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Blake
09-26-2010, 04:21 PM
And lol to all the KJ lovers who thought he was better than DR. This guy is raw and needs to be a nickel corner. Awful game for him. And wat to go on making Roy Williams look like a total stud. Haha

m5kwatts
09-26-2010, 04:23 PM
I'll give you the Roy slant. That was boneheaded. I still think this front four is making the back 7 look so bad. Kareem had some good hits in this game. Rookie CBs are going to struggle and McCain isn't any more ready than Kareem. We just need these DBs to grow up which will happen. The problem to me is the pass rush.

TexCanada
09-26-2010, 04:25 PM
I'll give you the Roy slant. That was boneheaded. I still think this front four is making the back 7 look so bad. Kareem had some good hits in this game. Rookie CBs are going to struggle and McCain isn't any more ready than Kareem. We just need these DBs to grow up which will happen. The problem to me is the pass rush.

Pass rush and FS play. Wilson was not helping these young guys out at all.

GuerillaBlack
09-26-2010, 04:25 PM
Lets see what Troy Nolan can do back there instead of Eugune Wilson.

Jackie Chiles
09-26-2010, 04:26 PM
Pass rush and FS play. Wilson was not helping these young guys out at all.

Ugh, did Wilson drop a pick 6 or what? Gift wrapped too.

Wolf
09-26-2010, 04:26 PM
my concern is the pass rush and I can't find the thread about how the Texans like fast but small corners. Cowboy receivers are big and seem that they had no problem going up and getting the ball

playa465
09-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Is it really funny?:thumbdown

Brisco_County
09-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Lets see what Troy Nolan can do back there instead of Eugune Wilson.

Might as well. Wilson looked terrible.

awtysst
09-26-2010, 04:28 PM
Ugh, did Wilson drop a pick 6 or what? Gift wrapped too.

That pick six ties the game at 10. We grab the momentum and who knows what happens the rest of the game. It was a key drop.

Wolf
09-26-2010, 04:29 PM
I could have caught that ball


signed
Will Demps

:gun:

Blake
09-26-2010, 04:30 PM
I'll give you the Roy slant. That was boneheaded. I still think this front four is making the back 7 look so bad. Kareem had some good hits in this game. Rookie CBs are going to struggle and McCain isn't any more ready than Kareem. We just need these DBs to grow up which will happen. The problem to me is the pass rush.

the problem to you is 4 vets, Mario Williams, Amobi, Antonio Smith and the other guy? Not the ROOKIE cornerback? Romo was getting the ball out in 2 seconds. Not the d-lines fault.

It's ok that he is playing like crap. He is a rookie. But if you are going to trust a rookie on an island he needs more safety support. Bad game plan by the DC.

Blake
09-26-2010, 04:32 PM
I agree with others. Lets see what nolan can do at FS.

cdollaz
09-26-2010, 04:34 PM
Is it really funny?:thumbdown

That's what I was thinking. What kind of true fan thinks it is funny when our players do not play well. Especially calling out a particular player when the player they apparantly adore didn't do anything either.

Maddict5
09-26-2010, 04:36 PM
Pass rush and FS play. Wilson was not helping these young guys out at all.

Lets see what Troy Nolan can do back there instead of Eugune Wilson.

he got benched but it was barber that was in for him not nolan

euro-Texan
09-26-2010, 04:37 PM
Is Petey Faggins still available?

Brandon420tx
09-26-2010, 04:38 PM
Ehhh ... Dunta isn't really lighting it up in Falcon Land, and he was bad when thrown at last year. The only reason he wasn't thrown at more often last year was because we were pretty much playing Quin and McCain on the opponents best receivers.

Our DB Coach needs to have a day dedicated to press coverage this week, thats for sure

Hardcore Texan
09-26-2010, 04:40 PM
Might as well. Wilson looked terrible.

Yep.

TexCanada
09-26-2010, 04:41 PM
Is Reeves still a free agent right now? I'm not exactly sure what the situation was with him being cut, or if he has been picked up by another team, but he would be a nice addition to our team right now. He's just a fairly solid player.

Goatcheese
09-26-2010, 04:41 PM
Ehhh ... Dunta isn't really lighting it up in Falcon Land, and he was bad when thrown at last year. The only reason he wasn't thrown at more often last year was because we were pretty much playing Quin and McCain on the opponents best receivers.

Our DB Coach needs to have a day dedicated to press coverage this week, thats for sure

Actually D-Rob was usually on the opponents #1.

Brandon420tx
09-26-2010, 04:43 PM
I don't have footage to back up my claim, but I'm pretty sure from midway through the season on it was Quin and Reeves usually on the top target

Playmaker
09-26-2010, 04:43 PM
seriously, do we need to do corner blitz to get heat on the QB?

Kareem has looked bad, but no pass rush isn't helping at all.

ObsiWan
09-26-2010, 04:46 PM
Bottom Line:
Whatever Jr. Gibbs is teaching the DBs isn't working.

Blake
09-26-2010, 05:04 PM
That's what I was thinking. What kind of true fan thinks it is funny when our players do not play well. Especially calling out a particular player when the player they apparantly adore didn't do anything either.

Yeah lets not get into the whos a true fan debate. I don't have to justify my thoughts to you. I've put my time in.

beerlover
09-26-2010, 05:07 PM
KJ is unhappy no doubt about it. goona have to concede FS to my draft brothers in next years draft, unless Nolan gets some PT to prove otherwise Wilson is post toastie.

hradhak
09-26-2010, 05:12 PM
The stats are going to be somewhat skewed. Manning, McNabb, and Romo are all very good quarterbacks. Other than the complete blow up on the Roy Williams TD, the secondary didn't play horribly. The Cowboys gameplanned for short passes.

awtysst
09-26-2010, 05:14 PM
KJ is unhappy no doubt about it. goona have to concede FS to my draft brothers in next years draft, unless Nolan gets some PT to prove otherwise Wilson is post toastie.

Thats why i was diaspointed Nolan didn't get into this game. We saw Barber couldn't handle it last season, give Nolan a chance. Whats the worst he could do: play worse than Wilson?!

cdollaz
09-26-2010, 05:19 PM
Yeah lets not get into the whos a true fan debate. I don't have to justify my thoughts to you. I've put my time in.

You don't 'have' to do anything. Buy you look like a dumbass when you claim to be a fan and then laugh when a player on the team you are a supposed fan of does not play well. Sure, you don't owe me any explanation. Likewise, I don't owe you any slack when it comes to expressing my opinion on your comments.

awtysst
09-26-2010, 05:27 PM
You don't 'have' to do anything. Buy you look like a dumbass when you claim to be a fan and then laugh when a player on the team you are a supposed fan of does not play well. Sure, you don't owe me any explanation. Likewise, I don't owe you any slack when it comes to expressing my opinion on your comments.

Super Mario has been here a long time. I interpreted his "laugh" as a type of nervous chuckle or a head shaking laughter in disbelief. I do not think he was literally laughing manically at KJ.

NitroGSXR
09-26-2010, 05:32 PM
You don't 'have' to do anything. Buy you look like a dumbass when you claim to be a fan and then laugh when a player on the team you are a supposed fan of does not play well. Sure, you don't owe me any explanation. Likewise, I don't owe you any slack when it comes to expressing my opinion on your comments.

Hey now... play nice. Super Mario is a great fan and a well respected poster. I don't think he resembles anything near a dumbass. I can't say the same for Kareem though!!

Wolf
09-26-2010, 05:33 PM
hell I am laughing at this mess

why? because I have gone from sighing, to disbelief, to anger to laughing (can't get much angrier and have to let it go)

not just at jackson but the whole secondary.. giving up 1069 yards over 3 games? (and NO I don't buy into the "we played great quarterbacks excuse"

It is a freaking mess right now

MojoMan
09-26-2010, 05:35 PM
If you start a rookie at QB, he is going to get burned. However, this is the best way to get him up to speed. You have to learn sometime. For Kareem Jackson, that time is now.

Cut the kid some slack. The Texans will not have any idea what they have in this player until the end of the season, at the very earliest. And it could be next year before he starts coming into his own. If he ever does, that is.

Playmaker
09-26-2010, 05:37 PM
If you start a rookie at QB, he is going to get burned. However, this is the best way to get him up to speed. You have to learn sometime. For Kareem Jackson, that time is now.

Cut the kid some slack. The Texans will not have any idea what they have in this player until the end of the season, at the very earliest. And it could be next year before he starts coming into his own. If he ever does, that is.

we're trying to get to the playoffs this year though, and his play will have a direct correlation to that.

TimeKiller
09-26-2010, 05:38 PM
Hey, he didn't look so hot today huh? I'll step up. I thought Kareem Jackson was all that and a bag of potato chips. :snap: Throw your eggs at me, I want 'em. You wanna pick on the rookie though, pick on the puddle-of-goo-safety defense we're bringing. Pollard was AWESOME last year and this year he's made 2 plays that had NOTHING to do with him being anywhere near good as a coverage man. Add that Wilson is 6 steps too slow to be any sort of threat lining up as a center fielder and as far as dropping gifts, wrapped up and delivered with a name tag TO: EUGENE, FROM: TONY...well, we let the last guy who did that walk. I suggest a similar action. I also suggest putting your safeties in a position to matter so a flailing offense doesn't make you look like you're playing 11 on 9. Frankly, I'm ready to see a Barber or Nolan get their shot to keep a job and I'm also completely ready to see one or the other or both come in obvious passing downs to be an extra COVERAGE man instead of a guy who is geared for stopping run plays.

Blake
09-26-2010, 05:38 PM
Super Mario has been here a long time. I interpreted his "laugh" as a type of nervous chuckle or a head shaking laughter in disbelief. I do not think he was literally laughing manically at KJ.

Hey now... play nice. Super Mario is a great fan and a well respected poster. I don't think he resembles anything near a dumbass. I can't say the same for Kareem though!!

Rep and Rep.

Blake
09-26-2010, 05:43 PM
You don't 'have' to do anything. Buy you look like a dumbass when you claim to be a fan and then laugh when a player on the team you are a supposed fan of does not play well. Sure, you don't owe me any explanation. Likewise, I don't owe you any slack when it comes to expressing my opinion on your comments.

Thanks for calling me a dumbass. Just because I am a fan doesn't mean I have to have blinders on like you. Jackson needs help. And it's up to the DC to make sure he doesn't get burned 3 games straight. Get over yourself and blind homerism, and see that we have a BIG problem in the 2ndary.

Wolf
09-26-2010, 05:47 PM
Jackson, I can't put a finger on it.. he is there but he is just not in position to make the play to knock the ball down..


is it just thinking too much or what?

Norg
09-26-2010, 05:50 PM
Hes young a smart kid and will get better chill out


and IMO he is better then Dunta Dunta got burned just has much has KJ does


But i didnt re watch the game was Mcain and Molden Switching out with KJ i thought i heard Mcains name over the speaker

Goatcheese
09-26-2010, 05:51 PM
http://www.bayareasportsguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Dunta-Robinson.JPG

Ah to see those dreads bouncing through the secondary again, giving up just 34 yards per game, or 0.88 yards per play in coverage (13th in the NFL).

Oh how I miss being a top 20 pass defense. :gun:

NitroGSXR
09-26-2010, 05:51 PM
Jackson, I can't put a finger on it.. he is there but he is just not in position to make the play to knock the ball down..


is it just thinking too much or what?

I think he needs shoes with more cleat to it. Kid kept falling down.

Hervoyel
09-26-2010, 05:54 PM
This looked mighty familiar to me.

Last season we were starting a pretty good 2 and a rookie on the other side at CB.

This year that rookie has become the "pretty good 2" and we have another rookie on the other side (Jackson).

Jackson is raw, no doubt about it. All that talk about Saban having him ready to hit the ground running appears to have been premature. He's got a few ordinary rookie issues and isn't ready to start in the NFL yet. It appears that our plan to cast off all of our lousy veteran corners and go into the season with just our lousy wet-behind-the-ears corners isn't so smart after all.

Now that I think about it that seems familiar too doesn't it? Aaron Glenn out the door, Philip Buchanon bringing youth and speed.... but I digress.

I think that after watching the defense for three weeks that the primary difference between last year and this year is Wilson not being the player he was last year for whatever reason and Cushing not being around to drop into coverage. Add to that the undeniable fact that Frank Bush seems to be setting them up much the same way Richard Smith did (probably to try and cover for the rookie and Cushing being gone) and we look bad in pass defense.

We're stuck right now. I worry that Wilson has hit some kind of veteran wall and "lost a step" to borrow a cliche. Nobody can find a good starting corner three weeks into the season without arranging a trade or something and the only time anybody trades away a starter-quality corner is when he's more trouble than he's worth or wants the GNP of a small country to play.

Glover Quin is barely holding his own right now.
Kareem Jackson is toast this year.
Eugene Wilson looks like he just turned 40.
Pollard can only knock the piss out of so much.
Brice McCain is getting abused at least as much as the other guys.

They're 5-6 yards away from receivers when those receivers catch the ball. They start the play 5-6 yards off the line of scrimmage. Somebody isn't showing a lot of confidence in our ready to play rookie. Either they're being overprotective or they're afraid we'll all see him as he really is and jump their butts for letting Dunta go.

I'm not going to freak though. He'll get better and Cush will come back. Things will sort themselves out. We need to beat Oakland and then get to the end of Cushings suspension at 3-1.

Before the season started there isn't a poster in here who wouldn't have taken that in a heartbeat. Lets get to 3-1, get Cush back and see what happens.

Mr. Texan
09-26-2010, 06:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkiRR3VPlpQ

cdollaz
09-26-2010, 06:01 PM
Thanks for calling me a dumbass. Just because I am a fan doesn't mean I have to have blinders on like you. Jackson needs help. And it's up to the DC to make sure he doesn't get burned 3 games straight. Get over yourself and blind homerism, and see that we have a BIG problem in the 2ndary.

A blind homer? Good one. Check my posts on here and you will see I am anything but as I will criticize as needed, even Kareem Jackson, who isn't playing well.

Well thought out (and well-expressed) critique is needed, but your "na na na na na, I told you so" original post came off as childish.

Goatcheese
09-26-2010, 06:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkiRR3VPlpQ

3rd game back from a near career ending injury. Not exactly the same as a young, healthy K-burnt getting torched for 100+ yards per game.

Mr. Texan
09-26-2010, 06:08 PM
3rd game back from a near career ending injury. Not exactly the same as a young, healthy K-burnt getting torched for 100+ yards per game.

at least k-burnt isn't making top 5 cb money :kitten:

cdollaz
09-26-2010, 06:11 PM
Jackson is a rookie in his 3rd game. As such, he has much more of a reason for his poor play today than the other Texans who played like crap. What's the excuse for Mario, Slaton, Winston, Schaub, etc.?

When it comes to calling out players, Jackson should be far down the list.

Hervoyel
09-26-2010, 06:12 PM
3rd game back from a near career ending injury. Not exactly the same as a young, healthy K-burnt getting torched for 100+ yards per game.

We get it. You want to have Dunta's baby. No change from last season but now he's gone and your love affair has ended. Nothing left to do but start working on clever nicknames for the rookie who replaced your guy.

The difference is upside. Jackson has some, Dunta is pretty close to fresh out.

Playmaker
09-26-2010, 06:20 PM
so the question is if Kareem continues to get burned and generally looking bad, at what point do you bench him if at all?

Goatcheese
09-26-2010, 06:23 PM
We get it. You want to have Dunta's baby. No change from last season but now he's gone and your love affair has ended. Nothing left to do but start working on clever nicknames for the rookie who replaced your guy.

The difference is upside. Jackson has some, Dunta is pretty close to fresh out.

Don't be a child. Stating that K-Burnt can't hold Robinson's "Pay MeRick" shoes isn't a love affair. It's the simple truth.

"X"-burnt has been the official Texans forum moniker for unsatisfactory corners since 2005 with P.Buch. It's been used for Buchanon, Faggins, Reeves, Robinson and now Jackson and probably soon to be Quin and McCain. Also acceptable would be calling K-Burnt one of the Petey's.

Hervoyel
09-26-2010, 06:25 PM
so the question is if Kareem continues to get burned and generally looking bad, at what point do you bench him if at all?

I don't know who you replace him with. They're all young, dumb, and full of... well you know. Now would be a good time for some patience. So far we've looked horrific against Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb, and Tony Romo.

No good QB's in that bunch right?

Next week they get to go up against Oakland and their boy Gradkowski. He of 9 of 19 passing for 130 yards and 1TD/1INT. Very mortal QB play on the horizon.

Lets see what happens.

Hervoyel
09-26-2010, 06:30 PM
Don't be a child. Stating that K-Burnt can't hold Robinson's "Pay MeRick" shoes isn't a love affair. It's the simple truth.

"X"-burnt has been the official Texans forum moniker for unsatisfactory corners since 2005 with P.Buch. It's been used for Buchanon, Faggins, Reeves, Robinson and now Jackson and probably soon to be Quin and McCain. Also acceptable would be calling K-Burnt one of the Petey's.

Look, I've been reading your posts about Dunta for well over a year now and I know exactly how you feel about the man and the way many posters in here view him. You fought a good fight but there was no love for your boy in the crowd and now you think that because the rookie the Texans replaced him with is playing like a guy with three games against three Pro Bowl QB's to his credit it's time to drag out the big "I Told You So" sign.

Your lament on missing his flowing dreads in the secondary was touching.

devo-x
09-26-2010, 06:33 PM
What about Molden at CB and Nolan at FS?

Playmaker
09-26-2010, 06:33 PM
I don't know who you replace him with. They're all young, dumb, and full of... well you know. Now would be a good time for some patience. So far we've looked horrific against Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb, and Tony Romo.

No good QB's in that bunch right?

Next week they get to go up against Oakland and their boy Gradkowski. He of 9 of 19 passing for 130 yards and 1TD/1INT. Very mortal QB play on the horizon.

Lets see what happens.

Here's a down the road question: playoff teams generally won't have a QB like Grad. What does that say about our playoff chances if we make it if at all with him and the rest of our secondary (save Pollard).

KJ just looks overwhelmed at times. Bad technique? Have we overrated him as far as what Kubes thinks he can do with a rookie CB?

Hervoyel
09-26-2010, 06:39 PM
Of course they don't usually have someone like Gradkowski. You have to start building experience somewhere and a steady diet of "Roasted alive by another All-Pro" isn't going to be good for the mans game. He needs to get in there and win a few and build on that. He's going to look overwhelmed a lot of the time but if he's still looking lost against Oakland then we've bigger problems than the obvious "Our rookie first rounder can't handle Peyton Manning & Co. or Tony Romo & Co."

Wolf
09-26-2010, 06:43 PM
“That’s a part of the league,” Kubiak said. “I think Kareem has a lot of confidence as a person and as a player. People are going to come after him. He’s young, they’re all young. It’s not just Kareem. He’s going to have to step up to the plate. That’s the way we’re going and we’ve got to find a way to get it done.”

Cowboys receivers repeatedly got behind the Texans’ defense. Dallas was leading 10-3 when Williams caught a 15-yard touchdown pass and he broke away down the sidelines in the fourth quarter for his 63-yard score.

“It was a tough day, another day we gave up big plays,” Jackson said. “We’ve got to go out and correct it. That’s all that can be said.

It’s definitely a learning experience. For me, playing like that, it’s definitely a learning experience. We’ve got to correct it.”

It was a disappointing afternoon for the Texans, who were trying to make their first 3-0 start. They beat the Cowboys in the preseason.

“They didn’t do anything we didn’t expect,” Quin said. “We had them in third and longs and they made the plays. That’s something we have to get better at. It’s an issue. It’s on us as a team and as a defense. We’ve got to get it fixed.

“They ran the same stuff as in the preseason. They just made plays.”

The defense isn’t using youth as an excuse.

“We need to answer this game here and shut up everybody and go out and play,” Quin said. “We are young group but we’ve still got to make plays.”

The Texans gave up big passing yards in their first two games but they won. That doesn’t satisfy McCain.


http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Young-defensive-secondary-burned/f611965e-8ba3-467c-84c2-a08ab9629947

Goatcheese
09-26-2010, 06:49 PM
Look, I've been reading your posts about Dunta for well over a year now and I know exactly how you feel about the man and the way many posters in here view him. You fought a good fight but there was no love for your boy in the crowd and now you think that because the rookie the Texans replaced him with is playing like a guy with three games against three Pro Bowl QB's to his credit it's time to drag out the big "I Told You So" sign.

Your lament on missing his flowing dreads in the secondary was touching.

Yes, I did in fact think D-Rob was an above average corner and the Texans were stupid to let him go for nothing when they could have kept him for another season with no commitment.

I was also one of the few back in spring 2009 who balked at giving D-Rob a huge pay day and got some pretty harsh responses to my comments about fans overrating him. Well, until he held out. Then the fans burned their Robinson gear and decided he could do nothing right.

I think some of the people who spammed every D-Rob thread with crap about being able to easily replace him with an UDFA do in fact deserve a great big "I TOLD YOU SO!"

I haven't given up on K-Burnt... er Jackon.. yet. He's a rookie and can(and will) get better with time.

not like he could get much worse :whip:

silvrhand
09-26-2010, 06:49 PM
Lack of bad pass rush, I mean how long do you give a Pro Bowl QB time to throw in the first three games. We have *NEVER* had a good pass rush which exposes our secondary.

thunderkyss
09-26-2010, 07:13 PM
Hey, he didn't look so hot today huh? I'll step up. I thought Kareem Jackson was all that and a bag of potato chips. :snap:

This is where I'm at. He wasn't great, but again, not nearly as bad as some would have you believe. I would say there were probably 3 bad plays out of Kareem Jackson today & that ain't bad for his third game ever.

GQ is still my boy. He's a true corner, IMHO best we've had in at least 5 years.

LBs don't know how to cover. Or they simply can't do it. That is our biggest problem in pass defense. When Cushing gets back, things will get a lot better.

Eugene Wilson is probably done. Look for Barber or Nolan to start next week. I thought Nolan was going in, after that RW touchdown, it looked like they were talking him up. I was surprised to see Barber.

We played more press coverage today, than we have in a long time. I don't really understand that decision considering Dallas' receivers are most likely the biggest more physical receivers we've seen yet.

KJ will be fine.

buddyboy
09-26-2010, 07:13 PM
Is it really funny?:thumbdown

A blind homer? Good one. Check my posts on here and you will see I am anything but as I will criticize as needed, even Kareem Jackson, who isn't playing well.

Well thought out (and well-expressed) critique is needed, but your "na na na na na, I told you so" original post came off as childish.

I agree. I don't care how much of a "well respected poster" someone is, there's no need for "haha, i told you so" threads, especially when it's tearing down one of our own players.

In regards to the topic, Kareem's a rookie. I don't know of anyone who expected him to come out, play lights out his first thee games against Manning, McNabb, and Romo (who this game looked spectacular).

TexCanada
09-26-2010, 07:21 PM
I agree. I don't care how much of a "well respected poster" someone is, there's no need for "haha, i told you so" threads, especially when it's tearing down one of our own players.

In regards to the topic, Kareem's a rookie. I don't know of anyone who expected him to come out, play lights out his first thee games against Manning, McNabb, and Romo (who this game looked spectacular).

I really don't think he meant it as a cocky "i told you so" post. I think it was out of frustration, which is a completely expected feeling to have after our D has been lit up for 3 straight.

I still have huge hopes and expectations for KJ, and I think by the end of the year we will be happy we went through these growing pains to get him the experience. What we really need is a decent free safety to help these young corners out. Wilson had a sub-par performance today, and left KJ hung out to dry a couple of times.

burro
09-26-2010, 07:33 PM
Talk about a terrible outing for the secondary...absolute rubbish. That said, the real crime is in the defensive scheme. What's with having the CBs 5+ yards off the receivers on every play? It's obviously not helping anything and we need to start sticking people at the line - we need to play more physical football on defense. Also, there is only so much the secondary can do. Romo had days to throw the football and that's not acceptable.

DexmanC
09-26-2010, 07:37 PM
Talk about a terrible outing for the secondary...absolute rubbish. That said, the real crime is in the defensive scheme. What's with having the CBs 5+ yards off the receivers on every play? It's obviously not helping anything and we need to start sticking people at the line - we need to play more physical football on defense. Also, there is only so much the secondary can do. Romo had days to throw the football and that's not acceptable.

The scheme is played because our corners are not good at press coverage.
Roy Willams made the same simple move on two of our young corners and
burned both for touchdowns. If Roy Williams can burn you on press coverage,
so can MANY other wideouts.

burro
09-26-2010, 07:40 PM
The scheme is played because our corners are not good at press coverage.
Roy Willams made the same simple move on two of our young corners and
burned both for touchdowns. If Roy Williams can burn you on press coverage,
so can MANY other wideouts.

True as that may be at the moment, it's something we should be working on rather than just conceding a minimum of 5 yards on every two bit slant route.

DexmanC
09-26-2010, 07:43 PM
True as that may be at the moment, it's something we should be working on rather than just conceding a minimum of 5 yards on every two bit slant route.

Better to give up a touchdown in 15 plays, than a simple in/out stutter-step
and go route. It forces the QB to make the throw every time.

burro
09-26-2010, 07:48 PM
Better to give up a touchdown in 15 plays, than a simple in/out stutter-step
and go route. It forces the QB to make the throw every time.

I'm just looking at the way that both Washington and Dallas were able to drive on us. A lot of it is short underneath passes + YAC and our CBs getting burned on slant routes. Simply said, I don't think our current defensive structure is sustainable. We can't count on our offense to score 30 points every game.

Brandon420tx
09-26-2010, 07:51 PM
Remember the good old days when the corners used to be lined up 12 yards off the receiver?:runaway: 5 yards is a huge improvement in that area

dream_team
09-26-2010, 08:00 PM
Talk about a terrible outing for the secondary...absolute rubbish. That said, the real crime is in the defensive scheme. What's with having the CBs 5+ yards off the receivers on every play? It's obviously not helping anything and we need to start sticking people at the line - we need to play more physical football on defense. Also, there is only so much the secondary can do. Romo had days to throw the football and that's not acceptable.

Press coverage only works in two situations:
1) you have shutdown corners
or
2) the pass rush will get to the QB quick

unfortunately, Houston had neither today.

thunderkyss
09-26-2010, 08:25 PM
I'm rewatching the game. They are showing the first sack on Schaub. It was supposed to be a slant route to Andre, he gets inside of the corner, but Brooking (a LB) cuts under Andre, so Schaub can't throw him the ball. Schaub tries to scramble, but Butler already thinks the ball is gone, so he lets Ware go.

I'm just posting this, as an example of what a LB (Brooking) is supposed to do in coverage. Our Underneath coverage sucks, most people here wants to blame the secondary.... & our safeties aren't playing at a high level right now either. But our biggest problem, I think is the LBs. Getting Cushing back should help, but Demeco, Diles, & Adibi shouldn't be as non-existent as they have proven to be so far.

TexCanada
09-26-2010, 08:29 PM
I'm rewatching the game. They are showing the first sack on Schaub. It was supposed to be a slant route to Andre, he gets inside of the corner, but Brooking (a LB) cuts under Andre, so Schaub can't throw him the ball. Schaub tries to scramble, but Butler already thinks the ball is gone, so he lets Ware go.

I'm just posting this, as an example of what a LB (Brooking) is supposed to do in coverage. Our Underneath coverage sucks, most people here wants to blame the secondary.... & our safeties aren't playing at a high level right now either. But our biggest problem, I think is the LBs. Getting Cushing back should help, but Demeco, Diles, & Adibi shouldn't be as non-existent as they have proven to be so far.

Yes! There are maybe 2 guys in this entire league that can shut down a WR by themselves. KJ needs help, and he is going to need a lot of it until he gains more experience.

I still believe in KJ and I will stand by him during the tough times.

ObsiWan
09-26-2010, 08:32 PM
I'm rewatching the game. They are showing the first sack on Schaub. It was supposed to be a slant route to Andre, he gets inside of the corner, but Brooking (a LB) cuts under Andre, so Schaub can't throw him the ball. Schaub tries to scramble, but Butler already thinks the ball is gone, so he lets Ware go.

I'm just posting this, as an example of what a LB (Brooking) is supposed to do in coverage. Our Underneath coverage sucks, most people here wants to blame the secondary.... & our safeties aren't playing at a high level right now either. But our biggest problem, I think is the LBs. Getting Cushing back should help, but Demeco, Diles, & Adibi shouldn't be as non-existent as they have proven to be so far.

I guess my question would be why didn't Schaub see that coming and check to another play? I mean, in order for Brooking to be close enough to stop a slant (which is a 3-step drop and sling it play) he had to be shading to that side, right?

I need to watch that again myself...

leebigeztx
09-26-2010, 09:34 PM
My problem with the whole deal is the texans didnt replace robinsons talent nor reeves talent. Now i think jackson will be a good corner, but while the team is waiting,why not get cromartie or another vet corner as a hold over? Sheldon brown wouldve been a good holdover also. Its not just about the big 1st down jackson gave up, but his zone drops were terrible and his technique overral was poor. The lbs didnt have good drops either. The pass rush can never get there as quick as the wrs were getting open.

ObsiWan
09-26-2010, 09:51 PM
My problem with the whole deal is the texans didnt replace robinsons talent nor reeves talent. Now i think jackson will be a good corner, but while the team is waiting,why not get cromartie or another vet corner as a hold over? Sheldon brown wouldve been a good holdover also. Its not just about the big 1st down jackson gave up, but his zone drops were terrible and his technique overral was poor. The lbs didnt have good drops either. The pass rush can never get there as quick as the wrs were getting open.

Our LBs and safeties are tacklers first, cover guys second.

...a DISTANT second.

Our CBs aren't good enough to cover that up.

Until we get a consistent pass rush, coverage will suffer.

gtexan02
09-26-2010, 10:18 PM
Our LBs and safeties are tacklers first, cover guys second.

...a DISTANT second.

Our CBs aren't good enough to cover that up.

Until we get a consistent pass rush, coverage will suffer.

And until we get consistent coverage, our pass rush has no time to get into a rhythm or get to the QB.

Its a two way street

hradhak
09-26-2010, 10:24 PM
I agree that our linebackers did little to step into passing lanes in the middle slants. That's supposed to be the counter for when your team is going man coverage is to take away the passing lanes for slants and possible get a turnover.

I think that to some extent our defense didn't do such a bad job in the first half. When our offense just played like crap in the second half, the defense couldn't hold up.

ObsiWan
09-26-2010, 10:26 PM
And until we get consistent coverage, our pass rush has no time to get into a rhythm or get to the QB.

Its a two way street

No argument there. Sometimes sacks are due to pressure. Sometimes they're due to good coverage.

The question is: which part can be fixed most quickly? will our kiddie korners grow up and learn not to trip and fall or will we find a stud pass rusher - those Barwin replacement units ain't workin' - on the street to help Mario.

Both would be sweet.

PHAROAH
09-26-2010, 10:27 PM
I will say this in Kareem Jacksons defense the safeties are horrible in pass coverage on the back end and he has no help at all over the top. Bernard Pollard maybe great against the run be he can't cover fly and where was the other safety he was no where to be found. The Texans have to do something about the safety play in pass coverage and yes Kareem played horrible I will agree but he had no help on the back end.

PHAROAH
09-26-2010, 10:29 PM
The defense is just horrible and most of it is play calling and a young secondary.

thunderkyss
09-26-2010, 10:36 PM
After Roy Williams beat McCain for the TD (16-3 Cowboys) Aikman believes McCain was questioning an official about offensive pass interference. I believe he was asking Wilson, "WTF" Wilson was late, and took a bad, bad angle to be able to help McCain. Roy is to tall for him anyway. He gets beat off the line, and trails him in under coverage. Looks like he expected safety help over the top.

McCain did just give up a big play to Dez Bryant on the other side of the field though. It was good coverage, but a perfect pass by Romo & a great catch by Bryant, as McCain was right there with him.

Jeff S.
09-26-2010, 10:45 PM
After three games last year we were panicked (rightly) over the run defense. I can only hope that Bush/Kubiak/Smith can pull another miracle out of their azzes. John Harris: "No pass rush and bad corners mean you'll be 9-7 again." Ugh.

They've GOT to start getting consistent pressure; got to get someone opposite Mario.

Blake
09-26-2010, 10:50 PM
A blind homer? Good one. Check my posts on here and you will see I am anything but as I will criticize as needed, even Kareem Jackson, who isn't playing well.

Well thought out (and well-expressed) critique is needed, but your "na na na na na, I told you so" original post came off as childish.

Well maybe you should realize the kind of poster I am, before hurling insults to people. This post is more out of frustration with our secondary.

And I will disagree that the pass rush is the problem. The 2ndary has been slow to react, and I think immaturity and exp. is part of the problem.

The most experience corner we have is 3rd year Molden. And I think franchising Dunta for another year would be worth its weight in gold with his experience alone.

Blake
09-26-2010, 10:53 PM
And until we get consistent coverage, our pass rush has no time to get into a rhythm or get to the QB.

Its a two way street

Good post. I thought it was fairly obvious that if a QB can get off a pass in under 2 seconds all game, that the coverage is weak. How is the pass rush supposed to get to the QB in 2 seconds?

Great post gtexan. Rep.

playa465
09-26-2010, 10:54 PM
Is it really funny?:thumbdown

My reply is not directed at Super Mario being a fan, I know he is and has been on this board forever...Its toward the idea that KJ is getting consistently toasted as not being funny, even if it is meant in jest...its only 3 games and luckily we are 2-1...but how long are we going to wait for him to grow up? This is the year we should be in the playoffs and the pass D has been atrocious, he needs veteran guidance at CB (even if the vet isn't all that). Someone that can give him the lil ends and outs of playing the position; like what to look for and how to recognize different things in coverage, pre-snap reads and how to adjust...this is where leadership and experience comes in. As others have noted that the safety play is bad too and I understand, but the bottom line is we need to see a change...the change could be in scheme, execution, better play or personnel.

beerlover
09-26-2010, 11:38 PM
that be-littled Dallas offensive line played inspired football, kudos to them because Mario & rest of the Texans pass rush was non-existant, hence Romo had plenty time, plenty weapons to pick apart the Texans young secondary. Kareem is just one of three or four corners who got toasted in coverage.

while I have not been pleased with his recovery speed or awareness of the ball in flight does not mean he's not learning on the fly & will learn quickly how to adapt to the size & speed of the NFL, otherwise he will not be around for his second, lucrative contract.

thunderkyss
09-27-2010, 08:00 PM
Well maybe you should realize the kind of poster I am, before hurling insults to people. This post is more out of frustration with our secondary.

And I will disagree that the pass rush is the problem. The 2ndary has been slow to react, and I think immaturity and exp. is part of the problem.

The most experience corner we have is 3rd year Molden. And I think franchising Dunta for another year would be worth its weight in gold with his experience alone.

If it were left to the individual, I would expect one of the guys to break on the ball.. I would expect to have seen one of them get beat deep, because they attacked the ball in the air, and missed.

But we don't see that. That leads me to believe it's the coaching.

But it doesn't make sense, look at Pollard, & look at Brandon Flowers in KC... neither of those guys look like they were produced in whatever it is we've got working in H-Town.

Blake
11-09-2010, 09:24 AM
So have we figured out if its a poor pass rush or bad coaching and talent in the secondary?

hobie
11-09-2010, 09:28 AM
So have we figured out if its a poor pass rush or bad coaching and talent in the secondary?

Or what about.... All of the above ??!!

Blake
11-09-2010, 09:32 AM
So if it is coaching is it Frank Bush, Ray Rhodes, David Gibbs or Gary Kubiak?

Finding out who is responsible for what in the Texans organization is like figuring out a rubix cube.

Ole Miss Texan
11-09-2010, 09:53 AM
So if it is coaching is it Frank Bush, Ray Rhodes, David Gibbs or Gary Kubiak?

Finding out who is responsible for what in the Texans organization is like figuring out a rubix cube.

The only thing is with the rubix cube, you can switch the stickers around.

HOU-TEX
11-09-2010, 09:57 AM
The only thing is with the rubix cube, you can switch the stickers around.

Actually, I used to take it apart and put it back together in the correct positions. :)

Beer and Metal
11-09-2010, 10:03 AM
Actually, I used to take it apart and put it back together in the correct positions. :)

I used to do the same thing. I could reassemble one in about a minute and a half.

Blake
11-09-2010, 10:04 AM
So are yall saying we should reassemble KJ?

HOU-TEX
11-09-2010, 10:10 AM
So are yall saying we should reassemble KJ?

:hmmm: Sure, I mean we've done it before with Steve Austin and Jaime Sommers. Why can't we give it another shot, but with todays technology.

silvrhand
11-09-2010, 10:24 AM
So have we figured out if its a poor pass rush or bad coaching and talent in the secondary?

It's everything..

- safeties biting on underneath routes not providing over the top coverage
- DL not getting enough pressure and allowing QB's to stand back there.
- vanilla package that a college QB could read on snap.
- LB's just sucking
- Us playing some of the best QB/TE combo's in the NFL this year..
- corners providing bad coverage
- coaches setting them up for failure with no alternatives.

Honestly if you pull KJ and Quin both have been really bad, who are we going to put in there, there in lies the biggest problem we have noone else. And that blames lays on the coaches as they were the ones that made that decision.

We REALLY need a FS...

Goatcheese
11-09-2010, 10:46 AM
I've been really tough on KJ, but a lot of it is that they're just asking him to do too much and he's not ready for it. If we had a good quality vet who could hold down the other corner Bush could roll the coverage to KJ's side and help protect him from the worst of his rookie blunders. We don't so he's alone on Jackson island with a tribe of cannibalistic receivers looking to set him on fire and laugh at him while he burns.

RTP2110
11-09-2010, 10:46 AM
It's everything..

- safeties biting on underneath routes not providing over the top coverage
- DL not getting enough pressure and allowing QB's to stand back there.
- vanilla package that a college QB could read on snap.
- LB's just sucking
- Us playing some of the best QB/TE combo's in the NFL this year..
- corners providing bad coverage
- coaches setting them up for failure with no alternatives.

Honestly if you pull KJ and Quin both have been really bad, who are we going to put in there, there in lies the biggest problem we have noone else. And that blames lays on the coaches as they were the ones that made that decision.

We REALLY need a FS...


The part in bold is what gets me the most. There was a quote from Reggie Wayne saying that he loves playing Houston's defense because you always know where they're going to be. Steve Young was going on and on during the MNF pregame show about how he would have loved to gone up against our defense in his playing days. Young's point was that the defense doesn't challenge QB's mentally. He made that exact statement several times.

Blake
11-09-2010, 10:59 AM
I've been really tough on KJ, but a lot of it is that they're just asking him to do too much and he's not ready for it. If we had a good quality vet who could hold down the other corner Bush could roll the coverage to KJ's side and help protect him from the worst of his rookie blunders. We don't so he's alone on Jackson island with a tribe of cannibalistic receivers looking to set him on fire and laugh at him while he burns.

Good post. I agree that Jackson should be getting rolled coverage to his side. He is simply not good enough (just a rookie) to be 1 on 1 on an island.

If you watch the video of the 2 touch downs to Tutu, both times the safety play has let him down.

55 yard TD: Tutu gives Jackson a move and he bites hard. Only problem is that Eugene Wilson has decided to try and jump the wide open TE crossing underneath, leaving nothing but Jackson and Quin in Tutu's wake. Aren't safeties taught to keep the play in front of them? Basic training.

28 yard TD: Again Tutu gives him a move to get behind Jackson, and this time Troy Nolan is so slow to see the play develop that even though he wasn't covering anyone, he was late, and Tutu got behind the both of them. Jackson needs to do a better job of slowing down the WR he is on to allow the safety enough time to read and react. The safety needs to do a better job of being in position to help even if the WR gets by Jackson easily.

So you cannot deny that it is a combo of putting an untested rookie out wide with virtually zero help at safety. At least on these 2 plays.

LINK (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=seyi%20ajirotutu%20touchdown&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=vid:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wv)

SheTexan
11-09-2010, 11:07 AM
Kubiak insist on playing him, REGARDLESS!! He's willing to sacrifice a possible playoff season, the hopes and dreams of the rest of the team, fan loyalty, just to prove that he can do what he wants. Lets not forget to mention the emotional and mental impact this season might have on KJ IF we don't make the playoffs. Kubiak is a hardheaded BASTARD, unwilling to admit he might have made a mistake in the way he is training KJ!! If he is being influence by Bush, then we might as well hang it up and start looking at the draft. Personally, I detest this type of mentality. I SAID IT SO THATS THE WAY ITS GONNA BE!!! That's just BS, IMHO!!

HTown2ATX
11-09-2010, 11:54 AM
Barely Competent reciever scores again...........












Kareem Jackson falls down.



:lol: whoever did that bit on the whiner line was effing brilliant. Love the 1930's voice.

Norg
11-09-2010, 12:00 PM
u know else isnt helping the SS the SS helps the CB 2 and Pollard Is getting Burned all the time

HuttoKarl
11-09-2010, 12:24 PM
The secondary isn't good enough to give the pass rush time to get there. The pass rush isn't good enough to help our secondary out.

We need upgrades at DT, S, CB, LB and we need a defensive coordinator who isn't the most vanilla playcaller in the damn world. Our defense has two looks...look down at the ground and hang head in shame and look at the other team score.

Norg
11-09-2010, 12:28 PM
we needs to switch to a 3-4 next year


and draft the fattest NASTY NT we can FIND

thunderkyss
11-09-2010, 12:36 PM
Kubiak insist on playing him, REGARDLESS!! He's willing to sacrifice a possible playoff season...

Truth is, that KJ has made some good plays as well. Getting burnt & beat does seem to stand out, & it does seem to happen with some regularity, but the kid has played well at times, it hasn't been all bad.

There were veteran corners getting beat badly all night last night in the Cincy/Steelers game. It happens with regularity every Sunday in the NFL.

The Titans, a team whose defense gets respect around here, didn't do any better against pretty much the same team.

SheTexan
11-09-2010, 01:30 PM
Truth is, that KJ has made some good plays as well. Getting burnt & beat does seem to stand out, & it does seem to happen with some regularity, but the kid has played well at times, it hasn't been all bad.

There were veteran corners getting beat badly all night last night in the Cincy/Steelers game. It happens with regularity every Sunday in the NFL.

The Titans, a team whose defense gets respect around here, didn't do any better against pretty much the same team.


I'm not dissing KJ thunder! The kid is trying HARD, but, he's just to inexperienced to go at it 100% of the time. JMO. It's like me tossing a new grad into a patients room and telling her to figure out on her own what to do. I don't believe in the "on the job training" concept. See one, do one, teach one sort of thing. Who is mentoring this young man? Pollard? I love Pollards intensity, but, he's only been with the team one year. The kid has been tossed into the frying pan, and Kubes keeps turning up the heat. BURN out after one year!

silvrhand
11-09-2010, 01:32 PM
we needs to switch to a 3-4 next year


and draft the fattest NASTY NT we can FIND

I don't see how switching to a 3-4 defense is going to fix the fact that our secondary fails basic principles of deeper than the deepest man in man underneath 2 deep zone..

silvrhand
11-09-2010, 01:36 PM
I'm not dissing KJ thunder! The kid is trying HARD, but, he's just to inexperienced to go at it 100% of the time. JMO. It's like me tossing a new grad into a patients room and telling her to figure out on her own what to do. I don't believe in the "on the job training" concept. See one, do one, teach one sort of thing. Who is mentoring this young man? Pollard? I love Pollards intensity, but, he's only been with the team one year. The kid has been tossed into the frying pan, and Kubes keeps turning up the heat. BURN out after one year!

Our WHOLE secondary is playing bad as a team... Replacing one individual isn't going to really help unless they are pro bowl players.

- Pollard couldn't cover himself laying in a bed..
- Pollard is missing tackles he made last year
- Eugene can't figure out how to provide over the top coverage
- KJ can't keep from falling down, and then gets burnt bad..
- Quin can't tackle anyone, including the receivers..

I hate to say this but we need some speed at SS/FS pollard/wilson just aren't fast enough or have that ballhawk skills we need out there.

Quin/KJ seem to have promise, but still coming along..

eriadoc
11-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Look, y'all have to remember that KJ was the most NFL ready CB in the draft. Kubiak said so.

badboy
11-09-2010, 02:36 PM
Our FS should be assigned to support KJ every play. Wilson needs to allow Pollard to succeed or fail on his own. Bush has said (as have other DC before him) that the D game plan was reduced to allow the young guys to absorb it. Cool, but if they ain't understanding the basic package then we are drafting the wrong guys. What happened to all the folks saying KJ was NFL ready because he played @ Alabama? I have not seen a first round CB so ill prepared in my life. He attempts to bump the WR almost every play and is way to often off balanced as the WR eludes him. Then he does not have the hip swivle or the "catch up speed" as I identified shortly after he was drafted. Why has not McMannis gotten some plays or even Moldin? The latter is no longer recovering and he was drafted as having the perfect size/speed ratio for Corner.
If the QB is taking a 1 step drop and zinging the ball it does not matter who we have on D line. We need a cover CB and a much better FS. A SS who could cover would not hurt.

Signed, Frustrated in Seabrook

BigBull17
11-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Our FS should be assigned to support KJ every play. Wilson needs to allow Pollard to succeed or fail on his own. Bush has said (as have other DC before him) that the D game plan was reduced to allow the young guys to absorb it. Cool, but if they ain't understanding the basic package then we are drafting the wrong guys. What happened to all the folks saying KJ was NFL ready because he played @ Alabama? I have not seen a first round CB so ill prepared in my life. He attempts to bump the WR almost every play and is way to often off balanced as the WR eludes him. Then he does not have the hip swivle or the "catch up speed" as I identified shortly after he was drafted. Why has not McMannis gotten some plays or even Moldin? The latter is no longer recovering and he was drafted as having the perfect size/speed ratio for Corner.
If the QB is taking a 1 step drop and zinging the ball it does not matter who we have on D line. We need a cover CB and a much better FS. A SS who could cover would not hurt.

Signed, Frustrated in Seabrook

Reduced to everyone stand perfectly still then refuse to cover anyone?

TexanSam
11-09-2010, 02:39 PM
Kareem Jackson is almost Matt Stevens bad

HTown2ATX
11-09-2010, 02:53 PM
Kareem Jackson is almost Matt Stevens bad

Dude.....I wouldn't have even gone THAT far......lol

:backsout:

CloakNNNdagger
11-09-2010, 03:52 PM
Our FS should be assigned to support KJ every play. Wilson needs to allow Pollard to succeed or fail on his own. Bush has said (as have other DC before him) that the D game plan was reduced to allow the young guys to absorb it. Cool, but if they ain't understanding the basic package then we are drafting the wrong guys. What happened to all the folks saying KJ was NFL ready because he played @ Alabama? I have not seen a first round CB so ill prepared in my life. He attempts to bump the WR almost every play and is way to often off balanced as the WR eludes him. Then he does not have the hip swivle or the "catch up speed" as I identified shortly after he was drafted. Why has not McMannis gotten some plays or even Moldin? The latter is no longer recovering and he was drafted as having the perfect size/speed ratio for Corner.
If the QB is taking a 1 step drop and zinging the ball it does not matter who we have on D line. We need a cover CB and a much better FS. A SS who could cover would not hurt.

Signed, Frustrated in Seabrook


The problem with that suggestion is that it seems that everyone on the D, especially on the secondary, looks like they need someone assigned to them for support on every play.

TexCanada
11-09-2010, 04:12 PM
The problem with that suggestion is that it seems that everyone on the D, especially on the secondary, looks like they need someone assigned to them for support on every play.

Exactly. If KJ is getting help then they will just throw at Quin, or at one of their wide open TEs or RBs. And its not like the pocket is collapsing any time soon forcing them to make decisions quickly.

hot pickle
11-09-2010, 05:24 PM
i still like KJ... fact is he needs help!! and theres no one in our secondary that can do that

Hervoyel
11-09-2010, 05:31 PM
What I find incomprehensible is that Kubiak talks like he really thinks he's helping Kareem by basically getting him destroyed once a week. He reminds me of Dom Capers thinking he was showing the rest of the team that David Carr was a leader and leaving him out there to be crushed by the Chargers in the second game of the 2002 season.

I'm thinking a CB with his confidence broken is probably about as useful as a QB who goes fetal the moment he can't find his safety valve.

JB
11-09-2010, 05:33 PM
What I find incomprehensible is that Kubiak talks like he really thinks he's helping Kareem by basically getting him destroyed once a week. He reminds me of Dom Capers thinking he was showing the rest of the team that David Carr was a leader and leaving him out there to be crushed by the Chargers in the second game of the 2002 season.

I'm thinking a CB with his confidence broken is probably about as useful as a QB who goes fetal the moment he can't find his safety valve.

Unfortunately, it will take quite a bit of time to know which way he is going...

No More 8-8's
11-09-2010, 05:34 PM
Kareem Jackson keeps this up, he will be out of the leage in 2 years.

scourge
11-09-2010, 05:46 PM
Kareem Jackson is almost Matt Stevens bad

Someone else said this in another thread regarding our secondary in general. My response below still applies and will be of great assistance.


This may help your condition... (http://www.menningerclinic.com/)

76Texan
11-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Truth is, that KJ has made some good plays as well. Getting burnt & beat does seem to stand out, & it does seem to happen with some regularity, but the kid has played well at times, it hasn't been all bad.

There were veteran corners getting beat badly all night last night in the Cincy/Steelers game. It happens with regularity every Sunday in the NFL.

The Titans, a team whose defense gets respect around here, didn't do any better against pretty much the same team.

Quentin Jammer was the #5 overall pick in 2002 for the Chargers... and look what happened?

He had problem with our receivers just the same! (Same as the other CB, Cason. Same as Quin.) Overall, I'm not sure who had the worse day out there among the 4 starting CBs. It will need a much closer look (but I don't think KJ was the worse CB out there that day, even if it appears to be so on the surface.)

It's the fans' normal reaction when the team loses to make something bigger than it really is.

The first TD was a breakdown by the Texans in a 3-deep coverage.
I would say Quin and Wilson may (or may not) have more responsibilty than KJ on that one.

The second TD was KJ's bad.
(However, I'm not sure I like the D-call on that play. I will try to get to that later.)

scourge
11-09-2010, 05:55 PM
i still like KJ... fact is he needs help!! and theres no one in our secondary that can do that

I think KJ would thrive in a Cover-2/Tampa-2 based system. As it is, he has a long way to go if he doesn't get help over the top more often. His footwork obviously needs help, too. Even though it may not be as bad as it seems, I always think I see him trip over himself at least once per game.

TimeKiller
11-09-2010, 05:56 PM
We should move Quin and Jackson back to FS/SS and draft the hell outta some fast CBs next year.

I can see the talent on occasion. The guy is lost though. The game is moving too fast for him and it's well past the point to reduce his time. McCain, Molden, McMannis all need to see the field and show us what they got. What's the worst that could happen? They give up 100 yards and 2 td's to a guy with 6 career receptions and a funny name? Ok....

silvrhand
11-09-2010, 06:22 PM
We should move Quin and Jackson back to FS/SS and draft the hell outta some fast CBs next year.

I can see the talent on occasion. The guy is lost though. The game is moving too fast for him and it's well past the point to reduce his time. McCain, Molden, McMannis all need to see the field and show us what they got. What's the worst that could happen? They give up 100 yards and 2 td's to a guy with 6 career receptions and a funny name? Ok....

ROFL, the game always moves so fast for you as a rookie, very few make the transition from college CB to NFL CB in a single game... You guys expect too much.

thunderkyss
11-09-2010, 06:22 PM
We should move Quin and Jackson back to FS/SS and draft the hell outta some fast CBs next year.


I really like this idea.

McCain, McMannis, & Molden would be our starting corners, & Pollard, Nolan & Wilson will ride the pine.

steelbtexan
11-09-2010, 06:23 PM
We should move Quin and Jackson back to FS/SS and draft the hell outta some fast CBs next year.

I can see the talent on occasion. The guy is lost though. The game is moving too fast for him and it's well past the point to reduce his time. McCain, Molden, McMannis all need to see the field and show us what they got. What's the worst that could happen? They give up 100 yards and 2 td's to a guy with 6 career receptions and a funny name? Ok....

I'm all for this. Quin was a top rated FS coming out of last yrs draft class.

Sign Bailey in FA and draft Aaron Williams. Then move Quin and Jackson to the S spots and the secondary will be much improved. IMHO

silvrhand
11-09-2010, 06:33 PM
We should move Quin and Jackson back to FS/SS and draft the hell outta some fast CBs next year.

I can see the talent on occasion. The guy is lost though. The game is moving too fast for him and it's well past the point to reduce his time. McCain, Molden, McMannis all need to see the field and show us what they got. What's the worst that could happen? They give up 100 yards and 2 td's to a guy with 6 career receptions and a funny name? Ok....

FYI.. top 40 yard times for receivers during the combine:

Ghee, Brandon 4.45
Cook, Chris 4.46
Owusu-Ansah, Akwasi 4.47
Pender, David 4.47
Jackson, Kareem 4.48
McCourty, Devin 4.48
Thomas, Kevin 4.48

Yah he sucks he's slower than every corner.. you guys need to get an idea of what it takes to play CB in the NFL.

:mariopalm:

JB
11-09-2010, 06:46 PM
We should move Quin and Jackson back to FS/SS and draft the hell outta some fast CBs next year.

I can see the talent on occasion. The guy is lost though. The game is moving too fast for him and it's well past the point to reduce his time. McCain, Molden, McMannis all need to see the field and show us what they got. What's the worst that could happen? They give up 100 yards and 2 td's to a guy with 6 career receptions and a funny name? Ok....

I really like this idea.

McCain, McMannis, & Molden would be our starting corners, & Pollard, Nolan & Wilson will ride the pine.

I'm all for this. Quin was a top rated FS coming out of last yrs draft class.

Sign Bailey in FA and draft Aaron Williams. Then move Quin and Jackson to the S spots and the secondary will be much improved. IMHO

Really? All the griping because we have a young secondary, and you want to dump it and go even younger?

If you could show me one rookie that made the pro-bowl as a CB, then maybe I could understand.

I think the problem is that fans think that every player on the roster should be a pro bowler, and when there not, that just gives us something to ***** about.

Realism is a foreign word to fanatics.

drs23
11-09-2010, 06:54 PM
Really? All the griping because we have a young secondary, and you want to dump it and go even younger?

If you could show me one rookie that made the pro-bowl as a CB, then maybe I could understand.

I think the problem is that fans think that every player on the roster should be a pro bowler, and when there not, that just gives us something to ***** about.

Realism is a foreign word to fanatics.

Yeah, no shit. He's made mistakes. I think he'll do nothing but get better.

Texanmike02
11-09-2010, 07:11 PM
FYI.. top 40 yard times for receivers during the combine:

Ghee, Brandon 4.45
Cook, Chris 4.46
Owusu-Ansah, Akwasi 4.47
Pender, David 4.47
Jackson, Kareem 4.48
McCourty, Devin 4.48
Thomas, Kevin 4.48

Yah he sucks he's slower than every corner.. you guys need to get an idea of what it takes to play CB in the NFL.

:mariopalm:

I think he's saying the game is happening faster than it does in college.. Not physical speed but the ability to recognize routes etc. I could be wrong but I think he's talking about the same thing they say when QBs come into the league and need some time to "catch up with the speed of the game".

Mike

steelbtexan
11-09-2010, 07:52 PM
Kubiak insist on playing him, REGARDLESS!! He's willing to sacrifice a possible playoff season, the hopes and dreams of the rest of the team, fan loyalty, just to prove that he can do what he wants. Lets not forget to mention the emotional and mental impact this season might have on KJ IF we don't make the playoffs. Kubiak is a hardheaded BASTARD, unwilling to admit he might have made a mistake in the way he is training KJ!! If he is being influence by Bush, then we might as well hang it up and start looking at the draft. Personally, I detest this type of mentality. I SAID IT SO THATS THE WAY ITS GONNA BE!!! That's just BS, IMHO!!

Wow

What turned you against Kubes. You used to be one of his biggest supporters.

When great fans like you start turning against the current regime they're in trouble.

sakebomb
11-09-2010, 09:01 PM
How did the Longhorns not throw for 400 yards against Alabama last year? Didn't they watch the game film?

TimeKiller
11-09-2010, 10:40 PM
FYI.. top 40 yard times for receivers during the combine:

Ghee, Brandon 4.45
Cook, Chris 4.46
Owusu-Ansah, Akwasi 4.47
Pender, David 4.47
Jackson, Kareem 4.48
McCourty, Devin 4.48
Thomas, Kevin 4.48

Yah he sucks he's slower than every corner.. you guys need to get an idea of what it takes to play CB in the NFL.

:mariopalm:

Did I say he was slow? No I didn't.

The game moves too fast for him. Recognition, adjustment, learning from mistakes, it's all too fast for him. Nothing was implied about his physical speed so take your uppity and downitty.

Really? All the griping because we have a young secondary, and you want to dump it and go even younger?
Personally, I don't think it's age that makes our secondary suck. I think it's mostly scheme and partly coaching. Quin is a free safety. He can cover and tackle but doesn't really have the top gear speed to keep with guys across or down the field from the line.

If you could show me one rookie that made the pro-bowl as a CB, then maybe I could understand.
Did anyone ask for probowl? Sure would be nice but I think we'd all be content with average.

I think the problem is that fans think that every player on the roster should be a pro bowler, and when there not, that just gives us something to ***** about.

Realism is a foreign word to fanatics.

32nd in the NFL. Literally could not be worse unless they formed a new team that also happened to suck at a staggering level.

Realism.

Really...32nd in the NFL. That's what's real. KJ can't cover practice squaders. That's real. That's a real problem, it's happening. Shield your eyes if you wish but don't even act like I'm bitching that they keep KJ on the field when it's consistently REALLY bad.

HJam72
11-09-2010, 10:45 PM
I'm all for this. Quin was a top rated FS coming out of last yrs draft class.

Sign Bailey in FA and draft Aaron Williams. Then move Quin and Jackson to the S spots and the secondary will be much improved. IMHO

&**&((&(& *(&(()_*&^in (*&)^(*&^(*&^ Bulls&*(!!!!!!!!


Great, so we got a legitimate FS on this team playing the wrong position and screwing that up! When are these morons gonna realize that we need a real FS?....and not just to go screw up at playing CB. Geeeeeeez!!!!!!!!!!

Get Wilson off the field!

I wanna see Quinn @ FS YESTERDAY!

silvrhand
11-09-2010, 10:55 PM
Really...32nd in the NFL. That's what's real. KJ can't cover practice squaders. That's real. That's a real problem, it's happening. Shield your eyes if you wish but don't even act like I'm bitching that they keep KJ on the field when it's consistently REALLY bad.

Realism, who else are you going to put in there then?

leebigeztx
11-10-2010, 01:59 AM
The secondary isn't good enough to give the pass rush time to get there. The pass rush isn't good enough to help our secondary out.
We need upgrades at DT, S, CB, LB and we need a defensive coordinator who isn't the most vanilla playcaller in the damn world. Our defense has two looks...look down at the ground and hang head in shame and look at the other team score.

The voice of reason. The qb's are getting quick and easy targets because the db's are getting beat so quick and the lb's are leaving the windows wide open. What it really speaks of is the huge mistake the front office made in not replacing talent with talent. They knew they were not resigning robinson, so why not go get cromartie. Why keep molden over reeves? Why not sign a guy like ken lucas or trade for manning from carolina? Questions i was asking but never got answered.

76Texan
11-10-2010, 10:33 AM
Quentin Jammer was the #5 overall pick in 2002 for the Chargers... and look what happened?

He had problem with our receivers just the same! (Same as the other CB, Cason. Same as Quin.) Overall, I'm not sure who had the worse day out there among the 4 starting CBs. It will need a much closer look (but I don't think KJ was the worse CB out there that day, even if it appears to be so on the surface.)

It's the fans' normal reaction when the team loses to make something bigger than it really is.

The first TD was a breakdown by the Texans in a 3-deep coverage.
I would say Quin and Wilson may (or may not) have more responsibilty than KJ on that one.

The second TD was KJ's bad.
(However, I'm not sure I like the D-call on that play. I will try to get to that later.)

We ran a very similar play in the third quarter (around the 4:30 minute mark) on first and 10 from our 37. It was a play action pass off the run fake from the offset-I formation. (The Chargers play was also on first and 10 from their 44).
The Chargers were in the same 3-deep coverage.A lot of things were pretty much the same, except for the play of the centerfielder.
The Chargers' coverage was better than ours and it was still a 17-yd completion to JJ.
He had to go downstairs to catch the low ball from Schaub and did not have the chance for any yard after catch. (Both QB had zero pressure on them.)

Notice:
1. AJ can be found running a go route down the middle from the slot; Ajirotutu ran a skinny post from the outside, pretty much toward the same end point.
2. JJ ran a slant in just as the Charger's other receiver #88.
3. Their RCB dropped into his deep 1/3, jus as Quin did. Both were completely out of commission and cannot backup anybody.
4. Both defense sent 8 men into the box to play/blitz the run.
5. Their LCB dropped into his deep 1/3, just as KJ did, except he was not victimized by the long bomb.
6. Wilson, unlike their deep safety Weddle, broke to soon (you were supposed to break on the ball unless there's great communication in the secondary; ie. Quin slicing quickly to take Wilson's place as the centerfielder, for example.)
Wilson was on top the slant route even before Rivers went into his throwin motion.
The deep middle was wide open.
On the other hand, Weddle sliced over to check on AJ in the deep route; he didn't break on the slant until after Schaub had gone into his throwing motion.
He was the only one of the six DBs, IMO, that played it correctly.
From the Colts zone coverage playbook, I read that the three deep defenders "should" settle in the middle of their deep 1/3 (theses thirds can stretch or shrink horizontally, depending on where the two receivers line up) and break on the ball (when the QB goes into his throwing motion?) This was what all four CBs did.
Wilson did not, and therefore, left the deep seam wide open.
Weddle stretched his landmark toward where AJ was headed (which was a better way to play it, IMO; perhaps the playbook was simply suggesting a starting point.)
The following is one of the ways I think the play can be defended successfully:
Wilson comes up quickly to defend the slant (as he did); KJ does as he did to cover any underneath route by the receiver as well as manning the outside zone; Quin slices quickly in the deep middle and becomes the centerfielder, backing up both Wilson and KJ.

Hervoyel
11-10-2010, 10:37 AM
I don't think they expect too much. I think that Gary Kubiak expects too much out of his young corners. I think that he and Gibbs think they can just throw a couple of young guys back there with no credible veteran presence and that those two guys will just suddenly become good corners.

To borrow/twist a line from Lee Ermy "If God had wanted Kareem Jackson and Glover Quin to be a top notch secondary right out of the gate he'd have miracled them into one by now".

It was criminal to run all the veterans out of town (average as they may have been) if you ask me. We've seen this same series of events before too. Aaron Glenn gets sent packing and Dunta Robinson in his second season along with Philip Buchanon can't cover anybody in 2005. Lets go young again guys!

thunderkyss
11-10-2010, 11:33 AM
&**&((&(& *(&(()_*&^in (*&)^(*&^(*&^ Bulls&*(!!!!!!!!


Great, so we got a legitimate FS on this team playing the wrong position and screwing that up! When are these morons gonna realize that we need a real FS?....and not just to go screw up at playing CB. Geeeeeeez!!!!!!!!!!

Get Wilson off the field!

I wanna see Quinn @ FS YESTERDAY!

Quin has been playing very well at the CB position. He was a CB in college. Some "draft guru" didn't like his measurables... most probably his size & speed.

But he is doing a very good job for us at corner.

He was our best corner last year.

thunderkyss
11-10-2010, 11:51 AM
From the Colts zone coverage playbook, I read that the three deep defenders "should" settle in the middle of their deep 1/3 (theses thirds can stretch or shrink horizontally, depending on where the two receivers line up) and break on the ball (when the QB goes into his throwing motion?)

Do you have an actual "play-book" can I get a copy?

steelbtexan
11-10-2010, 11:56 AM
Really? All the griping because we have a young secondary, and you want to dump it and go even younger?

If you could show me one rookie that made the pro-bowl as a CB, then maybe I could understand.

I think the problem is that fans think that every player on the roster should be a pro bowler, and when there not, that just gives us something to ***** about.

Realism is a foreign word to fanatics.

You want to fix the secondary,

You bring in a guy like Bailey to teach the young guys (in this case Williams,Jackson and Quin) the ticks of the trade to playing CB in the NFL and you may have to over pay to get Bailey but he's worth it as a teacher who still is a competent CB. IMHO

It was Kirwan on Sirius that said Quin would be a better FS than CB in the NFL. I consider him to be a better jude of talent than Smithiak. IMHO Also other draft gurus were in agreement with Kirwan.

Tell me using your own eyes. Would Quins tackling ability make him the best FS on this team? Would playing FS also help mask his lack of speed? Do you consider Quin to be a heady player who's always in the right spot?

Moving Quin to FS would atleast give one above average player in the secondary (IMHO) and atleast eveybody would be aligned correctly. Therefore improving the secondary as a whole.

76Texan
11-10-2010, 12:10 PM
Do you have an actual "play-book" can I get a copy?

There are several of them online.
You can find them at various torrent sites.
They are in pdf format and it doens't take long to DL.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=football+playbook+torrents&go=&form=QBRE&qs=n&sk=&sc=8-17

thunderkyss
11-10-2010, 12:34 PM
You want to fix the secondary,

You bring in a guy like Bailey to teach the young guys (in this case Williams,Jackson and Quin) the ticks of the trade to playing CB in the NFL and you may have to over pay to get Bailey but he's worth it as a teacher who still is a competent CB. IMHO

I'll wait till the end of the season to see how Kareem has developed. I think too many people are putting too much in to this veteran teaching the young guy stuff.

First, we don't know that any vet we bring in would even be willing to teach anything.

Second, who taught Brandon Flowers & Brandon Carr all the "tricks of the trade?



It was Kirwan on Sirius that said Quin would be a better FS than CB in the NFL. I consider him to be a better jude of talent than Smithiak. IMHO Also other draft gurus were in agreement with Kirwan.

Nothing against Kirwan, but when has any NFL team paid Kirwan for his ability to judge talent?

Smith has gone up the ranks from scout to GM.

Tell me using your own eyes. Would Quins tackling ability make him the best FS on this team? Would playing FS also help mask his lack of speed? Do you consider Quin to be a heady player who's always in the right spot?

How often has Quin been beat?

Moving Quin to FS would atleast give one above average player in the secondary (IMHO) and atleast eveybody would be aligned correctly. Therefore improving the secondary as a whole.

I do agree that I like the idea of Quin moving to FS better than the idea of trotting Wilson out there again. Even better than sending Nolan back there.

I'd like to see What McManis or Molden can do at the corner spots as well.

Put the best 5 DBs on the field...... can't go wrong with that. I don't see Wilson in that group anymore.

eriadoc
11-10-2010, 02:05 PM
FYI.. top 40 yard times for receivers during the combine:

Ghee, Brandon 4.45
Cook, Chris 4.46
Owusu-Ansah, Akwasi 4.47
Pender, David 4.47
Jackson, Kareem 4.48
McCourty, Devin 4.48
Thomas, Kevin 4.48

Yah he sucks he's slower than every corner.. you guys need to get an idea of what it takes to play CB in the NFL.

So does Kareem Jackson.

beerlover
11-10-2010, 02:10 PM
FYI.. top 40 yard times for receivers during the combine:

Ghee, Brandon 4.45
Cook, Chris 4.46
Owusu-Ansah, Akwasi 4.47
Pender, David 4.47
Jackson, Kareem 4.48
McCourty, Devin 4.48
Thomas, Kevin 4.48

Yah he sucks he's slower than every corner.. you guys need to get an idea of what it takes to play CB in the NFL.

:mariopalm:

Dunta Robinson Combine forty 4.34. franchise him one more year to develop Kareem, plus he would have coached him up faster & more intelligently.

HTown2ATX
11-10-2010, 03:06 PM
Speaking of Kareem Jackson...

http://kilt.cbslocal.com/2010/11/08/...ay-on-defense/


LMAO

badboy
11-10-2010, 03:17 PM
The problem with that suggestion is that it seems that everyone on the D, especially on the secondary, looks like they need someone assigned to them for support on every play.I think Quin has done reasonably well for 2nd year. Personally I would switch him and KJ for remainder of season. Quin did well last year as a rookie. I would also replace McCain with Moldin and say your job depends on the next 8 games.

badboy
11-10-2010, 03:30 PM
FYI.. top 40 yard times for receivers during the combine:

Ghee, Brandon 4.45
Cook, Chris 4.46
Owusu-Ansah, Akwasi 4.47
Pender, David 4.47
Jackson, Kareem 4.48
McCourty, Devin 4.48
Thomas, Kevin 4.48

Yah he sucks he's slower than every corner.. you guys need to get an idea of what it takes to play CB in the NFL.

:mariopalm:Actually the speed you quote is for a 40 yard dash straight ahead. This is not the type of speed we are talking about. KJ is a "bump & run CB" and he often misses when he attempts to bump the WR to delay him & KJ is usually the one that is then off balance. Two things then happen. One he takes a couple seconds to mentally get back into the game but then his 4.48 allows him to rapidly close. He is getting better at this and our only hope is Kubes is right about the kid's internal fortitude and Kareem will continue to improve. The second is hip swivle and KJ is deficient here and there is little to do about that. He starts his body one direction and the WR makes a move to go in another. A CB like WIlson, McCourty or Ansah have the ability to swivle. They are more "cover type" and possibly will develop into shut down CBs. KJ will never be that, unfortunately.

silvrhand
11-10-2010, 04:35 PM
I think Quin has done reasonably well for 2nd year. Personally I would switch him and KJ for remainder of season. Quin did well last year as a rookie. I would also replace McCain with Moldin and say your job depends on the next 8 games.

You really think Quin has done well this season? Ugh they are equally as bad but IMHO Quin is getting worse while KJ seems to be getting better, well that is before the practice squad guy ugh..

CloakNNNdagger
11-10-2010, 04:41 PM
Actually the speed you quote is for a 40 yard dash straight ahead. This is not the type of speed we are talking about. KJ is a "bump & run CB" and he often misses when he attempts to bump the WR to delay him & KJ is usually the one that is then off balance. Two things then happen. One he takes a couple seconds to mentally get back into the game but then his 4.48 allows him to rapidly close. He is getting better at this and our only hope is Kubes is right about the kid's internal fortitude and Kareem will continue to improve. The second is hip swivle and KJ is deficient here and there is little to do about that. He starts his body one direction and the WR makes a move to go in another. A CB like WIlson, McCourty or Ansah have the ability to swivle. They are more "cover type" and possibly will develop into shut down CBs. KJ will never be that, unfortunately.

Let's review Jackson's Draft Profile:

Analysis

Read & React: Good route recognition. Reads the body lean of his opponent and has the athleticism to react accordingly. He anticipates the path of the ball and extends to reach around a receiver to break up passes. Reads run quickly and attacks the run on the perimeter.

Man Coverage: Good bump-and-run corner. Provides a good, physical pop at the line of scrimmage and keeps his hand on the receiver downfield to control (Not allowed to do that now). Good use of body to push the receiver outside, using the sideline to help cut off the space in which the quarterback can throw the ball. Allows too much separation on deep routes and has stiffness in his hips when suddenly changing direction. Face guards at this level, but won't be allowed to do so in the NFL.

Zone Coverage: Good awareness for zone coverage. A bit high in his backpedal and has some stiffness in his hips, but trusts his eyes and locates the football quickly. Savvy, physical player. Likes to use his hands to re-route the receiver. Has quick feet and a good burst out of his breaks to close.

Closing/Recovery: Lacks an elite second gear to recover if beaten initially, but has an impressive burst downhill to close on the ball. Plants his foot and drives, showing good body control to adjust around the receiver and get his hands on the ball. Times his leaps well and has an explosive vertical. Good hand-eye coordination and ball skills to extend and pluck outside of his frame.

Run Support: Aggressive to the line of scrimmage to help against the run, protecting the edge and forcing the back to cut back inside. Fights through the receiver's block and has the agility to elude bigger blockers in tight quarters. Good vision and effort to cut through the trash in pursuit. Takes good angles in pursuit.

Tackling: Strong wrap-up tackler. Brings his hips through and can be a big hitter on the boundary. Willing to face up bigger ballcarriers. Will lead with his shoulder when he sees the receiver in a vulnerable position. Good strength for the drag-down tackle when trailing the receiver across the middle.

Intangibles: Highly competitive player that puts in time in the film room. Asked for his grade from the NFL Advisory Committee, but didn't read it upon receiving it. Jackson gave the unopened envelope to Nick Saban to hold until after the BCS National Championship game so that the contents wouldn't be a distraction.

LINK (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1273346)

badboy
11-10-2010, 04:44 PM
You really think Quin has done well this season? Ugh they are equally as bad but IMHO Quin is getting worse while KJ seems to be getting better, well that is before the practice squad guy ugh..Yes I do. Remember he was flopped to the other side this season when KJ was drafted. Like I believe TK stated, Quin is best CB this season.

False Start
11-10-2010, 04:46 PM
Speaking of Kareem Jackson...

http://kilt.cbslocal.com/2010/11/08/...ay-on-defense/


LMAO

Was this where Kubiak compared him to John Elway? :mariopalm:

Jackie Chiles
11-10-2010, 04:48 PM
You really think Quin has done well this season? Ugh they are equally as bad but IMHO Quin is getting worse while KJ seems to be getting better, well that is before the practice squad guy ugh..

Quin is doing fine, every time I see a receiver catch a ball thrown to his side Quin is right there stride for stride. He looks like a shut down CB compared to KJ, I have never seen a CB get picked apart like this.

badboy
11-10-2010, 04:56 PM
Let's review Jackson's Draft Profile:

Analysis

Read & React: Good route recognition. Reads the body lean of his opponent and has the athleticism to react accordingly. He anticipates the path of the ball and extends to reach around a receiver to break up passes. Reads run quickly and attacks the run on the perimeter.

Man Coverage: Good bump-and-run corner. Provides a good, physical pop at the line of scrimmage and keeps his hand on the receiver downfield to control (Not allowed to do that now). Good use of body to push the receiver outside, using the sideline to help cut off the space in which the quarterback can throw the ball. Allows too much separation on deep routes and has stiffness in his hips when suddenly changing direction. Face guards at this level, but won't be allowed to do so in the NFL.

Zone Coverage: Good awareness for zone coverage. A bit high in his backpedal and has some stiffness in his hips, but trusts his eyes and locates the football quickly. Savvy, physical player. Likes to use his hands to re-route the receiver. Has quick feet and a good burst out of his breaks to close.

Closing/Recovery: Lacks an elite second gear to recover if beaten initially, but has an impressive burst downhill to close on the ball. Plants his foot and drives, showing good body control to adjust around the receiver and get his hands on the ball. Times his leaps well and has an explosive vertical. Good hand-eye coordination and ball skills to extend and pluck outside of his frame.

Run Support: Aggressive to the line of scrimmage to help against the run, protecting the edge and forcing the back to cut back inside. Fights through the receiver's block and has the agility to elude bigger blockers in tight quarters. Good vision and effort to cut through the trash in pursuit. Takes good angles in pursuit.

Tackling: Strong wrap-up tackler. Brings his hips through and can be a big hitter on the boundary. Willing to face up bigger ballcarriers. Will lead with his shoulder when he sees the receiver in a vulnerable position. Good strength for the drag-down tackle when trailing the receiver across the middle.

Intangibles: Highly competitive player that puts in time in the film room. Asked for his grade from the NFL Advisory Committee, but didn't read it upon receiving it. Jackson gave the unopened envelope to Nick Saban to hold until after the BCS National Championship game so that the contents wouldn't be a distraction.Don't see your link but this is exactly what I've been saying since we picked him. When a "bump" Corner is missing his bump it is like a quick draw gunfighter who gets off the first bullet only to watch it miss the target. Then he dies. I think KJ would be an excellent SS with his size and speed. His negatives as a CB would be less noticeable at safety. Let's move Quin to FS, KJ to SS and finish this season with Moldin and McMannis. Nolan & Pollard excellent off bench. In draft we get Fairley to strengthen Dline and then CB Curtis Brown, Jimmy Smith or Rashad Carmichael in 2nd.

steelbtexan
11-10-2010, 05:07 PM
I'll wait till the end of the season to see how Kareem has developed. I think too many people are putting too much in to this veteran teaching the young guy stuff.

You're saying Champ Bailey wouldn't upgrade this team at CB or be able to help Jackson? LOL

First, we don't know that any vet we bring in would even be willing to teach anything. You know when you talk to the vet. before signing him.

Second, who taught Brandon Flowers & Brandon Carr all the "tricks of the trade?

Gibbs, but maybe just maybe Jackson isn't as good as Flowers or Carr. Jackson certianly isn't as good as Carr or Flowers were in their rookie yrs.



Nothing against Kirwan, but when has any NFL team paid Kirwan for his ability to judge talent? Kirwan was the GM of the Jets during the Carroll yrs and was a scout for many yrs

Smith has gone up the ranks from scout to GM.

True, but his draft record is spotty at best. IMHO Smith is young and could've got the job before he was ready for it? no?

How often has Quin been beat?

Quin is an average CB. Who I believe has the ability to be an above average FS.

I do agree that I like the idea of Quin moving to FS better than the idea of

trotting Wilson out there again. Even better than sending Nolan back there.

I'd like to see What McManis or Molden can do at the corner spots as well.

Agreed

Put the best 5 DBs on the field...... can't go wrong with that. I don't see Wilson in that group anymore.

Agreed, If the Texans were lucky enough to get to draft Aaron Williams he has more agility than Jackson ever will. That is god given and cant be learned. IMHO

CloakNNNdagger
11-10-2010, 06:28 PM
Don't see your link but this is exactly what I've been saying since we picked him. When a "bump" Corner is missing his bump it is like a quick draw gunfighter who gets off the first bullet only to watch it miss the target. Then he dies. I think KJ would be an excellent SS with his size and speed. His negatives as a CB would be less noticeable at safety. Let's move Quin to FS, KJ to SS and finish this season with Moldin and McMannis. Nolan & Pollard excellent off bench. In draft we get Fairley to strengthen Dline and then CB Curtis Brown, Jimmy Smith or Rashad Carmichael in 2nd.

Sorry, I added the link.

One of the points I was trying to make was the need for a CB to transition fto the NFL with its 5-yard "chuck rule" from college where no such rule exists.

Joe Hadden in an interview in April (http://cle.scout.com/2/966931.html):

Both Haden and Ward said they learned their first day about the distinct differences between the NFL and the college game.

“This is different because there are better athletes,” Ward said. “This is the highest level.”

Haden said his learning experience was on the field.

“One of the first things was in 7-on-7,” Haden said. “I like to keep my hands on the receiver and the ref told to get my hands off the receiver. I’ll have to get used to that five-yard rule.”

Some CBs will transition sooner, some later, some not at all. A problem in that transition may be in the form of laying the hands on for too long......or playing too tentatively near the line trying to avoid the penalty. If a CB's main success in college was due to his ability to keep his hands on the receivers, then he may just have one heck of a time garnering success in the NFL.

This 1994 article demonstrates quite bluntly, how much the "chuck rule" can affect the game.:

A rule worth chucking: the NFL owners touched a nerve when they decided the no-chuck rule would be strictly enforced (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n14_v218/ai_15773215/)

TimeKiller
11-10-2010, 08:45 PM
Realism, who else are you going to put in there then?

The other corners on the team. Why don't they play?

KJ and Quin would be a nice duo at safety. They both show the ability to tackle and play physical defense and they do flash coverage skills occasionally but what gets them burned is the inability to stay with their man. Wilson might actually make a difference if he was as fast as either of these guys. Let the other guys that you drafted get a chance because what's going on here is not a success. While we're on quantam leaps here, I say hello to our new WLB: Bernard Pollard. 6'1'' 224 pounds of hell is just fine on the weakside and it's not like you would expect a LBer to cover better than a safety anyway. Play to his strengths, run stopping and blitzing, I wrote it small so nobody would get scared. Zac Diles, MLB. Brian Cushing SLB. Nickel package keeps Pollard and Diles at backer, move Cushing down to the line and let him get after a QB, like they would for Barwin.

Cut Okoye.

I know this probably sounds like a Madden rant but...I'd rather see them try different things and fail then try the same crap over and over.....and fail.

76Texan
11-10-2010, 11:48 PM
Let's review Jackson's Draft Profile:

Analysis

Read & React: Good route recognition. Reads the body lean of his opponent and has the athleticism to react accordingly. He anticipates the path of the ball and extends to reach around a receiver to break up passes. Reads run quickly and attacks the run on the perimeter.

Man Coverage: Good bump-and-run corner. Provides a good, physical pop at the line of scrimmage and keeps his hand on the receiver downfield to control. (Not allowed to do that now). Good use of body to push the receiver outside, using the sideline to help cut off the space in which the quarterback can throw the ball. Allows too much separation on deep routes and has stiffness in his hips when suddenly changing direction.[B] Face guards at this level, but won't be allowed to do so in the NFL.

Zone Coverage: Good awareness for zone coverage. A bit high in his backpedal and has some stiffness in his hips, but trusts his eyes and locates the football quickly. Savvy, physical player. Likes to use his hands to re-route the receiver. Has quick feet and a good burst out of his breaks to close.

Closing/Recovery: Lacks an elite second gear to recover if beaten initially, but has an impressive burst downhill to close on the ball. Plants his foot and drives, showing good body control to adjust around the receiver and get his hands on the ball. Times his leaps well and has an explosive vertical. Good hand-eye coordination and ball skills to extend and pluck outside of his frame.

Run Support: Aggressive to the line of scrimmage to help against the run, protecting the edge and forcing the back to cut back inside. Fights through the receiver's block and has the agility to elude bigger blockers in tight quarters. Good vision and effort to cut through the trash in pursuit. Takes good angles in pursuit.

Tackling: Strong wrap-up tackler. Brings his hips through and can be a big hitter on the boundary. Willing to face up bigger ballcarriers. Will lead with his shoulder when he sees the receiver in a vulnerable position. Good strength for the drag-down tackle when trailing the receiver across the middle.

Intangibles: Highly competitive player that puts in time in the film room. Asked for his grade from the NFL Advisory Committee, but didn't read it upon receiving it. Jackson gave the unopened envelope to Nick Saban to hold until after the BCS National Championship game so that the contents wouldn't be a distraction.

LINK (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1273346)

Thanks for the post, CNND.

I will try to share my view on these, a little at a time, as schedule permits.

About faceguarding, I'm not quite sure I understand the rules in the NFL.
But I found this:
http://www.ehow.com/facts_4813761_nfl-face-guarding-rules.html


The NFL has had its share of controversial calls over the years. Some of them are on misinterpretations of the rules by officials. Others are just rules that are not explained correctly to the public by television broadcasters. Defenders are permitted to interfere with a player's vision, and as long as no other rules are broken it is not a penalty in the National Football League.
.Definition
Face guarding in the NFL is the act of trying to block the vision of a receiver from being able to see the football when attempting to catch a pass.
Legality
There are rules in the NFL against pass interference, but there are no such rules against face guarding. A defender can block a receiver's view of the ball with any part of his body.
When Face Guarding Becomes Pass Interference
If the defender makes physical contact with a receiver while trying to block his view of the football before the ball arrives, that is considered pass interference. The penalty is for pass interference, not for face guarding.
Controversy
One of the more controversial calls was made in the 2007 AFC Championship Game, when analyst Phil Simms indicated a Patriots defender, Ellis Hobbs, was penalized for face guarding. The NFL later indicated it should not have been a penalty.
Misconceptions
Considering face guarding is not a penalty, a defender does not have to be "looking for the ball" when breaking up a pass for the receiver. Instead, he just needs to make sure he makes no physical contact at all with the receiver before the ball arrives.
.....

As I reviewed KJ's college tapes, I did not see how he defends any differently from NFL players.
Perhaps there were a few instances where the grader saw something that KJ got away with?
Personally, I'm definitely sure that I didn't see any PI call that was missed (or at least 90 something percent sure.)

Brisco_County
11-11-2010, 12:31 AM
My honest conclusion on Jackson thus far: In deep coverage, he's so raw that he shouldn't be out there. In other aspects, he's somewhat solid. I do see him becoming a non-bust, and maybe a valuable player after experience. His vertical is impressive, as demonstrated in his two interceptions. His tackling is above average for this defense, but his speed is definitely lacking a top gear.

76Texan
11-11-2010, 01:14 AM
Let's review Jackson's Draft Profile:

Analysis

Read & React: Good route recognition. Reads the body lean of his opponent and has the athleticism to react accordingly. He anticipates the path of the ball and extends to reach around a receiver to break up passes. Reads run quickly and attacks the run on the perimeter.

Man Coverage: Good bump-and-run corner. Provides a good, physical pop at the line of scrimmage and keeps his hand on the receiver downfield to control (Not allowed to do that now). Good use of body to push the receiver outside, using the sideline to help cut off the space in which the quarterback can throw the ball. Allows too much separation on deep routes and has stiffness in his hips when suddenly changing direction. Face guards at this level, but won't be allowed to do so in the NFL.

Now I agree with the Read & React part, let's move on to Man Coverage.


Good bump-and-run corner.
This, I also agree with.
However, it's a total contradiction to what badboy believes.
Certainly, there were a few instances so far in his NFL venture in which KJ missed his man near the LOS.
Perhaps badboy can detail all the occasions (as he deems it to be too many) so as to solidify his conclusion that KJ is simply bad in bump-and-run coverage.

Keeping his hand on receiver downfield (not allowed in the NFL)
Again, I did not see much extravagant in this part of his game either in college or with the Texans.
KJ is a guy who I think play too close to the book (what I mean when I say he was all business). He plays "too clean" of a game.
If anything, KJ needs to learn all the tricks of the trade.
Push the envelope to see how much you can get away with.
(A few posters, like Nitrohonda, like Brandon Flowers, for example.
Sure, the guy is pretty good.
But also for me, yah, he got away with a few, from what I can see.)

Good use of body to push the receiver outside, using the sideline to help cut off the space in which the quarterback can throw the ball
No quarrel from me there.


Allows too much separation on deep routes .
Yes and no. Mostly a big NO.
Remember, we're talking about man coverage here, in his last year in college.
If you (CNND) can bring back the thread in which I broke down his game tape, you will see that he doesn't get beat in man coverage on a deep route.
Yes, because, I think perhaps the grader may incorporate games from the year before that, or maybe he did not consider certain plays where the defense was set up to have help over the top and that KJ was looking for the INT underneath.
Or that one particular play where I mentioned I believed there was offensive interference.
But "too much separation on the deep routes" in man coverage is a definitely no since he did not allow any completion of that sort (again, we're talking about "college".)

has stiffness in his hips
I think this is a misconception of sort.
Once, I had described him as winning "Dancing with the Star" because he's so good at planting one foot this way (at full speed or near to full speed; ie. hard) and yet can open and turn his hip to go the other way as smoothly as I hardly ever see.
Many CBs try to do that and gone.
They cannot recover, let alone slipping, trying to recover.
The funny thing is that's why you don't see many other CBs slipping in this way (miss-tackle or getting themselves totally out of the play are the result, but hey, they aren't slip-sliding.)
I must surmise, however, that I will need to look a lot closer at many different CBs that we've seen to be sure of this part.

76Texan
11-11-2010, 01:26 AM
My honest conclusion on Jackson thus far: In deep coverage, he's so raw that he shouldn't be out there. In other aspects, he's somewhat solid. I do see him becoming a non-bust, and maybe a valuable player after experience. His vertical is impressive, as demonstrated in his two interceptions. His tackling is above average for this defense, but his speed is definitely lacking a top gear.

I promise I will get to this before the off-season to settle this before it becomes a Chris Myers sort of thing!

Sometimes the easiest thing that one can see on the field is not what it really is.
I cannot stress this enough!

76Texan
11-11-2010, 02:04 AM
I'm going to turn my attention now to the winning TD for the Chargers to clarify why I don't think I like the D call.

After motion, Chargers were in a shotgun spread (empty backfield, 5 receivers - including TE and RB - on the LOS).
We rushed 5 (4 linemen plus Cushing) and therefore ended up with man coverage (5 on 5) plus a single deep safety (Nolan) who planted himself pretty much square in the middle of the field.

The LOS is our 28-yd line (this is important, to me at least).

The first thing that I don't like is that we sent both DEs on the edge.
What it means is that if neither of them can get around the Offensive tackles soon enough (the pass was gone between 2 and 2-1/2 sec and they didn't) and the other 3 rushers can't get anything going in the middle (they didn't), it's free-wheeling for the QB.
A clean pocket in one-and-one situations for all 5 rushers in that amount of time, is a deadly sin.
And that is only the beginning.

76Texan
11-11-2010, 02:55 AM
Now, on our left side, we had a three-way going with Quin, Bentley, and Pollard (from far left to the inside) covering 3 offensive players.

I'm fine with the coverage on this side.
We had Pollard pressing the most inside threat, the TE, with inside technique, preventing any sort of slant-in from any of those 3 offensive players.
We had Quin showing press, then dropping back off the most-outside receiver to play the role of a safety, backing up both Pollard and Bentley.
(Note: The QB, Rivers, never even looked this way, why???)

Where Nolan set up his camp was a major part of the why, IMO.

But first off, the Chargers sent the RB into motion from the backfield to the left side line.
Diles followed him, showing man coverage all the way.

The next of why Rivers never looked to his right, from my perspective, was due to our centerfielder Nolan planting himself straight in the middle.
In simple term, our left side was covered with 3 and a half defenders while our right side was covered with only 2 and a half defenders.

As it was, the LOS at the 28, when Rivers went into his throwing motion, his target receiver was on the 23-yd line (thereabout) and pretty much in his stride.
On the other hand, our help (Nolan) was dead-straight in the middle of the field, more or less 26 yds from the side line, turning sideway into a backward diagonal path (which made his route toward the target even further.)
Simple math can tell you that a centerfielder is rendered useless in this situation (to either side).

Now if we insist on Nolan playing square in the middle (which does not make sense in the first place) then we should have KJ playing to the outside to turn the receiver in (we didn't.)

Or we could shade Nolan back toward the hashmark.
He was nearby to begin with, but shifted back to middle pre-snap and stayed there until the ball break - which Rivers can see from night and day.
This (or having Nolan breaking early) are the two things that make sense to me; neither happened!

I cannot dream of pinpointing out what went wrong, but those were my observations.
IMHO, it was a recipe for disaster (or at least, mishap.)

This is an example of why I think our DC don't put the players in good position to succeed at times.
Or maybe Nolan should have shaded back quickly toward his original position near the hashmark right after the ball was snapped; in this case, the coaches wanted him to disguise his whereabout, but Nolan was a bit too nonchalant going about his task?

76Texan
11-11-2010, 03:50 AM
Also, I would like to mention that as a tandem defense, Diles and KJ could be in a Tango (yes, they actually call it a Tango).

Diles, who was on the decoy RB lining up near the side-line, could drop back to hinder any outside route; but no, Diles went up past the LOS to guard the decoy RB. (This adds to raising the question about the football god whom I think is omnipresent, not just in the underworld.)
Yah, you think the QB will throw a pass out there in man coverage?
(Shss, Diles may be unreliable dropping back, but to play downhill, nahhh, got to be last resort for the QB, I would think!)

Tell me how often do you see a Texan defender (or any defender from any team) who would go past the LOS near the side-line just to take away an offensive player (different from jumping on).
The reason is that you don't need to. That's overkill unless the offensive player is an AJ or near-to-the-sort.

beerlover
11-11-2010, 01:05 PM
many props to 76Texan for all his breakdowns.

Two things:

problem is overall talent in secondary, primary the safeties who are often out of position because they can't recognize & lack the speed/skill set to recover.

second the gameplanning & use of said players to prevent big plays from happening or in general inability to stop oppossing defenses cause of poor adjustments made defesively during games.

they liked Kareem because he came in well coached, played smart, required size & skill set to start in the NFL as a rookie. I think not only is this staff married to him now they most reach back in the same cookie jar & pull a teammate from Alabama who knows his game & worked together in coverages. I'm thinking specificly about Mark Barron @ Alabama in the 2nd rd. He is 6-2 210 can flex & play SS or FS. Another smart Sabin player possessing leadership skills, was third-team Associated Press All-American and a first-team All-SEC pick as sophmore. Texans Rick Smith & Co. should be all over this kid if he comes out this year.