and Rick) are sure beyond a doubt that Kareem and Glover are your guys then you have to play them as long as it takes, barring a complete collapse in the secondary. If you aren't sure that they're your guys then why in the hell are we in the season without any reasonable alternatives?

I'd also start trying to work Molden into the mix to see if there's any good reason to keep him past this season.

TexCanada
09-29-2010, 12:44 AM
I think something needs to be done with Molden. He has all this potential and yet we never see him on the field, mainly due to injuries. I'm tired of him wasting a roster spot without really contributing much. Maybe he does more then I actually notice, but I would like to see him get thrown in there, see what he can do, and then make a decision on him.

Wolf6151
09-29-2010, 12:53 AM
I've been thinking that we might want to start Pollard and Cushing at the CB spots. I'd tell them to knock the shit out of the WR at the LOS. A WR can't run a route if he's laying on the ground trying to remember his name.

NitroGSXR
09-29-2010, 12:56 AM
You fix the secondary by firing Bob McNair.

thunderkyss
09-29-2010, 01:00 AM
OK, the secondary seems to suck (understatement of the year), especially with zero pass rush.

Before I go any further let me start with two words, Troy Nolan. This is obvious, Wilson has to go.

However what can be done with the rest of the guys realistically?


Realistically, I'd keep doing what we're doing. Looked like more Nickle, & we gave up less than 300 yards passing. 36% on third down. Miles Austin 2 catches for 20 yards. So there is some good stuff happening here, some good to work with.

GQ is our best corner. Keep him on the 1s.
KJ only made a few mistakes work on those, keep throwing him out there.
Molden.... activate him. McCain is a fine corner, Dallas' receivers are too big, too physical. Molden should have been in the game period.

I'd also think about using 6 DBs at times. Bring both Barber & Pollard in the box, Drop Molden & Nolan as my safeties.

GP
09-29-2010, 01:12 AM
Cushing and Ryans at the LB spots.

Use the open spot for a nickel d-back: Make Jackson the nickel back in that scenario, slide in McCain at the CB spot that Jackson vacates.

I think KJ needs to get some confidence, and putting him out there by himself is not exactly working well for us right now. You let him play nickel so that he can basically get in on plays and ballhawk. That's what he does well. But he can't do that, IMO, because he's freaking out and overthinking things to the point that he doesn't want to try and "play"...he seems, to me, to want to stay safe and try to not get burned.

Pollard stays at Strong Safety, but Eugene needs to sit some plays out. At this point, Frank Bush has gotta' make an impression and change up the Free Safety duties...for the sake of the team's psyche. Those other guys are busting their butts in camp and in preseason for two reasons: Payday and playday. You have to let some of those other guys get their shots at this point. You never know who just might step up and deliver.

That's my big gripe about the Kubiak-led Texans. He's always wayyyyy too slow to demand a HUGE change in the depth chart. There's like this magical 3-game window with Kubiak, whereby you're going to see the same lineup for the first three games come Hell or high water.

I mean, good grief! Make a change. Make a change every other possession until you find a guy who wants to win that spot and make plays. Show them that anybody can get a shot if they just loosen up and play, instead of having the paralysis by analysis (thinking instead of reacting).

GP
09-29-2010, 01:19 AM
I'd also think about using 6 DBs at times. Bring both Barber & Pollard in the box, Drop Molden & Nolan as my safeties.

So does that mean we go with a 3-man defensive line?

Mario, Smith, and Amobi.

Cushing and Ryans.

And the 6 DB formation you mentioned? That totals 11.

3-2-6 (using Cushing and Ryans more in the role of extra d-linemen, to thwart the run and cover the stuff that slips by the 3 linemen.). That would mean we could effectively use DBs to double-team two of a team's receivers, leaving two safeties to roam and cover, too. Or only double ONE of the receivers, and use zone or man on the others. Man, we could double the TE with a couple of those DBs and really allow Cushing and Ryans to make hay out there (since they wouldn't have to shadow the TE and potentially get outran).

Seems like an exotic lineup that might really throw a wrench in the opposing team's passing game. You could keep lots of stuff, such as draw plays and slants IN FRONT OF YOU--big time--if we went to that sort of lineup.

silvrhand
09-29-2010, 07:43 AM
You know how you help a young secondary.. GET PRESSURE on the QB, I don't care if you have to take your helmet off and throw it at the QB, get him uncomfortable, find a way to hit him and get his timing off period..

silvrhand
09-29-2010, 07:43 AM
Seems like an exotic lineup that might really throw a wrench in the opposing team's passing game. You could keep lots of stuff, such as draw plays and slants IN FRONT OF YOU--big time--if we went to that sort of lineup.

Just seems like an exotic way to keep the QB back there all day passing.. 3 man fronts are not going to get pressure on the QB..

TheRealJoker
09-29-2010, 07:55 AM
Now that Barwin is out it means if Mario has an off day (like last week), QBs are gonna have ample time to throw the ball... until Cushing returns.

Koolaid Time
09-29-2010, 07:58 AM
As suggested in the other thread, use Slayton as trade bait with Green Bay.

TimeKiller
09-29-2010, 09:07 AM
Step 1. Sit Wilson down.
Step 2. McCain is the new FS, his speed will allow the defense to have it's centerfielder. Help will be "over the top" and not "to the side 15 yards away".
Step 3. Nolan/Barber tag in for Pollard in 3rd/long.
Step 4. Molden/McMannis/Wall battle it out for nickelback. If Molden gets hurt he gets cut.
Step 5. Keep corners within 5 yards of the LOS at all times. Safeties within 30 :rolleyes:
Step 6. Knock the piss outta somebody!!!

nero THE zero
09-29-2010, 09:38 AM
Ideally, you (1) make a trade for a starting CB and (2) move Quin to FS.

Realistically, you probably replace Wilson with Barber and/or Nolan and give Molden some more playing time.

What I found interesting was that they opted to sign Paymah over bringing Reeves back in. Maybe Paymah can provide some return.

thunderkyss
09-29-2010, 09:43 AM
So does that mean we go with a 3-man defensive line?

Mario, Smith, and Amobi.

Cushing and Ryans.

And the 6 DB formation you mentioned? That totals 11.

3-2-6 (using Cushing and Ryans more in the role of extra d-linemen, to thwart the run and cover the stuff that slips by the 3 linemen.). That would mean we could effectively use DBs to double-team two of a team's receivers, leaving two safeties to roam and cover, too. Or only double ONE of the receivers, and use zone or man on the others. Man, we could double the TE with a couple of those DBs and really allow Cushing and Ryans to make hay out there (since they wouldn't have to shadow the TE and potentially get outran).

Seems like an exotic lineup that might really throw a wrench in the opposing team's passing game. You could keep lots of stuff, such as draw plays and slants IN FRONT OF YOU--big time--if we went to that sort of lineup.

Wow, you put more thought into than I did. That sounds interesting to me.

I was thinking more for the next game against Oakland only. Cushing is out & our LBs can't cover. I would keep the 4 man front, Demeco at MLB. Barber & Pollard would play as undersized LBs who cover better than our LBs. Quin is still on the one. KJ is on the twos. Molden (because of his size) is our SS, Nolan is our FS.

Pollard would stay at or around the line, Barber, Nolan, & Molden would really be interchangeable.

thunderkyss
09-29-2010, 09:45 AM
Just seems like an exotic way to keep the QB back there all day passing.. 3 man fronts are not going to get pressure on the QB..

In his scenario, Cushing & Ryans would play OLB.. it would be like a 3-4, with Pollard & Barber on the inside.

silvrhand
09-29-2010, 09:57 AM
In his scenario, Cushing & Ryans would play OLB.. it would be like a 3-4, with Pollard & Barber on the inside.

Still would not think that allows us to get any pressure, we just aren't an exotic blitz package team... What I would pay for an attacking defense, such as the steelers..

GP
09-29-2010, 10:06 AM
Just seems like an exotic way to keep the QB back there all day passing.. 3 man fronts are not going to get pressure on the QB..

Not if you have two LBers coming on delayed blitzes. You could blitz one LB and keep the other LB shadowing the RB. You could sit both them at the snap, then let them come free on a double blitz right through a gap in the defensive line. You could drop Cushing at the snap and bring Ryans AND Pollard on a blitz. I think it could be VERY exotic.

This sort of lineup would be brutal on the two LBers, asking them to take on offensive linemen on a regular basis...having to sift through the blockers to contain a run up the middle or to the edge.

The emphasis is to have more of the field covered by DBs, reducing the voids where a WR can sit down and catch those slants or other quick pass routes. You're going to have Pollard hammering anything that gets thrown just past the LBers. And you have the two LBers in that same area, prepared to take out the short stuff too.

Essentially, we'd be using Pollard as a LB since he likes to hit people violently...but he has better mobility and better coverage skills than a LB, too, so it gives us a chance if passes are not on target or get deflected.

Let's face it though, we're not going to see anything radically different out there. This defense doesn't look the same as it did last year.

Maybe Okoye is more valuable to what we do than I realize. We had Okoye, Cushing, and Duane Brown out vs. the Cowboys. That's three players who bring value to the table on game day. And no Barwin.

Trenches, man. Trenches.

If we can't get a pass rush on the QB, you gotta' go with something else to compensate for it. Making the QB hesitate and cycle through his progressions for too long, IMO, would allow our linemen and LBers to get to the QB. If they can't get there, we're going to make the WR or RB pay dearly because we'll enough men to lay a solid hit on the guy just as he catches the ball.

YAC is killing this defense right now.

silvrhand
09-29-2010, 10:09 AM
We have never been near the middle or the top in the league on front 7 pressure, until that changes our defense is not going to get better IMHO. It's like having a bad offensive line and watching what happens to your running/passing game..



Maybe Okoye is more valuable to what we do than I realize. We had Okoye, Cushing, and Duane Brown out vs. the Cowboys. That's three players who bring value to the table on game day. And no Barwin.

Trenches, man. Trenches.

GP
09-29-2010, 10:15 AM
Even with a 3-man front, that opposing QB (if he sees 8 defensive guys buzzing around the areas he wants to throw the ball to) is going to pull the ball down, dance around, hesitate due to the 8 guys covering those voids, and eventually the offensive linemen are going to lose contain and/or have to hold a d-linemen as the play gets strung out.

Offensive linemen can't hold their ground forever. At some point, they lose a sense of understanding in terms of where the QB is and which way to move to protect him.

A smart d-linemen would fake out the blocker by moving to the right, as if the QB were moving that way on a scramble, then cut back to the left (sharply) where the QB actually is standing/scrambling.

What I see right now, more than anything else, is this defense reading and reacting instead of playing on instinct. Sure, the draw play is supposedly taking advantage of us racing upfield toward the QB...but I am not so sure I buy that. I fault the LBers for not lending support (they seem to be playing zone or something, instead of disrupting plays at the very beginning).

badboy
09-29-2010, 10:22 AM
I think something needs to be done with Molden. He has all this potential and yet we never see him on the field, mainly due to injuries. I'm tired of him wasting a roster spot without really contributing much. Maybe he does more then I actually notice, but I would like to see him get thrown in there, see what he can do, and then make a decision on him.Hopefully we can jump on Raiders quickly and move Molden in and evaluate him. We need this game as a W.

DexmanC
09-29-2010, 10:23 AM
Step 1. Sit Wilson down.
Step 2. McCain is the new FS, his speed will allow the defense to have it's centerfielder. Help will be "over the top" and not "to the side 15 yards away".
Step 3. Nolan/Barber tag in for Pollard in 3rd/long.
Step 4. Molden/McMannis/Wall battle it out for nickelback. If Molden gets hurt he gets cut.
Step 5. Keep corners within 5 yards of the LOS at all times. Safeties within 30 :rolleyes:
Step 6. Knock the piss outta somebody!!!

Looks like an excellent lineup on Madden, but in real life the nuances of
each position are extremely important.

GP
09-29-2010, 10:27 AM
It feels like, to me, that the three areas (D-Linemen, LBers, and DBs) are all playing independently of one another. As if they are three separate groups doing their own assignments and not knowing how the other two groups of players are doing things. Confusion and isolation, in other words.

We need that cohesiveness we had during the Cardinalspreseason game. Yes, I know: The Cardinals are not too terribly wonderful of an offense back when they had our now-3rd string QB Leinart. But we were flowing and on the same page in that game.

It has to get better.

DexmanC
09-29-2010, 10:33 AM
It feels like, to me, that the three areas (D-Linemen, LBers, and DBs) are all playing independently of one another.

This is what happened during the entire tenure of Richard Smith. This
defense has reverted back to its old tricks, and that's good for 27th
or 28th in the league if they keep it up.

thunderkyss
09-29-2010, 11:29 AM
We have never been near the middle or the top in the league on front 7 pressure, until that changes our defense is not going to get better IMHO. It's like having a bad offensive line and watching what happens to your running/passing game..

I think it's more a matter of degrees. I'd really like to know where you are getting that we haven't been "near the middle, or the top of the league" in pressures. I know we don't get the sacks, but I would bet we are close to the middle, if not over the middle in pressure from our front 4.

We were able to get enough pressure on the Cowboys to force them into 8 man protection. They don't do that for the heck of it.

We drop 6 or 7 men to cover 2 guys, and they still find an open spot. & it's not like Tony was buying time to do it. Three steps, & the ball was out.

We might not have the best 4 man rush in the league, but when it's that easy to find an open receiver, then the back end has got to do it's job.

silvrhand
09-29-2010, 11:48 AM
I think it's more a matter of degrees. I'd really like to know where you are getting that we haven't been "near the middle, or the top of the league" in pressures. I know we don't get the sacks, but I would bet we are close to the middle, if not over the middle in pressure from our front 4.

We were able to get enough pressure on the Cowboys to force them into 8 man protection. They don't do that for the heck of it.



I disagree, they kept max protect cause the cowboys have been having protection problems all year long.

BigBull17
09-29-2010, 12:00 PM
Ideally, you (1) make a trade for a starting CB and (2) move Quin to FS.

Realistically, you probably replace Wilson with Barber and/or Nolan and give Molden some more playing time.

What I found interesting was that they opted to sign Paymah over bringing Reeves back in. Maybe Paymah can provide some return.

Quinn has been our best CB, so moving him makes no real sense.

Step 1. Sit Wilson down.
Step 2. McCain is the new FS, his speed will allow the defense to have it's centerfielder. Help will be "over the top" and not "to the side 15 yards away".
Step 3. Nolan/Barber tag in for Pollard in 3rd/long.
Step 4. Molden/McMannis/Wall battle it out for nickelback. If Molden gets hurt he gets cut.
Step 5. Keep corners within 5 yards of the LOS at all times. Safeties within 30 :rolleyes:
Step 6. Knock the piss outta somebody!!!

McCain is way too small for FS.

TimeKiller
09-29-2010, 01:50 PM
Looks like an excellent lineup on Madden, but in real life the nuances of
each position are extremely important.


McCain is way too small for FS.

I'm just getting the best players on the field. I don't see how you could be worried about his tackling at FS but not at CB...

drs23
09-29-2010, 02:14 PM
Now that Barwin is out it means if Mario has an off day (like last week), QBs are gonna have ample time to throw the ball... until Cushing returns.

Sept. 18, 2007

Joker, that is indeed a really long time. I sure hope this is our (and your) year. That GWB gotta be up there by now!

BigBull17
09-29-2010, 02:17 PM
I'm just getting the best players on the field. I don't see how you could be worried about his tackling at FS but not at CB...

I just think it is a durability thing. McCain is a little bit too small, IMO. Moulden or McMannins would be better at FS.

HOU-TEX
09-29-2010, 02:23 PM
Re: If your Kubes how do you fix the secondary, realistically.

Duct tape and bailing wire

drewmar74
09-29-2010, 02:27 PM
Duct tape and bailing wire

Dunno, man. I usually roll with zip ties and, where applicable, hose clamps.

I am not going to sit here and pontificate on how he should fix the secondary. I'm not a coach, former player, current player, or GM. I'm just a guy. But I'm also a guy that can look at our secondary's play to date and come to the conclusion that "Wow - we suck."

Now, that said, what I find disheartening is the resistance to change the Gary seems to exhibit.... the secondary isn't playing well as it stands now but I bet we don't see any big changes anytime soon. That doesn't seem to be Kubes' MO. Maybe he doesn't feel like he has better options than what is back there now. Maybe he thinks that the players back there need more time. Maybe he's loyal to a damn fault. I don't know the answer.

I do know that the secondary play hasn't improved in three weeks. I keep going back to Einstein's definition of insanity when I think of Kubes' style - "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

This ain't working, Gary. Throw us a curve and start tweaking something.

TimeKiller
09-29-2010, 04:26 PM
I just think it is a durability thing. McCain is a little bit too small, IMO. Molden or McMannins would be better at FS.

Yeah right. Dude has received more attention for doing nothing than anyone ever, ever, ever.

DexmanC
09-29-2010, 04:31 PM
Yeah right. Dude has received more attention for doing nothing than anyone ever, ever, ever.

Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

leebigeztx
09-29-2010, 06:07 PM
I wouldnt have never gone into a playoff type season with all my corners with 2 yrs or less experience. They couldve had cromartie for a 5th or sheldon brown for nothing or even ken lucas as a cheap free agent. Not to mention releasing reeves to keep molden. I also thought they should have moved bennett to free safety.

Rey
09-29-2010, 06:21 PM
Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

No.

Molden has actually played.

Rey
09-29-2010, 06:23 PM
Fix the secondary:

Find a better FS than Wilson be it Barber or Nolan.

Kareem gets more experience.

Insert Cushing.

Continue to get good pressure on opposing QB's.

That's pretty much all I'd do.

Texan4Ever
09-29-2010, 06:24 PM
Switch to a 3-3-5 defense, duh! Or we can use Pollard as a "bandit"-backer similar to what Texas Tech does.

:sarcasm:

HTown2ATX
09-30-2010, 11:43 AM
Kareem & Glover until the sun burns out. Sit Wilson and throw Nolan in there for a while. Possibly he takes off and keeps the job. Maybe it just motivates Wilson to play harder and smarter.

I think if you (meaning Gary, Frank, and Rick) are sure beyond a doubt that Kareem and Glover are your guys then you have to play them as long as it takes, barring a complete collapse in the secondary. If you aren't sure that they're your guys then why in the hell are we in the season without any reasonable alternatives?

I'd also start trying to work Molden into the mix to see if there's any good reason to keep him past this season.

I agree they need more time to develop even though on Sundays they having me doing this :facepalm: or :gun: more than this :breakdance:

But how many pieces of toast do they have to be before we consider it a "complete collapse". Half a loaf (6 games) or a whole loaf (8+)?

HTown2ATX
09-30-2010, 11:45 AM
Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

:backsout:

That's a low blow man.....;)

DexmanC
09-30-2010, 01:59 PM
Molden is the Boselli of cornerbacks.

No.

Molden has actually played.

Ok. Molden is the Mark Prior of cornerbacks.

Raf
09-30-2010, 04:12 PM
Put KJ on his natural side, the right. Worth a shot....just try it.

DexmanC
09-30-2010, 05:07 PM
Put KJ on his natural side, the right. Worth a shot....just try it.

The right side is where the #2 receiver usually lines up. They want KJ
on the opponent's best receiver.

Raf
09-30-2010, 05:12 PM
The right side is where the #2 receiver usually lines up. They want KJ
on the opponent's best receiver.

You sure about that? I thought Quinn's our #1 and thus covers the #1 and K.J. our #2 and therefore covers the #2. Quinn lines up right, K.J. left.

Offense's right side is our defense's left. Offense's left side is our D's right side.

drewmar74
09-30-2010, 05:19 PM
You sure about that? I thought Quinn's our #1 and thus covers the #1 and K.J. our #2 and therefore covers the #2. Quinn lines up right, K.J. left.

Offense's right side is our defense's left. Offense's left side is our D's right side.

For what its worth, I remember reading somewhere that KJ was playing on the opposite side from what he was used to in college so that backs up where Raf was going, methinks.

I'll see if I can dig up the source.

"But Savage also identified a few factors that might have been overlooked. First, Jackson primarily manned the right side in college, taking away the quarterback's primary option. With the Texans, he's had to adjust to playing on the left side."

link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7222804.html)

Texan4Ever
09-30-2010, 05:31 PM
The best thing Kubiak can do to help his young defensive secondary out is to get more pressure on the QB. Aside from Mario, no one seems to be able to bring the QB down and seriously bang him up. We start hitting the QB and he's gonna make mistakes in the passing game, which hopefully the young CBs can take advantage of.

Another thing we can do is that, if our defensive line can keep the linemen from getting to the second level, we could have an OLB who can cover basically fall back into coverage and have the safeties up top help the corners as they backpedal.

Something like this perhaps:

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tampa-2-pic.jpg

drewmar74
09-30-2010, 05:36 PM
http://www.nfltouchdown.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tampa-2-pic.jpg

Okay, I'll bite. If you're doing that, doesn't that set you up for the draw play similar to what Dallas did to us?

Texan4Ever
09-30-2010, 06:11 PM
Okay, I'll bite. If you're doing that, doesn't that set you up for the draw play similar to what Dallas did to us?

It would but what I would do is have DeMeco Ryans stand across from the center behind our DT and scan the offense. He is a solid tackler so I wouldn't mind dropping our two OLBs and the DBs into coverage while leaving him on his own to make the tackle. Also, I would have our d-line clog up all the gaps to prevent any attempts to run through the guards and force the RB to the outside and hope that our defense can react quickly and cover the RB up.

We could also give the 4-2-5 defensive formation a try once Brian Cushing comes back. Have Pollard become a third linebacker who drops into medium coverage when needed.

Rey
09-30-2010, 06:53 PM
The right side is where the #2 receiver usually lines up. They want KJ
on the opponent's best receiver.

Honestly, every time I've see him get Kjax get handled it's been by a number two or three receiver.

I mostly see GQ on the other teams #1.

Rey
09-30-2010, 06:55 PM
The best thing Kubiak can do to help his young defensive secondary out is to get more pressure on the QB. Aside from Mario, no one seems to be able to bring the QB down and seriously bang him up. We start hitting the QB and he's gonna make mistakes in the passing game, which hopefully the young CBs can take advantage of.

Another thing we can do is that, if our defensive line can keep the linemen from getting to the second level, we could have an OLB who can cover basically fall back into coverage and have the safeties up top help the corners as they backpedal.

Something like this perhaps:

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tampa-2-pic.jpg


I'm pretty sure the Texans have a 3 deep coverage like that... Although I doubt they do it much out of their base defense.

And I don't want Demeco covering the deep middle. That has disaster written all over it.

thunderkyss
09-30-2010, 06:56 PM
It would but what I would do is have DeMeco Ryans stand across from the center behind our DT and scan the offense. He is a solid tackler so I wouldn't mind dropping our two OLBs and the DBs into coverage while leaving him on his own to make the tackle. Also, I would have our d-line clog up all the gaps to prevent any attempts to run through the guards and force the RB to the outside and hope that our defense can react quickly and cover the RB up.

I hear what you are saying. But I believe it's well documented that our LBs disappear in coverage. I don't trust any of them (save Cushing) to be a factor in pass defense.

So I'm not disagreeing with you. Yes our LB need to be able to drop back in coverage. But truthfully outside of Roy Williams on three plays, it wasn't their receivers hurting us.


One bad play against Roy Williams 63 yards. Take that away (assuming that KJ will going to get better) Roy has 4 catches for 54 yards. Dez Bryant 4 for 50. Miles Austin 2 for 20. 1 catch 10 yards to hurd.

11 catches for 142 yards, 1 Touchdown (remember we're taking away that play where KJ falls down). Not bad.

Rey
09-30-2010, 07:00 PM
We could also give the 4-2-5 defensive formation a try once Brian Cushing comes back. Have Pollard become a third linebacker who drops into medium coverage when needed.


We have always run a 4-2-5....Can't remember a time when we haven't run it since we've switched to the 4-3. When we bring McCain in and put GQ in the nickel spot, that is the defense we are running...

thunderkyss
09-30-2010, 07:03 PM
11 catches for 142 yards, 1 Touchdown (remember we're taking away that play where KJ falls down). Not bad.

To put it in perspective, the best pass defense, so far (the Baltimore Ravens), gave up 143 yards to OchoCinco, T.O. & Jordan Shipley (12 catches).

Texan4Ever
09-30-2010, 07:20 PM
I hear what you are saying. But I believe it's well documented that our LBs disappear in coverage. I don't trust any of them (save Cushing) to be a factor in pass defense.

So I'm not disagreeing with you. Yes our LB need to be able to drop back in coverage. But truthfully outside of Roy Williams on three plays, it wasn't their receivers hurting us.


One bad play against Roy Williams 63 yards. Take that away (assuming that KJ will going to get better) Roy has 4 catches for 54 yards. Dez Bryant 4 for 50. Miles Austin 2 for 20. 1 catch 10 yards to hurd.

11 catches for 142 yards, 1 Touchdown (remember we're taking away that play where KJ falls down). Not bad.


I agree with you. Maybe our defensive secondary can improve as the season goes on. Heck, if the Colts can make it to and win the SB with a poor run defense, why can't we at least make it to the playoffs with a weak pass defense?

awtysst
09-30-2010, 07:24 PM
Cushing and Ryans at the LB spots.

Use the open spot for a nickel d-back: Make Jackson the nickel back in that scenario, slide in McCain at the CB spot that Jackson vacates.

I think KJ needs to get some confidence, and putting him out there by himself is not exactly working well for us right now. You let him play nickel so that he can basically get in on plays and ballhawk. That's what he does well. But he can't do that, IMO, because he's freaking out and overthinking things to the point that he doesn't want to try and "play"...he seems, to me, to want to stay safe and try to not get burned.

Pollard stays at Strong Safety, but Eugene needs to sit some plays out. At this point, Frank Bush has gotta' make an impression and change up the Free Safety duties...for the sake of the team's psyche. Those other guys are busting their butts in camp and in preseason for two reasons: Payday and playday. You have to let some of those other guys get their shots at this point. You never know who just might step up and deliver.

I agree with everything you say except with Pollard. Pollard is a great run stopper but cannot cover at all. On obvious passing plays I would put him in the middle of the D and slide Molden at Safety opposite Nolan.


Our D on obvious passing plays would be:

Mario, Smith, Okoye

Cushing, Pollard Ryans

Quin, Jackson McCain

Nolan Molden


This D brings pressure from the 3 man front of Mario, Smith, and Okoye. It puts Pollard between Cushing and Ryans. The theory is, he cannot cover, but he can tackle. If a pass is thrown there he wraps the the receiver or knocks the tar out of them short of the first down marker. He is protected by Meco and Cush. Quin and McCain play CB and Jackson patrols the middle, behind Pollard. Nolan and Molden act as dual speedy FS since this is 3rd and long and we need speed and covering ability in this situation.

drs23
09-30-2010, 07:26 PM
I agree with you. Maybe our defensive secondary can improve as the season goes on. Heck, if the Colts can make it to and win the SB with a poor run defense, why can't we at least make it to the playoffs with a weak pass defense?

I'm thinking because this is a pass happy league now with the way the rules are slanted in favor of the receiver. Of coarse, it works in our favor as well when our passing game looks as sharp as it has in the past. I'm sure it will turn around.

Texan4Ever
09-30-2010, 07:38 PM
I'm thinking because this is a pass happy league now with the way the rules are slanted in favor of the receiver. Of coarse, it works in our favor as well when our passing game looks as sharp as it has in the past. I'm sure it will turn around.



I hope so as well. IMO, I have been too hard on our young CBs. Its a tough position to play as I know this from personal experience. Hopefully, once Kareem Jackson and Glover Quinn get more reps in (and facing AJ in practice shouldn't hurt), they should be able to make substantial progress by the end of the season (which should be in the playoffs and maybe beyond).

thunderkyss
09-30-2010, 07:45 PM
I agree with you. Maybe our defensive secondary can improve as the season goes on. Heck, if the Colts can make it to and win the SB with a poor run defense, why can't we at least make it to the playoffs with a weak pass defense?

I think you've misunderstood me. The Dallas game is evidence of our DBs getting better.

They've gone from giving up over 400 yards passing to less than 3. Not stellar, but better.

Marcus
10-01-2010, 03:15 AM
Trenches, man. Trenches.

If we can't get a pass rush on the QB, you gotta' go with something else to compensate for it.

If you really want to be realistic, accept the fact that there is really nothing you can do to compensate for the lack of a pass rush.

Relating to the title of this thread, if you want to "fix" the secondary, you have ro get a pass rush.

Trenches, man. Trenches.

JB
10-01-2010, 09:31 AM
If you really want to be realistic, accept the fact that there is really nothing you can do to compensate for the lack of a pass rush.

Relating to the title of this thread, if you want to "fix" the secondary, you have ro get a pass rush.

Trenches, man. Trenches.

Pass Rush ain't gonna do shit if the QB can get the ball out in under 3 seconds.

barrett
10-01-2010, 03:38 PM
Pass Rush ain't gonna do shit if the QB can get the ball out in under 3 seconds.

If I remember correctly, that was Peyton Manning's game plan and we didn't seem to have any problem with the final outcome of that contest.

JB
10-01-2010, 03:51 PM
If I remember correctly, that was Peyton Manning's game plan and we didn't seem to have any problem with the final outcome of that contest.

Because our offense won that game. Manning threw for over 400 yds on us.

thunderkyss
10-01-2010, 06:51 PM
Because our offense won that game. Manning threw for over 400 yds on us.

But it weren't for a lack of a pass rush. BSPN & NFLNetwork were going gaga over themselves because Manning was able to do that in a game where he got hit more than any other game before.

hradhak
10-01-2010, 07:06 PM
The Cowboys were able to take away our 3 second dropbacks by covering the passing lanes. I think that is partly on our linebackers as much as it is the secondary.

Good secondaries can give the pass rush time to get after the QB. Right now we can't cover for 3 seconds, much less 5 or so seconds that the pass rush needs to get after the QB.

It's going to be interesting to see how good the secondary is (or isn't) against an average QB

Corrosion
10-02-2010, 07:54 PM
The Cowboys were able to take away our 3 second dropbacks by covering the passing lanes. I think that is partly on our linebackers as much as it is the secondary.

Good secondaries can give the pass rush time to get after the QB. Right now we can't cover for 3 seconds, much less 5 or so seconds that the pass rush needs to get after the QB.

It's going to be interesting to see how good the secondary is (or isn't) against an average QB

Those are very good points .... on both sides of the ball.


When the Texans have played zone there are two places that teams have gone consistantly those being in front of the LB's and over the top of the CB in front of the safety's.

Couple things I'd like to point out in defense of the Texans secondary -

1) Against the Dolts , they had a lead the entire game. The Dolts got next to nothing on the ground and were forced to throw. Many of the yards they gave up were in the 4th quarter when Peymeaton had little choice but to throw on every down and the Texans were in a deep zone. You expect a team to pile on yards in that situation.

2) Against the Skins - After the first series , the Skins couldnt keep the ground game going. They were pretty much forced to throw the ball for the majority of the game. Up three scores with a quarter to play you dont throw the ball you line up and run it and take time off of the clock. They couldnt do that and it cost them a W.
Over 120 of the 400+ yards given up thru the air was on two plays - I cant defend those plays but again , McNabb threw the ball 50+ times. You expect to see big yards under those circumstances.
Also , the Skins had a very solid gameplan that took advantage of the Texans LB's and DE's aggressiveness. Gotta give them credit for that .

3) Against Dallas again after the opening series of misdirection and scripted plays the Texans defense stopped the running game for the most part. If you cant run the ball ... You have no choice but to throw it.
Romo didnt turn the ball over and had a good completion percentage but he didnt have a stellar game either. They couldnt run the ball and were again forced to throw.
Take away a 63 yard TD on a play that should have been a short gain Dallas would end up with 221 passing yards which is respectable.
The Texans simply made too many mistakes on offense and the Cowpies took advantage converting turnovers into points.

Im not sold that Barber is the answer at FS although he cant play much worse than Wilson has thus far. I would prefer to see Nolan on obvious passing downs.

I think that the injury to Barwin is a bigger deal than many realize as the pass rush hasnt been the same since he went down.


To sum it up , I dont think the Texans pass defense is as bad as it has looked so far. They have made some mistakes and the opponents have cashed in.
Their ability to stop the run is going to force a lot of teams to throw the ball and inflate some numbers especially if they are playing with a lead.

I'll take W's while giving up yardage ..... but I do expect to see them get better as the season wears on , considerably so once Cushing returns.

TexCanada
10-04-2010, 12:24 AM
Our secondary was much improved this afternoon. The main issue with our pass D was that our linebackers couldn't cover whatsoever. Cush should help with this, but it was a real problem. Great win though.

Corrosion
10-04-2010, 06:06 AM
While the Raiders Backs and TE piled up impresive numbers recieving the Texans held the Raiders WR's to a total of 4 catches for 45 yards.

TE Z.Miller had 11 for 122 and a TD

RB D.McFadden had 6 for 82

No other player had more than two receptions or over 38 yards.


The back end did its job for the most part in this game , sure the Raiders WR's suck but I'll take that and the W ..... and look forward to the Giants next week.

:chickendance:

thunderkyss
10-04-2010, 09:25 AM
Our secondary was much improved this afternoon. The main issue with our pass D was that our linebackers couldn't cover whatsoever. Cush should help with this, but it was a real problem. Great win though.

That's really the way it's been. Even in earlier games when WRs got some big yards,

Indy: Collie for 117 (??) Wayne for (99)
Washington: Santana Moss 150 (??)
Dallas: RoyW 160 (??), Dez Bryant 50, Austin 20

Alot of those yards were given up to zone plays, after the WR already passed the receiver off to the safeties, behind the LBs.

There have only been a few mistakes made (bad play) from the Corners, biting on the play action/reverse ( a double misdirection play) against Washington that led to Galloway's only real catch of the game. Not being able to shed blockers to tackle Santana Moss on a bubble screen (which KJ stopped in the backfield, the second time they tried it), The fall down by KJ against Dallas.

I think our young corners are playing well, and I expected a few mistakes. I also expect those mistakes to happen less & less as the year goes on.

Antonio Smith got two sacks against Oakland, Demeco got 1 (a coverage sack at that) & Mario got one as well. If we can keep that up, with Cushing coming back next week our coverage issues may get covered up a little bit. If our LBs can continue to get into passing lanes, tip some balls, & we make the plays to secure the INTs (way to go Nolan) our secondary is going to make some noise.

El Tejano
10-04-2010, 11:19 AM
TE Z.Miller had 11 for 122 and a TD

:

I was beginning to wonder if Zac Diles was ever going to figure out that Zach Miller is not going to stay into block and will indeed be going out for a pass. Also that all of his catches are going to be out routes because The Raiders really want to get the ball in their RBs hands who they are throwing to over the middle.

El Tejano
10-04-2010, 01:43 PM
I'd like to add that Mario's turnover sack was a coverage sack.