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View Full Version : Placement of the Ump


Yankee_In_TX
08-27-2010, 10:22 PM
Brees got blown for snapping a play tonight before the ump was set (though they undid the penalty after reviewing the previous play).

While I am happy Manning and Brees and some other QB's will get screwed - but they are changing the way the game is played and I don't like it.

JB
08-27-2010, 10:26 PM
It's a slippery slope, but the teams will adjust. Just like they did when they put in the five yard rule.

CloakNNNdagger
08-27-2010, 10:40 PM
Brees got blown for snapping a play tonight before the ump was set (though they undid the penalty after reviewing the previous play).

While I am happy Manning and Brees and some other QB's will get screwed - but they are changing the way the game is played and I don't like it.

If you missed my posts buried in the Thread " Gameday Thread: Texans at Colts 11-08" in the Texans Talk section (posts 1224-1226), you might be interested in taking a look at it.

It's definitely got the potential of giving some QBs a fit.........including our most favorite Manning.:)

rmartin65
08-27-2010, 10:43 PM
I dont like it. Sure, safety is important. But refs survived for a long time without this rule. What this is doing is messing with the game. Messing with it unnecessarily.

JB
08-27-2010, 10:45 PM
I dont like it. Sure, safety is important. But refs survived for a long time without this rule. What this is doing is messing with the game. Messing with it unnecessarily.

I don't get it. How is this messing with the game any more than instant replay or the 5 yd rule?

cuppacoffee
08-28-2010, 12:16 AM
I don't get it. How is this messing with the game any more than instant replay or the 5 yd rule?


I need a refresher. What is this 5 yard rule you speak of ?

The refs aren't supposed to interfere with the game itself. With this new rule, they do.

Teams do not get a five yard penalty because of instant replay.

If they are worried about the ref, put him in pads, give him a helmet.


:coffee:

infantrycak
08-28-2010, 11:49 AM
I need a refresher. What is this 5 yard rule you speak of ?

5 yards for contact with a receiver.

rmartin65
08-28-2010, 11:57 AM
I don't get it. How is this messing with the game any more than instant replay or the 5 yd rule?

It slows down the game. While it will help the Texans against Manning, I dont like it. Let the players play. I dont like the 5 yard rule as well, but I dont make the decisions. The most I can do is comment on them.

ChampionTexan
08-28-2010, 12:11 PM
I don't get it. How is this messing with the game any more than instant replay or the 5 yd rule?

Well, ignoring whether it's a good rule or a bad rule, the 5 yard rule was put in with the intent to change the game - because the decision had been made that there was something about it that could be improved. Instant replay didn't change the way teams played the game - it's intent was to allow the rules to be more accurately enforced (or not enforced as the case may be).

The intent of the change we're talking about here is to protect the Umpire from physical harm - that's it, nothing more. The result is to potentially impose change on the way teams play football - the Saints and Colts as good examples.

On one hand, I would say this is a great example of the law of unintended consequences. On the other hand, I'd say it's easy enough to predict that it shouldn't have (and maybe hasn't) caught the NFL by surprise.

I think the Saints and (gulp) Colts concerns are valid. I'd like to think they'll make some modifications, but we'll see.

JB
08-28-2010, 12:28 PM
Well, ignoring whether it's a good rule or a bad rule, the 5 yard rule was put in with the intent to change the game - because the decision had been made that there was something about it that could be improved. Instant replay didn't change the way teams played the game - it's intent was to allow the rules to be more accurately enforced (or not enforced as the case may be).

The intent of the change we're talking about here is to protect the Umpire from physical harm - that's it, nothing more. The result is to potentially impose change on the way teams play football - the Saints and Colts as good examples.

On one hand, I would say this is a great example of the law of unintended consequences. On the other hand, I'd say it's easy enough to predict that it shouldn't have (and maybe hasn't) caught the NFL by surprise.

I think the Saints and (gulp) Colts concerns are valid. I'd like to think they'll make some modifications, but we'll see.


The point I was trying to make ( and failed) was that the players would adjust to this just like they have adjusted to all the other rule changes.

ChampionTexan
08-28-2010, 12:37 PM
The point I was trying to make ( and failed) was that the players would adjust to this just like they have adjusted to all the other rule changes.

I'm not arguing that they'd adjust. The point I was trying to make (and also failing) was that with the 5 yard rule, and instant replay, the aforementioned adjustments were the intent of the rule change, and resulted in exactly what the NFL was going for when they made the change. The results of this rule change are completely unrelated to why the change was made in the first place.

Speedy
08-28-2010, 12:53 PM
Well, ignoring whether it's a good rule or a bad rule, the 5 yard rule was put in with the intent to change the game - because the decision had been made that there was something about it that could be improved. Instant replay didn't change the way teams played the game - it's intent was to allow the rules to be more accurately enforced (or not enforced as the case may be).

The intent of the change we're talking about here is to protect the Umpire from physical harm - that's it, nothing more. The result is to potentially impose change on the way teams play football - the Saints and Colts as good examples.

On one hand, I would say this is a great example of the law of unintended consequences. On the other hand, I'd say it's easy enough to predict that it shouldn't have (and maybe hasn't) caught the NFL by surprise.

I think the Saints and (gulp) Colts concerns are valid. I'd like to think they'll make some modifications, but we'll see.

Rules that change the way the game is played is one thing, rules that change the playing of that game is another. If you institute a 5 yard rule for the players - fine, the players will adjust. Just like the hand check rule in the NBA. But when you put in a rule where you can't even play the game because some slow-footed, lard-ass umpire can't get in his spot in time, that's a problem.

They made base coaches wear helmets in MLB. Put a freaking helmet and pads on the umpire.

cuppacoffee
08-28-2010, 01:07 PM
5 yards for contact with a receiver.

OK

This is after a receiver is or is not jammed at the line of scrimmage he cannot be contacted after he is five yards downfield from the line of scrimmage?

I think I got it. I was confused by the old 'halo' rule and knew it was no longer in force.

I suppose the players will adjust to the new rule, but it seems the officials are now being injected into the game itself.

Whether the official is 'back in place' is objective from play to play.

There will eventually be replays to see if in fact the official was or wasn't in place when the flag is thrown.


:coffee:

cuppacoffee
08-28-2010, 01:12 PM
Rules that change the way the game is played is one thing, rules that change the playing of that game is another. If you institute a 5 yard rule for the players - fine, the players will adjust. Just like the hand check rule in the NBA. But when you put in a rule where you can't even play the game because some slow-footed, lard-ass umpire can't get in his spot in time, that's a problem.

They made base coaches wear helmets in MLB. Put a freaking helmet and pads on the umpire.


Or put each one of the on the sideline with their own tv monitor and let overhead cameras do the work. Seem like that is what it's coming to anyway.

j/k


:coffee:

OzzO
08-28-2010, 01:19 PM
Meh - keeps the ump from getting (more likely) injured than his previous spot and doesn't allow for the ump to set a pick or get bonked in the head with a footballl when he doesn't duck fast enough.

I'm fine with the revision and I'm sure there will be some adjustment time involved.

El Tejano
08-29-2010, 07:26 PM
Also the refs are starting to see alot more of Indy's line holding. On top of Manning not pulling his crap, they were getting flagged for holding alot.

TexanSam
08-30-2010, 02:46 PM
Peter King writes about it in his MMQB column today. Also includes a few tweets from Eric Winston about the rule.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/08/29/mmqb/3.html

"Every ump I have talked to this offseason hates the new rule where they have them. All of them felt the way fb players do. Injuries are part''

"Of the position they ref at. One also told me that the comp comm changed the rule without consulting one ump. (Although I'm sure Perrera''

"Had a say) loved what Tirico said. Put a helmet on them if they are concerned. Don't change the way the game is played. Altho if it pisses''

"Manning off, I could learn to deal with it. LOL''

-- @ericwinston, Texans tackle Eric Winston, on the rule moving the umpires from a linebacker's position to about 14 yards behind the offense to avoid umps getting beat around like pinballs.

Dutchrudder
08-30-2010, 02:52 PM
I don't understand how this will work when a team is driving with >2 minutes on the clock and they want to spike the ball. It has to take the ump at least 7 seconds to place the ball and then get to his spot. Maybe they have an exception for the penalty in that case.

JB
08-30-2010, 03:47 PM
I don't understand how this will work when a team is driving with >2 minutes on the clock and they want to spike the ball. It has to take the ump at least 7 seconds to place the ball and then get to his spot. Maybe they have an exception for the penalty in that case.

Under 2 mins. and the umps go back to the old positioning.

edo783
08-30-2010, 09:39 PM
Now if they go back to the way it was, they are really exposed to a lawsuit if one gets hurt. Not sure how the 2 min. thing will workout if one gets hurt then.

Yankee_In_TX
08-30-2010, 10:16 PM
I don't get it. How is this messing with the game any more than instant replay or the 5 yd rule?

I hated the 5 yard rule, too. Fan of replay, though.

JB
08-30-2010, 10:21 PM
I hated the 5 yard rule, too. Fan of replay, though.

Yep! IMHO, this gives a little something back to the defense. The Colts and Pats both used the ump as a pick way too often. The defense no longer has that obstacle to manuever.

Blake
08-31-2010, 08:17 AM
From what I understand the ump rule is trying to keep them safe. Other than teams wanting to rush the defense, is this really a big deal?

Or maybe we should tell those 40 year old referees to man up and deal with concussions.

Double Barrel
08-31-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm in favor of anything that makes Manning whine like a little biatch. :D

I agree with the above that players will adapt. All of this stuff has been said before for the last several decades. Today's football is a giant evolution from 1950's football. Things change, players adapt.

Cjeremy635
08-31-2010, 11:11 AM
Yep! IMHO, this gives a little something back to the defense. The Colts and Pats both used the ump as a pick way too often. The defense no longer has that obstacle to manuever.

That's how I see it. I'm in favor of the rule. I'm not understanding the argument from some of you who are saying that the refs shouldn't interfere with the game (as in this causes them to interfere more than standing in the middle of the players). To me, this makes them interfere less....which is the goal. When they are in the middle of the shit and in people's way, how is that not interfering? The player's don't have the right to knock them out of the way to get to the pass over the middle when they are being set up for a pick. This is perfect IMHO. Manning is going to whine because he used the refs as an advantage. He may make it out like he's whining about the speed of the game, but we all know why he's really sobbing.

JB
08-31-2010, 01:06 PM
Manning's whining getting results already...From NFLinfo.

For Week 4 of preseason, umpire on defensive side of ball at 2:00 of 2nd Q & 5:00 of 4th Q. Was previously 2:00 of each.

Link (https://twitter.com/NFLfootballinfo)

Yankee_In_TX
08-31-2010, 01:16 PM
Manning's whining getting results already...From NFLinfo.



Link (https://twitter.com/NFLfootballinfo)

That goes AGAINST the safety argument - if this is purely a safety issue WTF would you put them back into harm's way inside 2 (now 5) minutes?

However, I do see the light of the argument that using ump's as an extra defender interferred as well. Hmmm....

Indy Skinnz
08-31-2010, 02:43 PM
Also the refs are starting to see alot more of Indy's line holding. On top of Manning not pulling his crap, they were getting flagged for holding alot.

That is funny because we Colts fan think Freeney gets the most holds that are not called in the league. Point of view is a wonderful thing.

Indy Skinnz
08-31-2010, 02:46 PM
That goes AGAINST the safety argument - if this is purely a safety issue WTF would you put them back into harm's way inside 2 (now 5) minutes?

However, I do see the light of the argument that using ump's as an extra defender interferred as well. Hmmm....

Completely agree. Said the same thing in posts over on Colts' sites. It is a total contradiction. Is the ref safety not important in the final minutes of each half? If umpire safety is the justification for making the change, then the rule should be in place for the entire game. Either that or throw it out completely.

Indy Skinnz
08-31-2010, 02:48 PM
Yep! IMHO, this gives a little something back to the defense. The Colts and Pats both used the ump as a pick way too often. The defense no longer has that obstacle to manuever.

And Houston doesn't? Every team has plays in their playbook that calls for crossing receivers to use the ump as a pick. It is not just a Colts or Pats issue.

JB
08-31-2010, 02:51 PM
And Houston doesn't? Every team has plays in their playbook that calls for crossing receivers to use the ump as a pick. It is not just a Colts or Pats issue.

It don't bother me when we do it! :D

Indy Skinnz
08-31-2010, 03:05 PM
It don't bother me when we do it! :D

Fair enough.

BTW - you might have my favorite avatar ever.

JB
08-31-2010, 03:08 PM
Fair enough.

BTW - you might have my favorite avatar ever.

A great gift from the great people on this board..