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View Full Version : Cushing's 4-game suspension remains in place


Texans34Life
08-19-2010, 11:11 AM
#NickScurfield

Texans just released a statement from the NFL that LB Brian Cushing's 4-game suspension has been upheld after a review by the commissioner

#Adam_Schefter

Commissioner Goodell found no basis for changing Brian Cushing’s suspension. Four game suspension remains in place.

Cjeremy635
08-19-2010, 11:13 AM
Whatever....

Big Ben's 6 game suspension better stay in place too.

Texan_Bill
08-19-2010, 11:13 AM
Roger Goodell is a prison punk!

No More 8-8's
08-19-2010, 11:15 AM
nice try.....it was a long shot to begin with.

Thorn
08-19-2010, 11:20 AM
it would have been pretty suprising if it had come out any other way

drs23
08-19-2010, 11:25 AM
it would have been pretty suprising if it had come out any other way

I agree. Few, if any here thought anything would change. I certainly didn't.

Jackie Chiles
08-19-2010, 11:30 AM
Not surprising, hopefully this is the last time we will have to hear about the suspension until it actually gets lifted in week 5. Getting more and more confident that we can survive those first 4 without him as well.

Malloy
08-19-2010, 11:30 AM
Oh well, we'll just have to do without him.

hradhak
08-19-2010, 11:35 AM
I had very little hope that this would be overturned. I'm glad they tried though.
I still think that it is unfair to suspend someone for 4 games when there's even the remotest possibility that the lab test could be false. Cushing did test positive once and negative twice. On top of that, the agent he test positive for isn't a performance enhancing drug but a masking agent. Maybe he was just taking the masking agent for the hell of it. It seems to me though, that the NFL is acting on circumstantial evidence, which bothers me.

HuttoKarl
08-19-2010, 11:39 AM
Sharpton time!

eriadoc
08-19-2010, 11:41 AM
Of course it remains in place. I would have actually lost all respect for the commish if he had done anything but scoffed at the Texans.

Overtraining. Yeah, because in a league full of people who have dedicated their entire lives to working out and getting big, you're the one guy that ends up with an excess of female hormone. Uh huh.

BIG TORO
08-19-2010, 11:51 AM
Sharpton time!

Exactly Sharpton looked good the other day, I think he can fill the void till Cushing comes back puts another gash on Eli's head.

HuttoKarl
08-19-2010, 11:53 AM
Exactly Sharpton looked good the other day, I think he can fill the void till Cushing comes back puts another gash on Eli's head.

From the NOLA Times-Picayune....


# The Saints' second-string offense fared even worse in the two-minute drill. Quarterback Patrick Ramsey threw an interception to Houston linebacker Darryl Sharpton on his second pass attempt.

PHAROAH
08-19-2010, 11:53 AM
You do the crime do the time.

Texecutioner
08-19-2010, 11:53 AM
Of course it remains in place. I would have actually lost all respect for the commish if he had done anything but scoffed at the Texans.

Overtraining. Yeah, because in a league full of people who have dedicated their entire lives to working out and getting big, you're the one guy that ends up with an excess of female hormone. Uh huh.

God, it's about time someone stopped with this nonsense. I'm glad that goodell didn't overturn it either. Cushing tested positive so he should be suspended just like any other player who would have. Amazing how people try to twist this into Cush being some type of victim here. This is his fault and no one else's fault. Hopefully he learns from this and this doesn't ever happen again.

dalemurphy
08-19-2010, 12:11 PM
God, it's about time someone stopped with this nonsense. I'm glad that goodell didn't overturn it either. Cushing tested positive so he should be suspended just like any other player who would have. Amazing how people try to twist this into Cush being some type of victim here. This is his fault and no one else's fault. Hopefully he learns from this and this doesn't ever happen again.

Well, it isn't his fault if he wasn't taking an illegal substance. I have no problem with the suspension being upheld. After all, Goodell has more information on the subject than I do. However, I'm not going to condemn a player and assume that he is a liar and a cheat unless he has a track record to prove him untrustworthy. Until then, I view this as an unfortunate situation and I am hopeful that Cushing is being honest about it.

Texan_Bill
08-19-2010, 12:13 PM
Sharpton time!

That's Reverend Sharpton to you, mister!

HoustonFrog
08-19-2010, 12:17 PM
God, it's about time someone stopped with this nonsense. I'm glad that goodell didn't overturn it either. Cushing tested positive so he should be suspended just like any other player who would have. Amazing how people try to twist this into Cush being some type of victim here. This is his fault and no one else's fault. Hopefully he learns from this and this doesn't ever happen again.

Agreed. Sounds like the players have his back but have hinted at the same

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5476631

"Cushing's going to be missed, he's a great piece to this puzzle, but they are not going to stop the games because he's not playing," Pollard said. " . . . We have to back him at whatever he does. That's out teammate, we love our teammate.

"He knows and understands for every decision you make, there are consequences. He has to understand that for everything you do, we have to hold each other accountable. Cush is a great man, he's a great player. And when he comes back we're going to be ready to play ball."

TimeKiller
08-19-2010, 12:22 PM
Whatever....

Big Ben's 6 game suspension better stay in place too.

****ing right. RAPE is different than steroid use. RAPE is much different than steroid use. RAPE is entirely different. Especially since this is BR's 2nd RAPE...and only Cush's 1st negative test ever.

On top of that, the agent he test positive for isn't a performance enhancing drug but a masking agent. Maybe he was just taking the masking agent for the hell of it. .

I heard a few effects that hcG has, one being increased production of natural testosterone (let's all guess how that would be beneficial to an athlete) and two being increased metabolism (another enormous benefit to an athlete). It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to think he loaded up on hcG without a roid cycle just to get those small benefits. However, too much is too much and he got popped. I really doubt he was roiding, just my gut feeling. I honestly believe he values his body too much to do that. I'm probably wrong but hey, time will tell.

b0ng
08-19-2010, 12:25 PM
That's Reverend Sharpton to you, mister!

You're thinking of his uncle. Either way, I don't believe Cush and I'm not surprised that the commish didn't either. I really wish Cushing would've taken his lumps but whatever.

Texecutioner
08-19-2010, 12:26 PM
Well, it isn't his fault if he wasn't taking an illegal substance. I have no problem with the suspension being upheld. After all, Goodell has more information on the subject than I do. However, I'm not going to condemn a player and assume that he is a liar and a cheat unless he has a track record to prove him untrustworthy. Until then, I view this as an unfortunate situation and I am hopeful that Cushing is being honest about it.

If Cushing is innocent and has never touched roids, than I'll say the same thing for Brian Bozworth. That's about as silly as this whole issue is with the people trying to defend him because he plays for the Texans. Just stop it already. The fact that he keeps trying to keep this chirade up and coming up with different twists and turns as to how he tested positive is getting embarrassing at this point. Cushing's had more steroid rumors circulating about him since he was in freaking High School. That's how far the stigma goes back with Cushing. He needs to let it go and so do the fans that keep defending him. He's getting his 4 game suspension as he should and it's time to JUST MOVE ON.

TimeKiller
08-19-2010, 12:38 PM
If Cushing is innocent and has never touched roids, than I'll say the same thing for Brian Bozworth. That's about as silly as this whole issue is with the people trying to defend him because he plays for the Texans. Just stop it already. The fact that he keeps trying to keep this chirade up and coming up with different twists and turns as to how he tested positive is getting embarrassing at this point. Cushing's had more steroid rumors circulating about him since he was in freaking High School. That's how far the stigma goes back with Cushing. He needs to let it go and so do the fans that keep defending him. He's getting his 4 game suspension as he should and it's time to JUST MOVE ON.

Sorry bro, there is just no proof of steroid use. There is proof of a masking agent and lots of speculation that goes with it but if someone wants to stand by Cushing, let 'em. I for one believe he wasn't doing roid-ios for breakfast. I totally think he found something else that gave him an edge that he thought was perfectly within the context of the rules though. Steroids aren't the only banned substance. Since "freaking high school" he's peed and peed and peed and only once has he been positive for something and it wasn't roids. That's a fact.

HuttoKarl
08-19-2010, 12:39 PM
HcG isn't a masking agent. It won't hide the presence of steroids. It's used to jump-start testosterone production after a cycle, but if steroids are in the system, they'll show up on a test.

gary
08-19-2010, 01:16 PM
I will support Cushing in week five but good for Roger. To make the case these drugs should all be fair game is a different thread for a different day. They are not yet and he broke the rules so I am glad. He should not have put his team in this matter but we still love him. I have seen Brian up close last year twice and this year again at training camp and had to do a double take in order to make sure it was him. Even mom said, is that Brain? He would not have any reason to mask them if they were not there. Let him serve his four games and the team has much deapth behind him to take his place. Hopefully this a one and done thing with Brian and he learns his lesson. I know he'll come out ready to go in week five and I do not feel his play has changed at all so that counts for something JMO.

Brisco_County
08-19-2010, 02:00 PM
I heard a few effects that hcG has, one being increased production of natural testosterone (let's all guess how that would be beneficial to an athlete) and two being increased metabolism (another enormous benefit to an athlete). It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to think he loaded up on hcG without a roid cycle just to get those small benefits. However, too much is too much and he got popped. I really doubt he was roiding, just my gut feeling. I honestly believe he values his body too much to do that. I'm probably wrong but hey, time will tell.

I pretty sure that hCG doesn't increase testosterone or enhance performance in any way, but we'll wait for Pencil Neck or CND to get here to confirm this.

Ryan
08-19-2010, 02:00 PM
Well i'm glad Sharpton is developing nicely.

houstonhurricane
08-19-2010, 02:02 PM
If Cushing is innocent and has never touched roids, than I'll say the same thing for Brian Bozworth. That's about as silly as this whole issue is with the people trying to defend him because he plays for the Texans. Just stop it already. The fact that he keeps trying to keep this chirade up and coming up with different twists and turns as to how he tested positive is getting embarrassing at this point. Cushing's had more steroid rumors circulating about him since he was in freaking High School. That's how far the stigma goes back with Cushing. He needs to let it go and so do the fans that keep defending him. He's getting his 4 game suspension as he should and it's time to JUST MOVE ON.

Exactly. He failed the test and tries to come up with the excuses of possible tumors and then later the infamous overtraining syndrome - give me a break. Cushing needs to sit out these games and then come back clean and with even more intensity than before. This will all be forgotten if he comes back and performs at the levels we have been accustomed to seeing...

houstonhurricane
08-19-2010, 02:04 PM
I will support Cushing in week five but good for Roger. To make the case these drugs should all be fair game is a different thread for a different day. They are not yet and he broke the rules so I am glad. He should not have put his team in this matter but we still love him. I have seen Brian up close last year twice and this year again at training camp and had to do a double take in order to make sure it was him. Even mom said, is that Brain? He would not have any reason to mask them if they were not there. Let him serve his four games and the team has much deapth behind him to take his place. Hopefully this a one and done thing with Brian and he learns his lesson. I know he'll come out ready to go in week five and I do not feel his play has changed at all so that counts for something JMO.

Gary, was your double take because Cushing looked smaller or larger than you remember him from last season?

infantrycak
08-19-2010, 02:10 PM
I pretty sure that hCG doesn't increase testosterone or enhance performance in any way, but we'll wait for Pencil Neck or CND to get here to confirm this.

It is not a performance enhancer and is not taken to elevate testosterone above ordinary levels. It is taken to bump start normal testosterone production which has been reduced during a steroid cycle. And as stated above, it is not a masking agent.

Texecutioner
08-19-2010, 02:11 PM
Sorry bro, there is just no proof of steroid use. There is proof of a masking agent and lots of speculation that goes with it but if someone wants to stand by Cushing, let 'em. I for one believe he wasn't doing roid-ios for breakfast. I totally think he found something else that gave him an edge that he thought was perfectly within the context of the rules though. Steroids aren't the only banned substance. Since "freaking high school" he's peed and peed and peed and only once has he been positive for something and it wasn't roids. That's a fact.

Do you believe the same thing about Brian Bozworth or Shawn Merriman?

Texecutioner
08-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Exactly. He failed the test and tries to come up with the excuses of possible tumors and then later the infamous overtraining syndrome - give me a break. Cushing needs to sit out these games and then come back clean and with even more intensity than before. This will all be forgotten if he comes back and performs at the levels we have been accustomed to seeing...

I would Cushing would just shut up at this point and move on. Take your lumps and stop trying to deflect this as something else. I'm actually surprised that Goodell even entertained him and Mcnair's last little defense. He heard them out though and made the right decision. It would have been nice to have the suspension dropped for the team's sake, but the NFL has to keep it's integrity.

infantrycak
08-19-2010, 02:18 PM
Do you believe the same thing about Brian Bozworth or Shawn Merriman?

I don't remember what test Boz failed but Merriman tested positive for steroids not an adjunct.

Texecutioner
08-19-2010, 02:25 PM
I don't remember what test Boz failed but Merriman tested positive for steroids not an adjunct.

Cush failed a test just like Merriman did, but that wasn't the point. The only people that I've seen remotely going out of their way to defend Cush and act like he's some innocent victim here are certain Texans fans from this site. Everyone else around the nation and other fans have been laughing at this pathetic smoke screen Cush has been trying to get people to believe. It's gotten embarrassing at this point and it's not believable in any way. And the fact that Cush has been the poster child for steroids in college for several years and then fails a test makes this whole thing even more ridiculous that people would buy into all these theories that Cush has tried to throw out there. I just hope that these same folks are in the Clemens thread defending him as well.

gary
08-19-2010, 02:30 PM
Gary, was your double take because Cushing looked smaller or larger than you remember him from last season?Smaller. But hey, I am just being honest here.

infantrycak
08-19-2010, 02:31 PM
Cush failed a test just like Merriman did, but that wasn't the point. The only people that I've seen remotely going out of their way to defend Cush and act like he's some innocent victim here are certain Texans fans from this site. Everyone else around the nation and other fans have been laughing at this pathetic smoke screen Cush has been trying to get people to believe. It's gotten embarrassing at this point and it's not believable in any way. And the fact that Cush has been the poster child for steroids in college for several years and then fails a test makes this whole thing even more ridiculous that people would buy into all these theories that Cush has tried to throw out there. I just hope that these same folks are in the Clemens thread defending him as well.

I'm being precise rather than defending Cushing. Fact is he failed a test but it was not for steroids as was Merriman's failed test. Also I give no credence to rumors. Now having said that after hours of conversations with CnD I think it is all but certain Cushing used steroids at some point.

Smaller. But hey, I am just being honest here.

Might have been finding what you were looking for. Cushing weighed in 16 lbs heavier this year than when he was drafted.

gary
08-19-2010, 02:44 PM
I'm being precise rather than defending Cushing. Fact is he failed a test but it was not for steroids as was Merriman's failed test. Also I give no credence to rumors. Now having said that after hours of conversations with CnD I think it is all but certain Cushing used steroids at some point.



Might have been finding what you were looking for. Cushing weighed in 16 lbs heavier this year than when he was drafted.It may have more weight on him but his shoulders are smaller. It is my understanding that Cushing has been suspended for taking something to mask the use of preformence enhancing drurgs. Is that correct?

HuttoKarl
08-19-2010, 02:57 PM
It may have more weight on him but his shoulders are smaller. It is my understanding that Cushing has been suspended for taking something to mask the use of preformence enhancing drurgs. Is that correct?

No. hcg is not a masking agent.

gary
08-19-2010, 03:12 PM
No. hcg is not a masking agent.
Why is that keep on coming up then? Dang it.

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2010, 03:28 PM
I pretty sure that hCG doesn't increase testosterone or enhance performance in any way, but we'll wait for Pencil Neck or CND to get here to confirm this.

hCG is not a performance enhancer and it's not a masking agent.

When you're taking steroids, your pituitary gland recognizes that your testosterone level is too high and stops sending a hormone to your nads. When your nads stop getting that hormone, they shut down and stop producing to try to get your testosterone level back down to normal. When you take hCG, it looks like your pituitary gland is sending the hormone saying to continue producing natural testosterone so your nads start working again.

If your nads aren't shut down, it doesn't make them produce more than normal.

On the weight loss front, it's not a metabolism booster. Some doctor used it along with a VLCD (Very Low Calorie Diet) and said that the hCG helped preserve muscle tissue during dieting. I don't think there's any real proof of this. BUT... the amounts that are supposed to be used for this are fairly low.

Cush might be using it this way so that when he diets, his body preserves muscle mass and loses a higher percentage of fat.

badboy
08-19-2010, 03:39 PM
Well, it isn't his fault if he wasn't taking an illegal substance. I have no problem with the suspension being upheld. After all, Goodell has more information on the subject than I do. However, I'm not going to condemn a player and assume that he is a liar and a cheat unless he has a track record to prove him untrustworthy. Until then, I view this as an unfortunate situation and I am hopeful that Cushing is being honest about it.But if what he was doing got him suspended and he has said he is not changing anything........

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2010, 03:47 PM
Cush failed a test just like Merriman did, but that wasn't the point. The only people that I've seen remotely going out of their way to defend Cush and act like he's some innocent victim here are certain Texans fans from this site. Everyone else around the nation and other fans have been laughing at this pathetic smoke screen Cush has been trying to get people to believe. It's gotten embarrassing at this point and it's not believable in any way. And the fact that Cush has been the poster child for steroids in college for several years and then fails a test makes this whole thing even more ridiculous that people would buy into all these theories that Cush has tried to throw out there. I just hope that these same folks are in the Clemens thread defending him as well.

I'm defending Cush because I believe there's a possibility that he didn't take hCG. There's a possibility that he did.

I've always believed that people were silly for only looking at hitters in baseball when it came to steroids because the players who would get the biggest benefit were the pitchers. And I've always thought Clemens and several other pitchers (even some that don't "look" like steroid users) were taking steroids.

Cush, however, is a different case. He has been tested for steroids many, many times even during his college days, and he's never tested positive. He is known to have an enlarged pituitary gland. There is, in my mind, a slight possibility that he didn't do anything wrong. And because of that and the fact that he's a Texan, I will defend him to my dying breath.

People keep saying things that are absolutely false about him. He didn't test positive for steroids. He didn't test positive for a masking agent. He didn't test positive for a performance enhancing drug. He tested positive for something that is only on the list because bodybuilders used to take it during and/or after their steroid cycles.

People are going to keep calling him a cheater for his entire career and the fact is that the elevated levels he tested positive for don't really constitute any sort of competitive edge.

People keep dogging him for saying things (like the tumor comment) without really even trying to understand why he would say it.

And that irks me.

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2010, 03:49 PM
But if what he was doing got him suspended and he has said he is not changing anything........

Then you have to imagine that there's a possibility that he'll test positive again.

gary
08-19-2010, 03:53 PM
HGC is on the banned list in the NFL if he indeed took it.

badboy
08-19-2010, 03:56 PM
Then you have to imagine that there's a possibility that he'll test positive again.Come on Sharpton!

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2010, 04:00 PM
HGC is on the banned list in the NFL if he indeed took it.

The way the rules are, it doesn't matter if he took it. The rules don't care how the levels got elevated, they just care that they're elevated. If he tests high, then he gets suspended.

He tested high. He gets suspended.

Them's the rules.

But that doesn't mean that you can't argue and get the rules changed. Sometimes, there are bad rules.

infantrycak
08-19-2010, 04:50 PM
OK to clarify the NFL testing process Cloak has gone to great lengths to investigate it and ultimately got it from someone at the NFL's lab. I've held onto it for a while but for clarity:

For perspective normal hcg in a male is considered 0-1 miu/l

A urine sample is taken and then split into A and B specimens on which the A and B tests are run. If the A test is negative the testing is done. If the A test is positive then the player is notified and allowed to have a representative present for the testing of the B specimen by a different technician in the same lab. If the B test if negative then the entire test is considered a negative.

The “A” and “B” tests are not the same test run by different technicians, but test different entities on the HCG. The second test, thus acts as the “confirmatory” test. This is why the validity of the test is accepted by the NFL. This is the exact same protocol used with confidence by The World Anti-Doping Association.

The NFL’s HCG urine test is run using a very accurate method called immuno-assay. This is a test that will be determined as positive at 5 miu/l or higher. The way this test is run is that antibodies, created in the laboratory to attach only to a specific target (antigen), in this case HCG (much like antibodies attach to a bacterial target) is mixed with a person’s urine. The complex that is formed if there is HCG in the urine is then reported if it meets the detection tolerance of the test (in this case 5 miu/l). The NFL first tests the “A” specimen of the split sample. IF it is reported positive, the “B” specimen will be run by the same laboratory, but by another technician. Furthermore, to afford the player added accuracy insurance, a different antibody is used in each of the 2 specimens, differing in the fact that one is “trained” to seek out one specific component (epitome) on the HCG while the other is trained to seek out a separate and distinct specific component on the HCG. After a positive “A” specimen is obtained, if the “B” specimen is negative or questionable (for example, on the cusp of almost being positive), the player is given the benefit of the doubt........and the cumulative testing is considered negative. It should be kept in mind that the lower limits of the “positive” 5 miu/l level is considered well above levels expected in the urine.

So two different tests are used and "barely" failing a test still means levels significantly above normal.

TimeKiller
08-19-2010, 05:01 PM
Exactly. He failed the test and tries to come up with the excuses of possible tumors and then later the infamous overtraining syndrome - give me a break. Cushing needs to sit out these games and then come back clean and with even more intensity than before. This will all be forgotten if he comes back and performs at the levels we have been accustomed to seeing...
I saw the Cush I remember those few snaps last Saturday. So he sits. If anything, he should be super pissed game 5. Like...injure people pissed.

It is not a performance enhancer and is not taken to elevate testosterone above ordinary levels. It is taken to bump start normal testosterone production which has been reduced during a steroid cycle. And as stated above, it is not a masking agent.
If you take enough, would it elevate testosterone?
Do you believe the same thing about Brian Bozworth or Shawn Merriman?
Merriman, as stated was busted for the juice. Then he came out and wasn't lights out anymore, now he's just another guy. Boz I have no idea, I'm 24. :shrug:

Smaller. But hey, I am just being honest here.

See what you want to. The other night I was thinking his guns looked huge, possibly even bigger.

The way the rules are, it doesn't matter if he took it. The rules don't care how the levels got elevated, they just care that they're elevated. If he tests high, then he gets suspended.

He tested high. He gets suspended.

Them's the rules.

But that doesn't mean that you can't argue and get the rules changed. Sometimes, there are bad rules.

Them's the rules then, per Gooddell. Roethlisberger better sit the full 6 or I call shenanigans. I don't care what a rulebook states, rape is worse than Cushing cheating, if that is what really took place.

C Madd
08-19-2010, 05:10 PM
Do you believe the same thing about Brian Bozworth or Shawn Merriman?

Bozworth should have taken more steroids if he did take them. Maybe Bo Jackson wouldn't have ran him over. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLmpjg4UhdE

:)

Brando
08-19-2010, 05:12 PM
Whatever....

Big Ben's 6 game suspension better stay in place too.

Yep!

Texecutioner
08-19-2010, 05:16 PM
And because of that and the fact that he's a Texan, I will defend him to my dying breath.



This is why you and others in here are defending him.

Double Barrel
08-19-2010, 05:33 PM
ahhh, what a bummer. Hopefully our first four games do not depend on Cushing's presence on the field. If we repeat our traditionally slow start under Kubiak, then his absence will be a major thing. But, if we can win 2 or 3 of those games, then getting him back in week 5 will just be a huge upgrade.

God help us if we go 1-3 or 0-4, though, because then we're gripping for the rest of the season, and in our division, that spells doom.

Number19
08-19-2010, 06:14 PM
God, it's about time someone stopped with this nonsense. I'm glad that goodell didn't overturn it either. Cushing tested positive so he should be suspended just like any other player who would have. Amazing how people try to twist this into Cush being some type of victim here. This is his fault and no one else's fault. Hopefully he learns from this and this doesn't ever happen again.If this is a natural occurring medical condition and he tests positive again, I'm curious, what do you think should be done? Should he just hang up his cleats and quit football?

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2010, 06:32 PM
This is why you and others in here are defending him.

And why is that such a bad thing?

The question is, why aren't YOU defending him?

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2010, 06:39 PM
This is why you and others in here are defending him.

But let me elaborate on my first post...

I hate it when people say things that are patently false.

I would defend anyone accused of things that are wrong if I know that they're wrong. If Peyton Manning had tested positive for hCG and people were saying that he tested positive for steroids or masking agents, I would tell them that they're wrong and I would defend him against that because... people are saying things about him that are false. IF I knew they were false.

I'm going to be infinitely more concerned about Cushing because he's a Texan. I'm going to know more about the facts of the case because he's a Texan.

If I had to tell you right now what Merriman tested positive for, I couldn't tell you. I think it was steroids but it might not be. I really don't care about Merriman. I don't care if he used or not and I don't care if he served a suspension. But if I knew that he tested positive for Ephedrine and people were saying he tested positive for steroids, I would correct them because they're wrong.

gary
08-19-2010, 06:41 PM
See what you want to. The other night I was thinking his guns looked huge, possibly even bigger.No way, he was on national T.V. with me last year and I know what I saw.

drs23
08-19-2010, 06:59 PM
No way, he was on national T.V. with me last year and I know what I saw.

That's cool. Ya saw what ya saw. The quote in a prior post states he weighed in +16lbs this year. That's gotta be somewhere. I'm sure it's TV, but he sure comes across big and well defined on an HD big screen. Just sayin.

ledzeppelin229
08-19-2010, 07:03 PM
Does anyone remember a blurb from somewhere that the NFL sends a letter to players when they test high that it could be tumor related? I seem to remember hearing it but can't recall where. Might have been on Sportscenter a few days ago. If so, then that should answer the "tumors" question.

gary
08-19-2010, 07:13 PM
No way, he was on national T.V. with me last year and I know what I saw.

That's cool. Ya saw what ya saw. The quote in a prior post states he weighed in +16lbs this year. That's gotta be somewhere. I'm sure it's TV, but he sure comes across big and well defined on an HD big screen. Just sayin.A person gaining pounds means his arms and shoulders are the same size? Just asking.

drs23
08-19-2010, 07:32 PM
[QUOTE=drs23;1498754]A person gaining pounds means his arms and shoulders are the same size? Just asking.

Not at all. There are others here much more qualified to discuss whether Cush should look smaller in certain body mass after having worked out like he did during the off season, which is well documented. I just *think* he looks bigger is playing faster and hitting harder than he did last year. JMHO :worldpeace:

gary
08-19-2010, 07:45 PM
[QUOTE=gary;1498762]

Not at all. There are others here much more qualified to discuss whether Cush should look smaller in certain body mass after having worked out like he did during the off season, which is well documented. I just *think* he looks bigger is playing faster and hitting harder than he did last year. JMHO :worldpeace:Maybe the workouts are the reason for the change I haven't ever given a reason because I am not sure. I have just seen him with my eyes and think a change is present for this or that reason you don't not need a degree to make an observation. Do you? If the workouts are helping him that is fine by me.

Brisco_County
08-19-2010, 07:58 PM
A person gaining pounds means his arms and shoulders are the same size? Just asking.

Speaking from personal experience, I've done body building type weight training and I've done MMA training. For a year I did both at the same time. The high repetition movements of boxing drills plus the overall cardio work can reduce an athlete's muscle mass, especially in the shoulders. The muscle tends to lose some slow-twitch fiber strength, leading to a reduction in the max weight being lifted, which leads to a reduction of muscle size. It's also common for body builders to lose size when they haven't done any weight training in a few weeks.

One of the semi-pro boxers from my class told me early on to be careful when I benched, because he almost injured himself when not accounting for the loss of slow-twitch fiber strength.

gary
08-19-2010, 08:11 PM
Speaking from personal experience, I've done body building type weight training and I've done MMA training. For a year I did both at the same time. The high repetition movements of boxing drills plus the overall cardio work can reduce an athlete's upper body size. They tend to lose some slow-twitch fiber strength, leading to a reduction in the max weight they're lifting, which leads to a reduction of muscle size. It's common for body builders to lose size when they haven't worked weight trained in a few weeks.

One of the semi-pro boxers from my class told me early on to be careful when I benched, because he almost injured himself when not accounting for the loss of slow-twitch fiber strength.I have not ever given a reason you might be right and that is fine with me. If you are right then great all I am saying is a change appeared to be present that is all. I understand your point and know what you mean. I am not saying he is smaller because he is on or off any PDE's just saying saying that he appears to be for whatever the reason might be.

Brisco_County
08-19-2010, 10:13 PM
I have not ever given a reason you might be right and that is fine with me.

I hear ya, but it's good for everyone to know these things since Cushing's going to be under a lot of scrutiny for a while.

infantrycak
08-19-2010, 11:19 PM
If you take enough, would it elevate testosterone?

No. It's a stimulate to normal not a stimulate to elevate mechanism.

Brisco_County
08-20-2010, 12:12 AM
It is not a performance enhancer and is not taken to elevate testosterone above ordinary levels. It is taken to bump start normal testosterone production which has been reduced during a steroid cycle. And as stated above, it is not a masking agent.

For a second I thought people were going to start arguing that it can be used as a PED, and I'm not qualified to debate these things. It's bad enough that the media keeps calling it a masking agent.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 12:24 AM
Maybe the workouts are the reason for the change I haven't ever given a reason because I am not sure. I have just seen him with my eyes and think a change is present for this or that reason you don't not need a degree to make an observation. Do you? If the workouts are helping him that is fine by me.

Judging size by eyeball can be... deceptive. Lots of times guys gain mass and get smoother. And because they look smoother, they may appear smaller just because they look less... fearsome. You don't have the veins popping out and the muscles clearly defined.

If you gain mass and gain fat so that your BF% goes up, then it's because you've added some fat and it makes you look smoother. But some people who use creatine say they can lose definition as well.

And then there's the type of workout that you're doing. Different workouts will cause you to look different. For example, if you start concentrating on your lower body with heavy weights but do a routine that's more MMA oriented for your upper body, you could gain mass in your lower body and lose definition in your upper body and would appear "smaller" because people usually gauge size based on chest and shoulders and not legs and butt.

There's just a bunch of different variables in play. His appearing smaller could indicate lots of different things... including that he ate something that caused him to bloat and smooth out. Bodybuilders have to be extremely careful with their diet around competition time because something as crazy as some excess salt can cause them to look smoother.

gary
08-20-2010, 10:33 AM
The change might be there due to a whole list of reasons and I completely understand that. Are we ever going to know for sure without ever being around him all day? Certainly not. Why the media contines to report hgc is a masking for PED's makes me mad if that is plain false JMO.

thunderkyss
08-20-2010, 10:47 AM
God, it's about time someone stopped with this nonsense. I'm glad that goodell didn't overturn it either. Cushing tested positive so he should be suspended just like any other player who would have. Amazing how people try to twist this into Cush being some type of victim here. This is his fault and no one else's fault. Hopefully he learns from this and this doesn't ever happen again.

I don't know if I would go that far. I also don't think I would have gone public with that Overtraining thing either. But that is a different story.

On another slightly related note, I don't believe the Commish should be getting involved on this level anyway. The commish's interface should be the team, not the player. If a player screws up, it should be up to the team to discipline that player. If the league isn't happy with the way some teams discipline their players, then the league should discipline the team.

It should have been the Texans testing it's players, it should have been the Texans notifying the league of the infraction, and it should have been the Texans punishing Cushing. There is no reason the Texans should have been out of the loop on this.

The league can set rules, standards the teams should follow, and audit to ensure compliance.

To me, it's just like being in the Navy, or working for a large Fortune 500 company. The Navy sets rules & held my command accountable. My command held my division leader accountable. My division leader held my section leader accountable, and he held me accountable.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 11:05 AM
I don't know if I would go that far. I also don't think I would have gone public with that Overtraining thing either. But that is a different story.

On another slightly related note, I don't believe the Commish should be getting involved on this level anyway. The commish's interface should be the team, not the player. If a player screws up, it should be up to the team to discipline that player. If the league isn't happy with the way some teams discipline their players, then the league should discipline the team.

It should have been the Texans testing it's players, it should have been the Texans notifying the league of the infraction, and it should have been the Texans punishing Cushing. There is no reason the Texans should have been out of the loop on this.

The league can set rules, standards the teams should follow, and audit to ensure compliance.

To me, it's just like being in the Navy, or working for a large Fortune 500 company. The Navy sets rules & held my command accountable. My command held my division leader accountable. My division leader held my section leader accountable, and he held me accountable.

The problem here is that the League doesn't trust the teams to test the players. They want to remove the teams from the chain of command because the teams have an incentive to have their players test clean. So the teams and owners aren't even notified of the initial positives; from my understanding, the teams and owners aren't notified until the appeal is lost or something like that.

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 11:19 AM
I don't know if I would go that far. I also don't think I would have gone public with that Overtraining thing either. But that is a different story.

On another slightly related note, I don't believe the Commish should be getting involved on this level anyway. The commish's interface should be the team, not the player. If a player screws up, it should be up to the team to discipline that player. If the league isn't happy with the way some teams discipline their players, then the league should discipline the team.

It should have been the Texans testing it's players, it should have been the Texans notifying the league of the infraction, and it should have been the Texans punishing Cushing. There is no reason the Texans should have been out of the loop on this.

The league can set rules, standards the teams should follow, and audit to ensure compliance.

To me, it's just like being in the Navy, or working for a large Fortune 500 company. The Navy sets rules & held my command accountable. My command held my division leader accountable. My division leader held my section leader accountable, and he held me accountable.

In a perfect world, I would agree. But there would be so many variables when testing and with other steps of the policy, if put in the hands of the individual teams. And auditing the teams would be nearly impossible. There would probably wide-spread monkey business and book cooking.

b0ng
08-20-2010, 11:20 AM
I don't know if I would go that far. I also don't think I would have gone public with that Overtraining thing either. But that is a different story.

On another slightly related note, I don't believe the Commish should be getting involved on this level anyway. The commish's interface should be the team, not the player. If a player screws up, it should be up to the team to discipline that player. If the league isn't happy with the way some teams discipline their players, then the league should discipline the team.

It should have been the Texans testing it's players, it should have been the Texans notifying the league of the infraction, and it should have been the Texans punishing Cushing. There is no reason the Texans should have been out of the loop on this.

The league can set rules, standards the teams should follow, and audit to ensure compliance.

To me, it's just like being in the Navy, or working for a large Fortune 500 company. The Navy sets rules & held my command accountable. My command held my division leader accountable. My division leader held my section leader accountable, and he held me accountable.

Having teams test their own players and lay out their own punishments just screams Conflict of Interest to me.

Texecutioner
08-20-2010, 12:14 PM
And why is that such a bad thing?

The question is, why aren't YOU defending him?

What do you mean, why am I not defending him? I'm not defending him because he clearly was taking banned substances, and I could give a **** less if he's a Houston Texan. I'm not one of these homers in here that defends everything a guy does because he's a Houston Texan like some of the others do in here and I think it's pathetic that anyone would defend PED's in a sport like football where players are hitting each other at full speed with a huge impact where players can get severely hurt. I care a hell of a lot more about the integrity of the game and the sport than I do about one player on the Texans that chose to go outside of the rules. The fact is Cush hurt the team, because he's not going to be playing for 4 games. Instead of acting like he's some little victim just because he wears a bull on his helmet is pathetic. And if he was a Titan or some Cowboys player there is no doubt in my mind that he'd be bashed relentlessly, and not one person in here would be buying phoney story of his. Now Cushing is still my favorite player on the team along with Andre Johnson, but I won't sit here and defend him when he chose to break the rules. That's ridiculous and irresponsible.

Brisco_County
08-20-2010, 12:41 PM
I don't know if I would go that far. I also don't think I would have gone public with that Overtraining thing either. But that is a different story.

On another slightly related note, I don't believe the Commish should be getting involved on this level anyway. The commish's interface should be the team, not the player. If a player screws up, it should be up to the team to discipline that player. If the league isn't happy with the way some teams discipline their players, then the league should discipline the team.

It should have been the Texans testing it's players, it should have been the Texans notifying the league of the infraction, and it should have been the Texans punishing Cushing. There is no reason the Texans should have been out of the loop on this.

The league can set rules, standards the teams should follow, and audit to ensure compliance.

To me, it's just like being in the Navy, or working for a large Fortune 500 company. The Navy sets rules & held my command accountable. My command held my division leader accountable. My division leader held my section leader accountable, and he held me accountable.

This isn't like states' rights vs. federal power, or order empowered through a chain of command. This would be a conflict of interest because teams have no incentive to bust their own guys, but they have every incentive to encourage them to be competitively advantaged. A team-imposed steroid test would be the same as a Venezuelan election-- staged.

The NFL doesn't have total neutrality in the matter either, but they have enough vested interest in PR to be trusted to oversee it. Today's NFL is highly trustworthy, especially if you contrast it with the NBA.

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 12:59 PM
What do you mean, why am I not defending him? I'm not defending him because he clearly was taking banned substances, and I could give a **** less if he's a Houston Texan. I'm not one of these homers in here that defends everything a guy does because he's a Houston Texan like some of the others do in here and I think it's pathetic that anyone would defend PED's in a sport like football where players are hitting each other at full speed with a huge impact where players can get severely hurt. I care a hell of a lot more about the integrity of the game and the sport than I do about one player on the Texans that chose to go outside of the rules. The fact is Cush hurt the team, because he's not going to be playing for 4 games. Instead of acting like he's some little victim just because he wears a bull on his helmet is pathetic. And if he was a Titan or some Cowboys player there is no doubt in my mind that he'd be bashed relentlessly, and not one person in here would be buying phoney story of his. Now Cushing is still my favorite player on the team along with Andre Johnson, but I won't sit here and defend him when he chose to break the rules. That's ridiculous and irresponsible.

If you go to virtually any other teams' message boards or comment section of articles on Cushing (outside of Houston), they have been merciless and emasculating of Cushing.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 01:01 PM
What do you mean, why am I not defending him? I'm not defending him because he clearly was taking banned substances, and I could give a **** less if he's a Houston Texan. I'm not one of these homers in here that defends everything a guy does because he's a Houston Texan like some of the others do in here and I think it's pathetic that anyone would defend PED's in a sport like football where players are hitting each other at full speed with a huge impact where players can get severely hurt. I care a hell of a lot more about the integrity of the game and the sport than I do about one player on the Texans that chose to go outside of the rules. The fact is Cush hurt the team, because he's not going to be playing for 4 games. Instead of acting like he's some little victim just because he wears a bull on his helmet is pathetic. And if he was a Titan or some Cowboys player there is no doubt in my mind that he'd be bashed relentlessly, and not one person in here would be buying phoney story of his. Now Cushing is still my favorite player on the team along with Andre Johnson, but I won't sit here and defend him when he chose to break the rules. That's ridiculous and irresponsible.

So. Instead of defending him or at least trying to figure out what really happened, you propogate the same lies that other people are saying.

Grid
08-20-2010, 01:58 PM
What do you mean, why am I not defending him? I'm not defending him because he clearly was taking banned substances, and I could give a **** less if he's a Houston Texan. I'm not one of these homers in here that defends everything a guy does because he's a Houston Texan like some of the others do in here and I think it's pathetic that anyone would defend PED's in a sport like football where players are hitting each other at full speed with a huge impact where players can get severely hurt.

The banned substance in his system wasnt a PED. He gained nothing, performance wise, from having it in his system. It is only on the banned substance list because of its use as a masking agent. The issue is that he says he wasnt masking anything and that it was in his system for non-PED reasons. We dont know those reasons.. but apparently Mr. McNair does and he found it compelling enough to go to the NFL and appeal the suspension in person.

I care a hell of a lot more about the integrity of the game and the sport than I do about one player on the Texans that chose to go outside of the rules.

You are making the assumption that he CHOSE to go outside the rules and did not accidentally do so. Basically you are saying that you dont believe his story, that he is lying through his teeth and you have chosen to believe what the mass media is pushing over what cushing, mcnair, and the other "homers" believe. Thats why people are mad.. because you are "supposedly" a Texans fan.. but rather than trust the Texans, you are taking the side of the slanderers.

The fact is Cush hurt the team, because he's not going to be playing for 4 games. Instead of acting like he's some little victim just because he wears a bull on his helmet is pathetic. And if he was a Titan or some Cowboys player there is no doubt in my mind that he'd be bashed relentlessly, and not one person in here would be buying phoney story of his.

Why is it a phony story? How do you know this? I can understand being mad cause he hurt the team.. that is perfectly understandable. He should be knowing what is going on with his body at all times, and if there is some substance he took that unknowingly put the banned substance in his system, then he is completely at fault for our current predicament. However, that doesnt mean he cheated.

If there is some health reason for the elevated levels in his system... well, now he should be aware of it and should be taking measures to control it in the future. So this shouldnt ever happen again. If it does, then Ill be REALLY mad at him.

Now Cushing is still my favorite player on the team along with Andre Johnson, but I won't sit here and defend him when he chose to break the rules. That's ridiculous and irresponsible.

Why? That makes no sense. You are just as close minded and ignorant of the facts as all of the homers that you claim are defending him with no evidence. And you are jumping to illogical conclusions just like them.

Anyone who claims to have a definitive answer as to why Cushing had the substance in his system is an *****. No one knows for sure except Cushing and anyone that he has personally told.

Any intelligent person capable of weighing the information available to the public and coming to a sound conclusion should be realizing at this point that we cannot say one way or the other what REALLY happened. And because there is no definitive answer, I would expect that all Texans fans would lean more towards the side of Cushing than they would the side of the national media and our opponents.

If you dont support Cushing.. then im forced to wonder if you are a REAL Texans fan, or just an *****. Because really.. there is enough circumstantial evidence to support either side. So why didnt you choose the Texans'?

Number19
08-20-2010, 02:19 PM
...I'm not defending him because he clearly was taking banned substances...There is no proof of this. The tests, over a 3 month period, showed elevated levels of hCG; they cannot, and do not, show whether this level of the hormone is artificial or natural.

The single point that I zero in on is the fact that he tested positive with elevated levels as early as September, was put on notice by the league office, but then tested above allowed levels two months later in November.

There has been no explanation for this - what I would call stupid - behavior.

In today's Chronicle, Roger Clemons' lawyer is quoted : "...everybody has said accurately that if he did it, what he should have done is to admit it and move on. And that's absolutely right. The problem is nobody ever talks about what he should have done if he didn't do it...".

This is precisely the position I take on Cushing. The facts just do not add up sufficiently to not give Cushing the benefit of the doubt. Too much effort and expense has been expended - which is not typical of guilty behavior.

We do not have all the medical facts, but it does seem, at this point, that Cushing's best course of action forward is to wait out the suspension and then get back to football. Perhaps, with medical advice, he might alter his workout regime to lessen the chances of this occurring again, but be forewarned, it may not be over if it is a natural occurring medical problem.

Number19
08-20-2010, 02:24 PM
...If there is some health reason for the elevated levels in his system... well, now he should be aware of it and should be taking measures to control it in the future. So this shouldnt ever happen again. If it does, then Ill be REALLY mad at him...Now this I find interesting. Perhaps when things die down - maybe after the season - Cushing could be asked what advice/ medical advice he was given on this and what he may be doing to mitigate a reoccurrence.

Texecutioner
08-20-2010, 02:31 PM
The banned substance in his system wasnt a PED. He gained nothing, performance wise, from having it in his system. It is only on the banned substance list because of its use as a masking agent. The issue is that he says he wasnt masking anything and that it was in his system for non-PED reasons. We dont know those reasons.. but apparently Mr. McNair does and he found it compelling enough to go to the NFL and appeal the suspension in person.



You are making the assumption that he CHOSE to go outside the rules and did not accidentally do so. Basically you are saying that you dont believe his story, that he is lying through his teeth and you have chosen to believe what the mass media is pushing over what cushing, mcnair, and the other "homers" believe. Thats why people are mad.. because you are "supposedly" a Texans fan.. but rather than trust the Texans, you are taking the side of the slanderers.



Why is it a phony story? How do you know this? I can understand being mad cause he hurt the team.. that is perfectly understandable. He should be knowing what is going on with his body at all times, and if there is some substance he took that unknowingly put the banned substance in his system, then he is completely at fault for our current predicament. However, that doesnt mean he cheated.

If there is some health reason for the elevated levels in his system... well, now he should be aware of it and should be taking measures to control it in the future. So this shouldnt ever happen again. If it does, then Ill be REALLY mad at him.



Why? That makes no sense. You are just as close minded and ignorant of the facts as all of the homers that you claim are defending him with no evidence. And you are jumping to illogical conclusions just like them.

Anyone who claims to have a definitive answer as to why Cushing had the substance in his system is an *****. No one knows for sure except Cushing and anyone that he has personally told.

Any intelligent person capable of weighing the information available to the public and coming to a sound conclusion should be realizing at this point that we cannot say one way or the other what REALLY happened. And because there is no definitive answer, I would expect that all Texans fans would lean more towards the side of Cushing than they would the side of the national media and our opponents.

If you dont support Cushing.. then im forced to wonder if you are a REAL Texans fan, or just an *****. Because really.. there is enough circumstantial evidence to support either side. So why didnt you choose the Texans'?

Dude, wake up. He tested positive. I'd like to hear you make this same ridiculous stance for Manny Ramirez. Lol! Oh, but that's right he's not a Texan so that doesn't apply.

And just stop it with the slanderers and stuff like that. No one has been out to get Cush. He's been a beloved player that got all kinds of praise for how he played. No one has slandered him, and that's about the most foolish thing I've heard yet. The slanderers. Lol!

And then you really fall right on your face at the end of this with the typical homerish "are you really a fan" card. I'll criticize a Texan just like I will a guy on the Titans, Eagles, or the Raiders or any other NFL team. I won't blow something off and close my eyes and ears to facts because a guy plays for my team. That's childish and it's irresponsible. If you're testing positive for steroids, masking agents, or any other banned substance you're breaking the rules and if you did it by accident then shame on you for being that stupid at this point knowing the consequences and seeing all of these other athletes be put to shame and catch strong suspensions. And I don't believe for one second a work out freak of all people like Cush doesn't know what he's putting in his body when he's been a gym rat for years. The guy is practically an expert himself on this stuff. Do you honestly think that the NFL doesn't have high paid doctors and scientists that don't look at these kinds of cases and research this stuff? Sorry, but I care about the integrity of the sport and the game far more than I do about one player who decided to break the rules. I don't want the NFL to turn into what happened with baseball, and they're doing a pretty damn good job to make sure that doesn't happen and good for them. Pretty selfish of you as fan to want Cush to get off of this just because he's a Texan. And to try and call me out because I don't buy this crock of **** that he's shoveling up, man get the hell out of here.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 02:31 PM
The banned substance in his system wasnt a PED. He gained nothing, performance wise, from having it in his system. It is only on the banned substance list because of its use as a masking agent. The issue is that he says he wasnt masking anything and that it was in his system for non-PED reasons. We dont know those reasons.. but apparently Mr. McNair does and he found it compelling enough to go to the NFL and appeal the suspension in person.

You're right that it's not a PED.

But...

hCG is NOT a masking agent.

IF Cush used it, it was probably as a weight loss supplement to minimize muscle loss while dieting. He could also possibly have been using it after a steroid cycle to get his gonads working again, but that's a very slim possibility.

But it's not a PED and it's not a masking agent. It is, however, a Schedule III drug and on the list of banned substances to have in your body above a certain level.

Number19
08-20-2010, 02:41 PM
You're right that it's not a PED.

But...

hCG is NOT a masking agent.

IF Cush used it, it was probably as a weight loss supplement to minimize muscle loss while dieting. He could also possibly have been using it after a steroid cycle to get his gonads working again, but that's a very slim possibility.

But it's not a PED and it's not a masking agent. It is, however, a Schedule III drug and on the list of banned substances to have in your body above a certain level.The constant misuse of words and definitions is what I really find irritating, particularly by those in the news media who should know better. This is a form of lying and in my mind this is a clear indication of ulterior motives.

Grid
08-20-2010, 03:14 PM
Dude, wake up. He tested positive.[quote]

So I can tell that you fall into the ***** column already. You still seem to be incapable of acknowledging the facts, and im not going to repeat them all for you.


[quote]And just stop it with the slanderers and stuff like that. No one has been out to get Cush. He's been a beloved player that got all kinds of praise for how he played. No one has slandered him, and that's about the most foolish thing I've heard yet. The slanderers. Lol!

Slander is defined as a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report

you said:

I'm not defending him because he clearly was taking banned substances

Which is untrue. It is malicious and false. Others call him a cheater, among other things, all of which is unprovable and has evidence to the contrary.

That is slander. You have come to the conclusion, despite a lack of evidence supporting it, that Cushing took PEDs..and you are trying to imply that that information is factual. That is slander.

At least I think it is :D..it might just be *********gery. Either way its lame, and ignorant.



And then you really fall right on your face at the end of this with the typical homerish "are you really a fan" card. I'll criticize a Texan just like I will a guy on the Titans, Eagles, or the Raiders or any other NFL team. I won't blow something off and close my eyes and ears to facts because a guy plays for my team.

What facts? That he had a test that showed a trace of HCG in his system? That is the only fact you have.

That's childish and it's irresponsible. If you're testing positive for steroids, masking agents, or any other banned substance you're breaking the rules

That is a very simplistic (see: unintelligent) way of looking at it. I know you want it to be black and white, but it isnt.

For one.. is it breaking the rules? Yes it is breaking the rules. Just as it is breaking the rules for someone to wear the number of another player on their jersey as a sign of respect/honor.

What is the similarity? Neither one has any effect on the players performance. You are implying with your comments that Cushing somehow cheated. He didnt.. or at least there is little evidence to support that.

There is circumstantial evidence in that HCG is (as Pencil Neck corrected me on) is used to balance your **** out so your balls do turn into raisins when taking steroids.

However there is also a plethora of similarly circumstantial evidence that it could have shown up on a test for a number of other reasons that DONT involve PEDs.

You are choosing to believe that he cheated.. for no other reason than because you wish to do so. That is the stance that I would expect from a NON-Texans fan.. or someone who does not have an investment in the player and is therefore ignorant of anything except the most basic facts.


and if you did it by accident then shame on you for being that stupid at this point knowing the consequences and seeing all of these other athletes be put to shame and catch strong suspensions. And I don't believe for one second a work out freak of all people like Cush doesn't know what he's putting in his body when he's been a gym rat for years. The guy is practically an expert himself on this stuff.

You are making more baseless assumptions. I suppose that yes, Cushing could wake up every day and get a drug test. But is that really what it has to come down to? Isnt that being a little bit too strict? It should be enough for a player to know what he is putting in his body, what effect it will have on him, and whether or not it is legal. If Cushing failed his test because of a mishap like that...then yes, shame on him. But if there is some OTHER reason, some unforeseen reaction that his body had to something he did, or took, then I really cant find a good reason to blame him for that.

I do however expect him to be aware of why it happened so that he can prevent it from happening again.

Do you honestly think that the NFL doesn't have high paid doctors and scientists that don't look at these kinds of cases and research this stuff?

Id say that yes they probably do. That does not immediately prove that he is guilty of anything other than having HCG in his system though.

Sorry, but I care about the integrity of the sport and the game far more than I do about one player who decided to break the rules. I don't want the NFL to turn into what happened with baseball, and they're doing a pretty damn good job to make sure that doesn't happen and good for them. Pretty selfish of you as fan to want Cush to get off of this just because he's a Texan. And to try and call me out because I don't buy this crock of **** that he's shoveling up, man get the hell out of here.

Actually, i never said I wanted cushing to "get off of this". I said that I support Cushing, but I dont know all the facts.

I cannot say that I want Cushing to not be suspended because I dont know what evidence they have to support him. It wasnt made public knowledge.

This is what ive been trying to get across to you. I dont have a solid conclusion on this.. there is too much vague information, and too many possibilities that support both stances.

In the end all we know for sure is that cushing had HCG in his system, and unfortunately the NFL has that as a banned substance. So I cant rightfully say that he shouldnt be suspended for the 4 games, because he DID break the rules.

Is that rule fair though? I dont know.. It would depend on just how much HCG he had in his system, and what the medical possibilities are for that HCG to be present. Is he getting the suspension because he is suspected of cheating? Or have they ruled out that he is cheating but upheld the suspension because he still broke the rules? Is it still inconclusive but they upheld the suspension because they couldnt back down when there is no unquestionable evidence to the contrary?

We really dont know... thats why when someone takes a firm stance for one party or the other, they are either ignorant, or stupid.

You keep talking about the integrity of the sport.. and I agree that it is important that the integrity of the sport be protected. Thats why I am not vehemently disagreeing with the suspension. I feel like if this was in a court of law, there would be enough questionable doubt that he should be found innocent. But this isnt a court of law its the NFL, and they have to be strict in their rules if they are going to maintain that integrity.

How about the integrity of the fans? Isnt it kind of our job, as fans.. to support our team? And as supporters of our team, isnt it our job to familiarize ourselves with them? As fans... dont we need to be RELUCTANT to throw our players/team under the bus at the drop of the hat? Before insulting/slandering/disavowing our guys... shouldnt we, as fans, be diligent in getting all the facts, and having a solid reason for doing so? A reason that is built on factual information? Isnt that kind of important too? Having integrity as a fan...

gtexan02
08-20-2010, 03:31 PM
What facts? That he had a test that showed a trace of HCG in his system? That is the only fact you have.



Just wanted to clarify this. He didn't have a trace amount in his system. His test came back positive, twice (meaning the A and B sample) at a level AT LEAST 5 times the normal amount. Read icak and CnDs excellent posts clarifying the NFL testing procedures

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 03:41 PM
You're right that it's not a PED.

But...

hCG is NOT a masking agent.

IF Cush used it, it was probably as a weight loss supplement to minimize muscle loss while dieting. He could also possibly have been using it after a steroid cycle to get his gonads working again, but that's a very slim possibility.

But it's not a PED and it's not a masking agent. It is, however, a Schedule III drug and on the list of banned substances to have in your body above a certain level.

The "HCG diet" espoused by Dr. Simeon involves daily injections. However, this is in addition to a semi-starvation extremely restricted 500 calorie diet in order to work. Simeon claims that it will "comfortably" burn fat, redistribute the wealth, I mean the fat, and decrease appetite while preserving muscle.

This is the 2009 position statement issued by American Society of Bariatric Physicians:

Numerous [controlled] clinical trials have shown HCG to be ineffectual in producing weight loss. HCG injections can induce a slight increase in muscle mass only in androgen-deficient males. The diet used in the Simeons method provides a lower protein intake than is advisable in view of current knowledge and practice. There are few medical literature reports favorable to the Simeons method; the overwhelming majority of medical reports are critical of it. Physicians employing either the HCG or the diet recommended by Simeons may expose themselves to criticism from other physicians, from insurers, or from government bodies.

A 500 calorie diet is more than restrictive – it can hardly be considered either a “safe” or “practical” approach to weight loss to begin with (the minimum “safe” caloric limit is around 800-1200 calories, depending on a few factors.......and that is for a limited period of time).

Additionally, a large percentage of weight loss (with or without the introduction of HCG) will be comprised of muscle mass. This is not desirable, since muscle is metabolically active tissue and contributes to an elevated metabolism. This makes it more likely the weight will come back faster than ever when you go off this diet… which you must at some point.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 03:50 PM
Thats why I am not vehemently disagreeing with the suspension.

This is an important thing, I think.

I don't disagree with the suspension. Cush had hCG levels that were high and by the rules of the NFL, if you have certain levels of certain things that are too high, then you get suspended. Cush's levels were too high and therefore, he should be suspended.

What I don't like is people bashing Cushing for being a liar and a cheat when there's a possibility that he's not either of those things. I really, really hate people saying that he took things (like steroids and PEDs and masking agents) that he did not take.

And since I don't see any major benefit in using hCG that's going to improve his performance, I don't see this as cheating. I think that the ban on hCG is silly but I also think that banning things like ephedrine is silly (and that actually does boost performance slightly). Call me crazy.

If he DOES have an abnormally high baseline hCG, then he's in danger of testing positive again.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 03:54 PM
The "HCG diet" espoused by Dr. Simeon involves daily injections. However, this is in addition to a semi-starvation extremely restricted 500 calorie diet in order to work. Simeon claims that it will "comfortably" burn fat, redistribute the wealth, I mean the fat, and decrease appetite while preserving muscle.

This is the 2009 position statement issued by American Society of Bariatric Physicians:



A 500 calorie diet is more than restrictive – it can hardly be considered either a “safe” or “practical” approach to weight loss to begin with (the minimum “safe” caloric limit is around 800-1200 calories, depending on a few factors.......and that is for a limited period of time).

Additionally, a large percentage of weight loss (with or without the introduction of HCG) will be comprised of muscle mass. This is not desirable, since muscle is metabolically active tissue and contributes to an elevated metabolism. This makes it more likely the weight will come back faster than ever when you go off this diet… which you must at some point.

Yes. I'm aware that the diet that was used originally was a VLCD but you know how athletes are. Someone sees something like this and they jump to the conclusion that if the hCG is minimizing muscle loss on THIS diet then the hCG will minimize muscle loss on ANY diet.

There are people out there from what I hear experimenting with this.

There are also people experimenting with using herbal stuff to try to boost their hCG levels for this same reason. This stuff probably doesn't work at all.

Double Barrel
08-20-2010, 04:11 PM
Will Cushing and/or the Texans ever provide us, the fans/customers, any legitimate details to back up the claims made by them up to this point?

Because the 'other side', those that are pointing a finger at Cushing and upholding his four game suspension, have an overwhelming amount of scientific and medical evidence to clearly support their position.

And this is what brings me to Occam's razor - he principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".

We have so much valid information shining light on one side of this story and the details about this particular substance as it relates to being elevated in the male body.

Yet, in Cushing's defense, we have...some vague statements, supported by....nothing credible. Not one medical professional or scientist has yet to put their reputation on the line in support of Cushing's explanations.

I'm not out to witch hunt the player or organization. I'm not painting a picture of anything other than what we know at this point. But it takes a massive leap in logic to see Cushing's side of things right now. I know, because I keep trying to do it.

Number19
08-20-2010, 04:26 PM
Will Cushing and/or the Texans ever provide us, the fans/customers, any legitimate details to back up the claims made by them up to this point?

Because the 'other side', those that are pointing a finger at Cushing and upholding his four game suspension, have an overwhelming amount of scientific and medical evidence to clearly support their position.

And this is what brings me to Occam's razor - he principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".

We have so much valid information shining light on one side of this story and the details about this particular substance as it relates to being elevated in the male body.

Yet, in Cushing's defense, we have...some vague statements, supported by....nothing credible. Not one medical professional or scientist has yet to put their reputation on the line in support of Cushing's explanations.

I'm not out to witch hunt the player or organization. I'm not painting a picture of anything other than what we know at this point. But it takes a massive leap in logic to see Cushing's side of things right now. I know, because I keep trying to do it.I'm just shooting blanks here, but what do we know: 1) Cushing has stuck to his guns this past off season with medical testing by an unknown expert, or experts. 2) This testing was known to McNair and the results were sufficiently positive in his opinion for him to put his neck in the noose.

I would think it appropriate that at some point in the future, after this season wraps up, someone with cred approach McNair and Cushing for a more detailed explanation of all that has happened.

gary
08-20-2010, 05:14 PM
I am happy to know what he really took but at the end of the day the bottom line is it is on the banned substance list and has now cost him some games so I hope he learns and never does it again. Am I right or wrong?

THE NFL
08-20-2010, 05:16 PM
Keep in mind that Roger Clemens has stuck to his guns as well. That doesnt mean he isnt lying. McNair wants to believe him. But he looks foolish doing so.

I hear what you guys are saying when you defend Cushing, but where is the proof? The proof he did it is in the test. Where is the proof he didnt. Why arent they releasing that info and let public perception put pressure on the NFL? Why? Why are they being so secret about it?

The only known facts are that Cushing had elevated levels of a banned substance in his system. Cushing has no realistic explanation for how it got there.

I know you guys want to believe him. But based on what? Just being a Texan ISNT good enough.

Cushing and McNair have created a slippery slope here now. There is a reason no Owner in the history of the NFL has ever done that. It just isnt done. McNair should have stayed out of it.

Number19
08-20-2010, 05:42 PM
Alan Wayne Porter was just recently released from prison after being incarcerated for 19 years for a crime he did not commit. The reason he was finally released is because for those 19 years he continued to claim his innocence.

If you are innocent, you should never kowtow to your accusers.

Number19
08-20-2010, 05:50 PM
...Why arent they releasing that info and let public perception put pressure on the NFL? Why? Why are they being so secret about it?...We do not know; but what we can surmise with a high degree of certainty is that both McNair and Cushing has had legal advice.

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 06:17 PM
Not releasing all related testing and related medical exams at this point in time would strongly suggest that his “evidence” is clearly lacking the ability to pass unbiased medical peer review. With the claim of “Over Training Syndrome,” he has certainly lost the guise of not wanting to release potentially “embarrassing” information based on his having testicular atrophy or tumors.

His only other even half-way credible explanation for withholding information would be for the purpose of a lawsuit.........to “clear” his name. That route could prove catastrophic to his career. It would entirely distract his time and energy from his “game.” Having reviewed cases for the Texas Medical Board, FDA and for many high profile medical lawsuits, I can tell you that, in the unlikely event that he would win the lawsuit in a court of law, that's all he will have accomplished. [Just like some patients won their silicone gel breast implant lawsuits. But the international medical community has essentially not given validity to the findings, concluding that "there is no credible cause and effect" of silicone gel with ANY disease entity.] He would still not have the validity of peer review of the medical literature or medical community as pertains to the original question at hand.

I'd certainly welcome comments from any of our attorney friends on board.

Number19
08-20-2010, 06:32 PM
Not releasing all related testing and related medical exams at this point in time would strongly suggest that his “evidence” is clearly lacking the ability to pass unbiased medical peer review. With the claim of “Over Training Syndrome,” he has certainly lost the guise of not wanting to release potentially “embarrassing” information based on his having testicular atrophy or tumors.

His only other even half-way credible explanation for withholding information would be for the purpose of a lawsuit.........to “clear” his name. That route could prove catastrophic to his career. It would entirely distract his time and energy from his “game.” Having reviewed cases for the Texas Medical Board, FDA and for many high profile medical lawsuits, I can tell you that, in the unlikely event that he would win the lawsuit in a court of law, that's all he will have accomplished. [Just like some patients won their silicone gel breast implant lawsuits. But the international medical community has essentially not given validity to the findings, concluding that "there is no credible cause and effect" of silicone gel with ANY disease entity.] He would still not have the validity of peer review of the medical literature or medical community as pertains to the original question at hand.

I'd certainly welcome comments from any of our attorney friends on board.There is one more thing you fail to take into account - it's only been 24 hours since the decision. From your posts I surmise you are a bit of an expert in the medical field. I would think if there is to be any kind of a public release involving medical opinion and the reputation of these 3rd party individuals, there is some formality involved. How much time is appropriate, that's a valid question. I suggested after the season concludes. Maybe sooner. If I were McNair, I wouldn't be pressured by "public opinion".

Number19
08-20-2010, 06:53 PM
I don't think a lawsuit would be considered, or likely, at this time of first offense. A lawsuit is more probable with a re-occurrence and suspension.

An appropriate direction for the dialog at this time is what changes this may mean for Cushing's training and what medication, if any, might be required to prevent future problems.

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 07:05 PM
There is one more thing you fail to take into account - it's only been 24 hours since the decision. From your posts I surmise you are a bit of an expert in the medical field. I would think if there is to be any kind of a public release involving medical opinion and the reputation of these 3rd party individuals, there is some formality involved. How much time is appropriate, that's a valid question. I suggested after the season concludes. Maybe sooner. If I were McNair, I wouldn't be pressured by "public opinion".

I never presumed as to when such a release should be made or the wisdom of making that decision at all. My "at this point in time" statement referred to starting at the point of after release of the NFL's final decision.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 07:40 PM
I am happy to know what he really took but at the end of the day the bottom line is it is on the banned substance list and has now cost him some games so I hope he learns and never does it again. Am I right or wrong?

That's just it.

Just because you've got elevated levels of something doesn't mean that you took that something. You may well have taken something else and it could have caused that elevation or you may have some medical condition that caused that elevation. There are a lot of things that this may be.

In Cushing's case, just because he's got elevated hCG levels doesn't mean that he actually took hCG. All we know is that he's got elevated levels of hCG. We don't know how it got that way. In most cases, levels that high mean that you either injected hCG or you've got a tumor of some sort.

Now, the rules don't care how his levels of hCG got elevated and they wrote the rules that way on purpose so someone couldn't defend themselves by saying that someone else snuck it into their food or something.

gary
08-20-2010, 07:46 PM
That's just it.

Just because you've got elevated levels of something doesn't mean that you took that something. You may well have taken something else and it could have caused that elevation or you may have some medical condition that caused that elevation. There are a lot of things that this may be.

In Cushing's case, just because he's got elevated hCG levels doesn't mean that he actually took hCG. All we know is that he's got elevated levels of hCG. We don't know how it got that way. In most cases, levels that high mean that you either injected hCG or you've got a tumor of some sort.

Now, the rules don't care how his levels of hCG got elevated and they wrote the rules that way on purpose so someone couldn't defend themselves by saying that someone else snuck it into their food or something.There have not been any reports of him having a tomor that I know of.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 07:56 PM
Will Cushing and/or the Texans ever provide us, the fans/customers, any legitimate details to back up the claims made by them up to this point?

Because the 'other side', those that are pointing a finger at Cushing and upholding his four game suspension, have an overwhelming amount of scientific and medical evidence to clearly support their position.

And this is what brings me to Occam's razor - he principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".

We have so much valid information shining light on one side of this story and the details about this particular substance as it relates to being elevated in the male body.

Yet, in Cushing's defense, we have...some vague statements, supported by....nothing credible. Not one medical professional or scientist has yet to put their reputation on the line in support of Cushing's explanations.

I'm not out to witch hunt the player or organization. I'm not painting a picture of anything other than what we know at this point. But it takes a massive leap in logic to see Cushing's side of things right now. I know, because I keep trying to do it.

In Cushing's defense, we really don't have much of anything until he releases whatever they had that they thought was evidence. All we have is the knowledge that they thought they (both Cushing and his lawyers and McNair) had some sort of evidence that would clear Cushings name AND that at least one of the NFL doctors thought it was plausible.

Unless they release something (which I doubt they will), all we can do is try to guess what they had and try to figure it out.

Ultimately, to me, the thing that I can't get my head around is WHY. Why would he be taking hCG? None of the reasons he would be taking hCG make any sense.

* To keep his body making natural test. To the best of my knowledge, he would only be doing this if he were doing steroids. BUT, if he were doing steroids, he would have tested positive for them on at least 1 of the tests he was given. So, this makes no sense.

Most steroid users don't use hCG anymore anyway. They use Clomid. So that's another strike against that.

* As a weight loss supplement. Some people have been experimenting with this recently because they think they can minimize muscle loss during dieting. There's no real science to back it up.

I would hope that Cush would be smarter than trying this but who knows.

So, for me, when there's nothing that makes any logical sense, it's hard to believe in it. This doesn't mean that Cush wasn't doing something dumb. He may have been. But that's also why I think this may have been some sort of accidental side effect to something.

I'd love to hear what his defense actually was.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 07:57 PM
There have not been any reports of him having a tomor that I know of.

He does, however, have an enlarged pituitary gland. At least, that's what they said at USC.

Number19
08-20-2010, 08:26 PM
Is it possible for the tests to be different at the lower levels of football than at the professional level? I mean, does the NFL have banned substances (ie hCG ) not tested for previously.

I found this earlier quote from McNair :

"...Brian, what he has said, is he's been taking the same supplements ... for the last 10 or 15 years and he's been checked umpteen times and it hadn't shown up to be any kind of problem," McNair said. "So what happened, I don't know. He doesn't know at this point in time..." http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8180cb8d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

I agree, it doesn't make any logical sense and maybe it was just an accidental side affect of a more stringent NFL testing policy. But you need an explanation before positive corrective action can be taken.

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 08:26 PM
He does, however, have an enlarged pituitary gland. At least, that's what they said at USC.

And, it should be noted, that a small percentage of the population will have a an enlarged pituitary gland on MRI without pathological implication.

gary
08-20-2010, 08:30 PM
He does, however, have an enlarged pituitary gland. At least, that's what they said at USC.It sounds like the NFL should make exceptions to the rule if you can prove that you did not inject or take it.

Grams
08-20-2010, 08:31 PM
When you get right down to it - does it really matter?

He is gone for 4 games.

Whatever it was - hopefully he is smart enough to not let it happen again.

JB
08-20-2010, 08:32 PM
It sounds like the NFL should make exceptions to the rule if you can prove that you did not inject or take it.

How do you prove a negative?

Number19
08-20-2010, 08:36 PM
It sounds like the NFL should make exceptions to the rule if you can prove that you did not inject or take it.This is the point where the federal disabilities act becomes relevant and a lawsuit becomes a possibility.

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 08:38 PM
Is it possible for the tests to be different at the lower levels of football than at the professional level? I mean, does the NFL have banned substances (ie hCG ) not tested for previously.

I found this earlier quote from McNair :

"...Brian, what he has said, is he's been taking the same supplements ... for the last 10 or 15 years and he's been checked umpteen times and it hadn't shown up to be any kind of problem," McNair said. "So what happened, I don't know. He doesn't know at this point in time..." http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8180cb8d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

I agree, it doesn't make any logical sense and maybe it was just an accidental side affect of a more stringent NFL testing policy. But you need an explanation before positive corrective action can be taken.

I'm not sure that many colleges, including USC, have tested for HCG in the past.

gary
08-20-2010, 08:39 PM
I don't know it just sounds pretty flawed all the way around to me.

Number19
08-20-2010, 08:39 PM
How do you prove a negative?This is why Cushing has spent an unknown amount of $ trying to find a medical explanation and as someone suggested a few days ago, maybe establishing a baseline elevation.

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 08:44 PM
This is the point where the federal disabilities act becomes relevant and a lawsuit becomes a possibility.

I think it needs to be kept in mind, that in this context, not only do you have to "legally prove" that it CAN happen, but that is what DID happen in Cushing's case to lead to the NFL's adverse action.

edo783
08-20-2010, 08:57 PM
IMO, Goodell wasn't going to overturn this unless 27 Nobel prize winners stepped up and said it could have happened. It would open a HUGE can of worms that he wouldn't want to be constantly dealing with.

gary
08-20-2010, 08:59 PM
How do you prove a negative?Brian has already been trying to do this via doctors and other experts in the field. If he truely believes what he is saying then it is up to him to find some one who knows all the ins and outs plus all of the flaws. If that is all he feels he has to do then he is not going to be the one to prove anything. But all it takes is just some one else to say hey yhea, this is possible that is all. I hope this came out the right way.

devo-x
08-20-2010, 09:02 PM
I recall hearing a report about a Texans official who supposedly warned Cushing and former Strength and Conditioning Coach Ray Wright about something he was taking that could (and did) produce a positive result - What could he have have been warned about?

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 09:04 PM
How do you prove a negative?

By proving the positive.

Number19
08-20-2010, 09:06 PM
Cushing earned a couple mil last year and is set to do the same this year, even with the suspension. Maybe not enough for a protracted legal battle, but enough to comfortably set himself up for life. After this season he really doesn't need football. But I imagine it would not be easy, for him, to give it up. I really do hope that a lot of this is just smoke and "the problem" is under control and we can look forward to years of pro-bowl caliber line-backing.

gary
08-20-2010, 09:10 PM
If he can get an expert to help prove his case and it seems like there already are some on this MB and he'd also need the NFL to take in the facts which is not likely.

JB
08-20-2010, 09:10 PM
By proving the positive.

Nope! Proving that something happened is easy. How do you prove that nothing did?

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 09:14 PM
Nope! Proving that something happened is easy. How do you prove that nothing did?

Just jacking with you.

JB
08-20-2010, 09:15 PM
Just jacking with you.

It's not fair to jack with old drunks!

gary
08-20-2010, 09:24 PM
Will you ever prove nothing was done on purpose? You may prove that there are other ways of having elevated levels but without being with Cushing all the time you just won't know for sure all you know is what might have happend. Just a thought. Just because everyone knows there are different ways does not mean they know how/why it happend all they know is hey, it's there. You know?

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 09:41 PM
It's not fair to jack with old drunks!

You didn't look like your picture in the avatar the last time I saw you. What did you have done?:shades:

JB
08-20-2010, 09:42 PM
You didn't look like your picture in the avatar the last time I saw you. What did you have done?:shades:

Surrounded myself with friends! :shades:

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 09:54 PM
Is it possible for the tests to be different at the lower levels of football than at the professional level? I mean, does the NFL have banned substances (ie hCG ) not tested for previously.

I found this earlier quote from McNair :

"...Brian, what he has said, is he's been taking the same supplements ... for the last 10 or 15 years and he's been checked umpteen times and it hadn't shown up to be any kind of problem," McNair said. "So what happened, I don't know. He doesn't know at this point in time..." http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8180cb8d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

I agree, it doesn't make any logical sense and maybe it was just an accidental side affect of a more stringent NFL testing policy. But you need an explanation before positive corrective action can be taken.

I'm pretty sure that hCG is a banned substance in the AAU and probably in most athletic unions and I'd be very surprised that the NCAA wasn't testing for it. And I'd be surprised that Cushing hadn't been tested for it before.

From what I've heard, the NFL tightened its testing limits last year and that Cushing would not have tested positive the year before. I don't know how true that is.

But, either way, the hCG in his system is still very, very high. So high that it's almost (not totally, but ALMOST) unthinkable that it's that way naturally.

IF Cushing is telling the truth and doesn't know why he tested positive, he'd be going to a bunch of doctors, getting a bunch of tests done, and trying to figure out what happened so that it doesn't happen again. And from everything I've heard, that's what he's been doing.

If this isn't something he's taking, then it's got to be pretty scary.

If he did take something and he knows what it is, then all he needs to do is stop taking it.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 10:00 PM
I recall hearing a report about a Texans official who supposedly warned Cushing and former Strength and Conditioning Coach Ray Wright about something he was taking that could (and did) produce a positive result - What could he have have been warned about?

There are homeopathic hCG things that you can buy. People are selling all sorts of things on the internet under the guise of hCG... BUT... they probably don't actually do anything to boost hCG and they probably don't actually contain any "real" hCG.

The only "real" way to elevate your hCG that I know about is to inject it. And it's a schedule III drug. It's illegal. So, if they were doing anything, then it would probably be taking small injections of hCG hoping to just get a slight boost or something. (Not that getting a slight boost of hCG actually does anything to help with performance that anyone knows of.)

That doesn't mean there aren't other ways I don't know about.

Number19
08-20-2010, 10:06 PM
...If this isn't something he's taking, then it's got to be pretty scary.

If he did take something and he knows what it is, then all he needs to do is stop taking it.And this is precisely the point I've been hammering on. He tested positive in September, but not a double positive, and was put on notice. If he knew anything at that point he should have stopped then. Why did he test a double positive in November?

JB
08-20-2010, 10:07 PM
And this is precisely the point I've been hammering on. He tested positive in September, but not a double positive, and was put on notice. If he knew anything at that point he should have stopped then. Why did he test a double positive in November?

I;m a gonna blame Ray Wright!

gary
08-20-2010, 10:08 PM
Will you ever prove nothing was done on purpose? You may prove that there are other ways of having elevated levels but without being with Cushing all the time you just won't know for sure all you know is what might have happend. Just a thought. Just because everyone knows there are different ways does not mean they know how/why it happend all they know is hey, it's there. You know?Is this a silly post? I have a feeling it might be.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2010, 10:11 PM
Is this a silly post? I have a feeling it might be.

Nah, it's fine.

You're just saying that if all you have to look at are levels of certain things, it's hard to tell what's happening naturally and what's happening unnaturally. And the only real way to be sure is to keep someone under surveillance 24/7.

Number19
08-20-2010, 10:20 PM
Is this a silly post? I have a feeling it might be.No not really. The wording is a little awkward, but I knew exactly the intent.

I almost responded before, but I thought my answer was a little dumb and wiped it out: You would check yourself into a clinic where you had 24 hour supervision. If you still tested positive after 3 months, you would have made your point.

gary
08-20-2010, 10:22 PM
Nah, it's fine.

You're just saying that if all you have to look at are levels of certain things, it's hard to tell what's happening naturally and what's happening unnaturally. And the only real way to be sure is to keep someone under surveillance 24/7.That's right or possibly just make PED's fair game. I know this is not but I am sure you catch my drift anyway and that is another thread all together for another day.

gary
08-20-2010, 10:24 PM
No not really. The wording is a little awkward, but I knew exactly the intent.

I almost responded before, but I thought my answer was a little dumb and wiped it out: You would check yourself into a clinic where you had 24 hour supervision. If you still tested positive after 3 months, you would have made your point.I got it.

thunderkyss
08-20-2010, 10:35 PM
The NFL doesn't have total neutrality in the matter either, but they have enough vested interest in PR to be trusted to oversee it. Today's NFL is highly trustworthy, especially if you contrast it with the NBA.

I think not. The NFL, MLB have just as much interest to fake a test as any individual team.

They can have a third party do the testing, just like my company has a third party looking for leaks (environmental testing). That third party will report what they find to my unit, my plant, and the state of Texas.

My unit ( any NFL team) has to also report that leak to the State, and the state gives us so much time to make a first attempt, then we have to have it retested, if it fails again, we have so long to do whatever it takes (short of a unit shutdown) to fix it. If we still can't get it fixed, we have to fix it at the very first opportunity. If we don't, we get fined.

Same thing with the NFL. The third party reports to the team, and to the NFL. The NFL already set the rules, 1st violation equals whatever, second violation equals whatever plus, 3rd violation whatever.

The only difference, is that the team is in the loop. The team has to set out the same punishment mandated by the league. If the team, found some reason to justify a leaner sentence, and that player tests positive again (in the case of Cushing, he is still tested more frequently), then the team is punished for being lenient in the first place.

It would be the same thing for players who misbehave. These players, Rothlisberger, Pac Man, Marshawn Lynch, are taking all the heat, but the teams get off scott free. Sure, we are going to miss Cushing, but what's to keep the Texans from turning a blind eye to the other guy they know is taking steroids (got their fingers crossed that he doesn't get caught)? What's to stop a team from picking up a Pac Man Jones? Or a Marshawn Lynch, or a Cedric Benson, or a Ben Rothlisberger?

These guys can continue to screw up, and some team will pick them up, because they produce. The only thing the team is out, is a roster spot, which they'll fill within a week. They won't have to play the player while suspended, and if he's kicked out for the season, they can get their guaranteed money back.

Where I work, my immediate supervisor is held responsible if I take drugs, or mis-behave. IF I test positive for drugs or alcohol, & my immediate supervisor didn't turn me in, then the question is, "How could you not know?" They will do an investigation, and if they find that he should have known, that's his ass.

Texecutioner
08-20-2010, 10:50 PM
I think not. The NFL, MLB have just as much interest to fake a test as any individual team.

They can have a third party do the testing, just like my company has a third party looking for leaks (environmental testing). That third party will report what they find to my unit, my plant, and the state of Texas.



They already have that Thunderkyss. My buddy used to do those tests at the NFL player's houses all of the time out here. He even tested Andre Johnson at this house. That's exactly what they have.

Number19
08-20-2010, 10:59 PM
I think not. The NFL, MLB have just as much interest to fake a test as any individual team.

They can have a third party do the testing, just like my company has a third party looking for leaks (environmental testing). That third party will report what they find to my unit, my plant, and the state of Texas...You're plan is workable, but it probably comes down to politics and power. Under your system, the teams could be disciplined for not detecting and punishing infractions. The owners do not want this hanging over their heads. They prefer the league office have full responsibility for the player testing and disciplining. There could also be some PR stuff involved here when the team and owner are not seen as the "bad cop".

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2010, 11:08 PM
There are homeopathic hCG things that you can buy. People are selling all sorts of things on the internet under the guise of hCG... BUT... they probably don't actually do anything to boost hCG and they probably don't actually contain any "real" hCG.

The only "real" way to elevate your hCG that I know about is to inject it. And it's a schedule III drug. It's illegal. So, if they were doing anything, then it would probably be taking small injections of hCG hoping to just get a slight boost or something. (Not that getting a slight boost of hCG actually does anything to help with performance that anyone knows of.)

That doesn't mean there aren't other ways I don't know about.

Any performance enhancement would be secondary to stimulation of the testes.......and only then in the case of an overt testosterone deficient state.

I want to further clarify something. To date, science hasn’t been able to produce a way to deliver the intact HCG hormone into the blood stream in any way except by injection, just as insulin has to be given by injection to be effective. HCG is over 5 times larger than insulin and it is not possible for that size of protein to be absorbed through a person’s mucus membranes. If it is taken orally the HCG protein is digested by enzymes that break it up into amino acids and it is no longer HCG.

There are no supplements that would have stimulated Cushing's natural production of HCG.

Number19
08-20-2010, 11:19 PM
I;m a gonna blame Ray Wright!OK, I've gone back and reread the posts by devo-x and Pencil Neck and this makes some sense. Does anyone remember a timeline when this communication may have occurred - prior to the September testing, or after? It's possible this "stuff" may have been used for years by Cushing and not caused a problem with his college or high school testing, but been the culprit in the more stringent NFL testing. If that's the case, "the problem" may be solved and probably won't reoccur.

Number19
08-20-2010, 11:26 PM
Any performance enhancement would be secondary to stimulation of the testes.......and only then in the case of an overt testosterone deficient state.

I want to further clarify something. To date, science hasn’t been able to produce a way to deliver the intact HCG hormone into the blood stream in any way except by injection, just as insulin has to be given by injection to be effective. HCG is over 5 times larger than insulin and it is not possible for that size of protein to be absorbed through a person’s mucus membranes. If it is taken orally the HCG protein is digested by enzymes that break it up into amino acids and it is no longer HCG.

There are no supplements that would have stimulated Cushing's natural production of HCG.Boy, what a killjoy. Just when I think I can put together a plausible scenario, you cast your dark cloak over it.

If Cushing was injecting and was put on notice and continued injecting - well, I'm rejecting this as simply not reasonable and I'm back to natural production.

The Pencil Neck
08-21-2010, 12:19 AM
Boy, what a killjoy. Just when I think I can put together a plausible scenario, you cast your dark cloak over it.

If Cushing was injecting and was put on notice and continued injecting - well, I'm rejecting this as simply not reasonable and I'm back to natural production.

From a timeline, it doesn't make sense unless he's a complete and total *****.

If he was injecting and he got that first notification that he'd had a partial positive for hCG and he not only kept injecting but possibly upped the dose, he'd have to be really stupid.

Something about this whole thing just doesn't make sense any way you slice it.

CloakNNNdagger
08-21-2010, 11:17 AM
From a timeline, it doesn't make sense unless he's a complete and total *****.

If he was injecting and he got that first notification that he'd had a partial positive for hCG and he not only kept injecting but possibly upped the dose, he'd have to be really stupid.

Something about this whole thing just doesn't make sense any way you slice it.


There IS a way a player could have the scenario of multiple negative urine HCG tests, mixed with an occasional “almost positive,” and very occasional “low positive.”

In pregnancy testing, a woman is WARNED NOT TO DRINK EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF WATER because it will dilute her urine and thus dilute out HCG in her urine. A typical pregnancy HCG urine test can detect levels only down to 20miu/l (NFL test down to 5 miu/l). This type of dilution can easily lead to a “false negative” urine test. That’s why some early pregnancies are missed, and then discovered later on when HCG levels are much higher, and thus more likely to test positive at the 20miu/l level, even with significant dilution of the urine

Keep in mind that diluting a urine sample that tests down to the lower 5 miu/l level can easily occur if procedure of avoiding excessive water intake is not heeded.

The notorious high incidence of “false positive” HCG tests (also known as “Phantom HCG”) that you read about is associated with the HCG BLOOD (serum) testing, NOT urine testing. In such cases, a suspected “Phantom HCG” false positive results will be correctly identified by obtaining a urine HCG test which will test accurately as “negative.” The reason that there are so many false positives in the HCG blood test is that there are components in the blood, besides HCG, which will be recognized by the testing substrate as HCG, thus giving the appearance that there is more HCG present in the blood than there really is.....thus, the “false positive” test results.

The urine does not contain these products and therefore a “false positive” urine HCG test is virtually nonexistent....and thus a “positive” urine HCG test is considered very accurate.

Now keeping in mind the ease of dilution by over hydration I alluded to above, you should be able to understand why the urine HCG test enjoys a very high “false negative” test result rate.

Now putting this all together, it can be readily seen how the state of hydration in a player, indeed taking HCG injections, can lead to many “negative tests” (in a case totally successful purposeful overhydration)..............an occasional “almost positive” test (almost totally successful purposeful overhydration)......and a very occasional “positive test” (unsuccessful purposeful overhydration). A player trying to “beat the system” would try to stay overhydrated at all times, because he would not always know when testing is going to occur. The latter scenario (“positive test”) could very well occur if the test is performed following a hot day’s practice and the player is somewhat dehydrated and cannot rehydrate excessively before the test. The dilutional approach to masking substances is imperfect and not entirely predictable.

When you look at the overall volumes that are being diluted, it becomes more evident that the urine test is very easy to dilute out causing a “false negative,” whereas a blood test is very difficult to dilute out. The total blood volume in our bodies is approximately 5000 ml. The average human bladder capacity is 400-600 ml. To begin with, there is always lower expected detectable amount of HCG in the urine than expected in the blood. When excessive water intake occurs, more water is released in the urine to remove it from the body, and any substances in the urine will consequently be diluted out.

It is very difficult to break down such a very complicated set of events. But I hope that this post serves to possibly give some clarity rather than further confusion.

Number19
08-21-2010, 12:18 PM
Excellent - shedding further insight. Thank you.

One additional question, if I may indulge your patience. My personal experience with prescription drugs producing negative side effects, is that the body begins to cleanse itself of the drug within a week or two, after termination of the drug.

From earlier posts we know that hCG requires injection.

So, addressing the possibility of an artificially elevated level of hCG, to obtain the November double positive, would Cushing have needed to inject additional hormone at some point between September and November, or could a September injection have maintained sufficiently elevated levels to have produced these results, when combined with the hydration issues you just pointed out?

You know, it occurs to me this forum is producing some of the in depth questioning and discussion that the news media (ie Houston Chronicle) could be doing.

The Pencil Neck
08-21-2010, 12:21 PM
Now putting this all together, it can be readily seen how the state of hydration in a player, indeed taking HCG injections, can lead to many “negative tests” (in a case totally successful purposeful overhydration)..............an occasional “almost positive” test (almost totally successful purposeful overhydration)......and a very occasional “positive test” (unsuccessful purposeful overhydration). A player trying to “beat the system” would try to stay overhydrated at all times, because he would not always know when testing is going to occur. The latter scenario (“positive test”) could very well occur if the test is performed following a hot day’s practice and the player is somewhat dehydrated and cannot rehydrate excessively before the test. The dilutional approach to masking substances is imperfect and not entirely predictable.


OK. So, IF Cushing was taking hCG, he could keep himself from testing positive by purposefully keeping himself over hydrated and all of his negative tests are really "false negatives". This overhydration isn't detectable as masking? Shouldn't there be some sort of mechanism for detecting an overhydrated state?

I've put forth the hypothesis that Cushing IS taking something and that the elevated hCG was an unintended side effect. But, this is also plausible (if not, unfortunately, MORE plausible): Cushing IS taking something, some non-detectable compound, that's probably increasing his testosterone/epitestosterone to the point where his natural testosterone production is shutting down. Since the testosterone detection doesn't look at testosterone level per se but at the ratio between test and epi-test, it's possible to test negative for steroids even when you're taking them. That's the basis behind Patrick Arnold's Cream/Clear that BALCO and Victor Conte was giving to his athletes. Except Patrick and Victor were using Clomid to preserve natural test production and not hCG.

If Cush was doing something like this, he'd be able to test totally negative just by taking what he wants to take (steroids + hCG) and then making sure that he kept himself in an overhydrated state so that he didn't test positive for hCG. The steroid mix would keep him from testing positive for steroids.

Does hCG make MORE sense in this case than Clomid? Is there a way to hide Clomid use?

CloakNNNdagger
08-21-2010, 01:39 PM
OK. So, IF Cushing was taking hCG, he could keep himself from testing positive by purposefully keeping himself over hydrated and all of his negative tests are really "false negatives". This overhydration isn't detectable as masking? Shouldn't there be some sort of mechanism for detecting an overhydrated state?

I've put forth the hypothesis that Cushing IS taking something and that the elevated hCG was an unintended side effect. But, this is also plausible (if not, unfortunately, MORE plausible): Cushing IS taking something, some non-detectable compound, that's probably increasing his testosterone/epitestosterone to the point where his natural testosterone production is shutting down. Since the testosterone detection doesn't look at testosterone level per se but at the ratio between test and epi-test, it's possible to test negative for steroids even when you're taking them. That's the basis behind Patrick Arnold's Cream/Clear that BALCO and Victor Conte was giving to his athletes. Except Patrick and Victor were using Clomid to preserve natural test production and not hCG.

If Cush was doing something like this, he'd be able to test totally negative just by taking what he wants to take (steroids + hCG) and then making sure that he kept himself in an overhydrated state so that he didn't test positive for hCG. The steroid mix would keep him from testing positive for steroids.

Does hCG make MORE sense in this case than Clomid? Is there a way to hide Clomid use?

WADA and the NFL test urine samples for urine concentration. Specific gravity tests for sample dilution. The normal range for specific gravity is from 1.003 to 1.030. They use a cut off point of high concentration of the urine to avoid the more important and consequential "false positives" caused by dehydration. But the lower cut off is not practical because it can be so low under normal nonpurposeful overhydration. There are other tests that will pick up adulteration of the urine test. For example a urine sample containing
no creatinine is not consistent with human urine.

Clomid is tested for by the NFL, and an attempt to be masked in the same dilution fashion as HCG. So does HCG make MORE sense in this case than Clomid + HCG + some steroid ? I would have to say YES, simply because you are introducing more variables that all have to work in concert perfectly for avoiding detection.

CloakNNNdagger
08-21-2010, 02:06 PM
Excellent - shedding further insight. Thank you.

One additional question, if I may indulge your patience. My personal experience with prescription drugs producing negative side effects, is that the body begins to cleanse itself of the drug within a week or two, after termination of the drug.

From earlier posts we know that hCG requires injection.

So, addressing the possibility of an artificially elevated level of hCG, to obtain the November double positive, would Cushing have needed to inject additional hormone at some point between September and November, or could a September injection have maintained sufficiently elevated levels to have produced these results, when combined with the hydration issues you just pointed out?

You know, it occurs to me this forum is producing some of the in depth questioning and discussion that the news media (ie Houston Chronicle) could be doing.

HCG can be detected for at least 7-10 days up to 3 weeks post injection in some cases.

ChampionTexan
08-21-2010, 02:27 PM
Excellent - shedding further insight. Thank you.

One additional question, if I may indulge your patience. My personal experience with prescription drugs producing negative side effects, is that the body begins to cleanse itself of the drug within a week or two, after termination of the drug.

From earlier posts we know that hCG requires injection.

So, addressing the possibility of an artificially elevated level of hCG, to obtain the November double positive, would Cushing have needed to inject additional hormone at some point between September and November, or could a September injection have maintained sufficiently elevated levels to have produced these results, when combined with the hydration issues you just pointed out?

You know, it occurs to me this forum is producing some of the in depth questioning and discussion that the news media (ie Houston Chronicle) could be doing.

Question - where are you getting the fact that his failed test occurred in November? Not saying it's wrong, it's just that I've been under the impression that the actual failed test occurred in September, and that the "A positive, B negative" occurred sometime prior to that (combine maybe?). I know I've heard that after the failed test, Cush was tested through-out the remainder of the season, all subsequent tests came back okay, and I've believed that constituted almost the whole season.

CloakNNNdagger
08-21-2010, 03:01 PM
Question - where are you getting the fact that his failed test occurred in November? Not saying it's wrong, it's just that I've been under the impression that the actual failed test occurred in September, and that the "A positive, B negative" occurred sometime prior to that (combine maybe?). I know I've heard that after the failed test, Cush was tested through-out the remainder of the season, all subsequent tests came back okay, and I've believed that constituted almost the whole season.


From Cushing' attorney:


Steinberg was brought in by Condon after Cushing learned in October he had failed the first test taken in September. Steinberg explained the process................

...............“The ‘A' bottle was barely over the discernible and legal limit pursuant to the policy. The ‘B' bottle got tested, and we were notified it was below the limit. As a result, it was deemed to be a negative test.”

Then Cushing submitted to another test several weeks later, according to Steinberg. Both samples came back positive.
Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...t/7006235.html)

Number19
08-21-2010, 03:04 PM
Question - where are you getting the fact that his failed test occurred in November? Not saying it's wrong, it's just that I've been under the impression that the actual failed test occurred in September, and that the "A positive, B negative" occurred sometime prior to that (combine maybe?). I know I've heard that after the failed test, Cush was tested through-out the remainder of the season, all subsequent tests came back okay, and I've believed that constituted almost the whole season.The starting point for my research and education on this was this post by TexansChick:
http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/05/brian_cushing_confirmation_bia.html

Down a ways into the article is this:
What we do not know.

This list will be updated so if we learn the info, it will be inserted in the post.

Did he test positive again after knowing he tested positive hCG once before?

I've read the steroid policy plus McClain's report of how Cushing tested "positive" for presence of hCG twice, but only the second test counted because both the A and B samples were over the limit.

As I read the steroid policy, Cushing would have been notified of the positive A test and given the opportunity to have his own toxicologist for the review of B test.

The tests were taken several weeks a part, but the McClain article is unclear as to whether Cushing knew of the positive test after the first sample was taken.

I have no idea at the amount of hCG he tested at, what the hCG testing levels are, or how long artificial hCG stays in your system. Those things might be handy to know.

It would be weird to think that Cushing would continue to take artificial hCG even after knowing he had a test come back once showing he almost tested positive for it. Mike Florio talks about this some in ProFootballTalk in his discussion of the McClain piece.

[Update 5/16: John McClain notes in his blog comments about the timing of the two tests: "in September, he provided a test with Bottle A and Bottle B. Bottle A came back positive in October. Bottle B went to a separate lab and came back negative. Under NFL rules, if Bottle B comes back negative, it's a negative test. End of story on that test. In November, he was randomly tested. Bottle A came back positive. Bottle B went to a separate lab and came back positive. That's his first positive test. I have no idea what's going to happen in the future."

If he tested positive for hCG twice early in the season, why didn't this continue to happen if this happened naturally?

[Update: 5/17: According to McClain, the facts most people are assuming about the test are wrong. He had measurable amounts of hCG in September but that wasn't a positive test because the B sample wasn't in high enough quantities. He had the true positive test (both A and B samples) in November.]
(edit) Reviewing this has changed my timeline slightly: 1) the first test was some time in September, but 2) Cushing didn't learn of the results until some time in October, 3) with the second round of tests occurring several weeks later in November.

So my question becomes : is the "several weeks later" inside or outside the 3 week period that CnD provided?

CloakNNNdagger
08-21-2010, 04:07 PM
The starting point for my research and education on this was this post by TexansChick:
http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/05/brian_cushing_confirmation_bia.html

Down a ways into the article is this:

(edit) Reviewing this has changed my timeline slightly: 1) the first test was some time in September, but 2) Cushing didn't learn of the results until some time in October, 3) with the second round of tests occurring several weeks later in November.

So my question becomes : is the "several weeks later" inside or outside the 3 week period that CnD provided?

September=

positive “A” sample test


October=

positive “A” test results were given to Cushing (remember, the player must be notified of an “A” positive test to be given the option to have his representative observe the conducting of the “B” sample testing)


Later October? or beginning of November? (“several weeks later” [following notification of September positive “A” sample)] =

2nd positive “A” sample test (unless the NFL decided to draw the 2nd test sample, based on the initial positive “A” sample, but prior to notifying Cushing of the negative “B” sample, so that Cushing would be less likely to “massage” his situation.)


Beginning? or Later? November=

notified of failing both 2nd sample tests


Lot of questions in details of the chronology. And it's difficult to gauge the word "several" by his attorney (several, usually meaning more than 2 or 3). And was his attorney's statement of "several weeks" to mean after the notification of the 1st positive "A" sample or or after the 1st negative "B" sample or even after the first test draw??? But this is what we are left with.

edo783
08-22-2010, 09:39 PM
Might the fact that both Cush and the strength coach were told of a possible issue in what he was taking (from the coach?) and then Cush gets popped, be the reason that strength coach is no longer with the Texans?

Number19
08-22-2010, 09:57 PM
The thought did cross my mind - only for a moment. There is no way of knowing one way or the other so can be nothing more than conjecture.

Where did the news/rumor/comment originate, regarding the possibility of Cushing and Dan Riley(?) knowing of potential problems with the supplements Cushing was taking?

The Pencil Neck
08-22-2010, 09:58 PM
Might the fact that both Cush and the strength coach were told of a possible issue in what he was taking (from the coach?) and then Cush gets popped, be the reason that strength coach is no longer with the Texans?

That has been the suspicion.

CloakNNNdagger
08-22-2010, 10:36 PM
That has been the suspicion.

It would not be surprising that the NFL would have been "connecting dots" since they would have knowledge of more exact timelines.

devo-x
08-23-2010, 09:24 PM
Has anyone interviewed Ray Wright about this (although I doubt that he would publicly talk about it)?

CloakNNNdagger
08-26-2010, 06:09 PM
A piece by Jerome Solomon.

Cushing must come forth with proof of his innocence (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7171891.html)

Brian Cushing says it is over. Texans owner Bob McNair says it is over. Neither will discuss the matter.

Now that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has ruled Cushing's four-game suspension for use of performance-enhancing drugs would be upheld despite McNair's appeal, they say it is behind them.

Huh?

Ostensibly, Cushing and McNair are asking us to ignore the elephant that won't be in the room making tackles in the first four games. They brought this circus to town and don't want to clean up after the pachyderm. As if saying more would be redundant.

McNair went to New York to take on the league, but has backed down as if he expects Goodell to instruct officials to flag the Texans for more holding penalties if he pressed the matter.

How do you give up on a fight so easily when you have been so wronged? That is what they claim to believe.

Call it a claim because they have offered no proof other than Cushing saying emphatically (and believably) he is innocent, and that "a lot of doctors" worked on his case and determined that his positive test for human Chorionic Gonadotropin was the result of Overtrained Athlete Syndrome.

Giving up seems like an unnecessary admittance of guilt. Sometimes you can fight city hall. As powerful as the NFL is, if Cushing has medical proof he did not cheat, did not take hCG after a cycle of anabolic steroids as per its most common use among PED users, why would he not present it?

Because of a one-way gag order, the NFL isn't allowed to provide information why Cushing's appeal was denied.

"Right now the public is getting one side of a story, and it's highly suspect," said Travis Tygart, chief executive officer of the United States Anti-Doping Agency. "It just makes no sense. There is no basis we're familiar with that says that, and we're working with the top scientists in the world.

"We know athletes. They know how the testing works and are very sophisticated in how to try to beat the testing. Some succeed and some fail.

"Denial is the common currency of the guilty and the innocent. If he wants to send us the documents (to prove his innocence) we'll gladly look at them."

Tygart doesn't expect to receive anything at the USADA headquarters in Colorado Springs soon. But what if Cushing has the body makeup that explains the presence of the substance?

Poor representation

If Cushing feels persecuted he shouldn't blame the league or the media. His representation has let him down. Tom Condon, his agent, has been as quiet as a church mouse, and Harvey Steinberg, the lawyer who represented Cushing in his appeal to the NFL, is always it on phone tag.

They have left Cushing alone on Steroid Island to become the butt of jokes.

As for the doctors Cushing says he has had working his case, not a one has been identified and none has stepped forward.

Steinberg told the Chronicle's John McClain in May that Cushing "barely" tested positive.

According to Tygart, when it comes to hCG, you can't be a little bit pregnant or barely test positive. Pregnancy is a defense for an athlete having a high-enough level of hCG in her system to test positive.

Were Cushing to assert he was with child last fall, that would be a tad bit more of a medical miracle than his chosen explanation.

Thank goodness Cushing has found out he is free of tumors. Experts say a tumor would be the only other way the substance could occur naturally in a man's body to the level that would trigger a positive test.

"Men don't have it to anywhere near those levels, unless they have a secreting tumor," Tygart said. "Outside of a pituitary tumor, it doesn't make sense. The level at which you test positive, is high. I haven't seen the data, but the level of the positive test is at the level for use. It is a classic drug you use when you're on steroids.

"An athlete can make up a story and, well, let me say, maybe there is some substance to it. If so, let's see the data."

The facts exist

This isn't a "he said, he said" situation like Roger Clemens-Brian McNamee. There is alleged to be science to back Cushing's claims.

McNair won't say what proof he saw convinced him to go out on such a shaky limb, but he is out there with his favorite defensive player.

Cushing and McNair sitting in a tree, M-I-S-S-I-N-G information that would make us believe one of them isn't a steroid user.

Tygart said, "Here you have what looks like a duck, smells like a duck and …"

Double Barrel
08-26-2010, 06:24 PM
"Right now the public is getting one side of a story, and it's highly suspect," said Travis Tygart, chief executive officer of the United States Anti-Doping Agency. "It just makes no sense. There is no basis we're familiar with that says that, and we're working with the top scientists in the world.

This dude has obviously not read this thread! :thinking:

Texecutioner
08-26-2010, 06:37 PM
This dude has obviously not read this thread! :thinking:

Yeah, I guess Solomen is just another slanderer of Cushing. Lol!

Number19
08-26-2010, 07:19 PM
What I'm finding visiting blogs and boards around the league is a serious lack of knowledge of the facts. People know he tested positive. The more knowledgeable ones may know it was for hCG. But almost no one knows he was tested twice, in September and in November.

This Travis Tygart sounds like one of those who doesn't know all the facts.

One additional piece of information I picked up (don't know how reliable ) is that hCG, when used as PCT (post-cycle therapy) is usually taken for 2 to 4 weeks. You take it in two ways, either in larger doses every 4-5 days or in smaller daily doses.

What I don't know is, after a steroid cycle, how soon do you typically start your PCT.

Also, I'd like to know how long steroids are detectable after a cycle.

But to assume Brian is guilty as charged means he was probably on his steroid cycle into July, just before training camp and was on his hCG cycle all during training camp and for the first two months of the season.

I'm going to keep repeating, for a rookie just starting out, and as knowledgeable about intensive training as he is, and to put his whole career at risk, well it just doesn't smell right. Without getting into the whole thing about the possibility of steroids earlier, to maintain he was actually doing it during his rookie season, makes him out to be just a little too dense between the ears.

According to all the accusers, this wanting to know all the facts and hows and whys makes me a "homer".

One more thing, for anyone still reading, other than Bosworth, are there any other high profile cases of rookies and steroids?

CloakNNNdagger
08-26-2010, 09:05 PM
FYI. Travis Tygart helped set up the NFL testing laboratory in Utah.

Brisco_County
08-26-2010, 11:43 PM
A piece by Jerome Solomon.

This piece bugged me. Not because of his opinion, but because of indulgent writing and lame humor.

"Were Cushing to assert he was with child last fall, that would be a tad bit more of a medical miracle than his chosen explanation."

Is that supposed to be clever?

"Cushing and McNair sitting in a tree, M-I-S-S-I-N-G information that would make us believe one of them isn't a steroid user."

Cushing may deserve to take some lumps, but give me a break.

HOU-TEX
08-27-2010, 10:55 AM
Meh, what's done, is done. They've appealed twice and failed. I don't know what else the dude wants them to do.

Double Barrel
08-27-2010, 11:25 AM
FYI. Travis Tygart helped set up the NFL testing laboratory in Utah.

d'oh! But he's just another ignorant hater now. :homer:

disaacks3
08-27-2010, 05:08 PM
I'm going to keep repeating, for a rookie just starting out, and as knowledgeable about intensive training as he is, and to put his whole career at risk, well it just doesn't smell right. Without getting into the whole thing about the possibility of steroids earlier, to maintain he was actually doing it during his rookie season, makes him out to be just a little too dense between the ears. Your assertion makes sense IF he's never used steroids and wouldn't want to risk ANYthing prior to his NFL debut.

The reverse analogy goes like this: IF Brian Cushing has long been a "user" and has NEVER been caught prior during his years of testing at USC, then why would he suddenly STOP using prior to joining the NFL?