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View Full Version : Time to replace Eugene.


Rey
09-27-2010, 06:50 PM
Was about to log off and shut down and saw the Roy Williams slant route TD on ESPN...

Eugen looked like he pulled up lame on that play...Either that or he wasn't trying...He was right there to make a tackle but instead he looked like a 90 something year old fence post.

Dude has not been around the ball much at all. And then when he is there he pulls up lame...Looked like a hammy...

Time to get some young fresh legs in there...It's not like we'd be at risk of giving up 400+ yards passing and multiple TDs through the air or anything...

I will start the Chant.."Start Troy Now...Start Troy Now"...

thunderkyss
09-27-2010, 06:54 PM
After that play, McCain proceeded to give him the business, Wilson didn't even turn around, he just walked to the bench, & never talked to anyone. He also didn't enter the game again.

drs23
09-27-2010, 06:57 PM
Was about to log off and shut down and saw the Roy Williams slant route TD on ESPN...

Eugen looked like he pulled up lame on that play...Either that or he wasn't trying...He was right there to make a tackle but instead he looked like a 90 something year old fence post.

Dude has not been around the ball much at all. And then when he is there he pulls up lame...Looked like a hammy...

Time to get some young fresh legs in there...It's not like we'd be at risk of giving up 400+ yards passing and multiple TDs through the air or anything...

I will start the Chant.."Start Troy Now...Start Troy Now"...

I've been on that wagon since PS. Whadda got to lose? Let me answer that. NADA. Start Troy NOW!

Carr Bombed
09-27-2010, 06:59 PM
The thing though is that according to Kubiak and Pollard, Dominique Barber is ahead of Troy Nolan and is the next guy off the bench if Eugene Wilson sits down.

Rey
09-27-2010, 07:03 PM
The thing though is that according to Kubiak and Pollard, Dominique Barber is ahead of Troy Nolan and is the next guy off the bench if Eugene Wilson sits down.

Well that's just too bad. That really sucks because Barber will maybe be worse than Wilson has been. I really didn't even think that was possible until you just made me remember Barber.

Well, hopefully they make that move because the way I see it is that the sooner Barber gets on the field the sooner Nolan gets on the field.

Rey
09-27-2010, 07:05 PM
After that play, McCain proceeded to give him the business, Wilson didn't even turn around, he just walked to the bench, & never talked to anyone. He also didn't enter the game again.

LMAO! McCain was giving him the business?!?!?!

Wilson had to have just given up then.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt thinking he had a hammy tighten up on him, but damn...if he gave up on that play when he could have made that tackle....that is the kind of stuff that makes me want you off my team.

devo-x
09-27-2010, 07:19 PM
According to http://www.houstontexans.com/team/depth-chart.html

Troy Nolan is the back to Eugene Wilson at FS

RTP2110
09-27-2010, 07:21 PM
Was about to log off and shut down and saw the Roy Williams slant route TD on ESPN...

Eugen looked like he pulled up lame on that play...Either that or he wasn't trying...He was right there to make a tackle but instead he looked like a 90 something year old fence post.

We'll never know what the play call was, but if you watch the start of that play Wilson breaks toward the line of scrimmage as if to cover any backs coming out of the backfield. Two Dallas players were flaring out to the flats, then suddenly stopped to block. when Wilson saw the backs blocking, he immediately went to help McCain with Williams because there was nobody else on that side of the field. By that time it was too late. Williams was already too far behind Wilson for him to catch up and help. But like I said, we'll never know what the call was and if Wilson blew a coverage or not.

The play starts at 1:45. Wilson's movements go hand in hand with the Dallas backfield.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010092608/2010/REG3/cowboys@texans#tab:watch

thunderkyss
09-27-2010, 07:32 PM
We'll never know what the play call was, but if you watch the start of that play Wilson breaks toward the line of scrimmage as if to cover any backs coming out of the backfield. Two Dallas players were flaring out to the flats, then suddenly stopped to block. when Wilson saw the backs blocking, he immediately went to help McCain with Williams because there was nobody else on that side of the field. By that time it was too late. Williams was already too far behind Wilson for him to catch up and help. But like I said, we'll never know what the call was and if Wilson blew a coverage or not.

The play starts at 1:45. Wilson's movements go hand in hand with the Dallas backfield.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010092608/2010/REG3/cowboys@texans#tab:watch
Nevermind, I was talking about the other one, where Kareem slipped.

Yankee_In_TX
09-27-2010, 07:38 PM
We'll never know what the play call was, but if you watch the start of that play Wilson breaks toward the line of scrimmage as if to cover any backs coming out of the backfield. Two Dallas players were flaring out to the flats, then suddenly stopped to block. when Wilson saw the backs blocking, he immediately went to help McCain with Williams because there was nobody else on that side of the field. By that time it was too late. Williams was already too far behind Wilson for him to catch up and help. But like I said, we'll never know what the call was and if Wilson blew a coverage or not.

The play starts at 1:45. Wilson's movements go hand in hand with the Dallas backfield.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010092608/2010/REG3/cowboys@texans#tab:watch

Kubes said on his 610 show today there was not supposed to be any help over the top - not sure if this play or the one where KJax fell.

RTP2110
09-27-2010, 07:39 PM
Nevermind, I was talking about the other one, where Kareem slipped.

I'll have to re-watch that one too. I really wasn't trying to defend Wilson, just pointing out an observation there.

Norg
09-27-2010, 07:44 PM
WHy they didnt help mcain and double team the #2 was crazy IMO

either way im with yall its over for wilson Bring in someone fresh and young

Yall didnt like are youth at CB well we are about to get young agian LOL at FS

Carr Bombed
09-27-2010, 07:46 PM
According to http://www.houstontexans.com/team/depth-chart.html

Troy Nolan is the back to Eugene Wilson at FS

But according to the head coach and Bernard Pollard, it's Dominique Barber.

hradhak
09-27-2010, 08:51 PM
On Kubiak's show on 610 today, Kubiak talked about giving Nolan and Barber more reps this week if Wilson is hurt. He said Nolan and Barber are about the same in his mind, but he'll decide who will play based on practice. He didn't really elaborate whether Wilson would start or if Nolan/Barber would see more play time.

Rey
09-27-2010, 09:48 PM
Nevermind, I was talking about the other one, where Kareem slipped.

Ummmm. . .me too. .

Don't know what play he's talking about.

I'm talking about the play where wilson stopped giving a shyyt.

Rey
09-27-2010, 09:54 PM
Kubes said on his 610 show today there was not supposed to be any help over the top - not sure if this play or the one where KJax fell.

I'm talking about the play where jackson slips.

I don't know if I missed it or if they didn't show it but during the game I didn't see the angle on that play that I saw on espn.

Either wilson pulled a hammy, or he quit on the play.

edo783
09-27-2010, 10:08 PM
Either wilson pulled a hammy, or he quit on the play.

Seems that both things happened.

Big Lou
09-27-2010, 10:55 PM
Was about to log off and shut down and saw the Roy Williams slant route TD on ESPN...

Eugen looked like he pulled up lame on that play...Either that or he wasn't trying...He was right there to make a tackle but instead he looked like a 90 something year old fence post.

Dude has not been around the ball much at all. And then when he is there he pulls up lame...Looked like a hammy...

Time to get some young fresh legs in there...It's not like we'd be at risk of giving up 400+ yards passing and multiple TDs through the air or anything...

I will start the Chant.."Start Troy Now...Start Troy Now"...


Except when it bounces off his hands!!!!!!

kiwitexansfan
09-27-2010, 11:39 PM
Given how Nolan shone in preseason and how AWFUL, PUTRID, DISGUSTING our pass defense is right now, I would make the switch right now.

Rey
09-28-2010, 11:39 AM
Given how Nolan shone in preseason and how AWFUL, PUTRID, DISGUSTING our pass defense is right now, I would make the switch right now.

Well from everything I'm hearing, Wilson is out with a hamstring issue and Barber is the starting FS right now.

I hope he does well.

devo-x
09-28-2010, 11:50 AM
Isn't Barber the backup to Pollard at SS?

Goldensilence
09-28-2010, 11:53 AM
Been on this for sometime. Glad to see some of the rest of the "Wilson is an adequate starter" crowd is catching up.

imo if the FO was going to let Dunta walk, which I'm glad they did, and they couldn't sign Bodden they should've looked for an upgrade at fs. They didn't. I think that was a mistake.

At this point we're left with Barber, who is probably better suited to be a SS and hope that Nolan is allowed to crack the lineup.

beerlover
09-28-2010, 11:59 AM
Was about to log off and shut down and saw the Roy Williams slant route TD on ESPN...

Eugen looked like he pulled up lame on that play...Either that or he wasn't trying...He was right there to make a tackle but instead he looked like a 90 something year old fence post.

Dude has not been around the ball much at all. And then when he is there he pulls up lame...Looked like a hammy...

Time to get some young fresh legs in there...It's not like we'd be at risk of giving up 400+ yards passing and multiple TDs through the air or anything...

I will start the Chant.."Start Troy Now...Start Troy Now"...

I beleive that is where Eugene tweeked his hamstring. only third game & he's already out, the others will get their shot don't worry. The Texans do have a sleeper on the practice squad not sure if he's elevated or not (would have to IR Wilson which seems extreem) but thats Pollards buddy & fellow Purdue Boilermaker Tori Williams http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster/Torri-Williams/783a8ed3-af59-4508-85f4-8ee8a887c4ac besides having the size, he has an excellent attitude, works hard & well with Bernard, could help special teams so you just never know? I've grown tired of the Barbers/Molden project hope I'm wrong.

Wolf6151
09-28-2010, 12:02 PM
Barber is better suited as a SS and not a very good one at that. Nolan should get the chance to play FS and show us what he can do but I wouldn't get my hopes up, I don't think he's our answer at the position either.

nero THE zero
09-28-2010, 12:03 PM
But according to the head coach and Bernard Pollard, it's Dominique Barber.

Do you have a link? On his weekly 610 show yesterday, Kubiak was asked if Nolan might replace Wilson given the injury (of course 610 didn't press him about Wilson's poor play), and Kubiak said that Nolan and Barber were interchangable and he didn't know which one would replace Wilson just yet.

Rey
09-28-2010, 12:11 PM
Do you have a link? On his weekly 610 show yesterday, Kubiak was asked if Nolan might replace Wilson given the injury (of course 610 didn't press him about Wilson's poor play), and Kubiak said that Nolan and Barber were interchangable and he didn't know which one would replace Wilson just yet.

That's good news.

Cush
09-28-2010, 12:19 PM
One of the only god things I've seen Eugene do this year was the hit on Fitz in the preseason.

Outside of that, I've only seen him make mistakes.

I wish we could see more of the coverage on TV to see all of the good things he does, but like everyone here has said -- We are getting torched anyway so why not let Troy take his shot.

Rey
09-28-2010, 12:29 PM
One of the only god things I've seen Eugene do this year was the hit on Fitz in the preseason.

Outside of that, I've only seen him make mistakes.

I wish we could see more of the coverage on TV to see all of the good things he does, but like everyone here has said -- We are getting torched anyway so why not let Troy take his shot.

I don't know what has been up with Wilson...Normally he is pretty solid...Last year (when he was healthy) he made a lot of plays on the ball. He was around those deep balls more.

This year, he has been pretty invisible. I don't know if it is the scheme or what, but he just seems slow out there and he's hardly around the ball...Then when he is he's either getting run smooth over by Joseph Adai, dropping pick six's or pulling up lame.

I just think he needs to sit on the bench a while. Re-gather himself and try to get better.

Rey
09-28-2010, 12:31 PM
I beleive that is where Eugene tweeked his hamstring. only third game & he's already out, the others will get their shot don't worry. The Texans do have a sleeper on the practice squad not sure if he's elevated or not (would have to IR Wilson which seems extreem) but thats Pollards buddy & fellow Purdue Boilermaker Tori Williams http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster/Torri-Williams/783a8ed3-af59-4508-85f4-8ee8a887c4ac besides having the size, he has an excellent attitude, works hard & well with Bernard, could help special teams so you just never know? I've grown tired of the Barbers/Molden project hope I'm wrong.

I have not seen a whole lot on Torri Williams..so I just don't know...

But at this point, someone has got to be able to make more plays than Wilson has..

Goldensilence
09-28-2010, 01:44 PM
I don't know what has been up with Wilson...Normally he is pretty solid...Last year (when he was healthy) he made a lot of plays on the ball. He was around those deep balls more.

This year, he has been pretty invisible. I don't know if it is the scheme or what, but he just seems slow out there and he's hardly around the ball...Then when he is he's either getting run smooth over by Joseph Adai, dropping pick six's or pulling up lame.

I just think he needs to sit on the bench a while. Re-gather himself and try to get better.

Dude is what he's always been. A middle of the road starter at best when healthy. I am not sure what he can do to "get better".

About then only thing I can say is that with such young starting corners and no LBer that has the speed or feel for coverage his duties likely changed.

Looks like we're seeing the real truth of the defensive turn around last year. Brian cushing's ability to rush the qb effectively and cover the middle of the field well. Then having pollard stabilize the ss spot.

The FO went young at cb without solving fs and they're paying for it.

thunderkyss
09-28-2010, 02:05 PM
Looks like we're seeing the real truth of the defensive turn around last year. Brian cushing's ability to rush the qb effectively and cover the middle of the field well. Then having pollard stabilize the ss spot.

The FO went young at cb without solving fs and they're paying for it.

No doubt Brian Cushing's impact on defense is huge. If he were here, the weakness at FS might not look so bad. If Eugene Wilson would play as well as he did last year, the "weakness" wouldn't look so bad.

I remember after the New Orleans pre-season game, someone mentioned the LBs were standing still after the snap & couldn't figure out why. Personally, I thought they were trying to learn play recognition, when to rush the line, and when to drop back.

There was such an "uproar" about how the Texans look, that the next game (Dallas) the focus became winning. I think that was a huge mistake.

Now Our LBs are having to learn in games that count. They are dropping back into coverage thinking it's a pass, when Barber doesn't advance out of the back to block.... hmmm...

VTexan
09-28-2010, 02:10 PM
Anyone opposed to sticking Dickerson at FS? :)

HOU-TEX
09-28-2010, 02:20 PM
I'm talking about the play where jackson slips.

I don't know if I missed it or if they didn't show it but during the game I didn't see the angle on that play that I saw on espn.

Either wilson pulled a hammy, or he quit on the play.

Kubiak stated Jackson was in a bump-man coverage. Which means he was on an island. He said the same of the McCain play.

KJax:
It was just an adjustment on their part and Kareem has got to make that play. He’s in bump-man. No, he’s not getting any help. He’s just got to lock him down and they’ve got a bad play. He gets out of whack. Roy is a big kid and threw him, got his body out of whack and it ends up being a home run. But no, he was not expecting any help.”

McCain:
(on if CB Kareem Jackson bit out on the out pattern on the 15-yard touchdown by Dallas on Sunday) “That was actually (CB) Brice (McCain). That was McCain. McCain is in man coverage there also, sitting on his outside shoulder. There’s help in the middle of the field, but there’s not help vertical. So he’s got to squeeze that route and make that play.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Monday-open-locker-room/dcc2e2e4-5e2c-4d42-b269-cf82484725a6

Rey
09-28-2010, 02:30 PM
Kubiak stated Jackson was in a bump-man coverage. Which means he was on an island. He said the same of the McCain play.

KJax:


McCain:


http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Monday-open-locker-room/dcc2e2e4-5e2c-4d42-b269-cf82484725a6


The Brice McCain play is not something that I hold against Wilson. I have not mentioned that play other than when others have brought it up. That play was on the humming bird, Brice McCain.

All I am talking about is Eugene Wilson being in position to keep Williams out of the endzone, but he pulled up lame. If you go back and watch the play from the cowboys offensive perspective you can see Wilson right there but he doesn't make a big effort to make the tackle.

I understand that players have different responsibilities, but once the ball is in the air or once a reception has been made, it's time to make a play. If you happen to be in the area and have the ability to make the play, then you need to do something.

Wilson may not have been responsible for the reception, but he was in a position to make sure it didn't go for a score. He didn't do that.

HOU-TEX
09-28-2010, 02:42 PM
The Brice McCain play is not something that I hold against Wilson. I have not mentioned that play other than when others have brought it up. That play was on the humming bird, Brice McCain.

All I am talking about is Eugene Wilson being in position to keep Williams out of the endzone, but he pulled up lame. If you go back and watch the play from the cowboys offensive perspective you can see Wilson right there but he doesn't make a big effort to make the tackle.

I understand that players have different responsibilities, but once the ball is in the air or once a reception has been made, it's time to make a play. If you happen to be in the area and have the ability to make the play, then you need to do something.

Wilson may not have been responsible for the reception, but he was in a position to make sure it didn't go for a score. He didn't do that.

Okay, so if we're going to hand blame over to Wilson, who wasn't responsible for Williams that play. What does Jackson, who was man-on with Williams, get? The ole he's young excuse?

On a related note, Wilson DID pull a hammy that play and it was obvious.

*Disclaimer- No, I'm not Wilson's brother or any of that crap. I just think if we're playing the blame game we need to blame the correct player

Rey
09-28-2010, 02:53 PM
Okay, so if we're going to hand blame over to Wilson, who wasn't responsible for Williams that play. What does Jackson, who was man-on with Williams, get? The ole he's young excuse?

Who cares?

This is a thread about Eugene Wilson. If you want to see bitching about Kjax, it's not hard to fine...I'm sure you can get your fix...

No one has excused Kareem for his mistakes. I'd like for you to quote someone...anyone in this thread that has said that. In another thread, I even said that "I'd like to see less of McCain and more Molden and possibly less KJax if he steps up enough"....


On a related note, Wilson DID pull a hammy that play and it was obvious.

If you look back in the thread, I explained that I did not see that during the game. I basically posed it as a question and said I wasn't sure. But that is not relevant anyways. The point is that he has been under performing and we have a young guy behind him that has flashed and shown a lot of potential. Add that to the fact that he pulled up lame on a play where he had a chance to save a TD and that's just another reason why we should get some fresh legs in there.

*Disclaimer- No, I'm not Wilson's brother or any of that crap. I just think if we're playing the blame game we need to blame the correct player


Why do we have to mention everyone else that f'ed up when we are talking about a specific player? There are plenty of threads that discuss the secondary as a whole. This thread is about Wilson, his poor play, his lack of being around the ball, and his tired legs and pulling up lame.

Yes Kjax messed up...That was his man...

....BUT Wilson could have stopped the play without it being a TD if he were A) better B) healthier C) more determined. Doesn't matter which choice you make. All of them lead to D) he needs to be replaced.

silvrhand
09-28-2010, 02:59 PM
McCain:
Quote:
(on if CB Kareem Jackson bit out on the out pattern on the 15-yard touchdown by Dallas on Sunday) “That was actually (CB) Brice (McCain). That was McCain. McCain is in man coverage there also, sitting on his outside shoulder. There’s help in the middle of the field, but there’s not help vertical. So he’s got to squeeze that route and make that play.”

Why would anyone play an outside positions on bump and run and not utilize the sideline as an extra defender.. Can anyone check to see where McCain lined up initially did Roy push through to get an inside position?

Rey
09-28-2010, 03:02 PM
Why would anyone play an outside positions on bump and run and not utilize the sideline as an extra defender.. Can anyone check to see where McCain lined up initially did Roy push through to get an inside position?

I'm pretty sure Roy pushed through him...McCain just provides 0 resitance so that wouldn't shock me at all...

But if he had help inside, but not deep, that would explain him being on the outside shoulder...You can't use the sideline as an extra defender if you aren't strong or physical enough to bump the receiver off his route anyways...

HOU-TEX
09-28-2010, 03:35 PM
Who cares?

This is a thread about Eugene Wilson. If you want to see bitching about Kjax, it's not hard to fine...I'm sure you can get your fix...

No one has excused Kareem for his mistakes. I'd like for you to quote someone...anyone in this thread that has said that. In another thread, I even said that "I'd like to see less of McCain and more Molden and possibly less KJax if he steps up enough"....




If you look back in the thread, I explained that I did not see that during the game. I basically posed it as a question and said I wasn't sure. But that is not relevant anyways. The point is that he has been under performing and we have a young guy behind him that has flashed and shown a lot of potential. Add that to the fact that he pulled up lame on a play where he had a chance to save a TD and that's just another reason why we should get some fresh legs in there.



Why do we have to mention everyone else that f'ed up when we are talking about a specific player? There are plenty of threads that discuss the secondary as a whole. This thread is about Wilson, his poor play, his lack of being around the ball, and his tired legs and pulling up lame.

Yes Kjax messed up...That was his man...

....BUT Wilson could have stopped the play without it being a TD if he were A) better B) healthier C) more determined. Doesn't matter which choice you make. All of them lead to D) he needs to be replaced.

I was just commenting on the play you mentioned. It just seemed like you were placing more of the blame on Wilson rather than Jackson. If not, then it sounds like we're on the same page. If Wilson got the hammy pretty good then he'll likely not be playing this Sunday anyway.

Rey
09-28-2010, 03:47 PM
I was just commenting on the play you mentioned. It just seemed like you were placing more of the blame on Wilson rather than Jackson. If not, then it sounds like we're on the same page. If Wilson got the hammy pretty good then he'll likely not be playing this Sunday anyway.

No, No...Looks like we just missed each other...

Jackson has been bad in coverage. In fact, I have not seen a secondary player that I will say has been good or even decent in coverage.

And I seriously hate for any player to get injured...I hope Wilson gets well and is able to compete for that spot...I don't want any of these fringe/mediocre players feeling secure in their spot...Wilson or Nolan...or Barber...All of those guys need to be trying like hell to get that starting FS spot...

badboy
09-28-2010, 03:52 PM
Hey Kubes, why would KJ be on Roy Williams without help over the top?

silvrhand
09-28-2010, 03:55 PM
I'm pretty sure Roy pushed through him...McCain just provides 0 resitance so that wouldn't shock me at all...

But if he had help inside, but not deep, that would explain him being on the outside shoulder...You can't use the sideline as an extra defender if you aren't strong or physical enough to bump the receiver off his route anyways...

That's not quite how it works, the sideline works as an extra defender cause the QB doesn't have a lot of room, long as you don't let them inside off the line you can roll up under them and force the QB to throw it over the top, making it a tough throw. Typically you have help deep if you are lining up on an outside position or else someone is going to down the field seam route, like we saw..

Fico
09-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Why would anyone play an outside positions on bump and run and not utilize the sideline as an extra defender.. Can anyone check to see where McCain lined up initially did Roy push through to get an inside position?

Roy stemmed him outside with his first two steps, McCain expanded and gave up his leverage. It was poor technique by McCain but he did make up nicely and was just out played for the ball because he is 2 feet tall.

silvrhand
09-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Hey Kubes, why would KJ be on Roy Williams without help over the top?

Cause we are blitzing and trying to get some pressure on Romo, KJ just got tangled up, it's not the first time this has ever happenned, let's just hope we don't see it a lot.

HOU-TEX
09-28-2010, 03:57 PM
Hey Kubes, why would KJ be on Roy Williams without help over the top?

If an NFL CB can't cover a WR one on one does he truly deserve to be in the NFL? Especially Roy Williams in arguably one of the easiest routes to cover.

Fico
09-28-2010, 04:04 PM
That's not quite how it works, the sideline works as an extra defender cause the QB doesn't have a lot of room, long as you don't let them inside off the line you can roll up under them and force the QB to throw it over the top, making it a tough throw. Typically you have help deep if you are lining up on an outside position or else someone is going to down the field seam route, like we saw..

Yes. This is almost always who it works in pure man. The CB has inside leverage (the DBs outside eye on the WR inside eye). This to help prevent inside release because throws toward the middle of the field are easier for QBs to complete. What a physical corner should be able to do is be physical enough with the WR to cause him to expand towards the sideline which further narrows the window the QB can place the ball into.

The problem here is that McCain is about half the size of Roy, and on Roy's initial stutter step and stem, McCain's feet widen and stop moving = beat, before the route starts.

On the main subject Wilson needs to go, he has played sub-par this season and the football seems to enjoy being around Troy Nolan. If we are going young and letting the young guys play then we need to do just that.

badboy
09-28-2010, 04:05 PM
If an NFL CB can't cover a WR one on one does he truly deserve to be in the NFL? Especially Roy Williams in arguably one of the easiest routes to cover.Why yes, because KJ went to Alabama & is NFl ready!

Rey
09-28-2010, 04:07 PM
That's not quite how it works, the sideline works as an extra defender cause the QB doesn't have a lot of room

I get that, but what I'm saying is that point is moot if the corner doesn't have enough strength and body mass to keep the receiver on the sideline.

Basically, it doesn't matter if McCain has someone pinned to the sideline because when the ball is in the air, he just gets out-muscled for the ball.

Additionally, he does not have the strength to dictate a receivers release point. If the receiver wants an outside release against McCain, he gets an outside release.

If McCain has help inside then he should try to force the ball to go inside hence the reason why he tried to shut down the outside. Makes no sense to take away the inside route when that is where your help is coming from.

It's not like McCain came up to the line and knew that Williams was about to go deep.

But besides all that, the coverage wasn't bad. He was right there with him. He just failed to locate the ball and got beat by a better player.

Rey
09-28-2010, 04:11 PM
Yes. This is almost always who it works in pure man. The CB has inside leverage (the DBs outside eye on the WR inside eye). This to help prevent inside release because throws toward the middle of the field are easier for QBs to complete.

According to the info we have, McCain had help inside. Why would he be shaded to where his help was coming from and leave himself vulnerable where he had no help?

If you shade inside the receiver has a clear outside release with no one to help over the top.

The only way you'd do that is if you knew what route the receiver was about to run. If you know he's running a deep pattern it makes no sense to be up on him anyways...

Fico
09-28-2010, 04:16 PM
Hey Kubes, why would KJ be on Roy Williams without help over the top?

Because he is Dallas's #2 WR. Austin is going to get the extra attention, and then you have Witten to worry about as well.

Fico
09-28-2010, 04:21 PM
According to the info we have, McCain had help inside. Why would he be shaded to where his help was coming from and leave himself vulnerable where he had no help?

If you shade inside the receiver has a clear outside release with no one to help over the top.

The only way you'd do that is if you knew what route the receiver was about to run. If you know he's running a deep pattern it makes no sense to be up on him anyways...

One deep safety will usually allow you to help on the slot guy if he pushes vertical. If McCain gives Roy a free release inside Roy can push vertical quicker and the ball will beat most safeties to the outside. We have Wilson as his help Wilson is not fast.

Additionally the sideline is his help.

The DB lined up over the slot will usually have an outside shade because he has inside help that actually has a chance to make a play.

And when I say shade we are talking about inches in alignment, neither should allow an absolutely free release in either direction. This biggest mistake McCain made was widening and stopping his feet, when Roy gave him a stutter and outside stem move.

HOU-TEX
09-28-2010, 04:21 PM
Why yes, because KJ went to Alabama & is NFl ready!

Well, then I guess HOU-TEX is NFL ready too. I didn't go to Bama, but I'm sure I can get burnt with the best of them.

Seriously though, I know I've been giving KJax a lot of grief lately. I'm still hoping he can turn out to be a good one. He just seems lost right now

Rey
09-28-2010, 04:41 PM
One deep safety will usually allow you to help on the slot guy if he pushes vertical.

Additionally the sideline is his help.

The DB lined up over the slot will usually have an outside shade because he has inside help that actually has a chance to make a play.

And when I say shade we are talking about inches in alignment, neither should allow an absolutely free release in either direction. This biggest mistake McCain made was widening and stopping his feet, when Roy gave him a stutter and outside stem move.

Plenty of corners on the outside receiver shade on the outside shoulder because they have help inside. It's not like the corner lines up and knows without a doubt what route is about to be run.

If you have help inside, you don't shade to the inside. That makes 0 sense.

I know what shading means. If you are shading to a side, you have virtually no shot of keeping a player from running to the opposite side you are shading...hence my use of the term "free release".

If McCain shades inside on that play, the WR can just take an outside release with very little resistance. All he'd have to do at that point is go straight up field.

Obviously the defense wasn't expecting a deep route there or they would have had his help over the top and not inside...

If McCain gives Roy a free release inside Roy can push vertical quicker and the ball will beat most safeties to the outside. We have Wilson as his help Wilson is not fast.

This also makes 0 sense. If that is the case then it doesn't matter what McCain did, where his help was coming from or how he lined up. According to this, the safety is not fast enough to get over there anyways.

Also, the WR cannot push vertical any quicker. If you are shaded on a receiver then all he has to do is take the path of least resistance...Doesn't matter if it's in or out.

And, I have not seen anything that said Eugene was his help. All I have heard was that he had help inside.

Fico
09-28-2010, 04:55 PM
Plenty of corners on the outside receiver shade on the outside shoulder because they have help inside. It's not like the corner lines up and knows without a doubt what route is about to be run.

If you have help inside, you don't shade to the inside. That makes 0 sense.

I know what shading means. If you are shading to a side, you have virtually no shot of keeping a player from running to the opposite side you are shading...hence my use of the term "free release".

If McCain shades inside on that play, the WR can just take an outside release with very little resistance. All he'd have to do at that point is go straight up field.

Obviously the defense wasn't expecting a deep route there or they would have had his help over the top and not inside...



This also makes 0 sense. If that is the case then it doesn't matter what McCain did, where his help was coming from or how he lined up. According to this, the safety is not fast enough to get over there anyways.

Also, the WR cannot push vertical any quicker. If you are shaded on a receiver then all he has to do is take the path of least resistance...Doesn't matter if it's in or out.

And, I have not seen anything that said Eugene was his help. All I have heard was that he had help inside.

You are misunderstanding me or I am not being very clear. I will respond this evening once I unsuccessfully attempt to beat traffic home.

silvrhand
09-28-2010, 05:31 PM
Plenty of corners on the outside receiver shade on the outside shoulder because they have help inside. It's not like the corner lines up and knows without a doubt what route is about to be run.

If you have help inside, you don't shade to the inside. That makes 0 sense.

I know what shading means. If you are shading to a side, you have virtually no shot of keeping a player from running to the opposite side you are shading...hence my use of the term "free release".

If McCain shades inside on that play, the WR can just take an outside release with very little resistance. All he'd have to do at that point is go straight up field.

Obviously the defense wasn't expecting a deep route there or they would have had his help over the top and not inside...



This also makes 0 sense. If that is the case then it doesn't matter what McCain did, where his help was coming from or how he lined up. According to this, the safety is not fast enough to get over there anyways.

Also, the WR cannot push vertical any quicker. If you are shaded on a receiver then all he has to do is take the path of least resistance...Doesn't matter if it's in or out.

And, I have not seen anything that said Eugene was his help. All I have heard was that he had help inside.

if you shade inside and the receiver releases outside, you simply turn your hips give him a little push and try to trail him up inside, which gives you perfect position to make a play on the ball. The only way you get is a pure speedster and a great throw, if you know you are playing a pure speedster you just beat the crap out of him off the line and try to slow him down.

If you shade outside and the receiver releases inside if you dont' have inside help it's an easy throw for the QB, the can throw it low at their feet and the player can go get the ball, it's a very easy Peyton type completion.

Carr Bombed
09-28-2010, 05:46 PM
Do you have a link? On his weekly 610 show yesterday, Kubiak was asked if Nolan might replace Wilson given the injury (of course 610 didn't press him about Wilson's poor play), and Kubiak said that Nolan and Barber were interchangable and he didn't know which one would replace Wilson just yet.

That's not exactly how it happened, on 610 they asked him about starting Troy Nolan. That's when Kubiak worked Barber into the conversation talking both players up (which is what coaches do), I think he then talked about Barber's experience. If you read through the coach speech I think it's pretty clear who Kubiak has backing up Eugene.

Then Bernard Pollard comes on later and talks about how Barber is excited to "get his shot"....like he already knows Barber is going to be starting.

Rey
09-28-2010, 05:50 PM
if you shade inside and the receiver releases outside, you simply turn your hips give him a little push and try to trail him up inside, which gives you perfect position to make a play on the ball.


You are going with the assumption that McCain knew the WR was going deep.

You do not shade inside, when your help is inside. Again, that makes 0 sense.

If they thought that the WR was going to go deep his help would have been over the top and he probably would have shaded to the inside if he shaded at all.

Obviously they were expecting something towards the middle of the field, but instead the WR went deep.

What you guys are saying is that the Texans just made the wrong call there...Ok, that is fine...

But to say that he should be shaded inside no matter what is just false. They don't know what route is being run and it doesn't make sense to shade to the side you have someone helping you on.

The only way you get is a pure speedster and a great throw, if you know you are playing a pure speedster you just beat the crap out of him off the line and try to slow him down.

If you shade outside and the receiver releases inside if you dont' have inside help it's an easy throw for the QB, the can throw it low at their feet and the player can go get the ball, it's a very easy Peyton type completion.

1) Brice McCain isn't beating the crap out of anyone. He can barely make solo tackles.

2) We've already established that he had inside help

Rey
09-28-2010, 06:40 PM
if you shade inside and the receiver releases outside, you simply turn your hips give him a little push and try to trail him up inside, which gives you perfect position to make a play on the ball. The only way you get is a pure speedster and a great throw, if you know you are playing a pure speedster you just beat the crap out of him off the line and try to slow him down.

If you shade outside and the receiver releases inside if you dont' have inside help it's an easy throw for the QB, the can throw it low at their feet and the player can go get the ball, it's a very easy Peyton type completion.

Look at the second clip on the first video.

If McCain takes the sideline away, which is what he should have been trying to do, and forced Romo to throw the ball more inside,Wilson probably gets a chance to make a play on that ball.

But because he gave him the sideline his help wasn't able to get there in time. Not sure how you can watch that clip and argue that He should have pushed him to the sideline. He didn't do his job and essentially did what you're suggesting and he gave up a huge chunk of yards.

http://www.texansbullblog.com/film-study-texans-outcoached-outschemed-dallas/news/

Fico
09-28-2010, 06:41 PM
Plenty of corners on the outside receiver shade on the outside shoulder because they have help inside. It's not like the corner lines up and knows without a doubt what route is about to be run.

If you have help inside, you don't shade to the inside. That makes 0 sense.

I know what shading means. If you are shading to a side, you have virtually no shot of keeping a player from running to the opposite side you are shading...hence my use of the term "free release".

If McCain shades inside on that play, the WR can just take an outside release with very little resistance. All he'd have to do at that point is go straight up field.

Obviously the defense wasn't expecting a deep route there or they would have had his help over the top and not inside...



This also makes 0 sense. If that is the case then it doesn't matter what McCain did, where his help was coming from or how he lined up. According to this, the safety is not fast enough to get over there anyways.

Also, the WR cannot push vertical any quicker. If you are shaded on a receiver then all he has to do is take the path of least resistance...Doesn't matter if it's in or out.

And, I have not seen anything that said Eugene was his help. All I have heard was that he had help inside.

Ok let’s start at the beginning. If we are playing bump-run coverage, we are either in a cover 0 or a cover 1 look. Meaning we have 0 deep help or 1 deep safety. On this play, as established, we were in cover 1. The deep safety will try to split the passing strength down the middle but maintain a relationship with the hashmarks. Meaning the deep safety will split the distance between number#2 to the passing strength (the slot in this case) and #1 to the weak side (Roy). Wilson is aligned about 1 yard inside the far hashmark (from Roy).

Now lets us discuss leverage. When I say inside leverage I mean the CB outside eye on the receiver’s inside eye. Try that on somebody in your house you are still almost exactly in front of them. We are talking inches here, it does not allow a free release either way. It merely provides a better position to defend the inside release as opposed to the outside. This allows the CB a half step advantage if an inside release is taken. If the WR gets an inside release and pushes vertical, or slants there are very few safeties in the league that can make it over the top in time to make a play, and those that can would need a great jump on the ball. The help is more situated to help the passing strength or errant deep throws to the weak side. By the inside leverage acquired by the CB’s alignment you try to eliminate the inside throw. The CB must press the WR into the boundary narrowing the window for the QB to throw the ball. In a true 0 or 1 coverage no outside CB is coached to give up an inside release by alignment.

Now whether the D was expecting a deep route or not…. I am not sure what to tell you there. The D brought 5 man pressure and plaid cover 1 behind it. Many times when you play 1 or 0 you are going to get a deep ball thrown on you especially with all the rules that favor the offenses in these situations. What you are gambling on is that the pressure and coverage techniques cause a difficult throw to be errant and incomplete or a floater allows you help to make a play. I can’t tell you what the D or McCain was thinking but that is what happens many times when you bring pressure and play 0 or 1 behind it.

Concerning the original play McCain looks to be heads up to slightly outside in his alignment (its tough to tell from the sideline angle). This alignment is already allowing him to be beat vertically by Roy. Roy merely has to take an inside release and stem McCain for 1 step and push vertical and he has a nice play. To exacerbate the problem upon release McCain widens out on Roy’s one outside stem step thus allowing him a free release vertical with more space, with 0% chance that Wilson would be able to make it over in time. To make things even worse, McCain stops his feet and reaches to punch with his wrong hand causing him to open his hips slower further allowing Roy to gain separation.

Easy throw and catch.

Fico
09-28-2010, 06:46 PM
Look at the second clip on the first video.

If McCain takes the sideline away, which is what he should have been trying to do, and forced Romo to throw the ball more inside,Wilson probably gets a chance to make a play on that ball.

But because he gave him the sideline his help wasn't able to get there in time. Not sure how you can watch that clip and argue that He should have pushed him to the sideline. He didn't do his job and essentially did what you're suggesting and he gave up a huge chunk of yards.

http://www.texansbullblog.com/film-study-texans-outcoached-outschemed-dallas/news/

That play is zone coverage, lets not mix apples and oranges here.

Rey
09-28-2010, 06:51 PM
Ok let’s start at the beginning. If we are playing bump-run coverage, we are either in a cover 0 or a cover 1 look. Meaning we have 0 deep help or 1 deep safety.

Listen, you don't have to break down all the little nuances of the game. I have the terminology down.


Secondly, I stopped reading right here because that is not true. Bump and run Coverage has nothing to do with what the safeties are doing.

Rey
09-28-2010, 06:52 PM
That play is zone coverage, lets not mix apples and oranges here.

What? That is the play that we are talking about...

That is the play where McCain gets roasted???? That was not zone coverage...

I'm lost now...My head hurts...have no idea what you guys are talking about...I'm done...

Fico
09-28-2010, 07:24 PM
Listen, you don't have to break down all the little nuances of the game. I have the terminology down.


Secondly, I stopped reading right here because that is not true. Bump and run Coverage has nothing to do with what the safeties are doing.

It has to do with what the whole defense is doing schematically so yes it does involve the safeties. Bump and run is not a zone concept it is a man to man concept. Your true man concepts are 0 and 1, there are variations that combine other zone combinations over the top, but those are the coverages referred to with the phrase bump and run.

What? That is the play that we are talking about...

That is the play where McCain gets roasted???? That was not zone coverage...

I'm lost now...My head hurts...have no idea what you guys are talking about...I'm done...

That is Dez catching the ball in play #2 in that clip, not Roy. I was talking about Roy's TD catch if I was analyzing the wrong play then I apologize. All my discussion has been directed at Roy's TD catch which is #3 in the clip you were looking at.

And yes the play in which Dez catches the ball is zone coverage(the one you were looking at). Notice the CBs eyes into the backfield, the LBs drop and A.Smith dropping into coverage from his DE spot. This was a zone blitz.

MannyFresh
09-28-2010, 07:25 PM
So is he hurting or is he happy?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/m_antonio1972/stupidsmile.jpg

DexmanC
09-28-2010, 07:34 PM
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/m_antonio1972/stupidsmile.jpg

"DIS MY BAAAAABY!"

thunderkyss
09-28-2010, 07:49 PM
If an NFL CB can't cover a WR one on one does he truly deserve to be in the NFL? Especially Roy Williams in arguably one of the easiest routes to cover.

First, the CB is at a huge disadvantage. He has no idea what the route is.

Second, if you're Corner gives up the inside & there happens to be a Safety 15 yards deep on the inside..... I don't care what the coach says, it looks like he was expecting help on the inside.

3rd, how is a 9 the easiest route to cover with no help? If you trail him, the QB puts it over the top, nothing you can do. If you're on top, it's a back hip throw. Nothing you can do. If you're outside, the QB can throw it inside, nothing you can do.

The only thing he can do, is physically force him to the outside... he's not big enough to do that to Roy. He did get Bryant against the Sideline, again.. .perfectly thrown ball right over the top...

thunderkyss
09-28-2010, 08:02 PM
That's not exactly how it happened, on 610 they asked him about starting Troy Nolan. That's when Kubiak worked Barber into the conversation talking both players up (which is what coaches do), I think he then talked about Barber's experience. If you read through the coach speech I think it's pretty clear who Kubiak has backing up Eugene.

Then Bernard Pollard comes on later and talks about how Barber is excited to "get his shot"....like he already knows Barber is going to be starting.

I think we're going to do it like our LBs. Doesn't matter how they are "classed" We've got LB1, LB2, LB3, LB4.... One of them misses a game, the other moves up.

I don't think Barber is Pollard's back-up or that Nolan is Wilson's..... either of those guys go out, Barber comes in. If something happens to Pollard, then Nolan & Barber will play......

I don't agree with this, I'd rather see Nolan at FS...

b0ng
09-28-2010, 08:12 PM
I think we're going to do it like our LBs. Doesn't matter how they are "classed" We've got LB1, LB2, LB3, LB4.... One of them misses a game, the other moves up.

I don't think Barber is Pollard's back-up or that Nolan is Wilson's..... either of those guys go out, Barber comes in. If something happens to Pollard, then Nolan & Barber will play......

I don't agree with this, I'd rather see Nolan at FS...

This. I've seen a hell of a lot more from Nolan (Even if it was preseason against scrubs or whatever) than I have seen from Barber in any game time. I don't get to watch everyday practice though, but if they end up putting Nolan in at the end of the year and he lights it up I'm going to be pissed off.

thunderkyss
09-28-2010, 08:22 PM
Look at the second clip on the first video.

If McCain takes the sideline away, which is what he should have been trying to do, and forced Romo to throw the ball more inside,Wilson probably gets a chance to make a play on that ball.

But because he gave him the sideline his help wasn't able to get there in time. Not sure how you can watch that clip and argue that He should have pushed him to the sideline. He didn't do his job and essentially did what you're suggesting and he gave up a huge chunk of yards.

http://www.texansbullblog.com/film-study-texans-outcoached-outschemed-dallas/news/

This is why I like TexansTalk... this is a good football discussion.

If you watch the Roy Williams TD on that clip, pay attention to the slot receiver. The LBs vacated the middle & the DB on the slot takes an outside position. Wilson looks as though he came down, to make a play on the ball.

Just like Peyton does many times against us, Romo is just waiting to see what the safety does. If he maintains position, or moves to the outside to help on Williams, Romo will throw the ball to the slot. If the safety comes down, which he did, Romo will throw it to Williams, which he did.

six in one hand...

The LBs chasing Barber was the big problem on this play. IMO, one of them should have dropped back to the middle, allowing Wilson to stay on the outside, and making the throw to the slot more difficult.

But like the players & the coaches have been saying, this was a team effort. It's not just one guy who screwed up.

thunderkyss
09-28-2010, 08:34 PM
Ok let’s start at the beginning. If we are playing bump-run coverage, we are either in a cover 0 or a cover 1 look. Meaning we have 0 deep help or 1 deep safety. On this play, as established, we were in cover 1. The deep safety will try to split the passing strength down the middle but maintain a relationship with the hashmarks. Meaning the deep safety will split the distance between number#2 to the passing strength (the slot in this case) and #1 to the weak side (Roy). Wilson is aligned about 1 yard inside the far hashmark (from Roy). (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010092608/2010/REG3/cowboys@texans#tab:watch/contentId:09000d5d81ad6020)


You're right, I didn't see where Wilson was lined up at the beginning of the play.

So now, that was a stupid coaching decision to put McCain on Roy Williams.

But McCain is definitely shading to the outside, giving Roy the inside release.

Look at the job GQ does on Austin at the top. That's good coverage there. He's shading Austin to the outside, like you're saying McCain should be shading Williams... But it looks like McCain is expecting help on the inside.

Fico
09-28-2010, 10:17 PM
You're right, I didn't see where Wilson was lined up at the beginning of the play.

So now, that was a stupid coaching decision to put McCain on Roy Williams.

But McCain is definitely shading to the outside, giving Roy the inside release.

Look at the job GQ does on Austin at the top. That's good coverage there. He's shading Austin to the outside, like you're saying McCain should be shading Williams... But it looks like McCain is expecting help on the inside.

The deep help is there to play off the QB's eyes and help all three. Wilson's alignment dictates his abilities to help. The way he is aligned allows him to help the passing strength (2 WR side) more than the weak side. This is correct alignment and thought process in this defense since 2>1. Wilson's physical ability limits him to make play on the slot and maybe outside WR at the top, if he got a good jump. Wilson will never in a million years make it from the far hash to the near sideline (Roy) before the ball unless its a floater or something.-----This is the reason I believe some people say McCain should have outside leverage and funnel Roy to Wilson, except by doing that you give a 6'4 receiver the chance to put his body in between the corner and the ball, with an unabated lane for the QB to throw through.-----

When viewing the play it looks to me as if GQ is head up or slightly inside Austin. Which is how he should be aligned. I was actually stating that McCain should have his outside eye lined up on Roy's inside eye, giving him inside leverage, eliminating the inside release and quick throw to beat our pressure (5 man). Also as stated earlier if pressed into the sideline the window for Romo to fit the ball in is much smaller, and the throw itself is much more difficult.

The LBs didn't drop back because they are in man coverage on the backs, that is why they flowed with them at the snap. If there is a dump off they have to be there to make the tackle.

There are several reasons why this play didn't work:

1. No Pressure at all when bringing 5
2. Poor pre-snap and post snap technique on McCains part
3. Wilson not being super human.

It is extremely difficult to play man coverage of any kind when the QB has that much time and the ability to make a clean throw.