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Section516
07-10-2010, 12:55 PM
In looking at Gary Kubiak's current situation with the Houston Texans, I cannot help but think back to the case of former Pittsburgh Steelers coach Bill Austin.

Austin came to Pittsburgh in 1966 with a seemingly perfect résumé. He was a first-round draft choice who spent much of his career playing under the tutelage of Vince Lombardi on New York's dynasty teams of the 1950s. He performed so well that Giants coach Jim Lee Howell called him the finest offensive guard in the league.

Austin moved on from there to coach the Green Bay Packers' offensive line under Lombardi. He did such a superb job that Pittsburgh owner Art Rooney Sr. said he never received a better recommendation than the one Lombardi gave him regarding Austin.

Those accomplishments spoke well for what Austin learned while working for maybe the greatest coach in NFL history, but they also should have passed along a bit of a warning.

Austin picked up a lot of good habits from Lombardi -- but he also picked up some of his negative traits. He leaned too heavily on Lombardi's famous fire-and-brimstone, kick-the-team-in-the-tail motivational techniques, and his players eventually tuned him out because of it. It was said to be one of the main reasons Austin went 11-28-3 in his three seasons as the Steelers' coach.

Kubiak looks as if he could be in much the same boat in what he learned from Mike Shanahan.

Kubiak's success with the Houston offense proves he has been able to implement Shanahan's brilliant play-calling methods effectively, but he might have picked up some of Shanahan's deficiencies when dealing with certain types of players.

For example, back in 2003, Ashley Lelie showed some instances of a lack of on-field toughness that caused him to miss more than a few passes. Shanahan and his staff pushed Lelie to get over this, and he responded by stepping his game up and posting a 10.0 YPA in 2004, a total that was seventh-best in the league.

That success story wasn't enough for Shanahan. To quote Scientific Football 2006:

Lelie is one of the best deep threats in the league but Shanahan has it in his mind that he should run medium and short routes as well as he does deep ones. Lelie either can't or won't do that and Shanahan is simply never going to stop expecting him to do it. Shanahan is so single-minded in this pursuit that he will push, cajole, demote and eventually bench Lelie if he doesn't improve in these areas.

That is exactly what happened. Shanahan stayed on Lelie's case constantly, and it eventually led to Lelie's performance dropping back to unacceptable levels. The Broncos ended up having to trade him for much less than they what they could have traded him for before Shanahan lost patience with Lelie's limitations.

This wasn't the only case in which Shanahan's high expectations cost Denver. Deltha O'Neal posted nine interceptions in 2001 and looked like an up-and-coming star cornerback, but Shanahan was so unwilling to accept weaknesses in O'Neal's game that he eventually ended up moving him to wide receiver. One could also add the cases of Tatum Bell and Jake Plummer to this list.

Kubiak might be making the same type of mistake in the case of Amobi Okoye. Okoye isn't giving the Texans the pass rush they want (as Paul Kuharsky notes within this blog entry), and the Houston coaching staff has said it is running out of patience with him because of it.

Although pushing Okoye to improve that part of his game is understandable, Kubiak should be certain to keep in mind what the defensive tackle brings to the table against the run.

Okoye drew a double-team on running plays at his POA (point of attack) 56.4 percent of the time last year, a rate that was much higher than that of any other Texans defensive lineman (Shaun Cody was closest with a 43.1 percent double-team rate).

That is impressive enough, but its real value is seen when it is contrasted with the percentages of some other top-notch defensive linemen. Vince Wilfork and Casey Hampton -- Pro Bowl nose tackles for the New England Patriots and Steelers, respectively -- saw double-team rates of 50.5 percent and 56.4 percent. Washington Redskins star Albert Haynesworth posted a 40.5 percent total in this metric. Jason Ferguson of the Miami Dolphins notched a 49.2 percent mark. Even the New York Jets' Kris Jenkins, maybe the most dominant run-stuffing lineman in the league, saw two blockers less often than Okoye (51.4 percent). Okoye's total more than holds its own against some of the biggest names in the league.

There is certainly little doubt that Okoye hasn't met expectations when it comes to rushing the passer or that Kubiak should do all he can to correct this, but the coach's true test will come if Okoye doesn't show significant improvement here.

If that happens, and Kubiak finds a way to keep one of the best double-team run draws in the NFL in his regular defensive line rotation, it will prove he didn't pick up this bad habit from Shanahan.

But if Kubiak takes on Shanahan's ability to mimic Don Quixote when it comes to players with limitations, it could end up costing him one of the cogs of a run defense that could use all the quality players it can find.

KC Joyner
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=5361726

Maddict5
07-10-2010, 01:10 PM
weak article. thank god i dont get 'insider'. it ignores so many facts about the amobi situation namely that amobi wants to play lighter, the possible related injuries amobi has had by raising his weight

Lucky
07-10-2010, 01:32 PM
One can think up a myriad of possible Kubiak criticisms. Being too tough on Amobi Okoye isn't one of them.

False Start
07-10-2010, 01:37 PM
weak article. thank god i dont get 'insider'. it ignores so many facts about the amobi situation namely that amobi wants to play lighter, the possible related injuries amobi has had by raising his weight

One can think up a myriad of possible Kubiak criticisms. Being too tough on Amobi Okoye isn't one of them.

Exactly. This guy doesn't know the whole situation with Amobi, and is just making an outsiders observation with no real inside information.

drs23
07-10-2010, 01:39 PM
Great read. Thanks much for posting. Can't wait to see what happens.

Ckw
07-10-2010, 01:46 PM
Terrible article! I mean come on. He is using Ashley Lelie, Deltha O'Neal (one good season with Cincy but the rest have been meh), Tatum Bell, and to top it all off Jake Plummer as his basis for Shanahan being a bad coach? Uh, maybe those guys just underperformed and didn't show that they could really be quality NFL players?

dc_txtech
07-10-2010, 02:06 PM
Every DT he compared Amobi to plays in a 3-4 defense. I wonder what his numbers look like compared to other 4-3 DT's.

gg no re
07-10-2010, 02:08 PM
Terrible article! I mean come on. He is using Ashley Lelie, Deltha O'Neal (one good season with Cincy but the rest have been meh), Tatum Bell, and to top it all off Jake Plummer as his basis for Shanahan being a bad coach? Uh, maybe those guys just underperformed and didn't show that they could really be quality NFL players?
Hey, it's about time someone started talking about how overbearing Gary is.

Signed,

David Carr

thunderkyss
07-10-2010, 02:19 PM
Terrible article! I mean come on. He is using Ashley Lelie, Deltha O'Neal (one good season with Cincy but the rest have been meh), Tatum Bell, and to top it all off Jake Plummer as his basis for Shanahan being a bad coach? Uh, maybe those guys just underperformed and didn't show that they could really be quality NFL players?

QFT... I don't know if I want my coaches to be satisfied with players not delivering what they were drafted for. I trust Kubiak's ability to asses and grade players. If he thinks there is more in Jacoby Jones, Amobi Okoye, Steve Slaton, etc... I won't be satisfied with so-so performance from any of them.

Look at Schaub, Look at Andre, Look at OD, Demeco, Diles, Walter... the list goes on and on.

Yes, I believe Andre's game has gone beyond beast mode, because of Kubiak and his expectations. He was a beast when Kubiak got here, now he's a MONSTER.

thunderkyss
07-10-2010, 02:23 PM
Every DT he compared Amobi to plays in a 3-4 defense. I wonder what his numbers look like compared to other 4-3 DT's.

Those were the guys closest to Amobi's numbers. The 4-3 guys weren't even close.

Another important fact, about the number (whether you put any weight or significance to it) it's a percentage. Amobi played an huge number of snaps. I'd like to see how that number compares to the other DTs in the league. If he played a high number, and still commanded a high number of double-teams, and we were very successful on defense... I may have to rethink the value I place on his play.

Texans_Chick
07-10-2010, 03:10 PM
I had an email exchange with the author.

I believe his larger Kubiak criticism about handling Okoye completely misses the mark, and that he was unaware of some of the maturity/preparation issues Okoye has acknowledged publicly.

In any event, the double team information is interesting.

Aside from the article, I think it is interesting that Okoye has had the third most DT snaps in the league. Only 4 DTs had over 800 snaps during last season, and Okoye is one of them. And he did this with nagging injuries all season.

I thought that the point of Kollar's defensive lines was to rotate players and to keep them fresh. At least historically that was the deal. Maybe that is not as appealing when you have someone as old as Zgonina as a part of your rotation.

thunderkyss
07-10-2010, 03:22 PM
Aside from the article, I think it is interesting that Okoye has had the third most DT snaps in the league. Only 4 DTs had over 800 snaps during last season, and Okoye is one of them.

I knew he was in a small group of guys with the number of snaps he took. Nice to get a number and comparison on that.. Thanks.

Like I said, with this information, looking at our results, and factoring in the percentage of double-teams, I think our collective impression of Amobi's play, and his value to this team may need to be upgraded. Nagging injuries not-withstanding.


I thought that the point of Kollar's defensive lines was to rotate players and to keep them fresh.

This has been a concern of mine as well. Mario, Antonio, and Amobi... I honestly don't know how they do it. I'm sure the number of snaps they play has an affect on our ability to get stops in the 4th quarter.

Connor Barwin definitely helped as the season went on, which is why I believe they went after Mitchell in the 3rd, and have hopes for Sheppard as well.

I also think a bona-fide run game, keeping the defense off the field, will help as well.

76Texan
07-10-2010, 04:26 PM
I think those who look at Okoye as a first round bust are going overboard.

Look at how many DTs being drafted higher than him the last 9 years.
Add to that the number of lower first round draft picks that have more experience.
The total came up close to 30.

Look at the number of sakcs, QB hits and pressures from PFF.

Okoye's numbers are as followed:
2 sacks, 5 hits, 21 pressures,
26 tackles, 12 assists (from nfl.com)

They compared very decently with those of the top 16 NTs, DTs in the league.

dalemurphy
07-10-2010, 04:39 PM
One can think up a myriad of possible Kubiak criticisms. Being too tough on Amobi Okoye isn't one of them.

This may be the most accurate statement I have read in my entire life!

infantrycak
07-10-2010, 04:43 PM
Every DT he compared Amobi to plays in a 3-4 defense. I wonder what his numbers look like compared to other 4-3 DT's.

Haynesworth played in a 4-3 last year when the numbers were generated. Switching to a 3-4 this year is what has him pissed off. In any event, being the NT on a 3-4 should elevate rather than deflate the numbers.

JB
07-10-2010, 05:01 PM
Haynesworth played in a 4-3 last year when the numbers were generated. Switching to a 3-4 this year is what has him pissed off. In any event, being the NT on a 3-4 should elevate rather than deflate the numbers.

I think that is the point he was trying to make.

Rey
07-10-2010, 05:07 PM
I can't put a whole lot of stock into double team numbers...

A lot of times that has nothing at all to do with the player themselves and everything to do with what the play calls for that the offense is running...

Norg
07-10-2010, 06:13 PM
This would be the year amobi would be coming out of college right or having olny 1 year under his belt anywayz he young I think he will pick it up that's why the have gave him this much time

thunderkyss
07-10-2010, 06:51 PM
This would be the year amobi would be coming out of college right or having olny 1 year under his belt anywayz he young I think he will pick it up that's why the have gave him this much time

Either way, it is pure fantasy to have expected much more from Amobi Okoye than he has given. I mean, it's ok and expected for Kubiak to demand more, but the disrespect & loathing Amobi gets from the fans is unreal.

No DT has made the impact in his first three years that they expect Amobi to have made. None.

Darnell Docket, who may very well be the epitome of an inside terror had very similar stats to what Amobi put up. It wasn't until his 4th season, that he became the animal we see today.

Lucky
07-10-2010, 06:57 PM
No DT has made the impact in his first three years that they expect Amobi to have made. None.
These are the type of excuses once made for David Carr. I should know. I made these same arguments for Carr.

Rey
07-10-2010, 07:23 PM
Tommie Harris performed pretty well his first three years. Those two have a lot of similarities if you think about it.

The main difference between the two, though, is that Tommie came into the league playing for a defense that was already pretty good.

thunderkyss
07-10-2010, 07:23 PM
These are the type of excuses once made for David Carr. I should know. I made these same arguments for Carr.

Well, I was able to see David Carr for what he was, and was probably arguing against you then. I was right about David Carr, not because I was more adept at looking at stats, but because I watched him play, as I've watched Amobi play.

I'm not seeing that thing that dominates, that I saw in Mario when everyone was calling him a bust, or that thing we all easily see in Demeco & Cushing.

But like Diles, Amobi is solid in his play, never gives up, and shows flashes time and again. I don't understand why Amobi plays as many snaps as he does, I believe he would have performed better, had he not been used so often. I have to imagine a disappointment in the depth behind him is the cause of his over-use, but then why draft only one DT, and acquire none in free agency?

Rey
07-10-2010, 07:33 PM
... I believe he would have performed better, had he not been used so often. I have to imagine a disappointment in the depth behind him is the cause of his over-use, but then why draft only one DT, and acquire none in free agency?

I think in the Kollar/Amobi article it was mentioned (can't remember if it was the writers comments or something from Kollar) that Amobi has previously been given the benefit of the doubt because of his draft status, but if he doesn't continue to improve that will change this year.

I think that is the reason he has played as much as he has in the past.

CloakNNNdagger
07-10-2010, 07:46 PM
I think in the Kollar/Amobi article it was mentioned (can't remember if it was the writers comments or something from Kollar) that Amobi has previously been given the benefit of the doubt because of his draft status, but if he doesn't continue to improve that will change this year.

I think that is the reason he has played as much as he has in the past.

If he was battling as many injuries last year as they say he was, they may have just pulled another Dominic Davis and instead of tending to him in the name of long term future, squeezed every drop and used him up.

eriadoc
07-10-2010, 07:55 PM
If Amobi Ok0ye took 800+ snaps last season, it sounds like to me the coaches are giving him the opportunity to earn his #10 overall paycheck. If he doesn't perform up to the standards they expect (and he hasn't, thus far), then I have no problem with them (to paraphrase the author) cajoling, demoting, or cutting Ok0ye.

Goatcheese
07-10-2010, 08:09 PM
These are the type of excuses once made for David Carr. I should know. I made these same arguments for Carr.

Was Carr ever top 5 in any significant(positive) stat?

Okoye has been top 5 in QB pressures among DTs in back to back seasons. Last season he drew a crazy high number of double teams to keep DeMeco clean and let him make plays that he otherwise wouldn't with a 330lb lard butt in his face.

If Okoye keeps getting into the backfield the sacks will eventually work themselves out.

My biggest concerns with Okoye are injuries and commitment. A guy his age should not be having knee and back problems. A part of that may be his commitment to conditioning and I hope he's being serious when he says he's taking things more seriously now.

JB
07-10-2010, 08:22 PM
Was Carr ever top 5 in any significant(positive) stat?

Okoye has been top 5 in QB pressures among DTs in back to back seasons. Last season he drew a crazy high number of double teams to keep DeMeco clean and let him make plays that he otherwise wouldn't with a 330lb lard butt in his face.

If Okoye keeps getting into the backfield the sacks will eventually work themselves out.

My biggest concerns with Okoye are injuries and commitment. A guy his age should not be having knee and back problems. A part of that may be his commitment to conditioning and I hope he's being serious when he says he's taking things more seriously now.

agree, and he has said himself that he did not have the commitment to excel. I hope that he has learned and will dedicate himself to the principle of being the best that he can be. And I don't think that he has been as bad as many make out, because sacks are not everything. Not a lot of DT's put up big sack numbers.

Rey
07-10-2010, 09:15 PM
If he was battling as many injuries last year as they say he was, they may have just pulled another Dominic Davis and instead of tending to him in the name of long term future, squeezed every drop and used him up.


Hopefully that isn't the case...


:gun:

Lucky
07-10-2010, 11:10 PM
Was Carr ever top 5 in any significant(positive) stat?

Okoye has been top 5 in QB pressures among DTs in back to back seasons.
That's not even a real stat. It's made up by a web site manned by fans, like you and me. For all I know, you are handing out these numbers.

If Okoye was in the backfield as much as he's been given credit for, he would have made more plays. And/Or the players around him would have made more plays. That hasn't been the case. The Texans pass rush has been mediocre. Without Mario Williams, it has been virtually non-existent. Amobi Okoye has not been a difference maker. Yet. How long should we wait for that to happen?

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2010, 08:50 AM
Patience with players on this team seem to be misdirected MOST of the time.

steelbtexan
07-11-2010, 11:18 AM
OkOye stinks, numbers are for losers.

My eyes tell me OkOye struggled at the POA. OkOye is not dedicated to his craft. He has 3 yrs in the NFL and is just now discovering the work ethic that it takes to be a difference maker in the NFL?

Sorry I'm not buying, these are the same things that have been said about OkOye every offseason. This offseason isn't any diferent than last with regards to OkOye.

Time to stop all of the hype and prove it on the field.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if OkOye went on one of his Nigerian relief missions from Sept. through Feb.

Give me more guys with Cushings attitude than OKOyes any day. Steroids or not.

dalemurphy
07-11-2010, 11:22 AM
OkOye stinks, numbers are for losers.

My eyes tell me OkOye struggled at the POA. OkOye is not dedicated to his craft. He has 3 yrs in the NFL and is just now discovering the work ethic that it takes to be a difference maker in the NFL?
Sorry I'm not buying, these are the same things that have been said about OkOye every offseason. This offseason isn't any diferent than last with regards to OkOye.

Time to stop all of the hype and prove it on the field.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if OkOye went on one of his Nigerian relief missions from Sept. through Feb.

Give me more guys with Cushings attitude than OKOyes any day. Steroids or not.

Gotta agree... though I do hold out some hope that he will be improved this year. Certainly, though, I was baffled by the number of snaps he played the past two seasons... Someone explain why Deljuan was warming the bench behind Okoye last season!

steelbtexan
07-11-2010, 11:31 AM
Because Smithiak were trying to justify OkOyes draft selection. IMHO

Not playing guys based on merit rather than draft position can cause a myrid of problems on a team. Starting with a lackidasical attitude. Remember when OkOye said the team let up after they jumped out on the Colts in the 2nd game.

This is one of the sympoms of not playing guys based on production.

bckey
07-11-2010, 12:51 PM
Well, I was able to see David Carr for what he was, and was probably arguing against you then. I was right about David Carr, not because I was more adept at looking at stats, but because I watched him play, as I've watched Amobi play.

I'm not seeing that thing that dominates, that I saw in Mario when everyone was calling him a bust, or that thing we all easily see in Demeco & Cushing.

Go ahead and pat yourself on the back.

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2010, 01:36 PM
Asked AFTER the season, why they hid injuries:

Bellichick: I'm not interested in leaving excuses for my players' performances, I'm interested in protecting them from being targetted while mamed.

Kubiak: I'm not interest in protecting my players from being targetted while mamed, I'm interested in leaving excuses for my players' performances.

steelbtexan
07-11-2010, 07:29 PM
Asked AFTER the season, why they hid injuries:

Bellichick: I'm not interested in leaving excuses for my players' performances, I'm interested in protecting them from being targetted while mamed.

Kubiak: I'm not interest in protecting my players from being targetted while mamed, I'm interested in leaving excuses for my players' performances.

Wow, this should end this thread.

Truth hurts

Maddict5
07-11-2010, 07:51 PM
Asked AFTER the season, why they hid injuries:

Bellichick: I'm not interested in leaving excuses for my players' performances, I'm interested in protecting them from being targetted while mamed.

Kubiak: I'm not interest in protecting my players from being targetted while mamed, I'm interested in leaving excuses for my players' performances.

:rolleyes:

those are quotes are they? :rake:

TimeKiller
07-12-2010, 09:28 AM
So Okoye got blocked out of the way a whole lot?

Yup. That sounds about right.

badboy
07-12-2010, 10:02 AM
If Okoye is 3rd in snaps, to me that says a lot about ineffectiveness of our back ups. 56% of snaps he was double teamed leaving 49% he was not. Half of that, 24.5% should have allowed him to create a bit more of an obstacle for the opponent than I've seen. I understand the age, maturity thinggy but for me this has to be a much more significant year for the boy wonder. I am rooting for him.

Ryan
07-12-2010, 10:11 AM
Everyone Go Here Now


http://www.houstontexans.com/fanzone/2010TrainingCampTicketInformation.asp


Wrong thread. Oops.

threetoedpete
07-12-2010, 10:22 AM
Patience with players on this team seem to be misdirected MOST of the time.

I've been gripping about the loss of Cushing. One of the things that could off set the loss of Cushing is a great first four games out of Okye. The other thing that gives me hope is they have a cast which can be ....ambidextrous. They have the almost all the pieces in place to switch back and forth between snaps from the three four to the four three. We're going to have to surprise some folks out of the gate to reach 3-1. Kinda like what NY jets dod to us in the first game last season. Now whether or not Kubes wll take the gloves off and turn Bush and the defense loose ? Once a control freak always a contrll freak I always say.

HOU-TEX
07-12-2010, 10:36 AM
Meh, chalk another one up to offseason boredom. :clown:

Scooter
07-12-2010, 10:56 AM
If Okoye is 3rd in snaps, to me that says a lot about ineffectiveness of our back ups. 56% of snaps he was double teamed leaving 49% he was not. Half of that, 24.5% should have allowed him to create a bit more of an obstacle for the opponent than I've seen. I understand the age, maturity thinggy but for me this has to be a much more significant year for the boy wonder. I am rooting for him.

says more to me that we're not using our backups enough, especially from what's supposed to be a heavily rotated position. statistically (exceedingly so per snap) zgnonina was our best defensive tackle last season. folks here have been asking for more deljuan for a couple seasons now, and with earl mitchell added to the mix there's no reason we should lean so heavily on anyone unless they've got a most favorable matchup. by draft position or reputation or by the tape, okoye's been doing something to garner so much attention (and cody's done so little, where's his hate club?). if lighter, fresher, and above all healthier - okoye should easily put up the type of numbers that would make us grin.

badboy
07-12-2010, 12:08 PM
says more to me that we're not using our backups enough, especially from what's supposed to be a heavily rotated position. statistically (exceedingly so per snap) zgnonina was our best defensive tackle last season. folks here have been asking for more deljuan for a couple seasons now, and with earl mitchell added to the mix there's no reason we should lean so heavily on anyone unless they've got a most favorable matchup. by draft position or reputation or by the tape, okoye's been doing something to garner so much attention (and cody's done so little, where's his hate club?). if lighter, fresher, and above all healthier - okoye should easily put up the type of numbers that would make us grin.
The reason we are not seeing more play from our backups is they are not convincing coaches to start them despite the Deljuan fan club. Look, Kubes knew his job was on line last season and still stuck with his starters. Sometimes, I think we get caught up more with our favorites or our frustration with what we "see" and want changes. I agree with you on bolded.

TimeKiller
07-12-2010, 04:13 PM
(and cody's done so little, where's his hate club?). .

he's a journeyman who is the first guy out during rotations. he's not the major f/a signing (Smith, who IMO earned his checks), he's not the #1 overall pick (Williams, who basically WAS the pass rush for a couple years), he's not the top 10 pick with buttloads of that dirty, dirty p-word (Okoye, someone who has a lot of valid criticisms).

Hate? Nope. Dislike? Not really. Would he be sorely missed if he went MIA for a couple years? Not at all.

thunderkyss
07-12-2010, 06:18 PM
Tommie Harris performed pretty well his first three years. Those two have a lot of similarities if you think about it.

The main difference between the two, though, is that Tommie came into the league playing for a defense that was already pretty good.

Even so, how does Amobi's first 3 years stack up to Tommie's?

JB
07-12-2010, 06:40 PM
Even so, how does Amobi's first 3 years stack up to Tommie's?

YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
2004 CHI 16 43 28 15 2 3.5 1
2005 CHI 16 32 27 5 0 3.0 2
2006 CHI 12 28 22 6 1 5.0 0

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5539

YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
2007 HOU 16 32 23 9 0 5.5 1
2008 HOU 14 24 15 9 2 1.0 1
2009 HOU 16 38 26 12 3 1.5

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=10454


Remember that Harris was playing on a much, much better defense and had much better talent around him

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2010, 06:45 PM
Tommie Harris:

1st year-DROY

2nd year-ProBowl

3rd year-ProBowl


I certainly can see the similarities.:chef:

Rey
07-12-2010, 06:49 PM
Even so, how does Amobi's first 3 years stack up to Tommie's?

TH:

2004 - 43 combined tackles, 28 Solo, 15 asst., 3.5 sacks
2005 - 32 combined tackles, 27 Solo, 5 asst., 3.0 Sacks
2006 - 28 combined tackles, 22 solo, 6 asst, 5.0 Sacks

AO:

2007 - 32 combined tackles, 23 Solo, 9 asst, 5.5 Sacks
2008 - 24 combined tackles, 15 Solo, 9 asst, 1.0
2009 - 38 combined tackles, 26 Solo, 12 asst, 1.5

Not a staggering difference...Tommie performed a little better and was more consistent with the sacks. Also, his fourth year he exploded for 8.0 sacks...We'll see what Amobi does this year...

Both guys came into the leauge really young, and both guys are considered "speed over quickness" guys...

Amobi needs to improve tremendously, but he has preformed pretty well (numbers wise) compared to Harris. Especially if you consider that Amobi came into a defense that sucked and had no real direction.

Rey
07-12-2010, 06:49 PM
YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
2004 CHI 16 43 28 15 2 3.5 1
2005 CHI 16 32 27 5 0 3.0 2
2006 CHI 12 28 22 6 1 5.0 0

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5539

YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
2007 HOU 16 32 23 9 0 5.5 1
2008 HOU 14 24 15 9 2 1.0 1
2009 HOU 16 38 26 12 3 1.5

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=10454


Remember that Harris was playing on a much, much better defense and had much better talent around him

Tommie Harris:

1st year-DROY

2nd year-ProBowl

3rd year-ProBowl


I certainly can see the similarities.:chef:

I see you guys beat me to it.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2010, 06:56 PM
YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
2004 CHI 16 43 28 15 2 3.5 1
2005 CHI 16 32 27 5 0 3.0 2
2006 CHI 12 28 22 6 1 5.0 0

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5539

YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
2007 HOU 16 32 23 9 0 5.5 1
2008 HOU 14 24 15 9 2 1.0 1
2009 HOU 16 38 26 12 3 1.5

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=10454


Remember that Harris was playing on a much, much better defense and had much better talent around him

I don't know where espn got their stats, but I distinctly remember he had a career high 8 sacks in '07. And when he injured his hamstring in early 2006, the Bears' D went down the tubes from there.

JB
07-12-2010, 07:00 PM
I don't know where espn got their stats, but I distinctly remember he had a career high 8 sacks in '07. And when he injured his hamstring in early 2006, the Bears' D went down the tubes from there.

I only posted the first 3 years, because that was the comparison asked for. AO has not played his fourth yet.

thunderkyss
07-12-2010, 07:47 PM
Tommie Harris:

1st year-DROY

2nd year-ProBowl

3rd year-ProBowl


I certainly can see the similarities.:chef:

So what did TH do his rookie season, that Amobi did not?

b0ng
07-12-2010, 09:57 PM
Who would've thought that Gary Kubiak was not a defense minded coach.

Lucky
07-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Okoye's 1st 4 games as a pro - 4 sacks
Okoye's next 42 games as a pro - 4 sacks

The league adjusted to Amobi. Amobi has yet to adjust to the league.

Texan_Bill
07-12-2010, 10:32 PM
Was Carr ever top 5 in any significant(positive) stat?


Actually, yes. It pains me to say this, but he actually ranked fairly high in rushing for a QB for a season or two..


I feel so dirty, now. :gun:

Lucky
07-12-2010, 10:51 PM
Was Carr ever top 5 in any significant(positive) stat?

Actually, yes. It pains me to say this, but he actually ranked fairly high in rushing for a QB for a season or two..
Carr actually led the league in completion % in 2006. Which goes to show how meaningless stats are without context.

At least Carr had some actual stats. Okoye's stats are made up by internet fans. Like it or not, Okoye is Kubiak & Smith's David Carr. Gobs of playing time, but has never earned it.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2010, 11:37 PM
So what did TH do his rookie season, that Amobi did not?

Made his defense better, which at that time was pretty poor. He had the most sacks for a rookie on the Bears since Urlacher.

steelbtexan
07-13-2010, 12:21 AM
Tommie Harris:

1st year-DROY

2nd year-ProBowl

3rd year-ProBowl


I certainly can see the similarities.:chef:

Hopefully OkOye develops into more than a pimple on Tommie Harris a**.

thunderkyss
07-13-2010, 12:51 AM
Made his defense better, which at that time was pretty poor. He had the most sacks for a rookie on the Bears since Urlacher.

And Amobi had more sacks as a rookie.

Am I missing something?

I know there has got to be something that doesn't show up in the stats. But I don't watch the Bears, and didn't watch Tommie Harris as a rookie.

I just saw him today (I TiVo'd yesterday's NFL Replay) and he's a hoss. But he's going into his seventh year.

silvrhand
07-13-2010, 01:07 AM
Hmm..

I don't think Amobi's pass defense was so bad as him getting blown off the ball and drove down back into the LB's on several games that really made me nervous. There is a difference in getting blocked and consistently getting shoved back into the LB's and letting linemen release downfield into the secondary.

It's hard to tell with Amobi, IMHO we took a huge risk on drafting him as he was way too young to enter the league IMHO. How many of us at 19-20 year old can play on the DL/OL where most of the starters are not rookies.

Get the ()*)$(# kicked out of you is what happens, mentally and physically.

CloakNNNdagger
07-13-2010, 09:37 AM
And Amobi had more sacks as a rookie.

Am I missing something?

I know there has got to be something that doesn't show up in the stats. But I don't watch the Bears, and didn't watch Tommie Harris as a rookie.

I just saw him today (I TiVo'd yesterday's NFL Replay) and he's a hoss. But he's going into his seventh year.


When Tommie Harris was not on the field, his team suffered. When Okoye was not on the field...........................