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Blake
03-15-2005, 05:38 AM
I hear alot of talk about getting 2 first round picks for Pace, but I have to ask everyone, does shouldnt our #1 pick being in the top half, hold more water than lower 1st round picks?

***Note This thread has more replies, and views, in 18 hours, than the Sharper trade had in over a week. Amazing.

ccdude730
03-15-2005, 06:10 AM
the texans arent going to give away 2 first round picks to the rams, its just not gonna happen. nobody is worth that.

id still rather see us address C before LT, but thats why i dont run things

Blake
03-15-2005, 06:15 AM
the texans arent going to give away 2 first round picks to the rams, its just not gonna happen. nobody is worth that.

id still rather see us address C before LT, but thats why i dont run things

I believe you can upgrade the C position in the draft. There are 3-4 center's that I believe would be able to do a better job than Steve. But the LT position, there is only 1 player I think would be better than Wand, and not by much.

ccdude730
03-15-2005, 06:30 AM
well the reason i say that is because if we have a dominating center - and he might come from the draft - but wouldnt that allow him to take a DT 1 on 1 while letting the guard help the LT when matching up on a very good passrusher?

no doubt pace is an upgrade, thats obvious. but why make such a big commitment to a player when he might not completly solve the equation. thats my only beef with these actions.

my idea would have been to get a new center, preferrably from the draft, and continue to work with wand who will deffinatly get better as time goes on.

Blake
03-15-2005, 06:35 AM
I see your points. But I have to ask you a question. If the center gets the DT, and the LG, and LT get the DE, who gets the 1-2 linebackers doing a delayed blitz?

Also with run blocking, Pace will not get help with his man. The center will probably shoot through and get a linebacker.

You want a LT who can take on a DE without help. When ever you have to use 2 on 1 at any position, you are weakening the whole team.

Same thing on the other side of the ball. If a CB needs help to contain a WR, that means the rest of your team is playing 9 vs. - 10 football.

ccdude730
03-15-2005, 06:46 AM
well we are getting into what ifs, but hopefully the qb either knows this or a back is ready to throw a block or he buys some time and moves around in the pocket. several scenarious...but again - this is a what if and nobody knows what will happen

we did pretty well i thought with the zone blocking toward the end of the season. looked like the line started to gel and DD was doing good.

i want a LT who can take on a DE without help also - but when you go up against d freeney and a few others, all you can do is double...

Erratic Assassin
03-15-2005, 07:23 AM
Our goal was a veteran line with young developing, emerging skill players. With Pace we have what we wanted in Boselli all along. A veteran line with one of the best Tackles in the league to support young, developing skill players.

It's like having a Bruce Matthews in place in order to give Brad Hopkins enough time to develop at his own pace.

Having Orlando Pace will give Seth Wand time to develop.

gcolby
03-15-2005, 07:39 AM
I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. I spend a good chunk of time trolling the NFL pages in all the other NFL cities (I'm a programmer, it's automated), and I've been reading the St. Louis Post Dispatch for 5 years now. The Rams have issues with this guy during every off-season. They have issues with him reporting in training camp. And yes, they HAVE had issues with his durability when you get deep into the season.

Pace has been a fine OT, but he is also one that has been run into the ground, and he is one that wants too much money. The fact that the Rams have been unable to make a deal with his agent for THREE YEARS RUNNING should give you a good idea about how reasonable Pace and/or his agent is. Don't forget, when you apply the Franchise tag in successive years, you pay the average of the top 5 players at the position OR you pay a 20% increase over the previous year's salary, whichever is more favorable to the player. So Pace got two 20% raises in a row. That had to have hurt the Rams capwise, and I'm sure they'd have given anything to change the siging to a long-term deal so as to forgo the cap hit, but they were unable to.

Pace's pay demands are not going to change just because he came to Houston. He has consistently demonstrated a 'me first' attitude that all of you slam other players for. He was 'me first' on a team when it was a perennial Super Bowl contender; how do you think he is going to react when he lands on a team that just hopes to make the playoffs before his knees go out? Casserly's MO for the Texans has been to stay away from this kind of selfish player.

No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill.

Glen

Marcus
03-15-2005, 07:44 AM
No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill. Glen

I agree. To be honest, I hope the deal falls through.

Tailgate
03-15-2005, 07:51 AM
You guys are DEFINITELY in the minority. And thats for a reason. Pace would immediately improve ALL facets of our offense. Yes he costs money, yes he isnt 24.... but again, he is an immediate impact.... and a known result.

What if we kept our first rounder and drafted a bust? What if Wand NEVER materializes? There are a bunch of what ifs in the original scenario I am willing to risk to take a for sure thing....not only a for sure thing... but a frickin ALL PRO left tackle.

As long as we dont give up anything more than a 1st... and a player or maybe a 3rd... then its definitely worth it.

ccdude730
03-15-2005, 07:58 AM
if you want to include what ifs dont forget "what if he gets the injury bug and doesnt play up to his all pro potential" pace would cut down the sacks but he would not eliminate them. the rams gave up plenty of sacks last season

I agree. To be honest, I hope the deal falls through.

me too :whistle:

beerlover
03-15-2005, 08:07 AM
I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. I spend a good chunk of time trolling the NFL pages in all the other NFL cities (I'm a programmer, it's automated), and I've been reading the St. Louis Post Dispatch for 5 years now. The Rams have issues with this guy during every off-season. They have issues with him reporting in training camp. And yes, they HAVE had issues with his durability when you get deep into the season.

Pace has been a fine OT, but he is also one that has been run into the ground, and he is one that wants too much money. The fact that the Rams have been unable to make a deal with his agent for THREE YEARS RUNNING should give you a good idea about how reasonable Pace and/or his agent is. Don't forget, when you apply the Franchise tag in successive years, you pay the average of the top 5 players at the position OR you pay a 20% increase over the previous year's salary, whichever is more favorable to the player. So Pace got two 20% raises in a row. That had to have hurt the Rams capwise, and I'm sure they'd have given anything to change the siging to a long-term deal so as to forgo the cap hit, but they were unable to.

Pace's pay demands are not going to change just because he came to Houston. He has consistently demonstrated a 'me first' attitude that all of you slam other players for. He was 'me first' on a team when it was a perennial Super Bowl contender; how do you think he is going to react when he lands on a team that just hopes to make the playoffs before his knees go out? Casserly's MO for the Texans has been to stay away from this kind of selfish player.

No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill.

Glen

AGREED

the cap hit alone would stunt the Texans growth for years, how much $$$$ would the Texans then have tied up in the offensive line alone & just when Wand is ready to take the reigns he'll also command big $$$$ & thats assuming the Texans can absorb the cap hit now in the short term. no thanks I'd rather draft & develop our own people.

JustBonee
03-15-2005, 08:09 AM
Two years ago at this time, I was really excited at the talk of Pace coming to the Texans. This time around, I have my reservations about signing him. Too many questions about him .. his attitude and play ethics... talk about a BIG head .. in more ways than one.
Can't say I didn't enjoy watching him during his days at Ohio State though. He's been a fun player to watch! ..........
The award winner: Pace was among the most decorated players of all-time as the first sophomore to ever win the Lombardi Award and the first two-time winner taking the award again as a junior. In that junior season, Pace won the Outland Trophy and finished fourth in the Heisman Trophy voting behind Danny Wuerffel, Troy Davis and Jake Plummer.
http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_29_Orlando_Pace.htm
But I worry about his baggage at this point, playing at the end of his career. Does he have enough left to give, and at what price to the future of the team?

Runner
03-15-2005, 08:11 AM
I'm not real hot on Pace either. Yes he'd have an immediate impact, but I worry about the long term consequences. I think we should shore up the interior of the line, and we can do that for less money.

Although the NBA isn't a direct comparison, I'm a big fan of the Spurs, and their long term approach (with a lucky draft lottery) has paid off. It was tough in the beginning and middle years though.

nunusguy
03-15-2005, 08:15 AM
I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. Glen
Hey Gcolby, you make a lot of good points and I agree with many of them. But you know how Cass and Capers have been telling us that Wand was showing development and was gonna get it done this year - I think what we
have here is a lot of rationalizing and wishful thinking on the part of the Texans about Wand and when the opportunity came along to acquire the
best perceived solution since Bosseli to protect Carr's blindside and just
in general upgrade the whole offense with a "second chance" to get a
Bosseli - they seized the opportunity.

Marcus
03-15-2005, 08:29 AM
He could play at a Hall of Fame level for another 7 years. Plus he is better than anyone we get w/13pick. Why are some people so objective toward a 5 time Pro-Bowler and our 1st Hall of Famer(when he comes here).

What's wrong with being objective? I think you might want to choose a different word.

O.G.
03-15-2005, 08:29 AM
He could play at a Hall of Fame level for another 7 years. Plus he is better than anyone we get w/13pick. Why are some people so objective toward a 5 time Pro-Bowler and our 1st Hall of Famer(when he comes here).

I would have to agree. Who's out there at the 13th pick and a pic in the 3rd round that will be a pro bowler this year? This year is a good draft on corners and wide receivers but everything else is so so. People are still trying to figure out who the the top 5 picks will be, those are changing daily. Plus, we can't forget 13th pick is going to hit us for some money as well as signing bonus or holding out etc.

TexanBacker93
03-15-2005, 08:38 AM
I'd hate to see the Texans give up too much of their future to get Pace, but if they can get him for no more than one 1st round choice and some lower picks I don't think you can turn it down. Pace will improve the blocking in a domino like effect. This will give Carr a few extra seconds to make the throw he needs to make. It will allow the Texans to use the TE in pass routes more often. This can only help.

It wasn't Pace not reporting for camp that was the problem. He couldn't without a contract. The Rams wouldn't give him the long term he wanted. His agent was one of the Poston brothers. By far the worst thing to happen to NFL players. 95% (a number I am using only for emphasis, but most of them do involve the Postons) of contract disputes/holdouts are their clients. Pace has fired them and has a new agent. This will make dealings much better.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 08:39 AM
Can they really get 2 first rounders for him? TO and Corey Dillon were traded for 2nd rounders, I can't see Pace being worth that much more. I'd definantly give up a 1st and 3rd though since a player drafted at 13 probably has a 5% chance of being as good as Pace is.Terrell Owens was viewed by many as a cancer, and Corey Dillon was coming off a sub-par year. IMO, they do not compare with Pace, who is ranked by some pubs as a TOP 10 Player. (Not just Top 10 O-Linemen, Top 10 Period.)

Tailgate
03-15-2005, 08:42 AM
if you want to include what ifs dont forget "what if he gets the injury bug and doesnt play up to his all pro potential" pace would cut down the sacks but he would not eliminate them. the rams gave up plenty of sacks last season



But you can also equate those HEALTH what ifs to a draft pick, etc as well. (see Joppru).

But you cant equate thier FOR SURE play as you can in Pace. And ALL PRO play at that.

Blake
03-15-2005, 08:45 AM
It wasn't Pace not reporting for camp that was the problem. He couldn't without a contract. The Rams wouldn't give him the long term he wanted.

Everybody read this one more time. It says that he didnt report to camp because of contract disputes. Its not like he didnt want to go, its the fact that the Rams, and Pace, couldnt work out a deal, and you dont go to camp without a contract.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 08:48 AM
The Rams had the 8th ranked defense in the NFL that season.Yeah, in 1999, we had one of the easiest schedules, and routinely jumped out to huge leads and coasted to victory. I think any knowledgable football fan would agree it is much easier to play Defense when your opponent has to shut down their Running Game and get Pass Happy (although the Rams actually get away with it). In 2000, the Rams Defense returned with almost all its starters and gave up over 500 points on a much tougher schedule.

My Point? If your Offense can routinely jump out to big leads, a suspect Defense will appear to be better than it actually is. However, if you get into close games - like a playoff game might likely be - you will need to have decent Defensive Personnel.

Lucky
03-15-2005, 08:57 AM
But I worry about 'the baggage' at this point.
The "baggage" Pace carries has to do with getting a contract worked out with the Rams. Orlando has gotten the franchise tag 3 years in a row. After his rookie contract, Pace has never received the long term contract that players of his stature get. The responsibility for the acrimony that ensued was due as much the disjointed Rams front office (that likes to negotiate through the media) as it was Pace's choice of the Postons as agents. Pace dumped the Postons, bargained in good faith with someone in the Rams FO, and still couldn't make a deal with a team that he has excelled with for years.

Loyalty cuts both ways. Then Pace comes to Houston and agrees to a deal in a day. That tells me that maybe the Rams deserve to carry some of that "baggage".

infantrycak
03-15-2005, 09:08 AM
The "baggage" Pace carries has to do with getting a contract worked out with the Rams. Orlando has gotten the franchise tag 3 years in a row. After his rookie contract, Pace has never received the long term contract that players of his stature get. The responsibility for the acrimony that ensued was due as much the disjointed Rams front office (that likes to negotiate through the media) as it was Pace's choice of the Postons as agents.

Yup. I tend to agree that players like Pace, Jones and Darius that get repeat franchised (and in the process are being told you are worth top money) have a complaint. When a CBA extension gets worked out I won't be surprised at all to see the franchise tag get re-worked.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 09:39 AM
Yup. I tend to agree that players like Pace, Jones and Darius that get repeat franchised (and in the process are being told you are worth top money) have a complaint. When a CBA extension gets worked out I won't be surprised at all to see the franchise tag get re-worked.I agree 100%. Although the Franchise Tag directly impacts very few players, teammates of tagged players are affected by the holdouts that often result. Pace's teammates are on his side on the one hand, and not appreciating him holding out on the other hand. Either way, the NFLPA will likely strongly oppose a similar Tag arrangement in the next CBA.

Let UFA's really be Free Agents, I guess. The downside is that the great players will routinely leave their teams for ones that have the greater cap space to give them. Edgerrin James would have already been signed by someone, and so would Pace. Compensation is the only debate, since most teams won't give up 2 #1s for a Franchise-type player.

The Rams made a very generous offer ($51M) to Pace, IMO, that fits OUR Cap. Pace is saying - in essence - that he really doesn't care what our Cap issues are, just "Show me the money". Part of that stance is probably due to this being the 3rd Consecutive year being Tagged. Bridges are burning.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 09:48 AM
A good rule would be that a team cannot franchise tag the same player in consecutive years. That is an easy solution to the problem IMO.

Blake
03-15-2005, 09:48 AM
The Rams made a very generous offer ($51M) to Pace, IMO, that fits OUR Cap. Pace is saying - in essence - that he really doesn't care what our Cap issues are, just "Show me the money".

I wonder if maybe the 51 million dollar deal wasnt favorable to him. Maybe some clauses it that he didnt like.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 09:51 AM
Pace has been a great player. His issues with the Rams have all stemmed from the lack of a long-term deal.

The Bengals were lucky to get a 2nd for Corey Dillon because RB's don't last long and he has milage on him. Also, there is a perception he is a whiner, and that hurt his value. Personally, I would whine too if I had to endure the type of teams he did in Cincinnati.

T.O. was run out of town. The 49ers just got whatever they could. He is worth about 2 1st rounder IMO.

Texans32
03-15-2005, 09:51 AM
we just need to get pace cause he's awesome and would help out our line a whole lot :thumbup

Vinny
03-15-2005, 09:53 AM
The other thread is quite long and I am starting a new one so we can have two enourmous threads to dig through instead of one. ;)

This would be the biggest transaction for a player since we got the rights to Earl Campbell. I can't remember trading for a more dominant position player here in Houston since then (if it works out of course). Fingers crossed.

dmt217
03-15-2005, 09:53 AM
You guys are DEFINITELY in the minority. And thats for a reason. Pace would immediately improve ALL facets of our offense. Yes he costs money, yes he isnt 24.... but again, he is an immediate impact.... and a known result.

I wonder if Capers is getting flashbacks of his coaching job at Carolina...I'm sure we all know what happened, right?

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 09:56 AM
I hear alot of talk about getting 2 first round picks for Pace, but I have to ask everyone, does shouldnt our #1 pick being in the top half, hold more water than lower 1st round picks?


No it is 2 1st rounders regardless of where they are. It is something you have to consider before you make a move like this.

It is like if someone said, "Bring in 5 canned goods and you get a free blender." If all you have is 5 cans of lobster bisque (expensive), you have to ask yourself if it is worth it. Whereas the guy with 5 small cans of tomato sauce might jump on that deal.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 10:00 AM
*EDIT* (nothing to see here)

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 10:04 AM
Rename the old thread to something like "Orlando Pace Day 1" and if people keep posting at this "pace" then tomorrow add "Orlando Pace Day 3".

Just a suggestion.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 10:13 AM
I wonder if maybe the 51 million dollar deal wasnt favorable to him. Maybe some clauses it that he didnt like.No doubt. He wanted a deal identical to Walter Jones. Walter Jones' $52M deal is heavily front loaded (I believe $27M is pretty much guaranteed). The Rams still have a big Cap Hit from Kurt Warner, and possibly another one coming for Kyle Turley. What Pace is doing IMO, is using the Texans to negotiate a deal with the Rams. It may or may not work. The Rams FO has a good poker face right now. They probably think Pace is actually bluffing, and using the Texans to do it.

ANOTHER ITEM ->> WHY NOT 2 1st Rounders for Pace?
Think about this. This year's #13 is not particularly high. If your team goes to the playoffs in 2005, the 2006 #1 pick might be somewhere in the mid-20s, almost in high 2nd Round territory.

Lucky
03-15-2005, 10:26 AM
...They probably think Pace is actually bluffing, and using the Texans to do it.
Pace knows for the 1st time what he's worth on the market. He won't sign for less. If the Rams don't trade him, he'll likely holdout through camp and the preseason. Maybe even into the season to try to force a trade. The best time to deal Pace is now, before the draft where the Rams can get some value for the '05 season. The Rams FO better wise up, this isn't a bluff.

Blake
03-15-2005, 10:27 AM
ANOTHER ITEM ->> WHY NOT 2 1st Rounders for Pace?
Think about this. This year's #13 is not particularly high. If your team goes to the playoffs in 2005, the 2006 #1 pick might be somewhere in the mid-20s, almost in high 2nd Round territory.

Would you give up #12 pick, Jimmy Kennedy, & #24 pick, Steven Jackson, for the rights to sign someone like Pace?

F-minus67
03-15-2005, 10:37 AM
I think the reason why he had trouble with the contract the rams proposed was that they tried to low ball him on the signning bonus.

Vinny
03-15-2005, 10:39 AM
Would you give up #12 pick, Jimmy Kennedy, & #24 pick, Steven Jackson, for the rights to sign someone like Pace?I would. Kennedy is not real special and a back close to Jackson is much easier to find than dominant LT's.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 10:39 AM
Would you give up #12 pick, Jimmy Kennedy, & #24 pick, Steven Jackson, for the rights to sign someone like Pace? :hmmm: Sure? :fib

Xman
03-15-2005, 10:49 AM
If the Rams refused to deal - could we trade down and only give up 2 low 1st round picks?

If so, we could work out a deal to swap our #13 for two low #1s - according to the NFL draft pick chart, the numbers are fair. Of course we migh have to add a low pick or two to make the deal work.

for instance:
we could deal #13 to Philly for #31 and #35 (a fair pick as shown by the chart numbers below) - then add a little to the #35 (like a 3rd or 4th) to swap it with NE at 32 or Pitt at 30.
- -according to the NFL Draft Pick Value Chart (on ESPN), that most GMs consult to valuate their draft picks (I think JJ made this a hot item a few years back) - The #13 pick is worth 1150 points; #31=600; #35=550.
#32 is worth 590 points; our 4th rounder (#108) is worth 78 points, so a swap of #35 and #108 is worth #30 or #32.

Or, could we trade #13 (1150) and 78 (200) to Dallas for #20 (850) and 42 (480). Then work with the teams with the few picks to see if thye would like to move up to 20 or down to 42 or 47.

Either way, we could trade our #13, and add another draf tpick or two (a 3rd at the most) to get 2 low 1st rounders.

Xman
03-15-2005, 10:50 AM
Draft Pick Value Chart
Round 1 Round 2 Round 3 Round 4 Round 5 Round 6 Round 7 Other
1 3000 33 580 65 265 97 112 129 43 161 28 193 15.2 225 2.9
2 2600 34 560 66 260 98 108 130 42 162 27.6 194 14.8 226 2.8
3 2200 35 550 67 255 99 104 131 41 163 27.2 195 14.4 227 2.7
4 1800 36 540 68 250 100 100 132 40 164 26.8 196 14 228 2.6
5 1700 37 530 69 245 101 96 133 39.5 165 26.4 197 13.6 229 2.5
6 1600 38 520 70 240 102 92 134 39 166 26 198 13.2 230 2.4
7 1500 39 510 71 235 103 88 135 38.5 167 25.6 199 12.8 231 2.3
8 1400 40 500 72 230 104 86 136 38 168 25.2 200 12.4 232 2.2
9 1350 41 490 73 225 105 84 137 37.5 169 24.8 201 12 233 2.1
10 1300 42 480 74 220 106 82 138 37 170 24.4 202 11.6 234 2
11 1250 43 470 75 215 107 80 139 36.5 171 24 203 11.2 235 1.9
12 1200 44 460 76 210 108 78 140 36 172 23.6 204 10.8 236 1.8
13 1150 45 450 77 205 109 76 141 35.5 173 23.2 205 10.4 237 1.7
14 1100 46 440 78 200 110 74 142 35 174 22.8 206 10 238 1.6
15 1050 47 430 79 195 111 72 143 34.5 175 22.4 207 9.6 239 1.5
16 1000 48 420 80 190 112 70 144 34 176 22 208 9.2 240 1.4
17 950 49 410 81 185 113 68 145 33.5 177 21.6 209 8.8 241 1.3
18 900 50 400 82 180 114 66 146 33 178 21.2 210 8.4 242 1.2
19 875 51 390 83 175 115 64 147 32.6 179 20.8 211 8 243 1.1
20 850 52 380 84 170 116 62 148 32.2 180 20.4 212 7.6 244 1
21 800 53 370 85 165 117 60 149 31.8 181 20 213 7.2 245 0.95
22 780 54 360 86 160 118 58 150 31.4 182 19.6 214 6.8 246 0.9
23 760 55 350 87 155 119 56 151 31 183 19.2 215 6.4 247 0.85
24 740 56 340 88 150 120 54 152 31.8 184 18.8 216 6 248 0.8
25 720 57 330 89 145 121 52 153 31.2 185 18.4 217 5.6 249 0.75
26 700 58 320 90 140 122 50 154 30.8 186 18 218 5.2 250 0.7
27 680 59 310 91 136 123 49 155 30.4 187 17.6 219 4.8 251 0.65
28 660 60 300 92 132 124 48 156 30 188 17.2 220 4.4 252 0.6
29 640 61 292 93 128 125 47 157 29.6 189 16.8 221 4 253 0.55
30 620 62 284 94 124 126 46 158 29.2 190 16.4 222 3.6 254 0.5
31 600 63 276 95 120 127 45 159 28.8 191 16 223 3.3 255 0.45
32 590 64 270 96 116 128 44 160 28.4 192 15.6 224 3 256 0.4

keyfro
03-15-2005, 10:55 AM
look bottom line is carr would finally have someone dependable to protect his blindside...giving him an actual chance to throw the ball and open up lanes for DD to run through...plus it would give indy a much harder time to sack carr with freeney out of the equation with pace on his side

dirty steve
03-15-2005, 10:59 AM
i wouldn't say freeney would be out of the question, but it would ease the concern a little.

SESupergenius
03-15-2005, 11:03 AM
3 more hours until decision time.

infantrycak
03-15-2005, 11:08 AM
look bottom line is carr would finally have someone dependable to protect his blindside...giving him an actual chance to throw the ball and open up lanes for DD to run through...plus it would give indy a much harder time to sack carr with freeney out of the equation with pace on his side

The guys on 610 am this morning were speculating that Pitts would look like a pro-bowler at LG if he wasn't worried about assisting weak players on each side of him.

Ses, isn't the deadline 3 pm Wednesday?

erickwsmom
03-15-2005, 11:16 AM
Yep, the deadline is Wednesday at 3 pm

Honoring Earl 34
03-15-2005, 11:16 AM
:thumbup Big trades in Houston football history , the Oilers got Leon Gray from New England . That trade really solidified the OL .

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 11:26 AM
For What Its Worth

Someone on Rams Talk is saying the Rams and Texans have agreed in principle on a Pace Trade, with the Rams getting the Texans #1 Picks in 2005 and 2006. It was reportedly announced on the NFL Network.

I Would Take This With a Grain of Salt. I will believe it when I read an actual News Report.

SESupergenius
03-15-2005, 11:27 AM
My bad, wishfull thinking.

wags
03-15-2005, 11:29 AM
plus it would give indy a much harder time to sack carr with freeney out of the equation with pace on his side

If I was Freeney I would just switch sides and wear out Todd Wade.

erickwsmom
03-15-2005, 11:35 AM
I'll take it with a grain. I've heard everything from it's a done deal to it's not going to happen. I wish they'd make SOME kind of announcement.

beerlover
03-15-2005, 11:37 AM
I would. Kennedy is not real special and a back close to Jackson is much easier to find than dominant LT's.

how about the two players the Texans aquired last season Dunta Robinson (#10) and Jason Babin (#27) would you trade both of those players for Orlando Pace? :cool:

Vinny
03-15-2005, 11:40 AM
how about the two players the Texans aquired last season Dunta Robinson (#10) and Jason Babin (#27) would you trade both of those players for Orlando Pace? :cool:We aren't looking at a top-10 pick in this weak draft, next year I anticipate we have a 20-something selection and Pace would be the best position player on our team as soon as he signed outside of perhaps AJ. Pace instantly makes us a playoff contender imo.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 11:44 AM
Someone on Rams Talk is saying the Rams and Texans have agreed in principle on a Pace Trade, with the Rams getting the Texans #1 Picks in 2005 and 2006. It was reportedly announced on the NFL Network.


They don't need to trade to get that deal. They could sign Pace now and give up those two picks (that is the compensation for signing a Franchise Player). If there is an actual trade, it will be for less than 2 1st rounders.

Youngstown Colt
03-15-2005, 11:44 AM
plus it would give indy a much harder time to sack carr with freeney out of the equation with pace on his sidethats what they thought with jon ogden too

beerlover
03-15-2005, 11:46 AM
We aren't looking at a top-10 pick in this weak draft, next year I anticipate we have a 20-something selection and Pace would be the best position player on our team as soon as he signed outside of perhaps AJ. Pace instantly makes us a playoff contender imo.

its close enough Vinny answear the question please. Dunta @ #10 is comparable to one of the CB's who will be there (#13) either Pac Man, Rogers or Miller, and Babin @ 27 is cutting a lot of slack that the Texans will be that good next year, but regradless as it relates to this draft that #27th spot would yield a player maybe even David Pollack.

so would you trade for Pace and give up Dunta Robinson & Jason Babin?

Boris
03-15-2005, 11:50 AM
If I was Freeney I would just switch sides and wear out Todd Wade.

True...... but Freeney would at least be in Carr's direct line of vision. Carr would just need to adjust his position in the pocket & it would help Wade & disrupt Freeney momentum.

Youngstown Colt
03-15-2005, 11:50 AM
True...... but Freeney would at least be in Carr's direct line of vision. Carr would just need to adjust his position in the pocket & it would help Wade & disrupt Freeney momentum.Didn't Mathis sack him 3 times from his non-blind side?

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 11:52 AM
I tend to agree. The biggest ouch in this deal is the #13 this year. If all goes according to plan then next years first round pick won't be the loss that many people think of it as.

Honestly I'd gladly give them the two #1's (2005 and 2006) for Pace, particularly if it means keeping Wand instead of sending him to the Rams. People talk about Wand going to waste here if we've got Pace but if Wand has the kind of ability that the Texans thought they saw in him I could see him pushing Wade eventually.

Blake
03-15-2005, 11:53 AM
Is Vinny under oath here? haha

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 11:53 AM
If I was Freeney I would just switch sides and wear out Todd Wade.

And if I had Pace at LT and knew I was going to throw the ball I'd line Seth Wand up at TE on the right of Wade and then Freeney would view the play from his backside.

rampete
03-15-2005, 11:54 AM
the rams FO are unwilling to part with pace because they know their 2005 season is shot without him anchoring the most pass-oriented offense in the league, even more than the colts...

they know, or are hoping, that the texans FO will never part with the 2 first rd. picks mandatory when an "offer sheet" is put on the table, hence the rams FO is not expecting to see any "offer sheet" from the texans...what they expect to see days before the draft is a trade proposal, hoping that the rams are fed up with pace or worried about any long holdout into the regular season...but if there's one thing the rams FO does know about pace is that he is not a dumb man. 8.5 million dollars is alot to even multimillionaries like pace. he will not miss any regular season games because it comes out of his own pocket...

the latest rumblings around rampark is that the FO will hold steady to demand of an "offer sheet" and reject any trade proposal. they expect pace to hold out all of training camp and preseason games but will eventually sign the franchise tender one or two weeks before the 1st regular season game. however, if the texans FO is dumb enough to put an "offer sheet" on the rams table and forego the two 1st rd picks then the rams are in deep do do...

and yes, pace is more important to the rams high octane pass offense than jimmy kennedy and steven jackson combined...

Vinny
03-15-2005, 11:55 AM
its close enough Vinny answear the question please. Dunta @ #10 is comparable to one of the CB's who will be there (#13) either Pac Man, Rogers or Miller, and Babin @ 27 is cutting a lot of slack that the Texans will be that good next year, but regradless as it relates to this draft that #27th spot would yield a player maybe even David Pollack.

so would you trade for Pace and give up Dunta Robinson & Jason Babin?You don't know that and we aren't looking to deal Dunta or Babin. You assume that we land that caliber of player in the draft but reality is that it is simply unknown. I'm not into fantasy make believe speculation trumping real world situations. The facts are simple, Pace is a Hall of Fame tackle who would make Pitts better, AJ better, Carr better and Dom Davis better. He allows us to give help to Wade on the right side and would make us an instant playoff contender. The guy we pick at 13 may or may not be a player. Next year we likely have a lower pick...and he may or may not be a player. We know exactly what Pace is, a dominant Hall of Fame LT. There has only been perhaps one linemen rated as high as him coming out of College since he was drafted.

Youngstown Colt
03-15-2005, 11:56 AM
And if I had Pace at LT and knew I was going to throw the ball I'd line Seth Wand up at TE on the right of Wade and then Freeney would view the play from his backside.If you want to get an all pro LT, why would you still wan't to use another LT to block Freeney? Why not keep what you have and use to LT's to block him?

nunusguy
03-15-2005, 11:59 AM
Honestly I'd gladly give them the two #1's (2005 and 2006) for Pace, particularly if it means keeping Wand instead of sending him to the Rams. People talk about Wand going to waste here if we've got Pace but if Wand has the kind of ability that the Texans thought they saw in him I could see him pushing Wade eventually.
Interesting Herv, so if you feel that strongly abount Wand (or atleast his
potential), why would you support this transaction to acquire OP, especially
if it would cost this & next years #1.

wags
03-15-2005, 12:00 PM
And if I had Pace at LT and knew I was going to throw the ball I'd line Seth Wand up at TE on the right of Wade and then Freeney would view the play from his backside.

True. Unfortunately, that would leave us with four receivers against seven defenders. I kinda liked how the Patriots handled him. They would have a back, tight end, or receiver chip Freeney and then go out for a short pass.

tacoman_j
03-15-2005, 12:02 PM
rams want 2 1st and won't happen according to Carlton Thompson on 590 the fan in STL

nunusguy
03-15-2005, 12:03 PM
rams want 2 1st and won't happen according to Carlton Thompson on 590 the fan in STL
Then I hope it doesn't happen - that price is too high !

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 12:04 PM
Obviously starting Orlando Pace at LT is an upgrade over starting Seth Wand at LT right? Does that mean there's no spot for Seth Wand on our team? Of course not. Who's going to back up Orlando Pace? Who could also get work at RT if necessary? The answer is Seth Wand.

Now in 2003 Wand got some work lining up as an extra TE when we needed help in pass protection. The team thought it was a good idea to get him into a game or two even if it was just in certain obvious passing situations which brings me to what I was talking about.

If Freeney is over on the right side running around Todd Wade and causing problems you give Wade help. If you have Seth Wand on your roster and find yourself in an obvious passing situation where you plan on keeping a TE in to help block (because Wade is getting run over rememeber) then make that TE Wand and make Freeney a non factor. If Freeney is running over anyone (be it right side or left) then we're probably going to give that side some help with a TE, that's all I'm saying.

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 12:11 PM
Interesting Herv, so if you feel that strongly abount Wand (or atleast his
potential), why would you support this transaction to acquire OP, especially
if it would cost this & next years #1.


Pace is a very special player. There aren't a lot of LT's out there that are in his league so yes obviously I think he's worth the pair of 1's he would cost.

I do feel strongly about Wand but I also remember that Wand was a surprise starter last season. At the beginning of the year we were all a bit shocked that Wand was supposedly ready to go. He'd been described as a project since the day he was selected so when they said he was our starting LT I was like "Whoa, that was fast". One minute I'm hearing that he lacks strength and needs time to acclimate to the speed of the NFL and it seems like the next minute I'm hearing them say "Ok, he's ready".

And he didn't do half bad last year all things considered. I don't however think that what we saw from him last year was as good as it's going to get. I think he needs more time and more work. I think he'd be an outstanding backup to both Pace and Wade, and I believe that if he's got what the Texans think in the way of upside he might very well be starting ahead of Wade someday.

So in short I take Pace over Wand as my starter but I don't let go of Wand if I can help it because I think he's got a role to play here and could also be something special down the road. Maybe not Orlando Pace special but then how many of them do you see out there anyway.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 12:14 PM
If you want to get an all pro LT, why would you still wan't to use another LT to block Freeney? Why not keep what you have and use to LT's to block him?

He is saying if Pace was out LT and Freeney moved over the the left (against the right side of the Texans line) to avoid him, then the Texans could counter by putting Wand at TE to assist Wade with Freeney.

beerlover
03-15-2005, 12:16 PM
Is Vinny under oath here? haha

your right DC :heh: Vinny is like the teflon man nothing sticks, on one hand he responds to a thread like this- Would you give up #12 pick, Jimmy Kennedy, & #24 pick, Steven Jackson, for the rights to sign someone like Pace?

then a response like this- I would. Kennedy is not real special and a back close to Jackson is much easier to find than dominant LT's.

now change the question but not the intenet- how about the two players the Texans aquired last season Dunta Robinson (#10) and Jason Babin (#27) would you trade both of those players for Orlando Pace? :cool:

and the response is- We aren't looking at a top-10 pick in this weak draft, next year I anticipate we have a 20-something selection and Pace would be the best position player on our team as soon as he signed outside of perhaps AJ. Pace instantly makes us a playoff contender imo.

then the indictment- its close enough Vinny answear the question please. Dunta @ #10 is comparable to one of the CB's who will be there (#13) either Pac Man, Rogers or Miller, and Babin @ 27 is cutting a lot of slack that the Texans will be that good next year, but regradless as it relates to this draft that #27th spot would yield a player maybe even David Pollack.

so would you trade for Pace and give up Dunta Robinson & Jason Babin?

the rebutal- You don't know that and we aren't looking to deal Dunta or Babin. You assume that we land that caliber of player in the draft but reality is that it is simply unknown. I'm not into fantasy make believe speculation trumping real world situations. The facts are simple, Pace is a Hall of Fame tackle who would make Pitts better, AJ better, Carr better and Dom Davis better. He allows us to give help to Wade on the right side and would make us an instant playoff contender. The guy we pick at 13 may or may not be a player. Next year we likely have a lower pick...and he may or may not be a player. We know exactly what Pace is, a dominant Hall of Fame LT. There has only been perhaps one linemen rated as high as him coming out of College since he was drafted.

I thought it was a straight forward question given the circumstances just a yes or no would do :)

Vinny
03-15-2005, 12:18 PM
hey, what can I say? I enjoy it.

Tulip
03-15-2005, 12:22 PM
I was really not feeling this yesterday, but I'm really warming up to the idea. I just hope Pace isn't just using us to play off the Rams with no intention of coming here.

Blake
03-15-2005, 12:26 PM
I love how these Ram fans come over here saying how dumb we are for trading for a fat lazy *** player, and then when it looks like the deal might go through, they talk about how he is the savior of their passing offense.

Txn_in_Oki
03-15-2005, 12:35 PM
I think this would be great if they signed him. I mean, this guy automatically locks on our line. Sure we lose out on a couple draft picks BUT a proven commodity vs 2 maybe's...

I know the claim is that we don't want to play in the FA market but come one, I think this is one they should definitly make the push for.

I know this added absolutly nothing to the conversation...

Oh well, just like to hear myself type. :listening

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 12:38 PM
I love how these Ram fans come over here saying how dumb we are for trading for a fat lazy *** player, and then when it looks like the deal might go through, they talk about how he is the savior of their passing offense.I most certainly don't think the Texans are dumb for pursuing Pace. But why do Texans fans think it is dumb to compensate the Rams with 2 1st Rounders? If he's that good - and he is - and he'll get you to the playoffs (no big deal for you guys?), then give them up.

Personally, I'd much rather have this year's 1st Rounder, a 3rd this year, and Wand, but its not up to me.

Youngstown Colt
03-15-2005, 12:45 PM
He is saying if Pace was out LT and Freeney moved over the the left (against the right side of the Texans line) to avoid him, then the Texans could counter by putting Wand at TE to assist Wade with Freeney.
Yeah, but why would Freeney go to the right side, he took ogden 1 on 1, and Ogden is a better LT. Freeney is just gonna do what he does.

Sco-tai
03-15-2005, 12:46 PM
First...as I understand it, we only have to give up both 1st rounders (2005 & 2006) if we trade for him AFTER he signs an offer sheet with ST. Louis. Doubt that will happen. I'm thinking that if the Texans get a deal done, it will be done before tomorrow at 3...give up our #13 and perhaps the 3rd we got for Henson (which we all know cost a 6th). With that scenario...I am not AS against it.
But I still say we should get Spencer, Brown or Baas for C in the draft this year. The sacks came up the middle for the most part. We'd probably need to trade down, pick up another second round pick, get the C in the 20's of the 1st...and then add D-line & DB youth in the 2nd & 3rd rounds.

Now let me go back with the rest of the peanuts. :woot

Lucky
03-15-2005, 12:46 PM
...according to Carlton Thompson on 590 the fan in STL
I heard that interview, also. He was voicing his opinion more than relaying information. It's not like Thompson has real good sources with the Texans. He didn't break the Pace story & didn't he state that JJ Moses was certain to be cut prior to the season opener? I'll wait for a credible source before believing what the Texans will or won't do.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 12:47 PM
I forgot Wand is from Missouri. I'm sure y'all would love to have him "come home".

Runner
03-15-2005, 12:47 PM
The guys on 610 am this morning were speculating that Pitts would look like a pro-bowler at LG if he wasn't worried about assisting weak players on each side of him.

Ses, isn't the deadline 3 pm Wednesday?


"The guys on 610" are so anti-Wand that they don't even realize the Texans scheme rarely had Pitts helping Wand. The Texans had Wand one on one while pass blocking almost all the time.

I guess if he was a frequent guest on their show he'd be much better on the field - in their opinion.

M@DD Mike
03-15-2005, 12:49 PM
I most certainly don't think the Texans are dumb for pursuing Pace. But why do Texans fans think it is dumb to compensate the Rams with 2 1st Rounders? If he's that good - and he is - and he'll get you to the playoffs (no big deal for you guys?), then give them up.

Personally, I'd much rather have this year's 1st Rounder, a 3rd this year, and Wand, but its not up to me.

You contradict yourself.

Tulip
03-15-2005, 12:49 PM
I most certainly don't think the Texans are dumb for pursuing Pace. But why do Texans fans think it is dumb to compensate the Rams with 2 1st Rounders? If he's that good - and he is - and he'll get you to the playoffs (no big deal for you guys?), then give them up.

Our team has a long term plan. Mortgaging the future for a chance right now may is one way to manage the salary cap/free agency era, but it's not the Texans' way.

the wonger need food
03-15-2005, 12:51 PM
Sorry if this was already posted...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/rams/story/78509700493127B686256FC5001F2056?OpenDocument

Vinny
03-15-2005, 12:51 PM
"The guys on 610" are so anti-Wand that they don't even realize the Texans scheme rarely had Pitts helping Wand. The Texans had Wand one on one while pass blocking almost all the time.I think Lance has a clue that Guards and Tackles help each other. His Dad (or someone close in his family) is a NFL O-Line coach.

Blake
03-15-2005, 12:54 PM
I most certainly don't think the Texans are dumb for pursuing Pace. But why do Texans fans think it is dumb to compensate the Rams with 2 1st Rounders? If he's that good - and he is - and he'll get you to the playoffs (no big deal for you guys?), then give them up.

Personally, I'd much rather have this year's 1st Rounder, a 3rd this year, and Wand, but its not up to me.

Dont get me wrong, I know Pace is an extraordinary player. But do you realize just how much 2 first round picks are?

I think a fair offer would be Wand, our #13 pick, and a 3rd round pick.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 12:54 PM
You contradict yourself.How did I contradict myself?

texasguy346
03-15-2005, 12:55 PM
The guys on 610 am this morning were speculating that Pitts would look like a pro-bowler at LG if he wasn't worried about assisting weak players on each side of him.



I think that's the best part of this deal. We'd pick up two Pro Bowlers for the price of one. Pace is and will be a Pro Bowler in his own right, but if Pitts is allowed to concentrate on his duties and responsibilities and not have to worry about helping Pace or McKinney he'd be a Pro Bowler as well. Even with Pace our OLine troubles are still there as long as McKinney is the starting C, but I think the Texans are going to try and address that position as well.

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 12:57 PM
How did I contradict myself?

From what I can see you did not.

texansfan1974
03-15-2005, 12:57 PM
if we land Pace not only will the passing game be better the running game would benifit as well. opposing defences will drop back for the pass which will open lanes for DD.


with pace
DD 1400 yard rushing season 21tds and 700 yard recieving 8tds
DC 4000 yard passing 31 tds
AJ 1200 yards recieving 14tds

M@DD Mike
03-15-2005, 12:59 PM
How did I contradict myself?

You said we are dumb for pursuing him but then you boast about his talent and say we should pay the price for him. If he's that good we can't be that dumb. It seems you're arguing both sides.

M@DD Mike
03-15-2005, 01:02 PM
You said we are dumb for pursuing him but then you boast about his talent and say we should pay the price for him. If he's that good we can't be that dumb. It seems you're arguing both sides.


My apologies I misread.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 01:03 PM
Team-Sports thinks we should pay two 1st rounders for Pace. He goes on to say he personally would prefer our 2005 1st and 3rd, as well as Seth Wand.

Clearly he thinks:
2006 1st < 2005 3rd + Seth Wand

He isn't contridicting himself. He is merely saying that we should pay AT LEAST the equivalent of two 1st rounders. He views his proposal with Wand as more valuable than that.

I hope we don't use two 1st rounders (or their equivalent) to get this done. I could live with trading a 1st and Wade or Wand, though, or a 1st and a 3rd.

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 01:03 PM
You said we are dumb for pursuing him but then you boast about his talent and say we should pay the price for him. If he's that good we can't be that dumb. It seems you're arguing both sides.


No, he specifically said that he did not think the Texans we're dumb for pursuing Pace.

DBLR1
03-15-2005, 01:05 PM
if we land Pace not only will the passing game be better the running game would benifit as well. opposing defences will drop back for the pass which will open lanes for DD.


with pace
DD 1400 yard rushing season 21tds and 700 yard recieving 8tds
DC 4000 yard passing 31 tds
AJ 1200 yards recieving 14tds
That gives me a :thumbup woody!!!! :whistle:

O.G.
03-15-2005, 01:07 PM
So when does anyone think we are going to get a decision on what St. Louis is going to do? I know tomorrow is the deadline but I wonder when we'll get an indication of something you know?

texansfan1974
03-15-2005, 01:09 PM
i wish we could hurry and get this done so i can go buy his new Texans jersey :woot

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 01:10 PM
I'm guessing we don't hear anything until tomorrow.

Runner
03-15-2005, 01:12 PM
I think Lance has a clue that Guards and Tackles help each other. His Dad (or someone close in his family) is a NFL O-Line coach.

And that makes them fair in their evaluations? Everybody has their opinion, and they seemed to make up their mind early on Wand.

Of course guards and tackles help each other, but post game they were always down on Wand. Do you really think he was the weakest player on the line every single game? Do other teams leave their LT one on one as much as the Texans? Why or why not? The Patriots used lots of schemes to give their LT help. I don't think we had the "team play" schemes in the OL down last year. That's where improvement is needed.

Even "experts" can be wrong, right?

Rant over. Thank you for your patience. :whew

ThaShark316
03-15-2005, 01:12 PM
What's the deadline for (3 P.M. wednesday)...I just wanna make sure I know what the hell I'm talking about....Is it this...


Rams | Negotiations with Pace at a Standstill - from www.KFFL.com
Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:41:45 -0800

Jim Thomas, of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, reports the St. Louis Rams have until Wednesday, March 16, to sign franchise OT Orlando Pace to a long-term deal before a four-month blackout period kicks in when the team cannot negotiate a long-term deal with him. Pace characterized negotiations as being "at a standstill" with St. Louis. The team has offered him a deal worth $51 million, including a $15 million signing bonus. However, the guaranteed money in the deal is less than what the Seattle Seahawks gave OT Walter Jones.


:confused:

Could someone tell me what exactly yhat has to do with us....preciate it.

texasguy346
03-15-2005, 01:13 PM
i wish we could hurry and get this done so i can go buy his new Texans jersey :woot

Didn't Pace wear #76 in StLouis? Wonder if McKinney would be willing to give it up for him? Anyone know what number he wore at Ohio St? Not sure if the jersey number is all that important to him or not. :hmmm:

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 01:13 PM
Maybe cause Pace feels like hes the top OT in the league, and should be paid the top,

O.G.
03-15-2005, 01:13 PM
i wish we could hurry and get this done so i can go buy his new Texans jersey :woot

My point exactly!

nunusguy
03-15-2005, 01:15 PM
"The guys on 610" are so anti-Wand that they don't even realize the Texans scheme rarely had Pitts helping Wand. The Texans had Wand one on one while pass blocking almost all the time.

The 610 radio guys commenting on the nuances of OL play is about as
appropriate as Terrel Owens commenting on Rocket Science.
On the other hand, we've got some guys on this Board who know something
on the subject, and I actually think the 610 guys audit our Board on a regular
basis because of some of the issues and question they raise.
Hey, don't get me wrong though, I listen to 610 and often find them entertaining, if not informative.

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 01:15 PM
Iv'e seen Freeney get manhandled by OT that aren't even probowlers. It's just Freeney will have his days where nobody will be able to block him.

wags
03-15-2005, 01:16 PM
Didn't Pace wear #76 in StLouis? Wonder if McKinney would be willing to give it up for him? Anyone know what number he wore at Ohio St? Not sure if the jersey number is all that important to him or not. :hmmm:

Pace would wear 00, because that's how many sacks he'd be giving up.

texasguy346
03-15-2005, 01:18 PM
Pace would wear 00, because that's how many sacks he'd be giving up.

I like that idea. Now all we have to do is find an XXXXXXXXL helmet to fit that big melon of his.

Vinny
03-15-2005, 01:18 PM
And that makes them fair in their evaluations? Everybody has their opinion, and they seemed to make up their mind early on Wand.I exchange e-mails with Lance all the time (ask him if you want) and I find his exchanges with me very thoughtful. Perhaps he has a different opinion of Wand as you or I do? Does that make him a moron? I'd be real blunt and brutal if I thought he was a tool. I'm fairly outspoken.Even "experts" can be wrong, right?Sure they can, but he just gives his opinion like we do here. He just gives his over the air.

Lucky
03-15-2005, 01:21 PM
Didn't Pace wear #76 in StLouis? Wonder if McKinney would be willing to give it up for him? Anyone know what number he wore at Ohio St?
That's enough reason to dump McKinney for me. :) Pace wore #75 at OSU.

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 01:21 PM
Pace might not be giving up many sacks, but what about the rest of the oline. heh

UberDork
03-15-2005, 01:22 PM
I don't know if this is possible or has been discussed, but couldn't the Texans wait until after the draft to get pace? Get him to sign an offer sheet if the Rams won't budge on the trade...In that case, they either sign him or they would get our firsts in 2006 and 2007 which we are all hopeful will be in the high twenties.

It would be beautiful irony if Barron or someone the Rams would get were at 13 and turns out to be a stud and St. Louis misses on him because they want 2 firsts.

TexanBacker93
03-15-2005, 01:24 PM
If something doesn't happen before tomorrow at 3pm I doubt it will at all. At least as far as the Texans are concerned. It doesn't look like the Texans are willing to surrender 2 1st round picks. If they signed Pace to an offer sheet and the Rams don't match that is the price the Texans would pay. If the Rams don't sign him to a long term deal by the deadline they can't negotiate with him until later in the year. I can't recall the exact time frame.

I would guess that right now the Texans and Rams are in a standoff. The Rams are asking for the 2 1s and the Texans are saying no. But, since I'm no longer allowed to listen in on their conversations I don't know for sure.

What I do know is..the Texans need to upgrade their line. The best tackle in the draft is Alex Barron. He should be available when the Texans pick. He'd get a lot of money, but not as much as Pace would command. It's impossible to project, but I would doubt he will ever be as good as Pace. He isn't a Gallery or Gross and neither of them have been all-world yet. They are still young and have plenty of time, though. The Texans want to take that next step now. If they can swap the 3rd round pick from Dallas and the 1st round this year plus even a midround pick next season I say it's a good deal. If they would have taken Barron you are in essence getting Pace for Barron, Henson, and maybe another pick. For an All-Pro left tackle it's worth it. They'd still have a 2nd and a 3rd rounder to pick up a Center and maybe a DT or a WR.

infantrycak
03-15-2005, 01:29 PM
Iv'e seen Freeney get manhandled by OT that aren't even probowlers. It's just Freeney will have his days where nobody will be able to block him.

It's funny how guys will have good and bad days. Remember Pitts coming off giving up 15.50 sacks in 2002 to take on if memory serves the league leading sacker Jason Taylor with 18.5 sacks and not giving up a sack all day?

Some days the bear eats you--somedays you eat the bear.

TexanBacker93
03-15-2005, 01:30 PM
I don't know if this is possible or has been discussed, but couldn't the Texans wait until after the draft to get pace? Get him to sign an offer sheet if the Rams won't budge on the trade...In that case, they either sign him or they would get our firsts in 2006 and 2007 which we are all hopeful will be in the high twenties.

It would be beautiful irony if Barron or someone the Rams would get were at 13 and turns out to be a stud and St. Louis misses on him because they want 2 firsts.

That option would be nice for the Texans, but if they bring in Pace I don't know if they would have enough cap space to also sign the #13 overall pick. Maybe they would look at trading down.

Runner
03-15-2005, 01:35 PM
I exchange e-mails with Lance all the time (ask him if you want) and I find his exchanges with me very thoughtful. Perhaps he has a different opinion of Wand as you or I do? Does that make him a moron? I'd be real blunt and brutal if I thought he was a tool. I'm fairly outspoken.Sure they can, but he just gives his opinion like we do here. He just gives his over the air.

I didn't say they were morons. I said they were anti-Wand. I don't think you can argue that they aren't very high on him.

You're right, we could argue if their's is a good evaluation though. That's what this board does far better than talk radio.

The reason I first came on this board was to see if everyone thought like they did on the post game show. As a poster said a little while ago, this board has many very thoughtful posters. I think you get much more balanced discussion here. You also get to hear more than one sided rhetoric, if you care to read differing opinions.

The balance or lack there of is an artifact of just about all talk radio. I know I'd win lots of arguments if I had an off button for the opponent.

Peace.

JustBonee
03-15-2005, 01:35 PM
That's enough reason to dump McKinney for me. :) Pace wore #75 at OSU.
Anyone, besides me, watch him play at Ohio State?
The Pancake Man ... :thumbup

wags
03-15-2005, 01:36 PM
I like that idea. Now all we have to do is find an XXXXXXXXL helmet to fit that big melon of his.

That thing has it's own weather system.

Stole that from Axe murderer. :D

Runner
03-15-2005, 01:38 PM
Anyone, besides me, watch him play at Ohio State?
The Pancake Man ... :thumbup

Yep. I was hoping against all common sense that the Heisman voters would think outside the box and give the award to the most dominant player in college footbal regardless of position. They didn't.

Vinny
03-15-2005, 01:40 PM
I didn't say they were morons. I said they were anti-Wand. I don't think you can argue that they aren't very high on him.Ok, morons was too strong. I am not as high on Dom Davis as most of you guys are. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about because I am not in the larger opinion segment. We all have a different POV. You're right, we could argue if there's is a good evaluation though. That's what this board does far better than talk radio.

The reason I first came on this board was to see if everyone thought like they did on the post game show. As a poster said a little while ago, this board has many very thoughtful posters. I think you get much more balanced discussion here. You also get to hear more than one sided rhetoric, if you care to read differing opinions.Every form of media has its limitations, including message boards. You give your thoughts, I give mine. It's all good.

nunusguy
03-15-2005, 01:52 PM
Yep. I was hoping against all common sense that the Heisman voters would think outside the box and give the award to the most dominant player in college footbal regardless of position. They didn't.
Perhaps they overreacted the next year and gave it to a DB (another very non traditional position for such an award) who was clearly less derserving than the QB who finished right behind him ?

Dunta_23
03-15-2005, 02:35 PM
Im not saying that this trade is a bad idea, because anytime u have a chance to bring in a top LT its key, but a lot of people on this board seem to think that draft pics in the 20's are bad picks....and that u can just give them away...Just look at the Rams last year, they got the best RB in the draft @ # 24 i believe....lots of amazing players come out of the late 1st round...and way deeper...I still think its a good trade but 200 and 2007 1st round picks are going to become great players.

ThaShark316
03-15-2005, 02:41 PM
Im not saying that this trade is a bad idea, because anytime u have a chance to bring in a top LT its key, but a lot of people on this board seem to think that draft pics in the 20's are bad picks....and that u can just give them away...Just look at the Rams last year, they got the best RB in the draft @ # 24 i believe....lots of amazing players come out of the late 1st round...and way deeper...I still think its a good trade but 200 and 2007 1st round picks are going to become great players.


The Rams got Julius Jones? :shocked when did that happen? :heh

Trading two 1st rounders... :thumbdown

Dunta_23
03-15-2005, 02:43 PM
:hmmm: some ppl say Julius Jones may be better, I still think Steven Jackson is ;)

jacquescas
03-15-2005, 02:55 PM
expect him to get around a 7 year deal worth around 50 million with at least 13 million in signning bonus money or gaurunteed money.

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 02:59 PM
Absolutely first round picks are important stuff but "1st round picks are going to become great players" is a bit sweeping if you ask me. I got a list about a mile long of first round picks that didn't do squat. We've drafted well but it's impossible to be 100% in the draft, even in the first round. Hell, it's impossible to be 100% even in the top ten. Draft picks are chances to get a great player. Here in the Pace deal we're looking at giving up two chances for one sure thing.

That's what it comes down to for me. A sure thing, can't miss player who can instantly change the Texans offense for the better. You can't draft a single person this year who could come into our team and have the kind of effect Pace can have.

Lastly I ask anyone who's got real reservations about this deal to consider one thing. Do you like David Carr? Do you think he's going to be a good'un? Are you sick of seeing him running for his life and climbing up off the ground with pieces of turf sticking out of his facemask? If all that's true then what other move could the Texans possibly make that would be better than grabbing Pace from the Rams?

The offense appears mostly set. No more rookie starters and the only thing left causing a problem is the offensive line. Hello? Orlando Pace anybody? The defense is mostly set too. Last year we added 3 rookies starters and they're going to get better. The holes aren't like they were in 2002-2003. We've got some depth and we've got some players. Pace isn't going to gut this team like he might have done a few years ago. He's not going to prevent this team from growing and he's not asking (apparently) for some amazing stupid god-awful amount of money like his (former) agents were talking three years ago. He ain't cheap of course but he's not going to destroy our ability to manage the cap single handedly.

Vinny
03-15-2005, 03:05 PM
Good post Herv. Here is a nice piece by Len Pastabelly (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2012773) that relates to your argument that first round draft picks are not always going to pan out.

F-minus67
03-15-2005, 03:11 PM
Pace is one of the best LTs in the league, he has won a super bowl and played in five pro bowls. Now look at who we are playing on the o line, is there anyone on our line with those kind of credentals? Looking at the draft class for this year and next year, besides D'Brickshaw Fergason(maybe) there are no LTs who are in the same class as him. But the way that we are trying to make a playoff push, Fergason will be gone. If we have a chance to get a guy like this who can play at a pro bowl level for the next 5-6 years, we should jump on the opportunity like it was the last chopper out of Nam.

TEXANS84
03-15-2005, 03:12 PM
I found it interesting that the Pace rumors have started a 5 page thread over at the Jaguars boards:

Jags Pace Topic (http://www.jaguars.com/mb/default.aspx?f=6&p=1&m=355126)

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 03:20 PM
I found it interesting that the Pace rumors have started a 5 page thread over at the Jaguars boards:

Jags Pace Topic (http://www.jaguars.com/mb/default.aspx?f=6&p=1&m=355126)


And this of course means pretty much nothing (as does our own 400+ post thread(s) on this subject) but it's a fun read. How good is Pace? He's so good that there are knee jerks over there talking about "3rd place for the Jags after this move"

Give the Rams the two #1's, get the big guy into camp on time, and lets go smack some people around.

Xman
03-15-2005, 03:22 PM
I will be very happy if we can add Pace for #13, Wand, Sharper and maybe a 3rd.

Our offense has 2 major weak spots and a couple of questionable spots.
Our major weak spots on offense are LOT and 2nd WR; our iffy areas are TE (waiting on Joppru who I think will bust) and OG (I think Pace makes these guys better by being here).

So, if we add Pace - then can add a quality WR (in the 2nd rd or FA? - McClaine speculated we were going to take a WR with our 1st pick, so we probably look at that with our 2nd pick now), our offense will be close to complete machine. I would love that - it would be nice to know that when you are down by 4 with 2 minutes to go, you can win if you get the ball back - teams like Indy/NE/Philly/GB KNOW they can win if they get the ball back - teams like AZ/NO/TB/Balt know they are in trouble if it comes down to that.
I would like to be in the category where we know we can score when we have to.

True, our D still needs work. But, we are still a young team and hopefully we can round that out next year.

So, please give up #13, Wand, Sharper, etc. to make the deal - it is the only way we are going to get a stud OLT - the rest (WR/OLB/DE) we can get later or next year if we have to.

F-minus67
03-15-2005, 03:23 PM
The way that the Jaqs fan are talking, you would think that Pace already had a press confrence and held up a Texans jersey. Not to mention that they are freaking out. :thumbup

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 03:24 PM
The Brown took Tim Couch (#1), Courtney Brown (#1), Gerard Warren (#3), and William Green (#16) all in the first round. Not one of them panned out. The draft is truly a lottery, some win and some lose.

rittenhouserobz
03-15-2005, 03:27 PM
Pace is a free agent next year if a deal is not struck. If the Texans are smart for lining up a deal now. This way they can meet and have terms worked out. If Pace becomes a free agent, then at least he is familar with the names and faces of the Texans organization and he has taken the tour.

BuffSoldier
03-15-2005, 03:36 PM
Pace is a free agent next year if a deal is not struck. If the Texans are smart for lining up a deal now. This way they can meet and have terms worked out. If Pace becomes a free agent, then at least he is familar with the names and faces of the Texans organization and he has taken the tour.

The Rams arent stupid,they will franchise tag him, just like they have done for the past couple of years. Hes franchised now. If he plays for the Rams this year, he is going to have a long term contract with them.

DRIFTAWAY
03-15-2005, 03:42 PM
I really hope this deal doesn't happen. Pace is very old now, and we have some nice defensive linemen in our division(freeney,Jacksonville's big 2) and if Pace ever needs help with those that will mess up our whole system. This team has built itself on youth so far, and i want us to keep that going. Pace can be a caner at some-times, and now at the near end of his career, already having won a championship, he's just worried about gettin set for life financially. We can do many good things with that #13 pick, And still not get hog-tied in terms of cap space.

Dunta_23
03-15-2005, 03:47 PM
http://store.houstontexans.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1772606&sName=PACE&sNumber=75&step=setCustomJersey&cp=716711

How does this look?

DRIFTAWAY
03-15-2005, 03:54 PM
looks horrible

TEXANS84
03-15-2005, 03:55 PM
Error..Ingnore

dalemurphy
03-15-2005, 04:00 PM
I really hope this deal doesn't happen. Pace is very old now, and we have some nice defensive linemen in our division(freeney,Jacksonville's big 2) and if Pace ever needs help with those that will mess up our whole system. This team has built itself on youth so far, and i want us to keep that going. Pace can be a caner at some-times, and now at the near end of his career, already having won a championship, he's just worried about gettin set for life financially. We can do many good things with that #13 pick, And still not get hog-tied in terms of cap space.


Dang it! I'm on death's doorstep then. I'm 31 years old!!

BuffSoldier
03-15-2005, 04:02 PM
http://store.houstontexans.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1772606&sName=PACE&sNumber=75&step=setCustomJersey&cp=716711

How does this look?

It looks Pretty good to me. :thumbup

SESupergenius
03-15-2005, 04:02 PM
Carlton Thompson, of the Houston Chronicle, reports St. Louis Rams OT Orlando Pace sounded optimistic he would be able to reach a deal with the Houston Texans, who he visited with Monday, March 14. "The talks are going pretty good with Houston," Pace said. "Nothing has been written down or anything like that, but the fact I'm here and made the trip speaks enough for itself and their willingness to get it done. I don't think it will be a problem on that end. Really, it's up to St. Louis at this point." As reported, the Rams have until Wednesday, March 16, to sign their franchise player to a long-term deal before a four-month blackout period kicks in when the team cannot negotiate a long-term deal with him. "We'll see here in the next 24 hours or so... If we could make it happen, I'd love to be here (in Houston)," Pace said.

Negative Jesus
03-15-2005, 04:08 PM
Dang it! I'm on death's doorstep then. I'm 31 years old!!
I guess I'll be next I'm 29 ! :heh:

I just hope this really goes through ............. I hate getting all hyped up for a big dissapointment . That seems to be the story when it comes to H-Town sports though . :thumbdown

O.G.
03-15-2005, 04:14 PM
I really hope this deal doesn't happen. Pace is very old now, and we have some nice defensive linemen in our division(freeney,Jacksonville's big 2) and if Pace ever needs help with those that will mess up our whole system. This team has built itself on youth so far, and i want us to keep that going. Pace can be a caner at some-times, and now at the near end of his career, already having won a championship, he's just worried about gettin set for life financially. We can do many good things with that #13 pick, And still not get hog-tied in terms of cap space.

Maybe I'm tripping, but how is he old? He's 29 and won't be 30 until November. Born November 4, 1975, Sandusky, OH. Everyone always say your prime isn't until 28 or 29.

HomeBred_Texan
03-15-2005, 04:15 PM
I know everyone is talking about Pace, but in my opinion only, he is definately not worth the 13th pick in the draft. Sorry, that is my opinion. With the 13th pick, we can pick up another player who will contribute immediately.

We need offense, not defense right now. Score 40 points, and let them score 38. I want an offense for my money, not defense. Who wants to see a game's final score of 7-3? Certainly not me....

BTW, this is not my first rodeo here, I just couldn't remember my last user name and password, or even e-mail address, LOL.

Blast away, I can handle it. Longtime Texan, never a Dallas Fan.......

GotMojo80
03-15-2005, 04:16 PM
wow, how far have we fallen. u know Pace is a top 3 LT right? a offensive player.

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 04:17 PM
I guess I'll be next I'm 29 ! :heh:

I just hope this really goes through ............. I hate getting all hyped up for a big dissapointment . That seems to be the story when it comes to H-Town sports though . :thumbdown


And I am typing this to you all from BEYOND THE GRAVE! since I'm 39.

Pace isn't too old, Driftaway just doesn't want the Texans to sign him which is of course his right. I disagree and hope they reel him in.

O.G.
03-15-2005, 04:19 PM
And I am typing this to you all from BEYOND THE GRAVE! since I'm 39.

Pace isn't too old, Driftaway just doesn't want the Texans to sign him which is of course his right. I disagree and hope they reel him in.

I second that!

wags
03-15-2005, 04:19 PM
We need offense, not defense right now.

Um yea. That's why we're going after Pace.

Nawzer
03-15-2005, 04:19 PM
I better hope we get Orlando Pace otherwise this thread will have gone to waste!!!

Can we expect something to happen between today and tomorrow? I don't want this thing to linger out like it did with the T-Mac trade. If we get him it's terrific, but if we don't we still have some issues to deal with on our team. Who's going to replace Foreman? Who's going to be our no.2 receiver? etc..

ramsman34
03-15-2005, 04:20 PM
Pace is on KFNS in St. louis right now stating that he and the RAMS are close to signing a long term deal.

You guys might have got used as leverage.

Such is life in the big money league known as the NFL.

I'm torn, while I'm glad to have him at LT I also liked the thought of more darft picks to build for the future.

HomeBred_Texan
03-15-2005, 04:21 PM
Sure I do. We need him for sure. But will he hold on and be worth a 13th pick over all. My money says we will not get him.

SESupergenius
03-15-2005, 04:22 PM
He might sign it to get traded, but then again that's just me.

ramsman34
03-15-2005, 04:23 PM
caught the last 5 mins of the interview, but Slaten and Claiborne are talking like it is a done deal for our side.

They were even ribbing him about how he will have to be in Macomb and mini camps for the entire duration, etc.

They even asked each other "Do you think Houston ever was going to sign him?"

The interview will be replayed on KFNS in the 5 o'clock hour..

Pace - "I think everyone is going to be happy in St. Louis"


KFNS - "I think the happiest guy today has to be Marc Bulger"

Quotes from the live interview in St. Louis

GotMojo80
03-15-2005, 04:27 PM
Quotes from the live interview in St. Louis
how could this be because he was just on 610 like 10 minutes ago saying it was a sure thing with the Texans..o wait jk.. So you c, not discrediting you but id like to see reliable source before i know for sure.

hound
03-15-2005, 04:27 PM
I hope we pass on Pace... or that the deal falls through. I'm afraid the Texans will make the deal at any price, even 2 first round picks.

There are only 6 NFL that gave up more sacks than Houston. The Rams were one of them with 50 to our 49. They gave up 50 with Pace because he is only one part of the line. The rest of the line has holes in it, just as the Texans line has holes in it. Rather than selling the farm to get one player I'd rather beef up the line with several new players. No matter how good Pace is when the defense is pouring through our center and right guard Carr will still be getting sacked too many time and will still be running for his life.

And Pace will just cost too much. If we sell the farm to pay for Pace... what do we pay for Carr when it's time to renew his contract... and the same for DD... and then AJ.

No, keep the draft picks and the millions of dollars and spread some money around a little more evenly on a new center and guard in the draft.

Vinny
03-15-2005, 04:28 PM
http://forums.stltoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=241706

YodAa
03-15-2005, 04:30 PM
I know everyone is talking about Pace, but in my opinion only, he is definately not worth the 13th pick in the draft. Sorry, that is my opinion. With the 13th pick, we can pick up another player who will contribute immediately.
We need offense, not defense right now. Score 40 points, and let them score 38. I want an offense for my money, not defense. Who wants to see a game's final score of 7-3? Certainly not me....
1st) Orlando Pace OL as in OFFENSIVE!!!!!!!! lineman

2nd) and I don't think you ever saw the 2000 Ravens, 1985 Bears, or 2002 Buccanears
all SB champions and all due to defense. So Defense does win.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 04:30 PM
Bernie Miklasz (St. Louis Post-Dispatch Sports Editor) wrote:
Mike Claiborne (KFNS) had a lengthy discussion with Orlando Pace -- last night and then again today.

Claiborne believes the Rams and Pace are very close to reaching a deal.

That was the indication he got from Orlando.

And Pace confirmed on KFNS just now, saying, "we're very close."

The Rams sweetened their offer today (Tuesday)

Pace just finished up an interview on KFNS.

Pace just said "we're close. I'm about to get on a plane right now (to Orlando) and hopefully by the time I land, we'll have a deal."

He said turning point was the Houston trip...it brought about a new offer from the Rams...structure of the deal (apparently) was tweaked by the Rams...Pace said that means more to him then the end number in the contract -- which I take to mean that the Rams moved more of the money to the front part of the deal.

"It was important to me to get money up front," Pace told KFNS. "The way the deal was structured was important to me." Pace joked that he's lost his way to Macomb...said it's important for him to be in camp, "get back on track, and do the things I do well...I miss the camp to some extent, just being around the fellows."

As for criticism he's received in STL, Pace said, "It was tough, but as far as the fans go, they want a winner. I can understand that, but a lot of people don't understand the business part. You have to take care of the business befdore you get on the field."

Great job by Claibs.

--B

ramsman34
03-15-2005, 04:32 PM
Here's the link to the radio sation that did the interview, they will replay it at 5pm central time.

I guess a trade could still be in the works, but I doubt.

They will replay the interview at the 5:00 hour.

Listen live here --->> http://www.kfns.com/Multimedia/ListenLive.aspx
_________________

ramsman34
03-15-2005, 04:34 PM
Here's some more info form the RAMS site:

Mike Claiborne (KFNS) had a lengthy discussion with Orlando Pace -- last night and then again today.

Claiborne believes the Rams and Pace are very close to reaching a deal.

That was the indication he got from Orlando.

And Pace confirmed on KFNS just now, saying, "we're very close."

The Rams sweetened their offer today (Tuesday)

Pace just finished up an interview on KFNS.

Pace just said "we're close. I'm about to get on a plane right now (to Orlando) and hopefully by the time I land, we'll have a deal."

He said turning point was the Houston trip...it brought about a new offer from the Rams...structure of the deal (apparently) was tweaked by the Rams...Pace said that means more to him then the end number in the contract -- which I take to mean that the Rams moved more of the money to the front part of the deal.

"It was important to me to get money up front," Pace told KFNS. "The way the deal was structured was important to me." Pace joked that he's lost his way to Macomb...said it's important for him to be in camp, "get back on track, and do the things I do well...I miss the camp to some extent, just being around the fellows."

As for criticism he's received in STL, Pace said, "It was tough, but as far as the fans go, they want a winner. I can understand that, but a lot of people don't understand the business part. You have to take care of the business befdore you get on the field."

Great job by Claibs.

RM34 - Now that this is done I probably won't be posting here for obvious reasons. Let me say this: You guys are very knowledgable and passionate fans. This board does not seem to have the problem we have on our board, darn near every thread turns into a Warner debate, it's pathetic. There are so many "trolls" on our board it can be difficult to actually talk football. Appreciate what you have here and I hope you never get infected by know-nothing trolls.

Coach LAG - Go long, and we'll fake it to you. :thumbup

wags
03-15-2005, 04:34 PM
Carr: Et tu Orlando.

jacquescas
03-15-2005, 04:34 PM
we were leverage. oh well back to the draft with all our picks.

Marcus
03-15-2005, 04:35 PM
And I am typing this to you all from BEYOND THE GRAVE! since I'm 39.

So how long have you been 39? I'm 39 too! And I've been 39 for something like 12 years now. :rolleyes:

Hervoyel
03-15-2005, 04:35 PM
http://forums.stltoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=241706

Well, that was the likely outcome all along so nothing's really changed aside from the fact that the Texans have seemingly demonstrated a desire to fix the offensive line and they're clearly serious about it.

The Seth Wand era apparently continues. Seth, if you're out there you better work your tail off this year and get better.

TEXANS84
03-15-2005, 04:36 PM
we were leverage. oh well back to the draft with all our picks.

And the sticky's on Pace will fall to never never land, and up pops all the Alex Barron threads.

jacquescas
03-15-2005, 04:38 PM
hey the good news is that we are serious about making improvements, and we jacked the price up on the Rams so they have less money.

Blake
03-15-2005, 04:38 PM
Carr: Et tu Orlando.
Classic.



Its true, when you want something and cant have it, you want it even more.

Nawzer
03-15-2005, 04:39 PM
Atleast it didn't drag on. It's a bummer that we couldn't land OP, but we still have a good up and coming team. And don't we play the Rams this year? If so, we'll just beat them to get our revenge!!!

bubbajaxonbrown
03-15-2005, 04:39 PM
This is disappointing. But I hope the Texans don't match that offer. It would kill our cap and we would have to just cut him when it's time to resign Carr.

On a side note: Anyone who thinks the Rams want Sharper is delirious. They just signed Coakley and Claiborne and are in love with Robert Thomas (who is only 24 and been starting for the past 2 seasons). So please...no more Pace for Sharper + 1st round pick talk.

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 04:40 PM
If Texans wanted a OT this bad I bet we get one in the first round... Barron threads is right

bubbajaxonbrown
03-15-2005, 04:42 PM
If Texans wanted a OT this bad I bet we get one in the first round... Barron threads is right
Barron is the type of OT I'd want.

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 04:43 PM
This is disappointing. But I hope the Texans don't match that offer. It would kill our cap and we would have to just cut him when it's time to resign Carr.

On a side note: Anyone who thinks the Rams want Sharper is delirious. They just signed Coakley and Claiborne and are in love with Robert Thomas (who is only 24 and been starting for the past 2 seasons). So please...no more Pace for Sharper + 1st round pick talk.


True, I dont know why anyone would put Sharper in the picture for Pace. Their already talking about possibly bringing Pisa back to the LB spot, but are probably gonna stick him at SS like they planned. I guess it depends how good Coakley and Claiborne prove in training camp, if they prove good Pisa will stay at SS. I don't see where Jamie would fit in this picture any where, as like you said, Ram's love their boy Robert Thomas. Just a sign of fans who like to throw out things they don't know what their talking about.

texasguy346
03-15-2005, 04:45 PM
This smiley sums up the thread.

:slap:

bubbajaxonbrown
03-15-2005, 04:46 PM
True, I dont know why anyone would put Sharper in the picture for Pace. Their already talking about possibly bringing Pisa back to the LB spot, but are probably gonna stick him at SS like they planned. I guess it depends how good Coakley and Claiborne prove in training camp, if they prove good Pisa will stay at SS. I don't see where Jamie would fit in this picture any where, as like you said, Ram's love their boy Robert Thomas. Just a sign of fans who like to throw out things they don't know what their talking about.
The talk of Sharper involvement has slowed but I wanted to put a stop to it before it resurfaced and I'd have to read it and shake my head again. Cool response though, I did not know Pisa had a chance to move into the front 7.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 04:48 PM
We were used. Oh well, it happens.

dirty steve
03-15-2005, 04:48 PM
it cracks me up how people say that pace is at the end of his career just because he has or is about to turn 30. this was a calculated move where you were getting a proven commodity.

i least we weren't beltran-ed this time.

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 04:50 PM
The talk of Sharper involvement has slowed but I wanted to put a stop to it before it resurfaced and I'd have to read it and shake my head again. Cool response though, I did not know Pisa had a chance to move into the front 7.

I saw it on kffl.com. Martz was talking about possibly putting him back, but he said they'll figure it out during training camp, and that he likes him at SS cause he feels he'd be a bigger playmaker.

Tailgate
03-15-2005, 04:50 PM
Sounds like atleast we have some resolution after 400 posts! Time to move on and get back into draft mode.

Maybe sign some more DL depth, then think WR, OL, DL, CB in the draft.

Texan Gal 312
03-15-2005, 04:51 PM
I can't say I am overly disappointed. The price was too high even if he was a free agent signing (we had to give nothing).

Too many of the sacks last year came from rushes straight up the middle and then from Carr's inability to step up in the pocket.
Maybe it is McKinney, but I think fixing Weigerts position drastically improves the line. When Weigert was out his backups were ABUSED.

Wand and Pitts run blocking was adequate and should be substantially improved with a year under their belts.

Spend the money on defense. Defense wins Championships. Reference the colts and all the money and 1st round picks they have spent on offense. They can roll it up in the regular season but fall on their face in the playoffs.

bubbajaxonbrown
03-15-2005, 04:54 PM
I honestly did not want to pay Pace $50+ million but 30 is not old for an OL. Marco Rivera was older when he started his Pro-Bowl visits. Does anyone remember Bruce Matthews. He was old and still great. If there is a position other than K/P that a player can play into his late 30s, it's the O-Line. If he is that slow now, we could have even moved him in to G and then moved Pitts out to T.

I might be overthinking this though.

Tailgate
03-15-2005, 04:55 PM
I can't say I am overly disappointed. The price was too high even if he was a free agent signing (we had to give nothing).

Too many of the sacks last year came from rushes straight up the middle and then from Carr's inability to step up in the pocket.
Maybe it is McKinney, but I think fixing Weigerts position drastically improves the line. When Weigert was out his backups were ABUSED.

Wand and Pitts run blocking was adequate and should be substantially improved with a year under their belts.

Spend the money on defense. Defense wins Championships. Reference the colts and all the money and 1st round picks they have spent on offense. They can roll it up in the regular season but fall on their face in the playoffs.

If this line (which we are now stuck with again) continues to suck at pass protect.... and Carr continues to run for his life. I think you might rethink this Pace situation next year.

Texan Gal 312
03-15-2005, 04:59 PM
The line Pace played on gave up more sacks than our line. Pace alone does not fix the problem.

Vinny
03-15-2005, 05:00 PM
They also had more than 100 more passing attempts while giving up one more sack than us. 471 to 580

Tailgate
03-15-2005, 05:03 PM
Thats 9.6 attempts per sack for the Texans...

and 11.6 for the Rams.

nunusguy
03-15-2005, 05:05 PM
Time to move on and get back into draft mode.

Absolutely. What would we have done over the next month and a half
without having the Draft to kick around ? And it's not the same being in the Draft if you don't have a first round pick. Actually I'm kinda relieved, I could
see giving up the one and maybe a 3, but that's it. Definitely not the 1 and 2
and there was discussion to give up 2 ones - wow, I'm relieved nothing like that happened ! Bring on the Draft !

Overalls
03-15-2005, 05:07 PM
It might have been nice to have Pace on the team but I didn't want us to sell out our future for it. I never like the idea of giving up draft picks, much less a first rounder + others. Oh, well. The Mysterious "THEY" say it takes an offensive lineman time to get up to the pro level play wise, so maybe our young linemen will yet turn into all pros.

Tailgate
03-15-2005, 05:08 PM
Absolutely. What would we have done over the next month and a half
without having the Draft to kick around ? And it's not the same being in the Draft if you don't have a first round pick. Actually I'm kinda relieved, I could
see giving up the one and maybe a 3, but that's it. Definitely not the 1 and 2
and there was discussion to give up 2 ones - wow, I'm relieved nothing like that happened ! Bring on the Draft !


The draft would have been boring for sure. But opening day seeing Pace run out of that tunnel would have been extremely awesome. Though for the right price.

Texan Gal 312
03-15-2005, 05:08 PM
Thats 9.6 attempts per sack for the Texans...

and 11.6 for the Rams.

I knew that was coming. Somehow I don't think we would be pleased with our line play at 11.6 attempts per sack. Would we ?

Vinny
03-15-2005, 05:09 PM
I knew that was coming. Somehow I don't think we would be pleased with our line play at 11.6 attempts per sack. Would we ?Outside of Pace, the Rams line is garbage. Pace is one of the 10 best players in the entire NFL.

dirty steve
03-15-2005, 05:10 PM
are you trying to prove a point, here?

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 05:12 PM
I knew that was coming. Somehow I don't think we would be pleased with our line play at 11.6 attempts per sack. Would we ?

Did Pace play all 5 O-line positions at the same time for the Rams? They have had ORT problems off and on for a few years, even when Kyle Turley was in there. There is no doubt that Pace would have helped our line.

infantrycak
03-15-2005, 05:22 PM
I knew that was coming. Somehow I don't think we would be pleased with our line play at 11.6 attempts per sack. Would we ?

Well I bet Carr for one would have liked 41 sacks instead of 49--still not great but a lot better.

Texan in Japan
03-15-2005, 05:25 PM
We were used. Oh well, it happens.

Agree, but you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 05:47 PM
I've Got GOOD News and BAD NEWS

The GOOD News - You'll Still Get to See Pace Play. :thumbup

The BAD News - You'll Get to See Pace Play. :thumbdown



He used you guys. Do you feel cheap? Violated? :hmmm:
Shame on OP. :)

texansfan88
03-15-2005, 05:50 PM
I've Got GOOD News and BAD NEWS

The GOOD News - You'll Still Get to See Pace Play. :thumbup

The BAD News - You'll Get to See Pace Play. :thumbdown



He used you guys. Do you feel cheap? Violated? :hmmm:
Shame on OP. :)
Man, I can tell you aren't the life of a party...your jokes aren't even funny...even if you're a rams fan.

Pace did play us, but he also played the Rams by doing it...yeah you get him back, but what exactly does that get you? another loss to the Eagles in the 2nd round?

TEXANS84
03-15-2005, 05:58 PM
Pace did play us, but he also played the Rams by doing it...

He sure did. Have fun in cap hell soon Team-Sport.

SESupergenius
03-15-2005, 05:59 PM
I don't think we got used, you're the ones that got stuck with the $51 million price tag. LOL. Now are your fans singing about how overrated and fat he is?

Blake
03-15-2005, 06:07 PM
I don't think we got used, you're the ones that got stuck with the $51 million price tag. LOL. Now are your fans singing about how overrated and fat he is?

Haha, they are singing about how he is the best LT in the NFL, and how he holds that team together. But when contract negotiations go out the door, he is the fattest slob in the world, and needs to get his fat *** out of st louis because hes just an OT

SESupergenius
03-15-2005, 06:14 PM
I know that is just too classic. Nice fair weather fan base the Rams got going.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 06:17 PM
I like how they come out of the woodwork once it looks like he is re-signing.

Texan Gal 312
03-15-2005, 06:21 PM
$51 million - I would think we could sign an upgrade at center and guard for that price. or at least an upgrade at center and an improvement to depth at guard.

I would think improving this weakness would improve our TEAM more than replacing Wand with one of the best in the NFL. Wand is very athletic for his size and has significant upside potential. Hopefully he shows it next year.

SESupergenius
03-15-2005, 06:26 PM
Really, it's up to St. Louis at this point. If nothing more, this puts a little more pressure on those guys. - Orlando Pace (3/14/2005)"

So really, he was just forcing the Rams to handover the money. So how do the Rams fans like being mugged at gunpoint? We got used, they got mugged. Happlily ever after.

Vinny
03-15-2005, 06:28 PM
$51 million - I would think we could sign an upgrade at center and guard for that price. or at least an upgrade at center and an improvement to depth at guard.

I would think improving this weakness would improve our TEAM more than replacing Wand with one of the best in the NFL. Wand is very athletic for his size and has significant upside potential. Hopefully he shows it next year.
I've heard that the team is considering looking at Wade at LT. *shudders*

Team-Sport
03-15-2005, 06:29 PM
Just having fun.

Your Forum is great.

See you guys later.

Peace.

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 06:41 PM
"Yuck it up Fuzzball."

tiger06
03-15-2005, 06:56 PM
There's good things and bad things about this fall through. Obviously, it would have been great to have Pace to anchor our line and protect Carr, but we'd be in a lot of financial trouble trying to keep him and Carr and AJ in a few years. It's good to have our draft picks back though :)

Wolf
03-15-2005, 06:58 PM
I think it would be a mistake for the Texans to make the trade.
if reports are true about 2 first round picks and possibly more..I will be disappointed in the texans on that.

1) I feel the weakness of the line is mainly from Center and guard.
2) we are not deep enough to give up 2+ draft picks (we have seen what has happened with injuries the last 2 years to the defense)


I know Carr needs help and I hate it that we can't protect him. but how much can one guy protect carr? Pace IS a player, but I can't remember Carr having a pocket to step up and throw into

I wish I could find a website that would compare our line to the Rams, because they gave up a lot of sacks also (eventhough they did throw a lot more)

Wolf
03-15-2005, 07:00 PM
There's good things and bad things about this fall through. Obviously, it would have been great to have Pace to anchor our line and protect Carr, but we'd be in a lot of financial trouble trying to keep him and Carr and AJ in a few years. It's good to have our draft picks back though :)


besides that, we still need youth in the defense area.. I am not saying everyone is old on the defensive side, but it would be nice to get some players to groom while Walker, Payne, Glenn, coleman are here.

bubbajaxonbrown
03-15-2005, 07:05 PM
Well said. I'm a huge Coleman and Glenn fan since I'm from Tech but they're both a step or two slower than they used to be. They both still have a year or two left but we'll have to pass the torch at FS and CB soon.

That's why I'd like to see a play at a nice big DB who can play CB or S like Antrel Rolle. He can hit and cover. His 40 is a little slower than some of the other corners but none hit like he does.

tiger06
03-15-2005, 07:11 PM
besides that, we still need youth in the defense area.. I am not saying everyone is old on the defensive side, but it would be nice to get some players to groom while Walker, Payne, Glenn, coleman are here.

yeah, we have lots of options now that we retain the draft picks and cap space otherwise lost in the Pace deal. Should be an interesting draft.

Wolf
03-15-2005, 07:19 PM
I guess I am a skeptic.. when I heard about the 2 plus draftpicks given up , first thing that I think of is the Cowboys and the Joey Galloway trade... with Galloway getting injured and Seahawks drafting Alexander and Robinson(if I am not mistaken) . to me it set the Cowboys back a few years, but they were a team on their last leg to get back to the superbowl and they still are reeling from that IMO (even though they had one good year under the tuna)

Bar_bq
03-15-2005, 07:23 PM
Yeah. As a Rams fan, I've gotta tell you that if u trade for him, h'll be worth it. protection on the blind side is always important, and pace has gone to the pro bowl 6 years straight because of his abilities.

bubbajaxonbrown
03-15-2005, 07:25 PM
I guess I am a skeptic.. when I heard about the 2 plus draftpicks given up , first thing that I think of is the Cowboys and the Joey Galloway trade... with Galloway getting injured and Seahawks drafting Alexander and Robinson(if I am not mistaken) . to me it set the Cowboys back a few years, but they were a team on their last leg to get back to the superbowl and they still are reeling from that IMO (even though they had one good year under the tuna)
You're exactly correct. The Dolphins and the Saints both made the mistake of giving up too many draft picks for Ricky Williams, the Chargers gave up too much to get David Boston, and I bet right now the Giants feel like *****s b/c they could have used the 2nd or 3rd round pick they gave up to get Eli.

It's never a good deal to give up that many draft picks when you have a young team.

TexansTrueFan
03-15-2005, 07:31 PM
i would agree with you about giving up to many draft picks beign a young team, if the coaches hadnt done such a great job of builing this team. I think we are way ahead of where all the past expansion teams were at this point. And we have so much young talent that i dont think it will hurt this team to give up 2 draft picks to get pace ! He will help us more than 2 rookies will !

ThaShark316
03-15-2005, 07:36 PM
Back to Square one since we wont be getting Orlando Beltran...errr Carlos Pace....dammit, I meant Orlando Pace.


^^^jokes...he basically told the Rams to jump, and the Rams said how high.

ccdude730
03-15-2005, 07:37 PM
not necessarily. you cant compare a pro bowl vet with a rookie who might come in and contribute. lets say a rookie beats out mckinney and carr has a pocket to step up into. then LT becomes a non-issue

TheOgre
03-15-2005, 07:42 PM
You're exactly correct. The Dolphins and the Saints both made the mistake of giving up too many draft picks for Ricky Williams, the Chargers gave up too much to get David Boston, and I bet right now the Giants feel like *****s b/c they could have used the 2nd or 3rd round pick they gave up to get Eli.

It's never a good deal to give up that many draft picks when you have a young team.

None of your examples compare to this situation. Pace has been to the Pro Bowl several times. Ricky showed signs of emotional problems as did Boston. Eli has yet to prove or disprove his worth. You are comparing different things. Now if you had mentioned Andre Rison, that might have been a better comparison.

TexansTrueFan
03-15-2005, 07:42 PM
haha a non issue ?? you make it sound like one guy on our line is all thats needed to protect carr ! Even if we get pace the line will still have some troubles. And all your saying is WHAT IFs atleast we know what we're getting with pace.

LBblitz
03-15-2005, 07:43 PM
He might have helped us this coming season...but what about three years from now when he is getting older and more vulnerable to injuries and when his huge salary would push out even more young, raw talent? IMO the trade would have been a disaster. I would much rather see us keep building thru the draft.

TheRealJoker
03-15-2005, 07:45 PM
Would've loved to have a player at his level here. With him on the OL Carr would lack a major scapegoat in his OL for not performing well.

PS: By that I mean the line would give him alot more time in the pocket and let Carr put up the #s. However if he didn't put up the stats, then we possibly should look for a new franchise QB. Not saying Carr isn't good, hard to tell. But if he has a good OL and still doesn't put up nice #s and win games, then he isn't for us.

bubbajaxonbrown
03-15-2005, 07:48 PM
You just mentioned Rison.....so thanks.

ccdude730
03-15-2005, 07:52 PM
haha a non issue ?? you make it sound like one guy on our line is all thats needed to protect carr ! Even if we get pace the line will still have some troubles. And all your saying is WHAT IFs atleast we know what we're getting with pace.
first of all you dont know what your getting. you dont know what you get in return until hindsight - thats common sense.

i know pace is an upgrade over wand, but is getting pace worth draft day 1 draft picks - i dont think so (he will be 30 this year also - hes not a spring chicken either) we might be able to lessen the problem with pass protection with work on the interior of the line - mainly center.

if you think pace would make us an automatic playoff contender or he would give up 0 sacks thats just being ignorant.

TexansTrueFan
03-15-2005, 08:10 PM
we all know how good of a LT pace is, you are just ASSUMING we would get some automatic impact players from the draft, WE have been an extremely lucky team when it comes to the draft so far, but not every pick we make in the future will turn out to be a D-Rob, or babin or D.D or AJ !!!!

TexanExile
03-15-2005, 08:16 PM
LOL@"Orlando Beltran"--classic.

Well, dang it. I was thinking they might pull it off, but as the numbers got higher, I admit I started to question the sanity of taking such a huge cap hit for the foreseeable future. I'm disappointed that the deal didn't happen, but the Texans have had unqualified success with their two most recent #1 picks, so here's hoping that trend continues.

I must say that the antics of the Rams fans were pretty entertaining. "He's a loser! He's a fat @#$*@#&%!!! What, he's coming back? I LOVE that guy! He RULES!"

Heh....it was fun while it lasted.

Wolf
03-15-2005, 08:17 PM
we all know how good of a LT pace is, you are just ASSUMING we would get some automatic impact players from the draft, WE have been an extremely lucky team when it comes to the draft so far, but not every pick we make in the future will turn out to be a D-Rob, or babin or D.D or AJ !!!! I agree with that. We have drafted well.. there are no guarantees in the rookies or there is no guarantees in a veteran getting injured.. I just would take my chances with atleast 2+ of our high draft picks panning out though... that is just me.. skeptic...

it isn't about the age of Pace either on my opinion.. heck this would be a moot point if we took Roaf over Boselli .. did I say that out load? (for the record.. based on doctors (nfl and texan) i'd take boselli)

Wolf
03-15-2005, 08:20 PM
LOL@"Orlando Beltran"--classic.

Well, dang it. I was thinking they might pull it off, but as the numbers got higher, I admit I started to question the sanity of taking such a huge cap hit for the foreseeable future. I'm disappointed that the deal didn't happen, but the Texans have had unqualified success with their two most recent #1 picks, so here's hoping that trend continues.

I must say that the antics of the Rams fans were pretty entertaining. "He's a loser! He's a fat @#$*@#&%!!! What, he's coming back? I LOVE that guy! He RULES!"

Heh....it was fun while it lasted.


nfl.com and espn when I checked was saying that Texans had an offer and the Rams hadn't decided to match it,but a trade could be in the works.. I am confused
:confused:

TheRealJoker
03-15-2005, 08:26 PM
Hmm... The plot thickens methinks...

ccdude730
03-15-2005, 08:28 PM
I agree with that. We have drafted well.. there are no guarantees in the rookies or there is no guarantees in a veteran getting injured.. I just would take my chances with atleast 2+ of our high draft picks panning out though... that is just me.. skeptic...

it isn't about the age of Pace either on my opinion.. heck this would be a moot point if we took Roaf over Boselli .. did I say that out load? (for the record.. based on doctors (nfl and texan) i'd take boselli)

right wolf, we have drafted very well.

id take my chances with our scouts and draft team getting a rookie in here to contribute. but there are no guarantees with veteran injuries and a rookie busting. however, paces age has a slight weigh in on my opinion though.

AndreJ
03-15-2005, 08:29 PM
nfl.com and espn when I checked was saying that Texans had an offer and the Rams hadn't decided to match it,but a trade could be in the works.. I am confused
:confused:

Yeah i just looked at that, ill trust ESPN and NFL.com over what any of you say or the yahoo searched football sites that most of you guys get your info from. Im gonna go along with ESPN and NFL.com and maybe there is still a chance.

P.S. doesn't this feel like the 2000 election (I think it was) When the media came out and said AL Gore was pres., then it was Bush.

utahmark
03-15-2005, 08:34 PM
Yeah i just looked at that, ill trust ESPN and NFL.com over what any of you say or the yahoo searched football sites that most of you guys get your info from. Im gonna go along with ESPN and NFL.com and maybe there is still a chance.

P.S. doesn't this feel like the 2000 election (I think it was) When the media came out and said AL Gore was pres., then it was Bush.


ive been coming to this board long enough to know that the info usually hits this board before any major news site picks it up. im willing to bet that the news on those sites is what we were reading about here yesterday.

AndreJ
03-15-2005, 08:39 PM
ive been coming to this board long enough to know that the info usually hits this board before any major news site picks it up. im willing to bet that the news on those sites or what we were reading about here yesterday.

I'm not sure what you meant in that second sentence, but why would NFL.com come out after Pace supposedly signed with the Rams and say he visited houston and there could be a possible trade. I would like to think that they might get the real facts before houstonprofootball.com or any of the other sites yall get some of this stuff from.

I could be wrong, but im gonna go with the big boys on this one. Only time will tell.

Wolf
03-15-2005, 08:48 PM
here is the article.. but I don't know when it was printed


HOUSTON (March 15, 2005) -- Pro Bowl left tackle Orlando Pace wrapped up a two-day visit with the Houston Texans on March 15, the first step of a process that could eventually lead to a trade with the St. Louis Rams.

"We've had contact with the Rams and we brought the player in for a visit," Texans general manager Charley Casserly said. "That's all I'm going to say for now."

St. Louis faces a 4 p.m. EST March 16 deadline to re-sign Pace. After that, under NFL rules the Rams wouldn't be allowed to strike a deal with him until July 15.

That would mean Pace would miss the Rams' offseason conditioning program, summer minicamps and, most likely, the start of training camp for the third straight year. However, St. Louis still could trade Pace or receive an offer sheet from other teams.

The Texans have about $5 million in salary cap space available, and could have another $4.75 million if they release linebacker Jamie Sharper as expected. That would give Houston enough money to add Pace.

The Rams have used their franchise player designation on Pace since 2003, keeping him in a series of one-year contracts that paid him the average of the NFL's highest-paid offensive tackles. Pace made $7.02 million last season.

Pace is seeking a new contract similar to one recently signed by Walter Jones of Seattle. After years of contract disputes with the Seahawks, Jones agreed to a seven-year, $52.5 million deal that included a $16 million signing bonus.

Pace's agent, Kennard McGuire, didn't immediately return several messages left at his office.

The addition of Pace would help solidify what has been a shaky position with the Texans since the franchise started play in 2002.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/8295136

TexansTrueFan
03-15-2005, 08:50 PM
well after the rockets game last night they were talking about it, and interviewed pace. So the info we got cant be to far off.

AndreJ
03-15-2005, 09:03 PM
If any of you have NFL Network, NFL total acess is about to come on and they plan to talk about Pace.

AndreJ
03-15-2005, 09:08 PM
They just said the Rams did up there deal and he is looking to resign a long-term contract with the Rams. Guess that solves that prob., now we can move on with the off-season....guess its back to who will be #13.

infantrycak
03-15-2005, 09:11 PM
According to Mike Claiborne of radio station KFNS in St. Louis, the Rams are close to an agreement with franchise left tackle Orlando Pace.
Advertisment

Pace confirmed this on KFNS radio in an interview this afternoon saying, "we're very close."

Claiborne believes it is a 7-yr deal worth $52.8. Pace will get a $15 million signing bonus with a total of $26 million in the first three years of the contract. Pace said "It was important to me to get money up front.”

Link (http://theredzone.org/news/showarticle.asp?ArticleID=2456)

TexansTrueFan
03-15-2005, 09:12 PM
well i hope he had a nice 2 way flight to houston. :loser

F-minus67
03-15-2005, 09:24 PM
And so it ends....

utahmark
03-15-2005, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure what you meant in that second sentence, but why would NFL.com come out after Pace supposedly signed with the Rams and say he visited houston and there could be a possible trade. I would like to think that they might get the real facts before houstonprofootball.com or any of the other sites yall get some of this stuff from.

I could be wrong, but im gonna go with the big boys on this one. Only time will tell.


i was just saying that it takes time for those bigger sites such as nfl.com to get and confirm there reports. then it probably has to be approved by an editor and so on. the guys on this board just get the info then they type it. you would be amazed at how often they are correct. i read a thread about boseli ending his career a day before any newspaper or tv said anything about it. and now the news we are getting is confirming everything we have been reading here. have a little faith.

Ranger
03-15-2005, 09:47 PM
Who says its ended? Just because he has signed a deal with the Rams, doesn't mean this whole thing has ended. Have you ever heard of a sign and trade?

The Texans are in no hurry to sign an offer sheet. If they do that and the Rams decline, then we will be forced to give up are 1st this year and next. By no means do we want to do that.

The Texans-Rams plan here may be for the Rams to work the contract with him, and then he could be traded to the Texans for a "smaller asking price" than those 2 first round picks. If the Texans had signed the offer sheet, we would have been forced to give away those 2 first round picks and that would have been the trade. Now with Pace signed with a contract, the Rams can trade him to Houston for a 1st and whatever else they want.

I don't know, maybe this is the end and he has signed with the Rams and plans to say. If it is, than Pace's agent just did a heck of a job by letting come to Houston and see the Texans were serious in this thing to let the Rams see what his true market vaule is and make Pace a better offer after they got scared that Pace might sign with us.

So the road goes on..............

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 10:09 PM
This is funny, right before he left Houston he said he loved the visit, he enjoyed talking to Carr and Capers and said hes excited about the possibility of playing here, as Texans are a team on the rise. Right after that he told St louis he wants to stay in St louis..I think he's playin mind games

infantrycak
03-15-2005, 10:09 PM
heck this would be a moot point if we took Roaf over Boselli .. did I say that out load? (for the record.. based on doctors (nfl and texan) i'd take boselli)

That was a really weird deal. The NFL took Roaf out of availability for the expansion draft for not being medically fit so the Texans never had a choice. How the NFL concluded Boselli was fit enough when he couldn't practice or anything we will never know. Of course Willie Roaf hasn't missed a game since and Boselli never played one. Imagine what might have happened if the NFL had pulled Boselli and left Roaf available.

TexansTrueFan
03-15-2005, 10:12 PM
That was a really weird deal. The NFL took Roaf out of availability for the expansion draft for not being medically fit so the Texans never had a choice. How the NFL concluded Boselli was fit enough when he couldn't practice or anything we will never know. Of course Willie Roaf hasn't missed a game since and Boselli never played one. Imagine what might have happened if the NFL had pulled Boselli and left Roaf available.


hmm very interesting !!!!

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 10:19 PM
from STL Today

The best suggestion I’ve heard from our Houston counterparts had the Texans sending a first-round draft pick plus starting left tackle Seth Wand to the Rams for Pace.

Wand, a 6-foot-7, 330-pound behemoth from Northwest Missouri State, started all 16 games for the Texans last season. I've heard some good things about him, but why would Houston trade him if he had a big upside and a low salary?

It makes you wonder. Taking on Pace’s huge salary wouldn’t make sense for Houston if Wand was ready to become a “plus” player at that position.

------

Houston seems willing to pay the going rate for Pro Bowl tackles, so Pace is not going to accept less to stay in St. Louis.

If Shaw, Zygmunt and Co. decide they can’t pay the going rate for Pro Bowl tackles, for whatever reason, then they must score big while trading Pace.

They must get a player who can help right now, in a big way. They must add a second player who addresses the offensive line’s future. And they must take whatever cap money is saved and spend it wisely on other needs.

Trading Orlando Pace could make or break the Rams in 2005 and beyond, depending on how it played out.

The Rams are on the clock . . .

the full story (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/jeffgordon/story/49E98808BA82472E86256FC5006ED62F?OpenDocument)

Jwwillis
03-15-2005, 10:44 PM
You can tell by the fact that the Texans are considering high priced O-Lineman free agents that they are looking for a quick fix to the teams most vexing problem. I still say the Texans are suffering from the Boselli bust to this day. Most have been of the opinion that nothing would be done with the O-Line this off season to give the existing line time to jell and it was a focal point last year. It may be that patience among fans are already wearing thin and the coaches are looking over there shoulder. After all, if the Texans dont make the playoffs this year most seem to be of the opinion that heads should roll. So, there goes the "build from the draft" mentallity (thus not breaking the bank), and on to the "high priced quick fix" mentallity. Im sure there are some out there that are against the Pace deal and demand the playoffs next year too. Fact is, the Texans O-Line is not playioff calliber without drastic change or perhaps 2 more seasons with the same personel. Three years of being pummeled by NFL D-Lineman is starting to take its toll on Carr and his confidence and I think the coaches know it. Problem is, there is no easy answer.

TexansTrueFan
03-15-2005, 10:56 PM
You can tell by the fact that the Texans are considering high priced O-Lineman free agents that they are looking for a quick fix to the teams most vexing problem. I still say the Texans are suffering from the Boselli bust to this day. Most have been of the opinion that nothing would be done with the O-Line this off season to give the existing line time to jell and it was a focal point last year. It may be that patience among fans are already wearing thin and the coaches are looking over there shoulder. After all, if the Texans dont make the playoffs this year most seem to be of the opinion that heads should roll. So, there goes the "build from the draft" mentallity (thus not breaking the bank), and on to the "high priced quick fix" mentallity. Im sure there are some out there that are against the Pace deal and demand the playoffs next year too. Fact is, the Texans O-Line is not playioff calliber without drastic change or perhaps 2 more seasons with the same personel. Three years of being pummeled by NFL D-Lineman is starting to take its toll on Carr and his confidence and I think the coaches know it. Problem is, there is no easy answer.


yeah i can agree tony really screwed things up for this team on the OL !!!

outofhnd
03-16-2005, 03:19 AM
I am against the Pace trade as well. Yea I would love to have his talent but i DOnt like his attitude and lack of work ethic. He is extremely talented but at his age with his lacksidaisical workout routine and M.O. for not showing up for any preseason conditioning only means that when he declines it will be a monstrous dropoff in talent level. He will then become a financial liability for the remainder of his tenure and the texans couldn't get a hotdog in a trade for Orlando at that point. I think we should wait and draft a top tier OL in next years draft when there should be a plethora available. I think Wand should workout with Peek on picking up the speed rush. Plus we keep forgetting we changed blocking schemes last year maybe we give it another year or maybe just ditch the blocking scheme all together. I don't think its a personnel issue at this time I say give Wand another year now that he has played 16 games and is a year wiser

Though on a positive note that over his career pace has recovered 4 fumbles

BornOrange
03-16-2005, 05:36 AM
Who says its ended? Just because he has signed a deal with the Rams, doesn't mean this whole thing has ended. Have you ever heard of a sign and trade?

It ends when Pace signs a contract with the Rams.

There are no sign and trades in the NFL, at least not with contracts this size.

In the NFL, if a player is traded then the entire cap hit of the signing bonus is taken that first year. So if the Rams were to sign Pace and then trade him, they would take a $15 million hit against the cap.

Pace is now a Ram for the rest of his career.