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Joe Texan
09-12-2010, 10:24 PM
When Payaton Manning lines up to take a snap and then he changes the play, how can 4 to eight of his guys be moving at the same time and it not be Illegal motion?

brakos82
09-12-2010, 10:26 PM
When Payaton Manning lines up to take a snap and then he changes the play, how can 4 to eight of his guys be moving at the same time and it not be Illegal motion?

I think you can move as much as you want (except OL) as long as the players are set for at least 1 second before the snap.

Then again, I don't have a rule book.

The Pencil Neck
09-12-2010, 10:35 PM
I think you can move as much as you want (except OL) as long as the players are set for at least 1 second before the snap.

Then again, I don't have a rule book.

Back when I was a kid playing, I was taught that as soon as you put your hand down, you weren't allowed to move or it was a false start. I'd have to check, but I don't know if that rule has changed or if the Colts line is moving before putting their hands down and being "set".

infantrycak
09-12-2010, 10:52 PM
This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. Peyton often gets fully set, starts his cadence and then backs out and all the sudden people are moving everywhere. We've seen examples where Schaub gets under center and Kevin Walter twitches his heal alignment and it is a false start. Teams should be sending the worst examples into the league each week until the refs do something about it.

Texecutioner
09-12-2010, 10:56 PM
I totally noticed this today and was wondering what the hell was going on and why there wasn't some sort of false start penalty or illegal motion like JT mentioned. The lineman were getting set and doing all sorts of stuff while communicating to one another. How are they able to do this all of the time?

Joe Texan
09-12-2010, 11:32 PM
I do not think they have an explanation. it is illegal motion hands down and gets over looked cause it is the Colts

Texan4Ever
09-13-2010, 12:14 AM
I think you can move as much as you want (except OL) as long as the players are set for at least 1 second before the snap.

Then again, I don't have a rule book.



I think your're right about being set for at least a second. There was a penalty on the Colts when one of the players just kept moving without setting and he was penalized.

toronto
09-13-2010, 12:20 AM
I do not think they have an explanation. it is illegal motion hands down and gets over looked cause it is the Colts

This goes back a lot further than the Colts....

I still remember when the Cowboy offensive line would essentially rise in unision and all false start every play and it was never called, despite the fact that it threw the DL's timing off often.

You see the same shifting in many Pat games, Brees/Saints games as well as Steeler games when Big Ben is under center. Its maddening but they let it happen.

brakos82
09-13-2010, 12:25 AM
It's more of an old-school thing really... if you watch the Steel Curtain era Steelers, they'll get in a half-crouch stance until just before the ball's snapped, go down into the 3-point stance, and hike the ball. From what I've seen several teams did this back in the 70s and early 80s.

infantrycak
09-13-2010, 12:26 AM
I think you can move as much as you want (except OL) as long as the players are set for at least 1 second before the snap.

Then again, I don't have a rule book.

The thing I think folks are complaining about here is the opposite - getting set and then moving, not that they move before getting set. I don't care if they mill around aimlessly until there is 1 second, get set and then play. What I don't think is called correctly is when they run up to the line with 30 seconds on the clock, get fully set and all the sudden Manning backs out and the OL is all moving to turn around and listen to him, receivers are running in to talk to him, etc. And they know they aren't supposed to be moving. Notice that the OLmen never lift their hand. It's like this bizarre Colts rule where as long as Manning is barking they can move but any other OL has a guy begin to dip a shoulder and it's false start. Teams need to demand an explanation and if the NFL wants to call that fair then start game planning to do the same thing.

Hervoyel
09-13-2010, 12:30 AM
This goes back a lot further than the Colts....

I still remember when the Cowboy offensive line would essentially rise in unision and all false start every play and it was never called, despite the fact that it threw the DL's timing off often.

You see the same shifting in many Pat games, Brees/Saints games as well as Steeler games when Big Ben is under center. Its maddening but they let it happen.


Yeah but that Cowboy thing, that was frickin cool.

Not a Cowboy fan but I thought that was sweet. I'd like to see a team do that today but I think it would look stupid if anyone did it but the Cowboys and these Cowboys just don't seem like.... "The Cowboys" to me so maybe it should just stay in the grave.

It was cool though. Did I mention that I thought it was cool?

The Pencil Neck
09-13-2010, 12:31 AM
This goes back a lot further than the Colts....

I still remember when the Cowboy offensive line would essentially rise in unision and all false start every play and it was never called, despite the fact that it threw the DL's timing off often.

You see the same shifting in many Pat games, Brees/Saints games as well as Steeler games when Big Ben is under center. Its maddening but they let it happen.

But, see, those guys weren't set. They walked up, leaned over with their hands on their knees or thighs, then stood up in unison and then put their hands down into a "set" position. If a lineman hasn't put his hand on the ground, he can move around but if he puts his hand on the ground, then he's not supposed to be able to move... at least according to my understanding of the rule... and my understanding apparently has some problem.

Dutchrudder
09-13-2010, 12:57 AM
But, see, those guys weren't set. They walked up, leaned over with their hands on their knees or thighs, then stood up in unison and then put their hands down into a "set" position. If a lineman hasn't put his hand on the ground, he can move around but if he puts his hand on the ground, then he's not supposed to be able to move... at least according to my understanding of the rule... and my understanding apparently has some problem.

I recall Texas Tech started doing this a few years ago. They never set their hand on the ground which allowed them to swivel and move prior to the snap. It was very frustrating to watch, but legal in NCAA ball.

BigBull17
09-13-2010, 01:11 AM
I totally noticed this today and was wondering what the hell was going on and why there wasn't some sort of false start penalty or illegal motion like JT mentioned. The lineman were getting set and doing all sorts of stuff while communicating to one another. How are they able to do this all of the time?

The main thing is you can simulate the snap, but their linemen are jerking around and constantly moving. It is 100% a double standard. I hate that they let him do this cause its him.

El Tejano
09-13-2010, 01:57 AM
When the QB calls set, and the OL put their hands down, then it's set. Until that happens the OL can move all day long.

infantrycak
09-13-2010, 02:08 AM
When the QB calls set, and the OL put their hands down, then it's set. Until that happens the OL can move all day long.

The QB does not have to say set. The player only has to become set and the Colts constantly set and then come out.

Here are the rules:

# No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.

# No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started.

Here's another rule the Colt's routinely violate:

# After a shift or huddle all players on offensive team must come to an absolute stop for at least one second with no movement of hands, feet, head, or swaying of body.

Watch and see how often everyone, particularly Manning, are not set for a full second after he pulls the chicken dance.

Fred
09-13-2010, 04:46 AM
# No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.

# No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started.

A lot of times the Colts never assume a three-point stance, only a two-point stance. But the second item covers that. Maybe the argument is the manner in which they are listening to his highness doesn't lead the defense to believe snap has started. I say B.S. to that. The next time one of those goobers takes a two point set and then turns his head toward Peyton the defensive line needs to blast him into last week. The defense can say "hey, led me to believe snap had started. The rule is about my belief, not if it is reasonable."

Maybe after getting blasted about 20 times and penalized 100 yards they would stop. I think some D Coordinator needs to man up and force the officials hand on this. If the guy was set, even in a two-point stance and then moves, no way they should call the penalty on the defense so hit the man and force them to call something.

Joe Texan
09-13-2010, 09:08 AM
I want to thank yall for all the responses, This has been a Pet Peeve of mine beeing Payaton Manning is considered the best that there ever was. Don't get me wrong I know he is genuis, I just think he has had an edge that teeters on the side of Cheating and because it is him he gets away with it. I will guarantee that if Matt steps up to the line and says ''BLUE 42' while the lineman place thier hands on thier knees, then Matt runs up to the line yelling ""hey Eric, Knock Freeny out of then play" and all the line and Andre and Jacoby and Arian start moving around to pretend to hear what Matt is saying, It would result in a False Start and The Colts do this 60 time a game and do not get a call.

gtexan02
09-13-2010, 09:35 AM
Manning has always been the type of players to flirt with the line in order to exploit the rules to his advantage.

He's great, no doubt about it. But its a tough line to draw between innovative and exploitation. Sometimes I think Manning lies on the exploitation side a little too often.

kastofsna
09-13-2010, 11:03 AM
jeez. this has nothing to do with Manning. the Bucs did this all the time under Gruden, too. the rules are clear.

also, the Colts always had a TON of false start penalties called against them thanks to Tarik Glenn.

Rey
09-13-2010, 11:10 AM
# No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.

# No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started.


Maybe if the defense jumps when the Colts are shifting then they may call that in favor of the Texans.

But just reading that, I don't see any rules being broken by the Colts. You could argue that when any team sends a player in motion it could entice a defense to jump off sides. But no one ever does it, so it's obviously not as enticing as many people think.

CloakNNNdagger
09-13-2010, 07:22 PM
What I would like the NFL to explain is how is all of the offensive line movement by the Colts legal? How can they be in their stance and then constantly move about, lift up, etc.. without false start being called? They move their heads, shift their hips and even lift out of their stance. Happens the entire game whether Manning is under center or in the shotgun. Donít tell me it doesnít seriously slow down defensive lines accounting for at least some of the Colts success on offense. If you watch Manning when he's in the shotgun, how in the heck can he sometimes take two steps forward (and sometimes back) before the ball is snapped and not get called for a false start?

During the Colts game, I donít know how many times I was ready to come through the TV.:strangle:

Pantherstang84
09-13-2010, 08:23 PM
The short answer is yes. There are rules that apply to the Colts and then rules that apply to everyone else.

Wolf
09-13-2010, 08:33 PM
Joe was wondering about this also

guess instead of the "Jordan rules" it is the "Manning rules"
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75261

The Cush
09-13-2010, 08:33 PM
Everyone knows Peyton and the Colts love the hurry up and to constantly change up the plays at the line. That is their trademark and everyone expects them to do that so when they do it, the refs just look at that and say to themselves "That's just the Colts being the Colts"

TimeKiller
09-13-2010, 09:21 PM
I thought it was awesome when the Texans showed that movement up front. They scared the OL and Manning didn't seem to like it either. Don't tell me it isn't a little intense when Mario Williams is bouncing around...plus the more attention he draws the more guys like Okoye and Smith get through. Now, this was Manning...the big time guy...how will lesser QBs fare against this defense? I want to know.

JB
09-13-2010, 09:27 PM
I thought it was awesome when the Texans showed that movement up front. They scared the OL and Manning didn't seem to like it either. Don't tell me it isn't a little intense when Mario Williams is bouncing around...plus the more attention he draws the more guys like Okoye and Smith get through. Now, this was Manning...the big time guy...how will lesser QBs fare against this defense? I want to know.

Gonna be very interesting. Neither of the qb's tonite (both of whom we play later) look very good tonite.

Texecutioner
09-13-2010, 09:47 PM
Well this is the 2nd thread on this and I have yet to see where anyone has come up with any reasoning or rules that explain what Manning or his O line does to make all of this legal. So, at this point what do the Texans and other teams do about this? We play them twice a year and they are in our division. At this point this needs to be addressed to the league office by the Texans and other teams or maybe us fans should send in some sort of correspondence on this, unless none of us know what the hell we're talking about here, but we seem to all agree on this and that hardly ever happens on this site. The NFL needs to put a stop to it though, that's for sure. That is if we are all correct in what we're observing.

J_R
09-13-2010, 10:57 PM
Texans are sending in tape to the league office about pre-snap movements by the C/G of the Colts.

J_R
09-13-2010, 10:59 PM
Texans are sending in tape to league office about pre-snap movements by C/G of Colts.

Joe Texan
09-13-2010, 11:10 PM
yea I heard it on 610 but the question to Kubes should have been the illegal motion question, seems this guy who called in was talking of the guard tapping the center. Not the question we are debating. even the tapping should be addressed. cause they said that Saturday was coming of and injury and could not communicate with Payaton. If Meyers could not communicate with Matt we would put another center in. I have a feeling the Colts are fixin to get thiers.

silvrhand
09-14-2010, 12:07 AM
I want to thank yall for all the responses, This has been a Pet Peeve of mine beeing Payaton Manning is considered the best that there ever was. Don't get me wrong I know he is genuis, I just think he has had an edge that teeters on the side of Cheating and because it is him he gets away with it. I will guarantee that if Matt steps up to the line and says ''BLUE 42' while the lineman place thier hands on thier knees, then Matt runs up to the line yelling ""hey Eric, Knock Freeny out of then play" and all the line and Andre and Jacoby and Arian start moving around to pretend to hear what Matt is saying, It would result in a False Start and The Colts do this 60 time a game and do not get a call.

Who was it that used to give the hardest count where his head would move and jerk and would rarely get called for it.

The Cush
09-14-2010, 12:31 AM
Texans are sending in tape to league office about pre-snap movements by C/G of Colts.


I was actually hoping the Texans would do this and if its true I'm glad to hear it. Although, I bet after looking at the tape, Goodell will follow up with some sort "Wow, we really need to tweak the rules. The False Start and Illegal Motion penalties are really prohibiting Peyton from truly doing his thing. We'll meet with the competition committee after the season and see what we can do to appease Manning and his ability to further bend our established rule book."

Rey
09-14-2010, 12:49 AM
Texans are sending in tape to the league office about pre-snap movements by the C/G of the Colts.

They're sending in tape of the gaurd tapping saturday to let him know manning wanted him to hike the ball. Supposedly saturday was hurt and couldn't see manning calling for the snap

dalemurphy
09-14-2010, 01:29 AM
As long as an OL man is in a two point stance or is able to re-set for a full second, a lot of the movement is subjective. The referee must determine if it is "simulating the snap" or not. I agree with the general frustration with board members on this issue and certainly agree that Peyton gets some preferential treatment... but, at least part of the issue is the reality that those linemen are constantly in two point stances and are lined up over the ball for so long every snap. I'm sure the Texans get away with some of that movement too, but they simply aren't doing it nearly as much. They actually huddle and lineup in two point stances on occasion.

DexmanC
09-14-2010, 01:40 AM
As long as an OL man is in a two point stance or is able to re-set for a full second, a lot of the movement is subjective. The referee must determine if it is "simulating the snap" or not. I agree with the general frustration with board members on this issue and certainly agree that Peyton gets some preferential treatment... but, at least part of the issue is the reality that those linemen are constantly in two point stances and are lined up over the ball for so long every snap. I'm sure the Texans get away with some of that movement too, but they simply aren't doing it nearly as much. They actually huddle and lineup in two point stances on occasion.

When the rule about the umpire came in, Peyton wasted no time testing
that rule to its limits. Dude will use every advantage he can, and stretch
every rule to its utter limits. He will adjust to whatever the ref calls, and
push the envelope again.

infantrycak
09-14-2010, 01:55 AM
So, at this point what do the Texans and other teams do about this?

I think there are only two options (or do both):

1) get together with other teams and start a tape campaign such that after every game the Colts play the league gets a complaint and demand for explanation. (This relates to #2 and different expectations - but a year ago Del Rio was pissing and moaning to the refs that Myers was slightly moving the fingers on his non-plant hand.)

2) coach the DL themselves that Manning gets no special treatment. Fact is the teams are so used to doing it that they don't react the same way. They think maybe they saw a pinkie twitch when playing Oakland and they'll fire off but Manning and his whole crew move and they just chalk it up to being Manning. Fire off at the first twitch and then include getting a penalty on the tape.

As long as an OL man is in a two point stance or is able to re-set for a full second, a lot of the movement is subjective. The referee must determine if it is "simulating the snap" or not. I agree with the general frustration with board members on this issue and certainly agree that Peyton gets some preferential treatment... but, at least part of the issue is the reality that those linemen are constantly in two point stances and are lined up over the ball for so long every snap. I'm sure the Texans get away with some of that movement too, but they simply aren't doing it nearly as much. They actually huddle and lineup in two point stances on occasion.

The Colts do not predominantly operate out of a two point stance and obviously that doesn't immunize you after having been set anyway as we have seen plenty of two point stance false starts.

For an example - 7:48 in the 1st, 17 seconds on the play clock - everyone except maybe the RT already in a three point (editing didn't show true beginning), Manning in shotgun. At 14 seconds on the play clock Manning does his leg thing and sets. Then he walks forward and at 11 seconds Dallas Clark (who was in a three point) and the LT both stand up fully. The guards and centers lower their legs to the ground and Addai gets out of being set and walks forward. Subjectivity doesn't get you 6 seconds - Manning does.

Or another one - 3:54 in the 1st, 16 seconds on the play clock - everyone except Clark in 3 points and everyone set, Manning in shotgun. By 14 Clark is down as well. 11 seconds Manning pulls out and approaches the line. At 9 seconds the LT stands fully up and Manning grabs Clark out of his stance and has him move to the right side of the formation (interior lineman remain three point but go to ground).

Joe Texan
09-14-2010, 02:58 AM
Thanks for the review; it is illegal it is a double standard and it needs to be addressed by someone who knows where to address it to

playa465
09-14-2010, 08:20 AM
The rules are always up to interpretation by the officials no matter what we think...Helmuthead's movements to, from and laterally is legal as long as he isnt pretending to have the ball hiked to draw the opposing defense offsides. QBs have been doing this for years..

here are some of the rules from:
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/positionofplayers

Digest of Rules Main
Position of Players at Snap

1. Offensive team must have at least seven players on line.
2. Offensive players, not on line, must be at least one yard back at snap.

(Exception: player who takes snap.)
3. No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.
4. No player of either team may enter neutral zone before snap.
5. No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started. No player of the defensive team within one yard of the line of scrimmage may make an abrupt movement in an attempt to cause the offense to false start.
6. If a player changes his eligibility, the Referee must alert the defensive captain after player has reported to him.
7. All players of offensive team must be stationary at snap, except one back who may be in motion parallel to scrimmage line or backward (not forward).
8. After a shift or huddle all players on offensive team must come to an absolute stop for at least one second with no movement of hands, feet, head, or swaying of body.
9. Quarterbacks can be called for a false start penalty (five yards) if their actions are judged to be an obvious attempt to draw an opponent offside.
10. Offensive linemen are permitted to interlock legs.

ubecool454
09-14-2010, 10:36 AM
This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. Peyton often gets fully set, starts his cadence and then backs out and all the sudden people are moving everywhere. We've seen examples where Schaub gets under center and Kevin Walter twitches his heal alignment and it is a false start. Teams should be sending the worst examples into the league each week until the refs do something about it.

This irritates me to with Peyton but I'm sure they aren't doing anything wrong or the officials would be all over them. This is what makes Peyton better than the rest of the QBs...his ability to read coverages and change the plays at the line gives them a coach on the field.

CloakNNNdagger
09-14-2010, 10:40 AM
Here I've linked a PDF of THE OFFICIAL NFL RULE BOOK (http://www.fantasytailgate.com/nfl_rules.pdf).

Look at "Section 3 Putting the Ball in Play," pages 43 and 44 specifically. There is full detail with EXACT wording,and specific examples of what is and what isn't a penalty.

Rey
09-14-2010, 10:45 AM
The only thing that I think Peyton gets away with is hiking the ball after the play clock has expired and sometimes they aren't set for a full second before they hike it.

The shifting and pre-snap movement is not illegal at all.

BigBull17
09-14-2010, 11:23 AM
I was actually hoping the Texans would do this and if its true I'm glad to hear it. Although, I bet after looking at the tape, Goodell will follow up with some sort "Wow, we really need to tweak the rules. The False Start and Illegal Motion penalties are really prohibiting Peyton from truly doing his thing. We'll meet with the competition committee after the season and see what we can do to appease Manning and his ability to further bend our established rule book."

They'll tweak the rules to allow the Colts to get that Arena football head start.

BigBull17
09-14-2010, 11:44 AM
The only thing that I think Peyton gets away with is hiking the ball after the play clock has expired and sometimes they aren't set for a full second before they hike it.

The shifting and pre-snap movement is not illegal at all.

It is when you simulate the snap. All the spasmatic jerking and rocking backwards does just that.

CloakNNNdagger
09-14-2010, 11:46 AM
The only thing that I think Peyton gets away with is hiking the ball after the play clock has expired and sometimes they aren't set for a full second before they hike it.

The shifting and pre-snap movement is not illegal at all.

Penalty: For false start: Loss of five yards from previous spot.

SUPPLEMENTAL NOTES

Movement of Interior Linemen

(1) When interior lineman of the offensive team (tackle to tackle) takes or simulates a three-point stance and then moves after taking that stance, the offensive team shall be penalized for a false start. The official must blow his whistle immediately.

(2) The penalty for a false start (Article 4) shall be enforced regardless of whether snap is made. The distance penalty for the false start may be declined.

No Offensive Movement

(3) Any quick, abrupt movement by a single offensive player or by several offensive players in unison, which simulates the start of the snap is a false start.

Note: Any obvious attempt by the quarterback to draw an opponent offside is a false start
penalty.

Rey
09-14-2010, 11:52 AM
It is when you simulate the snap. All the spasmatic jerking and rocking backwards does just that.

Simulates a snap to who?

The defense doesn't jump, so obviously they are not doing something that makes them think they snapped it...

CloakNNNdagger
09-14-2010, 12:15 PM
It should also be pointed out that although eligible receivers, such as the tight end, can put their hand down on the ground in the form of a three-point stance and bring it back up (as long as it is deemed non-abrupt), offensive lineman cannot. Once one of the five ineligible receivers puts his hand on the ground, it cannot come back up, or else it is a false start.

Rey
09-14-2010, 12:27 PM
(1) When interior lineman of the offensive team (tackle to tackle) takes or simulates a three-point stance and then moves after taking that stance, the offensive team shall be penalized for a false start. The official must blow his whistle immediately.

The interior lineman thing is a little confusing to me...

Wiki says that interior linemen are both tackles, the center and the guards, and the info you posted above seems to say the same thing...

While most people would say interior linemen are the guards and the center I do think that the rule book is including the whole offensive line.

If you look at Icak's post a couple of pages back thought he points out two plays where the tackles and the TE fully stand up after being in a three point stances while he notes that the interior linemen(guards and center) stay down but shift in their stance.

By the NFL rule book I think that any O-linemen (not TE) going down in a three point stance and then standing up should be a penalty.

But I personally don't think it's a big deal. It doesn't throw defenses off...Teams are not complaining, and I don't really see any unfair advantage that the Colts are getting. They don't draw an abnormal amount of off-sides penalties so I think that as long as they aren't moving abruptly of simulating the snap of the ball they will be allowed to keep doing what they're doing.

The Texans are, however, sending in tape of the guard slapping that center to let him know Manning wanted the ball. Supposedly Saturday had an injury and couldn't see Manning. The Texans determined that slapping movement was something that could trigger an offside penalty..Did not hear them mention anything about setting and re-setting and shifting...

CloakNNNdagger
09-14-2010, 01:42 PM
Whoever has the game taped (Barrett/DaleMurphy you may want to post this), look at Manning the the OL from 7:50-7:30 in the 1st Q..........only one example, but pretty dramatic.

The Pencil Neck
09-14-2010, 02:16 PM
The interior lineman thing is a little confusing to me...

Wiki says that interior linemen are both tackles, the center and the guards, and the info you posted above seems to say the same thing...

While most people would say interior linemen are the guards and the center I do think that the rule book is including the whole offensive line.

If you look at Icak's post a couple of pages back thought he points out two plays where the tackles and the TE fully stand up after being in a three point stances while he notes that the interior linemen(guards and center) stay down but shift in their stance.

By the NFL rule book I think that any O-linemen (not TE) going down in a three point stance and then standing up should be a penalty.

But I personally don't think it's a big deal. It doesn't throw defenses off...Teams are not complaining, and I don't really see any unfair advantage that the Colts are getting. They don't draw an abnormal amount of off-sides penalties so I think that as long as they aren't moving abruptly of simulating the snap of the ball they will be allowed to keep doing what they're doing.

The Texans are, however, sending in tape of the guard slapping that center to let him know Manning wanted the ball. Supposedly Saturday had an injury and couldn't see Manning. The Texans determined that slapping movement was something that could trigger an offside penalty..Did not hear them mention anything about setting and re-setting and shifting...

The "interior" linemen really are all the down lineman: tackles, guards, and center. The non-interior linemen are the ends.

But when we talk about the "interior" of our offensive line, we're talking about the guards and center because that's the inner part of the down linemen.

We're basically using the same words in different contexts to mean different things.

TheCD
09-14-2010, 03:27 PM
(1) When interior lineman of the offensive team (tackle to tackle) takes or simulates a three-point stance and then moves after taking that stance, the offensive team shall be penalized for a false start. The official must blow his whistle immediately.


Centers tend to point at defensive players and turn their heads and such after they have placed their hand on the ball. Does anyone know why this is allowed, or am I missing something?

infantrycak
09-14-2010, 04:15 PM
Whoever has the game taped (Barrett/DaleMurphy you may want to post this), look at Manning the the OL from 7:50-7:30 in the 1st Q..........only one example, but pretty dramatic.

This is how I saw that play and on a few minutes later:

For an example - 7:48 in the 1st, 17 seconds on the play clock - everyone except maybe the RT already in a three point (editing didn't show true beginning), Manning in shotgun. At 14 seconds on the play clock Manning does his leg thing and sets. Then he walks forward and at 11 seconds Dallas Clark (who was in a three point) and the LT both stand up fully. The guards and centers lower their legs to the ground and Addai gets out of being set and walks forward. Subjectivity doesn't get you 6 seconds - Manning does.

Or another one - 3:54 in the 1st, 16 seconds on the play clock - everyone except Clark in 3 points and everyone set, Manning in shotgun. By 14 Clark is down as well. 11 seconds Manning pulls out and approaches the line. At 9 seconds the LT stands fully up and Manning grabs Clark out of his stance and has him move to the right side of the formation (interior lineman remain three point but go to ground).

CloakNNNdagger
09-14-2010, 04:32 PM
This is how I saw that play and on a few minutes later:

Sorry, somehow I missed your post!

I had a thought..............Things are a little blurry to me. The QB rules are basically for a QB under center. If the QB is in the shotgun, I wonder if he is considered backfield with this applying:

(5) Any offensive backfield player, not under center, including a kicker or a placekick holder who extends his hands, does not have to receive the snap, nor must he retract them prior to the snap.

Even if this would be the case, with his foot going up and slamming to the ground, that would seem like a set in itself, meant to draw an off side.

Note: Any obvious attempt by the quarterback to draw an opponent offside is a false start
penalty.

Rey
09-14-2010, 04:33 PM
Centers tend to point at defensive players and turn their heads and such after they have placed their hand on the ball. Does anyone know why this is allowed, or am I missing something?

I think that as long as they aren't doing something that simulates the snap of the ball or making a sudden jerking movement they'll be fine...

But yes, technically if we are following the rules exactly as written, that should be outlawed as well...

I think too much is being made of the pre-snap movements...I think that the refs and players generally have a good feel for pre-snap movement by the offense and are not concerned with it unless it's done to draw players off-sides...

Joe Texan
09-14-2010, 04:33 PM
Colts skate the rules hands down, The play Cloak is talking about I watched at his house. They get up from a three point stance to have a chat with payaton. then get back set while the guard raises his head like he is snapping the ball. It is cheating in every sence of the word and he gets away with it plain and simple.

BigBull17
09-14-2010, 11:44 PM
Simulates a snap to who?

The defense doesn't jump, so obviously they are not doing something that makes them think they snapped it...

It doesn't matter if the D jumps, jerking backwards and simulating the snap of the ball should be called. Just like all the stupid rules on DB's. They look insubstantial but they call em cause its the rule.

infantrycak
11-14-2013, 11:59 PM
Did anyone watch Colts v. Titans? A bizarre no-call. Indy player (safety I think) pulled a Titans' helmet off and then proceeds to head butt him with his helmet on. Didn't get ejected from the game. I thought that was supposed to be an automatic ejection this season. Odd even if it was discretionary.

Also odd was the Titans play calling. CJ had 2 TDs and 80 yards in the 1st half. Only got 4 carries in the 2nd half.

TexansSeminole
11-15-2013, 07:56 AM
Did anyone watch Colts v. Titans? A bizarre no-call. Indy player (safety I think) pulled a Titans' helmet off and then proceeds to head butt him with his helmet on. Didn't get ejected from the game. I thought that was supposed to be an automatic ejection this season. Odd even if it was discretionary.

Also odd was the Titans play calling. CJ had 2 TDs and 80 yards in the 1st half. Only got 4 carries in the 2nd half.

Exactly my thoughts when watching this game, on both points.

The no-call was dangerous. When the refs don't take control of an out of control situation, that's when things can really get out of hand.

The Titans' playcalling is terrible. They would run it twice in a row, then go to empty set on 3rd and 1. It was the strangest thing.

HJam72
11-15-2013, 08:21 AM
I watched a small part of that game, & I saw the play where Luck tried to sneak it for a 1st down on 3rd and like half a yard. Well, anybody could plainly see he got about 6 inches at most, but they spotted the ball 2.5 feet forward for one reason: it's the Colts with a popular QB. Titans even challenged it, but the refs get away with the whole we-can't-see-the-ball, so it's indefinitive. Well, no, you can't see the ball, but you can dang sure see that it got nowhere near the 1st down marker, just like you could tell that when you gave it to him.

Anyway, at least it's the Titans they were cheating on.

Still gotta see the final score in the game...

ArlingtonTexan
11-15-2013, 08:38 AM
I watched a small part of that game, & I saw the play where Luck tried to sneak it for a 1st down on 3rd and like half a yard. Well, anybody could plainly see he got about 6 inches at most, but they spotted the ball 2.5 feet forward for one reason: it's the Colts with a popular QB. Titans even challenged it, but the refs get away with the whole we-can't-see-the-ball, so it's indefinitive. Well, no, you can't see the ball, but you can dang sure see that it got nowhere near the 1st down marker, just like you could tell that when you gave it to him.

Anyway, at least it's the Titans they were cheating on.

Still gotta see the final score in the game...

BTW, for those think the NFL is not fixable, a game like this one would be a key example. all that is needed is a couple of missed calls and the next thing we know the colts just "turned" it on in the second half.

Blake
11-15-2013, 10:37 AM
How does CJ get 80 yards 2 TD's in first half, 20 fantasy points, then end with 20.9 fantasy points? How is that even possible?

Are the Colts just THAT good at halftime adjustments or is there something else going on? Hmmm...

infantrycak
11-15-2013, 10:40 AM
Just a funny thing - Luck ran for a 1st down in the 2nd half and then slid down. He then extended his hand up to a Titans player to be helped up. I don't recall ever seeing a QB try to get a hand up from an opposing player who wasn't offering one.

Blake
11-15-2013, 10:42 AM
Just a funny thing - Luck ran for a 1st down in the 2nd half and then slid down. He then extended his hand up to a Titans player to be helped up. I don't recall ever seeing a QB try to get a hand up from an opposing player who wasn't offering one.

Yeah, he seems to do that stuff a lot. I think he is trying to buck the trend of only helping up your own teammate. Not sure why players are such dicks about helping the other team off the ground.

Playoffs
11-15-2013, 11:08 AM
...Not sure why players are such dicks about helping the other team off the ground.

Gerald McCoy says Bucs coaches yelled at him for helping an opponent up (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/gerald-mccoy-says-bucs-coaches-yelled-him-helping-182645125--nfl.html)

Playoffs
11-15-2013, 11:36 AM
Also odd was the Titans play calling. CJ had 2 TDs and 80 yards in the 1st half. Only got 4 carries in the 2nd half.

No kidding, talk about outsmarting yourself. Halftime adjustments can be good, but sometimes you have to go with the tried and true that when you're able to run the ball and you have the lead, you run & run the clock. :mariopalm:

Double Barrel
11-15-2013, 12:41 PM
There was also a non-call for too many men on the field. I think the refs were asleep at wheel last night.

I'm really starting to hate the Colts. Even to the point of actually wanting the Titans to win a game. I think I'm going crazy.

toronto
11-15-2013, 02:49 PM
No kidding, talk about outsmarting yourself. Halftime adjustments can be good, but sometimes you have to go with the tried and true that when you're able to run the ball and you have the lead, you run & run the clock. :mariopalm:

you are assuming the Titans have capable coaching, which they do not. The talent is there - but those coaches would **** up a cup of coffee.

I'm still trying to figure out how ripping a guys helmet off, then headbutting the same player doesn't get you kicked out of a game.

HOU-TEX
11-15-2013, 03:04 PM
Heck, who wouldn't want the ball in the Fitz's hands when the game's on the line? Lol

The helmetless head-butt was ridiculous. I said "he's ejected" to the wife as soon as the tv showed it (even though she was likely not listening to me).

There were several questionable calls. The side judge was standing amongst the 3 players that were walking (coach shoulda reemed their asses) off the field. I'm not sure how the dude could miss that. I think the blow to the head call on Mathis was bogus too, but there was another penalty on the play anyway.

On a side note: To me, it seemed obvious Brown's vision is night and day compared to Richardson. That looks to be a horrible trade so far. But heck, they're winning...so it's whatev