PDA

View Full Version : McNair to NFL: Overturn Cushing suspension


Pages : [1] 2

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 07:48 PM
The Boss speaks:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7145062.html

dc_txtech
08-08-2010, 07:54 PM
Free the Cushhawk!!:clap:

JB
08-08-2010, 07:55 PM
Interesting. I wish him luck.

jaayteetx
08-08-2010, 07:57 PM
I don't know what the boss knows but it sure would be great if it was at least reduced to a two game suspension, setting up a season premiere against the girls.

Buffi2
08-08-2010, 07:59 PM
You go McNair!

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 07:59 PM
Maybe Bob should take this man to the meeting with him, you know, just to kind of stand there and observe:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0304/nfl_a_pollard_300.jpg

Wolf
08-08-2010, 08:00 PM
Interesting. I wish him luck.

yep I do too

TexansFanatic
08-08-2010, 08:03 PM
Wow! What an interesting turn this is.

If McNair can get Goodell to grant amnesty, what a HUGE boost to the team's psyche that would be. Something like that could set the tone for a great start to a make or break season.

pbat488
08-08-2010, 08:04 PM
Great news, let's hope McNair makes him an offer he can't refuse.

JB
08-08-2010, 08:05 PM
Hopefully the power that McNair wields, plus the new info will get it at least reduced to 2 games.

Allstar
08-08-2010, 08:05 PM
I'm not holding my breath, but it would be awesome to even reduce it 1 game!

Honoring Earl 34
08-08-2010, 08:09 PM
http://www.tempurpedichelp.org/uploads/tempurpedichelp/images/20083201118676577801.jpg

beerlover
08-08-2010, 08:11 PM
thought the first four game where Indy, Skins, Cowboys & Raiders. Giants are is game 5 @ Relient. Otherwise hell yeah, leadership from the top love it :wesmantexanfan:

Honoring Earl 34
08-08-2010, 08:13 PM
thought the first four game where Indy, Skins, Cowboys & Raiders. Giants are is game 5 @ Relient. Otherwise hell yeah, leadership from the top love it :wesmantexanfan:

Either reduce the suspension or change the schedule .

m5kwatts
08-08-2010, 08:14 PM
If Roethlesberger's suspension can be reduced from 6 to 4 (and most think it will be) why couldn't you cut Cushing some slack too and reduce it to 1 or 2 games? I don't think there's anyway Goodell will overturn it completely but given a showing of no dirty tests since should warrant a shortening of the suspension.

And McNair's best argument is that he's an important owner to the league. He'll be taken seriously.

Allstar
08-08-2010, 08:15 PM
If Roethlesberger's suspension can be reduced from 6 to 4 (and most think it will be) why couldn't you cut Cushing some slack too and reduce it to 1 or 2 games? I don't think there's anyway Goodell will overturn it completely but given a showing of no dirty tests since should warrant a shortening of the suspension.

And McNair's best argument is that he's an important owner to the league. He'll be taken seriously.

Because it's league policy: 4 games for failed tests.

JB
08-08-2010, 08:18 PM
Who said they weren't?

McClain. From the link...

A person with knowledge of Cushing’s situation said McNair will present new evidence to Goodell the owner hopes will shorten or eliminate the suspension that is costing the linebacker games against Indianapolis, Washington, Dallas and the New York Giants.

McClame is an idjit.

Wolf
08-08-2010, 08:21 PM
I agree with this comment from the link

I am starting to wonder whether Cushing may have an argument. McNair is not a man to be rash in his support of those who may have violated policy or law.

Maddict5
08-08-2010, 08:21 PM
Because it's league policy: 4 games for failed tests.

the chron article

Honoring Earl 34
08-08-2010, 08:23 PM
If Roethlesberger's suspension can be reduced from 6 to 4 (and most think it will be) why couldn't you cut Cushing some slack too and reduce it to 1 or 2 games? I don't think there's anyway Goodell will overturn it completely but given a showing of no dirty tests since should warrant a shortening of the suspension.

And McNair's best argument is that he's an important owner to the league. He'll be taken seriously.

The Williams duo haven't sat yet .

thunderkyss
08-08-2010, 08:29 PM
I hope McNair fails, and Goddell kicks him out on his ass.




I say that, because I believe the only way Goddell will give up anything, is if something is wrong with Cushing. I'd rather the kid sit out 4 games, and comes back with a vengence than to find out he has a serious medical issue.

m5kwatts
08-08-2010, 08:29 PM
Because it's league policy: 4 games for failed tests.

If they can poke enough holes in the tests he failed and convince them the tests weren't legitimate "failed tests" then they'll have to revisit that particular league policy. New policy is written all the time. That said McNair will have to present a knock-your-socks-off case to get to that.

DexmanC
08-08-2010, 08:29 PM
The Williams duo haven't sat yet .

That's because:

Renegade Viking-fan Judges > NFL

Big Lou
08-08-2010, 09:03 PM
I know I'm bieng a complete homer here, but I've just had a feeling something would come out that would change the suspension.

I'm sure if Cushing played for someone other than the Texans, I be like "shut up and take your suspension like a man you Roid Head!", but since he where Battle Red, Steel Blue, and Liberty White it may cloud my judgement........

"If the HCG doesn't fit you must acquit!!!!!"

drs23
08-08-2010, 09:27 PM
WOW! I doubt seriously if anything changes regarding Cush's suspension. Mr. McNair would have to have a VERY compelling presentation for the commish to overturn league policy at this point. As has been known since day one, he's already turned down Cush's appeal.

Hope something happens but really doubt it will.

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 09:27 PM
Maybe Bob should take this man to the meeting with him, you know, just to kind of stand there and observe:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0304/nfl_a_pollard_300.jpg

LMAO.... I think I got negative rep from someone called "HouTxFan" on this post.... He has 0 posts.... lmao.. Does a purple dot mean negative rep?

JB
08-08-2010, 09:29 PM
LMAO.... I think I got negative rep from someone called "HouTxFan" on this post.... He has 0 posts.... lmao.. Does a purple dot mean negative rep?

I think it means he does not have enough power to give any rep.

Wolf
08-08-2010, 09:29 PM
LMAO.... I think I got negative rep from someone called "HouTxFan" on this post.... He has 0 posts.... lmao.. Does a purple dot mean negative rep?
t it didn't effect you because their rep power isn't strong enough to do anything

Cjeremy635
08-08-2010, 09:30 PM
LMAO.... I think I got negative rep from someone called "HouTxFan" on this post.... He has 0 posts.... lmao.. Does a purple dot mean negative rep?

No, it means he just doesn't have enough rep to make it green yet. It was a positive one. I liked it myself.

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 09:30 PM
I believe it is that you got a neg rep, but it didn't effect you because their rep power isn't strong enough to do anything

Ah ok. I just thought it was funny someone with no posts would give neg rep! lol

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 09:32 PM
thanks Cj!

Wolf
08-08-2010, 09:32 PM
cjeremy might have got it right , it could be a pos rep.. I am confused on the colors

JB
08-08-2010, 09:33 PM
Ah ok. I just thought it was funny someone with no posts would give neg rep! lol

Nah, I saw nothing neg rep worthy. He may have tried to give you pos rep, but he has no power to affect either way. Did he leave a comment?

Cjeremy635
08-08-2010, 09:35 PM
cjeremy might have got it right , it could be a pos rep.. I am confused on the colors

I'm pretty certain because I had asked them same thing a few years ago when I was a newb. I thought, "how the hell could someone negative rep me for that?" and Vinny said that it wasn't a neg rep, but it was a positive rep by someone who just didn't have anything to give.

gary
08-08-2010, 09:35 PM
Ah ok. I just thought it was funny someone with no posts would give neg rep! lol
I just threw you some postive rep.

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 09:36 PM
Nah, I saw nothing neg rep worthy. He may have tried to give you pos rep, but he has no power to affect either way. Did he leave a comment?

Nah no comment. I thought it may have been someone just going around giving negs on posts. No big deal!

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 09:36 PM
Thanks Gary buddy!

gary
08-08-2010, 09:41 PM
Thanks Gary buddy!You are welcome. Just so you know all it means his rep power is not strong enough to add to yours yet I know this.

Kimmy
08-08-2010, 09:42 PM
You are welcome. Just so you know all it means his rep power is not strong enough to add to yours yet I know this.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/krazykimmy/4873757743/

:)

Showtime100
08-08-2010, 09:43 PM
There you were getting ready to knock the piss out of an innocent poster. For shame. :) :D :specnatz:

Pollardized
08-08-2010, 09:46 PM
There you were getting ready to knock the piss out of an innocent poster. For shame. :) :D :specnatz:

Well, the thought did cross my mind. :ouch:

gtexan02
08-08-2010, 09:52 PM
Im betting the suspension stands

MojoMan
08-08-2010, 10:06 PM
Bob McNair is going to bat for Brian Cushing and the Houston Texans to have Cushing's four game suspension overturned. This is highly unusual, at least as far as I am aware. But what would be even more unusual is if Goodell actually listened to Bob McNair and overturned the suspension. I hope Bob is successful, but this has to be considered a long-shot effort.

McNair, Goodell to talk about Cushing situation (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7145062.html)
Texans owner looking to have LB's suspension cut or overturned
By John McClain

Texans owner Bob McNair will meet with Roger Goodell in New York on Monday to try to persuade the NFL commissioner to reduce or overturn linebacker Brian Cushing’s four-game suspension. Cushing was suspended for the first four games this season because he violated the league’s policy against performance-enhancing drugs by testing positive for hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin), a banned substance that can be used to mask steroids.

A person with knowledge of Cushing’s situation said McNair will present new evidence to Goodell the owner hopes will shorten or eliminate the suspension that is costing the linebacker games against Indianapolis, Washington, Dallas and Oakland. Goodell suspended Cushing and then rejected Cushing’s appeal in February. Cushing, who can practice during training camp and play in preseason games, denied using hCG when the suspension was announced. He said he didn’t know how the substance got into his body.

Cushing has convinced his owner. McNair recently said that he backs Cushing and believes he is innocent. McNair has paid for some of Cushing’s recent tests. Neither McNair nor Cushing could be reached Sunday. Since his positive test last season, Cushing has traveled the country visiting specialists, including some in Houston, hoping to find a doctor who can prove hCG was produced naturally in his body.

Although hCG is a hormone that can be produced naturally in men and women, including in the pituitary gland, it is produced most commonly in pregnant women and has been used for weight loss and to slow the aging process. ProFootballTalk.com showed in the offseason that the standard letter the league sends to players who test positive for hCG warns them that it can be a sign of tumors and that they should get tested. Cushing was tested for tumors which can cause testicular cancer. Those tests were negative.

gary
08-08-2010, 10:08 PM
There is already a thread about this.

Hardcore Texan
08-08-2010, 10:48 PM
I agree with this comment from the link

Me too.

thunderkyss
08-08-2010, 10:49 PM
There you were getting ready to knock the piss out of an innocent poster. For shame. :) :D :specnatz:

That's that Pollard in him.

Knock the piss out of them first, ask questions later.


If you don't hit him again first.

Hervoyel
08-08-2010, 11:06 PM
I think it unlikely that Goodell changes anything but I like seeing McNair make the attempt. I like it because while I've found his inexperience at times frustrating I have always thought it was obvious that he was 100% committed to building what he thought was the best franchise possible. It's like, I don't always agree with him but I believe McNair is genuine and sincere in every way. I don't think he'd be going to see Goodell if he wasn't convinced that Cushing was innocent.

I think his going to bat for Brian combined with the team taking care of Andre Johnson will net us a very positive situ in the locker room. It's a good thing when the players don't think the owner is just one more guy out to screw them over.

Lucky
08-08-2010, 11:08 PM
A person with knowledge of Cushing’s situation said McNair will present new evidence to Goodell the owner hopes will shorten or eliminate the suspension that is costing the linebacker games against Indianapolis, Washington, Dallas and Oakland. That's the key element to the story. What is the new evidence, and is it compelling? :popcorn:

MojoMan
08-08-2010, 11:11 PM
If Cushing is reinstated, the Texans are going to romp.

gg no re
08-08-2010, 11:12 PM
That's the key element to the story. What is the new evidence, and is it compelling? :popcorn:

Live feed of Goodell's family wearing Patriots jerseys, and Pollard locked up in a cage, ready to be let loose.

The Pencil Neck
08-08-2010, 11:15 PM
LMAO.... I think I got negative rep from someone called "HouTxFan" on this post.... He has 0 posts.... lmao.. Does a purple dot mean negative rep?

Like several people have said, he tried to rep you (pos or neg) and didn't have the power. It was probably a positive rep.

He did the same thing to me on a post. I've gotten several of those in the past.

The Pencil Neck
08-08-2010, 11:18 PM
That's the key element to the story. What is the new evidence, and is it compelling? :popcorn:

It sounds like they've sent Brian to a ton of doctors to get this checked out. It's probably the same evidence with a lot more supporting references.

drs23
08-08-2010, 11:26 PM
I wondered what the "personal business" that Cush had to take care of last Wednesday. Not unheard of but personal business isn't offered often as a reason for a player's absence. Betting it had to do with McNair's appeal on his behalf. INHM. Just sayin'.

drs23
08-08-2010, 11:28 PM
I wondered what the "personal business" that Cush had to take care of last Wednesday. Not unheard of but personal business isn't offered often as a reason for a player's absence. Betting it had to do with McNair's appeal on his behalf. IMHO. Just sayin'.

JB
08-08-2010, 11:28 PM
I wondered what the "personal business" that Cush had to take care of last Wednesday. Not unheard of but personal business isn't offered often as a reason for a player's absence. Betting it had to do with McNair's appeal on his behalf. INHM. Just sayin'.

Yeah, I was thinking pretty much the same thing. Betcha he had to go take one final test.

btw, what does INHM mean?

drs23
08-08-2010, 11:30 PM
Means I can't spell IMHO. It's a short bus thang. :fingergun:

JB
08-08-2010, 11:36 PM
:lol:

HouTxFan
08-09-2010, 12:16 AM
LMAO.... I think I got negative rep from someone called "HouTxFan" on this post.... He has 0 posts.... lmao.. Does a purple dot mean negative rep?

Okey dokey...sorry 'bout that...and didn't mean to cause such a stir! I've lurked here for quite a while, and just recently registered because I've enjoyed all the training camp discussions amongst you folks.

I didn't know how the rep thing worked, so be forewarned, I gave some others the "purple dot treatment" today too. No offense intended, I assure you. Btw, I'm not a guy; I'm a girl, and a kinda old girl at that. Plus...I wear glasses, I'm not very big, I have rheumatoid arthritis, and I love the Houston Texans, just as I did the Oilers before them. So please, guys, try to keep the beating about my head and shoulders to a bare minimum, k? :hides:

All I was trying to say to you Pollardized, was :goodpost:. I love Bernard Pollard, and I thought your comment was pretty damn funny.

J_R
08-09-2010, 12:41 AM
According to sources Cushing has been going through a battery of medical tests with hopes of showing the NFL the elevated levels of hCG found in his body were naturally occurring.

The new evidence as stated a couple posts before?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0714IbwC3HA :)

Texans_Chick
08-09-2010, 12:55 AM
Here's my take:

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/08/bob_mcnair_tries_to_get_brian.html

There's tons of stuff that hasn't been reported relating to this case. Because 1. he and his lawyers weren't talking; 2. everybody assumed he was lying so why pursue this more?

If I were totally guessing, I'd say it is the pituitary angle. There were allusions to a pituitary procedure he got in college. Basically, there's a procedure that can be done on an outpatient basis that can tell if an enlarged pituitary is a problem or not a problem. Maybe he had a problem that wasn't something that was dangerous but does create false positives. As I've been told, the test that the NFL uses cannot detect the difference between male, natural hCG and outside sources, though there are expensive tests that can detect that difference.

Total speculation. Maybe they share the info, maybe they don't.

will742
08-09-2010, 01:09 AM
Well, the thought did cross my mind. :ouch:

I +rep'ed you as well. Love me some Pollard if you couldn't tell by the signature. :turtle:

Texans_Chick
08-09-2010, 01:09 AM
Peter King says that he will have more on this in his MMQB tomorrow.

Likely means that he will assume Cushing is a cheat because that's what he assumed even before Cushing spoke to the media.

dalemurphy
08-09-2010, 01:45 AM
Here are my thoughts on the subject.

Cushing Innocent? Maybe so.
The 21st century is a cynical place. We are so inundated with reality that we have been desensitized to almost everything. Our heroes falling from grace is nothing more than a Tuesday afternoon. So, when the story broke that Brian Cushing tested positive for a banned substance most of us took it in stride, displaying more disappointment over who would cover Dallas Clark on September 12th than the fact that one of our players had been caught cheating.

For Barrett and I, it was a punch in the gut. You see, we are not cool. Cynicism is cool. Dismissiveness is cool. Being detached and practical… that’s cool these days. Barrett and I are total saps! We get giddy when Bob McNair talks about integrity and when Andre Johnson returns to practice because holding out doesn’t feel right. I was moved to tears when Bob McNair openned up the Reliant facilities to the Katrina victims in 2005. When John McClain describes the character of Gary Kubiak, I forgive him immediately for the Chris Brown halfback pass and the unknown mistakes that lie ahead. We believe all the propaganda that separates the Texans from the Cowboys and the Al Davis’ “just win, baby” Oakland Raiders. We don’t want to “just win”. We want this organization to win with integrity and class. Natually, when the Cushing accusation hit our virgin ears, we were in dismay. We love Brian Cushing. We love his attitude and the way he plays football. But, if he is a cheater, it severely taints any of his accomplishments (at least in our eyes). MORE HERE! (http://www.texansbullblog.com/cushing-innocent/news/)

darnbni99a
08-09-2010, 01:59 AM
good luck to him!!! if Cushing comes back early.............:splits::splits::texanbill: :mail: :breakdance::whip:

HouTxFan
08-09-2010, 02:03 AM
This development in Cushing's suspension gives me some hope of compelling new evidence. I have a hard time picturing a man of Bob McNair's stature waltzing out on a limb, with his reputation in tow, without at least a hint of a safety net below.

Brisco_County
08-09-2010, 02:24 AM
Here's my take:

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/08/bob_mcnair_tries_to_get_brian.html

There's tons of stuff that hasn't been reported relating to this case. Because 1. he and his lawyers weren't talking; 2. everybody assumed he was lying so why pursue this more?

If I were totally guessing, I'd say it is the pituitary angle. There were allusions to a pituitary procedure he got in college. Basically, there's a procedure that can be done on an outpatient basis that can tell if an enlarged pituitary is a problem or not a problem. Maybe he had a problem that wasn't something that was dangerous but does create false positives. As I've been told, the test that the NFL uses cannot detect the difference between male, natural hCG and outside sources, though there are expensive tests that can detect that difference.

Total speculation. Maybe they share the info, maybe they don't.

My favorite quote from the story: "Sports talk can't have a rational discussion of PED policy and suspensions."

So many questions... This can of worms better be worth re-opening.

- Does Cushing seem like the type to allow McNair to be put in this position when he could easily let it all blow over?

- Is McNair the type of businessman who lets his emotion trump his logic?

- Is McNair hoping to appeal this from a technical loophole angle or from an evidentiary angle?

- If there is a case to be made for naturally elevated hormones, why couldn't Cushing submit a month's worth of daily urine collection to verify the patterns?

I'm not looking forward to round 2 of this in sports talk.

Grforces
08-09-2010, 03:41 AM
When I first read this story I started doing laps around my living room.
I just love to read stories that let me know mcnair is not what I read about. I always read from people that post how he is money hungry. That he cares about bottom line more than actually paying his players. I din't think he would do anything with the A.J. contract, and he took care of that.
I put Cushings suspension behind me, as many of you probably did. It sucked, it hurt, and it was very dissapointing. This dosen't make it worse. Even if mcnair dosen't get anywhere with the commish, it just makes me have more respect for the owner, and even cushing for not letting it go. It let's me know that they haven't put it behing them and that they are commited to winning.
Maybe it's good P.R. but if it is, I for one am falling for it.

IDEXAN
08-09-2010, 06:27 AM
You have to hand it to McNair, he's really a "players owner" with this
gesture, this kind of support. Honestly I've thought Cushings story was dubious, but now I don't know ?
Bob McNair is a serious man, a man to be respected. We'll see what happens ? Just halving the suspension to 2 games would be a significant accomplishment by the owner if he could pull it off.

RTP2110
08-09-2010, 07:51 AM
Man, it sure would be great if McNair could get the suspension revoked. I say that because I don't think there's any legitimate way for a reduction. It's either, "You did it. You're out for 4 games according to the policy." or "You're innocent, so you shouldn't be suspended." Seems like the only way for a reduction would be a change in league policy.

That leads me to believe that McNair has some form of new evidence that he believes will prove that Cushing was indeed clean. I hope that's the case. :fingers crossed:

thunderkyss
08-09-2010, 08:06 AM
Here's my take:

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/08/bob_mcnair_tries_to_get_brian.html

There's tons of stuff that hasn't been reported relating to this case. Because 1. he and his lawyers weren't talking; 2. everybody assumed he was lying so why pursue this more?

But the more I tried to find out more information about the suspension, the one thing I kept repeatedly hearing was that there was much more to the story than what was publicly reported. And that nobody should make any assumptions about things. We are not medical experts. We do not have access to his medical information.



Gee... this has got me wondering. Maybe He was a she way back when...

MojoMan
08-09-2010, 08:09 AM
Okey dokey...sorry 'bout that...and didn't mean to cause such a stir! I've lurked here for quite a while, and just recently registered because I've enjoyed all the training camp discussions amongst you folks.

I didn't know how the rep thing worked, so be forewarned, I gave some others the "purple dot treatment" today too. No offense intended, I assure you. Btw, I'm not a guy; I'm a girl, and a kinda old girl at that. Plus...I wear glasses, I'm not very big, I have rheumatoid arthritis, and I love the Houston Texans, just as I did the Oilers before them. So please, guys, try to keep the beating about my head and shoulders to a bare minimum, k? :hides:

All I was trying to say to you Pollardized, was :goodpost:. I love Bernard Pollard, and I thought your comment was pretty damn funny.

Welcome to the board, HouTxFan.

Don't let them give you a hard time. You gave me some "purple dot" rep in another thread, and I appreciated it. Actually, the dot shows up gray on my screen, but it is the same either way. All this means is that you are a new poster, and you do not have any rep power yet. I forget how that works precisely, but I believe you have to have a certain number of posts, 50 I think, before your rep votes add to the point total of the recipient. Also, your rep points received will not show to the left of your posts until you hit 50 posts either.

And for your information, 49 is not old, it is middle-aged. Moreover, with medical science progressing the way it has been, you could easily live another 49 years yet, just to provide a little perspective. If you want to see some old people around here, find Thorn, Red Zone or cuppacoffee. Those are a few of our resident oldsters, and all three of them age seniority over you - hands down. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think all three of them might be card carrying members of the AARP.

:) (Just having fun with you guys)

In any case, you are welcome here, and I hope you will continue to share your perspectives with us for many years to come.

thunderkyss
08-09-2010, 08:15 AM
You have to hand it to McNair, he's really a "players owner" with this
gesture, this kind of support. Honestly I've thought Cushings story was dubious, but now I don't know ?
Bob McNair is a serious man, a man to be respected. We'll see what happens ? Just halving the suspension to 2 games would be a significant accomplishment by the owner if he could pull it off.

I agree with everything you've posted here. But I caution, this kind of attitude from McNair extends to the treatment of David Carr, Kris Brown, and Dunta Robinson. As bad as they were (or eventually became), they were here from the beginning, and McNair believes (seemingly) that he owes them something.

I personally think their intitial contracts were good enough, but I'm not the guy signing the checks. This is his organization, & he's going to run it, and treat people a certain way.

I don't always agree, but I'm not going to be an ass about it either.

thunderkyss
08-09-2010, 08:17 AM
And for your information, 49 is not old, it is middle-aged. Moreover, with medical science progressing the way it has been, you could easily live another 49 years yet, just to provide a little perspective.

Sounds like somebody is awful close to 49.

Cjeremy635
08-09-2010, 08:19 AM
Man, it sure would be great if McNair could get the suspension revoked. I say that because I don't think there's any legitimate way for a reduction. It's either, "You did it. You're out for 4 games according to the policy." or "You're innocent, so you shouldn't be suspended." Seems like the only way for a reduction would be a change in league policy.

That leads me to believe that McNair has some form of new evidence that he believes will prove that Cushing was indeed clean. I hope that's the case. :fingers crossed:

That's the same way I feel. I don't think it can be reduced. It's either that you're guilty and you get the suspension, or you're innocent, and the evidence proves you didn't take anything, so you're not suspended. My gut feeling is that there is obviously some sory of "knock it out of the park" type of evidence that they are going to provide to the commish. Otherwise, why beat this dead horse? I'd love to see the evidence show that he was innocent and all of those people that screamed for his head and the stripping of his DROY title to have to eat their words.

MojoMan
08-09-2010, 08:26 AM
Sounds like somebody is awful close to 49.

Just keep running your yap, big guy. :)

You just wait. In what feels like a couple of weeks from now, and much to your surprise, you will find yourself closing in on 49 yourself. You'll see.

Texan_Bill
08-09-2010, 08:31 AM
Here's my take:

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/08/bob_mcnair_tries_to_get_brian.html

There's tons of stuff that hasn't been reported relating to this case. Because 1. he and his lawyers weren't talking; 2. everybody assumed he was lying so why pursue this more?

If I were totally guessing, I'd say it is the pituitary angle. There were allusions to a pituitary procedure he got in college. Basically, there's a procedure that can be done on an outpatient basis that can tell if an enlarged pituitary is a problem or not a problem. Maybe he had a problem that wasn't something that was dangerous but does create false positives. As I've been told, the test that the NFL uses cannot detect the difference between male, natural hCG and outside sources, though there are expensive tests that can detect that difference.

Total speculation. Maybe they share the info, maybe they don't.

Mr. Stradley is a lucky, lucky man!!

Great read Steph and as always, thank-you!!

J_R
08-09-2010, 09:05 AM
Peter King's MMQB:

Introducing America to "Overtrained Athlete Syndrome."
HOUSTON -- The owner of the Houston Texans, Bob McNair, told me he believes his young linebacker, reigning NFL defensive rookie of the year Brian Cushing, is not guilty of taking a performance-enhancer called hCG. To that end, McNair plans to appeal Cushing's four-game suspension to commissioner Roger Goodell today in New York, according to Mark Berman of Fox 26 in Houston.

The NFL claims Cushing did test positive last September, and after a lengthy appeals process banned him for the first four games of the 2011 season. The NFL has been very clear about the rules of its program covering performance-enhancing substances, and I'd be surprised if the four-game ban would be adjusted by Goodell, regardless of McNair's arguments.

In an interview here Friday, Cushing said he thinks he knows why he tested positive for elevated levels of hCG. "Everything points to that overtrained athlete syndrome,'' Cushing said, walking back to the Texans' locker room after their afternoon practice. "I'm pretty sure it is. I'm pretty positive. I didn't take anything. It's not a tainted supplement. So all roads lead to that.''

The syndrome results from athletes training intensely for a long period, with the possibility of a testosterone imbalance resulting when an athlete stops training. I must stress the word "possibility,'' because no player in the history of the NFL substance-abuse program before
Cushing tested positive for the higher level of hCG. The widespread belief in NFL circles was that a player who tests positive for hCG would be a steroid user trying to re-start regular testosterone production after it has been interrupted in a cycle of steroid use.

Rumors of steroid use have dogged Cushing since his high-school days in New Jersey, and followed him to USC. Despite the evidence against him, Cushing has denied that he took hCG. And Friday, his employer agreed.

"He shows no sign of ever having been on steroids,'' McNair said. "His weight hasn't changed appreciably since he's been with us. I've looked into it pretty thoroughly, and I haven't found anything that would lead me to believe that he has ever taken a performance-enhancing drug.''
Cushing said he is "well aware'' that the American public probably won't believe this claim. I think most people will view it as a dog-ate-my-homework defense. "It's tough when you know what kind of discipline you have, and what kind of work ethic you have, and the whole world doesn't believe you, and is against you. It's frustrating. But I know that the quickest way to answer all of this is by production on the field,'' Cushing said.

In other words, he needs to keep testing clean for any PEDs, and he needs to play well for the public to think he's playing clean. "The funny part -- well, not funny, really -- is that my worst month playing football last year was September, and that's when I tested positive. I had five or six tests after that. All negative,'' he said.

On Friday, Cushing sounded like he was resigned to playing a 12-game season and being the best player he could be for those 12.

"There is no question in my mind I'll be a better football player than I was last season,' he said. "I'm going into my second year. The plays I'm making on the practice field this year compared to
last year, I'm so much more of a well-rounded football player than I was.''

I expect Cushing to come back possessed. We all do. Whether there's anything to this latest wrinkle is something I'll be following up on in the coming days, but the only way fans will look at Cushing as a great player is if he stays clean. For years..


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/08/08/mmqb/index.html?eref=sihp#ixzz0w7LH4mQu

thunderkyss
08-09-2010, 09:10 AM
I must stress the word "possibility,'' because no player in the history of the NFL substance-abuse program before Cushing tested positive for the higher level of hCG.

That can't be right.

RTP2110
08-09-2010, 09:16 AM
That can't be right.

I agree. If it's never happened, then why did the league change the pass/fail level on the test?

HOU-TEX
08-09-2010, 09:57 AM
Good luck, McNair. "Fight for the right".....for Cushing to whoop that ass a full 16.

Clamp
08-09-2010, 10:09 AM
I wondered what the "personal business" that Cush had to take care of last Wednesday. Not unheard of but personal business isn't offered often as a reason for a player's absence. Betting it had to do with McNair's appeal on his behalf. IMHO. Just sayin'.

I had heard that his aunt died within the last week or so. I dont know exactly when but that is probably why he was out of town.

Ryan
08-09-2010, 10:09 AM
Anyone know when this meeting will take place?

Texan_Bill
08-09-2010, 10:11 AM
Good luck, McNair. "Fight for the right".....for Cushing to whoop that ass a full 19.

Fixed. You left a couple of playoff games and the Super Bowl off your original post. :pirate:

J_R
08-09-2010, 10:14 AM
Anyone know when this meeting will take place?

Today. McNair flying to NY. Cushing(& Bob) says they do have new evidence to present.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"A brand new PED excuse"


In sports, everyone is a winner-some people just win better than others. Like our nation's poor, overtrained athletes like Brian Cushing, who says he flunked his drug test only because he worked out so hard.

We've heard an awful lot of excuses from athletes about why they tested positive for this or that substance. I didn't know what I was taking. It wasn't labeled correctly. I was trying to get pregnant (or whatever Manny Ramirez said). But this is a new one.

Houston Texans owner Bob McNair is meeting with Roger Goodell today, appealing LB Brian Cushing's four-game suspension for suspected PED usage. The explanation they're going with: something called "overtrained athlete syndrome."

Supposedly, when an athlete works out long and hard for a period of time, and then suddenly stops, his body's hCG levels spike. (Human chorionic gonadotropin, what Cushing tested positive for, is usually used as part of a steroid cycle to jumpstart testosterone levels.)
Everything points to that overtrained athlete syndrome,'' Cushing said (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com//2010/writers/peter_king/08/08/mmqb/index.html), walking back to the Texans' locker room after their afternoon practice. "I'm pretty sure it is. I'm pretty positive. I didn't take anything. It's not a tainted supplement. So all roads lead to that.''
Well, no, Brian. No roads lead to that. Remember how Cushing tested positive last September? It's highly unlikely (and would actually reflect worse on him than taking steroids) that at the end of training camp, just as he was about to play his first NFL games, he decided to stop working out.

Besides, from the scant research that exists on overtrained athlete syndrome, the primary symptom appears to be "sudden and profound chronic fatigue." (http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2010/06/xmrv_and_antiretrovirals_1.php) There's a lot of text on that page, but I didn't find "winning rookie of the year" as a secondary symptom.

It seems like Cushing's continuing to flail for a reason that doesn't involve him taking steroids. First, it was him deciding he must have had a tumor. (That makes him no better than the Canadian woman accused of faking cancer to raise money for herself (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/08/08/kirilow-cancer.html).)

Then, according to the Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7145062.html), Cushing "traveled the country visiting specialists...hoping to find a doctor who can prove hCG was produced naturally in his body." It's a year later, and he apparently hasn't found a doctor willing or able to back him up on that.

Let it go, Brian. This is the NFL. No one cares about steroids. If they did, they wouldn't have voted you ROY a second time, even after your failed test was made public. We'd be pleasantly surprised if Cushing quietly made it known to the league that he's not going to fight his suspension, because the positive test was caused by him taking performance enhancing drugs.

That'd be an explanation we haven't heard before.


http://deadspin.com/5608128/weekend-winner-a-brand-new-ped-excuse

Ole Miss Texan
08-09-2010, 10:19 AM
Today. McNair flying to NY. Cushing(& Bob) says they do have new evidence to present.

Awesome. Hopefully this "new evidence" (1) is enough to overturn the suspension (2) will help nullify a suspension IF Cushing ever happens to test positive for hCG again and (3) is not related to any serious health issues.

I'm liking the fact that Bob is putting himself "out there" in defending Cushing.

Ole Miss Texan
08-09-2010, 10:28 AM
Another thing to keep in mind: In order to actually overturn the suspension, it's pretty much got to be proved that what caused the failed test was not from an outside source and actually was naturally produced. Just offering up viable explanations or even having doctors testifying about different ways this can naturally happen doesn't prove that's what happened in Cushing's situation. The burden is on Cushing. If it is this "overtrained athlete syndrome" Cushing probably has to be monitored by NFL medical staff and show (probably more than once) that his training can produce that level of hCG again. Even in doing so, it doesn't prove that this was the reason for the failed test 12 months ago. I don't see how Goodell could do anything if this is the evidence being presented. It MAY help if Cushing ever tests positive again (maybe?) but it doesn't prove anything for the past failed test that I can gather.

houstonspartan
08-09-2010, 10:30 AM
I agree with everything you've posted here. But I caution, this kind of attitude from McNair extends to the treatment of David Carr, Kris Brown, and Dunta Robinson. As bad as they were (or eventually became), they were here from the beginning, and McNair believes (seemingly) that he owes them something.



Very, very good point.

HOU-TEX
08-09-2010, 10:33 AM
IMO, McNair better be toting a lot of medical proof into the meeting room with Goodell. Otherwise, I don't think he stands a chance if they truly are going with this "over-trained athlete" stuff.

J_R
08-09-2010, 10:33 AM
I had heard that his aunt died within the last week or so. I dont know exactly when but that is probably why he was out of town.

Another aunt died? I think you got your times mixed up. ;)

Cjeremy635
08-09-2010, 10:42 AM
IMO, McNair better be toting a lot of medical proof into the meeting room with Goodell. Otherwise, I don't think he stands a chance if they truly are going with this "over-trained athlete" stuff.

Yeah, I don't either.

J_R
08-09-2010, 11:13 AM
ChronicleTexans (http://twitter.com/ChronicleTexans)

AP: Suspended Texans LB Brian Cushing says his positive test for a fertility drug was the result of overtraining

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7145715.html


Suspended Houston Texans linebacker Brian Cushing says his positive test for a fertility drug was the result of overtraining.

Cushing is suspended for the first four games this season after testing positive last September for HCG, a drug on the league’s banned substance list. Cushing says he never took the drug, which can be used to restart testosterone production after a steroid cycle, and has no idea how it got into his body.

Cushing worked out with his team on Monday morning. He says doctors have told him that the failed drug test resulted from “overtrained athlete syndrome,” a condition that he says can trigger hormonal spikes.

Texans owner Bob McNair flew to New York on Monday to meet with NFL commissioner Roger Goodell in hopes of getting Cushing’s punishment reduced. The league denied Cushing’s appeal of the suspension in February.

Rey
08-09-2010, 11:29 AM
Good luck with that Brian and Bob.

Jackie Chiles
08-09-2010, 11:40 AM
Anyone catch the other mentions of the Texans on MMQB?

"It was in the best interests of Schobel that the Bills released him; it gives a 32-year-old defensive end a chance to play for a winner, or to play for a team closer to his home near Houston. But it was not in Buffalo's best interests to release a guy, instead of waiting until a team in camp got desperate for an eight- to 12-sack player and would pay a draft choice to get him."

Ouch. Guess I can't get too bent out of shape till we do something. He also apparently prefers Fitz over Andre, but that shouldn't be a surprise seeing as he picked Vincent Jackson and Wes Welker over Dre on his All-Pro team. Would just love to see Andre bust out and go for about 1600 and 15 TDs this year and have a couple fantastic post-season games. Week one cannot get here soon enough.

Jackie Chiles
08-09-2010, 11:47 AM
I agree. If it's never happened, then why did the league change the pass/fail level on the test?

This is an area I would love some clarification on.

Solomon mentioned this in his blog, anyone think Cushing and the team should take the next step and bring this into court? Is it even a possibility? If they did would it delay the suspension?

J_R
08-09-2010, 12:01 PM
Cushing recently told Sports Illustrated’s Peter King (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com//2010/writers/peter_king/08/08/mmqb/index.html) that he believes he tested positive for hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin), the result of his suspension, because of something called “overtrained athletes syndrome.”

“I think that’s the final diagnosis we came up with, and a lot of doctors have supported why this has happened,” Cushing said to Houston media on Monday. “It’s basically where any time you take a leave of absence, you kind of get a hormonal spike – not very high at all. That’s basically as far as I can go right now.


“… I think every individual’s different. I think every individual is genetically different. I had a unique situation where something like this occurred, and we have, really, the science to back it up... We’ve gone in-depth and a lot of money spent on the research, and there’s been a lot of interesting results, I think, that can help us.”


Cushing said that whenever his suspension ends, he’ll return to the field with plenty of resolve to prove that it’s just a blip on the radar screen of his NFL career.


“That’s my goal, there’s no question about it,” he said. “I’m going to play this game for a long time. There’s no doubt in my mind about that. I’ve got 12 games I’ve got to get ready for. Whatever the decision is made today, I’ve got to respect the decision of the commissioner. I’m playing in his league, and like I’ve said, I’ve got to help this team get ready for Week 1. I have to get ready for whenever I’m back on the field.”


Regardless of the result of McNair’s meeting with Goodell, Texans coach Gary Kubiakhttp://assets.houstontexans.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://boards.houstontexans.com/#) reflected on the team owner’s steadfast support of Cushing since the suspension was announced in May.


“I think it’s tremendous,” Kubiak said. “It’s what our game is about. He believes in his players, and his players play hard for him. What more could you ask for as a player? In anything – not just this business, anything – you go work your tail off for somebody every day, and regardless of what you do for a living, you’d like to know the guy up top has your back. He definitely has this football team’s back.”


http://www.houstontexans.com/blog/index.asp?post_id=1304

IDEXAN
08-09-2010, 12:14 PM
McNair and Cushing know the commissioner isn’t likely to reduce or overturn the suspension. In his two-hour meeting with Goodell, McNair is hoping to lay the groundwork to head off another positive test that could result in a year-long suspension.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7145715.html
OK then, this trip to NYC by McNair is more to prevent another suspension rather than getting the first one reversed.
But if the league buys the agrument, why wouldn't it apply to both the existing suspension and any potential suspension in the future ?

J_R
08-09-2010, 12:18 PM
Enter CnD with his expert opinion. ;)


While Houston Texans (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/hou/;_ylt=ApUu.90JFKPsx_VFSZw1zFbSrYZ4) linebacker Brian Cushing (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9279/;_ylt=ApIDk2wigfDidDgj5TBXBufSrYZ4)(notes) (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9279/news;_ylt=Al2zPyBIqk3vNJnCluUWjj7SrYZ4) continues to proclaim his innocence in the face of his positive PED test (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Cushing-could-lose-Defensive-Rookie-of-the-Year-;_ylt=AljhUw8TU1jEnL3OT1pntF_SrYZ4?urn=nfl-239999) last September, and with Texans owner Bob McNair meeting with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell today (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkYbqA83.VpMG6K1N16LoArSrYZ4?slug=ap-texans-cushing) to discuss the possibility of reducing Cushing's four-game suspension, Cushing has what he believes is a new reason for his test results. Cushing tested positive for HCG (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AvRpq6s.6OkFB5BjbgjvR9rSrYZ4/SIG=11uessq2p/**http%3A//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_chorionic_gonadotropin) (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin), a drug that can be used to restart testosterone production after a steroid cycle. After consulting with doctors, Cushing told SI.com's Peter King (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AswvcYNq_WqKfxltmOHFDQHSrYZ4/SIG=12j4ijn2a/**http%3A//sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/08/08/mmqb/index.html) that his test was the result of "Overtrained Athlete Syndrome".
In an interview here Friday, Cushing said he thinks he knows why he tested positive for elevated levels of HCG. "Everything points to that syndrome,'' Cushing said, walking back to the Texans' locker room after their afternoon practice. "I'm pretty sure it is. I'm pretty positive. I didn't take anything. It's not a tainted supplement. So all roads lead to that.''
The syndrome results from athletes training intensely for a long period, with the possibility of a testosterone imbalance resulting when an athlete stops training. I must stress the word "possibility,'' because no player in the history of the NFL substance-abuse program before Cushing tested positive for the higher level of HCG. The widespread belief in NFL circles was that a player who tests positive for HCG would be a steroid user trying to re-start regular testosterone production after it has been interrupted in a cycle of steroid use.
But according to another doctor familiar with the NFL's testing methods, "OAS" (or whatever people might want to call it from now on) is not what McNair, Cushing, and Cushing's representatives should be focusing on. I spoke with Dr. David Black of Aegis Sciences Corporation on Monday morning. According to its website (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=Apy9KrtTbNv9GtBq4Rn4GFjSrYZ4/SIG=118r1tsf8/**http%3A//aegislabs.com/aegislabs.aspx), Aegis provides "Zero-Tolerance Drug Testing® for businesses, professional and amateur sports drug testing, pain management physicians, and medical examiners."

And from what Dr. Black told me, contesting the test should be more about the process then the result. "The way in which HCG testing is conducted in sports is that they use a combination of two screening tests," Dr. Black said. "They don't use what we would practically consider to be a confirmatory test in forensic testing. They give one test and if they have an elevated answer (result), they run a second screening test. The belief is that the two screening tests will show the elevated HCG, but that's not standard practice in forensic drug testing. Forensic drug testing would require a confirmatory test that is based on a second and different technology than the screening test. So, the question, I think, would still undecided as to whether or not the test results indicate use of HCG, or whether or not this is a true violation of the program."

Dr. Black told me that the screening test technology is based on an antibody-based test -- "these antibodies are developed that can recognize the possible presence of a drug or chemical. These kinds of screening tests are used for all sorts of drug testing. But the standard practice in forensic drug testing is that if you have a positive, you then want to use a confirmatory technology, and the confirmatory technology that is accepted in the court systems is called Mass Spectrometry. This is a much more elegant, sophisticated, and definite way of identifying if something is truly present. Screening tests are generally good to show then something is not present. If you really want to show that something is present, you use confirmatory test technology."

So, the NFL does not use Mass Spectrometry? "Not in this test. The NFL uses Mass Spectrometry In virtually all other tests, For this test, they just use the combination of the two different screening tests, which should not be standard practice for identifying if someone has used HCG. This is the way the Anti-Doping Agency approaches testing for this particular compound, and the NFL has generally adopted their approach. But because there are so few [non-negative results], and there's a lot of expense in conducting a Mass Spectrometry test, some scientists believe that it's acceptable. But this would certainly not be acceptable if it were a cocaine positive, or any other drug. If it were any other drug, it would require Mass Spectrometry identification."

Dr. Black also told me that he has testified to the NFL about the need for confirmatory tests in the case of another player, but the hearing panel disregarded his comments. "If I were testing an employee in some [business/professional] setting where HCG were not allowed ... if I tried to use this data to have them lose their jobs, it would not be accepted. I have argued that this is not acceptable practice in forensic drug testing, but [the NFL has] adopted this approach. It is not consistent with Federal or workplace testing programs. And almost all other drugs that are tested for in sports require Mass Spectrometry identification."


Dr. Black did not dismiss the "Overttrained Athlete Syndrome" concept, but said that he is not familiar enough with the syndrome to comment. "I don't know that there's any good evidence to suggest that this syndrome could lead to elevated HCG in the body, if that's what this test really indicates."

And that's really the question. How was Cushing tested, and are those results confirmatory? According to Dr. Black, the best that can be gathered from the antibody tests is a non-negative - that is, something has been identified. If the NFL is still not using Mass Spectrometry to determine whether HCG is present, the league is doing itself and its players a grave disservice.

And if that's the case, Brian Cushing may have one more option.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/-quot-Overtrained-Athlete-Syndrome-quot-isn-t-C?urn=nfl-261207

gtexan02
08-09-2010, 12:19 PM
McNair and Cushing know the commissioner isn’t likely to reduce or overturn the suspension. In his two-hour meeting with Goodell, McNair is hoping to lay the groundwork to head off another positive test that could result in a year-long suspension.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7145715.html
OK then, this trip to NYC by McNair is more to prevent another suspension rather than getting the first one reversed.
But if the league buys the agrument, why wouldn't it apply to both the existing suspension and any potential suspension in the future ?

I think its because the NFL has a policy for how this is handled.

You test positive, you get to appeal that. Cushing took advantage of this appeal, took it for almost a year, and finally lost that appeal. Therefore, the susepension stands. Why didnt he bring this information to the appeal?

Its like the legal justice system. If you lose your trial,a nd then your appeal, I believe theres a certain time limit you have to wait before you can reappeal. Even if you find new evidence, youve still got to sit in jail until you can legally appeal a 2nd time.

Same with Cushing

eriadoc
08-09-2010, 12:24 PM
Roger Clemens is pissed he didn't think of this.

Ole Miss Texan
08-09-2010, 12:27 PM
McNair and Cushing know the commissioner isn’t likely to reduce or overturn the suspension. In his two-hour meeting with Goodell, McNair is hoping to lay the groundwork to head off another positive test that could result in a year-long suspension.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7145715.html
OK then, this trip to NYC by McNair is more to prevent another suspension rather than getting the first one reversed.
But if the league buys the agrument, why wouldn't it apply to both the existing suspension and any potential suspension in the future ?

This is the only thing I could really think why this meeting would be made. If the league buys this arguement, it may not apply to Cushing's failed test last year because it doesn't prove that this is the reason why he tested positive. All it may prove is that a player could test positive because of "overtrained athlete syndrome".

I still don't think there can be any evidence that states 100% this is why it occurred. Unless you film the player 24/7 as well as film the testing of any food, drink, supplement that he takes/injests as well as the secured transportation of said food/supplement from testing to its injestation....

I think all this "new evidence" may do is say, "hey, Brian Cushing is a friggin stud and may test positive for higher level of hCG than most other athletes because he's a friggin stud. He's not "taking" any banned substances. He may test positive again and get suspended... but you're banning him from playing the game because he's a natural beast. Also, while you're at it, please suspend Andre Johnson for unfairly being a beast wideout. Although he hasn't tested positive for any illegal/banned substance, his natural beast-like abilities make it unfair for any defensive player in the game." says McNair....

Hervoyel
08-09-2010, 12:40 PM
Roger Clemens is pissed he didn't think of this.

Roger tested positive due to "Overfed Athlete Syndrome"

badboy
08-09-2010, 12:54 PM
So..if Cush is over training and the other NFL players did not get this whatever it is are they under training or training just right? Cush lost his appeal and now McNair gets another appeal? Hmm. And I read that Cush said he was not changing anything he had been doing, well he just might have another positive test to discuss and maybe Bob is trying to head that off.

keyser
08-09-2010, 01:22 PM
From the quoted article:

And from what Dr. Black told me, contesting the test should be more about the process then the result.

The thing is, I think Cushing is saying "Yes, I did have elevated levels, but they are naturally occurring." The process this is describing is one in which you would contest the test result itself, i.e. making a defense that "My levels were not really elevated, it's just that the test was incorrect." By taking the first defense, it hurts the ability to take the second one.

Señor Stan
08-09-2010, 01:41 PM
Roger tested positive due to "Overfed Athlete Syndrome"

I don't care who you are...that's funny right there

GP
08-09-2010, 01:42 PM
If he tests positive again, it's going to be a nightmare. Period.

I don't care if he then presents a court case to head off the 1-year suspension. It's going to be a nightmare.

We don't know what he's doing or not doing. We don't know if it truly is a medical anomaly or he's trying to work the angles via juicing and finding ways to get around it. We just don't know.

All I know is that we might be drafting a LB in round 1 of the next draft if this guy can't stay out of the principal's office.

I'm to the point where I can't read any more analysis on this. To me, it's just cut and dry: Either he's going to be here, or he's not, and we better find a way to move on if he's not.

So much drama. This is like a soap opera. Remember when Stefano, on Days of Our Lives would die, then be back in a year or two, then he dies, and he somehow comes back again? That's this, but within the sports world. Please, Brian, find a way to give us closure on this. If you're for real, then I sincerely hope you find answers that helps you endure. If you're not for real, then so be it (which means you'll be the biggest bust ever, and will be a bigger goat than Dunta or Carr).

Cjeremy635
08-09-2010, 01:44 PM
If he tests positive again, it's going to be a nightmare. Period.

I don't care if he then presents a court case to head off the 1-year suspension. It's going to be a nightmare.

We don't know what he's doing or not doing. We don't know if it truly is a medical anomaly or he's trying to work the angles via juicing and finding ways to get around it. We just don't know.

All I know is that we might be drafting a LB in round 1 of the next draft if this guy can't stay out of the principal's office.

I'm to the point where I can't read any more analysis on this. To me, it's just cut and dry: Either he's going to be here, or he's not, and we better find a way to move on if he's not.

So much drama. This is like a soap opera. Remember when Stefano, on Days of Our Lives would die, then be back in a year or two, then he dies, and he somehow comes back again? That's this, but within the sports world. Please, Brian, find a way to give us closure on this. If you're for real, then I sincerely hope you find answers that helps you endure. If you're not for real, then so be it (which means you'll be the biggest bust ever, and will be a bigger goat than Dunta or Carr).

And you know this how? :gun:

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2566/mancard.jpg

Texanmike02
08-09-2010, 01:46 PM
Remember when Stefano, on Days of Our Lives would die, then be back in a year or two, then he dies, and he somehow comes back again?

I'll PM you with my address. We need to make sure your man card is properly disposed of.

Mike

GP
08-09-2010, 01:55 PM
And you know this how? :gun:

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2566/mancard.jpg

Because your girlfriend told me.

Look, I have a problem with elevated levels of hCG due to over-training. Happens to the best of us, cjeremy. ;)

You guys will NEVER get my man card. NEVER.

Cjeremy635
08-09-2010, 01:59 PM
Because your girlfriend told me.

Look, I have a problem with elevated levels of hCG due to over-training. Happens to the best of us, cjeremy. ;)

You guys will NEVER get my man card. NEVER.

http://nylawblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/05/drevil.jpg

You'll give up the card or have to deal with the "frickin' sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their frickin' heads".

Señor Stan
08-09-2010, 02:15 PM
Because your girlfriend told me.

Look, I have a problem with elevated levels of hCG due to over-training. Happens to the best of us, cjeremy. ;)

You guys will NEVER get my man card. NEVER.

Oh yeah?!?!?!? We'll send Edward and the Cullen family of vampires, because they are super fast and sparkle and they can hunt you down and take your man car.....err....wait a minute.....move along....nothing to see here.

SouthSideTexan
08-09-2010, 02:17 PM
Either reduce the suspension or change the schedule .

I agree. Cut out at least 2 games or change the schedule. Wishful thinking......or maybe a hurricane again around the 3rd week of Sept.

Cjeremy635
08-09-2010, 02:18 PM
Oh yeah?!?!?!? We'll send Edward and the Cullen family of vampires, because they are super fast and sparkle and they can hunt you down and take your man car.....err....wait a minute.....move along....nothing to see here.

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww196/RyanW12/pending-stamp.png

Señor Stan
08-09-2010, 02:26 PM
http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww196/RyanW12/pending-stamp.png


Did I ever tell y'all about the time I TIG welded an aluminum can to a door knob?

Texanmike02
08-09-2010, 02:59 PM
I'll PM you with my address. We need to make sure your man card is properly disposed of.

Mike

In other news, GP's dad is appealing to the central office of man card distrobution. GP, you will remember had his man card pulled for four weeks for a soap opera reference and then a pregnancy test failure. His dad came to the rescue; defencing him claiming that watching soap opera's is part of his natural condition. The elevated Hcg levels in his tests were the result of steroid use an not because he is pregnant. The test is not 100% fool proof though and men are warned when they fail this test to get them selves tested. About 20% of the men who fail this test grow chesticles.


I think its great to see this. I doubt the overturn it cause it sets a dangerous precident. At the same time, if he ever makes a soap opera reference in the future.. his elevated hgc levels will be noted and he might have a defense in the future.

No doubt he's a solid contributor and the board needs him around. At the same time, I hope he spends 4 weeks without his card... The alternative likely means he'll have chesticles...

Mike

gg no re
08-09-2010, 03:22 PM
Jesus Christ guys, get off GP's back. Or better yet, join the party! If ya'll followed Days of Our Lives like GP and I do, you'd know Stefano was always wrecking people's business, particularly the Bradys, just like Pollard.

http://annabella123.tripod.com/stefano3.jpg

Wolf
08-09-2010, 04:05 PM
If I read some posts right some are speculating that McNair is laying the groundwork for the if Cush tests positive, then the Texans have some sort of excuse.

I don't buy that. McNair seems like a straight shooter and one if you treat him right , he will treat you right. He cares about his players but I don't see him going to bat for them and defend their actions if they screwed up. He will try to help support them and help them with any issues.

I also imagine McNair and Cushing (and doctors) had long and serious talks before McNair decided to stick his neck out .. I might be naive. I would find it hard to believe (or hope not) that Cushing would flat out lie to McNair about PED's and if it turns out he did and I imagine we won't be worrying about Cushing getting another contract with the Texans or be in the league.. so problem solved (BTW how many times over the last 2 or 3 years has Cushing been tested? and passed? either he is really good or hey, he might not be lying)

I think when people think of Cushing, they have the image of that guy from "The Program"(can't think of the guys name in that movie)

Wolf
08-09-2010, 04:06 PM
If I read some posts right some are speculating that McNair is laying the groundwork for the if Cush tests positive, then the Texans have some sort of excuse.

I don't buy that. McNair seems like a straight shooter and one if you treat him right , he will treat you right. He cares about his players but I don't see him going to bat for them and defend their actions if they screwed up. He will try to help support them and help them with any issues.

I also imagine McNair and Cushing (and doctors) had long and serious talks before McNair decided to stick his neck out .. I might be naive. I would find it hard to believe (or hope not) that Cushing would flat out lie to McNair about PED's and if it turns out he did and I imagine we won't be worrying about Cushing getting another contract with the Texans or be in the league.. so problem solved (BTW how many times over the last 2 or 3 years has Cushing been tested? and passed? either he is really good or hey, he might not be lying)

I think when people think of Cushing, they have the image of that guy from "The Program"(can't think of the guys name in that movie)

I do think that maybe this meeting more about 1) possible reduction of cushing's suspension (which I doubt will happen, due to this is pretty standard) and 2) possibly different types of testing for PED's

But I have been known to be wrong many many times

HOU-TEX
08-09-2010, 04:15 PM
Steve Lattimer

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PuZoLkvmBbc/SYpKo3NVu5I/AAAAAAAACZo/ivWEtfCHnVo/s320/Steve+Lattimer.bmp

HuttoKarl
08-09-2010, 04:40 PM
If he tests positive again, it's going to be a nightmare. Period.

I don't care if he then presents a court case to head off the 1-year suspension. It's going to be a nightmare.

We don't know what he's doing or not doing. We don't know if it truly is a medical anomaly or he's trying to work the angles via juicing and finding ways to get around it. We just don't know.

All I know is that we might be drafting a LB in round 1 of the next draft if this guy can't stay out of the principal's office.

I'm to the point where I can't read any more analysis on this. To me, it's just cut and dry: Either he's going to be here, or he's not, and we better find a way to move on if he's not.

So much drama. This is like a soap opera. Remember when Stefano, on Days of Our Lives would die, then be back in a year or two, then he dies, and he somehow comes back again? That's this, but within the sports world. Please, Brian, find a way to give us closure on this. If you're for real, then I sincerely hope you find answers that helps you endure. If you're not for real, then so be it (which means you'll be the biggest bust ever, and will be a bigger goat than Dunta or Carr).

And how did Roman fall off a cliff and die but come back as a skinnier, taller guy? So many questions...so few answers.

My mom and grandmother and sister watched that show religiously in a single TV household...I just wanted to watch Sesame Street and reruns of the Monkees.

Cjeremy635
08-09-2010, 05:00 PM
I wish I had more info to give, but I did just hear Goodell talk about this a little bit on the radio during my drive home. He was on 610, apparently they are going to have an open forum discussion between Goodell and Texan's season ticket holders later this evening. Anyways, the radio guy asked him about the meeting with McNair and Roger was REALLY vague. He said that they always welcome these types of meetings. He also stated that McNair brought several representatives with him at his own request (that being McNair's). He also said that they want to make sure that they are making the right decision in every circumstance and that not everyone is the same (paraphrasing here). I took that to mean that not everyone's body chemistry is the same. He made no indication that he was going to reopen this appeal or overturn it. Again, he was vague. Hopefully more will be released.

Texanmike02
08-09-2010, 05:06 PM
Jesus Christ guys, get off GP's back. Or better yet, join the party! If ya'll followed Days of Our Lives like GP and I do, you'd know Stefano was always wrecking people's business, particularly the Bradys, just like Pollard.

http://annabella123.tripod.com/stefano3.jpg


... Apparently there is a rash of man card abuses. The Texans Talk board may start the season without contributions from key members of their discussions. It appears that there "Hook'em" was unaware that several of the members of his team were getting together during the off-season and watching soaps together. "GG NO Re" had tears coming down his face when he was interviewed saying that "Stefano is just like Pollard". -- My advice? Expect GP and now GG NO RE to be warming up for the man season by commenting on the CFL while their man card is pulled


Dude... after reading that, I'm glad I'm not in H-town right now. Maybe there's a lot of HCG in the water?

Mike

(by the way, I hope noone is offended by these... I just thought it would put this all in perspective. And if you are offended, PM and I'll make sure to send you a self addressed/stamped envelope so we can start your suspension)

Wolf
08-09-2010, 05:12 PM
uhhh yeah, uhh we might need a smiley now

http://www.nflfans.com/x/images/smilies/q/mancard.gif

http://www.nflfans.com/x/gallery/files/2/3/texans.gif



and as far as the begining of the cushing deal (when they reported steroids instead of PED's) ..
http://www.nflfans.com/x/images/smilies/q/koolaid.gif

:joker:

Ole Miss Texan
08-09-2010, 05:18 PM
and as far as the begining of the cushing deal (when they reported steroids instead of PED's) ..
http://www.nflfans.com/x/images/smilies/q/koolaid.gif

I'm still reading that hCG is used as a masking agent that hides the use of steroids...

Kimmy
08-09-2010, 05:23 PM
Cush should have just kept his mouth SHUT! First it was his surgery in college, then he thought it was a tumor, now it's overtrained athlete syndrome??? OMG -- he looks like a big, fat, liar ....

And, if as someone suggested this is to ward off future positive test, then IDK what to type ....

Big Lou
08-09-2010, 05:25 PM
This is the first time I've ever seen a reference to Days of our Live's, or any other Daytime Soap on an NFL Board.

I don't even really know where to go with that............... :cricket:


Not dissin GP or anything like that, just don't know what to say.......................

:cricket: :cricket: :cricket:


:cricket:

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 05:38 PM
Cush should have just kept his mouth SHUT! First it was his surgery in college, then he thought it was a tumor, now it's overtrained athlete syndrome??? OMG -- he looks like a big, fat, liar ....

And, if as someone suggested this is to ward off future positive test, then IDK what to type ....

Why? Why does he look like a liar?

He gets a letter from the NFL saying "Hey, you've tested positive for hCG, you're going to be suspended... You may have a tumor, get yourself checked out." (That's basically what the letter from the NFL says, from what I've heard.) So... IF Cush knows that he didn't take anything, then Cush thinks he has a tumor. He's worried about it. He goes to a bunch of doctors. And he comes back clean.

He gets tested several times after the positive test and he comes back negative for hCG.

So he goes to a whole bunch of other doctors and they tell him it could be because of the way he trains. And he gets medical/scientific verification of that.

There's nothing in the course of events that makes it look like he's lying about any of that.

I'm not saying that he's not lying (although I see no reason in the world why he would take hCG.) And if it is possible to get hCG spikes because of workout regimen, then the whole thing does make sense.

Personally, I always thought this was really a side effect to something else he was taking. Something that most people don't know about. But if that's the case, then he should have just stopped taking it and kept his mouth shut and let the whole thing die down

For me, the fact that he's NOT keeping his mouth shut makes him seem more credible. I know that if I had tested positive to something that I hadn't taken, I wouldn't be keeping my mouth shut about it. (And I know a couple of people who've had extremely high testosterone levels without taking testosterone. They wouldn't have tested positive because their test/epitest ratios were OK but it's possible to have all sorts of weird hormonal imbalances.)

drs23
08-09-2010, 05:47 PM
Why? Why does he look like a liar?

He gets a letter from the NFL saying "Hey, you've tested positive for hCG, you're going to be suspended... You may have a tumor, get yourself checked out." (That's basically what the letter from the NFL says, from what I've heard.) So... IF Cush knows that he didn't take anything, then Cush thinks he has a tumor. He's worried about it. He goes to a bunch of doctors. And he comes back clean.

He gets tested several times after the positive test and he comes back negative for hCG.

So he goes to a whole bunch of other doctors and they tell him it could be because of the way he trains. And he gets medical/scientific verification of that.

There's nothing in the course of events that makes it look like he's lying about any of that.

I'm not saying that he's not lying (although I see no reason in the world why he would take hCG.) And if it is possible to get hCG spikes because of workout regimen, then the whole thing does make sense.

Personally, I always thought this was really a side effect to something else he was taking. Something that most people don't know about. But if that's the case, then he should have just stopped taking it and kept his mouth shut and let the whole thing die down

For me, the fact that he's NOT keeping his mouth shut makes him seem more credible. I know that if I had tested positive to something that I hadn't taken, I wouldn't be keeping my mouth shut about it. (And I know a couple of people who've had extremely high testosterone levels without taking testosterone. They wouldn't have tested positive because their test/epitest ratios were OK but it's possible to have all sorts of weird hormonal imbalances.)

Tell me. I was married to a ***** was afflicted with the dreaded hormone imbalance. Can you say: WHACK! So in love one second and then after ya with a butcher knife saying how much she loves ya. Yes, I can understand.

disaacks3
08-09-2010, 05:48 PM
Knowing that the amount to trigger the fail is unlikely unless:
A) You have a fairly easy to spot tumor....or
B) You took this as a masking agent at the end of a Steroid "cycle"

...means I have little sympathy to the failing of the test. I'm just not buying that Cushing is the first known false positive on the HcG test.

Why I have no issue with his suspension being "shortened":

A) By every report I've read, it was a test at the combine. Unless I'm mistaken, Brian Cushing wasn't a member of the NFLPA at that time. I've often wondered why that argument hasn't been made (on behalf of the players) to bolster their collusion arguments.

B) ZERO positive tests since and....what can I say? I'm a Texans fan and I want them to have the best chance to succeed.

BigTimeTexanFan
08-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Knowing that the amount to trigger the fail is unlikely unless:
A) You have a fairly easy to spot tumor....or
B) You took this as a masking agent at the end of a Steroid "cycle"

...means I have little sympathy to the failing of the test. I'm just not buying that Cushing is the first known false positive on the HcG test.

Why I have no issue with his suspension being "shortened":

A) By every report I've read, it was a test at the combine. Unless I'm mistaken, Brian Cushing wasn't a member of the NFLPA at that time. I've often wondered why that argument hasn't been made (on behalf of the players) to bolster their collusion arguments.

B) ZERO positive tests since and....what can I say? I'm a Texans fan and I want them to have the best chance to succeed.

I thought the test was in September and he passed several tests afterwards as well.

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2010, 06:07 PM
Enter CnD with his expert opinion. ;)



http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/-quot-Overtrained-Athlete-Syndrome-quot-isn-t-C?urn=nfl-261207


I really haven't had the time to respond to so many "issues" that have been spilled forward in defense of Cushing. But I have a few basic comments about Overtrained Athlete Syndrome. This is something that Rice has had interest in recent years. This isn't anything new. The concept has been around since the early 1920's, mostly in a derogatory performance context. Early on, overtraining athletes were basically coined as "stale." This term has been carried onto the present day for a reason. Rather than go through pages of explanation, I'll ask you, does "stale" describe Cushing to you?

Overtraining Syndrome, if you stop and think about it, is nothing exotic, but simply a subset of what we all know as "Chronic Stress." Anybody not experienced significant periods of chronic stress in their lives? [If you haven't, please call my office immediately and let me know your secret. You will be handsomely rewarded] Energy goes down, immunologic markers (immunity) go down, Cortisol goes up, testosterone goes down, insulin goes up, adrenaline goes up..........and on and on and on...........you may not even feel as good as "stale"......nowhere to be found in the medical literature, though, an effect on HCG production in a male.:shades:

infantrycak
08-09-2010, 06:07 PM
A) By every report I've read, it was a test at the combine. Unless I'm mistaken, Brian Cushing wasn't a member of the NFLPA at that time. I've often wondered why that argument hasn't been made (on behalf of the players) to bolster their collusion arguments.

He passed the pre-combine test and he passed the testosterone test just before his rookie season but failed the hcg test. This is why CnD and I had a long discussion about time lines and whether he may have used 18 months or so before the failed test (like before or during his last college season) and then supplemented hcg because he thought his marbles weren't the right size or functioning normally.

JamesBill
08-09-2010, 06:09 PM
http://memegenerator.net/Bobby/ImageMacro/1968766/LargeThumbnail.jpg

Number19
08-09-2010, 06:12 PM
That's the key element to the story. What is the new evidence, and is it compelling? :popcorn:I don't know what league policy is; I don't know what McNair's personal position would be; I don't know if he has the brass balls to do it; but if the evidence is solid enough, is the threat of a lawsuit a possibility?.

HouSportsWriter
08-09-2010, 06:39 PM
http://memegenerator.net/Bobby/ImageMacro/1968766/LargeThumbnail.jpg

lol!

By the way welcome to the fourm!

Number19
08-09-2010, 06:44 PM
Another thing to keep in mind: In order to actually overturn the suspension, it's pretty much got to be proved that what caused the failed test was not from an outside source and actually was naturally produced. Just offering up viable explanations or even having doctors testifying about different ways this can naturally happen doesn't prove that's what happened in Cushing's situation. The burden is on Cushing. If it is this "overtrained athlete syndrome" Cushing probably has to be monitored by NFL medical staff and show (probably more than once) that his training can produce that level of hCG again. Even in doing so, it doesn't prove that this was the reason for the failed test 12 months ago. I don't see how Goodell could do anything if this is the evidence being presented. It MAY help if Cushing ever tests positive again (maybe?) but it doesn't prove anything for the past failed test that I can gather.You just brought up a point I was about to post on; and that is, if the elevated level of hCG was naturally produced, then it could reoccur at any time. With what consequences? If McNair fails in his appeal, the possibility exists, however unlikely, that Cushing could be forced from football with further reoccurances. Am I over the top with this line of thinking? Maybe, but again, depending on the strength of the new evidence.......


(edit) Since posting the last two comments, and before I got to reading later posts, several posters have brought this up. I guess I'm not totally over the top.

krocket
08-09-2010, 06:52 PM
I don't know what league policy is; I don't know what McNair's personal position would be; I don't know if he has the brass balls to do it; but if the evidence is solid enough, is the threat of a lawsuit a possibility?.I would think McNair definitely has the balls for it, but that doesn't mean that he will. It probably depends on whether he thinks his science is correct and will stand up in court.

HouTxFan
08-09-2010, 06:53 PM
Welcome to the board, HouTxFan.

Don't let them give you a hard time. You gave me some "purple dot" rep in another thread, and I appreciated it. Actually, the dot shows up gray on my screen, but it is the same either way. All this means is that you are a new poster, and you do not have any rep power yet. I forget how that works precisely, but I believe you have to have a certain number of posts, 50 I think, before your rep votes add to the point total of the recipient. Also, your rep points received will not show to the left of your posts until you hit 50 posts either.

And for your information, 49 is not old, it is middle-aged. Moreover, with medical science progressing the way it has been, you could easily live another 49 years yet, just to provide a little perspective. If you want to see some old people around here, find Thorn, Red Zone or cuppacoffee. Those are a few of our resident oldsters, and all three of them age seniority over you - hands down. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think all three of them might be card carrying members of the AARP.

:) (Just having fun with you guys)

In any case, you are welcome here, and I hope you will continue to share your perspectives with us for many years to come.

Thanks Mr. Mojo. I appreciate the welcome...kinda thought I might should just pack up my walker and go back to lurking, but...
:texan: so I didn't really want to do that.

GP
08-09-2010, 06:58 PM
You just brought up a point I was about to post on; and that is, if the elevated level of hCG was naturally produced, then it could reoccur at any time. With what consequences? If McNair fails in his appeal, the possibility exists, however unlikely, that Cushing could be forced from football with further reoccurances. Am I over the top with this line of thinking? Maybe, but again, depending on the strength of the new evidence.......

I am worried this is a preemptive strike from McNair because POSSIBLY Cushing has already failed another test which hasn't been released yet.

Look at how long we didn't know about the failed test from the previous season.

Hopefully this is not the case. I'm just spit-ballin' here.

Big fan of Cushing, but am worried due to McNair going to these extremes in light of the odds that are stacked against Cushing. Either this is an owner trying to go to bat for his player, or it's an attempt to head off future problems or pending problems that haven't surfaced yet.

Wolf
08-09-2010, 07:03 PM
you make good points GP.. but why would McNair stick his neck out if one of his players is doing something illegal? (I know you are spitballing) .. just seems out of character for McNair (to me anyway)

but time will tell

Number19
08-09-2010, 07:04 PM
If I remember correctly, Cushing tested at elevated levels several times in the past, but the level calling for suspension was higher at that time. The league changed the rules to a lower level for accountability, and that was when Cushing got caught. Does anyone recall this?

(edit) Or maybe he was testing at elevated levels just below the maximum level?

(2nd edit) Found it : ...the facts most people are assuming about the test are wrong. He had measurable amounts of hCG in September but that wasn't a positive test because the B sample wasn't in high enough quantities. He had the true positive test (both A and B samples) in November...
http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/05/brian_cushing_confirmation_bia.html

Honoring Earl 34
08-09-2010, 07:16 PM
I am worried this is a preemptive strike from McNair because POSSIBLY Cushing has already failed another test which hasn't been released yet.

Look at how long we didn't know about the failed test from the previous season.

Hopefully this is not the case. I'm just spit-ballin' here.

Big fan of Cushing, but am worried due to McNair going to these extremes in light of the odds that are stacked against Cushing. Either this is an owner trying to go to bat for his player, or it's an attempt to head off future problems or pending problems that haven't surfaced yet.

You make a good point but I think McNair knows the first 4 games could determine the season . I think he believes if it's the right ends , it'll justify the means .

Texan_Bill
08-09-2010, 07:19 PM
so much drama. This is like a soap opera. Remember when stefano, on days of our lives would die, then be back in a year or two, then he dies, and he somehow comes back again? that's this, but within the sports world. Please, brian, find a way to give us closure on this. If you're for real, then i sincerely hope you find answers that helps you endure. If you're not for real, then so be it (which means you'll be the biggest bust ever, and will be a bigger goat than dunta or carr).

This is all about FAIL!

http://selinux.gave.me.this.remoteshell.org/fail-boat.jpg

Brando
08-09-2010, 07:27 PM
Steve Lattimer

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PuZoLkvmBbc/SYpKo3NVu5I/AAAAAAAACZo/ivWEtfCHnVo/s320/Steve+Lattimer.bmp


I thought that was Imatexanfan?

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8475
:kitten:

GuerillaBlack
08-09-2010, 07:27 PM
Thanks Mr. Mojo. I appreciate the welcome...kinda thought I might should just pack up my walker and go back to lurking, but...
:texan: so I didn't really want to do that.

No offense, but I don't think anyone was being rude. Pollardized was just wondering if you had given him negative rep, and then everyone said no, since you just didn't have the rep power for the dot to light up green yet. :)

michaelm
08-09-2010, 07:29 PM
I am worried this is a preemptive strike from McNair because POSSIBLY Cushing has already failed another test which hasn't been released yet.

Look at how long we didn't know about the failed test from the previous season.

Hopefully this is not the case. I'm just spit-ballin' here.

Big fan of Cushing, but am worried due to McNair going to these extremes in light of the odds that are stacked against Cushing. Either this is an owner trying to go to bat for his player, or it's an attempt to head off future problems or pending problems that haven't surfaced yet.



I see where you're coming from, but I'd think the purpose of McNair's visit would've been kept under cover if he was going there on a preemptive strike.

Kimmy
08-09-2010, 07:48 PM
I really haven't had the time to respond to so many "issues" that have been spilled forward in defense of Cushing. But I have a few basic comments about Overtrained Athlete Syndrome. This is something that Rice has had interest in recent years. This isn't anything new. The concept has been around since the early 1920's, mostly in a derogatory performance context. Early on, overtraining athletes were basically coined as "stale." This term has been carried onto the present day for a reason. Rather than go through pages of explanation, I'll ask you, does "stale" describe Cushing to you?

Overtraining Syndrome, if you stop and think about it, is nothing exotic, but simply a subset of what we all know as "Chronic Stress." Anybody not experienced significant periods of chronic stress in their lives? [If you haven't, please call my office immediately and let me know your secret. You will be handsomely rewarded] Energy goes down, immunologic markers (immunity) go down, Cortisol goes up, testosterone goes down, insulin goes up, adrenaline goes up..........and on and on and on...........you may not even feel as good as "stale"......nowhere to be found in the medical literature, though, an effect on HCG production in a male.:shades:

So, you're a doctor. Do you believe him? I genuinely want to know your opinion :)

GP
08-09-2010, 07:50 PM
I see where you're coming from, but I'd think the purpose of McNair's visit would've been kept under cover if he was going there on a preemptive strike.

Not so sure about that. The meeting would leak somehow, no matter how secretive it was kept. Then what would it look like to the public?

You don't jet into the Commish's office in a disguise and jet back home, looking over your shoulder the whole time. You make a big announcement and get out in front of the situation (unlike the first time, when it was just plopped onto the news media like a silent-but-deadly fart).

This is preemptive Public Relations, IMO, and the only thing I wonder is if he's already failed a test or if McNair is trotting this out there just in case something screwy happens on down the line.

Good owner, for taking his player's cause to the top, but the new theory is still not good enough for this fan's tastes. They need to go back to the drawing board at the P.R. offices and re-think their excuses, IMO.

Kimmy
08-09-2010, 07:53 PM
This is preemptive Public Relations, IMO, and the only thing I wonder is if he's already failed a test or if McNair is trotting this out there just in case something screwy happens on down the line.


I'm kind of wondering if he was worried about Mario's health and thinks that they can't/won't get Schobel. Either way, he's looking out for the team, and I appreciate that; I just don't believe Brian.

devo-x
08-09-2010, 07:56 PM
We don't have enough information to determine whether Brian's telling the truth or not

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2010, 07:57 PM
So, you're a doctor. Do you believe him? I genuinely want to know your opinion :)


Lest I be stoned, I'll present facts and let my wise MB brethren make their own conclusions.

Dallas Texan
08-09-2010, 07:58 PM
from HT.com

Houston Texans chairman and CEO Bob McNair on his meeting at the NFL offices:

"I had a meeting with the league's medical staff and presented additional medical information about Brian Cushing. The doctors will review the information and we'll hear from them at a later date."

Wolf
08-09-2010, 07:59 PM
but wasn't McNair "left out of the loop" when Brian tested positive "for an issue" the first time.

I think McNair said something about the next collective bargaining agreement he wanted the owners to know what is going on.

would the NFL go ahead and tell the owners or would that be an issue with the players association?

I am just brainstorming here

Wolf
08-09-2010, 08:02 PM
but wasn't McNair "left out of the loop" when Brian tested positive "for an issue" the first time.

I think McNair said something about the next collective bargaining agreement he wanted the owners to know what is going on.

would the NFL go ahead and tell the owners or would that be an issue with the players association?

I am just brainstorming here

here it is ..well it is profootballtalk so take it for it is worth
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/10/texans-owner-left-out-of-the-loop-on-cushing-suspension/

Texan_Bill
08-09-2010, 08:04 PM
Lest I be stoned, I'll present facts and let my wise MB brethren make their own conclusions.

*leaves thread*

MojoMan
08-09-2010, 08:08 PM
No offense, but I don't think anyone was being rude. Pollardized was just wondering if you had given him negative rep, and then everyone said no, since you just didn't have the rep power for the dot to light up green yet. :)

You guys were giving her the business because she is a rookie here on the board.

Well, Cushing had to suffer that mokawk last year as a rookie. And then there is the coiffure currently being sported by Tim Tebow in Denver:

http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2010-08/55439922.jpg

He looks like a Benedictine monk from the Dark Ages.

Anyway, he appears to be managing his rookie hazing in relatively good humor, and I am confident that HouTxFan will also weather the harassment she has had to endure here with a similarly enthusiastic sense of resolve.

Number19
08-09-2010, 08:14 PM
Just to review ( I finally found what I was trying to remember ) Cushing did have elevated levels of hCG more than once, over an extended period of several months :

...the facts most people are assuming about the test are wrong. He had measurable amounts of hCG in September but that wasn't a positive test because the B sample wasn't in high enough quantities. He had the true positive test (both A and B samples) in November...

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/05/brian_cushing_confirmation_bia.html

Pollardized
08-09-2010, 08:19 PM
Okey dokey...sorry 'bout that...and didn't mean to cause such a stir! I've lurked here for quite a while, and just recently registered because I've enjoyed all the training camp discussions amongst you folks.

I didn't know how the rep thing worked, so be forewarned, I gave some others the "purple dot treatment" today too. No offense intended, I assure you. Btw, I'm not a guy; I'm a girl, and a kinda old girl at that. Plus...I wear glasses, I'm not very big, I have rheumatoid arthritis, and I love the Houston Texans, just as I did the Oilers before them. So please, guys, try to keep the beating about my head and shoulders to a bare minimum, k? :hides:

All I was trying to say to you Pollardized, was :goodpost:. I love Bernard Pollard, and I thought your comment was pretty damn funny.

:friends: Ok HouTxFan!!!! I didn't mean for there to be drama either. I noticed someone new in another post talking smack, thougth maybe it was something like that and they were adding neg rep for people!!! Welcome to the board. If anyone gives you any trouble, warn them: they will be POLLARDIZED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2010, 08:21 PM
Let me redirect you to the binding language of the CBA agreed to by the NFLPA.

This policy specifically means that:
-- PLAYERS may not, under any circumstances, have Prohibited Substances in their systems or supply or facilitate the distribution of Prohibited Substances to other
players.

In accepting this policy, the NFLPA concomitantly accepted the criteria of player selection for testing, the testing procedures, and the appeals process:

Upon appeal of a positive test result, the League shall have the initial burden to establish a prima facie violation of the Policy, and the specimen collectors, Independent Administrator, Consulting Toxicologist and testing laboratories will be presumed to have collected and analyzed the player’s specimen in accordance with the Policy. The player may, however,
rebut that presumption by establishing that a departure from the Policy’s stated protocols occurred during the processing of his specimen. In such case, the League shall have the burden of establishing that the departure did not materially affect the validity of the positive test or other violation.

and the disciplinary consequences:

The League will designate a time and place for a hearing, at which either the Commissioner or his designee will preside as Hearing Officer. The player may be accompanied by counsel and may present relevant evidence or testimony in support of his appeal. Additionally, the NFL Players Association may attend and participate notwithstanding the player's use of other representation.

After the record has been closed, the Hearing Officer will issue a written decision, which will constitute a full, final, and complete disposition of the appeal and which will be binding on all parties.

Number19
08-09-2010, 08:28 PM
Under the Disabilities Act, there is definitely grounds for legal action in the federal courts if the "prohibited substance" is the result of a medical condition.

Pollardized
08-09-2010, 08:31 PM
"I personally believe that Brian Cushings are unable to pass tests because, uh some players out there in our NFL don't have hCG and I believe that our players like such as BERNARD POLLARD, and uh, the Cush everywhere like such as, I believe they should get out there and knock the piss out of somebody!" - Miss Teen South Carolina

http://www.pajamadeen.com/images/miss-south-carolina-caitlin-upton.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2010, 08:38 PM
Under the Disabilities Act, there is definitely grounds for legal action in the federal courts if the "prohibited substance" is the result of a medical condition.

I would have to defer the answer to this question to an attorney. But, with my limited experience in this arena of medical legal, I thought that the Disabilities Act could be bypassed BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT, ala the CBA?

-- PLAYERS may not, under any circumstances, have Prohibited Substances in their systems or supply or facilitate the distribution of Prohibited Substances to other
players.

Dutchrudder
08-09-2010, 08:40 PM
I think he got elevated HCG levels from eating too many Oreo's and milk. Who knows what the hell that white stuff is made out of???

Texan_Bill
08-09-2010, 08:48 PM
"I personally believe that Brian Cushings are unable to pass tests because, uh some players out there in our NFL don't have hCG and I believe that our players like such as BERNARD POLLARD, and uh, the Cush everywhere like such as, I believe they should get out there and knock the piss out of somebody!" - Miss Teen South Carolina

http://www.pajamadeen.com/images/miss-south-carolina-caitlin-upton.jpg

I support this message!

Malloy
08-09-2010, 09:15 PM
"I personally believe that Brian Cushings are unable to pass tests because, uh some players out there in our NFL don't have hCG and I believe that our players like such as BERNARD POLLARD, and uh, the Cush everywhere like such as, I believe they should get out there and knock the piss out of somebody!" - Miss Teen South Carolina

http://www.pajamadeen.com/images/miss-south-carolina-caitlin-upton.jpg

Arg, good old Miss Caroliina! :)

Number19
08-09-2010, 09:22 PM
I would have to defer the answer to this question to an attorney. But, with my limited experience in this arena of medical legal, I thought that the Disabilities Act could be bypassed BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT, ala the CBA?I agree on deferring. I wonder if a prior mutual agreement can prevent an otherwise qualified newcomer, from employment, due to a medical condition. Would this hold up in court. An interesting question. If this holds any water, there will be a rule change,imo, simply because of the possibility of a future lawsuit

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 09:26 PM
Knowing that the amount to trigger the fail is unlikely unless:
A) You have a fairly easy to spot tumor....or
B) You took this as a masking agent at the end of a Steroid "cycle"


This is totally wrong, though.

A) The tumor may not be easy to spot.

B) hCG is NOT a masking agent. It doesn't hide that you took steroids. Old time bodybuilders used hCG to kick start their natural testosterone production after a cycle. Let me say this again... hCG is NOT a masking agent.

eriadoc
08-09-2010, 09:34 PM
PLAYERS may not, under any circumstances, have Prohibited Substances in their systems or supply or facilitate the distribution of Prohibited Substances to other players.

That doesn't say they can't take prohibited substances; it says they can't have them in their systems. So all of you who think Cush didn't take anything can go on believing that and it sounds like it'll remain irrelevant.

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 09:38 PM
That doesn't say they can't take prohibited substances; it says they can't have them in their systems. So all of you who think Cush didn't take anything can go on believing that and it sounds like it'll remain irrelevant.

This is the same as the AAU. You're responsible for what's in your system and it doesn't matter how it got there. If something is against the "rules", then you're screwed.

However... in some cases, if you can PROVE that certain levels are "natural" for you, you can get a waiver.

In this case, from the way they're talking, it almost seems like they're trying to get Goodell to change the basic rule so that it takes personal baselines into account.

I'm thinking that some of the medical evidence they have is from Cush's blood itself. They probably had him under close medical supervision with lots of blood samples taken to show his hCG going up and down in correlation to his workout routines or something like that. *** I have no proof of this, it's just supposition. ***

Number19
08-09-2010, 09:42 PM
I would have to defer the answer to this question to an attorney. But, with my limited experience in this arena of medical legal, I thought that the Disabilities Act could be bypassed BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT, ala the CBA?The more I think about it, this is a valid legal point and seems to guarantee this this will end up in a court room if the suspension is not suspended.

Cushing is now aware of a medical condition which is in conflict with league rules and which can prevent him from employment as a professional football player if it reoccurs in the future. If this is not legally settled at this point in time, your point of mutual agreement may very well come into play in the future.

Is there a lawyer in the house.

HouTxFan
08-09-2010, 09:50 PM
You guys were giving her the business because she is a rookie here on the board.

Well, Cushing had to suffer that mokawk last year as a rookie. And then there is the coiffure currently being sported by Tim Tebow in Denver:

http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2010-08/55439922.jpg

He looks like a Benedictine monk from the Dark Ages.

Anyway, he appears to be managing his rookie hazing in relatively good humor, and I am confident that HouTxFan will also weather the harassment she has had to endure here with a similarly enthusiastic sense of resolve.

Woulda been a lot easier if they had just given me a http://image.become.com/imageserver/s4/761715764-75-75-5-32/kidwise-pink-pegasus-trike.jpg, but I can handle it...(I think?!)

drs23
08-09-2010, 09:50 PM
This is totally wrong, though.

A) The tumor may not be easy to spot.

B) hCG is NOT a masking agent. It doesn't hide that you took steroids. Old time bodybuilders used hCG to kick start their natural testosterone production after a cycle. Let me say this again... hCG is NOT a masking agent.

THANK YOU TPN. This has been discussed, defined, medical(ed) (is that a word?), documented, dissected and ________ ad nauseum. Keep up. :heart:

As to bringing it up again? Stay tuned.

Number19
08-09-2010, 09:55 PM
This is the same as the AAU. You're responsible for what's in your system and it doesn't matter how it got there. If something is against the "rules", then you're screwed.

However... in some cases, if you can PROVE that certain levels are "natural" for you, you can get a waiver.

In this case, from the way they're talking, it almost seems like they're trying to get Goodell to change the basic rule so that it takes personal baselines into account.

I'm thinking that some of the medical evidence they have is from Cush's blood itself. They probably had him under close medical supervision with lots of blood samples taken to show his hCG going up and down in correlation to his workout routines or something like that. *** I have no proof of this, it's just supposition. ***Excellent reasoning. +1

MojoMan
08-09-2010, 09:59 PM
Woulda been a lot easier if they had just given me a http://image.become.com/imageserver/s4/761715764-75-75-5-32/kidwise-pink-pegasus-trike.jpg, but I can handle it...(I think?!)

You can.

Believe me, it can get worse than that. If you are going to allow that sort of guff to intimidate you, then I would strongly advise you steer clear of the "No Spin Zone" forum of this board, where politics and current events are discussed. You have been sailing on some pretty calm waters compared to what you can expect to routinely encounter in the NSZ. Just saying.

GNTLEWOLF
08-09-2010, 10:09 PM
The more I think about it, this is a valid legal point and seems to guarantee this this will end up in a court room if the suspension is not suspended.

Cushing is now aware of a medical condition which is in conflict with league rules and which can prevent him from employment as a professional football player if it reoccurs in the future. If this is not legally settled at this point in time, your point of mutual agreement may very well come into play in the future.

Is there a lawyer in the house.

But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

HouTxFan
08-09-2010, 10:11 PM
You can.

Believe me, it can get worse than that. If you are going to allow that sort of guff to intimidate you, then I would strongly advise you steer clear of the "No Spin Zone" forum of this board, where politics and current events are discussed. You have been sailing on some pretty calm waters compared to what you can expect to routinely encounter in the NSZ. Just saying.

I avoid :gun: political discussions whenever possible, so thanks for the heads up!

GNTLEWOLF
08-09-2010, 10:13 PM
Also, I can appreciate fan loyalty, but I hope we all remember the mental gymnastics we have all gone through to excuse Cushing when some other player from another team has a similar problem in the future.

JB
08-09-2010, 10:19 PM
But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

We don't know right now. It is all speculation because we do not know what new info was submitted to the NFL medical team. And maybe it is that Cushing does not stop working for long enough for the fatigue and other symptoms to set in. Plus he has his HC. And he may be a liar. But I want to believe him, and I will.

Number19
08-09-2010, 10:21 PM
But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.No one knows, but some of us like to exercise our brain with possibilities. The Pencil Neck has the best reasoning. See post #168.

If something like this is close to what is occurring in Cushing's body and the league does not recognize it, Cushing HAS to make a court case of it to protect his future in the sport.

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2010, 10:24 PM
This is the same as the AAU. You're responsible for what's in your system and it doesn't matter how it got there. If something is against the "rules", then you're screwed.

However... in some cases, if you can PROVE that certain levels are "natural" for you, you can get a waiver.

In this case, from the way they're talking, it almost seems like they're trying to get Goodell to change the basic rule so that it takes personal baselines into account.

I'm thinking that some of the medical evidence they have is from Cush's blood itself. They probably had him under close medical supervision with lots of blood samples taken to show his hCG going up and down in correlation to his workout routines or something like that. *** I have no proof of this, it's just supposition. ***

If done properly, it's not that easy. The problem I would see with that approach is that this would have to be conducted under controlled study conditions using large number of normal controls over a long period of time. The results would have to be blinded (none of the researchers knowing his sample from all the other large number of samples) and reproducible..........and with solid proof of not taking HCG to alter the results throughout the period of the study. That would be a tall almost insurmountable burden. But actual incontrovertible "evidence" would be necessary to prove his case, not mere extropolation............and still reproducibility of study results by another group (and lab) would be needed to "verify and validate" the conclusion.

JB
08-09-2010, 10:28 PM
If done properly, it's not that easy. The problem I would see with that approach is that this would have to be conducted under controlled study conditions using large number of normal controls over a long period of time. The results would have to be blinded (none of the researchers knowing his sample from all the other large number of samples) and reproducible..........and with solid proof of not taking HCG to alter the results throughout the period of the study. That would be a tall almost insurmountable burden. But actual incontrovertible "evidence" would be necessary to prove his case, not mere extropolation............and still reproducibility of study results by another group (and lab) would be needed to "verify and validate" the conclusion.

I'm probably too drunk to understand what you are saying, but could he not just use his own body to prove a pattern? At least enough to get the NFL's medical team to reevaluate?

MEGA SWATT
08-09-2010, 10:32 PM
cut it to 2 games!

JB
08-09-2010, 10:40 PM
cut it to 2 games!

No, temporarily suspend sentence.... kinda like the Williams bros.

Big Lou
08-09-2010, 10:44 PM
Goodell: Well thanks for coming Bob, we'll take your comments under advisement, and hey thanks for coming up here to New York.

McNair: No, thank you Roger, I appreciatte you giving me a couple of minuts of your time.... Oh whats that award right there for, (McNair points to a frame on the wall, and quickly throws something on the ground....)

Goodell: Oh that was from the United Way for bieng, well it's just recognition, very nice of them...

McNair: (Motions to the ground where he just threw something) Roger you just dropped something!

Goodell: (Leans down to grab it, but Goodell beats him to it, hands it to Roger.) Oh thanks Bob.

McNair: Hey Roger you dropped this........ this check....... for 5 million dollars.... Roger you shouldn't be carrying this around you need to deposiot this.

Goodell: Oh must have fell out of my jacket.

McNair: Must have!




Wednesday 8/19/10: NFL announces new drug testing procedures. and Brian Cushings was retested, results show Over Trained Athlete Disorder.


:clap:

Big Lou
08-09-2010, 10:47 PM
I am worried this is a preemptive strike from McNair because POSSIBLY Cushing has already failed another test which hasn't been released yet.

Look at how long we didn't know about the failed test from the previous season.

Hopefully this is not the case. I'm just spit-ballin' here.

Big fan of Cushing, but am worried due to McNair going to these extremes in light of the odds that are stacked against Cushing. Either this is an owner trying to go to bat for his player, or it's an attempt to head off future problems or pending problems that haven't surfaced yet.





Not saying it's impossible, but I don't see McNair putting his rep on the line for someone that tests positive twice. He really seems to value character guys.

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2010, 10:52 PM
I'm probably too drunk to understand what you are saying, but could he not just use his own body to prove a pattern? At least enough to get the NFL's medical team to reevaluate?

Would you bet your life empirically on the "evidence" submitted? There has to be a method of verifying and validating the results. And by the time the results are reproduced, if they even can be, the 5 game suspension would have been served.

Technically, even if the "new evidence" is validated, the opportunity for submission by the very Policy of the CBA, was offered and not produced/available (for whatever reason) prior to the final appeals decision.......that "decision being binding to all parties."

drs23
08-09-2010, 10:56 PM
Would you bet your life empirically on the "evidence" submitted? There has to be a method of verifying and validating the results. And by the time the results are reproduced, if they even can be, the 5 game suspension would have been served.

Technically, even if the "new evidence" is validated, the opportunity for submission by the very Policy of the CBA, was offered and not produced/available (for whatever reason) prior to the final appeals decision.......that "decision being binding to all parties."

Doc,

Come on now, it's 4, huh?:pissed:

Vinnie
08-09-2010, 10:58 PM
I guess time will tell. He's going to be tested like crazy now for not just hcg, but elevated testosterone, other supplements etc. If he has negative tests for a while and then all of a sudden tests positive again for hcg, they really need to revisit the "occuring naturally" phenomenon before suspending him for two seasons. Between me, the message board, and the fence post though, I don't see that scenario unfolding. :fingergun:

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 11:03 PM
But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

Apparently, he's seen a whole bunch of doctors and he's got a lot of medical testimony to back it up. I think that's what got McNair on board.

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 11:12 PM
I'm probably too drunk to understand what you are saying, but could he not just use his own body to prove a pattern? At least enough to get the NFL's medical team to reevaluate?

Basically, just taking one person and showing what their body does over time doesn't really provide any control of a host of other variables. To be able to present this in an airtight fashion, you'd basically have to cut the subject off from the rest of the world to make sure they didn't take anything on the side.

Then to have this truly scientific, you'd have to put Cushing through a whole series of rigorous tests after having him do certain things AND taking certain things BUT you'd have to do it double blind where Cush didn't know what he was taking and the guy giving him things didn't know what he was taking. To do this right, you'd have to have a large group of people and you'd have to separate them into at least 2 groups: a control group that nothing was done to and a test group that was taking whatever stuff you were giving. And then you'd have to analyze your results.

BUT.

I don't think you'd necessarily have to do a full on scientific study for this. If you can find a few doctors who will say "It could be this" and a few doctors who will say "I have seen this happen" and a few doctors who will say "This could be happening to Cushing", you could present a case based on that. I think if one of these doctors took a few blood samples and was able to show some sort of pattern that he's seen in another patient (or patients), that would be sufficient. I think. But then, I'm not a lawyer or a doctor. So I could be wrong.

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2010, 11:14 PM
Doc,

Come on now, it's 4, huh?:pissed:

My bad....hit the wrong key.:choke:

JB
08-09-2010, 11:16 PM
Apparently, he's seen a whole bunch of doctors and he's got a lot of medical testimony to back it up. I think that's what got McNair on board.

That's what I'm thinking. they have found something to make it possible that he is an unique individual in this regard. I can't discount the possibility, no matter how small the likelihood. I guess I'm too much a homer.

I WANT TO BELIEVE!

:fans:

Vinnie
08-09-2010, 11:17 PM
But what evidence exists that he has this condition? I mean the symptoms of this supposed syndrome don't sound like they fit Cush to me. But I'm no doctor.

Dude, he had a hyperbaric chamber! That took away the side affects. Kind of like a beer for breakfast after you wake up with a pounding hangover.:bender:

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 11:20 PM
For me, there have always been two huge issues about this case that just don't make sense as presented.

1. hCG is no longer a popular drug. Most steroid users today who wanted to get their natural testosterone going would use Clomid or something else (and newer) than hCG. IF Cush is a PED user, I find it almost impossible to get my head around the idea of him using something so old-fashioned. I'd expect him to use something a lot more elegant and a lot more cutting edge.

2. It's hard to imagine someone having an hCG level high enough to trip the positive test level unless they took it. I hate to put words into CND's mouth, but when we were talking about this a few months ago, this is what I felt was his biggest issue.

So, to me, these two items contradict each other.

The only way it made sense to me was if Cush was taking some new cutting edge compound PED (not hCG) and it elevated his hCG levels unexpectedly. If this is the case, then the PED he was taking probably isn't illegal or banned BUT the fact that he had elevated hCG means that he should take his suspension and stop taking the compound that led to hte elevated levels.

BUT... if #2 is not true and there is a way to get hCG levels that high naturally without ingesting something, then all bets are off and I want that suspension lifted. :)

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 11:21 PM
My bad....hit the wrong key.:choke:

You are SO fired.

ReliantTexan
08-09-2010, 11:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong,but the "evidence" or (overtrained athlete's syndrome) sounds like hearsay. Or simply a possible reason for someone testing positive for hcg rather than a medical condition.

The Pencil Neck
08-09-2010, 11:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong,but the "evidence" or (overtrained athlete's syndrome) sounds like hearsay. Or simply a possible reason for someone testing positive for hcg rather than a medical condition.

From what they're saying, the "evidence" is expert testimony. He's been to a bunch of doctors in the past year.

michaelm
08-09-2010, 11:43 PM
Did anyone hear the interview with Dr. David Black around 4pm today on 610? It's interesting and worth a listen if you have a few minutes. Doctor Black describes the method which is used by the NFL for hCG testing, and how he believes that it wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny.

http://kilt.cbslocal.com/2010/08/09/dr-david-black/#more-12248


Here is an excerpt from the Yahoo.com article that (I believe) prompted 610 to have Dr. Black on the show.


And from what Dr. Black told me, contesting the test should be more about the process than the result. "The way in which HCG testing is conducted in sports is that they use a combination of two screening tests," Dr. Black said. "They don't use what we would practically consider to be a confirmatory test in forensic testing. They give one test and if they have an elevated answer [result], they run a second screening test. The belief is that the two screening tests will show the elevated HCG, but that's not standard practice in forensic drug testing. Forensic drug testing would require a confirmatory test that is based on a second and different technology than the screening test. So, the question, I think, would still be undecided as to whether or not the test results indicate use of HCG, or whether or not this is a true violation of the program."Dr. Black told me that the screening-test technology is based on an antibody-based test -- "these antibodies are developed that can recognize the possible presence of a drug or chemical. These kinds of screening tests are used for all sorts of drug testing. But the standard practice in forensic drug testing is that if you have a positive, you then want to use a confirmatory technology, and the confirmatory technology that is accepted in the court systems is called Mass Spectrometry. This is a much more elegant, sophisticated, and definite way of identifying if something is truly present. Screening tests are generally good to show when something is not present. If you really want to show that something is present, you use confirmatory test technology."
So, the NFL does not use Mass Spectrometry? "Not in this test. The NFL uses Mass Spectrometry in virtually all other tests. For this test, they just use the combination of the two different screening tests, which should not be standard practice for identifying if someone has used HCG.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner

ReliantTexan
08-10-2010, 12:20 AM
Goodell comments

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp10/news/story?id=5449113 not sure if posted

"I did meet with Bob at his request," Goodell said Monday during a previously scheduled conference call with Texans season ticket holders. "I'm trying to get all the facts correct, so we make sure we are making the right decision."

As you know in the medical profession, there are rarely absolutes and there are varying opinions," he said. "We want to make sure we listen to all the experts and understand all the facts."

cuppacoffee
08-10-2010, 12:35 AM
Thanks Mr. Mojo. I appreciate the welcome...kinda thought I might should just pack up my walker and go back to lurking, but...
:texan: so I didn't really want to do that.



This is the best place to get your Texan fix and your Texan news.

Lots of knowledgeable fans here.

Welcome aboard. Just say what's on your mind and leave your feelings in a safe place.

:coffee:

eriadoc
08-10-2010, 12:42 AM
I WANT TO BELIEVE!

:fans:

For me, there have always been two huge issues about this case that just don't make sense as presented.

1. hCG is no longer a popular drug. Most steroid users today who wanted to get their natural testosterone going would use Clomid or something else (and newer) than hCG. IF Cush is a PED user, I find it almost impossible to get my head around the idea of him using something so old-fashioned. I'd expect him to use something a lot more elegant and a lot more cutting edge.

2. It's hard to imagine someone having an hCG level high enough to trip the positive test level unless they took it. I hate to put words into CND's mouth, but when we were talking about this a few months ago, this is what I felt was his biggest issue.

I guess I'll respond to both of these posts with the same phrase:

Occam's Razor.

mattieuk
08-10-2010, 12:57 AM
Goodell comments

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp10/news/story?id=5449113 not sure if posted

Wow....he doesn't sound very definitive regarding the judgment. Especially considering Cushing already protested it once!

texansdrummer
08-10-2010, 01:19 AM
Did anyone hear the interview with Dr. David Black around 4pm today on 610? It's interesting and worth a listen if you have a few minutes. Doctor Black describes the method which is used by the NFL for hCG testing, and how he believes that it wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny.

http://kilt.cbslocal.com/2010/08/09/dr-david-black/#more-12248


Here is an excerpt from the Yahoo.com article that (I believe) prompted 610 to have Dr. Black on the show.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner

This...100%

I used to work at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in LA (I worked with the VP of Psychiatry...specifically, a renown expert in addiction), and I personally ran a drug testing machine on occasion. This particular machine was more "precise" than most standard machines.....it could even detect if someone had a drink within the past week. HOWEVER.....some of the parameters that would be derived from the testing had to be given at least a second evaluation. For instance, there was a female who, based upon the "typical" thresholds, would have tested "positive" for a controlled substance. In reality, it turned out that she was pregnant...and was not yet aware of this.

Most people do not have a proper understanding of how such testing works. Often, certain levels of many various parameters are compiled in order to reasonably assume that a particular substance may be present. It is not necessarily a clear-cut "pass-fail" situation.....although it is usually reasonable to determine. In Cushing's case, the level of such "indicators" was set by the NFL, not the NIH, or even the medical community. Even the previously accepted levels of this substance by the NFL were within the range of where Cushing tested.

For me, there are simply too many questions as too how this was determined/evaluated. I have seen, first-hand, circumstances where such things could have been improperly evaluated. If Cushing was taking hCG to recover from Steroid use, he should have tested positive for it a long, long time ago (not to mention testing positive for Steroids to BEGIN with...at some point). Let's assume that he WAS intentionally taking this.....it would have been such a small amount that there would have been no discernible benefit from it, especially since the test surrounding it were within the "allowed" range. Given the "negative" nature of tests surrounding the "positive" one, it seems quite likely to me that this is an anomaly, and that the "standards" for such testing should be properly vetted by experienced physicians.

Keep in mind, that this particular substance is something that is naturally present in all of us. I think that in this particular debate, this fact is far too often overlooked. If it was a "foreign" substance, that'd admittedly be a different story altogether........but it's simply NOT the case.

Too many people wrongly assume that there is a actual specific "test" for things, and many do not realize that hCG occurs naturally in all humans. This is partly the fault of the press, who insist on characterizing hCG as a PED/banned substance. If it was truly a "banned" substance, we would have no NFL at all. In reality...it is a naturally occurring substance that MAY indicate a number of varying circumstances, or may not even do that....given the particular determined "acceptable" range, which....given the NFL's variance of determination, is arbitrary at best.

Brisco_County
08-10-2010, 01:29 AM
Would you bet your life empirically on the "evidence" submitted? There has to be a method of verifying and validating the results. And by the time the results are reproduced, if they even can be, the 5 game suspension would have been served.

Technically, even if the "new evidence" is validated, the opportunity for submission by the very Policy of the CBA, was offered and not produced/available (for whatever reason) prior to the final appeals decision.......that "decision being binding to all parties."

They would defer the suspension until they reach a conclusion. I'm guessing Goodell has executive power on these things.

I'm also guessing that McNair's intention is not to go in there and try to exculpate Cushing by saying, "This is why he failed the test," but to completely nullify the validity of the test by saying, "Here are some natural factors not accounted for in this test." This would be supported with testimonials by Cushing's doctors. The article linked earlier in this thread that quotes Dr. Black lends to this approach.

edit: Actually, what I just said is plainly stated in the article: "contesting the test should be more about the process than the result."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner)

Brisco_County
08-10-2010, 02:04 AM
Most people do not have a proper understanding of how such testing works. Often, certain levels of many various parameters are compiled in order to reasonably assume that a particular substance may be present. It is not necessarily a clear-cut "pass-fail" situation.....although it is usually reasonable to determine. In Cushing's case, the level of such "indicators" was set by the NFL, not the NIH, or even the medical community. Even the previously accepted levels of this substance by the NFL were within the range of where Cushing tested.

Articles explaining the standards of this test basically said that males don't generate anywhere near the levels of hCG flagged by the NFL, who I'm sure use knowledgeable in-house doctors. Not to say the test isn't flawed, but I don't think the NFL's arbitrary standards are the problem.

For me, there are simply too many questions as too how this was determined/evaluated. I have seen, first-hand, circumstances where such things could have been improperly evaluated. If Cushing was taking hCG to recover from Steroid use, he should have tested positive for it a long, long time ago (not to mention testing positive for Steroids to BEGIN with...at some point). Let's assume that he WAS intentionally taking this.....it would have been such a small amount that there would have been no discernible benefit from it, especially since the test surrounding it were within the "allowed" range. Given the "negative" nature of tests surrounding the "positive" one, it seems quite likely to me that this is an anomaly, and that the "standards" for such testing should be properly vetted by experienced physicians.

Why would he have tested positive a long time ago? Was he tested by the NFL before the positive test in question?

texansdrummer
08-10-2010, 02:16 AM
Articles explaining the standards of this test basically said that males don't generate anywhere near the levels of hCG flagged by the NFL, who I'm sure use knowledgeable in-house doctors. Not to say the test isn't flawed, but I don't think the NFL's arbitrary standards are the problem.



Why would he have tested positive a long time ago? Was he tested by the NFL before the positive test in question?

There is not a singular test for levels of hCG. Yes...he was apparently tested BEFORE and AFTER this particular test..... both were within the "acceptable" range. The fact that it was only SLIGHTLY over the NFL "standard", combined with no other instances (although some may have been close), lead me (as someone with at least some limited experience in substance testing) to believe him. Even IF he was taking hCG...this level - and given that it was only SLIGHTLY elevated over the given standard....it would have afforded him absolutely NO advantage whatsoever. At LEAST....if you were allegedly going to enhance a naturally occurring substance....he would have needed to take WAY more than the level that he tested for. He's smart enough that he would have known about this, 100%, and I highly doubt that he'd continue to make an issue of it if he thought it wasn't possible that it could possibly happen again. There's nothing to be gained by his fight if he were guilty....almost everyone already assumes he's guilty. The easy way out would be to sweep it under the rug and move on.

In order to obtain ANY reasonable "benefit" from actually enhancing his level of hCG would have required using steroids. He has NEVER tested positive for steroids. He only ONCE tested outside of the offending "indicators" for hCG (according to current NFL standards)...and it was only slightly awry. Had the same test results been given in years past, we would not be having this debate.

Apologies for my medical/substance testing experience and knowledge.....what the %^&* could THAT be worth, anyways?

Ole Miss Texan
08-10-2010, 08:12 AM
Why would he have tested positive a long time ago? Was he tested by the NFL before the positive test in question?
He definitely was tested by the NFL at the Combine and supposedly that test came back clean on all accounts.

HoustonFrog
08-10-2010, 08:28 AM
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think that somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body. I haven't heard anyone really believing him, though, John McClain probably does. He probably believes inactivity leads to a special hormone that caused him to resemble Grimace.

Texan_Bill
08-10-2010, 08:32 AM
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think they somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body.

Explain the negative tests (all during last season) after positive test, Counselor.

HoustonFrog
08-10-2010, 08:36 AM
Explain the negative tests (all during last season) after positive test, Counselor.

Rhetorical?

Wolf
08-10-2010, 08:38 AM
Clemens was accused of steriods not Hcg..

i am going with Bob's word on this, if it was just Cushing ,I would be skeptical

but i am usually wrong :thud:

Honoring Earl 34
08-10-2010, 08:39 AM
Explain the negative tests (all during last season) after positive test, Counselor.

Cushing is the only player in NFL history to have tested positive for this . I think this HCG is a new test and they adjusted the exceptable limits on the way .

Texan_Bill
08-10-2010, 08:39 AM
Rhetorical?

More or less.... :kitten:

Mr teX
08-10-2010, 08:43 AM
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think they somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body.


See, i would be more inclined to go with you on all of this but i dont know..This guy has had this cloud of steroids over him since high school b/c he's been a beast since then. But yet, at least to my knowledge, nothing than can be remotely tied to him regarding steroids or PED's has ever come out this entire time. Everything up until this drug test has mainly been psuedo-analysts looking at pictures.

It's different than the roger clemens situation b/c there were clear abnormalities with his performance on the field. I mean come on a 40+ yr. old "power pitcher" still dominating after he was thought to be done 7-8 years earlier? Plus, all sorts of things started coming out with him after Mcnamee that linked him.

It just occurs to me that maybe b/c this guy has been fighting this stigma since high school it's more likely that he would stay away from PED's.....At least that's how i would've been thinking if i were in his shoes.

HoustonFrog
08-10-2010, 08:46 AM
More or less.... :kitten:

Figured..good point. If your system is prone to this happening and working out is your life or part of your job then where are the subsequent positive tests.

See, i would be more inclined to go with you on all of this but i dont know..This guy has had this cloud of steroids over him since high school b/c he's been a beast since then. But yet, at least to my knowledge, nothing than can be remotely tied to him regarding steroids or PED's has ever come out this entire time. Everything up until this drug test has mainly been psuedo-analysts looking at pictures.

It's different than the roger clemens situation b/c there were clear abnormalities with his performance on the field. I mean come on a 40+ yr. old "power pitcher" still dominating after he was thought to be done 7-8 years earlier? Plus, all sorts of things started coming out with him after Mcnamee that linked him.

It just occurs to me that maybe b/c this guy has been fighting this stigma since high school it's more likely that he would stay away from PED's.....At least that's how i would've been thinking if i were in his shoes.

I see what you are saying(though, maybe you wouldn't stay away because it has made your career and you have effectively hid it)...I'm just of the opinion that if you throw enough money at a problem, someone will finally agree that your issue is real. I'm not sure who these docs are but there was alot of cash paid for the right result. I mean even Cushings response was strange and sounded like this..."I think that's the final diagnosis we came up with."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7146628.html

Mr teX
08-10-2010, 08:56 AM
While i do agree with you H-frog that nothing will come of this as far as Cush's suspension, I think Goodell & the NFL will look at refining the testing procedure as a result of this though b/c the NFL procedure has been exposed..Maybe that's what Mcnair's ultimate goal was..Reducing cushing's suspensionn was maybe an added bonus he was shooting for.

Ole Miss Texan
08-10-2010, 09:44 AM
If hCG is on the banned substance list simply because it can sometimes be used during/after a steroid cycle to maintain the normal size of testicles and testosterone levels... then I think if a player tests above the "acceptable" hCG levels per NFL policy, they should implement further testing on the player concentrating on the possible use of steroids.

However, if it is also on the list because it can be used for weight-loss, then I don't know...

The key here, to me, is that hCG is NOT a masking agent for steroids. It's not going to hide the fact whether a player took steroids or not.

Again, I don't think Cushing's 4 game suspension is going to get lessened any. What I do hope is that this "appeal" may (i) change the way they conduct testing and/or (ii) help if Cushing or any other player (particularly on the Texans) ever tests beyond the normal levels again. If Cushing really is completely innocent, it would suck to test positive again and he gets a 1 year suspension (or 8 games or whatever the penalty). Heck 1 game would be bad enough.

Honoring Earl 34
08-10-2010, 09:59 AM
If hCG is on the banned substance list simply because it can sometimes be used during/after a steroid cycle to maintain the normal size of testicles and testosterone levels... then I think if a player tests above the "acceptable" hCG levels per NFL policy, they should implement further testing on the player concentrating on the possible use of steroids.

However, if it is also on the list because it can be used for weight-loss, then I don't know...

The key here, to me, is that hCG is NOT a masking agent for steroids. It's not going to hide the fact whether a player took steroids or not.

Again, I don't think Cushing's 4 game suspension is going to get lessened any. What I do hope is that this "appeal" may (i) change the way they conduct testing and/or (ii) help if Cushing or any other player (particularly on the Texans) ever tests beyond the normal levels again. If Cushing really is completely innocent, it would suck to test positive again and he gets a 1 year suspension (or 8 games or whatever the penalty). Heck 1 game would be bad enough.

He's getting suspended for a caution flag and not a red flag . If anything a caution should put you on the watched list and no more .

DeMarCushPoll
08-10-2010, 10:29 AM
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think that somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body. I haven't heard anyone really believing him, though, John McClain probably does. He probably believes inactivity leads to a special hormone that caused him to resemble Grimace.


He abruptly stopped working out during training camp last year due to injury. That may explain the spike in hCg in Sept. From what I've read on this syndrome, the spike in hCg occurs after work outs have stopped. That would fit the timeline of what he's claiming. Too many people put thier blind faith in science. It's not as exact as many people believe.

I don't think it really matters what the NFL's decision is on this matter because I can see this going to court and being tied-up there for a long time. My prediction is he will not miss any games in 2010 due to this suspension.

People tend to mock what they do not understand.

Goldensilence
08-10-2010, 10:38 AM
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think that somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body. I haven't heard anyone really believing him, though, John McClain probably does. He probably believes inactivity leads to a special hormone that caused him to resemble Grimace.

Not sure I agree with the premise but, I do think it's going to be hard for Goodell to lift the suspension because of the can of worms it could open.

Explain the negative tests (all during last season) after positive test, Counselor.

This is the one thing that continues to bother me in all of this nothing at the combine, pre-season, and nothing after.

Figured..good point. If your system is prone to this happening and working out is your life or part of your job then where are the subsequent positive tests.



I see what you are saying(though, maybe you wouldn't stay away because it has made your career and you have effectively hid it)...I'm just of the opinion that if you throw enough money at a problem, someone will finally agree that your issue is real. I'm not sure who these docs are but there was alot of cash paid for the right result. I mean even Cushings response was strange and sounded like this..."I think that's the final diagnosis we came up with."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7146628.html

This is another problem. For all the rumors surrounding Cushing, until now he hasn't failed a test. Even then it wasn't for a banned substance but a slightly elevated level of a naturally occurring hormone.

If hCG is on the banned substance list simply because it can sometimes be used during/after a steroid cycle to maintain the normal size of testicles and testosterone levels... then I think if a player tests above the "acceptable" hCG levels per NFL policy, they should implement further testing on the player concentrating on the possible use of steroids.

However, if it is also on the list because it can be used for weight-loss, then I don't know...

The key here, to me, is that hCG is NOT a masking agent for steroids. It's not going to hide the fact whether a player took steroids or not.

Again, I don't think Cushing's 4 game suspension is going to get lessened any. What I do hope is that this "appeal" may (i) change the way they conduct testing and/or (ii) help if Cushing or any other player (particularly on the Texans) ever tests beyond the normal levels again. If Cushing really is completely innocent, it would suck to test positive again and he gets a 1 year suspension (or 8 games or whatever the penalty). Heck 1 game would be bad enough.

hCG is not on the banned list, because it's a naturally occurring hormone.What's important to remember is he tested for a slightly elevated level. His numbers have always been high, but this time it crested just over what the NFL NOW has deemed an acceptable level. If I recall this right it was changed pretty recently.

All I'm going to say is that in the end most athletes who do get busted, do for levels much higher or foreign substances. They also pretty much accept the suspension and try and move on. This is certainly a lot of effort being put forth over a slightly elevated level of hCG. Maybe I'm a sucker, but I'm inclined to believe Brian.

Far as it being some sort of preemptive action I don't think so. I think Brian likely has gathered a fair amount of medical research supporting him and has made a compelling enough case to get the owner on board. Bob knows he's got a good shot at making the playoffs this year and having last year's DROY on the field for the first four games of the season could be a difference maker.

Señor Stan
08-10-2010, 10:41 AM
I want to believe Brian Cushing. I really, really do.

If he is telling the truth, he need to take this battle to court. If he tested positive for hCG and he honestly does not know how and is blaming "Overtrained Athlete Syndrome" he NEEDS to take this to court.

There is too much of a risk of another "false" positive if it is a condition that is occurring naturally for him. Goodell has already shown a reluctance to enforce suspensions (Vikings/Saints) when a legal precedence has been set. If he just takes the suspension, it is telling me he is either guilty or short sighted.

Hervoyel
08-10-2010, 11:13 AM
I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.

thunderkyss
08-10-2010, 11:28 AM
He's getting suspended for a caution flag and not a red flag . If anything a caution should put you on the watched list and no more .

This is by far the most sensible thing I've heard yet.

Cjeremy635
08-10-2010, 11:37 AM
I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.

Very interesting.

I kind of thought the same thing about Cushing. I really have no idea if he cheated or not, but I do know that not everyone is the same. Look at these professional athletes. Look at the size that they are and the bulk that they carry. To me, it's obvious that they are genetically different to some extent. All the hard work in the world can't make you grow to 6'7" and weigh a cut up 280 lbs. I've seen those shows on TV about those kids, or even adults, who are extremely tall. They are producing an elevated level of something that is allowing them to be that way. I get that it was one of the reasons that a tumor could have been a cause of the high levels, but it may just be natural for him and not caused by anything out of the norm. Pencil Neck made mention earlier of someone that he knows that has really high testosterone levels. People vary. Period.

Rey
08-10-2010, 11:45 AM
Very interesting.

I kind of thought the same thing about Cushing. I really have no idea if he cheated or not, but I do know that not everyone is the same. Look at these professional athletes. Look at the size that they are and the bulk that they carry. To me, it's obvious that they are genetically different to some extent. All the hard work in the world can't make you grow to 6'7" and weigh a cut up 280 lbs. I've seen those shows on TV about those kids, or even adults, who are extremely tall. They are producing an elevated level of something that is allowing them to be that way. I get that it was one of the reasons that a tumor could have been a cause of the high levels, but it may just be natural for him and not caused by anything out of the norm. Pencil Neck made mention earlier of someone that he knows that has really high testosterone levels. People vary. Period.

I believe that Cushing did not take steroids or anything to off-set steroid use.

Like you and Herv said above, everyone's body is different. If I'm not mistaken, Cushing would have passed the test with the same levels last year. Also, he voluntarily took and passed a lie detector test.

For some reason I think his body just produced the elevated levels of HGC. I may be a fool for believing him, but iiwii.

HoustonFrog
08-10-2010, 12:07 PM
I think if this was Chris Johnson then we would see the skepticism level rise dramtically.

On a side note I paid my doctor $1000 to tell my wife that one beer in my system actually elevates my BAC to triple normal levels so I really did only have a "couple of drinks" when I came home so drunk the other night. :fingergun:

I'll edit this on..saw PK had a mailbag section on this today...this is just for info

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/08/10/mail/index.html?xid=cnnbin&hpt=Sbin

In my Monday column, I told you that Houston linebacker Brian Cushing and the owner of the Texans, Bob McNair, would be asking the league to reduce or erase the four-game suspension for a positive performance-enhancing drug test based on a defense that Cushing tested positive for elevated levels of hCG because of overtrained athlete syndrome.

Today, I bring you an expert in hCG research, courtesy of the work of SI's David Epstein. He interviewed Laurence A. Cole, hCG researcher at the University of New Mexico and director of the hCG Reference Service. Cole gave an explanation about how Cushing could have tested positive by ingesting nothing -- but simply by overtraining, as Cushing has claimed. But Cole also made it clear that, in his opinion, such a claim is highly unlikely.

Cole said there are conditions that could trigger false positives in a man. The testicles could completely stop working -- as in a case of testicular cancer, or a disease called hypogonadotropism (which basically means the testicles stop working), or a hereditary disease called hCG syndrome -- resulting in more than normal hCG being produced in the body. Said Cole: "All these things are rare and remote. The honest truth is that 999 times out of a thousand, the test gives a correct result. If they're positive, they're taking hCG.''

When Epstein asked about the overtrained athlete syndrome, Cole said: "It sounds like a far stretch ... I have never seen a case like that."

ChampionTexan
08-10-2010, 12:17 PM
I think if this was Chris Johnson then we would see the skepticism level rise dramtically.

On a side note I paid my doctor $1000 to tell my wife that one beer in my system actually elevates my BAC to triple normal levels so I really did only have a "couple of drinks" when I came home so drunk the other night. :fingergun:

Yeah, but did your wife pay her lawyer $1000 to point out that when you triple something that is zero, you still end up with zero (and that you need a Dr. who's better at math)? :bender:

spurstexanstros
08-10-2010, 12:23 PM
I think Mcnair told the comissioner that Cushing will serve his suspension when the williams brothers serve their first game. Have they every served one of their games for their positive tests?

Double Barrel
08-10-2010, 12:30 PM
Also, I can appreciate fan loyalty, but I hope we all remember the mental gymnastics we have all gone through to excuse Cushing when some other player from another team has a similar problem in the future.

I admire the mental gymnastics by Texans fans to circle the wagons around one of our own. Fans are loyal that way.

However, if this was Brian Cushing the Tennessee Titan's star LB, he'd be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed on this board by these same folks. The continued story would only reinforce that verdict.

It is what it is.

I guess I'll respond to both of these posts with the same phrase:

Occam's Razor.

This logic is like a giant planet whose gravitational force keeps pulling my mind back into it's orbit. I consider everything and all perspectives, but my mind still ends up around this same planet (although, only my mind, because my heart that bleeds battle red want to believe Cush...).

I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.

Good post, Herv, and something to consider. I've got elevated levels of triglycerides - much higher than 'average' and much to the detriment of my pancreas - so I can see your logic.

However, the difference is that every triglyceride test that I've ever taken in the past decade reveals...that I've got abnormally high triglycerides. They do not fluctuate to 'normal' levels, so while I can certainly understand where you're coming from, it's tough to swallow when his body is not producing elevated levels on a regular basis.

All that being said, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because he's a Houston Texan. I'll just have to live with that splinter in my mind's eye about that Occam's Razor planet, though.

HoustonFrog
08-10-2010, 12:38 PM
Yeah, but did your wife pay her lawyer $1000 to point out that when you triple something that is zero, you still end up with zero (and that you need a Dr. who's better at math)? :bender:

Ummmm....1 beer.....triple BAC than normal. 3 x more than eqivalent of 1 beer. Got it:clown:

Hervoyel
08-10-2010, 12:38 PM
Another thing I meant to mention in my post above is that I keep wondering when the guy with the steroids is going to show up.

I keep hearing that rumors of steroid use have dogged Cushing since high school. It just takes a moment to look over pictures of him from then until today in Google Images to see why they started. So where's the clown who always comes forward after a while to say that he saw Brian Cushing using steroids or he injected him, supplied him, delivered a brown paper bag for him, whatever? Nobody can do this in a vacuum. Someone knows Brian Cushing used steroids (if he used steroids) and that person always comes forward when the athlete in question gets busted.

So far no news conference or book excerpt. No interview in the LA Times. You would think that this would at least go over well in a good USC tell-all book with some Reggie Bush scandal right?

It's circumstantial admittedly but it's another thing that combined with everything else has me thinking Cushing is telling the truth. If that guy does appear and steps forward with real evidence then Brian Cushing is going to find Bob McNair wont be amused.

beerlover
08-10-2010, 12:41 PM
I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.

Hope Goodell comes to the same conclusion. what are the odds of that happening 5 in 100?

The Pencil Neck
08-10-2010, 12:45 PM
Good post, Herv, and something to consider. I've got elevated levels of triglycerides - much higher than 'average' and much to the detriment of my pancreas - so I can see your logic.

However, the difference is that every triglyceride test that I've ever taken in the past decade reveals...that I've got abnormally high triglycerides. They do not fluctuate to 'normal' levels, so while I can certainly understand where you're coming from, it's tough to swallow when his body is not producing elevated levels on a regular basis.

That's a very good point.

We, the fans, don't know what Cushing's "normal" level of hCG is. It might be high normal, almost too high, just as a baseline and for some reason, it spiked and set off the positive. BUT... that "spike" might be a relatively small amount. That might be some of the information that they passed to the NFL's medical committee. That would explain the comments about taking certain player's baselines into account for the tests.

Cushing has an enlarged pituitary gland. This could possibly be a side effect of that combined with the overtraining syndrome.

bigbrewster2000
08-10-2010, 12:51 PM
Hope Goodell comes to the same conclusion. what are the odds of that happening 5 in 100?

I'll take a 1 and 20 chance over a definitive 4 game suspension any day

Carr Bombed
08-10-2010, 12:58 PM
I admire the mental gymnastics by Texans fans to circle the wagons around one of our own. Fans are loyal that way.

However, if this was Brian Cushing the Tennessee Titan's star LB, he'd be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed on this board by these same folks. The continued story would only reinforce that verdict.

It is what it is.



This logic is like a giant planet whose gravitational force keeps pulling my mind back into it's orbit. I consider everything and all perspectives, but my mind still ends up around this same planet (although, only my mind, because my heart that bleeds battle red want to believe Cush...).

Yep, which is why I don't post alot in threads like this. I've already accepted the fact that Cushing already has that label and will always have that label no matter what the Commish says. He's still going to be suspended for 4 games.. So I kinda wish that they wouldn't of brought it back up, but it is kinda cool to see your owner step up in a BIG WAY for one of his players. Bob McNair is getting major props from the players in that locker room (and probably from alot of players around the league, this will only help us in the future) and this is after Andre Johnson said his major goal now is to win Mr. McNair a championship.

Rey
08-10-2010, 01:01 PM
Another thing I meant to mention in my post above is that I keep wondering when the guy with the steroids is going to show up.

I keep hearing that rumors of steroid use have dogged Cushing since high school. It just takes a moment to look over pictures of him from then until today in Google Images to see why they started. So where's the clown who always comes forward after a while to say that he saw Brian Cushing using steroids or he injected him, supplied him, delivered a brown paper bag for him, whatever? Nobody can do this in a vacuum. Someone knows Brian Cushing used steroids (if he used steroids) and that person always comes forward when the athlete in question gets busted.

So far no news conference or book excerpt. No interview in the LA Times. You would think that this would at least go in a good USC tell-all book with some Reggie Bush scandal right?

It's circumstantial admittedly but it's another thing that combined with everything else has me thinking Cushing is telling the truth. That guy appears and steps forward with real evidence and Brian Cushing is going to find Bob McNair isn't going to be amused.

Thats a good point.

That and the fact that he's never had another positive test for roids or hCG despite rigourous testing in the NCAA...

Rey
08-10-2010, 01:09 PM
He passed the pre-combine test and he passed the testosterone test just before his rookie season but failed the hcg test. This is why CnD and I had a long discussion about time lines and whether he may have used 18 months or so before the failed test (like before or during his last college season) and then supplemented hcg because he thought his marbles weren't the right size or functioning normally.

Do they not test for hcg levels with the pre-combine test?

I may not be understanding right, but it sounds like you're saying he may have potentially used 'roids in the past...

Got off of them in time to pass his pre-combine test...but because he may have thought his testicles weren't normal he decided to take hcg and then failed the test?

Maybe I'm understanding wrong, but wouldn't that be super dumb on his part? To have passed all those tests, but decide to take hcg because his balls weren't big enough? Seems like he should have just left them alone...

Ole Miss Texan
08-10-2010, 01:10 PM
From HoustonFrog's link:
Said Cole: "All these things are rare and remote. The honest truth is that 999 times out of a thousand, the test gives a correct result. If they're positive, they're taking hCG.''
Well the doctor is saying that 999 out of thousand times the test gives a correct result. I think we're all in the boat, including Cushing, that we take the test as being accurate... we're just wondering/hoping/trying to find out WHY it came back like that.

Just for amusement let's say we are NOT convinced the test was accurate. So he states that 999 out of 1,000 times it's accurate which means 1 out of 1,000 times the test could produce false results.

Now going on the conservative basis of 53 players per active roster and there being 32 teams, that's 1,696 players in the NFL on an active roster at any given time. That's 1,696 players that we KNOW have been tested at least ONCE. This does not include an other players that have been cut/never made the active roster or a team/are on the practice squad... who all should have been tested as well.

So if the statistics are correct, with 1,696 players getting tested (meaning 1,696 tests being administered) that's 1.696 players that could find themselves receiving a false result. And that's only one test! These players are tested multiple times so this only increases the chances that a player could falsely test positive for this.

I'm not saying I believe the results were false... I'm just saying that based on the statistic that the "Expert" gave, it's completely viable that 1 person in the NFL could get a false result EACH TIME THEY GET TESTED. That's just due to the shear numbers of players getting tested.

Cjeremy635
08-10-2010, 01:12 PM
From HoustonFrog's link:

Well the doctor is saying that 999 out of thousand times the test gives a correct result. I think we're all in the boat, including Cushing, that we take the test as being accurate... we're just wondering/hoping/trying to find out WHY it came back like that.

Just for amusement let's say we are NOT convinced the test was accurate. So he states that 999 out of 1,000 times it's accurate which means 1 out of 1,000 times the test could produce false results.

Now going on the conservative basis of 53 players per active roster and there being 32 teams, that's 1,696 players in the NFL on an active roster at any given time. That's 1,696 players that we KNOW have been tested at least ONCE. This does not include an other players that have been cut/never made the active roster or a team/are on the practice squad... who all should have been tested as well.

So if the statistics are correct, with 1,696 players getting tested (meaning 1,696 tests being administered) that's 1.696 players that could find themselves receiving a false result. And that's only one test! These players are tested multiple times so this only increases the chances that a player could falsely test positive for this.

I'm not saying I believe the results were false... I'm just saying that based on the statistic that the "Expert" gave, it's completely viable that 1 person in the NFL could get a false result EACH TIME THEY GET TESTED. That's just due to the shear numbers of players getting tested.

Really good point.

Rey
08-10-2010, 01:15 PM
I admire the mental gymnastics by Texans fans to circle the wagons around one of our own. Fans are loyal that way.

However, if this was Brian Cushing the Tennessee Titan's star LB, he'd be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed on this board by these same folks. The continued story would only reinforce that verdict.

Sounds like bias either way.

If Texans fans--the ones who actually take time to learn about the situation--aren't qualified to make a judgement then who is?

Of course there will be different opinions, but I don't think that just because we're fans of the Texans we can't look at what we know about the situation and attempt to take our own bias out of it.

Personally, I've gone back and forth on the issue...and in the end, I will never 'know'...

Texan_Bill
08-10-2010, 01:16 PM
Ummmm....1 beer.....triple BAC than normal. 3 x more than eqivalent of 1 beer. Got it:clown:

What a cheap drunk you are... I really wish I had that problem. :cowboy1:

Hardcore Texan
08-10-2010, 01:20 PM
So any word from Goodell about the suspension? Any decisions?

HOU-TEX
08-10-2010, 01:20 PM
Here's how I feel, blunt and to my point.

At this point I don't care if he took it or not. Half the NFL's likely on some sort of PED. I just want him back on the field ASAP. If that means McNair fluffing up Goodell, so be it.

Brisco_County
08-10-2010, 01:21 PM
Thats a good point.

That and the fact that he's never had another positive test for roids or hCG despite rigourous testing in the NCAA...

Fact: Cushing was tested for steroids 23 times while at USC.

I'm going to predict right now that McNair will win this one. Look at the position Goodell is being put in: He has to defend the veracity of a relatively new test against its first guilty subject. The guilty party is bringing to the table a well-researched, professionally supported case of questions and variables that the NFL does not have empirically supported answers for.

Brisco_County
08-10-2010, 01:56 PM
Jerome Solomon's story today:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7146628.html

"None of the doctors I spoke to Monday has ever heard of a connection between the little-known overtrained athlete syndrome and hCG. They are as interested in finding out what "science to back it up," Cushing claims he has."

How many doctors until now were even aware of hCG in relation to steroid use? This is a relatively new discussion in sports, which I never heard about until Manny Ramirez.

"Overtrained athlete syndrome is a new one as far as a performance-enhancing drug-use defense. Worse for Cushing, most of the literature and medical writings about the overtrained athlete lists issues — immune system problems, iron deficiency and anemia, decrease in body mass, muscle tenderness and a decrease in performance - that don't exactly fit anywhere into his rookie-of-the-year season."

Cushing's method of training is abnormal. The symptoms listed probably wouldn't apply.

So doctors are unfamiliar with this syndrome and its relation to hCG. Ok. Most doctors were unfamiliar with Celiac sprue not too long ago, and that's being diagnosed everywhere right now. New types of tests can expand our common knowledge of the human body, so I don't put much stock in what Solomon's two rolodex medical sources have to say about it until more research takes place.

gtexan02
08-10-2010, 03:20 PM
I think this is all a coverup.

McNair was really going to Goodell to say "Let Cushing play or I'm going to team up with Jerry in Dallas to prevent the NFL from agreeing on a CBA and we're going to have a lockout year."

Marcus
08-10-2010, 03:21 PM
I don't think Goodell is going to overturn it, simply because doing so would send a message to all the other owners and players, that if they march enough witnesses and present enough "evidence", they can get any suspension overturned.

Overturning it would set a precedent that I don't think the commisioner really wants to set. As a Texans fan, I'm hoping I'm wrong, but looking at the NFL as a whole, this a can of worms.

As for my opinion of whether Cushing is really innocent, Occam's razor reigns supreme.

Dutchrudder
08-10-2010, 03:25 PM
I don't think Goodell is going to overturn it, simply because doing so would send a message to all the other owners and players, that if they march enough witnesses and present enough "evidence", they can get any suspension overturned.

Overturning it would set a precedent that I don't think the commisioner really wants to set.

As a Texans fan, I'm hoping I'm wrong, but looking at the NFL as a whole, this a can of worms.

As for my opinion of whether Cushing is really innocent, Occam's razor reigns supreme.

I've read that Cushing is the only NFL player to be suspended for elevated HCG levels, so the precedent would only effect any players suspended for HCG. I don't think it's unreasonable to forgive this suspension and then bolster the way HCG is tested to make the test as reliable as the others used to detect PEDs.

Brisco_County
08-10-2010, 03:25 PM
I don't think Goodell is going to overturn it, simply because doing so would send a message to all the other owners and players, that if they march enough witnesses and present enough "evidence", they can get any suspension overturned.

Overturning it would set a precedent that I don't think the commisioner really wants to set. As a Texans fan, I'm hoping I'm wrong, but looking at the NFL as a whole, this a can of worms.

As for my opinion of whether Cushing is really innocent, Occam's razor reigns supreme.

We're not talking about a steroid test though. This is a new type of test where its credibility is vulnerable to scrutiny of its process.

I've read that Cushing is the only NFL player to be suspended for elevated HCG levels, so the precedent would only effect any players suspended for HCG. I don't think it's unreasonable to forgive this suspension and then bolster the way HCG is tested to make the test as reliable as the others used to detect PEDs.

Exactly.

spurstexanstros
08-10-2010, 03:27 PM
Did the williamses serve their suspension?

Dutchrudder
08-10-2010, 03:29 PM
Did the williamses serve their suspension?

Nope, they still have it tied up in a Minnesota state court. I think they are hoping to keep it that way until they both retire :)