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J_R
08-31-2010, 04:25 PM
according to John Clayton

THE ELITE:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger
5. Brett Favre
6. Aaron Rodgers
7. Philip Rivers
8. Tony Romo
9. Donovan McNabb
10. Carson Palmer
11. Eli Manning
12. Joe Flacco
13. Matt Ryan
14. Matt Schaub
Analysis: Schaub finally moved into the elite group by staying healthy and throwing for a league-high 4,770 yards in 2009. (By the way, that was 270 yards more than Peyton Manning had last season.) The next step for Schaub and the Texans? Win in the AFC South and make the playoffs for the first time.
Arrow is pointing: Up

CHAD PENNINGTON DIVISION:

15. Jay Cutler
16. Kyle Orton
17. Matt Hasselback
18. Vince Young
19. Jason Campbell
20. David Garrad
21. Alex Smith
22. Matt Cassel

HIT OR MISS DIVISION:

23. Mark Sanchez
24. Kevin Kolb
25. Chad Henne
26. Byron Leftwich
27. Matthew Stafford
28. Matt Leinart/Derek Anderson
29. Josh Freeman
30. Sam Bradford
31. Trent Edwards
32. Matt Moore
33. Jake Delhomme


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview10/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=5489176

gtexan02
08-31-2010, 04:37 PM
Is it an actual ranking or is it jus tthe order in which they were put into the "elite" group? Because theres no way I would choose Ryan or flacco over schaub. Eli either.

My list of hte top 14 (for this year):

1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Matt Schaub
7. Brett Favre
8. Philip Rivers
9. Tony Romo
10. Donovan McNabb
11. Carson Palmer
12. Eli Manning
13. Joe Flacco
14. Matt Ryan

Dutchrudder
08-31-2010, 04:52 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger
5. Brett Favre
6. Aaron Rodgers
7. Philip Rivers
8. Tony Romo
9. Donovan McNabb
10. Carson Palmer
11. Eli Manning
12. Joe Flacco
13. Matt Ryan
14. Matt Schaub

Funny how they put Favre one slot ahead of Aaron Rodgers, I'd put Rodgers at 4 over Favre and Ben. I think Clayton relies too much on past accomplishments instead of current and expected production for the 2010 season.

Guys who are over rated on his list:
Donovan McNabb - was at one time elite, last year not so much and I don't see any reason to think he will be this year
Carson Palmer - never was elite, hasn't accomplished much
Tony Romo - always falls apart when it really matters. Great regular season numbers and record, but still can't make it happen in the playoffs
Eli Manning - was elite during the Super Bowl run, but last season was no where close to being 'elite'
Joe Flacco - He should be on the cusp of elite status. He looks great and has high potential but I don't believe he is elite quite yet.
Matt Ryan - same with Flacco, he should be on the cusp. He has a lot of potential, but last year he wasn't much better than Cutler.
Matt Schaub - He should also be 'on the bubble' to elite status. Like Romo, he needs to prove he can get a win in the postseason, but he has to get his team there first.

The Pencil Neck
08-31-2010, 04:59 PM
How is it "Elite" if almost half the league's starting QB's meet the criteria?

Dutchrudder
08-31-2010, 05:06 PM
This is how I would rate and rank them:

Elite:
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Brett Favre
6. Ben Roethlisberger

-----------------------------
Above Average:
7. Philip Rivers
8. Matt Schaub
9. Tony Romo
10. Joe Flacco
11. Eli Manning
12. Matt Ryan

----------------------
Average:
13. Donovan McNabb
14. Jay Cutler
15. Kevin Kolb
16. Carson Palmer
17.Vince Young
18. David Garrad
19. Jason Campbell
20. Kyle Orton
21. Mark Sanchez
22. Chad Henne
23. Alex Smith
24. Matthew Stafford

-------------------------
Below Average:
25. Matt Cassel
26. Byron Leftwich
27. Sam Bradford
28. Matt Leinart/Derek Anderson
29. Josh Freeman
30. Matt Hasselback
31. Trent Edwards
32. Matt Moore
33. Jake Delhomme

gtexan02
08-31-2010, 05:09 PM
If you read the article, Clayton says that the word "Elite" means a QB that can win a superbowl. With a few notable exceptions, most superbowl teams have a talented QB. He doesn't believe any of the teams with non-elite QBs have legitimate supebowl chances.

Ignore the word "elite" and think of it in those criteria. Thats why half the league is on there

kiwitexansfan
08-31-2010, 05:12 PM
Oh you mean elite as in Trent Dilfer?

TheDrifter
08-31-2010, 05:17 PM
This is how I would rate and rank them:



I mostly agree with this..except I would bump Hassellback up quite a bit. When healthy he can still win games.

But his supporting cast has been awful for years. WRs who cant catch and RBs who are either old, useless, beat up or a combo of all three.

Dutchrudder
08-31-2010, 05:38 PM
I mostly agree with this..except I would bump Hassellback up quite a bit. When healthy he can still win games.

But his supporting cast has been awful for years. WRs who cant catch and RBs who are either old, useless, beat up or a combo of all three.

Honestly, anyone from 20 to 32 is completely expendable IMO, so it's really no particular order. None of them have proven much, and I'm ranking them mostly based on 2009 production and 2010 projections. Hasslebeck might be great with New England's offense, but so was Matt Cassel. It's a tough choice between rating the raw talent of the individual and the way they perform on a sub-par team.

thunderkyss
08-31-2010, 05:44 PM
How is it "Elite" if almost half the league's starting QB's meet the criteria?

Good question.

My list of
Elite
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Brett Favre

gtexan02
08-31-2010, 06:16 PM
The sports nation rank 'em does a much better job
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=16&listId=23#topOfList

Ckw
08-31-2010, 06:50 PM
Man how anyone could still rate Favre as elite is beyond me.

Anyway, here is my list:

Elite
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers

On the Bubble
Philip Rivers
Ben Roethlisberger
Matt Schaub
Tony Romo

Above Average
Donovan McNabb
Joe Flacco
Matt Ryan
Carson Palmer
Brett Favre

Average
Eli Manning
Jay Cutler
Matt Hasselbeck
David Garrard
Kyle Orton
Sam Bradford (prediction)
Vince Young
Jason Campbell

Below Average (but of course with the potential to improve)
Kevin Kolb
Matt Cassell
Chad Henne
Alex Smith
Mark Sanchez
Matthew Stafford
Trent Edward
Matt Moore
Josh Freeman
Matt Leinart
Byron Leftwich
Derek Anderson
Jake Delhomme

thunderkyss
08-31-2010, 07:09 PM
Man how anyone could still rate Favre as elite is beyond me.

Anyway...

:facepalm:

Blazing Arrow
08-31-2010, 09:23 PM
Know you guys have obvious bias against young but he really should be in the above average section. He is not a stat player but Win Loss should show that for what ever reason he makes it happen. Yeah it is a team thing but 26-13 is nothing to just over look.

gary
08-31-2010, 09:41 PM
Man how anyone could still rate Favre as elite is beyond me.

Anyway, here is my list:His health is a lager factor but other that Farve is still elite. Why? Because age does not matter in the NFL stats do and he had the best season in his whole career last season I think that is why. He might get injured and never play again this season but last season he proved to everyone that as long as his ankle holds up he is still elite.

Dutchrudder
08-31-2010, 09:52 PM
Know you guys have obvious bias against young but he really should be in the above average section. He is not a stat player but Win Loss should show that for what ever reason he makes it happen. Yeah it is a team thing but 26-13 is nothing to just over look.

It's not all about wins and losses. Yes that helps his case, and IMO is the only thing keeping him from falling into the 20-32 QB range. His career passing numbers are terrible in the NFL. His best year as a QB was a passer rating of 82.3 over 12 games. His career passer rating is a 72.3 with 32 TDs and 39 INTs. Add in his 12 rushing TDs and he's still an average QB. There is nothing extraordinary about him that makes him an above average NFL QB.

Just for the hell of it, here are my 'above average' QBs. If you were making a team and could have any one of these guys, which would you choose?

Above Average:
7. Philip Rivers
8. Matt Schaub
9. Tony Romo
10. Joe Flacco
11. Eli Manning
12. Matt Ryan

17. Vince Young

Dutchrudder
08-31-2010, 09:56 PM
Man how anyone could still rate Favre as elite is beyond me.



My rating of Favre is mostly based on his performance last year, which was simply amazing. I had low expectations for him coming in, and he totally blew me away with his performance. The guy still has it, and performed at an elite level last year. He may fall apart this year, but I'll wait until that happens to demote him.

b0ng
08-31-2010, 10:01 PM
Know you guys have obvious bias against young but he really should be in the above average section. He is not a stat player but Win Loss should show that for what ever reason he makes it happen. Yeah it is a team thing but 26-13 is nothing to just over look.

Guys who throw more picks than TD's and aren't dangerous through the air really shouldn't be considered above average. All Young really proves is that the Titans have a great running game and an above average defense.

Blazing Arrow
08-31-2010, 10:21 PM
Guys who throw more picks than TD's and aren't dangerous through the air really shouldn't be considered above average. All Young really proves is that the Titans have a great running game and an above average defense.

He has had some pretty amazing games where he pulled it out and it was not the D or the running game. The AZ game last season. The 21 point come back against the Giants the game against the Texans where he ran for the TD. For a guy that has played less then 40 games to come out like that ... idk seems pretty impressive to me.

He has played games where a lot of the Titans D was injured or not really playing very well. Titans play a system. We plug different players in it all the time but some how when he is in the team plays at a different level. I feel coaching has a ton to do with it but still .... even as a Titan fan watching the games you think heck we are done. No way on our 1 are we driving 99 yards for a TD with less then 2 min. You have to be realistic at times and then somehow it happens. Or when the team is down 21 and don't have the ball at the start of the 4th you think ok well hope they learned something off this. THEN YOU WIN?

Not putting that 'he just wins' crap on him but at times ...

b0ng
08-31-2010, 10:39 PM
He has had some pretty amazing games where he pulled it out and it was not the D or the running game. The AZ game last season. The 21 point come back against the Giants the game against the Texans where he ran for the TD. For a guy that has played less then 40 games to come out like that ... idk seems pretty impressive to me.

He has played games where a lot of the Titans D was injured or not really playing very well. Titans play a system. We plug different players in it all the time but some how when he is in the team plays at a different level. I feel coaching has a ton to do with it but still .... even as a Titan fan watching the games you think heck we are done. No way on our 1 are we driving 99 yards for a TD with less then 2 min. You have to be realistic at times and then somehow it happens. Or when the team is down 21 and don't have the ball at the start of the 4th you think ok well hope they learned something off this. THEN YOU WIN?

Not putting that 'he just wins' crap on him but at times ...

Judging from what I've seen from him in the regular seasons he's played, he has had an RB who was having an all world season (Who's carries went up by like 6 or so a game once VY came in) and a defense that had an all world season. He's also sat out practically an entire season (The best season the Titans have had in recent memory to boot) due to. . . well. . . his mental faculties not being on the level, I guess?

For a guy who's been in the league for 4 years now, I think we should have a much clearer picture of his abilities. If he was really worth the money he's paid he would've had you guys in the Superbowl in 2008. That team you fielded that year was a ****ing monster and he couldn't handle being heckled in the first game of the season.

Ckw
08-31-2010, 10:57 PM
Well none of you on here can ever say I am unwilling to admit when I'm wrong. I guess my hatred for all things Favre caused me to conveniently forget just how good of a season he had last year. I rescind my earlier statement. I personally do not consider Favre an elite QB, but I can certainly see why others would think so. I guess this year will tell us for sure. If he dominates like he did last year, he certainly belongs in the elite category.

The Pencil Neck
08-31-2010, 11:01 PM
Well none of you on here can ever say I am unwilling to admit when I'm wrong. I guess my hatred for all things Favre caused me to conveniently forget just how good of a season he had last year. I rescind my earlier statement. I personally do not consider Favre an elite QB, but I can certainly see why others would think so. I guess this year will tell us for sure. If he dominates like he did last year, he certainly belongs in the elite category.

I've never been a fan of Favre. I've always thought he was over-rated; he's had great years but he's also had years that weren't very good. But last year was his best season. And I've got to give him credit for that.

I'll put him in the almost Elite group. And I do that because last year was so great and I don't think he can do it again but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

b0ng
08-31-2010, 11:05 PM
The thing with Brett Favre is that you don't know which Brett Favre you are going to get from season to season. The "good" Brett Favre is going to throw ridiculous TD's from positions that most normal QB's would wilt in. Unfortunately the "bad" Brett Favre gunslings the ball with no thought of what bad things might happen and will end up with 20+ interceptions for the year. He's pretty durable (especially for a 40 year old), but he's not going to make your life very easy in the offseason.

All in all, he can be elite, but since his body of work is so huge, you can easily point to a year or two or five or seven in which he's barely above average or even adequate.

Right now, he's elite.

Texan_Bill
08-31-2010, 11:36 PM
:facepalm: Flaming Sparrow!

Ckw
09-01-2010, 12:19 AM
The thing with Brett Favre is that you don't know which Brett Favre you are going to get from season to season. The "good" Brett Favre is going to throw ridiculous TD's from positions that most normal QB's would wilt in. Unfortunately the "bad" Brett Favre gunslings the ball with no thought of what bad things might happen and will end up with 20+ interceptions for the year. He's pretty durable (especially for a 40 year old), but he's not going to make your life very easy in the offseason.

All in all, he can be elite, but since his body of work is so huge, you can easily point to a year or two or five or seven in which he's barely above average or even adequate.

Right now, he's elite.

Perfectly put. I agree completely. Based on last year, he is elite. But personally, I think "elite" status should be reserved for guys that do it for more than 1 season AND also have some success in the playoffs. This is why for me even though guys like Schaub and Romo have put up amazing numbers, they don't belong in the "elite" category.

Favre, if memory serves correct, has been average at best in the playoffs as of late, and his recent regular season play, until last season, has been average and even below average at times. These, as well as the whole diva thing, are my reasons for not considering Favre elite nor even on the bubble.

I'll admit, what he did last year was incredible. If he does it again this year AND can make it to the postseason and at least put up average numbers, I will maybe reconsider.

The Pencil Neck
09-01-2010, 01:38 AM
Favre, if memory serves correct, has been average at best in the playoffs as of late, and his recent regular season play, until last season, has been average and even below average at times.

After last season and his career low 7 interceptions, Favre even said something like "Wow? 7 Interceptions for the year? I've had games with almost that many interceptions."

infantrycak
09-01-2010, 01:59 AM
Judging from what I've seen from him in the regular seasons he's played, he has had an RB who was having an all world season (Who's carries went up by like 6 or so a game once VY came in) and a defense that had an all world season.

Last year CJ got 10 more carries per game and the Titans threw about 10 less times per game when VY started. Clearly the coaching staff was not putting the game in VY's hands they were handing it to the OL and CJ. And unlike VY's rookie season where he legitimately opened up the running game CJ's YPC went down by a full yard. They were counting on Collins, it didn't work so they went back to grind it out football.

mattieuk
09-01-2010, 02:44 AM
Hasn't Joe Flacco been the quintisential 'Chad Pennington' QB thus far? And how Palmer is still in the 'top 14' goodness knows.

thunderkyss
09-01-2010, 02:58 AM
He has had some pretty amazing games where he pulled it out and it was not the D or the running game. The AZ game last season. The 21 point come back against the Giants the game against the Texans where he ran for the TD. For a guy that has played less then 40 games to come out like that ... idk seems pretty impressive to me.


I thought his 3 TD 1 int game against Miami was his best QBing game yet. But he's definitely going to have to cut down on the INTs to be considered an above average QB.

If we're going to make up stats (W/L as a starter) then we should make up a new position for him. QBs are judged by a standard set of numbers, shouldn't have to change anything, if you want to compare Young among them.

& I'm one of the few guys who respects VY for what he is, I'm just being real. If he continues as he is currently, I think time will prove he is an above average (maybe elite) football player. But he's going to have to improve as a QB, if he's going to ever win a championship.

thunderkyss
09-01-2010, 03:02 AM
Well none of you on here can ever say I am unwilling to admit when I'm wrong. I guess my hatred for all things Favre caused me to conveniently forget just how good of a season he had last year. I rescind my earlier statement. I personally do not consider Favre an elite QB, but I can certainly see why others would think so. I guess this year will tell us for sure. If he dominates like he did last year, he certainly belongs in the elite category.

To me, elite means Hall-of-Fame. If you're going to get in, First Ballot no less, your f#$@ing elite.

thunderkyss
09-01-2010, 03:05 AM
Perfectly put. I agree completely. Based on last year, he is elite. But personally, I think "elite" status should be reserved for guys that do it for more than 1 season AND also have some success in the playoffs. This is why for me even though guys like Schaub and Romo have put up amazing numbers, they don't belong in the "elite" category.

Favre, if memory serves correct, has been average at best in the playoffs as of late, and his recent regular season play, until last season, has been average and even below average at times. These, as well as the whole diva thing, are my reasons for not considering Favre elite nor even on the bubble.

I'll admit, what he did last year was incredible. If he does it again this year AND can make it to the postseason and at least put up average numbers, I will maybe reconsider.

Because 20 years isn't enough....

:facepalm:

sometexansfan
09-01-2010, 03:10 AM
To me, elite means Hall-of-Fame. If you're going to get in, First Ballot no less, your f#$@ing elite.

Okay, then how come you don't have Brady considered one of the elite QB's in the game then?

thunderkyss
09-01-2010, 03:24 AM
Okay, then how come you don't have Brady considered one of the elite QB's in the game then?

That's to spite my wife.


:kitten:

sometexansfan
09-01-2010, 03:33 AM
That's to spite my wife.


:kitten:

Haha, good enough reason for me.

HJam72
09-01-2010, 06:05 AM
There are no elite QBs in this league, because they're not in the HOF yet. :gamer:

Blazing Arrow
09-01-2010, 02:21 PM
:facepalm: Flaming Sparrow!

Never said he was elite as Bong implies. I said he was above average.

Blazing Arrow
09-01-2010, 02:25 PM
I thought his 3 TD 1 int game against Miami was his best QBing game yet. But he's definitely going to have to cut down on the INTs to be considered an above average QB.

If we're going to make up stats (W/L as a starter) then we should make up a new position for him. QBs are judged by a standard set of numbers, shouldn't have to change anything, if you want to compare Young among them.

& I'm one of the few guys who respects VY for what he is, I'm just being real. If he continues as he is currently, I think time will prove he is an above average (maybe elite) football player. But he's going to have to improve as a QB, if he's going to ever win a championship.

Who is making up stats?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounVi00.htm

39 games started 26-13.

Ckw
09-01-2010, 02:35 PM
To me, elite means Hall-of-Fame. If you're going to get in, First Ballot no less, your f#$@ing elite.

Was Brett Favre elite? Yes. Do I think he is still an elite QB? No. Montana was an elite QB, but Montana was not an elite QB at the end of his career. First ballot HOF doesn't mean shit in this discussion. We are talking about this season.

Because 20 years isn't enough....

:facepalm:

See above. Also, see this (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/1025/career;_ylt=A0LEa5lym35M._cAaW_.uLYF). Yes, he had a great year last year but in 08, the guy was the single biggest reason why the Jets crumbled down the stretch with his 22 INTs. He had a decent year before that (probably slightly above average) and two terrible years before that with 18 and 29 INTs.

He played well in the playoffs last season against Dallas, but had a terrible game against the Saints and is one of the main reasons the Vikings didn't make it to the Super Bowl. In 08, his terrible play kept the Jets out of the playoffs. In 07, he did exactly what he did last season: he played well in the divisional game but choked in the Conference Championship. Before that, he was in the playoffs in 04-05 and put on one of the worst performances of any QB in playoff history. He was abysmal.

:facepalm:

thunderkyss
09-01-2010, 06:49 PM
Was Brett Favre elite? Yes. Do I think he is still an elite QB? No. Montana was an elite QB, but Montana was not an elite QB at the end of his career. First ballot HOF doesn't mean shit in this discussion. We are talking about this season.

:facepalm:

I am not a Bret Favre fan, that would be my brother.

When I first saw him in Greenbay, I told my brother (he was smitten right away) that is the luckiest man alive. I told him that again in '94, & in '95. '96 I just stopped arguing with him, after a while, you just got to stop calling it luck.

I've watched him all these years, and realize he was in fact lucky, that he played with some very talented players. But he trusted those players enough, to every now and then, just toss it up there and let them make a play.

He's never changed. Some of those INTs definitely bad decisions by Brett Favre. Others, he's giving his players opportunities to make plays.

Again, I'm not a fan, but I respect what he has done in this league, and appreciate what it takes to do it over 20 years.

When the man has talent around him, he does well, when he has to carry the team... maybe that isn't his forte...

That 2008 Jets team. Laverneous Cole, Jericho Cotchery, Thomas Jones. Not bad, but not Adrian Peterson, Sidney Rice, or Percy Harvin.

Again, I'm not a big fan, but I think his body of work speaks for him. If your interpretation is different, whatever.

THE NFL
09-02-2010, 10:19 PM
I love this anti VY argument that when he took over as QB they just handed the ball to CJ to keep it out of his hands. It bulchit. The reason the carries went up, the passes went down and CJ's per carry average went down is the Titans were ahead in games, not behind and having to chuck it down the field. Fisher plays a ball control eat up the clock style. It has NOTHING to do with VY and whether he can throw or not, NOTHING.

Like has been said by me 1000 times... VY is no great passer. But he is good enough.

If VY wasnt from Houston and hadnt gone to UT you guys wouldnt be this hard on him.

jaayteetx
09-02-2010, 10:22 PM
I love this anti VY argument that when he took over as QB they just handed the ball to CJ to keep it out of his hands. It bulchit. The reason the carries went up, the passes went down and CJ's per carry average went down is the Titans were ahead in games, not behind and having to chuck it down the field. Fisher plays a ball control eat up the clock style. It has NOTHING to do with VY and whether he can throw or not, NOTHING.

Like has been said by me 1000 times... VY is no great passer. But he is good enough.

If VY wasnt from Houston and hadnt gone to UT you guys wouldnt be this hard on him.

If VY wasn't from Houston and hadn't gone to UT, you wouldn't have all the VY jock sniffers either.

JB
09-02-2010, 10:23 PM
I love this anti VY argument that when he took over as QB they just handed the ball to CJ to keep it out of his hands. It bulchit. The reason the carries went up, the passes went down and CJ's per carry average went down is the Titans were ahead in games, not behind and having to chuck it down the field. Fisher plays a ball control eat up the clock style. It has NOTHING to do with VY and whether he can throw or not, NOTHING. Like has been said by me 1000 times... VY is no great passer. But he is good enough.

If VY wasnt from Houston and hadnt gone to UT you guys wouldnt be this hard on him.

Right! :rolleyes:

Norg
09-04-2010, 12:02 PM
there should be a super elite Section

Manning & Brady