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dalemurphy
08-24-2010, 08:37 AM
I'm hopeful that, after the horrid performance by Wade Smith and another good (but short) performance by my new, favorite Texan (Shelley Smith) that we may see Shelley get some reps against the 1st unit on Saturday.... Here's the article:



This is my second article in a week praising Shelley Smith’s performance. So, I should preface this one by stating that I am not a Colorado State graduate. I watched Shelley Smith at training camp and came away unimpressed. So, I was as surprised as anyone to witness his performance in Arizona. It was flawless. Kubiak made special mention of Smith’s performance in the press conference after the Arizona game when asked an unrelated question. So, clearly the coaching staff took note. So, I was excited to see Shelley Smith play against New Orleans’ second unit this week. Unfortunately, because of a lack offensive snaps due to a pitiful defensive performance, Smith did not enter the game until the final drive. I am hopeful that Shelley Smith will get a genuine look in the game versus Dallas, but I am concerned that (for reasons I am not privy to) the Texan coaching staff has determined that he is not a consideration for an active day roster job, either as starting LG or as the G/C backup… He did, after all, start at center for three years at CSU.

Below is a play from the end of the game at New Orleans. Shelley Smith is LG, #71. He only played about 10 snaps but once again never got beat and always looked good. What I love about this video are a few things: He takes care of his primary job. He has his head on a swivel, looking for blitzes and stunts. He realizes he can help elsewhere. He is determined to hit somebody. The physicality and agressiveness he displays as he takes out the RDE. Below the Shelley Smith highlight are two lowlights of Wade Smith from Saturday. His play was very poor, in my opinion. Finally, there is a link below to check out highlights of Shelley Smith from the Arizona game, if you are so inclined:

Here's the link to the video (http://www.texansbullblog.com/shelley-smith-solution-texan-lg-woes/news/)

Honoring Earl 34
08-24-2010, 08:40 AM
Nickname him Hambone and Im in .

IDEXAN
08-24-2010, 08:57 AM
The Saints game Saturday drives home that point, that cliche about football games being won at the LOS. When a team has a guard tandem so good, like the Saints, that they can make Reggie Bush look like Christian "The Nigerian Nightmare" Okoye running up the middle, well that's says it all.
And this has not got anything to do with Ben Tate being injured, but I would have hoped the Texans had used their second round puick on an interior OLineman given the concerns at that position, but I know the Wade Smith FA pickup precluded that option in the 2010 Draft.
Regarding the idea of inserting the CSU rookie at LG, not gonna happen. It's now too late in the preseason for Kubiak to do anything that bold, or risky.
If we have injuries in that area, we may see him but otherwise I doubt it.

rmartin65
08-24-2010, 09:03 AM
I liked the pick when it happened, became slightly discouraged during training camp when he was not mentioned, and am now back to being excited. Ah, the joys of off-season!

dalemurphy
08-24-2010, 09:05 AM
The Saints game Saturday drives home that point, that cliche about football games being won at the LOS. When a team has a guard tandem so good, like the Saints, that they can make Reggie Bush look like Christian "The Nigerian Nightmare" Okoye running up the middle, well that's says it all.
And this has not got anything to do with Ben Tate being injured, but I would have hoped the Texans had used their second round puick on an interior OLineman given the concerns at that position, but I know the Wade Smith FA pickup precluded that option in the 2010 Draft.
Regarding the idea of inserting the CSU rookie at LG, not gonna happen. It's now too late in the preseason for Kubiak to do anything that bold, or risky.
If we have injuries in that area, we may see him but otherwise I doubt it.

I think you are right. However, I would like to see him given enough reps that he could solidify himself on the roster. I would hate for them to expose this guy to waivers. It is frustrating, though, that there was supposed to be an open competition for a spot and this guy has been great in games, yet he seems locked out of the competition. Perhaps, though, Kubiak simply doesn't want to introduce inexperience into the offense unless it is neccessary. I think the gameday evidence/performance should override such thinking, though. It doesn't appear that Wade Smith's experience is providing much for them right now.

badboy
08-24-2010, 09:09 AM
He may be a "game day"player. Some guys just crank it up for a game. 10 plays is not enough to get time with the ones IMO but he needs to just keep plugging because I can see an opportunity for him to get much more time on field as season progresses. I am underwhelmed by our Oline.

dalemurphy
08-24-2010, 09:12 AM
He may be a "game day"player. Some guys just crank it up for a game. 10 plays is not enough to get time with the ones IMO but he needs to just keep plugging because I can see an opportunity for him to get much more time on field as season progresses. I am underwhelmed by our Oline.

On the other hand, it pretty cool that nobody is even discussing the OTs! They've been good and are reliable. Nice not to have that problem anymore, isn't it?

Rey
08-24-2010, 09:37 AM
Didn't Duane Brown give up that sack?

steelbtexan
08-24-2010, 09:41 AM
He may be a "game day"player. Some guys just crank it up for a game. 10 plays is not enough to get time with the ones IMO but he needs to just keep plugging because I can see an opportunity for him to get much more time on field as season progresses. I am underwhelmed by our Oline.

This

I was also underwhemed by both of the interior OL/DL.

Not that this should be suprising. Since these 2 areas were failed to be addressed this offseason.

If there has been one failing in the Smithiak regime it has been the failure to invest in the interior OL/DL. Games are won in the trenches and the Texans are severely lacking in talent in these 2 positions. IMHO

I dont see the playoffs in the Texans future until these problems are fixed.

eriadoc
08-24-2010, 09:48 AM
The 3rd and 4th round picks of this draft were terrible, IMO. That's not a knock on the players, but rather a knock on the staff for choosing irresponsibly, IMO. The team needed interior line, both defensively and offensively. They drafted Earl Mitchell, but let's be honest - he isn't the type of DT the Texans need. And in the 4th round, they chose yet another TE and a LB. Sharpton is playing very well, and Graham has shown he can contribute as well. But somewhere in there, even if you think Earl Mitchell is the answer at DT (which I don't), you could have taken a C/G.

dalemurphy
08-24-2010, 09:51 AM
This

I was also underwhemed by both of the interior OL/DL.

Not that this should be suprising. Since these 2 areas were failed to be addressed this offseason.

If there has been one failing in the Smithiak regime it has been the failure to invest in the interior OL/DL. Games are won in the trenches and the Texans are severely lacking in talent in these 2 positions. IMHO

I dont see the playoffs in the Texans future until these problems are fixed.

Steel,

I agree that these two areas are a weakness. However, I don't think they went unaddressed. Our biggest FA signing was Wade Smith and we also drafted Shelley Smith. On the DL, we drafted Earl Mitchell.

Now, at this point, I could argue that the Wade Smith signing doesn't look good, but I think the organization attempted to strengthen both positions.

Also, I think Caldwell has looked very good at RG. With Brisiel returning, I think this group should be able to play up to the 2008 standard. Which was average, at least. By the way, Indianapolis has had a nice run of seasons despite average interior Oline play and poor DT play.. So did Arizona and Phildelphia. Hope is not lost!

steelbtexan
08-24-2010, 09:54 AM
The answer to solving the LG problem is to trade next years no.1 pick for all pro LG Logan Mankins. He's 28 yrs old I believe and would help solidify the entire OL.

Of course you would have to sign him to a contract extention. So this isn't going to happen.

Rey
08-24-2010, 09:55 AM
This

I was also underwhemed by both of the interior OL/DL.

Not that this should be suprising. Since these 2 areas were failed to be addressed this offseason.

If there has been one failing in the Smithiak regime it has been the failure to invest in the interior OL/DL. Games are won in the trenches and the Texans are severely lacking in talent in these 2 positions. IMHO

I dont see the playoffs in the Texans future until these problems are fixed.

They've taken Amobi and Mitchell in the first and third rounds...They've taken Okam in the fifth (iirc).

They took Caldwell in the third and they took Studdard in the fifth and we took Shelley Smith this year.

The investments may not have had much return, but they have invested in both the D-line and O-line.

Can't address everything though...Maybe the TE picks have been redundant, but it's not like they have proven to be bad players either.

steelbtexan
08-24-2010, 09:58 AM
I hope you are right.

They did attempt to address the problem with Mitchell and Smith. It just appears as of now these Smithiak aquisitions =fail.

With that said it's still the preseason and I'm not going to jump off the proverbial ledge yet.

steelbtexan
08-24-2010, 10:00 AM
They've taken Amobi and Mitchell in the first and third rounds...They've taken Okam in the fifth (iirc).

They took Caldwell in the third and they took Studdard in the fifth and we took Shelley Smith this year.

The investments may not have had much return, but they have invested in both the D-line and O-line.

Can't address everything though...Maybe the TE picks have been redundant, but it's not like they have proven to be bad players either.

This is more of an example of the ineptness of the front office than anything. IMHO

IDEXAN
08-24-2010, 10:01 AM
On the other hand, it pretty cool that nobody is even discussing the OTs! They've been good and are reliable. Nice not to have that problem anymore, isn't it?
Sorry, but gonna throw out another old cliche: "you get what you pay for".
Our LT is a first-rounder and Winston was taken very high in the third round IIRC ? On the other hand our collection of guards/centers are FAs and late round picks, while the best interior lineman the Texans ever had (Chester Pitts) was a second-rounder.
While I could always see the importance of using high-picks on OTs, I've now changed my mind about interior olieneman and think their importance is also too much to wait around to see who's left every draft in the late-rounds.
Of course there's no guarantees getting high-value with high-picks, but the margin of error is greatly reduced.

Rey
08-24-2010, 10:02 AM
The 3rd and 4th round picks of this draft were terrible, IMO. That's not a knock on the players, but rather a knock on the staff for choosing irresponsibly, IMO. The team needed interior line, both defensively and offensively. They drafted Earl Mitchell, but let's be honest - he isn't the type of DT the Texans need. And in the 4th round, they chose yet another TE and a LB. Sharpton is playing very well, and Graham has shown he can contribute as well. But somewhere in there, even if you think Earl Mitchell is the answer at DT (which I don't), you could have taken a C/G.

Can you name someone specific?

I went back and looked at this past draft, and there really isn't much there...Also, you have to remember that the Texans want guys that fit their system...

Sure they could have taken one just to take one, but do those players immediately come in and make us better?

I don't know...

IDEXAN
08-24-2010, 10:04 AM
Can you name someone specific?

I went back and looked at this past draft, and there really isn't much there...Also, you have to remember that the Texans want guys that fit their system...

Sure they could have taken one just to take one, but do those players immediately come in and make us better?

I don't know...
Zane Beadles taken 45 overall by the Broncos - a natural ZBS LG.

Rey
08-24-2010, 10:11 AM
Zane Beadles taken 45 overall by the Broncos - a natural ZBS LG.

The Texans had the 58th pick in the 2nd round.

Are you saying they should have traded up to get him or taken him in the first round?

TimeKiller
08-24-2010, 10:29 AM
Nice videos. They illustrate him very well, a highlight reel of sorts for an OL, showing every skill you could possibly want to see. Exploding off the line into the defenses 2nd level to knock out a LB, absorbs a DT/keeps him blocked AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE AND NOT 3 YARDS INTO THE BACKFIELD...good blocking technique, good strength, good quickness in run blocking. The next post showed off his pass pro, again absorbing the initial DT punch without losing a single step to him, passes him off the the C, keeps his head up to see a DE getting the better of his T and promptly lays the wood on him, keeping his QB upright and able to throw.

I seriously wonder what it will take to remove Studdard. God writing a message with clouds and floating them over the stadium?

Dutchrudder
08-24-2010, 12:38 PM
The Texans had the 58th pick in the 2nd round.

Are you saying they should have traded up to get him or taken him in the first round?

They originally had the 51st pick, 19th in the second round. Traded back to 62 and picked up a 3rd, then traded up to 58th and gave up a 5th.

dalemurphy
08-24-2010, 12:38 PM
I seriously wonder what it will take to remove Studdard. God writing a message with clouds and floating them over the stadium?

TK, can you make that happen?

dalemurphy
08-24-2010, 12:41 PM
Sorry, but gonna throw out another old cliche: "you get what you pay for".
Our LT is a first-rounder and Winston was taken very high in the third round IIRC ? On the other hand our collection of guards/centers are FAs and late round picks, while the best interior lineman the Texans ever had (Chester Pitts) was a second-rounder.
While I could always see the importance of using high-picks on OTs, I've now changed my mind about interior olieneman and think their importance is also too much to wait around to see who's left every draft in the late-rounds.
Of course there's no guarantees getting high-value with high-picks, but the margin of error is greatly reduced.


They paid pretty good money in a depressed market for Wade Smith. My fear is that they didn't get what they paid for. Also, let's not forget that they spent a 3rd on Caldwell last year... and, according to my eyes, he is going to be pretty good.

considering our drafts in rounds 1-2 the past three seasons, I'm not going to be too critical about those early round decisions: Duane Brown, Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin, Kareem Jackson, Ben Tate... I don't have an argument with any of those right now... Not unless a story surfaces that Ben Tate had chronic ankle injuries in college.

awtysst
08-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Sorry, but gonna throw out another old cliche: "you get what you pay for".
Our LT is a first-rounder and Winston was taken very high in the third round IIRC ? On the other hand our collection of guards/centers are FAs and late round picks, while the best interior lineman the Texans ever had (Chester Pitts) was a second-rounder.
While I could always see the importance of using high-picks on OTs, I've now changed my mind about interior olieneman and think their importance is also too much to wait around to see who's left every draft in the late-rounds.
Of course there's no guarantees getting high-value with high-picks, but the margin of error is greatly reduced.

Caldwell was a third rounder.

TimeKiller
08-24-2010, 03:03 PM
TK, can you make that happen?

Dude if I could do it you wouldn't have to ask. They would be the darkest, stormy-est, Kasey-Studdard-Sucks-est clouds you ever did see.

Wolf6151
08-24-2010, 07:59 PM
It is way past time for the Texans to put some importance on the interior O-line, this needs to be addressed with quality and quantity in FA and the draft next year, should have been done 2 yrs. ago. I can't believe that we'll be starting Studdard, W. Smith, or S. Smith in a few weeks. Studdard stinks, W. Smith was a journeyman backup that the Texans are way over paying, and S. Smith is too young and inexperienced to be much good against 1st teamers though I wish the Texans would give him a chance to succeed or fail because Studdard and W. Smith aren't getting the job done. I was against the S. Smith pick when it happened but now he's showing some promise, maybe he'll develop but it can't come soon enough. Let's hope that Schaub doesn't have to pay for Kubiaks arrogance with regard to the O-line.

gary
08-24-2010, 08:13 PM
Makins is not coming here too high price tag on him.

drs23
08-24-2010, 08:14 PM
It is way past time for the Texans to put some importance on the interior O-line, this needs to be addressed with quality and quantity in FA and the draft next year, should have been done 2 yrs. ago. I can't believe that we'll be starting Studdard, W. Smith, or S. Smith in a few weeks. Studdard stinks, W. Smith was a journeyman backup that the Texans are way over paying, and S. Smith is too young and inexperienced to be much good against 1st teamers though I wish the Texans would give him a chance to succeed or fail because Studdard and W. Smith aren't getting the job done. I was against the S. Smith pick when it happened but now he's showing some promise, maybe he'll develop but it can't come soon enough. Let's hope that Schaub doesn't have to pay for Kubiaks arrogance with regard to the O-line.

It's a given that the O-line is lacking. But to those that say it wasn't addressed...what was there in terms of help RIGHT NOW coming out of the draft that we had a shot at? I tried to follow the draft for the 1st time and IIRC the good guys were gone. There were reaches. The Wade Smith signing was lauded here at the time. Now not so much?

What's a mother to do?

GNTLEWOLF
08-24-2010, 08:26 PM
It is way past time for the Texans to put some importance on the interior O-line, this needs to be addressed with quality and quantity in FA and the draft next year, should have been done 2 yrs. ago. I can't believe that we'll be starting Studdard, W. Smith, or S. Smith in a few weeks. Studdard stinks, W. Smith was a journeyman backup that the Texans are way over paying, and S. Smith is too young and inexperienced to be much good against 1st teamers though I wish the Texans would give him a chance to succeed or fail because Studdard and W. Smith aren't getting the job done. I was against the S. Smith pick when it happened but now he's showing some promise, maybe he'll develop but it can't come soon enough. Let's hope that Schaub doesn't have to pay for Kubiaks arrogance with regard to the O-line.

Should have been done at the beginnings of the franchise. With the O-line you make sure you get it right or keep working until you do. The O-line is the foundation of any franchise. I hope we get it right someday.

gary
08-24-2010, 08:28 PM
Too bad Mike has that foot problem lingering because he is solid IMO.

The Pencil Neck
08-24-2010, 08:35 PM
It's a given that the O-line is lacking. But to those that say it wasn't addressed...what was there in terms of help RIGHT NOW coming out of the draft that we had a shot at? I tried to follow the draft for the 1st time and IIRC the good guys were gone. There were reaches. The Wade Smith signing was lauded here at the time. Now not so much?

What's a mother to do?

I don't think Wade Smith was actually "lauded" here. There were a lot of people who saw him as the second coming of Jordan Black.

Personally, I had high hopes on:

1. Shelley Smith turning into something good. (I had wanted to draft 1-2 interior linemen and I was hoping for a C, but what the heck.)
2. Brisiel taking the LG spot.
3. Chester Pitts making it back.

I'm still holding out for #1 and #2.

dalemurphy
08-24-2010, 09:05 PM
I don't think Wade Smith was actually "lauded" here. There were a lot of people who saw him as the second coming of Jordan Black.

Personally, I had high hopes on:

1. Shelley Smith turning into something good. (I had wanted to draft 1-2 interior linemen and I was hoping for a C, but what the heck.)
2. Brisiel taking the LG spot.
3. Chester Pitts making it back.

I'm still holding out for #1 and #2.

Pencil, according to my eye, you are right on top of it. I just finished re-watching and grading out the interior o-line from the N.O. game and I thought Brisiel looked pretty good (especially considering his long layoff)... and, of course, Shelley Smith was excellent, though he didn't enter the game until the final 4 minutes of the 4th quarter (not a good sign):

Here's the complete article grading out six interior linemen for those interested:

Texans Bull Blog (http://www.texansbullblog.com/film-study-interior-0line-grades-orleans/featured-articles/)

Rey
08-24-2010, 09:24 PM
They originally had the 51st pick, 19th in the second round. Traded back to 62 and picked up a 3rd, then traded up to 58th and gave up a 5th.

ok....????

gary
08-24-2010, 09:30 PM
I hope both Mike and Shelley do well thus make the team.

Wolf6151
08-24-2010, 09:36 PM
Should have been done at the beginnings of the franchise. With the O-line you make sure you get it right or keep working until you do. The O-line is the foundation of any franchise. I hope we get it right someday.


Agreed the O-line should have been a priority 8 yrs. ago but for unknown reasons it wasn't and hasn't been yet. The O-line is the foundation of the offense and if we had a dominant O-line like the Jets have we'd have a scary good offense and probably would have been in the playoffs by now. Hopefully Brisiel is healthy enough to be the starter at LG.

b0ng
08-24-2010, 09:54 PM
I hope both Mike and Shelley do well thus make the team.

I think they'll both make the team, now I really don't think Smith (Draft pick Smith) has a shot at cracking the starting roster, but Briesel could certainly find himself in the LG spot. As good as a lot of people are making Smith out to be, I just don't know if the powers that be are going to just insert him into the starting line-up if he's not making huge impressions during the practice sessions as well as the preseason games.

If I had to hazard a guess, it'd be that Studdard/Briesel will be a starter with the one not starting being the immediate back-up. Wade Smith did not look that good and I thought he was kind of slow and soft.

hookinreds
08-24-2010, 11:34 PM
I don't think Wade Smith was actually "lauded" here. There were a lot of people who saw him as the second coming of Jordan Black.

Personally, I had high hopes on:

1. Shelley Smith turning into something good. (I had wanted to draft 1-2 interior linemen and I was hoping for a C, but what the heck.)
2. Brisiel taking the LG spot.
3. Chester Pitts making it back.

I'm still holding out for #1 and #2.

"Seahawks activated OG Chester Pitts from the physically unable to perform list.

Pitts, who is coming back from microfracture surgery, is unlikely to play in Saturday's preseason game, but he could be ready for Week 1 if all goes well. The Seahawks could use the depth." - Rotoworld

C Madd
08-24-2010, 11:51 PM
I seriously wonder what it will take to remove Studdard. God writing a message with clouds and floating them over the stadium?

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q218/corymaddox/ReliantStadium_1.jpg

God is probably a better sky writer than me.

TimeKiller
08-25-2010, 07:38 AM
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q218/corymaddox/ReliantStadium_1.jpg

God is probably a better sky writer than me.
HAHAHA!!!!!!!! awesome! God may have better penmanship but the point is no less accurate! Studdard suuuuuuuucks!!

Wolf6151
08-25-2010, 07:38 AM
C Madd, excellent work but that takes for granted that the roof is open and that Kubiak can read, both are doubtful.

SAMURAITEXAN
08-25-2010, 08:11 AM
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q218/corymaddox/ReliantStadium_1.jpg

God is probably a better sky writer than me.

:spit: Nice work!!!

ChampionTexan
08-25-2010, 08:16 AM
C Madd, excellent work but that takes for granted that the roof is open and that Kubiak can read, both are doubtful.

Are you implying that he is only carrying the gi-normous Denny's menu For show?

badboy
08-25-2010, 08:25 AM
The 3rd and 4th round picks of this draft were terrible, IMO. That's not a knock on the players, but rather a knock on the staff for choosing irresponsibly, IMO. The team needed interior line, both defensively and offensively. They drafted Earl Mitchell, but let's be honest - he isn't the type of DT the Texans need. And in the 4th round, they chose yet another TE and a LB. Sharpton is playing very well, and Graham has shown he can contribute as well. But somewhere in there, even if you think Earl Mitchell is the answer at DT (which I don't), you could have taken a C/G.Not to defend Smithiak and I do agree with some of your comments but what center was available in 3rd that would have beaten out Chris Myers? Gary thinks the guy handles the offensive line calls very well. Most fans point to a few plays showing him getting blown up but over all that is not the case. I watched him and Chris White specifically and saw no play where the center drove his opponent back. White was worthless and Myers did just enough to get by. On my 2011 draft mock, I select a center high so I agree the spot needs help but your post is about the last off season. To continue, Wade Smith has done nothing to raise my pulse & may end up a back up. Does that mean that he was over rated or the others at that position were under rated?

Regardless of how you evaluate the DTs, the running game was shut down after game 3. Barring a trade that sent our entire draft for Suh, what else could have been done?

steelbtexan
08-25-2010, 08:32 AM
Makins is not coming here too high price tag on him.

You mean a 1st rd draft pick is too much to give up?

Or the 8 mil that Mankins is asking for?

J.Evans set the bar for an all pro OG at 8 mil. Mankins is worth the 8 mil. IMHO

Mankins is as good or better than Evans. IMHO He would help solve the short yardage problems everybody has been clamoring about.

Too get the best players you have to pay top $$$$. In this uncapped yr now would be the time to front load a contract for Mankins and solidify there OL for the next 8-10 yrs.

Bottom line is if you want to be great you have to pay to be great. That's why this trade isn't going to happen.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 09:09 AM
You mean a 1st rd draft pick is too much to give up?

Or the 8 mil that Mankins is asking for?

J.Evans set the bar for an all pro OG at 8 mil. Mankins is worth the 8 mil. IMHO

Mankins is as good or better than Evans. IMHO He would help solve the short yardage problems everybody has been clamoring about.

Too get the best players you have to pay top $$$$. In this uncapped yr now would be the time to front load a contract for Mankins and solidify there OL for the next 8-10 yrs.

Bottom line is if you want to be great you have to pay to be great. That's why this trade isn't going to happen.


So, when all the other organizations in the NFL also don't deal for Mankins, does that suggest to you that they are all losers if they don't have very good OL play: Indianapolis, Dallas (bad at tackle, Kosier injuried), Philadelphia, Green Bay (gave up 50 sacks? last season), Minnesota (aging and struggling interior), SD (horrible line play last season and McNeil is sitting out), Tennessee, ...

He would help all those teams. What is your criticism of them?

SteveDeberg
08-25-2010, 09:47 AM
I don't think Wade Smith was actually "lauded" here. There were a lot of people who saw him as the second coming of Jordan Black.

Personally, I had high hopes on:

1. Shelley Smith turning into something good. (I had wanted to draft 1-2 interior linemen and I was hoping for a C, but what the heck.)
2. Brisiel taking the LG spot.
3. Chester Pitts making it back.

I'm still holding out for #1 and #2.

I follow the Chiefs (as painful as that has been, your welcome for Bernard Pollard). Wade Smith may be a case of looking good on a very trashy o-line. The ;ast 2 years he was on the bench until mid season and then replaced guys that are no longer even in the league (Mike Goff, Adrian Jones whom Smthiak also signed briefly). He does well as a pulling guard and can get out front, he sucks though when he gets bull rushed. He is a decent back up O-lineman but starter may be over his head, unless he waits until mid season as usual.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 09:57 AM
I follow the Chiefs (as painful as that has been, your welcome for Bernard Pollard). Wade Smith may be a case of looking good on a very trashy o-line. The ;ast 2 years he was on the bench until mid season and then replaced guys that are no longer even in the league (Mike Goff, Adrian Jones whom Smthiak also signed briefly). He does well as a pulling guard and can get out front, he sucks though when he gets bull rushed. He is a decent back up O-lineman but starter may be over his head, unless he waits until mid season as usual.

That's what I've seen in the first two preseason games.

SteveDeberg
08-25-2010, 10:14 AM
We want tough, smart, physical football players with a passion for the game... That's our motto

Still catching up with the Texans...not aware who said this I assume Kubiak or Smith, sounds eerily similar to Scott Pioli's "We want to get faster, stronger, smarter players...the right 53". Since then he drafted a db from Ohio St who was expelled for academics instead of drafting Austin Collie(smarter), played a rb for half a season with a 2.7 ypc average (faster) over a UT grad who averaged 6 yds per carry last 8 weeks (Wade Smith started last 9 replacing Mike Goff, thats how bad its been in KC) smarter and faster, and last of all a backup NT who was cut by Cleveland for punching Brady Quinn in the face in practice "right 53".

I noticed Bernard Pollard di not look as sharp. I liked Arian Foster and was high on him in the 09 draft up until the point he fumbled Saturday, he reminds me of a young Larry Johnson (on the field).

Wolf6151
08-25-2010, 10:21 AM
I follow the Chiefs (as painful as that has been, your welcome for Bernard Pollard). Wade Smith may be a case of looking good on a very trashy o-line. The ;ast 2 years he was on the bench until mid season and then replaced guys that are no longer even in the league (Mike Goff, Adrian Jones whom Smthiak also signed briefly). He does well as a pulling guard and can get out front, he sucks though when he gets bull rushed. He is a decent back up O-lineman but starter may be over his head, unless he waits until mid season as usual.


I think part of the problem is that Kubiak keeps saying "we need guys who can get to the second level quickly". Well if your light weight and fast to the second level then your probably unable to deal with the first level. If you can't deal with the DT/NT then who cares how fast you get to the second level. You might look real good blocking that Safety downfield but the DT who bull rushed you is killing your QB. The problem begins and ends with Kubiak and IMO his application of the ZBS.

Dutchrudder
08-25-2010, 10:26 AM
ok....????

Meant to reply to IDtexan. We never had a shot at getting Zane Beadles, not to mention our coaches apparently were not looking at anyone other than Gerhart and Tate.

SteveDeberg
08-25-2010, 10:30 AM
I think part of the problem is that Kubiak keeps saying "we need guys who can get to the second level quickly". Well if your light weight and fast to the second level then your probably unable to deal with the first level. If you can't deal with the DT/NT then who cares how fast you get to the second level. You might look real good blocking that Safety downfield but the DT who bull rushed you is killing your QB. The problem begins and ends with Kubiak and IMO his application of the ZBS.

That would probably explain Wade Smith in KC. He had a very mobile qb in 08' (Tyler Thigpen) who was always on the move and then last year with Jamaal Charles speed NT/DT did not have time to make penetration before he was gone and most defenders held their ground with Charles vs getting up field and out of position with him due to his speed.

steelbtexan
08-25-2010, 10:34 AM
So, when all the other organizations in the NFL also don't deal for Mankins, does that suggest to you that they are all losers if they don't have very good OL play: Indianapolis, Dallas (bad at tackle, Kosier injuried), Philadelphia, Green Bay (gave up 50 sacks? last season), Minnesota (aging and struggling interior), SD (horrible line play last season and McNeil is sitting out), Tennessee, ...

He would help all those teams. What is your criticism of them?

Dont care about the other organizations, just want the Texans to pick up a young all pro OG to solify the OL for the next 8-10 yrs.

I would do the deal because it's not my $$$$. I want the Texans to do something to upgrade the interior OL and Mankins is one of, if not the best interior OL in the NFL. This is all about whether the Texans are willing to pay the price to substancially upgrade their OL for the next 8-10 yrs.

Kinda like the Oilers did when they drafted Campbell and traded for all pro OT Leon Gray and gave Gray the contract he was looking for.

Those 2 moves made the Oilers a SB contender for 5-7 yrs. Because the Oilers/Bud was willing to pay the $$$. I believe this would also happen if the Texans made this move.

If the Texans want to make the playoffs and have an elite OL they need to make this move. It's sad this wont happen for the fans. Because the fans deserve the best IMHO.

Are you saying you ar nor for adding an all pro OG to the interior OL? If you are for making this trade what would you consider a fair deal? You should check out how good Mankins played last yr. He was dominate.

JB
08-25-2010, 10:37 AM
Dont care about the other organizations, just want the Texans to pick up a young all pro OG to solify the OL for the next 8-10 yrs.

I would do the deal because it's not my $$$$. I want the Texans to do something to upgrade the interior OL and Mankins is one of, if not the best interior OL in the NFL. This is all about whether the Texans are willing to pay the price to substancially upgrade their OL for the next 8-10 yrs.

Kinda like the Oilers did when they drafted Campbell and traded for all pro OT Leon Gray and gave Gray the contract he was looking for.

Those 2 moves made the Oilers a SB contender for 5-7 yrs. Because the Oilers/Bud was willing to pay the $$$. I believe this would also happen if the Texans made this move.

If the Texans want to make the playoffs and have an elite OL they need to make this move. It's sad this wont happen for the fans. Because the fans deserve the best IMHO.

What makes you think that NE would be willing to trade him?

steelbtexan
08-25-2010, 10:42 AM
What makes you think that NE would be willing to trade him?

Nothing, But if I were Smithiak I would have to give the Pats a call and see what it would take to do a deal.

Dutchrudder
08-25-2010, 10:44 AM
What makes you think that NE would be willing to trade him?

They took care of Wilfork this season, they are trying to re-sign Brady and they Moss's contract is done after this year. They have a lot of people to sign, but I doubt they would give Mankins away for anything less than a 1st and a 3rd pick.

Sadly, I don't think Smith will even bother testing the waters with the NE GM because Mankins isn't coming from a ZBS.

JB
08-25-2010, 10:45 AM
Nothing, But if I were Smithiak I would have to give the Pats a call and see what it would take to do a deal.

And he may do that, and may already have done that. We will never know unless a deal goes through. Even if they tell him no, you will call McNair a cheapskate for not getting a deal done.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 10:47 AM
Nothing, But if I were Smithiak I would have to give the Pats a call and see what it would take to do a deal.

Perhaps they have. If there are zero teams in the NFL that will make the deal with NE, doesn't that indicate that Mankins and/or NE is asking too much?

You are condemning the Texans for not attempting a deal even though you have no idea whether they acquired about it or not. If he is still property of NE, there is probably good reason for that.

SteveDeberg
08-25-2010, 10:55 AM
The Patriots are playing smart with Mankins. Why trade him now when an injury on another team drives up his trade value?

steelbtexan
08-25-2010, 11:01 AM
I dont know if they made the call or not. I'm not saying McNair's cheap in this instance. I'm just just saying Mankins (all pro) is worth a 1st and a 3rd. IMHO

I dont care what other organizations think. This has more to do with the looming lockout than anything IMHO

McNair is one of the leaders of the lockout group. Thanks Uncle BoB.

JB
08-25-2010, 11:03 AM
I dont know if they made the call or not. I'm not saying McNair's cheap in this instance. I'm just just saying Mankins (all pro) is worth a 1st and a 3rd. IMHO

I dont care what other organizations think. This has more to do with the looming lockout than anything IMHO

McNair is one of the leaders of the lockout group. Thanks Uncle BoB.

Nice shift of the subject. :lol:

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 11:07 AM
Bottom line is if you want to be great you have to pay to be great. That's why this trade isn't going to happen.

Sounds like you are blaming the Texan organization for not trading for Mankins. Yet, later you say that you are not. I'm confused. How do you know the trade isn't going to happen because N.E. isn't dealing him or is asking for an astronomical amount of compensation?

Wolf6151
08-25-2010, 11:08 AM
Taking this discussion in a little different direction, I know that the 2010 draft has been judged already but here's another assessment of it and the picks that would have been better with players that were available at the time. Most agree that our middle round picks were wasted.

3. Earl Mitchell- DT could have had Mike Johnson-OG, very highly rated.
4. Darryl Sharpton-LB could have had Bruce Campbell-OT, very highly rated OT. I know that he was questionable to some but we could have put him at OG.
4. Garrett Graham-TE
5. Sherrick McManis-CB could have had Mitch Petrus-OG or Marshall Newhouse-OG both highly rated OG's.

Now I'm not saying that our picks might not turn out to be good players of the future but if just one of these picks had been changed and a good quality OG had been selected then we probably wouldn't be in the position we are now of having to choose either Studdard, W. Smith, or Brisiel as a starter. I think Kubiak went into the 2010 draft with blinders on and was set on picking S. Smith in the 6th round regardless of the quality players ahead of him.


I agree that Mankins is great and would make a great addition to the team but he apparently is very tired of the Patriots penny pinching ways. I've read on one of the Patriots sites that the fans think he's being greedy and are ready to deal him. He's great but he'll also be very expensive and seems to be somewhat of a prima donna. Read here:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=406697&sid=d7b68764ac68f2c15e6cfbaaf5bdfda1

gary
08-25-2010, 11:15 AM
Bob likes building through the draft and all of us know this.

Wolf6151
08-25-2010, 11:22 AM
Bob likes building through the draft and all of us know this.

The problem with building through the draft is that there aren't enough elite players to fix all of a teams problems at one time and that by the time you fix one problem with a player that took several years to mature then a hole opens somewhere else on the team through FA, injury, or retirement. Also Bob likes building through the draft because it's much cheaper than FA's. FA are an expensive but necessary part of the puzzle.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 11:23 AM
Taking this discussion in a little different direction, I know that the 2010 draft has been judged already but here's another assessment of it and the picks that would have been better with players that were available at the time. Most agree that our middle round picks were wasted.

3. Earl Mitchell- DT could have had Mike Johnson-OG, very highly rated.
4. Darryl Sharpton-LB could have had Bruce Campbell-OT, very highly rated OT. I know that he was questionable to some but we could have put him at OG.
4. Garrett Graham-TE
5. Sherrick McManis-CB could have had Mitch Petrus-OG or Marshall Newhouse-OG both highly rated OG's.

Now I'm not saying that our picks might not turn out to be good players of the future but if just one of these picks had been changed and a good quality OG had been selected then we probably wouldn't be in the position we are now of having to choose either Studdard, W. Smith, or Brisiel as a starter. I think Kubiak went into the 2010 draft with blinders on and was set on picking S. Smith in the 6th round regardless of the quality players ahead of him.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=406697&sid=d7b68764ac68f2c15e6cfbaaf5bdfda1


That was genius! Shelley Smith looks fantastic. It isn't true, though, because Shelley Smith is being overlooked as a possible starter at LG despite dominating on the field this preseason. If Kubiak was that fixated on him in the draft, then he would be more aware of Smith's dominance in the preseason, to this point... Certainly, he would have put Smith into the game with more than 3:58 left in the 4th quarter last week.

Ole Miss Texan
08-25-2010, 11:25 AM
I have a feeling our 3rd, 4th, 5th rounders that some are whining about are going to turn out to be great for us.

Mitchell IS the type of DT we need/want.
Sharpton is a case of BPA - he looks like a stud. I like the pick.
Look at our TE situation - Graham has looked good and could end up being a L/T player on this team.
McMannis has come out strong and could be a huge contributer to this team.

Before we continue bashing these mid round players that many of us have only seen play in 2 preseason games.... let's not forget how many on here said Glover Quin was a sh*tty pick. Turns out he's our best CB right now.

Not that y'all really care what I think but I love the way Smith has navigated through the draft the last two years and the players we got. It's so easy to go back and cherry pick players after the fact, but I can honestly say I find it very hard to change our draft.

Would I have wanted a LG earlier? Sure! I was a fan of Mike Johnson... hell I wanted Michael Oher last year in the 1st! But if we address that, we're just pushing down other key positions. Look at our 2nd/3rd rounders the last two years. Pass Rushing DE - check! OG/C - check! RB - check! DT - check! Those were all NEED positions AND they were guys who fit what the coaches want to do AND they were arguably BPA! What more could we want?

HOU-TEX
08-25-2010, 11:33 AM
Geez, I always thought the back up QB was always a fan favorite. Now it's a 3rd or 4th string guard who dominated guys who'll likely be on the street in a couple weeks.

The dude might eventually work out, but now? Nah

Ole Miss Texan
08-25-2010, 11:40 AM
Geez, I always thought the back up QB was always a fan favorite. Now it's a 3rd or 4th string guard who dominated guys who'll likely be on the street in a couple weeks.

The dude might eventually work out, but now? Nah

Hell, at least we're not arguing about kickers.


:thinking: on second thought, let me go visit the Brown/Rackers thread...

infantrycak
08-25-2010, 11:41 AM
Agreed the O-line should have been a priority 8 yrs. ago but for unknown reasons it wasn't and hasn't been yet.

To the contrary it was their expressed priority hence using the first expansion draft pick on Boselli, attempting to get bookend tackles and using the 2nd round pick on Pitts. None of it worked out except Pitts but that was certainly their goal.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 11:45 AM
Geez, I always thought the back up QB was always a fan favorite. Now it's a 3rd or 4th string guard who dominated guys who'll likely be on the street in a couple weeks.

The dude might eventually work out, but now? Nah

Would you like to wager that he makes the roster?

I don't think Shelley Smith is a fan favorite. I just think he's a favorite of those of us who have been paying close attention to the interior line this preseason. Would you like to dispute that he has looked exceptional in the games so far?

Honoring Earl 34
08-25-2010, 12:04 PM
To the contrary it was their expressed priority hence using the first expansion draft pick on Boselli, attempting to get bookend tackles and using the 2nd round pick on Pitts. None of it worked out except Pitts but that was certainly their goal.

They also picked Ryan Young from the Jets in the expansion draft who got hurt .

This was supposed to be the Texans first Ol .

Boselli Pitts McKinney Weary Young

IDEXAN
08-25-2010, 12:22 PM
The Texans had the 58th pick in the 2nd round.

Are you saying they should have traded up to get him or taken him in the first round?
I think our origional pick before the trade with the Vikes was like 50 or 51
which I would have used on Beadles, but that's plenty and I think the Broncos may have paid a bit of a premium for him so no, guess I would not have moved up and thrown in xtra picks. Jon Asamoath was available, but don't know if he was the same fit as a ZB Olineman as Beadles ?

ChampionTexan
08-25-2010, 12:26 PM
They also picked Ryan Young from the Jets in the expansion draft who got hurt .

This was supposed to be the Texans first Ol .

Boselli Pitts McKinney Weary Young

I think Young's who he was referring to when he said bookend tackles.

As your "theoretical" starting O-line reflects, McKinney was also a pretty high profile FA pickup. He'd started at guard for the Colts for four years when we signed him.

Didn't work out even close to what they'd planned, but yeah, it was a pretty high priority at the time.

I to this day lament the fact that Willie Roaf couldn't pass his physical to be included in the expansion draft, and Boselli could.

HOU-TEX
08-25-2010, 12:48 PM
Would you like to wager that he makes the roster?

I don't think Shelley Smith is a fan favorite. I just think he's a favorite of those of us who have been paying close attention to the interior line this preseason. Would you like to dispute that he has looked exceptional in the games so far?

I never said he wouldn't make the roster. Kubiak has put all his draft picks on the roster (or IR'd, but still on team) their rookie years.

Playing exceptional against 3's and 4's in the preseason doesn't mean jack. Players that light it up in preseason come and go.

I didn't read the blog, but going by the title and the player being discussed it sounds as if y'all are saying Shelley's the solution. Pfft! "Child please"

76Texan
08-25-2010, 12:49 PM
I'm hopeful that, after the horrid performance by Wade Smith and another good (but short) performance by my new, favorite Texan (Shelley Smith) that we may see Shelley get some reps against the 1st unit on Saturday.... Here's the article:



This is my second article in a week praising Shelley Smith’s performance. So, I should preface this one by stating that I am not a Colorado State graduate. I watched Shelley Smith at training camp and came away unimpressed. So, I was as surprised as anyone to witness his performance in Arizona. It was flawless. Kubiak made special mention of Smith’s performance in the press conference after the Arizona game when asked an unrelated question. So, clearly the coaching staff took note. So, I was excited to see Shelley Smith play against New Orleans’ second unit this week. Unfortunately, because of a lack offensive snaps due to a pitiful defensive performance, Smith did not enter the game until the final drive. I am hopeful that Shelley Smith will get a genuine look in the game versus Dallas, but I am concerned that (for reasons I am not privy to) the Texan coaching staff has determined that he is not a consideration for an active day roster job, either as starting LG or as the G/C backup… He did, after all, start at center for three years at CSU.

Below is a play from the end of the game at New Orleans. Shelley Smith is LG, #71. He only played about 10 snaps but once again never got beat and always looked good. What I love about this video are a few things: He takes care of his primary job. He has his head on a swivel, looking for blitzes and stunts. He realizes he can help elsewhere. He is determined to hit somebody. The physicality and agressiveness he displays as he takes out the RDE. Below the Shelley Smith highlight are two lowlights of Wade Smith from Saturday. His play was very poor, in my opinion. Finally, there is a link below to check out highlights of Shelley Smith from the Arizona game, if you are so inclined:

Here's the link to the video (http://www.texansbullblog.com/shelley-smith-solution-texan-lg-woes/news/)

DM, we both like S. Smith; but IMHO, he has not shown enough to prove that he can be a starter. Besides, there are other implications as we consider that the Texans will carry between 8-9 O-linemen.

Winston, Caldwell, Myers, Brown are locked whether they start or not.
Wade Smith is a lock due to the money paid him
Butler is the swing tackle.
Studdard will be at least a backup due to his experience and improved plays toward the end of the season.
Brisiel, when healthy, looked better than any guard on the current roster.
White also did well at RG last year (he was more consistent than Caldwell overall, but Caldwell was definitely stronger - and being younger - holds more upside.)
So, where does it leaves S. Smith?

76Texan
08-25-2010, 12:57 PM
I think our origional pick before the trade with the Vikes was like 50 or 51
which I would have used on Beadles, but that's plenty and I think the Broncos may have paid a bit of a premium for him so no, guess I would not have moved up and thrown in xtra picks. Jon Asamoath was available, but don't know if he was the same fit as a ZB Olineman as Beadles ?

From what I watched, I don't think Mike Johnson, Asamoah nor Beadles are short-term solutions. They all got beat a bit too much in one-on-one situations to my liking.
Their long-term prospects are not great either, JMHO! (ie. both strong and quick).

IDEXAN
08-25-2010, 01:08 PM
Well DaleMurphy, I'm gonna be curious to see what the Texans do with
Smith ? If they put him on their 53 then proves you got the eye, and if they try to move him to their PS and he's grabbed off of waivers, then you still got the eye and the Texans don't recognize the talent they drafted.
But if they are able to get him on their PS without being grabbed by another team, then you're wrong about his talent ? Fair enough ?

Wolf6151
08-25-2010, 01:10 PM
I to this day lament the fact that Willie Roaf couldn't pass his physical to be included in the expansion draft, and Boselli could.


There was some major BS going on in the NFL front office with that one. Boselli was healthy enough to be drafted but never played a down and Roaf was to unhealthy to be drafted but went on to several pro bowls afterward. That's some BS.

As for the original idea of this thread, what to do about LG, I'm not in love with any of the players but I'd have to say that if he's healthy Brisiel is probably the best of a bad group. Also OG/C should be chosen in the 1st or 2nd round next year.

76Texan
08-25-2010, 01:18 PM
From what I observed, and I had responded in a post to TPN: at times, the Texans were lining-up the Guard(s) a bit further back behind the LOS ( a foot to two feet).

IMO, this helps guys like Studdard and Caldwell who are not as light-footed as the others.

But it could hurt the other guys at times.
The Wade Smith example is one of them.
I honestly don't know how to convey my thoughts; perhaps somebody can run with it?!?

Another thing is that since we've been working with different blocking schemes, W. Smith's skills as a cut blocker and a downhill blocker haven't had time to shows themselves. (Let alone his versatility at multiple positions!)
(And as a reminder, I have never penciled W.Smith in as a starter like some other posters. I was willing to give him the chance to show how he can mess with the team, but saw his values more as a backup at multiple positions.)

76Texan
08-25-2010, 01:27 PM
Well DaleMurphy, I'm gonna be curious to see what the Texans do with
Smith ? If they put him on their 53 then proves you got the eye, and if they try to move him to their PS and he's grabbed off of waivers, then you still got the eye and the Texans don't recognize the talent they drafted.
But if they are able to get him on their PS without being grabbed by another team, then you're wrong about his talent ? Fair enough ?

Oh, there's a chance S. Smith can make the roster:
- An injury, or Brisiel has a set back (nobody wants it, but the scenario is there!)
- The same thing with him on the PS. If a team run a ZBS has an injured player, S. Smith is a strong candidate for them to sign off our PS (if we're able to put him on the PS).

My honest opinion?
That would depend on the consistency he displays in practice as well.
Let's say everybody is healthy: Release Chris White (even though I like his plays and had said that he was more consistent than both Caldwell and Studdard). He can always get a call-back (the percentage is higher, IMHO).

Honoring Earl 34
08-25-2010, 01:58 PM
I do like the rib shot that Smith put on the Saint . The Texans haven't really had guys who look to pop folks on the OL .

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 02:28 PM
I never said he wouldn't make the roster. Kubiak has put all his draft picks on the roster (or IR'd, but still on team) their rookie years.

Playing exceptional against 3's and 4's in the preseason doesn't mean jack. Players that light it up in preseason come and go.

I didn't read the blog, but going by the title and the player being discussed it sounds as if y'all are saying Shelley's the solution. Pfft! "Child please"

1. You said he'll "likely be on the street in a couple weeks"... that sounds like you don't think he is making the roster.

2. OL is different than RB or WR. I'm not just looking at his stats and saying, "wow he's good... he had 60 yards rushing in the fourth quarter"... I'm actually watching things like his feet, his awareness, his strength, his attitude. Against Arizona, he started the second half. He was right next to Chris White and Wade Smith was playing RG. Shelley Smith was head and shoulders better than either of those two guys, playing the same competition.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 02:33 PM
DM, we both like S. Smith; but IMHO, he has not shown enough to prove that he can be a starter. Besides, there are other implications as we consider that the Texans will carry between 8-9 O-linemen.

Winston, Caldwell, Myers, Brown are locked whether they start or not.
Wade Smith is a lock due to the money paid him
Butler is the swing tackle.
Studdard will be at least a backup due to his experience and improved plays toward the end of the season.
Brisiel, when healthy, looked better than any guard on the current roster.
White also did well at RG last year (he was more consistent than Caldwell overall, but Caldwell was definitely stronger - and being younger - holds more upside.)
So, where does it leaves S. Smith?


I'm not neccessarily suggesting that he should start week one as a rookie, but I am very excited about him. I simply want to see him get tested against another team's ones during the preseason and have the opportunity to fight for the job. Barring a setback, it is hard for me to imagine Smith not being a quality NFL guard, based on the 30 snaps I've seen so far. I realize it is a small sample.

Regarding the roster, Brisiel essentially eliminated Chris White from the roster with his performance against N.O. at Center and Guard. Brisiel ability to backup both spots eliminates White's biggest asset. I sometimes question this organization's evaluation of its own talent (like the safety situation last season and their obsession with Frank Okam this season). However, Kubiak explicitly commended Smith after the Arizona game. He's been noticed and identified. Surely they won't expose him in order to keep Catfish around.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 02:39 PM
I didn't read the blog, but going by the title and the player being discussed it sounds as if y'all are saying Shelley's the solution. Pfft! "Child please"

I don't get why you are compelled to argue and yet unwilling to look at the evidence presented. I know there is an element on the message boards that are somehow offended by presenting links and bristle at the idea of clicking on them. I find that a bit strange, frankly, but if that is your deal, you can go to youtube and search for Shelley Smith and find the three videos we created and get some sense for why we are excited about him.

76Texan
08-25-2010, 02:44 PM
I'm not neccessarily suggesting that he should start week one as a rookie, but I am very excited about him. I simply want to see him get tested against another team's ones during the preseason and have the opportunity to fight for the job. Barring a setback, it is hard for me to imagine Smith not being a quality NFL guard, based on the 30 snaps I've seen so far. I realize it is a small sample.

Regarding the roster, Brisiel essentially eliminated Chris White from the roster with his performance against N.O. at Center and Guard. Brisiel ability to backup both spots eliminates White's biggest asset. I sometimes question this organization's evaluation of its own talent (like the safety situation last season and their obsession with Frank Okam this season). However, Kubiak explicitly commended Smith after the Arizona game. He's been noticed and identified. Surely they won't expose him in order to keep Catfish around.
That's a contradiction, isn't it?

76Texan
08-25-2010, 02:51 PM
Also, I disagree about the statement that Brisiel's play essentially eliminate Chris White.

If those two are fighting for a spot, I want to make sure that Brisiel can come back 100% without complication in the future (that is if I want to be fair to both players.)

But hey, I've already said out loud that White can be resigned later if we cut him.

However, the same thing can be said about Brisiel as well, if we cut him.

I don't mean to be rude to the players, but neither has a good percentage of a high resell value once they got cut.

HOU-TEX
08-25-2010, 02:58 PM
Geez, I always thought the back up QB was always a fan favorite. Now it's a 3rd or 4th string guard who dominated guys who'll likely be on the street in a couple weeks.

The dude might eventually work out, but now? Nah

1. You said he'll "likely be on the street in a couple weeks"... that sounds like you don't think he is making the roster.

2. OL is different than RB or WR. I'm not just looking at his stats and saying, "wow he's good... he had 60 yards rushing in the fourth quarter"... I'm actually watching things like his feet, his awareness, his strength, his attitude. Against Arizona, he started the second half. He was right next to Chris White and Wade Smith was playing RG. Shelley Smith was head and shoulders better than either of those two guys, playing the same competition.

Re-read my post. I said he was going against players likely to be on the streets

I don't get why you are compelled to argue and yet unwilling to look at the evidence presented. I know there is an element on the message boards that are somehow offended by presenting links and bristle at the idea of clicking on them. I find that a bit strange, frankly, but if that is your deal, you can go to youtube and search for Shelley Smith and find the three videos we created and get some sense for why we are excited about him.

Myself, 76, I-Cak and 100's of others post our thoughts and opinions right here on this board. What makes your opinion so special that I'd have to re-direct to another sight to read it. It appears the mods are ok with it, so it is what it is.

beerlover
08-25-2010, 03:12 PM
maybe the solution @ LG is like a revolving door because the center position has yet to be settled?

me, myself & I think that otherwise Brisiel is the Texans best LG, however something is up with the Center competition, now he is in that mix & one thing I've noticed about his game is he doesn't give up ground easy which has been a Texans weakness @ the point of attack. This opens the door for Shelly Smith & Wade Smith. Antoine "Gump" Caldwell is entrenched as the Texans starting RG, next to RT Winston & the other side LT Brown.

http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/kubiak-presser-reading-between-the-lines-1

Kubiak was also pleased with Mike Brisiel who worked at backup center with Brett Helms out: "Obviously we want him to work in the guard situation and battle for a job there," said Kubiak. "We want to see him play at the center position since Helms is out, because now we're starting to talk about our seven-man rotation. How's that going to work? Who's going to be our backup center? Who's going to be our swing guy? Obviously, he's a big candidate for that, so he took a step forward, though. He played good." Any time you can play guard and center, you have a leg up on a guy that can't.

so your Houston Texans opening day starting OL could be-


LT Duane Brown
LG Shelly Smith
C Mike Brisiel
RG Antoine Caldwell
RT Eric Winston

76Texan
08-25-2010, 03:25 PM
I'm not neccessarily suggesting that he should start week one as a rookie, but I am very excited about him. I simply want to see him get tested against another team's ones during the preseason and have the opportunity to fight for the job. Barring a setback, it is hard for me to imagine Smith not being a quality NFL guard, based on the 30 snaps I've seen so far. I realize it is a small sample.
Regarding the roster, Brisiel essentially eliminated Chris White from the roster with his performance against N.O. at Center and Guard. Brisiel ability to backup both spots eliminates White's biggest asset. I sometimes question this organization's evaluation of its own talent (like the safety situation last season and their obsession with Frank Okam this season). However, Kubiak explicitly commended Smith after the Arizona game. He's been noticed and identified. Surely they won't expose him in order to keep Catfish around.Well, I had reviewed his collegiate game tapes besides the PS.
Sure, I like him a lot. He did well against good teams like Utah and TCU (but did get beat here and there.)
(Whether at LG or RG. The Rams switch him and Pemberton from left to right quite often. Maybe I need to go back and relay what I saw. I lost a few too many notes shuffling from too many different hard drive storages.)

But still, I need to see him against better competition days in and days out.
What I've seen on the field has been good, but not totally convincing.
I can see him make the roster as previously mentioned.
I can see that he has a lot of attributes (including how he recovers after getting beat, as b0ng was concerned).
I like his plays better than Mike Johnson in college, but the level of competion was different.
The upside is there.
The decision whether to fastrack is up to the coaches.

Personally, if all the guys are healthy and if I could, I would rather put him on the PS. Unless he totally outplays the other guys in practice and in PS.
If that's the case, it would be welcome news to me.

It wasn't like the coaches heven't been giving guys the opportunity to play; from Mitchell to Sharpton, to Graham and the rest.

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 03:43 PM
Well, I had reviewed his collegiate game tapes besides the PS.
Sure, I like him a lot. He did well against good teams like Utah and TCU (but did get beat here and there.)
(Whether at LG or RG. The Rams switch him and Pemberton from left to right quite often. Maybe I need to go back and relay what I saw. I lost a few too many notes shuffling from too many different hard drive storages.)

But still, I need to see him against better competition days in and days out.
What I've seen on the field has been good, but not totally convincing.
I can see him make the roster as previously mentioned.
I can see that he has a lot of attributes (including how he recovers after getting beat, as b0ng was concerned).
I like his plays better than Mike Johnson in college, but the level of competion was different.
The upside is there.
The decision whether to fastrack is up to the coaches.

Personally, if all the guys are healthy and if I could, I would rather put him on the PS. Unless he totally outplays the other guys in practice and in PS.
If that's the case, it would be welcome news to me.

It wasn't like the coaches heven't been giving guys the opportunity to play; from Mitchell to Sharpton, to Graham and the rest.

Absolutely. This staff has been very good at identifying and developing players at LB and TE... However, their record with the interior defensive line and offensive line has been rather poor. My eyes tell me that Deljuan Robinson is a vastly superior DT than Okam yet Okam is going to make the roster and Robinson isn't even given a shot. On the offensive line, they have been trying to find quality guard play for years without very much success. So, when I look at position battles in the preseason, I'm going to trust this staff over my eyes more often at LB, QB, TE, WR more than I'll trust them with DT and G.. Doesn't make me right, neccessarily, but there you go.

76Texan
08-25-2010, 04:07 PM
Absolutely. This staff has been very good at identifying and developing players at LB and TE... However, their record with the interior defensive line and offensive line has been rather poor. My eyes tell me that Deljuan Robinson is a vastly superior DT than Okam yet Okam is going to make the roster and Robinson isn't even given a shot. On the offensive line, they have been trying to find quality guard play for years without very much success. So, when I look at position battles in the preseason, I'm going to trust this staff over my eyes more often at LB, QB, TE, WR more than I'll trust them with DT and G.. Doesn't make me right, neccessarily, but there you go.

My eyes tell me that both Deljuan and Okam are inconsistent players.
Deljuan is not going to be a force to occupy the double-team; and he's not going to be a player with a great first step to penetrate consistently either.
He's caught between a rock and hard place.

Okam, I've thought from the start, would have been better playing around 310-315 (or even lower if he can manage it). He was a guy I watched in college that was oh so close to the play so many times. He got there quite a few times, but I swear, he was oh so close to so many more plays (and therefore my wish that he can maintain a lower playing weight.)

Whether it was his body's inability to keep of the extra weight or the coaches' suggestion, I do not know.
I do think that people (including quite a few good friends of mine) who labels him as lazy probably overstates it a bit.
Last I saw him on the field, he was chasing after the play looking more fit than many of us on this board (OK, that was just to lighten things up a bit!)

steelbtexan
08-25-2010, 04:21 PM
If healthy Brisiel should be the starting LG. IMHO

Wade Smith is what he is a run of the mill journeyman backup interior OL. That Smithiak greatly over paid for. IMHO

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 04:43 PM
If healthy Brisiel should be the starting LG. IMHO

Wade Smith is what he is a run of the mill journeyman backup interior OL. That Smithiak greatly over paid for. IMHO

It sounds like you are complaining about overspending? I thought you wanted more of that?

I actually agree with you that Smith looks like a back OLman... I think he is better than a "run of the mill journeyman backup"... but, I don't want to fight about semantics. Regarding Brisiel, if he's healthy enough, you are probably right. I wonder how he physically recoverd from all those snaps Saturday night?

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 04:47 PM
My eyes tell me that both Deljuan and Okam are inconsistent players.
Deljuan is not going to be a force to occupy the double-team; and he's not going to be a player with a great first step to penetrate consistently either.
He's caught between a rock and hard place.

Okam, I've thought from the start, would have been better playing around 310-315 (or even lower if he can manage it). He was a guy I watched in college that was oh so close to the play so many times. He got there quite a few times, but I swear, he was oh so close to so many more plays (and therefore my wish that he can maintain a lower playing weight.)

Whether it was his body's inability to keep of the extra weight or the coaches' suggestion, I do not know.
I do think that people (including quite a few good friends of mine) who labels him as lazy probably overstates it a bit.
Last I saw him on the field, he was chasing after the play looking more fit than many of us on this board (OK, that was just to lighten things up a bit!)


It's funny how two people can watch the same thing and come away with such different conclusions. I will say that Okam didn't look that bad against New Orleans. I just don't trust him or his motor and I don't think he has done anything on the field to earn the roster exemption he is being given. I don't seem him as a guy that will play better when it matters. He seems to me more a guy that will fade in the big spot- though, I admit, that conclusion isn't based on much concrete information.

Regarding the laziness tag, it was pretty comical watching him in training camp practice the first week. He was immediately sucking wind and the entire team and coaching staff were consistently prodding him to increase his motor. So, I think he has earned that tag.

76Texan
08-25-2010, 04:57 PM
It's funny how two people can watch the same thing and come away with such different conclusions. I will say that Okam didn't look that bad against New Orleans. I just don't trust him or his motor and I don't think he has done anything on the field to earn the roster exemption he is being given. I don't seem him as a guy that will play better when it matters. He seems to me more a guy that will fade in the big spot- though, I admit, that conclusion isn't based on much concrete information.

Regarding the laziness tag, it was pretty comical watching him in training camp practice the first week. He was immediately sucking wind and the entire team and coaching staff were consistently prodding him to increase his motor. So, I think he has earned that tag.

If that's the case then I would suggest we fire the entire team, from the coaching staff to the players (as you had clearly emphasized the entire team).

dalemurphy
08-25-2010, 05:03 PM
If that's the case then I would suggest we fire the entire team, from the coaching staff to the players (as you had clearly emphasized the entire team).

I'm not sure I understand? Perhaps you misunderstood my point? I was saying that many of the players and also the coaches were attempting to motivate Frank Okam because he was dragging during the practices.

76Texan
08-25-2010, 05:08 PM
I'm not sure I understand? Perhaps you misunderstood my point? I was saying that many of the players and also the coaches were attempting to motivate Frank Okam because he was dragging during the practices.

If they were having a little fun like they have with the smallest guy on the team like Holliday is one matter.

If they need to constantly motivate him, then we do really need to fire the entire team!

JB
08-25-2010, 05:52 PM
If they were having a little fun like they have with the smallest guy on the team like Holliday is one matter.

If they need to constantly motivate him, then we do really need to fire the entire team!

If you mean this seriously, I find that to be an asinine statement. If you go into boot camp, and you have a straggler in the ranks that needs some help from his mates, you don't kick the whole company out. You try to get the straggler up to par and make the team stronger.

76Texan
08-25-2010, 11:09 PM
If you mean this seriously, I find that to be an asinine statement. If you go into boot camp, and you have a straggler in the ranks that needs some help from his mates, you don't kick the whole company out. You try to get the straggler up to par and make the team stronger.

What you say is true.
But in this case we can actually cut the "bad" player that is also "unmotivated".

It doesn't take a smart person to make that decision, does it?

76Texan
08-25-2010, 11:22 PM
If healthy Brisiel should be the starting LG. IMHO

Wade Smith is what he is a run of the mill journeyman backup interior OL. That Smithiak greatly over paid for. IMHO

What we saw from Brisiel was better than what Studdard showed last year, but we don't know if Brisiel will be 100% or not.

In the meantime, Studdard looks to have improved.
So, I think it's a good fight for the starting spot.

My opinion has always been that I don't mind W. Smith to be a back-up at multiple position if other guys show better.

steelbtexan
08-25-2010, 11:36 PM
It sounds like you are complaining about overspending? I thought you wanted more of that?

I actually agree with you that Smith looks like a back OLman... I think he is better than a "run of the mill journeyman backup"... but, I don't want to fight about semantics. Regarding Brisiel, if he's healthy enough, you are probably right. I wonder how he physically recoverd from all those snaps Saturday night?

No, I dont belive in spending $$$ on journeymen.

I'm for cutting guys who make more $$$$ than they're worth OkOye and W.Smith for example and keeping min. guys like Sheppard and S.Smith.

Then taking that saved $$$ and spending it on all pro players like Mankins.

But that's just me.

TimeKiller
08-26-2010, 07:31 AM
What I want:
Brown-S Smith-Myers-Caldwell-Winston

Brisiel, Studdard, Butler

What will probably happen instead:
Brown-Studdard-Myers-Caldwell-Winston

Brisiel, W Smith, Butler

Wolf6151
08-27-2010, 11:19 PM
Who's going to be the starting LG against Dallas? Studdard sucked against Arizona and W. Smith sucked against New Orleans, does Brisiel get the start?

J_R
08-27-2010, 11:42 PM
Wade Smith is getting the start tomorrow.

Smith earns starting nod

Wade Smith played well enough at left guard to warrant a second consecutive start in front of Kasey Studdard. Chris Myers owns the starting center job. Antoine Caldwell starts at right guard over Mike Brisiel.

The interior offensive line is an area of concern after last season's running woes.

"I think it has been a very good battle," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "Kasey and Mike will both play a great deal. It's been good competition, and we're getting close. I feel good about the progress up front."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7175339.html

IDEXAN
08-28-2010, 08:28 AM
Wade Smith played well enough at left guard to warrant a second consecutive starthttp://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7175339.html
That's news to me ? I hope it's not just an indication of W.Smith being the least of our liabilities at LG ?
I'm really looking forward to watching his performance tonight along with the rest of the team. Glad it's a national telecast so everyone outside of the Houston zips can watch.

MojoMan
08-28-2010, 10:00 PM
Wade Smith is one of the most highly paid players on the Texan's offensive line, so if the competition is anywhere close to even, he is likely to get the nod.

Which he did tonight against the Cowboys, playing at LG with the starters well into the third quarter. The third game of the preaseason is traditionally the dress rehearsal game for the regular season, so it appears increasingly likely that Wade Smith will be the starting LG to open the season.

Rey
08-30-2010, 09:57 AM
On the offensive line, Wade Smith has almost won the starting job at left guard over Kasey Studdard. Mike Brisiel is trying to get his starting job back at right guard, where he divided playing time with Antoine Caldwell.

"If you ask me of the four guards who have been battling for two spots, I think he (Smith) is the one that's showed continuous improvement," Kubiak said. "He has a chance to be an excellent player. There's a great battle going on at right guard ."

The top portion is the writers comments but it appears that is the case anyways.

Also, it seems like Caldwell is not the shoe-in that most thought at the right gaurd spot.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7177350.html

HOU-TEX
08-30-2010, 10:05 AM
I watched Wade Smith a lot during the first half and thought he did well. He did miss on a couple blocks, but IMO, he's much better than Studdard and should be the starter on opening day.

I'll have to re-watch the game to watch more of Caldwell and Brisiel.

J_R
08-30-2010, 11:35 PM
Pretty much reiterated above but O-line just about set, with the exception at RG where Caldwell and Briesel are fighting. Looks like Wade made a push and got the job.

Antoine Caldwell and Mike Brisiel will rotate on Thursday as the Texans try to settle on a starter at right guard. Kubiak indicated Monday that the rest of the O-line starters appear to be set. “I think our whole offensive line has gotten a lot better from preseason game one to game four just because of the competition that we’ve been able to build,” Caldwell said. “Mike was the starter last year. When we came into this preseason, I knew what it was going to be: We were going to be battling for a job. We have one more game left, and it’s been good so far. We’re just looking forward to it.”

Sidenote: Wonder if Nolan is pushing for a starting job?

When Kubiak was asked to name players on both sides of the ball with whom he has been most pleased, he responded with free safety Troy Nolan on defense and left guard Wade Smith on offense. “I don’t want to say it’s been surprising; he’s what we thought he was,” Kubiak said of Smith, who has played his way into the starting lineup. “He’s got a chance to be an excellent player.” Kubiak said that Nolan “just continues to make plays every time he gets an opportunity. He should be a heck of a player for (special teams coordinator) Joe (Marciano), too. That’s very important.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/blog/index.asp?post_id=1411

Wolf6151
08-31-2010, 05:10 PM
Hopefully Wade Smith continues to get better or at least plays to the level he did against Dallas, he's hands down much better than Studdard who in my opinion wouldn't have a job if his father and Kubiak weren't good friends. If Studdard were on any other team he'd have been cut by now. As for the battle at RG I'm hoping that Caldwell beats out Brisiel since Brisiel has been injured and never was that good. Hopefully our O-line will be a bigger priority in next years draft.

76Texan
09-01-2010, 06:00 AM
I watched Wade Smith a lot during the first half and thought he did well. He did miss on a couple blocks, but IMO, he's much better than Studdard and should be the starter on opening day.

I'll have to re-watch the game to watch more of Caldwell and Brisiel.

If we count all the snaps they played in the 3 exhibition games, none of them had separated themselves, IMHO.

Both Guard positions look wide-open to me.
But, as Mojo said, in that case, Wade Smith has the advantage.

Caldwell and Brisiel are not quite the in the same boat.
It was Brisiel's job to lose if he proves healthy, but Caldwell was drafted in the third round.
(I think brisiel signed an extension earlier this year, didn't he?)

It doesn't really matter to me who gets the start.
I was never down on any of them.

ChampionTexan
09-01-2010, 07:00 AM
Caldwell and Brisiel are not quite the in the same boat.
It was Brisiel's job to lose if he proves healthy, but Caldwell was drafted in the third round.
(I think brisiel signed an extension earlier this year, didn't he?)



Brisiel was tendered as a RFA, and signed the tender. He's under contract for one year at $650K.

dalemurphy
09-01-2010, 07:18 AM
If we count all the snaps they played in the 3 exhibition games, none of them had separated themselves, IMHO.

Both Guard positions look wide-open to me.
But, as Mojo said, in that case, Wade Smith has the advantage.

Caldwell and Brisiel are not quite the in the same boat.
It was Brisiel's job to lose if he proves healthy, but Caldwell was drafted in the third round.
(I think brisiel signed an extension earlier this year, didn't he?)

It doesn't really matter to me who gets the start.
I was never down on any of them.

I'd estimate that Brisiel starting = 10 more hits on Schaub over the course of a season, 3 more holding penalties... other than that, there probably isn't too much difference.

I like Brisiel but his effectiveness is pretty dependent on clutching, grabbing, etc... I think I even saw him bite once this pre-season. Also, I think Caldwell is clearly the best pass blocker of the interior linemen.

76Texan
09-01-2010, 07:50 AM
I'd estimate that Brisiel starting = 10 more hits on Schaub over the course of a season, 3 more holding penalties... other than that, there probably isn't too much difference.

I like Brisiel but his effectiveness is pretty dependent on clutching, grabbing, etc... I think I even saw him bite once this pre-season. Also, I think Caldwell is clearly the best pass blocker of the interior linemen.

We have to factor in the fact that Brisiel has been out of football for quite a long while.

As far as pass blocking is concerned for this PS, we will have to break down all the situations in each play to have a clearer opinion.

What I have noted a couple of weeks earlier was that the Texans are setting up the Guards differently from last year.
Generally, they lined up a bit further from the LOS.

It takes time for them to get used to it.
And the coaches made some adjustments as well.

I only made mental notes.
Maybe you guys can go back and take further looks:

At times, one or both Guards could be deeper than the tackle(s).
At least there was one time in which they were side by side with Schaub.

This helps the tackle(s) from inside attack(s) by the DE/OLBs.
But it means that the A gap can be vulnerable.
We need the RB to help out here.

That was where W.Smith and Studdard got in trouble at least once in earlier games.
In the Dallas game, we made a concerted effort to have Myers stepping back quicker. Schaub also was more prepared to side-step the pressure when one arose.

J_R
09-02-2010, 10:43 PM
Going off the postgame presser, sounds like Briesel might of got the job. (fwiw)

Position battle at guard?

Have to look at it. Good battle. Caldwell was doing a good job. Mike just pushed him to the limit. COuld do a rotation if neither proved to seperate themself.

MojoMan
09-02-2010, 11:08 PM
D. Brown
W. Smith
C. Meyers
A. Caldwell
E. Winston

Let it be written, let it be done.