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blockhead83
03-21-2005, 11:56 AM
I remember having this convo about this time last year, it stirred the pot a little bit. Gaffney had some good moments last year, and some downright bad moments, but overall I'd say he improved. He made some highlight catches, and showed some veteran savvy at times. He also looked horrible getting run down by Jerry Azumah when all he had was grass in front of him, and there was the time when he started celebrating early running into the end zone and inexplicably fumbled the ball into the end zone, turning the ball over. I still think he could make a serviceable #2, but my hopes for him becoming a good starting #2 are starting to fade. To add to that, I'd almost rather see Armstrong in the slot than Gaffney. I'd guess he's cheaper, and he seems to have better hands than Gaffney.

Don't get me wrong, I like Gaffney, I just think the Texans can (and will) find better personnel at receiver either in the draft or next off-season. Thoughts?

Gilly
03-21-2005, 12:21 PM
If I had to choose between to two of them I would give armstrong a chance to earn the #2 spot. Gaf Im afraid is not going to cut it. If we can draft another big WR. i think Armstrong becomes a dangerous #3.

Vinny
03-21-2005, 12:25 PM
The 3-WR set is our dominant set right now and Gaffney is very good in the slot. When Carr looked for him he really had some nice moments and his role will continue to expand. Gaffney has had 40, 34, & 41 catches in an offense where he is not looked at much due to Carr mainly going from first read to last read for the most part in his first 3 years here. It took about 3 years before Reggie Wayne started to really shine across from Marvin Harrison. I think Gaffney is still on the rise in regard to his NFL plateau.

keyfro
03-21-2005, 12:31 PM
yeah i would like to see us draft a reciever on the first day...someone with a lot of college experience like reggie brown, fred gibson, or terrence murphy...i think all three of those guys could make really nice additions to our recieving corp...my wildcard in the draft has to go to matt jones...i believe he will turn out just like brew bennett...should be very interesting to see what happens...as for gaffney and armstrong...just not sure which one is really better...i want to say gaffney since he's been with the team since the beginning but he also hasn't turned into the solid reciever we were all hoping for

michaelm
03-21-2005, 12:32 PM
I agree that he still hasn't fully reached his potential, but the comparison may not be a good one. Wayne is a #2 on one of the most explosive offenses in NFL history, Gaff is trying to be a #3 on a team with a questinable line and no clear cut #2...
the Wayne comparison is an indication of your belief in the 3rd yr theory...
As a fantasy football freak, I too subscribe to that theory, or at least see some merit in it...

Dionysus22
03-21-2005, 12:39 PM
I remember having this convo about this time last year, it stirred the pot a little bit. Gaffney had some good moments last year, and some downright bad moments, but overall I'd say he improved. He made some highlight catches, and showed some veteran savvy at times. He also looked horrible getting run down by Jerry Azumah when all he had was grass in front of him, and there was the time when he started celebrating early running into the end zone and inexplicably fumbled the ball into the end zone, turning the ball over. I still think he could make a serviceable #2, but my hopes for him becoming a good starting #2 are starting to fade. To add to that, I'd almost rather see Armstrong in the slot than Gaffney. I'd guess he's cheaper, and he seems to have better hands than Gaffney.

Don't get me wrong, I like Gaffney, I just think the Texans can (and will) find better personnel at receiver either in the draft or next off-season. Thoughts?
I see what you're sayin. I like the guy too but I thought he'd produce a little more by now. Also, I really see no need to go into the draft looking for a wideout, we have plenty here that we don't even play. I still want to see Starling, Armstrong and Thomas to get a solid chance and actually get some balls thrown their way during a game, not just in practice. But don't me wrong if we have the opp. to grab a top-tier WR, then by all means...snatch him!

Dionysus22
03-21-2005, 12:43 PM
The 3-WR set is our dominant set right now and Gaffney is very good in the slot. When Carr looked for him he really had some nice moments and his role will continue to expand. Gaffney has had 40, 34, & 41 catches in an offense where he is not looked at much due to Carr mainly going from first read to last read for the most part in his first 3 years here. It took about 3 years before Reggie Wayne started to really shine across from Marvin Harrison. I think Gaffney is still on the rise in regard to his NFL plateau.
Good point. DC did have a little problem in his read progression, but I'm sure they'll have that fixed before training camp. I still believe Gaff hasn't hit his ceiling yet. Maybe this year he'll get his chance once we get this whole "zone blocking" thing figured out. :hmmm:

michaelm
03-21-2005, 12:49 PM
as pointed out by persons who know more about the topic than myself, the zone blocking aspect of the OL is relevant only to the running game...
we really need to figure out the whole 'interior of the line needs upgrading' thing... well @ OC and RG anyway...

D-ReK
03-21-2005, 12:52 PM
Maybe this year he'll get his chance once we get this whole "zone blocking" thing figured out. :hmmm:

Zone blocking affects the run blocking, not pass protection...

As for Gaffney, I think either he or Armstrong will have a big year, whichever takes over the #2 spot...If AJ keeps getting double teamed, the ball has to go somewhere...Maybe DD will have 100 receptions this year :hmmm:...

Dionysus22
03-21-2005, 01:00 PM
as pointed out by persons who know more about the topic than myself, the zone blocking aspect of the OL is relevant only to the running game...

Well as a former Trench Warrior myself, pass blocking is a lot like zone blocking. In pass blocking, you take your "hinge" step, with your head on a swivel, pick up anybody that crosses your face or comes in your zone. And in run blocking, instead of a "hinge" step you take a "zone" step which is a large lateral step to either your right or left side depending on which way the play is called. but same fundamentals apply. Anyone crosses your face or invades your zone...knock their block off.

Lucky
03-21-2005, 01:36 PM
I see what you're sayin. I like the guy too but I thought he'd produce a little more by now...
Gaffney's production (or lack thereof) is not all about Gaffney. If he's to produce more, he has to see the ball more. Gaffney saw 68 passes in his direction in '04, 57 in '03. True #2 WRs see more passes than that.

Bruce - STL - 148 targets
Bennett - TEN - 144
Driver - GB - 137
Wayne - IND - 115
Houshmandzadeh - CIN - 109
Gardner - WAS - 106
Stallworth - NO - 106
Burleson - MIN - 102
Lelie - DEN - 101

Based on Jabar's production from 67 targets in '04, if he had seen 100 balls in his direction, Gaffney would have had 60 receptions for 924 yards. Not shabby. Can Jabar see 100 balls his way as the #2 WR? If the Texans can improve their pass protection and allow Gaffney to work downfield and uncover, yes. Gaffney could see even more passes than that if the coaching staff has confidence in the pass blocking and throws more on 1st & 2nd downs.

I don't see how a rookie WR will just step onto the field and automatically improve the Texans passing game. Yes, there have been outstanding rookies seasons recently from guys like AJ, Boldin, & Michael Clayton. But, most WRs need one, two, & sometimes even three years before becoming impact players. I'm more confident that Gaffney can become a solid #2 if the Texans can fix the problems in pass protection.

blockhead83
03-21-2005, 03:41 PM
I agree with alot of what has been said on the subject, and Vinny and Lucky both gave a different perspective with valid points. As far as Gaffney being targetted more, that can be greatly contributed to Carr not having enough time in the pocket, and/or not making his progressions well enough. On the other hand, it can also partly be attributed to Gaffney not being able to get separation. Saying that if he was targetted X number of times more would allow him to produce X more yards and receptions is faulty logic. I understand it's just an example for your point, but keep in mind I'm sure Carr looked to him plenty of times, but did not pull the trigger because he felt the ball would be batted down or picked. If we forced the ball to him X more times a season, who knows how many interceptions Carr would accumulate.

Statistics aside, I just haven't seen much out of Gaffney that makes me think he's going to improve much past his current ability. His biggest asset that I've noticed is his ability to find holes in zone coverages, but I don't think he has the speed to be a consistent playmaker. He's a decent receiver now, I'm just wondering if it wouldn't be beneficial to pick up a player in the draft, this year or next, who could develop into a more dangerous option for Carr.

TheOgre
03-21-2005, 03:44 PM
I like Gaffney in the slot. That seems to be his role.

swtbound07
03-21-2005, 03:51 PM
yes, normally it takes a wide reciever 3 years or so to develop, but you have to remember, gaffney is a gator, which automatically puts him on the 6 year plan...heh heh heh

Lucky
03-21-2005, 04:36 PM
...On the other hand, it can also partly be attributed to Gaffney not being able to get separation. Saying that if he was targetted X number of times more would allow him to produce X more yards and receptions is faulty logic. I understand it's just an example for your point, but keep in mind I'm sure Carr looked to him plenty of times, but did not pull the trigger because he felt the ball would be batted down or picked...
I agree with a lot of that. But I'm sure Carr looked at AJ more times than he threw to him, as well. Doesn't mean that AJ can't get open. My point is that if Carr is allowed more time (and Gaffney is allowed more time to uncover), there will be more opportunities in the passing game. More time to throw + More passes called in non-obvious passing situations = More passes to open WRs.

I'm not saying that Gaffney is the perfect player. He didn't make every play that was out there in '04, he made a few goofs in the red zone. But, he has improved over the course of three years. And take a look at some of the top #2 WRs in the league. Other than Stallworth & Lelie, there's not a lot of speed in that group. My feeling is that Gaffney's ceiling is akin to Keenan McCardell, a very good clutch possession receiver who really came on in his 4th year in the league.

blockhead83
03-21-2005, 07:24 PM
I'd love for Gaffney to show up more and become a player like McCardell this season. I think he's been given three seasons to become a player for us, and, whether it's his fault or not, if he doesn't see a significant amount of production next season he might soon find himself on the way out.

I think success is the cure for everything though. He doesn't need 80 catches and a thousand yards to prove that he can be a player for us, if he can just make some key contributions on the way to a few more wins this year, things could pan out after all. And as far as most #2's not having a great deal of speed, I hadn't really thought that out. It's interesting the two guys you mentioned as having alot of speed are both two guys who are getting knocked for underperforming. Stallworth is on thin ice in New Orleans last I heard. Maybe speed isn't so important for #2's.

Dunta_23
03-21-2005, 07:31 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Gaffeny was like 21/21 for converting 3rd downs into 1st downs this past season....Im not saying that stat alone makes u a good # 2, but I mean the guy knows how to make it to the sticks and get open, and CATCH the ball well....Im not exactly sure about the numbers as I said but im pretty sure I read that a while back. Confirmation??

Fiddy
03-21-2005, 07:53 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Gaffeny was like 21/21 for converting 3rd downs into 1st downs this past season....Im not saying that stat alone makes u a good # 2, but I mean the guy knows how to make it to the sticks and get open, and CATCH the ball well....Im not exactly sure about the numbers as I said but im pretty sure I read that a while back. Confirmation??That stat is exactly right

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306271/splits/2004

spence425
03-21-2005, 09:57 PM
i think gaffney's got the goods. he showed signs of it last year....he just needs to stop thinking he's the man, and accept his role as a number 2.

outofhnd
03-21-2005, 10:38 PM
I think Gaffney has earned the #2 spot at this point how he plays in that role will dictate if he keeps it or Armstrong takes it. Id rather have Armstrong in the slot this year though so I can get more of a look at him in more of a regular role. I like the 1 - 2 punch of AJ and Gaffney because Gaffney to me is a stick moving Receiver. I think Aj needs that in a #2 receiver more than another track mate. I think that would do more to free up AJ than another speed receiver having to learn the palmer offense and try and run the right routes at the right times

infantrycak
03-21-2005, 11:45 PM
He also looked horrible getting run down by Jerry Azumah when all he had was grass in front of him,

Sorry, just have to disagree with this example. Are you really going to call a 69 yard reception (his longest of his career) a moment when he looked horrible? So there happened to be a CB on the field (the one he beat to get open by the way) who was straight line faster--big whoop. Dunta is faster than 75% of the starting #1 WR's--doesn't mean if he catches one of them from behind that it was horrible by them. Don't you think Mike Williams will get caught from behind at times--and he may go in the top 10 this year?

blockhead83
03-22-2005, 12:55 AM
Just my opinion on Gaff getting run down. I'm not disputing that it was a long reception, just my memory of this catch reflects poorly on Gaffney. I remember him having a good few steps on Azumah, turning and seeing how quickly Azumah was closing, and then trailing off toward the sideline before being thrown to the ground. I didn't see him have the killer instinct to make a bee line and gun it for the end zone, and it just honestly looked like he was more concerned with not getting tackled hard than he was with putting the ball in the end zone. I remember after the game he commented on how he'd hear about it from the guys in the locker room for a while.

texan_fan
03-22-2005, 01:12 AM
I'd take *Automatic* over *BUTTERFINGERS* any day of the week. I don't know WHY, but Gaffney can EITHER catch the ball OR be in the end zone. For some reason, he has a hard time putting the 2 together, which is unacceptable...

Rovator
03-22-2005, 01:17 AM
He's still relatively young too, so it's plausible to say he can still has much room to improve. He came out after his Sophomore year, he's the same age as Andre

outofhnd
03-22-2005, 03:02 AM
He didnt have that many drops in the endzone this year. Its not like everytime the ball was thrown his way he dropped it. Who knows they may have a #2 receiver by comittee. All depends I think Gaffney is a Good receiver, he may not have been the goal line receiver but he sure put us in a lot of scoring positions.

Dionysus22
03-22-2005, 03:11 AM
Honestly, don't ya'll think all of this #2 wr talk is jumping the gun a little bit. I'd like to see what happens when we get DC some protection and he learns his read prgression. Give DC more than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball I'm sure we'll see everyone's production go up. I like Gaff. Think he's a solid #2, mind a few drops, he could be the answer we've been looking for and already had. In a 3 WR set from the slot, he's dangerous in the open field. But I don't think he has the physical ability to be an endzone treat. C'mon, we can't all be Andre.

texasguy346
03-22-2005, 09:54 AM
I don't necessarily think that you have to be a physical specimen or physical freak like AJ to be an endzone threat. Jerry Rice isn't exactly physical, but he has more TDs than any other WR. Just look at the catch Gaff made for a TD against the Titans in Nashville. He didn't have to out jump the CB, or push off him to make the catch. He simply ran underneath the CB, and used those sticky mits of his to make a great catch. The point being that Gaff can get open and make the catch in the endzone w/o having to be a freak of nature like AJ. It would be nice if Gaff could fly like AJ, or jump over defenders like AJ but he can still be effective by just being himself. The best combo would be a receiver with the body and speed of AJ, and the hands of Gaffney, but I feel pretty good having both of those guys out there catching balls for us, hopefully, for many years to come.

outofhnd
03-23-2005, 12:03 AM
Unless Armstrong just has a perfect camp this year expect Gaffney to line up as the #2 guy and Armstrong in the slot. Id like to see Armstrong more, He is tall and good leaping ability. But is he a consistent receiver? I dont think we waste a #1 on a WR. Some of the top receivers were not even first rounders.