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View Full Version : Andre Johnson not even best WR in the state of Texas?


Tailgate
07-22-2010, 12:09 PM
KC Joyner goes big in this article comparing Miles Austin vs. Andre Johnson. I think the comments at the end of the article are pretty accurate in describing the piece as a whole. ITS CRAP.


Miles Austin has seized the WR crown

...The real competition for Johnson as the NFL's premier wideout comes from within the state in which he plays pro football. Many might not consider Miles Austin to be an elite wideout yet, but he actually had a better set of metrics than any of the three other aforementioned contenders this past season.

So did he do enough last season to beat the perceived champion for the belt?

To find out, let's do it like Bryant's players and run a 10-stage challenge. We'll compare both Austin's and Johnson's yards per attempt (YPA) metrics in 10 main receiving categories. At the end, whoever has the most victories will win the honor of best wide receiver in the NFL.

A full chart follows the breakdown by category. Short passes (thrown downfield 10 yards or fewer)
Austin's 9.4 YPA topped Johnson's 6.0 mark by a 50 percent margin. That is enough to give him a win, but it is also worth noting that Austin didn't just beat Johnson in this metric but also led the entire league in this category.
Challenge status: Austin 1, Johnson 0

Medium passes (11-19 yards downfield)
OK, so Austin wins on dinks and dunks, but can he beat Johnson on the deep out, deep in and comeback routes that make up the bulk of the medium-depth patterns? Not exactly, but he didn't lose to him, either. Austin and Johnson both gained 12.1 YPA on medium routes last season.
Challenge status: Austin 1, Johnson 0, 1 tie

Deep passes (20-29 yards downfield)
For most receivers, the deeper the pass, the more likely it is they would lose to Johnson, but Austin won this category as well. His 20.3 mark ranked ninth in the league and nearly doubled Johnson's 10.9 YPA.
Challenge status: Austin 2, Johnson 0, 1 tie

Bomb-length passes (30 or more yards downfield)
Go patterns are the kings of this route depth, and this is where Johnson starts to make his stand. His 26.1 YPA was seventh-best in the league overall and second-best among wideouts with 10 or more bomb attempts. It also nearly doubled Austin's 13.8 YPA mark.
Challenge status: Austin 2, Johnson 1, 1 tie

Vertical (all medium, deep and bomb passes)
Johnson's lead in the bomb-pass category helped vault him over Austin in this all-encompassing category, but not by much. Johnson posted a 14.5 YPA mark, ranking 10th in the league, while Austin checked in with a 13.7 YPA total (which ranked 15th).
Challenge status: Austin 2, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Overall YPA (all route depths)
Johnson's bomb-pass prowess helped him close enough ground to win the vertical category, but it wasn't enough to overcome Austin here. Austin's 11.2 overall YPA mark ranked fourth-best and was more than 2 yards ahead of Johnson's 9.9 YPA total.
Challenge status: Austin 3, Johnson 2, 1 tie

In the portion of this challenge based on depth of the pass route, Austin is the winner -- but distance alone is not the only indicator of how good a receiver is. Another way to measure receiving excellence is to see how well each wideout did when facing varying levels of competition.

I went through the breakdown charts I did for every game from the 2009 season and pulled out the plays on which a receiver faced a cornerback. I then assigned color-coded grades to the cornerbacks based on their 2009 YPA totals (which can be found in the KC Joyner Metricmania section in the 2010 ESPN The Magazine fantasy football preview).

Against cornerbacks who yield YPAs of 7 yards or fewer on average (red-rated CBs)
Austin was hardly fazed by elite competition, as he posted 12.0 YPA against them. Johnson's 8.0 YPA in this category ranked 18th in the league but didn't keep up with Austin's total.
Challenge status: Austin 4, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Against CBs who yield 7-9 YPA on average (yellow-rated CBs)
Austin put up 9.8 YPA here versus Johnson's 6.9. Another win for Austin.
Challenge status: Austin 5, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Against CBs who yield 9 or more YPA on average (green-rated CBs)
Johnson was very good at dominating overmatched cornerbacks, something shown by his 14.6 YPA total here. He wasn't as good as Austin and his 17.7 YPA mark, however.
Challenge status: Austin 6, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Against CBs in general
With wins in all three color-coded cornerback categories, it is obvious Austin won this part of the challenge as well (13.4 YPA versus Johnson's 9.9 mark), but just as was the case on short passes, it is worth noting that Austin ranked No. 1 in the league in this metric.

It also means he won the competition by a score of 7-2-1.


Link:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=5398251

JWarren14
07-22-2010, 12:11 PM
Via KC Joyner ESPN Insider
Link (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=5398251)
If you don't have a link:

"One of the methods that former college football coach Bear Bryant used to settle positional battles early in his coaching career was the "challenge system." This allowed any player to call for a one-on-one battle with a starter. The two would go head-to-head in a variety of areas (blocking, tackling, receiving, etc.) to see who was the best at executing the key responsibilities of the position. The winner would claim the prize as starter.

If such a system existed in the world of statistical analyses, there would be many potential challengers to Houston Texans wide receiver Andre Johnson for the title of best wide receiver in the NFL. Larry Fitzgerald, Randy Moss and Reggie Wayne all would serve as worthy foes for Johnson, but surprisingly enough, none of them would rank as the No. 1 contender.

The real competition for Johnson as the NFL's premier wideout comes from within the state in which he plays pro football. Many might not consider Miles Austin to be an elite wideout yet, but he actually had a better set of metrics than any of the three other aforementioned contenders this past season.

So did he do enough last season to beat the perceived champion for the belt?

To find out, let's do it like Bryant's players and run a 10-stage challenge. We'll compare both Austin's and Johnson's yards per attempt (YPA) metrics in 10 main receiving categories. At the end, whoever has the most victories will win the honor of best wide receiver in the NFL.

A full chart follows the breakdown by category.

Short passes (thrown downfield 10 yards or fewer)
Austin's 9.4 YPA topped Johnson's 6.0 mark by a 50 percent margin. That is enough to give him a win, but it is also worth noting that Austin didn't just beat Johnson in this metric but also led the entire league in this category.
Challenge status: Austin 1, Johnson 0

Medium passes (11-19 yards downfield)
OK, so Austin wins on dinks and dunks, but can he beat Johnson on the deep out, deep in and comeback routes that make up the bulk of the medium-depth patterns? Not exactly, but he didn't lose to him, either. Austin and Johnson both gained 12.1 YPA on medium routes last season.
Challenge status: Austin 1, Johnson 0, 1 tie

Deep passes (20-29 yards downfield)
For most receivers, the deeper the pass, the more likely it is they would lose to Johnson, but Austin won this category as well. His 20.3 mark ranked ninth in the league and nearly doubled Johnson's 10.9 YPA.
Challenge status: Austin 2, Johnson 0, 1 tie

Bomb-length passes (30 or more yards downfield)
Go patterns are the kings of this route depth, and this is where Johnson starts to make his stand. His 26.1 YPA was seventh-best in the league overall and second-best among wideouts with 10 or more bomb attempts. It also nearly doubled Austin's 13.8 YPA mark.
Challenge status: Austin 2, Johnson 1, 1 tie

Vertical (all medium, deep and bomb passes)
Johnson's lead in the bomb-pass category helped vault him over Austin in this all-encompassing category, but not by much. Johnson posted a 14.5 YPA mark, ranking 10th in the league, while Austin checked in with a 13.7 YPA total (which ranked 15th).
Challenge status: Austin 2, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Overall YPA (all route depths)
Johnson's bomb-pass prowess helped him close enough ground to win the vertical category, but it wasn't enough to overcome Austin here. Austin's 11.2 overall YPA mark ranked fourth-best and was more than 2 yards ahead of Johnson's 9.9 YPA total.
Challenge status: Austin 3, Johnson 2, 1 tie

In the portion of this challenge based on depth of the pass route, Austin is the winner -- but distance alone is not the only indicator of how good a receiver is. Another way to measure receiving excellence is to see how well each wideout did when facing varying levels of competition.

I went through the breakdown charts I did for every game from the 2009 season and pulled out the plays on which a receiver faced a cornerback. I then assigned color-coded grades to the cornerbacks based on their 2009 YPA totals (which can be found in the KC Joyner Metricmania section in the 2010 ESPN The Magazine fantasy football preview).

Against cornerbacks who yield YPAs of 7 yards or fewer on average (red-rated CBs)
Austin was hardly fazed by elite competition, as he posted 12.0 YPA against them. Johnson's 8.0 YPA in this category ranked 18th in the league but didn't keep up with Austin's total.
Challenge status: Austin 4, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Against CBs who yield 7-9 YPA on average (yellow-rated CBs)
Austin put up 9.8 YPA here versus Johnson's 6.9. Another win for Austin.
Challenge status: Austin 5, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Against CBs who yield 9 or more YPA on average (green-rated CBs)
Johnson was very good at dominating overmatched cornerbacks, something shown by his 14.6 YPA total here. He wasn't as good as Austin and his 17.7 YPA mark, however.
Challenge status: Austin 6, Johnson 2, 1 tie

Against CBs in general
With wins in all three color-coded cornerback categories, it is obvious Austin won this part of the challenge as well (13.4 YPA versus Johnson's 9.9 mark), but just as was the case on short passes, it is worth noting that Austin ranked No. 1 in the league in this metric.

It also means he won the competition by a score of 7-2-1."

I am calling BS! We'll see this year when we have a running game. The Giants had an awful defense last year.

rmartin65
07-22-2010, 12:12 PM
Guy is an *****. Just watch them play, that will tell you what you need to know.

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 12:14 PM
I can't believe people pay to read that garbage.

eriadoc
07-22-2010, 12:16 PM
When Austin puts up that sort of YPA on 115 catches, then we'll talk. Until then, KC Joyner is a tool.

disaacks3
07-22-2010, 12:18 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Miles Austin ACROSS from Andre, but INSTEAD of him...never!

OzzO
07-22-2010, 12:19 PM
How 'bout the comparison, "Reciever NFL coach / owner would rather have on their team if had to choose between them."



nuff said.

Ryan
07-22-2010, 12:24 PM
Miles Austin also doesn't have to play against the likes of Revis and Asomugha once every 4 years. The DBs are overall much better in the AFC than in the NFC, Miles Austin hardly demands double coverage like AJ does, and he has only done it in one season, while AJ has been doing it for 7. So what's this tool trying to prove?

Brisco_County
07-22-2010, 12:34 PM
Whenever teams play the Cowboys, how many defensive coordinators are losing sleep thinking about containing Miles Austin?

BIG TORO
07-22-2010, 12:36 PM
:facepalm: These two guys should not even be in the same sentence!

jaayteetx
07-22-2010, 12:40 PM
Just trying to get hits from all the cowgirl fans out there, what gm in their right mind would take Austin over AJ? Not a single damn one. Useless ass article.

redwhiteANDblue
07-22-2010, 12:40 PM
:facepalm:

IDEXAN
07-22-2010, 12:48 PM
I can't believe people pay to read that garbage.

My man, I agree with a thousand percent !
And especially some of these writers on ESPNs payroll. Talk about a bunch of armchair QB types who know nothing about football. To me it's almost insulting that they pitch me, solict me for monetary payment for their "football knowledge".

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 12:50 PM
Austin has a lot better help around him.

Better:
O-Line
WRs
RBs
TEs
(you can debate QB I guess)

Tailgate
07-22-2010, 12:53 PM
I actually used to enjoyreading Joyner's the fifth down blog in the NY times online from time to time...

HoustonFrog
07-22-2010, 12:56 PM
As a massive Cowboy fan I don't even think Austin is close to AJ right now. First AJ does it every year and not only does it but does it consistently. I think Austin has that potential but he has a couple more years to prove it and I don't think he will get the numbers with the teammates he has. Coordinators do look for him though. When I was at the Boys/Minny playoff game last year I could see the whole field from up high and they doubled Austin all day and left Roy E one on one...worked.

IDEXAN
07-22-2010, 12:56 PM
Austin has a lot better help around him as well.

Better:
O-Line
WRs
RBs
TEs
(you can debate QB I guess)
This year I think the Texans now have parity at running back vs Dallas, and
regarding the other offensive position groups the Texans are equivalent or superior to Dallas talent wise.

Dutchrudder
07-22-2010, 12:57 PM
Name one GM in the league who would trade as much for Miles Austin as they would for AJ. Just one. Nobody? Ok.

jaayteetx
07-22-2010, 12:59 PM
Austin has a lot better help around him as well.

Better:
O-Line
WRs
RBs
TEs
(you can debate QB I guess)

A LOT better, really? Lets see, Owen Daniels is a top 5 TE in this league. Granted he is coming off an injury, but seeing how he has performed well in the past coming off the same injury it doesn't worry me. Our WRs, I would take over Dallas's every day of the week. O-line, Dallas has huge questions at the LT spot this year. Granted they have better interior linemen. I would say Dallas has a slight advantage on paper at RB right now but I could easily see our guys outperforming them this year.

jaayteetx
07-22-2010, 01:02 PM
Name one GM in the league who would trade as much for Miles Austin as they would for AJ. Just one. Nobody? Ok.

Al Davis?

Tailgate
07-22-2010, 01:04 PM
Curious. Has Andre Johnson ever been on the cover of Sports Illustrated??? :pissed:

http://www.cowboysmedia.com/gallery/files/1/austin_miles_si_cover.jpg

HoustonFrog
07-22-2010, 01:05 PM
A LOT better, really? Lets see, Owen Daniels is a top 5 TE in this league. Granted he is coming off an injury, but seeing how he has performed well in the past coming off the same injury it doesn't worry me. Our WRs, I would take over Dallas's every day of the week. O-line, Dallas has huge questions at the LT spot this year. Granted they have better interior linemen. I would say Dallas has a slight advantage on paper at RB right now but I could easily see our guys outperforming them this year.

Let's calm down here...last I checked Witten was a pretty damn good TE and Pro Bowler. They have strong WRs..AJ is the best of both teams but I wouldn't say Walter and Jacoby outshine everyone else. I think Barber, Felix Jones and Choice is ahead of what the Texans have right now.

But back on topic

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 01:06 PM
A LOT better, really? Owen Daniels is a top 5 TE in this league, although coming off an injury but seeing how he has performed well in the past coming off the same injury it doesn't worry me, our WRs I would take over Dallas's every day of the week. Dallas has huge questions at the LT spot this year, granted they have better interior linemen. I would say Dallas has a slight advantage on paper at RB right now but I could easily see our guys outperforming them this year.

Depth-wise they have more talent.

Witten is a better TE than OD before injury (though not the dynamic threat). Bennett may be a top-10 talent at TE if he developes this year

Williams (even though a bust), Bryant, and Crayton are deep, and I would put them ahead of our squad.

Our backfields match up well together, but the Boys have a more proven set.

I agree that LT is a big question though

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 01:12 PM
You can't, with a straight face, say that Miles Austin is better than Andre Johnson. It's not even a debate. Austin has done this for one season. Andre has done it consistently. Hell, in the last two seasons, he has had at least 100 catches with over 1500 yards in each. And he only played half of the season with Schaub in 2008. Larry Fitz, Steve Smith, Roddy White, Calvin Johnson, and Brandon Marshall are other receivers that have been doing it longer and I would take over Austin right now. Let's see how Austin does this season and next first before trying to crown him as anything other than the best WR on the Cowboys.

Texecutioner
07-22-2010, 01:15 PM
Interesting article and I thought it had some pretty analysis in there. I love Austin as a WR and I think he'll be good for a very long time.

However, it's a huge stretch to say that he's better than AJ after just one great season when AJ has had like 8. Austin is a great player though and he's great at blocking and doing other things besides just being a play making threat. Calling him better than AJ right now though is just asinine.

HOU-TEX
07-22-2010, 01:17 PM
The dude has one good year and now he's better than AJ?

I reckon the off-season takes it's toll on "writers" too.

:facepalm:

infantrycak
07-22-2010, 01:18 PM
Witten is a better TE than OD before injury (though not the dynamic threat).

That's a very dubious assertion. If OD had continued his season he would have mopped the floor with Witten last year. But let's just do this one. 16 games 2 TD's for Witten, 7 games 5 TD's for OD. Witten is very good though.

b0ng
07-22-2010, 01:20 PM
Same writer that used crazy metrics to assert that Fred Bennett was going to be the next big thing at CB. So, grain of salt and all that.

nero THE zero
07-22-2010, 01:21 PM
That's a very dubious assertion. If OD had continued his season he would have mopped the floor with Witten last year. But let's just do this one. 16 games 2 TD's for Witten, 7 games 5 TD's for OD. Witten is very good though.

Witten's worlds better blocking. OD's a better receiver. I'd call it a wash but wouldn't have a problem with giving either TE a slight edge.

TexasBoY25
07-22-2010, 01:21 PM
Child Please!!

jaayteetx
07-22-2010, 01:23 PM
Let's calm down here...last I checked Witten was a pretty damn good TE and Pro Bowler. They have strong WRs..AJ is the best of both teams but I wouldn't say Walter and Jacoby outshine everyone else. I think Barber, Felix Jones and Choice is ahead of what the Texans have right now.

But back on topic

Last I checked, so was OD.

JB
07-22-2010, 01:26 PM
As a massive Cowboy fan I don't even think Austin is close AJ right now. First AJ does it every year and not only does it but does it consistently. I think Austin has that potential but he has a couple more years to prove it and I don't think he will get the numbers with the teammates he has. Coordinators do look for him though. When I was at the Boys/Minny playoff game last year I could see the whole field from up high and they double Austin all day and left Roy E one on one...worked.

And that is the biggest difference imo. They double Austin and shut him down. They double AJ and he still puts up huge numbers.

Stemp
07-22-2010, 01:27 PM
No, but he made the cover for the magazine of the company the guy writes for.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l165/procanes/sc000784f7.jpg

jaayteetx
07-22-2010, 01:30 PM
Child Please!!

What he said.

Jackie Chiles
07-22-2010, 01:30 PM
Can't draw an accurate picture with one season's worth of data. See Bennett, Fred. Austin is a heck of a receiver but Dre is still the king. Long live the king.

HOU-TEX
07-22-2010, 01:32 PM
Witten's worlds better blocking. OD's a better receiver. I'd call it a wash but wouldn't have a problem with giving either TE a slight edge.

Agreed for the most part. I do think OD's blocking is better than what he gets credit for though.

JWarren14
07-22-2010, 01:32 PM
Just wanted to get some decent discussion on the board since we have nothing to really talk about between now and the 30th.

AJ is still top dog IMO. I am excited about this season because I truly think Jacoby fulfills his potential and teams won't be able to double AJ as much because JJ will stretch the field.

AJ is about to break some records next year.

I just hope we get to the playoffs so we can keep the silent giant happy.

HoustonFrog
07-22-2010, 01:37 PM
That's a very dubious assertion. If OD had continued his season he would have mopped the floor with Witten last year. But let's just do this one. 16 games 2 TD's for Witten, 7 games 5 TD's for OD. Witten is very good though.

Last I checked, so was OD.


Problem is Jay, you didn't even mention it...like an injured OD was an automatic. Last season maybe and Witten still had 94 grabs and was an All-Pro. Witten is in his 8th season and has had seasons of 87, 66, 64, 96, 81, 94 catches. He is one of only a few..less than 10.. TE in history to post more than 3 consecutive 60 plus catch season. He has been a Pro Bowler 6 times with 1 1st Team All-Pro and 2 2nd Team All-Pros.

Again, though, this has digressed into a faux rivalry thread instead of the original premise...AJ v Austin...which AJ easily wins on consistency, being a solo weapon even when doubled and pure numbers over the years.

TimeKiller
07-22-2010, 01:44 PM
Seriously?

In 5 seasons of full health, AJ has caught 20+ more passes twice, 34 more once, equaled (well, 2 catches less) once and the one season AJ fully concedes to Austin was his rookie season (i.e. as the only offensive passing threat). Cornerstone of offense category: AJ 1, MA 0

Years having been a badass: AJ 6, having one year shortened by injury (which if he wasn't injured would easily have been 7), MA 1. Scoreboard is AJ 2, MA 0.

MA has yet to reach 1500 yards in a season. AJ has done it twice. MA has gone over 1,000 yards receiving once, AJ 4 times having missed it by 25 yards his rookie season and missed it his injury shortened season which undoubtedly would've surpassed the mark. AJ 3, MA 0.

MA yards-per-game has been over 80 once. AJ ypg has been almost 100 3 times. AJ 4, MA 0.

Add to this that AJ likely saw a higher percentage of double teams against a lot of teams that have already played against him a few times, rather than leaving a single guy on a breakout-season-having no name. AJ 5, MA 0.

Probowls? MA 1, AJ 4. Scoreboard is AJ 6, MA 0.

All pro selections? MA 0, AJ 2. Scoreboard is AJ 7, MA 0.

Being first in any receving category for a year? MA 0, AJ twice in total receiving yards, twice ypg receiving and twice in total receptions. I'ma give AJ twice the points, AJ 9, MA 0.

Recognized nation wide as the top receiver today, been compared to Jerry Rice and doesn't need some stupid technical ass column using stats as a "legitimate" method of comparison? Andre. Lamont. Johnson. 10, Miles Austin, 0.

Suck it Joyner.

Hookem Horns
07-22-2010, 01:47 PM
So if Miles Austin played for the Texans and Andre Johnson played for the Cowboys do you think this guy would have written this article? Do you even think anyone would know who Miles Austin is? No, of course not.

End of discussion.

Goldensilence
07-22-2010, 02:08 PM
This article warrants as much discussion as the idea of TO being a Texan.

None.

Texas T
07-22-2010, 02:22 PM
Seriously?

In 5 seasons of full health, AJ has caught 20+ more passes twice, 34 more once, equaled (well, 2 catches less) once and the one season AJ fully concedes to Austin was his rookie season (i.e. as the only offensive passing threat). Cornerstone of offense category: AJ 1, MA 0

Years having been a badass: AJ 6, having one year shortened by injury (which if he wasn't injured would easily have been 7), MA 1. Scoreboard is AJ 2, MA 0.

MA has yet to reach 1500 yards in a season. AJ has done it twice. MA has gone over 1,000 yards receiving once, AJ 4 times having missed it by 25 yards his rookie season and missed it his injury shortened season which undoubtedly would've surpassed the mark. AJ 3, MA 0.

MA yards-per-game has been over 80 once. AJ ypg has been almost 100 3 times. AJ 4, MA 0.

Add to this that AJ likely saw a higher percentage of double teams against a lot of teams that have already played against him a few times, rather than leaving a single guy on a breakout-season-having no name. AJ 5, MA 0.

Probowls? MA 1, AJ 4. Scoreboard is AJ 6, MA 0.

All pro selections? MA 0, AJ 2. Scoreboard is AJ 7, MA 0.

Being first in any receving category for a year? MA 0, AJ twice in total receiving yards, twice ypg receiving and twice in total receptions. I'ma give AJ twice the points, AJ 9, MA 0.

Recognized nation wide as the top receiver today, been compared to Jerry Rice and doesn't need some stupid technical ass column using stats as a "legitimate" method of comparison? Andre. Lamont. Johnson. 10, Miles Austin, 0.

Suck it Joyner.


I would like to add a THHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BIG TORO
07-22-2010, 02:22 PM
Curious. Has Andre Johnson ever been on the cover of Sports Illustrated??? :pissed:

http://www.cowboysmedia.com/gallery/files/1/austin_miles_si_cover.jpg


http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=205880&vid=4

He was on the cover for ESPN! Still looking for SI, I remember and issue that had a section on him, but not sure if he was on the cover.

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 02:25 PM
Witten's worlds better blocking. OD's a better receiver. I'd call it a wash but wouldn't have a problem with giving either TE a slight edge.

Witten is a better total package, but OD is a better play-maker IMO.

TimeKiller
07-22-2010, 02:54 PM
I would like to add a THHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it?

drs23
07-22-2010, 03:06 PM
I don't get it?

+1 here :idonno:

RTP2110
07-22-2010, 03:15 PM
Wow, dude did all that research just to show that Austin had a better YPC than AJ last season? I mean really, that's all his article showed.

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 03:39 PM
AJ makes everyone around him better. Austin is made better because of his surrounding talent.

That was my point.

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 03:52 PM
For fun, I went to the Cowboys forum and asked if they would do a Andre Johnson for Miles Austin trade straight up. Already, three responses saying no. One saying because he was "statistically better this season, it's only plausible to say he'll be better next season and the next". Funny stuff. You have to register to join in: http://www.cowboys-forum.com/showthread.php?7258-Austin-vs.-Johnson-per-ESPN&p=115414#post115414

It's a clean looking forum. I wonder what TexansTalk would look like in the new vBulletin format.

Tailgate
07-22-2010, 04:14 PM
KC apparently couldnt take all the bashing and chimed in:

kcjoyner1 (7/22/2010 at 2:54 PM)
Report Violation
KC Joyner here. To those who say Austin was crowned after one year, I would say two things. First, Johnson started getting play as the best WR in the league in 2004 after he had only big season. Second, if one season doesn't cut, then why is Chris Johnson being called the best RB in the league? He had one season that was head and shoulders above everyone else and yet that seems to be more than enough to put him over the top in most people's eyes. The same rule should apply with Austin.

TheRealJoker
07-22-2010, 04:16 PM
KC apparently couldnt take all the bashing and chimed in:

kcjoyner1 (7/22/2010 at 2:54 PM)
Report Violation
KC Joyner here. To those who say Austin was crowned after one year, I would say two things. First, Johnson started getting play as the best WR in the league in 2004 after he had only big season. Second, if one season doesn't cut, then why is Chris Johnson being called the best RB in the league? He had one season that was head and shoulders above everyone else and yet that seems to be more than enough to put him over the top in most people's eyes. The same rule should apply with Austin.

And yet, 6 years later he's still getting touted as the best... Will Austin have that type of staying power? Or will he be forgotten when the next "Miles Austin" has an impressive season?

dalemurphy
07-22-2010, 04:24 PM
I bought KC's book in 2004. I liked his perspective on statistics and the research he was doing. As I've said before, though, his conclusions are consistently poor. They were poor when he predicted that David Carr and Kyle Boller would be the next great NFL QBs. They were poor when they rated Amobi Okoye among the best DTs in the NFL, and they are poor once again if they are elevating Miles Austin anywhere near Andre Johnson's level.

Rey
07-22-2010, 04:24 PM
I don't understand analyzing vertical stats...

Our offense is designed around shorter routes than the cowboys offense.

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 04:37 PM
All I had to due was post Andre's Arizona catch to shut up the Cowboys fans. You don't see plays like that from Miles Austin. He was almost always wide the hell open, or it was a simple catch he made on man to man coverage.

JB
07-22-2010, 04:39 PM
Joyner is really getting flamed...even by the cowboy fans.

drs23
07-22-2010, 04:52 PM
All I had to due was post Andre's Arizona catch to shut up the Cowboys fans. You don't see plays like that from Miles Austin. He was almost always wide the hell open, or it was a simple catch he made on man to man coverage.

I was just wondering if anyone had done that! Kudos GB. Shut 'em up, did it? Yeah, I'd like to see Miles drag 3 full grow men into the end zone like that.

Texas T
07-22-2010, 05:01 PM
I don't get it?

Add a tongue sticking out and spit flying.
I know kinda juvenile but that's the way I am!

By the way it's directed at the article not you...

Goatcheese
07-22-2010, 05:16 PM
Miles Austin is a very good receiver, but he doesn't have the ability to beat a defense when they scheme against him(maybe some day he will). I would love to have the guy on my team and have ever since I advocated for him in the draft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB5LadLJIgA

For YPA to be an accurate measurement you need to include statics on how often they were thrown to when open, covered, and double covered(at a minimum)and preferably have stats on how many of the passes were actually catchable. AJ gets the ball thrown his way whether there's 5 guys hanging off of him or not and that drops his YPA metrics.

Statistics are a powerful tool when you put them in a full context, but just taking one statistic(YPA) and using it as an arbitrary metric to decide who's best without having a greater context isn't very reliable.

infantrycak
07-22-2010, 06:14 PM
I don't understand analyzing vertical stats...

Our offense is designed around shorter routes than the cowboys offense.

Questionable. Schaub had 62 passes over 20 yds and 15 over 40 yards. Romo had 61 over 20 yards and 17 over 40 yards. We take plenty of shots down the field.

Big Lou
07-22-2010, 06:31 PM
WTF kind of categorys were these that this guy came up with. Heres one more for him:

OK, in the category of wearing green pants (Cowboys Gray), Austin was the clear winner with 16 times this last year.


THE WAY TO DETERMINE WHO THE BEST WR IS IN THE NFL?????? Just watch the Texans/Cards game from last year when AJ blew a CB, a Safety, and a B for a TD.
Well that and the fact AJ caught over 1,500 yards. (For the second year in a row)

infantrycak
07-22-2010, 07:02 PM
Well that and the fact AJ caught over 1,500 yards. (For the second year in a row)

And in doing so became just the second WR to have back to back 1500+ yard seasons (Marvin Harrison - Jerry Rice missed by one yard) and the second WR to lead the league in receiving in back to back years (Jerry Rice). If he goes for three he will stand alone on both those.

JB
07-22-2010, 07:07 PM
And in doing so became just the second WR to have back to back 1500+ yard seasons (Marvin Harrison - Jerry Rice missed by one yard) and the second WR to lead the league in receiving in back to back years (Jerry Rice). If he goes for three he will stand alone on both those.

I think if he stays healthy he can do both this year. He may drop off a tad because of the increased production from the running game, JJ & KW not to mention if Daniels comes back and has a season like pre injury. Damn, this offense can be downright scary. If the can hold their own against all the 3-4 teams we play this year.

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 07:09 PM
I think if he stays healthy he can do both this year. He may drop off a tad because of the increased production from the running game, JJ & KW not to mention if Daniels comes back and has a season like pre injury. Damn, this offense can be downright scary. If the can hold their own against all the 3-4 teams we play this year.

I think he can get over 1500 yards again, but it'll probably come with less than 100 catches (though maybe more TDs).

JB
07-22-2010, 07:15 PM
I think he can get over 1500 yards again, but it'll probably come with less than 100 catches (though maybe more TDs).

May be less than 100, but it may also still be good enough to be at the top of the league. Fitz will have Leinhart this year instead of Warner. Austin will be pulling many more double teams this year. Who do you see sure to catch over 100 this year?

redwhiteANDblue
07-22-2010, 07:20 PM
Austin has a lot better help around him.

Better:
O-Line
WRs
RBs
TEs
(you can debate QB I guess)

WR, TE(maybe), and QB. We are better at those positions then the cowgirls

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 07:30 PM
May be less than 100, but it may also still be good enough to be at the top of the league. Fitz will have Leinhart this year instead of Warner. Austin will be pulling many more double teams this year. Who do you see sure to catch over 100 this year?

If Wes Welker can come back healthy, then I think he can.

JB
07-22-2010, 07:35 PM
If Wes Welker can come back healthy, then I think he can.

I agree. But that is a pretty big if at this point. I am not sure that his first few games will be all that productive, even if he can start the first game of the season.

Second Honeymoon
07-22-2010, 07:44 PM
Foolish article
miles Austin has a few good games and starts banging a Kardashian and all of a sudden people are ready to enshrine him in Canton

AJ is comparable to true greats like Irvin and Rice
Miles is comparable to nothing

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 07:55 PM
Cowboy fans are dumb. I'm a troll because I said Austin has to do this consistently in order for him to even get a seat at the WR elite table. LOL. Cowboy fans can't have different opinions at their board.

Austrian
07-22-2010, 08:02 PM
May be less than 100, but it may also still be good enough to be at the top of the league. Fitz will have Leinhart this year instead of Warner. Austin will be pulling many more double teams this year. Who do you see sure to catch over 100 this year?

Brandon Marshall usually was good for a 100 catch season. I don't know if he can do that with the fins, but he's a candidate.

JB
07-22-2010, 08:09 PM
Brandon Marshall usually was good for a 100 catch season. I don't know if he can do that with the fins, but he's a candidate.

He is, but then Andre is a candidate too right? I am just saying that Andre has a very good chance for his unprecedented double three peat. May not happen, but it would be glorious if it did. No?

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 08:35 PM
WR, TE(maybe), and QB. We are better at those positions then the cowgirls

I would disagree with the WRs. I think KW would be the No.5 wideout there. I have long been a believer that AJ elevates the play of those around him more than they ever help him.

KW and JJ are good role players, but none of them could ever be considered a No. 1. I think KW is our Peerless Price.

As much of a bust as he has been with the Cowboys, Roy was a excellent No. 1 in Detroit. Bryant has a high ceiling as well.

I am a Cowboys fan along with being a Texans fan, but Austin is no in AJ's area code.

I would love to see AJ with the supporting cast Austin does.

JB
07-22-2010, 08:44 PM
I would disagree with the WRs. I think KW would be the No.5 wideout there. I have long been a believer that AJ elevates the play of those around him more than they ever help him.

KW and JJ are good role players, but none of them could ever be considered a No. 1. I think KW is our Peerless Price.

As much of a bust as he has been with the Cowboys, Roy was a excellent No. 1 in Detroit. Bryant has a high ceiling as well.

I am a Cowboys fan along with being a Texans fan, but Austin is no in AJ's area code.

I would love to see AJ with the supporting cast Austin does.

Excelent #1? He had one good year. 2006 where he caught his season high for 82 catches, 1310 yds & 7 td's. Not a all-pro year by any stretch. And that was his best, and only season over 1000 yds. And only two seasons over 800 yds.

Check your facts before making a statement like that.

infantrycak
07-22-2010, 08:57 PM
I would disagree with the WRs. I think KW would be the No.5 wideout there.

Huh? Walter in an injury plagued and shortened season matched the production of Williams or Crayton. The two years prior to that he out produced both substantially.

GuerillaBlack
07-22-2010, 09:00 PM
I would disagree with the WRs. I think KW would be the No.5 wideout there. I have long been a believer that AJ elevates the play of those around him more than they ever help him.

KW and JJ are good role players, but none of them could ever be considered a No. 1. I think KW is our Peerless Price.

As much of a bust as he has been with the Cowboys, Roy was a excellent No. 1 in Detroit. Bryant has a high ceiling as well.

I am a Cowboys fan along with being a Texans fan, but Austin is no in AJ's area code.

I would love to see AJ with the supporting cast Austin does.

Exactly, and that's what I've been telling Cowboy fans. They're actually some lurking this forum right now and posting my posts here over there. LOL. But anyway, Austin has to just do it consistently before getting a seat at the table. And even then, I'd put him in the Roddy White and Steve Smith tier first. He's not up there with AJ, Larry Fitz, and Marshall. Not yet.

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 09:01 PM
Huh? Walter in an injury plagued and shortened season matched the production of Williams or Crayton. The two years prior to that he out produced both substantially.

By being the other guy on the field opposite Andre Johnson. Again, he's Peerless Price 2.0.

I've wanted our No. 2 WR spot upgraded for four years now.

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 09:02 PM
Exactly, and that's what I've been telling Cowboy fans. They're actually some lurking this forum right now and posting my posts here over there. LOL. But anyway, Austin has to just do it consistently before getting a seat at the table. And even then, I'd put him in the Roddy White and Steve Smith tier first. He's not up there with AJ, Larry Fitz, and Marshall. Not yet.

He's a one-trick pony IMO. Great deep threat, that is all. A poor man's Steve Smith right now.

JB
07-22-2010, 09:04 PM
By being the other guy on the field opposite Andre Johnson. Again, he's Peerless Price 2.0.

I've wanted our No. 2 WR spot upgraded for four years now.

There is not too many #2's out there that can handle the blocking responsibilities that KW is asked to do. He is blocking down on DE's a large % of plays, and does it very well.

infantrycak
07-22-2010, 09:09 PM
By being the other guy on the field opposite Andre Johnson. Again, he's Peerless Price 2.0.

I've wanted our No. 2 WR spot upgraded for four years now.

As JB points out, I think you are underrating the total package. Walter is better at the multitude and quality of routes he runs, finding holes in coverage and blocking. If he needs upgrading then I'd say the Cowboys need to upgrade their #2 and Walter certainly would not be #5 on the team.

The1ApplePie
07-22-2010, 09:09 PM
There is not too many #2's out there that can handle the blocking responsibilities that KW is asked to do. He is blocking down on DE's a large % of plays, and does it very well.

He is a monster blocker, I will give you that.

I like the guy, but I would love to see more play-making at the 2 spot. Maybe JJ can be that guy.

PapaL
07-22-2010, 09:10 PM
KC is all vuvuzela. Horrible sound and no substance.

imatexan
07-23-2010, 02:01 AM
:mcnugget:

Shouldn't even be a discussion, is it really that slow of an offseason!?

HOU-TEX
07-23-2010, 08:43 AM
I think even with drafting Bryant, and his potential, I think the WR position is about even with Dullass.

Plus, I think this guy can blanket Roy Williams in coverage.

http://www.lostlettermen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/andre-smith.jpg

Mr teX
07-23-2010, 09:10 AM
Problem is Jay, you didn't even mention it...like an injured OD was an automatic. Last season maybe and Witten still had 94 grabs and was an All-Pro. Witten is in his 8th season and has had seasons of 87, 66, 64, 96, 81, 94 catches. He is one of only a few..less than 10.. TE in history to post more than 3 consecutive 60 plus catch season. He has been a Pro Bowler 6 times with 1 1st Team All-Pro and 2 2nd Team All-Pros.

Again, though, this has digressed into a faux rivalry thread instead of the original premise...AJ v Austin...which AJ easily wins on consistency, being a solo weapon even when doubled and pure numbers over the years.

Yeah, I love what OD does for us, but witten's that dude..really the only one in the cowboys organization i care for..Dude just goes out & balls every game..

Section516
07-23-2010, 09:13 AM
Yeah, I love what OD does for us, but witten's that dude..really the only one in the cowboys organization i care for..Dude just goes out & balls every game..

The play when he ran down field, blood streaking down his face, without a helmet?

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll81/mydral1/brass_balls_keychain_540.jpg

HOU-TEX
07-23-2010, 09:25 AM
Y'all do realize that OD played with a broken beak, right? The dude got his face smashed in and still thought to grab the ball. *That fumble was bull**** and I'll never forget it...bastages*

hobie
07-23-2010, 09:37 AM
On the espn website, in the NFL section, the poll for today asks which WR is better, AM or AJ. Right now AJ is smoking him, but it was just posted.. BUT, in Texas, the votes are going to AM. Guess more Dallas fans are voting for AM..
Guess they forget AJ is doubled or a safety is cheating over on him while AM is in single coverage.. Oh well, it's good for a debate if you're a Cowboys homer...

Blake
07-23-2010, 10:29 AM
I love how this guy can write an article using certain stats to prove his side of the argument, but ignore the stats that matter.

Jagsbch
07-23-2010, 10:43 AM
7 Td's per season average makes for a very overrated receiver.

I still remember being pissed that Jimmy smith who had a better season got passed by for Johnson in the probowl selection:pirate:.

HOU-TEX
07-23-2010, 10:52 AM
7 Td's per season average makes for a very overrated receiver.

I still remember being pissed that Jimmy smith who had a better season got passed by for Johnson in the probowl selection:pirate:.

No offense, but after reading through your lovefest of Leftwich, you've got absolutely 0 credibility here. At least to me anyways. Sorry

Dutchrudder
07-23-2010, 10:58 AM
Hey guys! By this logic, Matt Schaub is the best QB in the league! He had more passing yards than Peyton or Brees! OMG! We have the best QB in the NFL! We're so awesome!


lol... what a joke of an article. Just some ESPN hack trying to drum up web hits during the slow season.

zanth91
07-23-2010, 11:04 AM
Y'all do realize that OD played with a broken beak, right? The dude got his face smashed in and still thought to grab the ball. *That fumble was bull**** and I'll never forget it...bastages*

I agree, that was a BS call on the fumble. His entire shin was clearly down. It was made up for though when they said Bush fumbled at the 1.

BIG TORO
07-23-2010, 11:15 AM
On the espn website, in the NFL section, the poll for today asks which WR is better, AM or AJ. Right now AJ is smoking him, but it was just posted.. BUT, in Texas, the votes are going to AM. Guess more Dallas fans are voting for AM..
Guess they forget AJ is doubled or a safety is cheating over on him while AM is in single coverage.. Oh well, it's good for a debate if you're a Cowboys homer...

Actually in AJ is winning in TX too, the only state that MA is winning in is New Hamshire and what do they know about football.

hobie
07-23-2010, 11:22 AM
Actually in AJ is winning in TX too, the only state that MA is winning in is New Hamshire and what do they know about football.

He is now.. back when it was first posted and there were like 9 votes in TX., AJ was behind.. Guess when others finally got around to seeing it, that changed in a hurry..

JB
07-23-2010, 11:25 AM
Actually in AJ is winning in TX too, the only state that MA is winning in is New Hamshire and what do they know about football.

Not even winning there now

Texas T
07-23-2010, 11:50 AM
I just voted (for AJ of course), and the only state that is even close is Nevada.

BIG TORO
07-23-2010, 11:57 AM
Here is a link to poll so we can keep up with it:http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=nfl&pollId=94518

Not that we don't know who is going to win! :lol:

Texecutioner
07-23-2010, 11:59 AM
And in doing so became just the second WR to have back to back 1500+ yard seasons (Marvin Harrison - Jerry Rice missed by one yard) and the second WR to lead the league in receiving in back to back years (Jerry Rice). If he goes for three he will stand alone on both those.

He most likely would have led the league in receiving yards the year before the first 1,500 yard season as well. If you remember, he played like 9 games and had like 800 something yards and like 8 TD's. Personally I think if Andre would have continued that season without the injury, that it would have been his best season. He easily would have gone into the double digits with TD's that year.

Texecutioner
07-23-2010, 12:06 PM
As much of a bust as he has been with the Cowboys, Roy was a excellent No. 1 in Detroit. Bryant has a high ceiling as well.



You're kidding right??? Roy Williams was an excellent #1 in Detroit?? He was a complete disaster of a #1 WR in Detroit. The guy was terrible. He was a top 10 pick and only went over 1,000 yards once while he was there. He was repeatedly criticized for not working hard and for being soft there as well. He was a complete bust in Detroit and an even bigger bust in Dallas considering what Jerry gave up for him and how much he paid Roy to come to Dallas. That was by far one of the worst trades of the decade that Jerry made. I was shocked when Jerry pulled the trigger on that trade after seeing what he gave up for Roy Williams. It scares the hell out of me as well thinking back on it and wondering what Jerry could have done with those picks he gave away.

Jagsbch
07-23-2010, 12:06 PM
No offense, but after reading through your lovefest of Leftwich, you've got absolutely 0 credibility here. At least to me anyways. Sorry

7 TDs per season average effects Johnsons credibility, it absolutely nothing to do mine.

Texecutioner
07-23-2010, 12:12 PM
He's a one-trick pony IMO. Great deep threat, that is all. A poor man's Steve Smith right now.

Are you saying that Austin is just a one trick pony and just a deep threat? If so, I'd have to ask if you even watched the guy last year. Austin made plays all over the field for the Cowboys. And Austin is an excellent blocker as well. That was one of my favorite things about the guy. Also while you're knocking Walter, Austin is very much like Walter with a lot of the small things he does, and that's a big reason why I've liked Austin a lot.

And Steve Smith is not just some one trick pony deep threat either. I've watched Smith take short passes up the field for years. He can make plays all over the field.

One trick pony types are guys like Lee Evans, Bernard Berrian, and Donte Stallworth types.

Big Lou
07-23-2010, 12:18 PM
I just voted (for AJ of course), and the only state that is even close is Nevada.

I unfortunatley live in Las Vegas, a transplant from Houston. Threre are a ton of Dallas people here. (Guess I'd rather have Dallasonians (What the hell is someon from Dallas called?) than all these people from So Cal.)


ANYWAY I REQUEST THE MODS TAKE THIS THREAD OFF THE BOARD. IT'S JUST PISSING ME OFF THAT ANYBODY, AND I MEAN ANYBODY WOULD/COULD THINK THAT AUSTIN IS EVEN IN AJ'S REALM, PLEASE........

Austin should consider himself lucky if AJ was to let him bring AJ water during time outs.....

BIG TORO
07-23-2010, 12:25 PM
100% of Hawaii, Montana, Missisippi believe AJ is a better WR.

JB
07-23-2010, 12:44 PM
Looks like they took the poll down now. It was so lop sided I guess they wanted to save Joyner more ridicule. Last I saw it was 86%-14%

dc_txtech
07-23-2010, 12:47 PM
Are you saying that Austin is just a one trick pony and just a deep threat? If so, I'd have to ask if you even watched the guy last year. Austin made plays all over the field for the Cowboys. And Austin is an excellent blocker as well. That was one of my favorite things about the guy. Also while you're knocking Walter, Austin is very much like Walter with a lot of the small things he does, and that's a big reason why I've liked Austin a lot.

And Steve Smith is not just some one trick pony deep threat either. I've watched Smith take short passes up the field for years. He can make plays all over the field.

One trick pony types are guys like Lee Evans, Bernard Berrian, and Donte Stallworth types.

Yeah, I'll cosign on this. I picked up Austin in my fantasy league the week he got the starting nod. The guy made all kinds of plays all over the field. He's gonna be a good receiver for a long time IMO.

With that said, he isn't in the same league as Andre Johnson.

Texas T
07-23-2010, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I'll cosign on this. I picked up Austin in my fantasy league the week he got the starting nod. The guy made all kinds of plays all over the field. He's gonna be a good receiver for a long time IMO.

With that said, he isn't in the same league as Andre Johnson.

I think this sums up how most of the people here feel.
He's good-not great yet!

spurstexanstros
07-23-2010, 01:39 PM
Why is it Cowboys fans and their media assume that each of their players is the best at their position?
I hate their logic

Romo is a Cowboy therfore Romo is best quarter back in the league
Barber is a Cowboy therfore Barber is the best rb in the league.
and now Austin is a Cowboy therefore Austin is best WR in the league.

Their fans take this Americas team to the extreme...i have lived and traveled in and around other NFL cities...they hate the Cowboys....I mean hate them a real gutterral hatred.

To say Austin is better than AJ is not only myopic, its down right insanity.

WWJD
07-23-2010, 02:15 PM
Why is it Cowboys fans and their media assume that each of their players is the best at their position?
I hate their logic

Romo is a Cowboy therfore Romo is best quarter back in the league
Barber is a Cowboy therfore Barber is the best rb in the league.
and now Austin is a Cowboy therefore Austin is best WR in the league.

Their fans take this Americas team to the extreme...i have lived and traveled in and around other NFL cities...they hate the Cowboys....I mean hate them a real gutterral hatred.

To say Austin is better than AJ is not only myopic, its down right insanity.

I'm a Cowboys fan as most know and no I don't think Miles is anywhere near Johnson. That's just a stupid argument. One has done it for multiple years and Miles hasn't. He still has to prove last year was no fluke. That being said he came in that KC game and made his mark. No reason he won't continue that

Every player has to prove themself year after year I think. One of the things that separates "good" from "great" are the guys that do just that. Like Peyton. Like Brees. Like Brady. Like Johnson.

There are 2 Cowboys that I would consider close to the best at their position. Ware and Ratliff. That would be it. I've NEVER heard any Cowboys fan that thinks that Barber is the best RB in the league. Ever. He's not even the best RB on the team.

But back on topic..I don't even think Miles Austin's mama thinks he's better than Andre. Seriously.

edo783
07-23-2010, 10:46 PM
In the words of Reba McKintire (sp), "MORON Alert" regarding Joyner.

Texans_Chick
07-23-2010, 11:40 PM
I haven't looked at coach's tape of course, but deducing from public statements on the subject by people with better information than me, I'm guessing Andre Johnson gets as much extra coverage on him as any wide receiver in the entire league.

To look at his bare numbers without taking that into consideration--how he can get those sick numbers and how much he can help other receivers by getting them more open--is stupid headed. Most statisticians would acknowledge that this is something difficult to track, even with the best game charters due to TV angles.

I can't say that I have been particularly impressed with KC's last couple articles involving Texans subjects. The Kubiak article got downright silly. And this is remarkably even sillier.

76Texan
07-24-2010, 01:17 AM
KC apparently couldnt take all the bashing and chimed in:

kcjoyner1 (7/22/2010 at 2:54 PM)
Report Violation
KC Joyner here. To those who say Austin was crowned after one year, I would say two things. First, Johnson started getting play as the best WR in the league in 2004 after he had only big season. Second, if one season doesn't cut, then why is Chris Johnson being called the best RB in the league? He had one season that was head and shoulders above everyone else and yet that seems to be more than enough to put him over the top in most people's eyes. The same rule should apply with Austin.

I have no idea Joyner can be so uninformed!

TimeKiller
07-24-2010, 07:50 PM
KC apparently couldnt take all the bashing and chimed in:

kcjoyner1 (7/22/2010 at 2:54 PM)
Report Violation
KC Joyner here. To those who say Austin was crowned after one year, I would say two things. First, Johnson started getting play as the best WR in the league in 2004 after he had only big season. Second, if one season doesn't cut, then why is Chris Johnson being called the best RB in the league? He had one season that was head and shoulders above everyone else and yet that seems to be more than enough to put him over the top in most people's eyes. The same rule should apply with Austin.

CJ having an "all-time" season at RB >>>>> Austin breaking out from nobody to top 10 or so current WRs. Austin is a debate for top 5, a debate that undoubtedly includes AJ because after AJ was crowned all he did was go and get even better. Austin wasn't better than AJ THIS season, how you gonna call it out for NEXT season?

Dutchrudder
07-24-2010, 07:55 PM
KC apparently couldnt take all the bashing and chimed in:

kcjoyner1 (7/22/2010 at 2:54 PM)
Report Violation
KC Joyner here. To those who say Austin was crowned after one year, I would say two things. First, Johnson started getting play as the best WR in the league in 2004 after he had only big season. Second, if one season doesn't cut, then why is Chris Johnson being called the best RB in the league? He had one season that was head and shoulders above everyone else and yet that seems to be more than enough to put him over the top in most people's eyes. The same rule should apply with Austin.

The difference is that what Miles Austin did in his fourth year was comparable to what CJ did his rookie season. If Austin goes off for 1500 yards, 10 TDs and such next year, then he may be comparable to what CJ did this year.

dalemurphy
07-24-2010, 09:01 PM
CJ having an "all-time" season at RB >>>>> Austin breaking out from nobody to top 10 or so current WRs. Austin is a debate for top 5, a debate that undoubtedly includes AJ because after AJ was crowned all he did was go and get even better. Austin wasn't better than AJ THIS season, how you gonna call it out for NEXT season?

How do other reactionary commentators and fans prove the he is right to be reactionary with his treatment of Austin after the '09 season? It is perhaps as bad an argument/justification as I've heard... and, I have three children!

wagonhed
07-24-2010, 09:29 PM
thanks for this article - I needed a good laugh

Ryan
07-25-2010, 12:38 AM
CJ having an "all-time" season at RB >>>>> Austin breaking out from nobody to top 10 or so current WRs. Austin is a debate for top 5, a debate that undoubtedly includes AJ because after AJ was crowned all he did was go and get even better. Austin wasn't better than AJ THIS season, how you gonna call it out for NEXT season?


The thing that gets me is that Austin wasn't even close to matching AJ's numbers last season, so how can Joyner assume that Austin had a better year when the numbers do NOTHING to help his case? This guy went from mediocre sports writer to Peter King level. That's about the lowest of the low. Actually, he is now equivalent with Peter King, who voted Vincent Jackson as an All-Pro OVER Andre Johnson.

Congrats Joyner.

Tailgate
07-25-2010, 10:06 AM
Cowboy fans are really picking on AJ about his TD numbers. Like he has some big weakness as a WR because of it. Pfft. Doesnt change his talents, who he is, and what he is truly capable of one bit.

http://www.cowboys-forum.com/showthread.php?7258-Austin-vs.-Johnson-per-ESPN&p=116698&posted=1#post116698

Lucky
07-25-2010, 10:15 AM
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
That's the problem with stats. They can help you understand some of the nuance of what you are seeing. But, they can't replace your eyes, altogether. You can either see the game, or not. If you can't see with your own eyes that Andre Johnson effects the game in a way that Miles Austin can't (at least not yet), then you're not really seeing the game.

That's my biggest problem with some of these stats sites that have popped up over the past few years. They'll crunch numbers and tell me that Jericho Cotchery is better than Andre Johnson. Huh? Because the data they put into the computer is produced by someone who doesn't know what he's looking at. Garbage in, garbage out.

RTP2110
07-26-2010, 07:16 AM
So using Joyner's logic, can we go ahead and proclaim Matt Schaub as the best QB in the NFL? He did have more passing yards than anyone else, so he must be the best. Who cares if Brees/Manning/Brady have done it longer right?

Section516
07-27-2010, 02:24 PM
Fun facts: Welker and Moss became the first Patriots to have back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons in 2008, and stretched that to three straight 1,000-yard seasons in 2009. ... Welker has totaled more than 100 receptions in each of the last three seasons, joining Marvin Harrison (4), Jerry Rice (3), Herman Moore (3) and Brandon Marshall (3) as the only players to catch 100 or more passes in a season.

I guess AJ doesn't count


009 Houston Texans 16 16 101 1,569 15.5 72T 9 2 10 5.0 7 0 1 0
2008 Houston Texans 16 16 115 1,575 13.7 65 8 --
2007 Houston Texans 9 9 60 851 14.2 77T 8 -- --
2006 Houston Texans 16 16 103 1,147 11.1 53 5 3 14 4.7 18 0 1 0

Receptions are bolded...

C'mon man!

Dwade
07-27-2010, 02:50 PM
Miles Austin is good, but Andre Johnson has been a force in the NFL for many years. Andre is still #1 in my book

Lucky
07-27-2010, 10:29 PM
Welker has totaled more than 100 receptions in each of the last three seasons, joining Marvin Harrison (4), Jerry Rice (3), Herman Moore (3) and Brandon Marshall (3) as the only players to catch 100 or more passes in a season.

I guess AJ doesn't count

They must mean 3 or more consecutive seasons.

JB
07-27-2010, 10:35 PM
They must mean 3 or more consecutive seasons.

Pretty sure that was it

False Start
07-28-2010, 10:56 AM
Holy crap! I just heard the most hilarious call in sports talk history on 610. This dumb ass said that Dre wasn't even a top receiver, his number one...... Miles Austin. Cowgirls fan obviously. :lol: :lol: :lol:

HoustonFrog
07-29-2010, 09:17 AM
Why is it Cowboys fans and their media assume that each of their players is the best at their position?
I hate their logic

Romo is a Cowboy therfore Romo is best quarter back in the league
Barber is a Cowboy therfore Barber is the best rb in the league.
and now Austin is a Cowboy therefore Austin is best WR in the league.

Their fans take this Americas team to the extreme...i have lived and traveled in and around other NFL cities...they hate the Cowboys....I mean hate them a real gutterral hatred.

To say Austin is better than AJ is not only myopic, its down right insanity.

Was out of town but wanted to address this. Did you read this thread?Every Cowboy fan in here says AJ is better and has been consistently great for years. Miles has that potential in their offense. Joyner, an ex-Eagle, made the argument, not Cowboy fans. As for fans, most read the media and watch their own teams and evaluate depth based on what they hear and then see on the field. Here is an example of something Peter King, whom I am no fan of, said in his camp blog about the Cowboys

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/07/28/cowboys.postcard/index.html?eref=sihp

Three Observations
1. Dallas has to have the best skill-player depth in the NFL. Felix Jones is projected to start in the backfield, with Marion Barber and Tashard Choice in reserve, and no team has a better 1-2-3 punch there. Miles Austin, Roy Williams, Dez Bryant and Patrick Crayton are a good to very good receiver group. And no one's better overall at tight end, with Jason Witten starting and Martellus Bennett (underachieving so far) behind him. And don't forget the unknown John Phillips, who's having a great camp so far (watch your back, Martellus). Phillips made a spectacular one-handed catch at practice Tuesday afternoon and is a blocking monster. Jones, by the way, missed practice today with a sore knee, but it's not considered serious.

Parting Shots
1. I won't see a team with better 1 to 80 talent (I don't think) on the rest of my trip. If Dallas stays healthy, it'll be a very tough out in the playoffs.


This is the stuff that was stated in this thread when it came to a comparison argument. The Texans have plenty of talent and AJ, in most books, is the #1 WR in the league this year. Barber isn't even the Cowboys #1 back. Romo has put up historical numbers but hasn't won anything so no one I know thinks he is the best. I think your argument is highly exaggerated.

PHAROAH
07-29-2010, 12:04 PM
Man please as soon as I saw the title of the article I knew that was crap Andre Johnson is one of the top 2 WR's in the NFL if not the best in the entire League this is non-issue imo!!!!

Playoffs
08-03-2010, 12:48 PM
None better than AJ -- he's a man!

Even when Larry Fitz was "the best", AJ was better.

sakebomb
08-03-2010, 08:33 PM
Uh, Austin isn't even the best WR on his team. LOL:kitten:


All I have been hearing is Dez this and Dez that.