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clandestin
03-14-2005, 07:45 PM
Casserly's original maifesto on 'How to Build an NFL team' did state to "Build through the draft"

HOWEVER another major point was "Secure the Offensive Tackle position NOW"

ginessey
03-14-2005, 07:50 PM
Well I can only think of two reasons why I would give whatever I needed to get Pace.

1. Dwight
2. Freeney

dirty steve
03-14-2005, 07:53 PM
was mckinney's run blocking a big deal???

4 sacks given up, no false starts

ccdude730
03-14-2005, 07:57 PM
Well I can only think of two reasons why I would give whatever I needed to get Pace.

1. Dwight
2. Freeney

i think thats the most rediculous thing ive read so far. maybe freeney is just good

utahmark
03-14-2005, 07:57 PM
As to building the team, we have signed FA's as starters in 4 of the 6 line positions (if you include the TE) and Pitts was a 2nd rounder and Wand is a 3rd rounder to round out our line. On top of that the team picked up Tony Boselli in the expansion draft but obviously that didn't work out. If it did, we would have nothing but a veteran line with a second round pick in Pitts as our LG. Our goal was a veteran line with young developing, emerging skill players. Most people just don’t slow down long enough to see that. With Pace we have what we wanted in Boselli all along. A veteran line with young developing skill players.


im just not sure that we are getting the bang for the buck on the o-line. with pace i bet we will have one of the most expensive lines in the league. and unless they do something to improve the middle of the line i think our o-oline will be middle of the pack. even with pace.

we are starting to drop a few players creating dead money and signing free agents for more than they are worth. i think we just have to be really careful signing a high priced player like pace. we had a lot more cap room when we signed boselli.

Runner
03-14-2005, 08:01 PM
In some cases the pass rush up the middle flushed Carr, and Wade or Wand got credited with giving up the sack when Carr tried to run around the end. Not much a tackle can do when he doesn't know the QB is coming past him from behind and the DE can see him.

Also the stats certainly don't tell the whole story. For instance, the best pass rusher was almost always the right end, our guards and center do more double teaming (two outside rushers, two inside vs. 5 O-lineman), and the Texan scheme rarely had the right DE double teamed. This also doesn't show the number of plays each player was in for. Yada, yada, yada.

Stats are a piece of evidence, but they don't tell the whole story.

FrankieGORAMS
03-14-2005, 08:02 PM
Pace has been good for us during the season. But with the contracts we have in addition to his, our hands are tied in free agency. I wish this would have gone through before Sharper signed but Hartwell is a good posibility with Pace gone. This is a great deal for both clubs. You will like him. He should be much more in shape after doing the training camps as well.

Runner
03-14-2005, 08:03 PM
i think thats the most rediculous thing ive read so far. maybe freeney is just good

Nah - if he gets past Pace 2-3 times next year, Pace will be the biggest bust in Texan history and we'll have to break the bank to get John Ogden. :woot

ThaShark316
03-14-2005, 08:09 PM
Nah - if he gets past Pace 2-3 times next year, Pace will be the biggest bust in Texan history and we'll have to break the bank to get John Ogden. :woot


Freeney got past Ogden twice last yr during that sunday night game with BAL and IND.

ramsfan1
03-14-2005, 08:09 PM
St. Louis local news is reporting that the Texans and OP have an agreement in principle. None of the Rams top brass have been contacted by the Texans as of 7:24PM CST. There has been no formal offer sheet. This being because the Texans don't want to give up two picks and would like to negotiate a trade. Top officials at Rams Park are saying that they will not come off of the two first picks. Looks like a Stalemate.

Runner
03-14-2005, 08:12 PM
Freeney got past Ogden twice last yr during that sunday night game with BAL and IND.

Oh man - does that mean Ogden can't play either? What's this league coming to if a GREAT defensive end can beat almost all tackles 1 on 1?

texansfan88
03-14-2005, 08:16 PM
St. Louis local news is reporting that the Texans and OP have an agreement in principle. None of the Rams top brass have been contacted by the Texans as of 7:24PM CST. There has been no formal offer sheet. This being because the Texans don't want to give up two picks and would like to negotiate a trade. Top officials at Rams Park are saying that they will not come off of the two first picks. Looks like a Stalemate.
well, it looks as if Pace couldn't care less about STL anymore. He'll play there another season and bolt if nothing happens

MojoX
03-14-2005, 08:18 PM
well, it looks as if Pace couldn't care less about STL anymore. He'll play there another season and bolt if nothing happens
I've been wondering about this. Could he not be slapped with the tag again next season or is there some limit to how many times a player can be f-tagged?

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 08:21 PM
I've been wondering about this. Could he not be slapped with the tag again next season or is there some limit to how many times a player can be f-tagged?

No!!!

A team could only use the tag for 3 years in a row on one player and if they do they lose the right to franchise a player for the following year. Thats why STL wants him traded or a long term deal.

Blake
03-14-2005, 08:22 PM
I've been wondering about this. Could he not be slapped with the tag again next season or is there some limit to how many times a player can be f-tagged?

He will be slapped with the tag until the Rams get tired.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-14-2005, 08:23 PM
I've been wondering about this. Could he not be slapped with the tag again next season or is there some limit to how many times a player can be f-tagged?


There would be a 20% increase to the price they would have to pay.

MIGHTYTEX
03-14-2005, 08:26 PM
"St. Louis local news is reporting that the Texans and OP have an agreement in principle. None of the Rams top brass have been contacted by the Texans as of 7:24PM CST. There has been no formal offer sheet. This being because the Texans don't want to give up two picks and would like to negotiate a trade. Top officials at Rams Park are saying that they will not come off of the two first picks. Looks like a Stalemate."

I'm sure that the "top brass" will change their minds if the Texans offer them more than one pick this year. I wouldn't be surprise if its like our 1st and one of our 3rds and a 3rd or 4th next year.

ramsfan1
03-14-2005, 08:32 PM
You could be correct about the change of mind. Pace is not a team player and a large contract will hurt the Texans and any other team that caves in to his demands. He has been offered two contracts by the Rams. the last one being very comparable to the Walter Jones deal. If any team can afford to pay OP substantially more the Jones is getting, it is going to be a BIG cap hit for years to come. I don't know how much cap room you guys have, but I don't think Pace is worth mortaging the future of the franchise for a dozen years. My opinion only.

Jay Zigmunt, of the Rams has adamantly said that the Rams will take no less than two first picks.

ThaShark316
03-14-2005, 08:33 PM
Oh man - does that mean Ogden can't play either? What's this league coming to if a GREAT defensive end can beat almost all tackles 1 on 1?


I wasn't making it sound like Odgen can't play...I'm just making a statement...its not like Odgen now sucks. Freeney is Freeney...he's gonna do that to almost anyone.

Vinny
03-14-2005, 08:35 PM
Just surfing the net and ran across this. CFN rated the top 100 players of all time and they have Pace at number 29.

The Pancake: Pace was so dominating with his blocks that a term was created for the way he knocked a defensive player on his back - the Pancake Block. In his junior season, Pace was credited with 80 Pancakes. As good as he was blocking for the running game, he was equally adept at pass blocking not allowing a sack in his last two years at Ohio State. One of his greatest games was his humiliation of Illinois' Simeon Rice completely shutting down the Illini star and registering ten Pancakes that day.

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_29_Orlando_Pace.htm

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 08:37 PM
You could be correct about the change of mind. Pace is not a team player and a large contract will hurt the Texans and any other team that caves in to his demands. He has been offered two contracts by the Rams. the last one being very comparable to the Walter Jones deal. If any team can afford to pay OP substantially more the Jones is getting, it is going to be a BIG cap hit for years to come. I don't know how much cap room you guys have, but I don't think Pace is worth mortaging the future of the franchise for a dozen years. My opinion only.

Jay Zigmunt, of the Rams has adamantly said that the Rams will take no less than two first picks.

One thing that Charlie Casserly prides himself in, is that he knows the ins and outs of the salary cap and would NEVER put this team in a postion that would restrict the Texans in the future.

Casserly is one of the guys that helped make the salary cap.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-14-2005, 08:39 PM
Just surfing the net and ran across this. CFN rated the top 100 players of all time and they have Pace at number 29.



http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_29_Orlando_Pace.htm


That's gotta be based on their college careers because Ron Dayne is ranked 12th on the list. Pace is their #1 college OT of all time. :thumbup

TexasJedi
03-14-2005, 08:40 PM
Well I can only think of two reasons why I would give whatever I needed to get Pace.

1. Dwight
2. Freeney

We may have to add a #3, albeit a distant 3, to that list if Reggie Hayward pans out for Jacksonville.

ramsfan1
03-14-2005, 08:40 PM
How much cap room do the Texans have?

texansfan88
03-14-2005, 08:40 PM
You could be correct about the change of mind. Pace is not a team player and a large contract will hurt the Texans and any other team that caves in to his demands. He has been offered two contracts by the Rams. the last one being very comparable to the Walter Jones deal. If any team can afford to pay OP substantially more the Jones is getting, it is going to be a BIG cap hit for years to come. I don't know how much cap room you guys have, but I don't think Pace is worth mortaging the future of the franchise for a dozen years. My opinion only.

Jay Zigmunt, of the Rams has adamantly said that the Rams will take no less than two first picks.
Yeah, they may have offered him big contracts, but maybe he just doesn't want to be tehre at all. the dome isn't exactly an ideal place

Vinny
03-14-2005, 08:42 PM
That's gotta be based on their college careers because Ron Dayne is ranked 12th on the list. Pace is their #1 college OT of all time. :thumbup
Yeah, its collegefootball.com I didn't realize Pace was the one who inspired the pancake block term.

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 08:43 PM
How much cap room do the Texans have?

According to John Clayton as of March 4th - $8.9 million dollars. But that does not include the $890,000 they saved today with the 2 cuts and then Jamie Sharper will either be cut or traded and his number right now is $6.1 million dollars and the Texans would save money there after they trade or cut him.

MojoX
03-14-2005, 08:49 PM
No!!!

A team could only use the tag for 3 years in a row on one player and if they do they lose the right to franchise a player for the following year. Thats why STL wants him traded or a long term deal.
He will be slapped with the tag until the Rams get tired.
???? So which is it?

If there is a limit to the number of times a guy can be tagged, then the price for Pace should be much, much lower than 2 firsts. Afterall, Pace will walk in a season for nothing anyway. So the Rams should just take a first and third and be happy.

If there is no limit, then the Texans are crazy to cough up two firsts. I know there is concern that, after 3 seasons of beatings, Carr may be getting a little gunshy. I realize that any move for Pace should be seen as protecting the team's #1 asset in Carr. But I'd rather find another way to protect Carr instead of coughing up both capspace and future picks for the Pancake.

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 08:53 PM
There is a limit on how many times a player can get tagged.

The Texans won't have to pay the 2 first round picks because OP didn't sign the franchise tag sheet yet. The Rams will come off the two 1st rounders

ramsfan1
03-14-2005, 08:55 PM
I hope you are right, because we would like to get rid of the cancer.

BornOrange
03-14-2005, 08:55 PM
I didn't realize Pace was the one who inspired the pancake block term.
He didn't. That term has been used for years.

Runner
03-14-2005, 09:08 PM
I wasn't making it sound like Odgen can't play...I'm just making a statement...its not like Odgen now sucks. Freeney is Freeney...he's gonna do that to almost anyone.

I know - I was joking - which never comes across in a forum. It's just that half the dissatisfaction people have with Wand is that Freeney made him look bad. Not a fair way to grade a player.

BuffSoldier
03-14-2005, 09:11 PM
I was waiting for the Rockets game to come on, on FoX Sports Net and the reporter said that the Texans have all but signed Orlando Pace and HE SHOULD BE IN HOUSTON BY WEDNSDAY . :woot

GotMojo80
03-14-2005, 09:12 PM
I was waiting for the Rockets game to come on, on FoX Sports Net and the reporter said that the Texans have all but signed Orlando Pace and HE SHOULD BE IN HOUSTON BY WEDNSDAY . :woot
IF the texans and rams can work out compensation.

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 09:13 PM
I was waiting for the Rockets game to come on, on FoX Sports Net and the reporter said that the Texans have all but signed Orlando Pace and HE SHOULD BE IN HOUSTON BY WEDNSDAY . :woot

He is in Houston with his agent right now.

texansfan88
03-14-2005, 09:13 PM
I'm waiting to hear Marc Berman's report...if he says its on, then it's on

Panther5407
03-14-2005, 09:14 PM
Wait, is Pace a FA or still with the Rams because I remember coming home from the doctor one day and listening to Jim Rome talk about him being a free agent. Anyways, I dont want to give up our first round pick.

BuffSoldier
03-14-2005, 09:14 PM
He is in Houston with his agent right now.
I mean that he should be in Houston, with a signed contract, and a pretty blue Texans jersey around his massive frame.

IshouldbeGM
03-14-2005, 09:15 PM
compensation shouldnt be a problem. The rams have until weds to complete a deal or theyll lose the right to franchise pace next yr. The pressure is on the rams, hopefully theyll lower their asking price

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 09:16 PM
I mean that he should be in Houston, with a signed contract, and a pretty blue Texans jersey around his massive frame.

I got you !!!

BornOrange
03-14-2005, 09:17 PM
And Pace has been around for years. The term was coined after some of his blocks in college.
He wasn't playing football in the 80's, and I know the term was used then because I used it.

TEXANS84
03-14-2005, 09:20 PM
Pretty popular around here tonight, 101 people viewing this....

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 09:22 PM
Pretty popular around here tonight, 101 people viewing this....


Its not every day that you can get one of the top OT in the game.

TommyS
03-14-2005, 09:22 PM
i just cant see it. i always saw the texans as a hard working blue collar kinda team (excuse the obvious cliches). i can understand giving bigish contracts to young, rising players (greenwood, r.smith) and i like bringing in veterans like breuner for the minimum, but i just dont see this team as in need of a "star" - read huge cap hit - lineman. we already overpay 3 of our 5 starters on the line, so why pay big for another? since when did we become a team thats one player away from a championship?

how much do the Pats pay their line? nothing. and theyre the best team in the league. now i realise that brady has a much quicker release, but still. the guy went down what, 20 times last year? there's good line play there. solid players who know the scheme. give the line another year. by all means draft a tackle at 13 and a centre in the 2nd/3rd, but dont rush and give up picks for a selfish, albeit superb, player.

when was the last time anyone heard the words 'orlando pace' and 'team player' or 'good locker room influence' in the same sentence. those are the players i want my team to be associated with. okay, he's a superb player. but i want a great team.

could we convince mcnair (bob) to give scott pioli a similar contract to the one they're offering Pace? it wouldnt count on the salary cap, and i'll guarantee success for years.

any thoughts?

infantrycak
03-14-2005, 09:23 PM
No!!!

A team could only use the tag for 3 years in a row on one player and if they do they lose the right to franchise a player for the following year. Thats why STL wants him traded or a long term deal.

Do you have a source for this because the NFL CBA doesn't mention any three year limit?

See
Article XX. (http://www.nflpa.org/members/main.asp?subPage=CBA+Complete#art20)

Team-Sport
03-14-2005, 09:24 PM
compensation shouldnt be a problem. The rams have until weds to complete a deal or theyll lose the right to franchise pace next yr. The pressure is on the rams, hopefully theyll lower their asking priceYou've got it mixed up. IF the Rams sign Pace after March 15 up until July 15, they lose the right to Franchise Tag ANY Player for the length of Pace's contract.

NO, the pressure is not on the Rams. If the Texans really want Pace, they can sign him to an offer sheet. Either the Rams match it, or let him go for the Texan's 2005 and 2006 #1 Picks.

BornOrange
03-14-2005, 09:25 PM
OK, after a quick Google search it turns out that the term "pancake block" was first used for Bill Fralic when he played at Pitt from 81-84.

PFW article about Fralic (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/NFC/NFC+South/Atlanta/Features/2005/fralic012605.htm)

CFN article (http://www.collegefootballnews.com/2004/Columnists/HistoricalDebate_OLUFIU.htm)

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 09:25 PM
Do you have a source for this because the NFL CBA doesn't mention any three year limit?

See
Article XX. (http://www.nflpa.org/members/main.asp?subPage=CBA+Complete#art20)

From ESPN article:

The Rams have franchised Pace for three consecutive years. Under terms of that designation, the Rams have until Wednesday to work out a long-term contract and regain the ability to franchise a player in 2006. Any long agreement reached between Wednesday and July 15 would cost St. Louis its franchise tag for the length of that contract.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2012782

Good enough for you??

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 09:28 PM
i misread the info

infantrycak
03-14-2005, 09:30 PM
From ESPN article:

The Rams have franchised Pace for three consecutive years. Under terms of that designation, the Rams have until Wednesday to work out a long-term contract and regain the ability to franchise a player in 2006. Any long agreement reached between Wednesday and July 15 would cost St. Louis its franchise tag for the length of that contract.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2012782

Well that doesn't say it can't be used on Pace again. What they are describing is that if a long term deal is quickly worked out--i.e. no need to use the franchise tag on him--then they can franchise someone else. If a sever year deal is completed after Wednesday the Rams will not be able to franchise anyone until the 2012 season.

TommyS
03-14-2005, 09:30 PM
just wondering why there isnt any mention of

1) pace visit
2) foreman release
3) brown release

on the official website, cbs or espn (pace visit excluded). is it some huge secret that only diehard message board fans are allowed to know about ;)

Panther5407
03-14-2005, 09:31 PM
just wondering why there isnt any mention of

1) pace visit
2) foreman release
3) brown release

on the official website, cbs or espn (pace visit excluded). is it some huge secret that only diehard message board fans are allowed to know about ;)

Or Rocky Benards visit if I can add something to your list.

texansfan88
03-14-2005, 09:32 PM
when was the last time anyone heard the words 'orlando pace' and 'team player' or 'good locker room influence' in the same sentence. those are the players i want my team to be associated with. okay, he's a superb player. but i want a great team. any thoughts?
Did anyone say Corey DIllon was a team player in Cincinnati? maybe Pace just wants a new change in his lifestyle...

texanfan2002114
03-14-2005, 09:33 PM
Did anyone say Corey DIllon was a team player in Cincinnati? maybe Pace just wants a new change in his lifestyle...


I totally agree with you!!! i don't think Casserly or McNair would bring in a locker room headache.

TommyS
03-14-2005, 09:38 PM
fair enough, but dillion had the incentive of being on a championship caliber team - can you imagine if he'd gone to sanfrancisco and lost 14 games, i'm betting the guy would've been complaining pretty loud. we are not, yet, a championship caliber team. and pace wont make us one. he'll make us better, but at what cost?

Team-Sport
03-14-2005, 09:38 PM
Your wrong. Read the article. The pressure is on the Rams.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2012782I read the article this morning. Why is there pressure on the Rams? If the Rams don't work out a deal by Wednesday with Pace, his Cap Number of $8.4M will immediately count against us. So, we then keep one of the best OTs in the Game. We can work around it, trust me.

This trip to Houston was orchestrated by Pace, His Agents, and the Texans. We will see how bad they want him. Rams Sources are saying NO Trade, 2 #1s as Compensation.

AndreJ
03-14-2005, 09:41 PM
fair enough, but dillion had the incentive of being on a championship caliber team - can you imagine if he'd gone to sanfrancisco and lost 14 games, i'm betting the guy would've been complaining pretty loud. we are not, yet, a championship caliber team. and pace wont make us one. he'll make us better, but at what cost?

I get the feeling you are comparing us to the 2004 SF 49ers, i realize you're trying to make a point, but bad analogy, please don't do that again. :whistle:

Ranger
03-14-2005, 09:41 PM
Never once I have doubted Charley Casserly and the front office in what they were trying to accomplish here. Now I do.

I would love to see a player with the caliber of Orlando Pace playing LT, actually just playing for the Texans. If we brought him in here, he would arguably be the best player on the rooster. What I am worried about is what the future would hold.

We have Seth Wand. In two years here and one starting, he has shown promise. Yes he didn't look great, and yes there is questions if he is the guy. But he shows promise and why would you bump a guy down on the depth charts for good if he is still developing and can become a solid starter?

Orlando Pace will come at no prutty price, in more ways than one. He will want a contract probably around $7.5 mil a year if not more. Now if I remember right we just gave Greenwood a contract worth what $22.5 over 4 years? We really don't have that much money to spend, and with this big contract that Pace would cost us, I don't see us making any moves in FA for the next few years without resturcting contracts and what not. Do we really want to go down that road?

I think you guys are getting this wrong--the Texans plan is to have him sign with the Rams first, and then be traded to the Texans. The Texans will sign no offer sheet. It would be foolish to trade away two first round draft picks. But the Rams are making it clear they want at least ONE first rounder, and we seem to be excepting that. What else they want I don't know, but I'm guessing at least another draft pick maybe our second 3rd or a 4th or 5th, and then maybe we could throw in Jamie Sharper because they are hurting in the LB corps.

I'm not worried about giving up Sharper or maybe another player, but I'm worried about the draft picks, especially if they want 2. Chasserly always has said "we build from the draft". They could be throwing this year's draft and a draft pick they once had in Seth Wand who hasn't had enough time to develop away. So much for that.

McNair said at the beginning of the offseason he wanted to fix this OL and he would go in great strides to do so. I'm starting to understand what he meant, but if you want to fix the OLine, LT is not the biggest problem or priority. Go out and find us a better center or a reliable RG and then we can start talking about LT.

I would love to see Orlando Pace here, he could be the missing peice to our offense and really give it a spark. I'm just convinced he will hurt us and the development of this team in the longrun.

Tailgate
03-14-2005, 09:43 PM
I read the article this morning. Why is there pressure on the Rams? If the Rams don't work out a deal by Wednesday with Pace, his Cap Number of $8.4M will immediately count against us. So, we then keep one of the best OTs in the Game. We can work around it, trust me.

This trip to Houston was orchestrated by Pace, His Agents, and the Texans. We will see how bad they want him. Rams Sources are saying NO Trade, 2 #1s as Compensation.


If its going to be 2 #1s.... then consider this all a big waste of time.

alphajoker
03-14-2005, 09:44 PM
Hope it happens, just not for two 1st rounders

Tailgate
03-14-2005, 09:48 PM
Hope it happens, just not for two 1st rounders

2 first rounders is NOT gonna happen.

AndreJ
03-14-2005, 09:48 PM
We have Seth Wand. In two years here and one starting, he has shown promise. Yes he didn't look great, and yes there is questions if he is the guy. But he shows promise and why would you bump a guy down on the depth charts for good if he is still developing and can become a solid starter?

I'm not worried about giving up Sharper or maybe another player, but I'm worried about the draft picks, especially if they want 2. Chasserly always has said "we build from the draft". They could be throwing this year's draft and a draft pick they once had in Seth Wand who hasn't had enough time to develop away. So much for that.

I'm just convinced he will hurt us and the development of this team in the longrun. [/B]

I think these were very good points, i would hate to see Wand go somewhere else and become a quality starting LT for another team. And if Pace is to come at that big of a price, I'm not sure thats good for the longrun either. I think right now they are looking for an immediate increase in production from the O-Line and thats what they are going after.

I believe the information on here is pretty credible, but i want to see this on ESPN or NFL network, just to see the details and what not.

alphajoker
03-14-2005, 09:49 PM
hope your right

Tailgate
03-14-2005, 09:50 PM
I think its simple.

1 first round and some change.... DO IT

2 first round picks.... DONT

Team-Sport
03-14-2005, 09:52 PM
Do You All Remember This?

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/scout/scout52.html

=====================================
March 17, 2003
The Pace Chase Is On
by Keith Weiland
HoustonProFootball.com

The first true offseason has been a pedestrian one thus far for the Texans. The team signed a couple players here, lost a couple players there. Mix in a low-wattage trade for a backup lineman, and that's really been about it.

Well, the pace may be quickening. And by pace, I mean Orlando Pace.

An all-everything left tackle for the St. Louis Rams, Pace is in the midst of what is turning out to be an nasty round of contract negotiations. At 27 years old and arguably the best lineman in the game, Pace and his agent, Carl Poston, feel as though he deserves some special money.

The Rams know it, too, because they have seen Pace deliver on Sundays. He has been a significant part of their two Super Bowl teams in the past four seasons. Problem is, as a result of that success, the Rams have too many other players that deserve some special money as well.

So to help manage the bleeding of their salary cap, the Rams slapped the gauze of a franchise tag on Pace before the free agency period commenced earlier this month. What that means is that St. Louis keeps Pace on its roster for one year at $5.83 million while the front office negotiates with him and his agent on a long-term deal.

But the pace of those negotiations has slowed to a screeching halt. With the passing of the 15-day deadline that encourages teams to reach long-term deals with their franchised players, the Rams will lose the right to use the franchise tag again for the length of any new contract if Pace is signed before July 15.

Pace is now likely to sit out mini-camps, offseason workouts, and possibly training camp. Pace could even threaten to sit out part of, or even all of, the 2003 season.

Not a big surprise that this could get ugly since there's a history here of prolonged contract disputes between the Rams and Pace. As a result, the rumors linking possible trades involving Pace, ostensibly for the purpose of either side creating some leverage on the other, were left for the fodder of conspiracy theorists and online message boards.

That was until Poston's comments on Friday legitimized some of the rumors.

"We're asking for a trade," he said. "We'd like to see a trade happen. And the only reason we're doing that is that the Rams are not negotiating. They refuse to. I don't know why."

Just a guess, Carl, but the reason why probably has a little something to do with the outrageousness of what you're asking for on behalf of your client.

According to reports in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, the numbers Poston and Pace are asking is something in the range of - you might want to sit down for this - seven or eight years for a total of $85 million, including a $23.8 million bonus. The Rams are believed to be offering roughly half that amount.

Pace is, however, the top offensive tackle in game and that does come at a hefty price. At 6'7" and 325 pounds, Pace was once a strong Heisman candidate - at tackle fer crissakes! - and he has lived up to those expectations as a pro. He was the first overall selection in the 1997 draft, and on his résumé are a few Pro Bowls and a Super Bowl ring.

The idea of a trade could make sense for the Rams, especially if the team is able to acquire a player like the Saints' Kyle Turley for a late first or early second round pick. Turley is asking for less than half the bonus money Pace is seeking.

So where do the Texans fit in to all of this? Probably just as a negotiating ploy, so don't get too carried away, but the Texans are on a VERY short list of possible trading partners should the Rams decide to make an offer.

Houston general manager Charley Casserly wouldn't be doing his job if he weren't at least paying attention to this situation. If Pace could be had for the team's first round pick in April (at #3 overall), plus maybe a couple of third rounders tossed in for good measure, then this could be an attractive acquisition, especially for a team whose quarterback is one year removed from establishing the record for turf sandwiches.

Another possibility for a trade offer might be Houston's early second rounder (#36 overall) this year and a first rounder in 2004. The Rams could then offer Houston's second round selection to add Turley.

Anything more than that though, and the Texans should consider the offer too rich.

The key to any trade is whether Casserly and Poston could knock out a more fiscally responsible contract for the Texans. Ain't no way Pace is getting a $23.8 million bonus, but the figures bandied about might explain why the Texans are the only team currently rumored as being possible suitors in potential trade scenarios.

Other suitors could eventually surface. One team that comes to mind as being in need of a tackle, and having some wiggle room in their 2003 cap, is Carolina.

Yes, them again. Recall that the Panthers were the team that signed Stephen Davis last week, a running back the Texans also pursued.

Before the cap-friendly Davis signing, ESPN estimated Carolina's cap space at $8 million. Assuming Carolina isn't thinking of drafting a franchise quarterback with their first round pick, a trade for a franchise tackle makes a lot of sense for the team. If you wash out the first round money Carolina would owe to its pick at ninth overall, it may be a little easier to justify financially, too.

A few other teams could have interest in Pace. The Dolphins might, though if they are serious about pursuing Brian Griese, then they would need to restructure somebody else on the roster in order to even think about adding Pace.

Seattle is another possible destination if the Seahawks can't work out a long-term deal with their franchised tackle, Walter Jones. Talks were headed nowhere, and now, just like with the negotiations between the Rams and Pace, they have been suspended until July. It seems unlikely, however, that each team would be willing to swap their same headache.

Other teams with either the cap space (like the Vikings) or the need (like the Steelers) don't appear to be good fits on the surface. Toss in the Bucs, who are tight on cap space but are looking at re-signing Roman Oben, and the Chiefs, who own the Vermeil factor - he won a Super Bowl with Pace - and may be willing to trade John Tait, but both are longshots, too.

Don't expect the Texans to make a trade for a while. The only thing that could press the issue of a trade is if the Rams are set in getting Houston's first rounder this year. It wouldn't surprise me if Casserly had an offer on the table by draft day, one he could pull the trigger on if Charles Rogers and/or Terrell Suggs is gone by the third pick.

So how does Houston's incumbent franchise tackle, Tony Boselli, figure into this equation? Wasn't he supposed to be the answer at left tackle anyway? Well, yes, and the Texans still remain optimistic that he'll be ready for the season.

That's at least what the team is telling anybody who asks. Off record, Houston's front office bean counters might say otherwise in light of the restructuring of Boselli's contract in February.

Boselli's 2003 cap hit is now only $3.705 million, which is about half of what it was previously. There are additional incentives if he does in fact play this fall, but if the Texans cut him after the 2003 season, then they only take a cap hit of $3.05 million in 2004.

Boselli probably agreed to the restructuring because he really thinks he can return this year. Regardless of whether he can or can't, he could be gone in another year either way, making him less of an obstacle for the Texans should they pursue Pace in a trade and a long-term deal.

And how's this for David Carr's dream scenario in 2003: A healthy Boselli at one end of the offensive line and a primo Pace at the other? For a player who ate more grass than Bevo last year, he may never get his pants dirty all season.

Keith Weiland counts his lucky stars that he has yet to receive a franchise tag

Tailgate
03-14-2005, 09:58 PM
Yeah.... seems like ages ago.

I guess the difference between that and this... is that article actually admits its probably a ploy straight from the start.

This scenario has gone as far as a vist with true negotiations. Could end up the same... but this one is a bit more serious. IMO

texansfan88
03-14-2005, 09:58 PM
According to Berman, Ram's aren't willing to trade him

MojoX
03-14-2005, 10:02 PM
According to Berman, Ram's aren't willing to trade him
Well, guess the action in the draft forum an pick back up now. :)

AndreJ
03-14-2005, 10:04 PM
According to Berman, Ram's aren't willing to trade him

Link, TV Show?....Date....... give us something.

GotMojo80
03-14-2005, 10:04 PM
Well, guess the action in the draft forum an pick back up now. :)
would of been horrible for all that talk over the #1 pick to go to waste lol.

Texan Gal 312
03-14-2005, 10:07 PM
Wand 12.5 sacks, 1 false start, 2 holds
Pitts 6 sacks, 7 false starts, 3 holds
McKinney, 4 sacks, 0 false starts, 0 holds
Weigert 4.5 sacks, 2 false starts, 0 holds
Wade 6 sacks, 3 false starts, 0 holds

Spears 2 sacks, 1 false start, 0 holds
Weary 0 sacks, 1 false start, 0 holds
Brown 1.75 sacks, 3 false starts, 1 hold

But just who did they give the sack to when the defensive end was forced outside and what should have been well past the quarterback but got the sack when the quarterback could not step up into the pocket.
Carr was continously flushed outside the pocket by an inside rush.
Sometimes stats don't show the entire picture.

texansfan88
03-14-2005, 10:08 PM
Link, TV Show?....Date....... give us something.
Just was on Fox 26 sports...that's why I told everyone to watch it earlier in the night

Vinny
03-14-2005, 10:12 PM
All they gave us on Fox sports was info we already knew along with a short little interview with Pace saying he wants a long term contract that he has not been able to get from the Rams.

...and yes, he has a big melon head. I wonder if we stock size humongous helmets?

Tailgate
03-14-2005, 10:13 PM
All they gave us on Fox sports was info we already knew along with a short little interview with Pace saying he wants a long term contract that he has not been able to get from the Rams.


So FOX didnt difinitively say that there WONT be a trade.....correct?

texansfan88
03-14-2005, 10:15 PM
All they gave us on Fox sports was info we already knew along with a short little interview with Pace saying he wants a long term contract that he has not been able to get from the Rams.

...and yes, he has a big melon head. I wonder if we stock size humongous helmets?
you must have missed right before the interview with Pace's agent, Berman said that the Rams have told the local Fox station in St. Louis that they had a large offer on the table and wont trade him

AndreJ
03-14-2005, 10:15 PM
All they gave us on Fox sports was info we already knew along with a short little interview with Pace saying he wants a long term contract that he has not been able to get from the Rams.

...and yes, he has a big melon head. I wonder if we stock size humongous helmets?

LoL, i read it the first time and then i guess you came back and added that...pretty random but funny as hell, Hey evrybody Vinny made a funny :thumbup

Vinny
03-14-2005, 10:16 PM
So FOX didnt difinitively say that there WONT be a trade.....correct?They repeated the Rams stance that they want two first rounders as per the F-tag, and gave no new news on that front. This was common knowledge as far as I knew. Orlando stated that he has tried to get a long term deal and that is why he is in Houston. They said the sticking point is not signing Pace...but the Rams compensation. I suspect we will have an answer tomorrow.

infantrycak
03-14-2005, 10:17 PM
But just who did they give the sack to when the defensive end was forced outside and what should have been well past the quarterback but got the sack when the quarterback could not step up into the pocket.
Carr was continously flushed outside the pocket by an inside rush.
Sometimes stats don't show the entire picture.

I was answering someone's request for the stats. But you are correct, Wand and Wade both got hit with sacks in there that were a result of Carr not having a pocket to step up into. Signing Pace wouldn't solve that problem.

Vinny
03-14-2005, 10:18 PM
you must have missed right before the interview with Pace's agent, Berman said that the Rams have told the local Fox station in St. Louis that they had a large offer on the table and wont trade himI saw it. We already knew they had offers on the table to Pace. When you negotiate you always posture with ideal starting points so I took the comment to mean nothing more than they desire the Texans to make them a big offer.

Tailgate
03-14-2005, 10:19 PM
They repeated the Rams stance that they want two first rounders as per the F-tag, and gave no new news on that front. This was common knowledge as far as I knew. Orlando stated that he has tried to get a long term deal and that is why he is in Houston. They said the sticking point is not signing Pace...but the Rams compensation. I suspect we will have an answer tomorrow.

What they want... and what they are willing to take in the end could be two different things. Unless they have just come out and said... there will be no trade period. So then it woudl be 2 first rounders or nothing....meaning the deal is dead.

Vinny
03-14-2005, 10:21 PM
I didn't get that impression at all. Some may have. We will find out soon enough.

Tailgate
03-14-2005, 10:25 PM
Why cant we just give them #13, Sharper and call it a day?? If only it were that easy.

The next 2 day should be interesting.

Team-Sport
03-14-2005, 10:27 PM
What they want... and what they are willing to take in the end could be two different things. Unless they have just come out and said... there will be no trade period. So then it woudl be 2 first rounders or nothing....meaning the deal is dead.The Rams want 2 1st Rounders or Equivalent. So Far, its been this year's #13 Pick and friggin bones, IMO.

Honoring Earl 34
03-14-2005, 10:28 PM
:thumbup If the trade does go thru , it'll take some of the fun out of the draft . Just think no 1st round pick .

RTP2110
03-14-2005, 10:32 PM
:thumbup If the trade does go thru , it'll take some of the fun out of the draft . Just think no 1st round pick .

Yea but it will add tons of fun to next season!!

done88
03-14-2005, 10:49 PM
FOX sports south west reports Pace he will sign with the Texans.
Just saw it before the commerical of the Rockets game.

dirty steve
03-14-2005, 10:49 PM
not sure if it has been said, bob allen reported that if it went down, it would be at the owner's meetings next week or right before the draft.

Team-Sport
03-14-2005, 10:49 PM
One thing I must say in looking at other teams message boards when we hear this kind of stuff is that this board is MUCH, MUCH better than most other team message boards I have seen. Have you checked out the Rams message board? I get a headache just looking at it!

Good job by Vinny and the gang!I'm jealous of your forum here, for sure. Good Moderation. And you Texans Fans seem almost too nice. :thumbup

dirty steve
03-14-2005, 10:50 PM
you haven't seen jaguar troll.

Team-Sport
03-14-2005, 11:00 PM
you haven't seen jaguar troll.We have LOTS of Trolls at Rams Talk. We have several Warnerites (former Rams Fans) that now Hate the Rams for cutting Kurt Warner loose. They Hate Marc Bulger for replacing Warner and participating in Rams Wins. They've already penciled in two losses to the Cardinals, just because they got Warner.

Be thankful you have Good Moderators.

TexanExile
03-14-2005, 11:02 PM
NFL Total Access discussed this for a couple of minutes tonight...Adam Schefter seemed to be on the same page as the other media sources saying it's just up to compensation to the Rams now.

Wow. Didn't see this coming, but I like the move--in theory. By the way, NO player in the NFL is worth losing two #1 picks over. Ask Nick Saban how he's feeling about trying to rebuild the Dolphins after Ricky Williams made that whole deal blow up. Even WITH Ricky that team's suffered from bad draft moves and a fairly frequent lack of ANY first round pick. That sort of stance is nothing but posturing.

This is potentially soooo much better than some of the other moves this offseason. Very nice to see Houston in a "smart" context in the FA game, rather than just continuing a new annual tradition of overpaying another Dolphin in free agency.

(Easy now, just kidding...I actually liked the Wade pickup.)

SESupergenius
03-14-2005, 11:03 PM
it would be interesting too if we signed Pace......we play the Rams this year at home.

RiotCommander
03-14-2005, 11:10 PM
So much for the Texans not making much of a splash this year in FA. If Orlando Pace isn't a big sign I don't know what is. Not that I'm complaining, I didn't really like any of our options at #13. Also, the chances of DJ falling that far are slim to nill.


Assuming we actually get Pace I hope we focus on the D-line in the draft. I know we resigned a lot of our line already, but most of those guys seem to spend more then half the season on IR.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-14-2005, 11:15 PM
So much for the Texans not making much of a splash this year in FA. If Orlando Pace isn't a big sign I don't know what is. Not that I'm complaining, I didn't really like any of our options at #13. Also, the chances of DJ falling that far are slim to nill.




The Texans FO is just full of surprises.

TexansTrueFan
03-14-2005, 11:53 PM
orlando pace would be a nice pick up, would help our passing game and would help D.D !!!!

keyfro
03-15-2005, 12:09 AM
orlando pace is 29 years old...he's one of the top 3 tackles in the game today depending on where you see him against walter jones, and ogden...carr has been stumped by not having a LT blocking for him since he came to us...if we were able to bring in Pace he would be the only person i see worth the two 1st rounders because this guy isn't making yards he's helping insure that the three main guys who do are safe...giving carr more time to make the right throw so that johnson is lead perfectly and DD has the running room needed to gain over 1200 yds every season...i would like this trade...yeah it makes the draft less interesting for us but...it makes the season that much more fun to watch

ramsman34
03-15-2005, 12:17 AM
Remember, offense scores points but defense gets you to the bowl.

Really, 1999, SB34 ring a bell.

The RAMS were ALL offense, the D just had to show up.

This deal will cost you a lot more than Sharper (who the RAMS don't really need) and your #1 this year.

It will take your #1 and multiple other picks and or players.

There are ZERO LT's available either in FA or the draft that are pro bowl players.

jacquescas
03-15-2005, 12:18 AM
i dont think we will end up giving the Rams 2 first rounders, because they have til just wednesday to sign him to a long term deal, time is going to press them into taking less.

jacquescas
03-15-2005, 12:19 AM
i see us giving up a first a 3rd maybe Wand. We are going to finish with 2 first day picks.

this draft day with tivo i can start 10 hours late.

Rovator
03-15-2005, 12:19 AM
Can they really get 2 first rounders for him? TO and Corey Dillon were traded for 2nd rounders, I can't see Pace being worth that much more. I'd definantly give up a 1st and 3rd though since a player drafted at 13 probably has a 5% chance of being as good as Pace is.

beerlover
03-15-2005, 12:23 AM
I wouldn't mind offering two #1's for Pace, but in 06 & 08. hopefully by then the Texans will be contenders (with both Pace & this years #1 from the 13th pick).

D-ReK
03-15-2005, 12:26 AM
I may have misheard, but on Fox SouthWest Sports Report, they said our offer was our first and both thirds...

Rovator
03-15-2005, 12:27 AM
They said we have a 1st round and 2 3rd round picks to work with, not that it was our offer.

Holden135
03-15-2005, 12:27 AM
just wondering, would the deal be a definite first rounder this year or could it be for future considerations? I think we kinda need another first rounder even if we get orlando. A pass rushing d-lineman would do us good and any future first round picks hopefully and probobly would not be as high as a first round pick as high as 13.

jacquescas
03-15-2005, 12:28 AM
i think the Rams are smart enough to know a first rounder next year from us will be alot lower. They want the 13 pick in this draft.

D-ReK
03-15-2005, 12:30 AM
They said we have a 1st round and 2 3rd round picks to work with, not that it was our offer.

Cool...I appreciate the correction...Guess I did hear it wrong...

Vinny
03-15-2005, 01:05 AM
Houston makes an offer to Pace
By Jim Thomas
Of the Post-Dispatch
03/14/2005

Not all the "i's" are dotted, or "t's" crossed. But offensive tackle Orlando Pace has a contract offer from the Houston Texans, and according to sources familiar with the negotiations, it's one that is preferable to the current contract on the table from the Rams.

So what happens next?

"The ball is really in St. Louis' court as far as what they want to do, and the decision they want to make," Pace told the Houston Chronicle on Monday during his visit with Texans officials. "We'll see here in the next 24 hours or so."

The Rams have until 3 p.m. Wednesday to sign Pace to a multi-year contract offer. At that point, a four-month negotiating blackout begins for the Rams and Pace. And that would mean another spring without Pace attending the team's offseason conditioning program - which starts March 21 - no minicamps and no training camp for the third consecutive year.

Pace characterized negotiations with the Rams as being "at a standstill."
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/rams/story/78509700493127B686256FC5001F2056?OpenDocument

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 01:05 AM
I dont know if I heard this wrong or what, but I just heard on Fox Sports that Pace and the Texans have already agreed in principle and their just trying to figure out what exactly their gonna give for him.

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 01:06 AM
Heh vinny beat me to it.

DoCt3rJ
03-15-2005, 01:07 AM
Well, theres our pass protection =) Now..... for second round, who do we pick :p

Grid
03-15-2005, 01:09 AM
well all this means is that we have talked to Pace and came to an agreement on a contract.. so.. basicly we have completed the easy part. now we have to go back to the rams and say "what do you want for him".. which happens to be "your everlasting soul"

ThaShark316
03-15-2005, 01:49 AM
Well, theres our pass protection =) Now..... for second round, who do we pick :p


David Baas OR some WR like Chris Henry. :thumbup


EDIT...ONLY 7 people looking at this thread? :shocked Who would have thunk it.... :hmmm:

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-15-2005, 03:43 AM
Really, 1999, SB34 ring a bell.

The RAMS were ALL offense, the D just had to show up.

This deal will cost you a lot more than Sharper (who the RAMS don't really need) and your #1 this year.

It will take your #1 and multiple other picks and or players.

There are ZERO LT's available either in FA or the draft that are pro bowl players.





The Rams had the 8th ranked defense in the NFL that season.

outofhnd
03-15-2005, 04:15 AM
I hate the Zone Blocking scheme myself I think it ends up with missed blocks vs. knowing who you are going to block before the ball is even snapped.

Pros of Orlando
1. Gifted Tackle who at close to 30 dare I say may be maturing by actually trying to get a deal done.

2. Solidify the left side for atleast 3 years or more.

3. Add a little more attitude to our O-Line

Cons

1. To my knowledge has not played in a Zone blocking scheme which means he is on a learning curve the moment he is signed.

2. The deal is cutting it WAY too close to the blackout deadline and may not be worked out.

3. At 30 needs to change his workout regimen otherwise as he ages his abilities are going to plummet faster than if he were to dedicate himself to conditioning

texansfan88
03-15-2005, 07:18 PM
boy do i feel stupid for thinking pace wanted to play here