PDA

View Full Version : Question About Mckinney


fball
03-18-2005, 04:05 PM
Alot of people on this board is always bashing mckinney, I guess I never really focused on him that much, is he really that bad as everyone says? How many sacks did he give up last year or broken up plays up the middle? :hmmm:

Vinny
03-18-2005, 04:20 PM
Center is very hard to grade and I have a tough time with figuring out how well a player is doing myself. I'm not real high on McKinney because I feel that he gets man-handled a bit much in the run game and gets pushed back a bit too much in pass protections. In fairness to McKinney, some feel that we do not use slide protections to the interior players enough and leave them isolated way too often in 5 man protections where most teams use help more (double teams) and their backs to do more than chip block. Most teams do not leave their players on an island as much (hard to believe you can leave a man isolated in the middle of the line but that is true). Palmer calls all the protections and not the line coaches so take that fwiw.

fball
03-18-2005, 04:26 PM
Well do you think that we will draft a center high or low in the draft or at all, because I know they won't get any in FA, that all depends on if they feel mckinney is not that great or if they think he's good enough.

texasguy346
03-18-2005, 04:34 PM
It's hard to tell what Casserley is going to do because he's always full of surprises. If we do draft a center in the 2nd or 3rd round it would likely take him time to develop into a starting center. That means that McKinney would likely have his starting job for another year. That doesn't necessarily mean we'll be having the same problems with the OLine next year. Pitts and Wand were both essientially first year starters. Wand was a starter for the first time in the NFL at LT, and Pitts was at a new position LG that he'd never played before. If both guys learn on the run, and play much better next season we could see a drastic difference in the OLine play. If Wand is able to take on most DE one on one as opposed to having to depend on Pitts for help then that will free up Pitts to help out McKinney with some of the stronger and bigger DTs and NTs. Wade has been solid at RT, and Weigert can be impressive when he stays healthy. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a couple of young OLinemen at C or G to provide some depth, and also to provide the eventual replacements for McKinney and Weigert.

Vinny
03-18-2005, 04:40 PM
I've always thought that one day Fred Weary would slide over to Center, but I think I was wrong on that one (fast forward to today).

I do think we draft a Center in the third round (most likely round imo). If we keep McKinney past this year he may face a situation that Foreman has faced this year as he is scheduled for $3,850,000 and $4,600,000 in the next couple of years. To me, he is not performing up to his pay...but to be fair to him, I don't break down gamefilm and he may grade out higher than I think.

powda
03-18-2005, 05:28 PM
i seem to be one of the biggest advocates on this board for replacing mckinney...for good reason. i have just about every game of every season on tape...and i have watched mckinney specifically before.

he isnt going to physically dominate anyone...i think thats a given by now.

people site the number of sacks hes given up vs other lineman on this team but what they dont realize is that fairly often with a 4 man rush in pass protection mckinney is the free lineman. he dosent have to face a dt 1 on 1. his role is to assist a guard in many instances. time after time i see mckinney assisting the wrong guard...maybe pitts gets a bad jump or is driven back repeatedly....wheres mckinney? flat footed helping weigert when he dosent need it...and vice versa when weigert needs the help and pitts dosent. more often then not its my opinion he's not making the right choices in who to help fast enough. this is when mckinney is free to assist other linemen...when hes on his own 1 on 1....mckinney is steadily beaten. as a run blocker mckinney dosent get a push...dosent play with leverage...dosent seal anyone off. about the most you can hope for is he holds his defender at the line of scrimmage just long enough for dd to make the corner etc...

in pass protection mckiney looks collegiate when he has no help and he's 1 on 1. he's just not strong enough. the bulk of pressure carr got last year came from the inside...and mckinney's been the mantle piece there since our inception. something else to consider is who has been calling the line calls at the line of scrimmage? mckinney.-------and our line play has always been subpar.

i hate to be a killjoy on this topic but im not impressed...and never have been. in addition to his poor performance he makes way to much. he needs to restructure and be replaced...i give carr credit for not having called mckinney out a long time ago.

NeViKaN
03-18-2005, 05:33 PM
Where can I find stats on sacks allowed by ol? Is it called SKA? :hmmm:

fball
03-18-2005, 05:39 PM
what good centers will be around in the third or fourth round?

tiger06
03-18-2005, 05:43 PM
I think Chris Spencer would be a great pick up in the 2nd round. If not him, then maybe Wilkerson in the 3rd.

texasguy346
03-18-2005, 05:43 PM
what good centers will be around in the third or fourth round?

There will probably be quite a few. Wilkerson and Brown come to mind. Spencer might go in the 2nd or perhaps early first but that's doubtful. David Baas can play G/C, and some think he could go in the first or early in the second. texansfan88 seems to be pretty high on Jelani Clement, and he seems to be available in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th on most mock drafts. There should be a pretty good amount of centers in the 3rd.

keyfro
03-18-2005, 06:18 PM
chris spencor is the best center in the draft this year...but brown and wilerson(when healthy) are not too far behind him...mckinny's weakness is that he is not being pushed by competition and that when we face jacksonville he never is able to handle their front two of stroud and henderson...granted there isn't a lot of guys in the nfl that can but they are our division rivals we see them twice a year so it makes sense to me that we should have a center that can better handle them...spencor is supposed to be one of the strongest lineman in the draft...brown is the strongest i believe...baas is very capable...what i really think is the probably is the lack of consistancy from weigert...he is good when not hurt...but is hurt all the freakin time...we could pick up a guard/center type of player in hopes to make him the rotational guy for both mckinny and weigert since weary and brown have failed to live up to expectations

texansfan88
03-18-2005, 06:21 PM
Jelani Clement, C from Hampton! he could end up being a real good 7th round solid backup...lacks height however at only 5'11 5/8

Sarg01
03-18-2005, 07:21 PM
Spencer's better upside, but Wilkerson has the experience to start very quickly if need be.

ledzeppelin229
03-19-2005, 12:42 AM
What's the latest word on OU C Vince Carter? I haven't heard much about him in awhile, how does he compare to the other 3rd-4th round guys that have been mentioned?

D-ReK
03-19-2005, 05:06 AM
Carter isn't strong enough to make an impact his rookie year...He has the same problem as McKinney in that he gets dominated by bigger DTs as well...He seems to have been sliding down draft boards and will probably be a 4th or 5th rounder...

BigDTexansFan
03-19-2005, 08:51 AM
Some need to remember injuries have always been a problem for OL, also last year Capers put in Dever's Blocking Scheme...not one players had used before...will be waiting to see if they get comfortable with it or struggle some more

hound
03-19-2005, 09:43 AM
Where can I find stats on sacks allowed by ol? Is it called SKA? :hmmm:


McKinney actually gave up the fewest sacks of anyone on the line... I think.

Here is where you go to find those stats.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/findplayer.asp

When you get there click on STATS and you can search for guys then by position or name.

vtech9
03-19-2005, 10:01 AM
McKinney actually gave up the fewest sacks of anyone on the line... I think.

Here is where you go to find those stats.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/findplayer.asp

When you get there click on STATS and you can search for guys then by position or name.
OFFICIALLY, he gave up fewer sacks, but what that stat doesn't show you is how many times Carr was forced out of the pocket by someone being blocked (or not blocked) by Mckinney, forcing Carr to the outside. I can picture a few times when Wand had his man blocked, but when Carr was forced out of the pocket, he got sacked by Wand's guy. Wand got credit for giving up the sack, but in actuallity, there wasn't much Wand could do. Even though Mckinney's guy didn't get the sack, it was Mckinney's guy that forced Carr to the outside.

edo783
03-19-2005, 10:39 AM
That is the problem of JUST using stats. You don't know the context of what happend. McKinny's play contributed big time to the tackles getting charged with sacks because David had to be on the move.

tacoman_j
03-25-2005, 09:26 PM
Why does Steve make so much money. According to Houstonprofootball, he is slated to count 4 mill in 05 and 4.6 mil in 06. Will he be a salary cap casualty next year?

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap.html

Texans32
03-25-2005, 09:30 PM
not unless we find a good replacement 4 him

D-ReK
03-25-2005, 09:35 PM
Why does Steve make so much money. According to Houstonprofootball, he is slated to count 4 mill in 05 and 4.6 mil in 06. Will he be a salary cap casualty next year?

Because we over-paid him in free agency our first offseason, and no I don't think he'll be a cap casualty next year...

Vinny
03-25-2005, 09:42 PM
The short answer is that when you sign FA's for an expansion team the better prospects want to play for a team that has a shot at the Super Bowl. Most FA's can't assume anything past the contract they sign (every contract can be your last one in the NFL). Expansion teams rarely win more games than they lose so you are left with paying a lot of money to second level players. I think we can see this in Wong, McKinney, Wade and to some extent perhaps Greenwood. Since you can't manufacture a player like in Madden, whatchugonnado? You limit your FA signings and draft well until you can start attracting players because you are a Super Bowl contender, not just because you have cap room and nobody to beat out for a job.

LBblitz
03-25-2005, 10:04 PM
is he really that bad as everyone says?


Does a bear **** in the woods? :hmmm:

vtech9 was right because many of the sacks were an effect from mckinney but were credited to other linemen. IMO Wand would/will do drastically better if we had a better C.

done88
03-26-2005, 02:03 PM
Mckinney should be playing guard. That is what he played in Indy and that is what he should play here. He does a pretty good job at center but, what would be better is to move Pitts back to Tackle, Mckinney to Guard and Washington to Center. That is the best line the Texans have.

keyfro
03-26-2005, 03:22 PM
well i must say i believe the best thing for casserly to do is draft a center in either the 2nd or 3rd round...preferably spencer or wilkerson...give them a year or two to develop by then mckinny's huge contract will be up and we won't have to re-sign him unless he comes back for half the pay to be a back up...i still have my doubts about wand...but weigert is another guy i think we could look to replace...although he is very solid guard (when healthy which isn't too often anymore) he is getting up there in age believe he will be 33 or so this year...just having better depth behind him could help us out...Weary and Brown seem to be major dissapointments...weary was a first day draft pick who has yet to live up to his potential and brown we draft in the supplemental draft who never took over any starting job...if spencer isn't there in the second but Baas is i would be shocked if we weren't selecting him...Baas is the best guard in the draft maybe the best lineman in the draft and could fill in at Center and guard giving us a much needed improved depth on the o-line

bckey
03-26-2005, 08:59 PM
The short answer is that when you sign FA's for an expansion team the better prospects want to play for a team that has a shot at the Super Bowl. Most FA's can't assume anything past the contract they sign (every contract can be your last one in the NFL). Expansion teams rarely win more games than they lose so you are left with paying a lot of money to second level players. I think we can see this in Wong, McKinney, Wade and to some extent perhaps Greenwood. Since you can't manufacture a player like in Madden, whatchugonnado? You limit your FA signings and draft well until you can start attracting players because you are a Super Bowl contender, not just because you have cap room and nobody to beat out for a job.

Very well said Vinny.

Texansbacker
03-27-2005, 09:56 PM
McKinney will improve along with Wand and Pitts, Wiegert and Wade; but he will never be a dominant force in the middle able to go one on with a Henderson. Perhaps, and it would be nice, for CC and Mr. McNair to pick up a young strong center in the draft, say Chris Spencer, to push for a starting job and providing valuable depth while looking to the future. The draft will be interesting since we have o-line and d-line needs and who will be selected.

TexansNeedRBin05
03-27-2005, 10:01 PM
Hes ranked like 10 pts over every other Texans linemen in ESPN NFL 2k5 why is he so bad?

TexansTrueFan
03-27-2005, 10:06 PM
oh yeah and in NFL 2k5 the texans were ranked pretty far above the chargers, give me a break.

Texansbacker
03-27-2005, 10:24 PM
Hes ranked like 10 pts over every other Texans linemen in ESPN NFL 2k5 why is he so bad?

Besides the fact that he is an Aggie? Just kidding. :woot

TexansNeedRBin05
03-28-2005, 08:44 AM
I mean indiviually does he do a bad job blocking or is he just eating space and yall are pissed at him?

texasguy346
03-28-2005, 10:35 AM
He doesn't do a good job of blocking the bigger DTs, and he gets pushed back when pass blocking. He also doesn't do a good job of helping Weigert or Pitts when they need help.

Texansbacker
03-28-2005, 12:38 PM
McKinney has been serviceable and durable if nothing else. Hopefully, he will prove worthy of his high sticker price with some new blood pushing for his position or at the least we will fill the center postion with potential, again hopefully.

cadahnic
03-28-2005, 12:45 PM
McKinney is a soldier on that offensive line. If we had someone else who could play center we could move McKinney to right guard and our line just got alot better. Wiegert is bad and he quite slow footed. Wade is serviceable, Wand jury is not out on, Pitts battles but cant keep the play count. I mean we could have a good line we just have people playing were they should not be. Hopefully we get a good C in the draft in rounds 2 or 3. Hopefully in round 3 since we should go D first round and then go after Reggie Brown in the second.

fball
03-28-2005, 04:17 PM
Hey guy's I hear that people are saying that the texans might draft alex barron if he is available, I would be ok with that, my question is for anyone here that has scouted this guy, is he more like a orlando pace or more like a bryant mckinney, because if he has the potential to be like orlando then I say we draft this guy with 13, but anything less I don't know if I would take the chance.

sulli60
04-01-2005, 03:45 PM
The only dominating O-Line performance I have ever seen from the Texans was Weigart playing in Indy 2003 season. It was a beautiful running game duel between Edge and DD and Weigart was getting to the secondary. In 2004 I was expecting more, but very disappointed so I'm wishing Weigart can stay healthy and play 16 games like he did that day. :boxing:

TheOgre
04-01-2005, 03:53 PM
When healthy I grade them as
Wade - average pass blocker and good run blocker
Wiegert - average to poor pass blocker and average to good run blocker
McKinney - average to poor pass blocker and average to poor run blocker

It is hard to gauge Wand or Pitts since last year was their first in their respective positions. I'll give them another season before judging their level of abilities

BornOrange
04-02-2005, 02:00 AM
McKinney is a soldier on that offensive line. If we had someone else who could play center we could move McKinney to right guard and our line just got alot better.
McKinney is best suited for center. If he is subpar at center he will be even worse at guard. Sure, he played guard for the Colts. But Manning and James had a lot to do with that line looking good. The Texans want a more powerful line and McKinney is just too much of a finesse player.

HardKnockTexan
04-05-2005, 01:57 PM
He's a decent center. He does get beat a lot... but so does the rest of the line. What I do know is this: I waited on him at Perry's a little before the start of last season. It was him and his girlfriend.. some flakey lookin blonde bimbo type.. not nearly the looker i'd expect from an NFL player. But saying that, on a $100 bill.. he tiped me $8.50!!!! Guess those millions of dollars dont go as far as they used to.

infantrycak
04-05-2005, 03:50 PM
He's a decent center. He does get beat a lot... but so does the rest of the line. What I do know is this: I waited on him at Perry's a little before the start of last season. It was him and his girlfriend.. some flakey lookin blonde bimbo type.. not nearly the looker i'd expect from an NFL player. But saying that, on a $100 bill.. he tiped me $8.50!!!! Guess those millions of dollars dont go as far as they used to.

Well did you earn a bigger tip?

HardKnockTexan
04-05-2005, 04:08 PM
i've been in fine dining for 6 years and take pride in my job. Personally, I expect 20% from every table I have. If that table happens to have an NFL player sitting at it.. then I guess I get hopefull for a slightly better than average tip. Less than 10% is unexceptable from any person eating out, especially when you're at a $50 a person restaurant. I've also waited on Billy Miller, David Carr and Evander Hollyfield, all who were very down to earth and tipped fairly. Steve McKinney had steaksauce dripping off his chin, was loud, bossy and a horrible tipper. I lost a lot of respect for him on that night.

infantrycak
04-05-2005, 04:34 PM
Personally, I expect 20% from every table I have.

Sorry, you lost me with that statement. You may be a very good service person, but IMO in recent years (hey I get to make one of those Porky decline of western civilization statements :thumbup ) while the standard tip has crept from 15% to 20% the attitude of service personnel on average has become horrible and reeks of expectations of tips without a corresponding sense of responsibility to perform well, timely and pleasantly. Not aiming this comment directly at you, you may expect 20% because you expect to do a job worthy of earning it--your statement is really just a foil for a rant on a pet peeve. It may well be that there has been a decline in the graciousness of customers as well.

HardKnockTexan
04-06-2005, 01:16 AM
If you go to chilies or benegans or the likes... 15% is fine and dandy. But once you decide to go out to fine dining, the servers there have been in the business for years. They knew their jobs and most that i have worked with are as good as can be expected. ALL servers work off tips. We get paid $2.13 an hour and that just covers the taxes. My paychecks are void every week. Now, if service is lacking, the tip should show the disaproval. But if you never have to ask for a thing. Everything goes perfectly throughout your meal. Then 20% +++ should be the norm once you decide to take it to a fine dining restaurant.

ccdude730
04-06-2005, 06:13 AM
very true. my sister was a tip freak after she worked at a restraunt and if she went out with us she would have to approve of the tip before we put it down.

of course if the person forgets to put your order in or is barely keeping up with your table - straight 15% because they still have to make money and it might have been an off day. when the service is exceptional and they are very friendly and notify you of delays and everything else to make your dining experience great - a generous tip should be given.

i somehow feel that is off-topic so i will say that when mckinney plays bad, the rest of the line looks bad because there is no pocket to step up into. can be misleading when looking at stats and other things. i feel a C in the draft might be able to push stevie for his job by the middle of the season.

HardKnockTexan
04-06-2005, 10:34 AM
here's someone the Texans may think of picking up with one of their 3rd round picks:
Chris Spencer

Official Bio College: Ole Miss Height: 6-27/8
Position: Center Weight: 309
Class: Junior 40-Yard: 5.18
Strengths: Has good size...A very good athlete...Excellent quickness...Is extremely strong...Versatile and has experience at both guard spots as well as center...Smart and makes all the line calls...Still improving and has a lot of upside.
Weaknesses: Doesn't have a ton of starting experience...Has only played center for one full season with the Rebels...Will need to coaching and development to work on mastering the nuances of the position.
Notes: Was a top prospect coming out of the prep ranks...Should rank among the top centers available due to his size, athleticism and potential.

i got this off of www.nfldraftcountdown.com