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Brando
06-18-2010, 03:14 PM
6. Houston Texans: Despite putting Baltimore and Miami in the top five (mostly because of personnel and not necessarily execution), I canít harp on this enough: The most important objective in the NFL today is to keep the quarterback clean. Houston ranked eighth in the league last season despite the fact that the running game was mediocre and quarterback Matt Schaubís(notes) mobility was limited because of an ankle injury. Thereís not a household name in the bunch and offensive tackles Duane Brown(notes) and Eric Winston(notes) are both limited physically. Still, they donít let people touch Schaub and the running game could really improve with better running back play.

:thinking:


Yahoo (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-olinerankings061810)

jaayteetx
06-18-2010, 03:39 PM
Its amazing how a smart qb, who can make good decisions, makes an offensive line look good. Anybody care to wager that this very same offensive line would be called one of the worse if WHNSNBM was still under center? Until we get a better push on obvious running plays, I ain't drinking the koolaid.

MightyTExan
06-18-2010, 04:11 PM
Its amazing how a smart qb, who can make good decisions, makes an offensive line look good. Anybody care to wager that this very same offensive line would be called on of the worse if WHNSNBM was still under center? Until we get a better push on obvious running plays, I ain't drinking the koolaid.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wrpvFcHglFw/SsS5NglYOXI/AAAAAAAAA8c/3glMdH8nuuk/s320/nailed+it.jpg

TheRealJoker
06-18-2010, 04:16 PM
LOL @ calling out the OTs for their shortcomings when our interior OL has been the weakest link...

CloakNNNdagger
06-18-2010, 04:19 PM
LOL @ calling out the OTs for their shortcomings when our interior OL has been the weakest link...

Can you guess which one is Myers?

http://www.khanya.co.za/blogs/images/weak_link.jpg

gary
06-18-2010, 06:49 PM
Can you guess which one is Myers?

http://www.khanya.co.za/blogs/images/weak_link.jpg
None of the above.

Norg
06-18-2010, 07:17 PM
The hole o line needs to step it up on passing plAys yes we are week in the middle but brown or Winston didnt stop freeny and mathis from getting at schaub

JB
06-18-2010, 07:38 PM
The hole o line needs to step it up on passing plAys yes we are week in the middle but brown or Winston didnt stop freeny and mathis from getting at schaub

Actually, I believe the Texans were pretty high in fewest sacks allowed.

Maddict5
06-18-2010, 08:01 PM
Can you guess which one is Myers?

http://www.khanya.co.za/blogs/images/weak_link.jpg

:rolleyes:

i still lol at the myers hate in every thread over a couple bad plays when he was our most consistently good player last year

CloakNNNdagger
06-18-2010, 08:04 PM
:rolleyes:

i still lol at the myers hate in every thread over a couple bad plays when he was our most consistently good player last year

No hate, just no love in the Red Zone.

Maddict5
06-18-2010, 08:11 PM
No hate, just no love in the Red Zone.

definitely not where myers is at his best i agree but kasey is just as bad in that regard (and doesnt play near as well as myers otherwise) yet receives little criticism in comparison. the whole line is pretty poor in gact yet everyone acts like its just one guy

Goldensilence
06-18-2010, 08:28 PM
definitely not where myers is at his best i agree but kasey is just as bad in that regard (and doesnt play near as well as myers otherwise) yet receives little criticism in comparison. the whole line is pretty poor in gact yet everyone acts like its just one guy

Difference is Myers has been a starter while for the most part Studdard has been on the bench. Studdard hasn't been free from harsh criticism on the board as well.

I think it's like CnD pointed out; most people can recognize he does well in space and gets to the second level fine. It's just at those critical moments where we really need a push or him to at least hold the point of attack at center his weaknesses don't show, they are glaring.

littlecat
06-18-2010, 10:16 PM
:bravo:

littlecat
06-18-2010, 10:17 PM
Can you guess which one is Myers?

http://www.khanya.co.za/blogs/images/weak_link.jpg
Nobody know.

JB
06-18-2010, 10:24 PM
:bravo:

Bravo what?

Nobody know.

Nobody know what?


Really? Is that all you got? Really?

dude, you got to contribute more than that if you expect anyone to pay attention to you and check out your link. Take a look at how Roc Hoover, Stemp, and others roll.

You ain't got nothing right now.

Texan_Bill
06-18-2010, 10:50 PM
definitely not where myers is at his best i agree but kasey is just as bad in that regard (and doesnt play near as well as myers otherwise) yet receives little criticism in comparison. the whole line is pretty poor in gact yet everyone acts like its just one guy

Offensive line play starts at the center.... While I agree with many of your takes, Myers is weak and I hate to say that because his dad would occasionally post here and seemed like a cool cat.... At the end of the day, Chris was destroyed several times.. Litterally blown up....

76Texan
06-19-2010, 12:08 AM
Offensive line play starts at the center.... While I agree with many of your takes, Myers is weak and I hate to say that because his dad would occasionally post here and seemed like a cool cat.... At the end of the day, Chris was destroyed several times.. Litterally blown up....So was McKinney. And Flanagan, too.
So is Wade Smith.

Define "several times" like in 5 or 10? And show me the money! :slapfight:

76Texan
06-19-2010, 12:21 AM
And while we're on this subject, let me ask the "pro-Kubiak" thought of being able to go get that one tough yard:
"Why did the Colts hardly ever run up the middle on third and short? And when they do it, it would be against team without great presence at the nose or DT? Some people seem to think that Jeff Saturday is one heck of a center. So why did the Colts choose to do something else?"

Umm, let me guess, some HC & OC think that banging your head agaisnt the wall is not a good idea.

beerlover
06-19-2010, 12:25 AM
Schaub did one hell of a job getting rid of the ball often times before a would be sack, in fact seemed like he was running for his life alot. numbers just don't work like they do in baseball.

76Texan
06-19-2010, 12:38 AM
Schaub did one hell of a job getting rid of the ball often times before a would be sack, in fact seemed like he was running for his life alot. numbers just don't work like they do in baseball.

In the last four games of the season, Schaub did a very good job at that.
Before that, it was a give-some, take-some scenario.
Sometimes, MS would run for his life (usually due to pressure from the edges).
Sometimes, he would hold on to the ball too long and hurt the tackles with an unecessary sack allowed.
Sometimes, he did what a good QB should do: either get rid of the ball or get out of there and see if he can make something of it (something Kubiak had mentioned during OTA).

Carr Bombed
06-19-2010, 02:21 AM
:rolleyes:

i still lol at the myers hate in every thread over a couple bad plays when he was our most consistently good player last year

:rolleyes: "consistently getting pushed around", doesn't make you a "consistently good player".


Seriously, how can anybody think that Myers was our most consistently good player last season. If we had a legit starting center who could hold up against legit tackles in this league alot of the problems that we currently have with our Oline would disappear overnight.

Carr Bombed
06-19-2010, 02:23 AM
definitely not where myers is at his best i agree but kasey is just as bad in that regard (and doesnt play near as well as myers otherwise) yet receives little criticism in comparison. the whole line is pretty poor in gact yet everyone acts like its just one guy

:) what??? Studdard catches criticism all the time.

Maddict5
06-19-2010, 05:28 AM
:rolleyes: "consistently getting pushed around", doesn't make you a "consistently good player".


Seriously, how can anybody think that Myers was our most consistently good player last season. If we had a legit starting center who could hold up against legit tackles in this league alot of the problems that we currently have with our Oline would disappear overnight.

all the sites that actually chart every play say hes an above average center instead of just remembering a few highlight reel plays and writing him off as 'he sucks'.

:) what??? Studdard catches criticism all the time.

not nearly as much as myers. when anyone starts about the o-line weaknesses, it nearly always myers that gets mentioned

Maddict5
06-19-2010, 05:32 AM
And while we're on this subject, let me ask the "pro-Kubiak" thought of being able to go get that one tough yard:
"Why did the Colts hardly ever run up the middle on third and short? And when they do it, it would be against team without great presence at the nose or DT? Some people seem to think that Jeff Saturday is one heck of a center. So why did the Colts choose to do something else?"

Umm, let me guess, some HC & OC think that banging your head agaisnt the wall is not a good idea.

and thats why the only yr the colts have actually won it all is the year they were able to get the hard running yards (at the end of the baltimore game). more often than not, you will need it somewhere so im guessing kubiak is trying to condition that into them

HJam72
06-19-2010, 07:49 AM
Are talking about the O-Line again?--'cuz I just wanna say that Myers sucks. :)

Lucky
06-19-2010, 09:53 AM
all the sites that actually chart every play say hes an above average center...
How many of these sites are there? Because there have been discussions on this board on the dubious information produced by Pro Football Focus and The Football Scientist (KC Joyner).

I think you have to look at the results of the team. Matt Schaub has had relatively good protection over the past couple of seasons. Myers is part of that. At the same time, this team has struggled running the ball. Especially when a d-lineman covers up the center. Myers has strengths in that he's fairly mobile, technically sound, and smart. His weakness is that he's not very strong. That shows up against teams like the Jets, Ravens, Steelers, etc. Myers is what he is.

b0ng
06-19-2010, 11:08 AM
I just can't see how we can put our line up in the top 10 much less right outside of the top 5. Schaub had a ton of pressures and hits applied to him and there were plenty of times where if our receivers (Specifically AJ and OD) weren't so good he would've had a lot lower of a completion %. I do think the line will do better than this season than last, but to catapult them that high seems folly to me.

Also, Meyers is fairly weak, but having weak guards around the center is going to make him seem a hell of a lot worse. Studdard and Caldwell need to up their games considerably this year if we want to have any semblance of an inside run game, and the ability to stop really good DT's.

HJam72
06-19-2010, 11:44 AM
Speaking of DTs, I think our biggest problem is our D in the red zone.

Fox
06-19-2010, 11:55 AM
How does an OL that ranks 30th in yards per rush attempt deserve to be ranked 6th in the NFL?
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-rush-attempt

I can see the productivity in the passing game and athleticism demonstrated on screen plays compensating a bit for their inability to control the LOS on run downs, but not completely carrying the evaluation.

Clamp
06-19-2010, 12:10 PM
How many of these sites are there? Because there have been discussions on this board on the dubious information produced by Pro Football Focus and The Football Scientist (KC Joyner).

I think you have to look at the results of the team. Matt Schaub has had relatively good protection over the past couple of seasons. Myers is part of that. At the same time, this team has struggled running the ball. Especially when a d-lineman covers up the center. Myers has strengths in that he's fairly mobile, technically sound, and smart. His weakness is that he's not very strong. That shows up against teams like the Jets, Ravens, Steelers, etc. Myers is what he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiJ9lYyj4uQ

I agree that Myers has his strengths just like Lucky says. His main problem seems to be that while he is listed at 6'4'' 295, he doesn't play like it. Finesse is fine but sometimes you have to be able to beat a guy man on man or he will blow up a play completely. I know everyone on the team sucked in the first game last year when we played the jets, but every time i hear criticism of Myers this clip runs through my head bc i couldnt believe it when it happened and im afraid it will happen again and it might turn out worse next time. If this had happened on a run he would've be there to take the hand off from Matt himself or at least cause a fumble when the back tried to take it. Our system asks our linemen to be quick and able to move so smaller guys work well with that, but there has to be a balance between that and strength. Kris Jenkins is a beast and an unfair example but a starting center has to be able to hold a DT up by himself for at least 3 seconds to allow the play to develope. He wouldnt be asked to block the nose alone if it wasnt designed to be a quick release and he couldnt even give him that.
-----
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcqjClE7cuk&feature=related

I just saw this one, its the play where Jared Allen hit Shaub's knee. Duane Brown tried to run Allen around the QB, not the best move on a deep drop like he had but it worked out ok, but Myers was driven back into Shaub every step of his 5 step drop. Shaub actually had to side step around him to make the throw. Myers consistently gets beaten when the situation calls for him to drive his feet and power a guy.

CloakNNNdagger
06-19-2010, 12:15 PM
Speaking of DTs, I think our biggest problem is our D in the red zone.


Pretty scarey, but that seemed be the case.

In opponent percentage scoring once in the Red Zone (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-red-zone-scoring-pct), in 2009, the Texans ranked 30!

Opponents punched it in on us in about 65% of the time........1% more than in 2008

By contrast, our offense punched it in about 52% of the time (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct) (ranked 13)..........6% more than in 2008

painekiller
06-19-2010, 03:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiJ9lYyj4uQ

I know everyone on the team sucked in the first game last year when we played the jets, but every time i hear criticism of Myers this clip runs through my head bc i couldnt believe it when it happened and im afraid it will happen again and it might turn out worse next time.

If we are going to complain about the Hampton play, then we should also look at what Hampton did to what many here consider one of the best OC in the AFC Kevin Mawae, Titans v Jets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjjfuUDDDJA&feature=related). Hampton blew up most of the guys who tried to block him one on one, until he hurt his knee.

JB
06-19-2010, 03:28 PM
If we are going to complain about the Hampton play, then we should also look at what Hampton did to what many here consider one of the best OC in the AFC Kevin Mawae, Titans v Jets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjjfuUDDDJA&feature=related). Hampton blew up most of the guys who tried to block him one on one, until he hurt his knee.

I'm sure you typed Jenkins, but you have a malicious virus that automatically changes it...

And you are absolutely correct. There is not a center in the league who can block him one-on-one when it is an obvious pass play.

GuerillaBlack
06-19-2010, 10:09 PM
How does an OL that ranks 30th in yards per rush attempt deserve to be ranked 6th in the NFL?
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-rush-attempt

I can see the productivity in the passing game and athleticism demonstrated on screen plays compensating a bit for their inability to control the LOS on run downs, but not completely carrying the evaluation.

The RBs were sorry.

Maddict5
06-19-2010, 10:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiJ9lYyj4uQ

I agree that Myers has his strengths just like Lucky says. His main problem seems to be that while he is listed at 6'4'' 295, he doesn't play like it. Finesse is fine but sometimes you have to be able to beat a guy man on man or he will blow up a play completely. I know everyone on the team sucked in the first game last year when we played the jets, but every time i hear criticism of Myers this clip runs through my head bc i couldnt believe it when it happened and im afraid it will happen again and it might turn out worse next time. If this had happened on a run he would've be there to take the hand off from Matt himself or at least cause a fumble when the back tried to take it. Our system asks our linemen to be quick and able to move so smaller guys work well with that, but there has to be a balance between that and strength. Kris Jenkins is a beast and an unfair example but a starting center has to be able to hold a DT up by himself for at least 3 seconds to allow the play to develope. He wouldnt be asked to block the nose alone if it wasnt designed to be a quick release and he couldnt even give him that.
-----
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcqjClE7cuk&feature=related

I just saw this one, its the play where Jared Allen hit Shaub's knee. Duane Brown tried to run Allen around the QB, not the best move on a deep drop like he had but it worked out ok, but Myers was driven back into Shaub every step of his 5 step drop. Shaub actually had to side step around him to make the throw. Myers consistently gets beaten when the situation calls for him to drive his feet and power a guy.

1. BS. if schaub had time to drop back and rush a throw how do you figure jenkins wouldve been waiting to cause a fumble if it was a run play??
2.so you're saying its unfair to use kris jenkins as an example so you use the williams wall as the other corroborating 'evidence' that myers isnt good enough?


how about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zz6wQsvbXc

this isnt even the play where he blocked 3 guys on the same play but its the kind of key block that doesnt get noticed by 90% of the fans who only remember plays like the jenkins one. myers was part of the line that got slaton over 1200 yds in 08 so he can be part of an effective line. thats all im saying. yes he has size limitations (as do alot of centers) but his mobility and smartness help counteract this and it only gets exposed against elite nose tackles occasionally.

i just dont get the whole 'myers sucks & MUST be replaced' braintrust around here. obviously in a perfect world you'd want an elite guy at every position but that doesnt happen & myers is more than adequate at his position

76Texan
06-20-2010, 12:07 AM
1. BS. if schaub had time to drop back and rush a throw how do you figure jenkins wouldve been waiting to cause a fumble if it was a run play??
2.so you're saying its unfair to use kris jenkins as an example so you use the williams wall as the other corroborating 'evidence' that myers isnt good enough?


how about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zz6wQsvbXc

this isnt even the play where he blocked 3 guys on the same play but its the kind of key block that doesnt get noticed by 90% of the fans who only remember plays like the jenkins one. myers was part of the line that got slaton over 1200 yds in 08 so he can be part of an effective line. thats all im saying. yes he has size limitations (as do alot of centers) but his mobility and smartness help counteract this and it only gets exposed against elite nose tackles occasionally.

i just dont get the whole 'myers sucks & MUST be replaced' braintrust around here. obviously in a perfect world you'd want an elite guy at every position but that doesnt happen & myers is more than adequate at his position
Well, CB who had disagreed with me a million time before had said that I talk like a politician when I said Myers was the most EFFICIENT O-linemen OVERALL that the Texans had. But I'm not Obama.

I am concerned with (first) how we score points, and (second) how we move the ball to gain field advantage (and that include bad exchange to other penalties.)

The more you contribute to the team scoring point is what matters most to me. And next, do not hinder your team effort to move the ball.

I've seen Flanagan at his ugliest form, but he threw his body around... to many, I'm sure he looked like a rag doll... but to me, the guy was doing his best to gain every inch. And he played through many bruised ribs, like Myers did, something them guys never use as an excuse, and neither do I.
But I see guys making effort (like you see a guy on the basketball court diving for a loose ball), those are the kind of warriors I'd love to take to war!

Fox
06-20-2010, 12:16 AM
The RBs were sorry.

I'll give ya that the RB's didn't help them out much, but there weren't gaping holes for them to run through either. I'd like to see an argument for them being a good run blocking unit last year.

76Texan
06-20-2010, 12:38 AM
Or when I learned that Duane Brown hurt his knee in the second game against the Colts, I ddin't know how bad it was... until the off-season, when I had more time to digest all the plays where I can see that he was practically playing on one leg in one game... but he played through it and more.
Butler finally had to relieve him in a later game (against the Rams in the second half).

Or when I watched Winston (due to his short arms) had to take all of those hand punches to the chest from Kampman (Packers) in the year before last.
Hey, whatever... injury or a physical shortcoming... as long as they fight hard... taking "one" or (more realistically ) "many" for the team and "not hurting the team"... those are the guys I want.

What fun is it when you have all the best players in the universe and win a game? Anti-climatic, I'd say!

Texan_Bill
06-20-2010, 12:57 AM
So was McKinney. And Flanagan, too.
So is Wade Smith.

Define "several times" like in 5 or 10? And show me the money! :slapfight:

McKinney was a natural guard pressed into playing a center.... That said, Steve did a helluva lot better at center than Myers...


Have you played any of those positions?? I have, in fact I've played all five...

76Texan
06-20-2010, 02:16 AM
McKinney was a natural guard pressed into playing a center.... That said, Steve did a helluva lot better at center than Myers...


Have you played any of those positions?? I have, in fact I've played all five...

With all due respect my dear friend, you know I don't play any of those positions, or maybe "you plain forgotten" THAT I have no football background!
Regardless, what does that have anything to do with our understanding of the game. Hey, last time I heard, at least one of the Texans coaches never play a certain position...........

Oh yeah McKinney did so well he and Flanagan had to battle through it all, whoever was healthy would play. And heck, I was pretty much the lone voice (or among the minority) in saying that it wasn't the center's fault (whether it was Mckinney or Flanagan) that our offense sucked!

I know the drill, my friend... I may have Alzheimer, but I tend to remember things pertaining to football. I can still remember who was "positive" on Chris White (guy is pretty upstanding in this community and in my thinking - I never dismished the thought; in fact I went back and check on the tapes, even back then. )

And there was no Chris Meyers on the Texan team. at the time.

Hey, I said I understood the "football econonomy" back then when we didn't resign Flanagan at some $3M, but I totally disagreed with not resigning McKinney at some $1M something (excuse me, but you know I'm really the not the kind of guy who's into the business side of football).

I do "value" those guys, I still have my notes here somewhere comparing their performances... If you don't know that I'm that crazy then now you do!

TB, you will not tell me that I have not observed the plays of the guys we had at Center... or at any position... because I did... Even if my opinions are different, you know you can be proud of your friend... due to the hard work of watching tapes! :choke:

Carr Bombed
06-20-2010, 05:45 AM
all the sites that actually chart every play say hes an above average center instead of just remembering a few highlight reel plays and writing him off as 'he sucks'.



not nearly as much as myers. when anyone starts about the o-line weaknesses, it nearly always myers that gets mentioned

LOL, which sites?.......the ones that nobody holds any weight in?

I don't give a crap what some stat site says, I know what I see......and what I see is Chris Myers suckitude..and after 3 seasons I'm tired of watching it. Seriously...please stop claiming that this guy has been our best Olineman, because he hasn't been and he has cost us chances at a playoff berth. :rolleyes:

LOL, Chris Myers sucks and is one of the absolute worst starting centers in the league...please spare me some B.S. site who says he's not. (like this link that says that the Texans have the 6th best line...what a joke that is) I watch the guy play week in and week out. I can identify suck when I see it and Chris Myers....SUCKS!

Again like I said over a year ago. This team will never make the playoffs with Chris Myers as our starting center. Now feel free to bookmark/save this post. As long as Chris (the flying nun) Myers is our starting center, the Texans will never make the playoffs.

jaayteetx
06-20-2010, 08:35 AM
LOL, which sites?.......the ones that nobody holds any weight in?

I don't give a crap what some stat site says, I know what I see......and what I see is Chris Myers suckitude..and after 3 seasons I'm tired of watching it. Seriously...please stop claiming that this guy has been our best Olineman, because he hasn't been and he has cost us chances at a playoff berth. :rolleyes:

LOL, Chris Myers sucks and is one of the absolute worst starting centers in the league...please spare me some B.S. site who says he's not. (like this link that says that the Texans have the 6th best line...what a joke that is) I watch the guy play week in and week out. I can identify suck when I see it and Chris Myers....SUCKS!

Again like I said over a year ago. This team will never make the playoffs with Chris Myers as our starting center. Now feel free to bookmark/save this post. As long as Chris (the flying nun) Myers is our starting center, the Texans will never make the playoffs.

Really? I'm not a huge fan of the guy by any stretch of the imagination but this team was a couple of lay down jobs by other teams last year from making the playoffs. I don't think its that big of a stretch they can make it this year, even with Myers at center.

infantrycak
06-20-2010, 09:42 AM
Or when I watched Winston (due to his short arms) had to take all of those hand punches to the chest from Kampman (Packers) in the year before last.

I'm sorry this is just a combine/draft geek thing to say. The OL and DL rarely engage at full arm extension. Winston's arms are irrelevant other than in their strength. What he gets beat on is speed rushers like Mathis and one inch longer arms wouldn't solve that problem.

Now feel free to bookmark/save this post. As long as Chris (the flying nun) Myers is our starting center, the Texans will never make the playoffs.

Well that's just silly. If Kris Brown had hit to the average he did the two years previously the Texans would have been in the playoffs with Myers. Great hyperbole to make a point I suppose but inaccurate.

GuerillaBlack
06-20-2010, 10:11 AM
I'll give ya that the RB's didn't help them out much, but there weren't gaping holes for them to run through either. I'd like to see an argument for them being a good run blocking unit last year.

Well, we saw what happened when Arian Foster was back there, who did MUCH better than expected. I think our O-Line is fine, except for center and some depth to the interior.

gary
06-20-2010, 12:12 PM
I'd like to see Caldwell play center like he did for the Tide.

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 12:39 PM
No hate, just no love in the Red Zone.

I can live with that.

My question, concerning the red zone, is why did we continually try to do what we aren't good at. Inside Zone doesn't work very well on a short field, we don't have the personnel to run power I.

Few teams ran misdirection as effectively as we did, and we were fairly efficient when stretching to the right.

I understand we have to run it up the middle on the goal line, to avoid being predictable. I don't understand why we predictably tried to run it up the middle.

barrett
06-20-2010, 12:43 PM
Winston mentioned in his shutdown corner interview (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-Shutdown-Corner-Interview-Eric-Winston-Par?urn=nfl,249336) the importance of guys playing together all season. He talked about the fact that the Texans run offense was much improved in the second half of the season.

When you juggle players in as we did last year - the zone scheme, more than anything else, is all about playing together and being a part of it. That's something I have learned in the last couple of years; even though it's a great system, I have to understand not just who I have and what combination I have, but what are we really trying to do here? Toward the end of the year, the new guys started to understand that even if the ball was going the other way, they were really still the point of attack and they had to start getting some push. As a result, I think you saw our run stats go up toward the end of the year, more where we like it.

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 12:51 PM
Schaub did one hell of a job getting rid of the ball often times before a would be sack, in fact seemed like he was running for his life alot. numbers just don't work like they do in baseball.

Tell me again why Peyton doesn't get sacked?

I think that's part of the game.
That's why you need a QB who can take a lick, and come back looking to pop somebody in the mouth.

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 12:54 PM
all the sites that actually chart every play say hes an above average center instead of just remembering a few highlight reel plays and writing him off as 'he sucks'.



not nearly as much as myers. when anyone starts about the o-line weaknesses, it nearly always myers that gets mentioned

What gets me the most, is that Winston gets praise & accolades when he IMHO is the weakest link on the field. They'll come back, and say, "Winston is going against elite pass rushers on every play."

Then curse Myers for getting blown up against Jenkins & Hampton.

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 01:04 PM
I just can't see how we can put our line up in the top 10 much less right outside of the top 5. Schaub had a ton of pressures and hits applied to him and there were plenty of times where if our receivers (Specifically AJ and OD) weren't so good he would've had a lot lower of a completion %. I do think the line will do better than this season than last, but to catapult them that high seems folly to me.


The dude said they were 8th in 2009, despite Matt's limited mobility, and fail in the run game. He's projecting a 100% Schaub and a better backfield would help us improve... from 8.

He gives us 3 spots.

Folly? He sounds almost conservative to me.

b0ng
06-20-2010, 01:09 PM
What gets me the most, is that Winston gets praise & accolades when he IMHO is the weakest link on the field. They'll come back, and say, "Winston is going against elite pass rushers on every play."

Then curse Myers for getting blown up against Jenkins & Hampton.

Tis the quandry of the fan.

drs23
06-20-2010, 01:12 PM
I can live with that.

My question, concerning the red zone, is why did we continually try to do what we aren't good at. Inside Zone doesn't work very well on a short field, we don't have the personnel to run power I.

Few teams ran misdirection as effectively as we did, and we were fairly efficient when stretching to the right.

I understand we have to run it up the middle on the goal line, to avoid being predictable. I don't understand why we predictably tried to run it up the middle.

So we wouldn't be so predictable?? :)

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 01:28 PM
I'll give ya that the RB's didn't help them out much, but there weren't gaping holes for them to run through either. I'd like to see an argument for them being a good run blocking unit last year.

Physically, Foster does not have one advantage over Slaton or Moats other than size. He has no burst, and he has no speed. Yet he was able to run effectively against the Dolphins and the Patriots... teams comparable to other teams we've played throughout the year.

Moats did a fine job against buffalo... not that Buffalo is all that, but we know what Moats is. I like the guy, but he runs with blinders. For him to have a good day against anyone, let's just say he needs help.

Chris Brown, slower than Foster, his second gear is reverse... but early in games, he was able to make gains of 5, 6, 7, and every now and then, 10 yards. I guarantee, it was not because of his prowess as a RB.

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 01:31 PM
McKinney was a natural guard pressed into playing a center.... That said, Steve did a helluva lot better at center than Myers...


Have you played any of those positions?? I have, in fact I've played all five...

Are you under the impression that Alex Gibbs was an all-pro at all 5 positions?

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 01:51 PM
I don't give a crap what some stat site says, I know what I see......and what I see is Chris Myers suckitude..and after 3 seasons I'm tired of watching it. Seriously...please stop claiming that this guy has been our best Olineman, because he hasn't been and he has cost us chances at a playoff berth. :rolleyes:


I may be wrong, but I don't know of anyone saying Chris Meyers has been our best OLman. That's definitely not what I have been saying. He is our most consistent, I believe at doing the things you want a ZBS offensive lineman to do. IMHO, if you are trying to teach a system to 5 players, you have got to keep Myers in there, if he is in fact the most consistent.

What I've been saying, is that the rest of the line has to improve, and play with the consistency we've seen from Myers.

With Pitts out of the picture, Studdard, White, & Cladwell getting serious snaps, and bringing Smith in, I don't expect to see Myers starting... I don't think he is the best option we have...

I believe we are clearly past the learning phase... Myers has served his purpose.

gary
06-20-2010, 01:58 PM
How about al O line of Winston, Brown, Mike, Caldwell, Butler/Smith?

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 02:19 PM
How about al O line of Winston, Brown, Mike, Caldwell, Butler/Smith?

I'd love to see Caldwell take over at Center. He does everything Myers does (minus the consistency) plus he's stronger (or at least appears to be). I also liked Brisiel at RG.

Brown.... Studdard... Caldwell.. Brisiel... Winston..

That's the way I would do it, based on what they've done in the past.

I haven't seen Smith, if he's all that, and wins the Center position, Caldwell needs to go back to RG.

gary
06-20-2010, 02:23 PM
What does Shelley play?

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 02:40 PM
What does Shelley play?

He's an interior lineman, guard I believe. But he's a developmental guy for now.

gary
06-20-2010, 02:45 PM
He's an interior lineman, guard I believe. But he's a developmental guy for now.I'd put Caldwell on the line and then let Casey battle someone else for a spot.

Carr Bombed
06-20-2010, 04:26 PM
Well that's just silly. If Kris Brown had hit to the average he did the two years previously the Texans would have been in the playoffs with Myers. Great hyperbole to make a point I suppose but inaccurate.

And if Chris Myers was half way decent, Houston would've been able to convert on 3rd and short and at the goal line, thus not even having to count on their kicker to win ball games.

There's no hyperbole here. Seriously, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect different results. For two years now, we've rolled out this bum and watched him get completely owned during some of the most important plays of a game. He sucks, which is why I can't stand it when somebody tries to stick up for him. He's a backup center and hopefully Wade Smith or somebody makes him a backup.

Carr Bombed
06-20-2010, 04:31 PM
I may be wrong, but I don't know of anyone saying Chris Meyers has been our best OLman. That's definitely not what I have been saying. He is our most consistent, I believe at doing the things you want a ZBS offensive lineman to do. IMHO, if you are trying to teach a system to 5 players, you have got to keep Myers in there, if he is in fact the most consistent.

What I've been saying, is that the rest of the line has to improve, and play with the consistency we've seen from Myers.

With Pitts out of the picture, Studdard, White, & Cladwell getting serious snaps, and bringing Smith in, I don't expect to see Myers starting... I don't think he is the best option we have...

I believe we are clearly past the learning phase... Myers has served his purpose.

Yeah the problem is, is that he isn't even our most consistent offensive lineman. The plays where he sucks, he REALLY sucks, more than any other lineman. I've never seen a offensive lineman get ***** slapped to the ground or have seen a offensive line man thrown at a RB for a tackle until I watched Myers against the Jets and Steelers.

I'm expecting more comedy with all the 3-4 teams that we have to face this year.

barrett
06-20-2010, 04:47 PM
How about al O line of Winston, Brown, Mike, Caldwell, Butler/Smith?

When guys went down last year I thought they might figure out some way to get Butler on the field and go with the Five Best Guys approach but it didn't happen. I would love to ask Benton why that was.

I'm not an offensive line coach and perhaps there are issues with sliding Winston inside that we can't understand based on our limited access to meeting rooms, game cut-ups and practices.

Butler seemed functional as a LT but honestly I question his intelligence, (based only on his twitter posts) which clearly shows mine.

steelbtexan
06-20-2010, 04:49 PM
#6 That's laughable

The mark of a good OL is being able to convert 3rd downs and being able to convert short yardage/goal line situations.

The Jets were much better than than the Texans at this. Everything else is just for the stats geeks play with the numbers.

gary
06-20-2010, 04:53 PM
When guys went down last year I thought they might figure out some way to get Butler on the field and go with the Five Best Guys approach but it didn't happen. I would love to ask Benton why that was.

I'm not an offensive line coach and perhaps there are issues with sliding Winston inside that we can't understand based on our limited access to meeting rooms, game cut-ups and practices.

Butler seemed functional as a LT but honestly I question his intelligence, (based only on his twitter posts) which clearly shows mine.
I'd like to know why Eric is not moved on the inside I have his e-mail maybe I e-mail to ask him. LOL

thunderkyss
06-20-2010, 04:55 PM
#6 That's laughable

The mark of a good OL is being able to convert 3rd downs and being able to convert short yardage/goal line situations.

The Jets were much better than than the Texans at this. Everything else is just for the stats geeks play with the numbers.

You know, I remember when we used to complain about not getting "props" from the media.

Or negative press.

barrett
06-20-2010, 04:59 PM
I'd like to know why Eric is not moved on the inside I have his e-mail maybe I e-mail to ask him. LOL

Good luck, I've asked him several times. I think he might take offense to it.

If you can, word it in a way that asks about the injuries last year and how that might have been the best option for the team at the time etc. etc.

or, Gary, you can word it however you want... god I'm such a tool sometimes.

steelbtexan
06-20-2010, 05:00 PM
You know, I remember when we used to complain about not getting "props" from the media.

Or negative press.

True

LOL

Being irrelavent is the worst thing you can be PR wise.

Speaking of PR I wonder why Tony Wylie left the organization?

gary
06-20-2010, 05:07 PM
Good luck, I've asked him several times. I think he might take offense to it.

If you can, word it in a way that asks about the injuries last year and how that might have been the best option for the team at the time etc. etc.

or, Gary, you can word it however you want... god I'm such a tool sometimes.
I'll probably just leave it alone he works with me so I do not want to upset him.

V3rm0nt3r
06-20-2010, 07:25 PM
When guys went down last year I thought they might figure out some way to get Butler on the field and go with the Five Best Guys approach but it didn't happen. I would love to ask Benton why that was.

I'm not an offensive line coach and perhaps there are issues with sliding Winston inside that we can't understand based on our limited access to meeting rooms, game cut-ups and practices.

Butler seemed functional as a LT but honestly I question his intelligence, (based only on his twitter posts) which clearly shows mine.

I remember an interview a while back where Winston was asked if it was a big transition moving from the left side (where he played at the U) to the right side and he said it was huge. He said your doing everything oppositely (I thought about trying to write lefty as a way of understanding how uncomfortable it must be). Taking this into account I'm sure it would be unwise to try to switch someone to the opposite side that they've been playing midseason.

Having said this if Butler was a better lineman than Caldwell and White this season I'm not sure why he wasn't tried out inside but I'm sure I'm overlooking some reason.

76Texan
06-20-2010, 08:47 PM
I'm sorry this is just a combine/draft geek thing to say. The OL and DL rarely engage at full arm extension. Winston's arms are irrelevant other than in their strength. What he gets beat on is speed rushers like Mathis and one inch longer arms wouldn't solve that problem.

Just rewatch the Texans/Packers game and you will see what I mean. Quite a few times Kampman straight-armed Winston in the chest to push him back toward the pocket.

Otherwise, if Kampman stays healthy, we will have a chance to watch him against Winston as Kampman signed with the Jaguars a few months ago.

76Texan
06-20-2010, 08:53 PM
I'd love to see Caldwell take over at Center. He does everything Myers does (minus the consistency) plus he's stronger (or at least appears to be). I also liked Brisiel at RG.

Brown.... Studdard... Caldwell.. Brisiel... Winston..

That's the way I would do it, based on what they've done in the past.

I haven't seen Smith, if he's all that, and wins the Center position, Caldwell needs to go back to RG.Smith played poorply at Center for the Chiefs. He played much better at Guard.

He's not the strong type of lineman.

His best attribute is his willingness and effectiveness in cut blocking, which either seal off the back side or create a cut back lane for the RBs.

76Texan
06-20-2010, 08:57 PM
[/B]

Really? I'm not a huge fan of the guy by any stretch of the imagination but this team was a couple of lay down jobs by other teams last year from making the playoffs. I don't think its that big of a stretch they can make it this year, even with Myers at center.

Or how about a couple fewer fumbles from our own guys? I think that would also have done the trick!

76Texan
06-20-2010, 10:33 PM
Also, whoever (CB?) thought that the Texans need to take Myers out before he get Schaub injured might want to watch the first Texans offensive play of the second game against the Jags.

Remember that shoulder harness that MS had to wear for the rest of the season?

Guess who the culprit(s) was (were)?
None of the guys in the interior.

Both Duane Brown (who played with a bad knee suffered in the previous game) and Winston were beat instantly (like in less than one second).
The RDE chased MS first, but it was the LDE Groves (Winston's guy) who brought Schaub down.

Hmm, may be the Texans need to take them two tackles out instead!

76Texan
06-21-2010, 12:46 AM
I'm sorry this is just a combine/draft geek thing to say. The OL and DL rarely engage at full arm extension. Winston's arms are irrelevant other than in their strength. What he gets beat on is speed rushers like Mathis and one inch longer arms wouldn't solve that problem.


Also, while I took a few looks back at the second Jags game, another situation shows itself.

On the interception by Grossman, Winston was pushed back by Groves.
This guy is a tweener 6'3 DE, only weighed in at 250 at the combine, but his arms are 34". He benched 23 reps so it wasn't like he's the strongest DE out there.

But Winston had to sustain the block with his chest because he couldn't reach Groves with his arms.

Groves then disengaged from Winston and got pretty close to Grossman.
Had Grossman not thrown that pass, Groves would be on top of him from behind just as Harvey was on Schaub earlier in the game.

76Texan
06-21-2010, 12:54 AM
In the same game, Chris Brown ran 9yds for a TD up the middle.
In that play, Myers took the big NT Henderson 4-5 yds back (Jags was in the 3-4)
The announcer said Henderson was supposed to weigh 325 lbs but looked much bigger than that.

But there's no love for Myers?

Carr Bombed
06-21-2010, 04:59 AM
Also, whoever (CB?) thought that the Texans need to take Myers out before he get Schaub injured might want to watch the first Texans offensive play of the second game against the Jags.

Remember that shoulder harness that MS had to wear for the rest of the season?

Guess who the culprit(s) was (were)?
None of the guys in the interior.

Both Duane Brown (who played with a bad knee suffered in the previous game) and Winston were beat instantly (like in less than one second).
The RDE chased MS first, but it was the LDE Groves (Winston's guy) who brought Schaub down.

Hmm, may be the Texans need to take them two tackles out instead!

LMAO....so your argument is.. since Winston blew a assignment that "we need to excuse the ownage and ignore the ineptitude that is Chris Myers"
Sorry, but that is a crappy excuse at best. Maybe, just maybe if Myers gave Schaub a pocket to step into, he might avoid some of these hits that you talk about and not only that....maybe, just maybe...we might be able to pick up a freaking yard when we need it also :rolleyes:

Carr Bombed
06-21-2010, 05:05 AM
In the same game, Chris Brown ran 9yds for a TD up the middle.
In that play, Myers took the big NT Henderson 4-5 yds back (Jags was in the 3-4)
The announcer said Henderson was supposed to weigh 325 lbs but looked much bigger than that.

But there's no love for Myers?

Oh.....and on one play, David Carr looked off a defender, progressed through his reads, and hit a receiver for a TD


Who gives a crap what Myers did on one single play when he's getting bitchslapped for the rest of them? LOL Seriously.

Maddict5
06-21-2010, 05:56 AM
Oh.....and on one play, David Carr looked off a defender, progressed through his reads, and hit a receiver for a TD


Who gives a crap what Myers did on one single play when he's getting bitchslapped for the rest of them? LOL Seriously.

but you see thats the thing you seem to be ignoring. he isnt bitchslapped constantly. he has some awful plays against big NT's but overal does a decent job.

but whatever its not like your going to listen anyway right? chris myers will forever suck in your mind because of that kris jenkins play and a handful of other bad plays. you throw out his stellar plays as flukes (like above), deny him any credit whatsoever for previous successes such as slatons big yr in 08 & schaubs last year and ignore the information that suggests hes actually a half decent center... which btw is not a stats thing as you suggested... its going through every single play and grading him, and every other C in the league, on what he individually did. but you just throw it out as BS because YOU watch chris myers on every play too right? and you 'know suckitude' :rolleyes:

Carr Bombed
06-21-2010, 06:15 AM
but you see thats the thing you seem to be ignoring. he isnt bitchslapped constantly. he has some awful plays against big NT's but overal does a decent job.

but whatever its not like your going to listen anyway right? chris myers will forever suck in your mind because of that kris jenkins play and a handful of other bad plays. you throw out his stellar plays as flukes (like above), deny him any credit whatsoever for previous successes such as slatons big yr in 08 & schaubs last year and ignore the information that suggests hes actually a half decent center... which btw is not a stats thing as you suggested... its going through every single play and grading him, and every other C in the league, on what he individually did. but you just throw it out as BS because YOU watch chris myers on every play too right? and you 'know suckitude' :rolleyes:

LOL, I DO WATCH MYERS ON EVERY SINGLE PLAY..(as I see every play of every Texans game)...it's how I know that he sucks...and he does, especially in the running game.

And the thing that you're ignoring is the fact that Myers gets flat out owned more than any other offensive lineman on this team and loses more battles than any other lineman on this team. Please spare me the "consistency" argument (when you get consistently owned you have no "consistently" argument) .....and don't try to bring up "just a handful of bad plays" either, especially when I've been harping on this guy WAY BEFORE THAT JENKINS PLAY. (opps...there goes that argument). The guy stinks, but lets praise him because Schaub has been able to over come his shortcomings (too bad our running game can't) :rolleyes:... Yes, everybody, lets try to pretend that we have even a average center, just because he have a stellar QB. Before injury Steve McKinney was twice the center that Myers is.

Myers is horrible and desperately needs to be replaced and the position desperately needs a upgrade. Again like I said above, the comedy will ensue with all these 3-4 teams that we're slated to face. Be prepared to watch a Kris Jenkins ***** slap sequel...

Maddict5
06-21-2010, 09:01 AM
LOL, I DO WATCH MYERS ON EVERY SINGLE PLAY..(as I see every play of every Texans game)...it's how I know that he sucks...and he does, especially in the running game.

And the thing that you're ignoring is the fact that Myers gets flat out owned more than any other offensive lineman on this team and loses more battles than any other lineman on this team. Please spare me the "consistency" argument (when you get consistently owned you have no "consistently" argument) .....and don't try to bring up "just a handful of bad plays" either, especially when I've been harping on this guy WAY BEFORE THAT JENKINS PLAY. (opps...there goes that argument). The guy stinks, but lets praise him because Schaub has been able to over come his shortcomings (too bad our running game can't) :rolleyes:... Yes, everybody, lets try to pretend that we have even a average center, just because he have a stellar QB. Before injury Steve McKinney was twice the center that Myers is.

Myers is horrible and desperately needs to be replaced and the position desperately needs a upgrade. Again like I said above, the comedy will ensue with all these 3-4 teams that we're slated to face. Be prepared to watch a Kris Jenkins ***** slap sequel...

please note im sick of trying to reason so il use plenty of hyperbole & sarcasm on this post. if you cant beat em, join em
like i said, im sure you do watch myers every play. its really why you tune in on sundays. screw watching our probowl qb & wr when the ball is snapped, you keep your eyes fixed on how mr myers is doing every play. right. (cue 'i rewatch it & watch myers specifically'). how did he rank against all the other centers you compared him to? what was his best & worst games? how much gatorade did he drink during the raiders game?

oh it wasnt the jenkins play? then im guessing it was either the williams wall play as mentioned earlier or if your going real old school the hampton play in 08

anyway this is the equivalent of banging my head agaist a wall so il leave it at this post. im sure you'll be pleased to get the last word/post in that you love so much and we can all move on to another more interesting topic

HOU-TEX
06-21-2010, 09:14 AM
CB, I think the coaches know Myers is an issue, along with the G position. It's been known that Brisiel and Smith (I think it was him) have gotten work at C throughout OTA's. I think we'll see how serious they are at replacing Myers come TC, but early indications of finding his replacement look promising.

I don't know about costing us the season, but I agree with your overall take on Myers' ability, or lack thereof, at C.

HJam72
06-21-2010, 09:29 AM
It was that play in Jr. High. :tomato:

thunderkyss
06-21-2010, 12:15 PM
LMAO....so your argument is.. since Winston blew a assignment that "we need to excuse the ownage and ignore the ineptitude that is Chris Myers":rolleyes:

You totally missed the points. It's not that Myers needs to be excused, but if you are being honest, your ire would be spread around more evenly.

Who gives a crap what Myers did on one single play when he's getting bitchslapped for the rest of them? LOL Seriously.

It's not just one play, there are many plays where Myers gets the job done. a few, where he looks fantastic.

For every play Myers screwed the pooch, there is a play for every offensive lineman on our team.


And the thing that you're ignoring is the fact that Myers gets flat out owned more than any other offensive lineman on this team and loses more battles than any other lineman on this team.

False, that would be Winston.

76Texan
06-21-2010, 01:05 PM
I challenge Cb to do a play by play analysis of each and every single play he claimed he saw.

If he can show that Myers is the O-lineman that is owned the most on the Texans, I will eat dirt!

If he can't, I won't ask him to eat dirt, just to be more fair to all the players... all I ask!

76Texan
06-21-2010, 01:12 PM
Another thing is that if CB claimed he watched every snap (and spare me the local guys like Spencer Tillman), he would know that for two consecutive years, Myers was called out by the announcers the most for good plays on the line.

thunderkyss
06-21-2010, 01:19 PM
If he can't, I won't ask him to eat dirt, just to be more fair to all the players... all I ask!

Sounds reasonable to me.

barrett
06-21-2010, 05:38 PM
I remember an interview a while back where Winston was asked if it was a big transition moving from the left side (where he played at the U) to the right side and he said it was huge. He said your doing everything oppositely (I thought about trying to write lefty as a way of understanding how uncomfortable it must be). Taking this into account I'm sure it would be unwise to try to switch someone to the opposite side that they've been playing midseason.

Having said this if Butler was a better lineman than Caldwell and White this season I'm not sure why he wasn't tried out inside but I'm sure I'm overlooking some reason.

True however, when Brisiel went down it might have made sense to slide Winston inside one spot on the same side. Butler is the swing so he practices at both positions constantly. It just so happens that our rookie C/G was primarily at RG throughout TC and preseason. Was he not good at LG? Did the coaches not work him there for a reason? We'll never know. But catfish is primarily a C/RG as well. Why is that? I don't know but it might have something to do with why Winston wasn't slid over one. When Pitts went down it made sense to the team to bump Studdard up and leave it at that. I don't know what makes a LG from a RG. I believe (and corrrect me please if I'm wrong) but we primarily run the zone to the right side so it could have something to do with backside cutting versus sliding up to the second level or something. I don't know.



please note im sick of trying to reason so il use plenty of hyperbole & sarcasm on this post. if you cant beat em, join em
like i said, im sure you do watch myers every play. its really why you tune in on sundays. screw watching our probowl qb & wr when the ball is snapped, you keep your eyes fixed on how mr myers is doing every play. right. (cue 'i rewatch it & watch myers specifically'). how did he rank against all the other centers you compared him to? what was his best & worst games? how much gatorade did he drink during the raiders game?

oh it wasnt the jenkins play? then im guessing it was either the williams wall play as mentioned earlier or if your going real old school the hampton play in 08

anyway this is the equivalent of banging my head agaist a wall so il leave it at this post. im sure you'll be pleased to get the last word/post in that you love so much and we can all move on to another more interesting topic

I'd be the first to admit, as someone who has re-watched every positon in every game that I feel like I have a really good understanding of what our guys can do and almost no understanding of any other teams players at the same positions other than basic things, Dallas Clark doesn't like to get hit. Jones Drew is a badass. There's not enough time in the day to watch all these guys when we're trying to figure out what the hell our own guys are doing even though it would probably help us better understand in the long run. I'm all for getting paid to do this stuff for a living. Anyone else?

It's been known that Brisiel and Smith (I think it was him) have gotten work at C throughout OTA's.

For the record, at least as far as I know, the only reference we have to Brisiel at center is a photograph from OTA's. That doesn't mean that he has had any extensive work at that position. It doesn't mean he hasn't either. But it's just a photograph. Meyers could have been in the bathroom.

...Just saying. No one has talked about it to the media.

thunderkyss
06-21-2010, 06:22 PM
When Pitts went down it made sense to the team to bump Studdard up and leave it at that. I don't know what makes a LG from a RG. I believe (and corrrect me please if I'm wrong) but we primarily run the zone to the right side so it could have something to do with backside cutting versus sliding up to the second level or something. I don't know.

The only thing I can think, is that when Kubiak sees Winston, he sees RT... And thinks his upside is huge at RT. Just like he never thought about moving Pitts outside, because he thought Pitts could become a HOF type LG. I'm like you, I don't see what makes one guy a LG, and another a RG, or why Butler can't get on the field for that matter.

I'm all for getting paid to do this stuff for a living. Anyone else?

I'd love to get a job just to watch as well. The Texans just made a bunch of moves in their scouting department... maybe we should sue, because I had no idea. They should have placed the openings with the TWC.

If it means anything, I'd hire you.

barrett
06-21-2010, 06:48 PM
Another thing is that if CB claimed he watched every snap (and spare me the local guys like Spencer Tillman), he would know that for two consecutive years, Myers was called out by the announcers the most for good plays on the line.

Unless he's learned to remove the announcers from his re-watch (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1286498&postcount=6) like me!

CloakNNNdagger
06-21-2010, 06:50 PM
As I've always thought that the RG is expected to have better drive blocking ability. The LG, on the other hand, is expected to have more mobility than the RG.....almost as mobile as the LT (remember Pitts held down the LT position pretty well), since when they pull they usually have somewhat longer distances to run on plays.

barrett
06-21-2010, 06:51 PM
The only thing I can think, is that when Kubiak sees Winston, he sees RT... And thinks his upside is huge at RT. Just like he never thought about moving Pitts outside, because he thought Pitts could become a HOF type LG. I'm like you, I don't see what makes one guy a LG, and another a RG, or why Butler can't get on the field for that matter.

I'd love to get a job just to watch as well. The Texans just made a bunch of moves in their scouting department... maybe we should sue, because I had no idea. They should have placed the openings with the TWC.

If it means anything, I'd hire you.

Yeah, I don't know. It drives me nuts not knowing either. I think there is something to be said for continuity too. Especially in the ZBS.

That's Winston's excuse for why the Texans ran better at the end of the year last year.

I'll send you my resume of absolutely zero football, or sports background. ;) But I appreciate the knod!

thunderkyss
06-21-2010, 07:53 PM
I'll send you my resume of absolutely zero football, or sports background. ;) But I appreciate the knod!

Wait 'till you see the pay check...

:kitten:

drs23
06-22-2010, 12:07 AM
Yeah, I don't know. It drives me nuts not knowing either. I think there is something to be said for continuity too. Especially in the ZBS.
That's Winston's excuse for why the Texans ran better at the end of the year last year.

I'll send you my resume of absolutely zero football, or sports background. ;) But I appreciate the knod!

Pardon,

You "think there is something to be said for continuity too. Especially in the ZBS."

And then, "That's Winston's excuse for why the Texans ran better at the end of the year last year."

Was this more of *reason* as opposed to an excuse? Just asking because I spent the best part of my weekend schooling myself on the ZBS and from what I gathered Eric Wiston's statement was one more of reason than excuse. The way to learn this system is by rote. Repetition. There were several mentions of deciding when to release and go to the second level was predicated on "eye contact." Does that sound like something that requires continuity or an excuse until you can get "better at the end"?

Just me perhaps, but seems like it takes a little time to get to where just a quick glance from or to your team mate each knows exacty what to do.

http://www.hawgtuff.net/ZoneBlockingManual_BASH.pdf

JB
06-22-2010, 12:20 AM
Pardon,

You "think there is something to be said for continuity too. Especially in the ZBS."

And then, "That's Winston's excuse for why the Texans ran better at the end of the year last year."

Was this more of *reason* as opposed to an excuse? Just asking because I spent the best part of my weekend schooling myself on the ZBS and from what I gathered Eric Wiston's statement was one more of reason than excuse. The way to learn this system is by rote. Repetition. There were several mentions of deciding when to release and go to the second level was predicated on "eye contact." Does that sound like something that requires continuity or an excuse until you can get "better at the end"?

Just me perhaps, but seems like it takes a little time to get to where just a quick glance from or to your team mate each knows exacty what to do.

http://www.hawgtuff.net/ZoneBlockingManual_BASH.pdf

Enough with the politeness already. We are fans on a MB, not English Lords.
Second bold- it is absolutely a "reason", not an "excuse". Continuity is a huge factor in OL play.

drs23
06-22-2010, 12:27 AM
Enough with the politeness already. We are fans on a MB, not English Lords.Second bold- it is absolutely a "reason", not an "excuse". Continuity is a huge factor in OL play.

Cool 'Nuff said.:shades:

barrett
06-22-2010, 12:59 AM
Pardon,

You "think there is something to be said for continuity too. Especially in the ZBS."

And then, "That's Winston's excuse for why the Texans ran better at the end of the year last year."

Was this more of *reason* as opposed to an excuse? Just asking because I spent the best part of my weekend schooling myself on the ZBS and from what I gathered Eric Wiston's statement was one more of reason than excuse. The way to learn this system is by rote. Repetition. There were several mentions of deciding when to release and go to the second level was predicated on "eye contact." Does that sound like something that requires continuity or an excuse until you can get "better at the end"?

Just me perhaps, but seems like it takes a little time to get to where just a quick glance from or to your team mate each knows exacty what to do.

http://www.hawgtuff.net/ZoneBlockingManual_BASH.pdf

I have no problem with you trying to get to the bottom of my intended meaning. It's very hard to understand what people mean at times when reading text as opposed to hearling inflection. I used the word excuse only because it has been a topic of heavy debate throughout the season and well into the offseason.

Many have discussed "who was to blame" for the poor running game last year. Many feel that Slaton lacked the vision that he had as a rookie as well as less burst due to his increase in weight. Others feel that the OLine was not as good at the point of attack this year due to injuries to our interior line. Still there are some who feel that the Center was the weakest link on the line and he alone is to blame somehow. Some people think that defenses figured out a way to counteract the ZBS by exploding the line at the point of attack and not allowing the OLine to get to the second level. Oddly, there are some of us who feel that it is a combination of all of those things.

That's why I used the term "excuse". But it was not meant to mean anything extra. I could have used different words just the same.

Furthermore, I have no issue with you being polite.

Thanks.

Carr Bombed
06-22-2010, 01:53 AM
I challenge Cb to do a play by play analysis of each and every single play he claimed he saw.

If he can show that Myers is the O-lineman that is owned the most on the Texans, I will eat dirt!

If he can't, I won't ask him to eat dirt, just to be more fair to all the players... all I ask!

I can't go back and look at every play.....I moved and have a new box, so all my dvr'd programs are gone.

Plus even if I had my old box, going back and analyzing Chris Myers wouldn't be worth my time.....and even if I felt it was, you'd have to change your stipulations. I already eat dirt every night, it's called my girlfriend's cooking (pray she doesn't log on here. :) )

Carr Bombed
06-22-2010, 01:58 AM
You totally missed the points. It's not that Myers needs to be excused, but if you are being honest, your ire would be spread around more evenly.

I don't have a huge problem with Winston......yes he can do better in pass protection, but that isn't the biggest problem with the Oline.....run blocking is and Winston might be our best run blocker.


It's not just one play, there are many plays where Myers gets the job done. a few, where he looks fantastic.

Myers is good in between the 20's, but in short yardage situations are when we need tough yards up the middle.....he sucks. That has been the biggest problem with this offense.

For every play Myers screwed the pooch, there is a play for every offensive lineman on our team.



False, that would be Winston.

Nope Winston is > than Myers....that's how bad Myers is. Winston atleast plays with toughness and shows toughness on the field.

Carr Bombed
06-22-2010, 02:02 AM
please note im sick of trying to reason so il use plenty of hyperbole & sarcasm on this post. if you cant beat em, join em
like i said, im sure you do watch myers every play. its really why you tune in on sundays. screw watching our probowl qb & wr when the ball is snapped, you keep your eyes fixed on how mr myers is doing every play. right. (cue 'i rewatch it & watch myers specifically'). how did he rank against all the other centers you compared him to? what was his best & worst games? how much gatorade did he drink during the raiders game?

oh it wasnt the jenkins play? then im guessing it was either the williams wall play as mentioned earlier or if your going real old school the hampton play in 08

anyway this is the equivalent of banging my head agaist a wall so il leave it at this post. im sure you'll be pleased to get the last word/post in that you love so much and we can all move on to another more interesting topic

LOL, what???

Oh you're right Myers is freaking AWESOME. I mean he's the best dad gum lineman on the team hands down....that's the reason why we've been acquiring interior lineman since he's been here and the reason why he's going to have to complete for his spot this training camp..:rolleyes:

Hmm, is anybody pushing Winston for his job this offseason?

imatexan
06-22-2010, 02:37 AM
LOL, what???

Oh you're right Myers is freaking AWESOME. I mean hands down the best dad gum lineman on the team hands down....that's the reason why we've been acquiring interior lineman since he's been here and the reason why he's going to have to complete for his spot this training camp..:rolleyes:

Hmm, is anybody pushing Winston for his job this offseason?

Myers is a decent center.

He is nothing special but he gets the job done behind a weak running game (last year) and the stats back it up.

I don't know why you have to start every post laughing at what the person is saying in caps, not necessary.

Carr Bombed
06-22-2010, 03:00 AM
Myers is a decent center.

He is nothing special but he gets the job done behind a weak running game (last year) and the stats back it up.

I don't know why you have to start every post laughing at what the person is saying in caps, not necessary.

??? Umm, I don't start every post laughing. what are you talking about?

And second, Myers is not a decent center. If he was, The Broncos wouldn't of traded him for a 6th round pick (especially when Nalen was getting old) and he wouldn't have to compete for his job during this offseason. From the official site...

Five questions after OTAs and Mini-camp....

4. What will the interior offensive line look like?


The tackle spots—Duane Brown on the left, Eric Winston on the right—seem to be secure, but there's a lot of competition on the interior of the Texans' offensive line.

The starters from the end of last season - left guard Kasey Studdard, center Chris Myers and right guard Antoine Caldwell - are all being challenged for their spots. Free agent acquisition Wade Smith and Mike Brisiel, who's returning from a foot injury that knocked him from the starting right guard spot in Week 4 last year, are leading the push for playing time.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=6213

Also Myers does NOT get the job done. The closer Houston gets to pay dirt or when down and distance becomes paramount the more his weaknesses get exposed......it's been that way for two years now, but lets all ignore the facts.

thunderkyss
06-22-2010, 05:06 AM
I don't have a huge problem with Winston......yes he can do better in pass protection, but that isn't the biggest problem with the Oline.....run blocking is and Winston might be our best run blocker.

On the play side, yes, he's a monster, I wouldn't say best, because what he is asked to do, and what the guards are asked to do, and what the Center is asked to do, are pretty different.
On the backside...... he's the worst.

Myers is good in between the 20's, but in short yardage situations are when we need tough yards up the middle.....he sucks. That has been the biggest problem with this offense.

If any of the five guys were any good at getting push inside the 20's, that's the guy we would run behind. Spread the hate brother... they all need to get better in the redzone.

Nope Winston is > than Myers....that how bad Myers is. Winston atleast plays with toughness and shows toughness on the field.

Nope Myers is > than Winston, he's got the speed and agility to get to the second level that Winston can not compete with.

Carr Bombed
06-22-2010, 07:43 AM
On the play side, yes, he's a monster, I wouldn't say best, because what he is asked to do, and what the guards are asked to do, and what the Center is asked to do, are pretty different.
On the backside...... he's the worst.

Winston is the best run blocker on this team........regardless of "what he's asked to do". Myers wouldn't be able to hold up on the outside, so let's not even try to give him that benefit or pretend like he could because we're searching for excuses for him. Myers is a interior lineman, he'd get owned at tackle, it's silly to think otherwise, especially when he gets help inside.


If any of the five guys were any good at getting push inside the 20's, that's the guy we would run behind. Spread the hate brother... they all need to get better in the redzone.

Yeah, because when you need a couple of inches you routinely call tosses to the outside? Thinking of it...maybe we should've, we probably would've converted and scored more often.


Nope Myers is > than Winston, he's got the speed and agility to get to the second level that Winston can not compete with.

LOL, yeah that's why Winston out performed Myers in just about every agility drill. People forget if it wasn't for Winston's injury, he probably would've been a 1st round pick.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=11038&draftyear=2005&genpos=OG

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=11063&draftyear=2006&genpos=OT

It's funny how the new thing to do is to trash one playwe to try to build up another.......especially when people are trying to dog said players' strength to try to build up and fabricate another players' absolute weakness.

Winston is easily > than Myers...it really isn't even debatable

thunderkyss
06-22-2010, 11:46 AM
It's funny how the new thing to do is to trash one playwe to try to build up another.......especially when people are trying to dog said players' strength to try to build up and fabricate another players' absolute weakness.

Winston is easily > than Myers...it really isn't even debatable

Let's be clear... I think we can do better than Myers at center. He's not the most talented player we have to play that position. But I think we need to improve across the whole line.

If you see me pointing out shortcomings, or faults in any players game, it's not to cut them down. It's simply to support my position... if you're going to point out the mistakes made by players, you should be fair, there are other players on the OL that makes it harder to run the ball, than Chris Myers. Other than David Carr, I've never set out to cut a player down... other than David Carr, and that was only because he was being touted as something he was not.

I'm not saying Myers is a great center, or a pro-bowl center, or even the future of this team at center. Kubiak has been trying to teach this team a system, and Chris Meyers has done what he is supposed to more consistently than any other player Kubiak has put on the line.
Period.

& if you honestly read what I am saying, and watched the games without your hater glasses, you would see that. I'm not saying he doesn't get overpowered. I'm not saying he doesn't make mistakes. I'm not saying he doesn't fail at times.

The Jets game, is the perfect example. He was totally overpowered on two plays, by Kris Jenkins, and that is all you can talk about. Kris Jenkins whupped Pitts' ass all game long... but you don't mention it once.

I'm not cutting Pitts down. I think he was the biggest, strongest, most talented OL we've had in a long time, and that includes Winston. But the man got beat again, and again, and again. Nothing as dramatic as the rag-dolling Meyers took, but definitely, without question more frequently.

HOU-TEX
06-22-2010, 11:58 AM
The Jets game, is the perfect example. He was totally overpowered on two plays, by Kris Jenkins, and that is all you can talk about. Kris Jenkins whupped Pitts' ass all game long... but you don't mention it once.
.

I re-watched the Miami game a few days ago so you can probably add it to the list. Myers was destroyed a few times by 2 different NT. The most notable was a couple times in goal to go situations. He was driven into the backfield and into the RB.

I agree he isn't the only one getting owned. Studdard, White and Caldwell were also involved in a porous interior of the line. Yes, Brown and Winston had their share of mistakes, but it's obvious the coaches also think those 3 interior positions are the core of the problem. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been hearing about the competition revolving around the C and G positions throughout OTA's, right?

thunderkyss
06-22-2010, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Nope Myers is > than Winston, he's got the speed and agility to get to the second level that Winston can not compete with.

This is about Myers playing Center. From watching them play, it appears his primary job is to push the play-side DT in front of the play-side guard, then get to the second level and attack the MLB, or the Will... depending on who is in front of him.

Winston has a similar job on some plays. Pushing that DT in front of the backside guard, then releasing to the second level. I'm not saying this is always Winston responsibility (when he is on the backside), but there are plays, where it was clearly what he was trying to do (there are a few, where he did it very well, and he's got better at it as the season went on).

It is my opinion, if you counted all the plays from last season, when that was the goal, Meyers' ratio would be higher than Winston's.

If you ask me, why I believe Meyers should be replaced, and Winston not, it is because I don't believe Meyers will get substantially better, where I think Caldwell would at that same position, & I think Winston can get substantially better.

76Texan
06-22-2010, 12:27 PM
I re-watched the Miami game a few days ago so you can probably add it to the list. Myers was destroyed a few times by 2 different NT. The most notable was a couple times in goal to go situations. He was driven into the backfield and into the RB.

I agree he isn't the only one getting owned. Studdard, White and Caldwell were also involved in a porous interior of the line. Yes, Brown and Winston had their share of mistakes, but it's obvious the coaches also think those 3 interior positions are the core of the problem. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been hearing about the competition revolving around the C and G positions throughout OTA's, right?
I have rewatched that game several times recently.
I think you have your "hater's glasses" on, Hou-Tex. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif
I have the play-by-play break down in another PC, I will bring it here and we can compare notes!

76Texan
06-22-2010, 12:29 PM
I can't go back and look at every play.....I moved and have a new box, so all my dvr'd programs are gone.

Plus even if I had my old box, going back and analyzing Chris Myers wouldn't be worth my time.....and even if I felt it was, you'd have to change your stipulations. I already eat dirt every night, it's called my girlfriend's cooking (pray she doesn't log on here. :) )

In another word, you have been rehashing all this by going through your own memory?

Case closed then!
Forget about it!

76Texan
06-22-2010, 12:43 PM
??? Umm, I don't start every post laughing. what are you talking about?

And second, Myers is not a decent center. If he was, The Broncos wouldn't of traded him for a 6th round pick (especially when Nalen was getting old) and he wouldn't have to compete for his job during this offseason. From the official site...



http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=6213

Also Myers does NOT get the job done. The closer Houston gets to pay dirt or when down and distance becomes paramount the more his weaknesses get exposed......it's been that way for two years now, but lets all ignore the facts.At the time, I was saying that Myers was a small gift to Shanahan Jr from daddy. Nalen was supposed to come back fully from injury.
(By your reasoning, Pollard is trash!)

The opinion from the houstontexan.com is still from one person.

It was obvious that the Texans would lose Pitts and that Brisiel's situation was unclear. Neither Studdard, Caldwell or White showed enough to guarantee a starting spot. The Texans usually tried to get themselves prepared going into the draft.
And of course, when you have a ton of players inside, you will have competition.

If you read carefully, what Kubiak said, (Smith will push Myers, not competing for a starting job, and he will also push Studdard and Caldwell. So will Brisiel).

Winston's old injury was old. If he recovered fully from that then he would be considered a bust playing like he did for the Texans (by some unreasonable fan).
If he was less than he was during college, then he is what he is today.

The claim that Myers' weakness get exposed close to paydirt has some merrit, but he was not the only culprit. It wasn't like they designed the run to go behind Center. The other guys have as much if not more to do with the results; and that include the tackles, the TEs, the RBs, and the QB.

When I have time, I can go back to each of the short yardage situation and we'll see if Myers is bad enough such that all his other good plays cannot make up for it.

painekiller
06-22-2010, 01:30 PM
I'm sure you typed Jenkins, but you have a malicious virus that automatically changes it...

And you are absolutely correct. There is not a center in the league who can block him one-on-one when it is an obvious pass play.

Thank you, i ran my virus scan program and found that sucker. Thanks for letting me know I had it.

bckey
06-22-2010, 03:49 PM
I'm not saying Myers is a great center, or a pro-bowl center, or even the future of this team at center. Kubiak has been trying to teach this team a system, and Chris Meyers has done what he is supposed to more consistently than any other player Kubiak has put on the line.
Period.

I put that on Kubiak. Myers came here from Denver already knowing the system. So if Myers has done what he is supposed to do more consistantly than any other player Kubiak has on the line we have a coaching problem. The only other thing it could be is a talent and/or learning disability of the other players on the line.

Goldensilence
06-22-2010, 04:26 PM
Honestly #6. I don't know about that.

IMO the problem is that once Gary came from Denver he thought, well more assumed, he could immediately do two things.

1.Coach up the OL to a ZBS where he could use lighter players and use late round picks.

2. Find fairly unspectacular RBs in the late round that he could plug into the system and get the same results he was getting in Denver.

Problem is that he was trying to do BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. Which lead to a rag tag, patch work OL for the most part and a stable of useless RBs up until the past year or two when he figured out that approach just wasn't working and that's when he figured out he had to invest higher picks at RB and on the OL. Caldwell shows promise and Slaton had a big rookie campaign. This year we'll see if it pays off more with adding Ben Tate to the mix. I just really wish we could've used another earlier pick on the interior.

Though I do like Smith's measureables and think he has a chance to stick.

I can't also help but wonder how much longer the cloud of the David Carr years can hang over this OL. I still think that plays at least a PART in why some of the better OLmen have flirted with coming here, but end up signing elsewhere.

If Matt continues to stay healthy and we can get something out of the running game this year (I'm really hoping it can turn into the Giants situation a few years ago when they had 3 RBs) then we could see more interest garnered in higher end OLmen actually COMING to Houston.


Let's be clear... I think we can do better than Myers at center. He's not the most talented player we have to play that position. But I think we need to improve across the whole line.

If you see me pointing out shortcomings, or faults in any players game, it's not to cut them down. It's simply to support my position... if you're going to point out the mistakes made by players, you should be fair, there are other players on the OL that makes it harder to run the ball, than Chris Myers. Other than David Carr, I've never set out to cut a player down... other than David Carr, and that was only because he was being touted as something he was not.

I'm not saying Myers is a great center, or a pro-bowl center, or even the future of this team at center. Kubiak has been trying to teach this team a system, and Chris Meyers has done what he is supposed to more consistently than any other player Kubiak has put on the line.
Period.

& if you honestly read what I am saying, and watched the games without your hater glasses, you would see that. I'm not saying he doesn't get overpowered. I'm not saying he doesn't make mistakes. I'm not saying he doesn't fail at times.

The Jets game, is the perfect example. He was totally overpowered on two plays, by Kris Jenkins, and that is all you can talk about. Kris Jenkins whupped Pitts' ass all game long... but you don't mention it once.

I'm not cutting Pitts down. I think he was the biggest, strongest, most talented OL we've had in a long time, and that includes Winston. But the man got beat again, and again, and again. Nothing as dramatic as the rag-dolling Meyers took, but definitely, without question more frequently.

I don't think you've cut Pitts down as much as your stance on him seems inconsistent IMO.

thunderkyss
06-22-2010, 04:35 PM
I don't think you've cut Pitts down as much as your stance on him seems inconsistent IMO.

Why is that? I believe he can be a pro-bowl LG, I don't think he wanted to play in Gary's system.

ChampionTexan
06-22-2010, 04:57 PM
Honestly #6. I don't know about that.

IMO the problem is that once Gary came from Denver he thought, well more assumed, he could immediately do two things.

1.Coach up the OL to a ZBS where he could use lighter players and use late round picks.

2. Find fairly unspectacular RBs in the late round that he could plug into the system and get the same results he was getting in Denver.

Problem is that he was trying to do BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

Maybe you're right about the RB, but consider the fact that 2 of Kubiak's first 4 draft picks were tackles (Both very early 3rd round no less) , and it would tend to discount your O-line stance. Brown as a first rounder (and in many eyes a reach at that) would tend to further discount it. If you want to limit it to the 3 interior line positions, there's something to that, but I'll throw in that one of the few above average (IMO) players he inherited was Chester Pitts (previous 2nd rounder), and your back to discounting it somewhat. And the fact that he was willing to pay Flanagan decent money to come here tells you he wasn't focusing on a low round pick for the Center position either.

Keep in mind that in his first three drafts, Kubiak had three first round picks, one second round pick, and 5 third round picks, and he used 1/3 of those nine to go O-Linemen, including a first rounder. I don't see how you can say he was intent on using late round picks to do that.

JB
06-22-2010, 05:23 PM
As far as the RB situation, I think he does believe a very good RB can be found later in the draft ( ala TD), and if, (and I know it's a big if) Foster turns out to be as good as he looked in the last 3 games, he would have been proven right.

Goldensilence
06-22-2010, 05:36 PM
Why is that? I believe he can be a pro-bowl LG, I don't think he wanted to play in Gary's system.

Which is why I said SEEMS. I get what you're saying about Pitts it just looks a bit like a contradiction at face value.

Maybe you're right about the RB, but consider the fact that 2 of Kubiak's first 4 draft picks were tackles (Both very early 3rd round no less) , and it would tend to discount your O-line stance. Brown as a first rounder (and in many eyes a reach at that) would tend to further discount it. If you want to limit it to the 3 interior line positions, there's something to that, but I'll throw in that one of the few above average (IMO) players he inherited was Chester Pitts (previous 2nd rounder), and your back to discounting it somewhat. And the fact that he was willing to pay Flanagan decent money to come here tells you he wasn't focusing on a low round pick for the Center position either.

Keep in mind that in his first three drafts, Kubiak had three first round picks, one second round pick, and 5 third round picks, and he used 1/3 of those nine to go O-Linemen, including a first rounder. I don't see how you can say he was intent on using late round picks to do that.

Sure he HAD to pick studs at the tackle spots. You just can't win in regularly in this league without at least mediocre play at both tackle spots. I think most people would argue without end over Brown, but much like this year they were pidgeon-holed into taking BPA at a need spot IMO.

However, after that he's missed a lot on the meat of the OL in the middle IMO.

Sure if you want you can include Pitts, but he didn't go out and find him. I guess you can look at Flannigan, but his best years were well behind him at the point he signed onto the team.

Maybe he's just been hoping that a few players ended up being place holders while his younger late round OLmen are groomed. Problem is the place holders at times haven't been all that good and he makes odd choices at who to keep like White, Studdard, and a long shot like Stenavich at tackle. These aren't exactly guys who have high ceilings.

ChampionTexan
06-22-2010, 05:40 PM
As far as the RB situation, I think he does believe a very good RB can be found later in the draft ( ala TD), and if, (and I know it's a big if) Foster turns out to be as good as he looked in the last 3 games, he would have been proven right.

Here's my issue with all of this. When you look at how the positions are represented in the first three rounds of the drafts Kubiak's been in charge of, here's the breakdown:

OL - 4 (3 T's, 1 G/C)
DL - 4 (2 DT's, 2 DE's)
LB - 2
DB - 2 (2 CB's)
RB - 2
WR - 1

And if you want to, you could add 2 for QB in recognition of the Schaub trade.

With the possible (and obvious) exception of safety, I am at a little bit of a loss as to how this suggests a preference for or an aversion to any specific position.

76Texan
06-22-2010, 05:56 PM
Here's my issue with all of this. When you look at how the positions are represented in the first three rounds of the drafts Kubiak's been in charge of, here's the breakdown:

OL - 4 (3 T's, 1 G/C)
DL - 4 (2 DT's, 2 DE's)
LB - 2
DB - 2 (2 CB's)
RB - 2
WR - 1

And if you want to, you could add 2 for QB in recognition of the Schaub trade.

With the possible (and obvious) exception of safety, I am at a little bit of a loss as to how this suggests a preference for or an aversion to any specific position.

I agree with CPT.
Kubiak didn't neglect the O-line.
There were only so many high picks to fill so many more holes.

I like Carl Mack last year at Center, and moving Myers to Guard, where I always said he is best at.

But then it would mean that we don't have Cushing.
we simply can't have the cake and eat it, too!

JB
06-22-2010, 06:17 PM
Here's my issue with all of this. When you look at how the positions are represented in the first three rounds of the drafts Kubiak's been in charge of, here's the breakdown:

OL - 4 (3 T's, 1 G/C)
DL - 4 (2 DT's, 2 DE's)
LB - 2
DB - 2 (2 CB's)
RB - 2
WR - 1

And if you want to, you could add 2 for QB in recognition of the Schaub trade.

With the possible (and obvious) exception of safety, I am at a little bit of a loss as to how this suggests a preference for or an aversion to any specific position.

He obviously has an aversion to drafting WR! :sarcasm:

But I have no issues with his drafting of positions. Though sometimes I wish he would have picked differently. I was really pissed about the Barwin selection, but he certainly knows more about what's needed than I do.

76Texan
06-22-2010, 11:51 PM
I re-watched the Miami game a few days ago so you can probably add it to the list. Myers was destroyed a few times by 2 different NT. The most notable was a couple times in goal to go situations. He was driven into the backfield and into the RB.

I agree he isn't the only one getting owned. Studdard, White and Caldwell were also involved in a porous interior of the line. Yes, Brown and Winston had their share of mistakes, but it's obvious the coaches also think those 3 interior positions are the core of the problem. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been hearing about the competition revolving around the C and G positions throughout OTA's, right?

Hou-Tex, you're ready to bring up the evidence to the court?
Even as we know sometimes it can't be decided!

But heck, I respect you as having a football background so I expect you to review very carefully (at least those circumstances) to make sure you have all the evidences before you convict somebody.

The ball is in your court, and I'm ready for the response!

b0ng
06-23-2010, 12:33 AM
Damn some of you people have turned into gigantic sperglords over chris meyers. I hope that we get better play out of the OL too but to call a player completely worthless when he did have some good plays (mixed in with some bad) is just useless offseason hyperbole. We have faced plenty of 3-4 teams over the past 2 years that have not gobbled up our OL (Patriots? Dolphins? Cards? 49'ers?) Amd to think this year every 3-s team is going to bend us over is just stupid bluster. If Meyers is replaced then thatks how it goes but in no way has be been a complete waste for an entire season like Anthony Weaver or Philip Buchanon was like some people would want you to believe.

thunderkyss
06-23-2010, 07:24 AM
Hou-Tex, you're ready to bring up the evidence to the court?
Even as we know sometimes it can't be decided!

But heck, I respect you as having a football background so I expect you to review very carefully (at least those circumstances) to make sure you have all the evidences before you convict somebody.

The ball is in your court, and I'm ready for the response!

The Miami game is a fun one to watch. I've watched it a couple of times already. Miami's defense wasn't much of nothing in the first half, I don't remember being in goal to go, and not getting it done.

There were a lot of things that didn't pay-out in the second-half of that game, so maybe there was something there. But in the first half, our OL destroyed Miami. Schaub had all day to throw, and a mile to step into the pocket. There were cut-back lanes and perimeter blocks galore.. awesome.

Miami was in the hunt as well that game, so I know they brought their A-Game. AFC East is "supposedly" the other tough AFC division. We were 3-1 against them in 2009. Had we played NYJets in week 14 or 15, I think that game would have gone totally differently. I understand playing the Patriots week 1 would have been different as well... that's not my point.

lionlisa
06-23-2010, 07:29 AM
be fairly while we talk about the players

JB
06-23-2010, 07:42 AM
be fairly while we talk about the players

:confused:

thunderkyss
06-23-2010, 08:39 AM
be fairly while we talk about the players

That's all I'm saying.


I think.

drs23
06-23-2010, 10:14 AM
be fairly while we talk about the players

Huh? Is this another one-liner jersey hawker?

76Texan
06-23-2010, 11:19 AM
The Miami game is a fun one to watch. I've watched it a couple of times already. Miami's defense wasn't much of nothing in the first half, I don't remember being in goal to go, and not getting it done.

There were a lot of things that didn't pay-out in the second-half of that game, so maybe there was something there. But in the first half, our OL destroyed Miami. Schaub had all day to throw, and a mile to step into the pocket. There were cut-back lanes and perimeter blocks galore.. awesome.

Miami was in the hunt as well that game, so I know they brought their A-Game. AFC East is "supposedly" the other tough AFC division. We were 3-1 against them in 2009. Had we played NYJets in week 14 or 15, I think that game would have gone totally differently. I understand playing the Patriots week 1 would have been different as well... that's not my point.

There was goal and go situation but Myers didn't get pushed back into the RB in those plays.

There were a few instances in which Myers was a little weak (but they were far and few in between as compared to the other O-linemen).

There was one instance that I'm sure Hou-Tex (and many others with prejudice in mind) thought Myers look real bad.
It was an outside zone run in which the blockers seek to stretch the field horizontally (instead of trying to push vertically as normal).
I'm sure those who had their "hater glasses" on would be delighted to point at it and say "see, see, that guy is weak like a ... whatever".
But sadly, they chose to look at the wrong place.
The guys who should be "blamed" in that play were Winston and Caldwell who lost a double team on a defender, and then Caldwell missed the second level block when he slipped off the double team. (Winston wasn't able to hold off the defender as Caldwell slipped off).
Chris Brown managed to gain 9 yards despite that (mostly on his own, and some with a great block by AJ).

HOU-TEX
06-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Hou-Tex, you're ready to bring up the evidence to the court?
Even as we know sometimes it can't be decided!

But heck, I respect you as having a football background so I expect you to review very carefully (at least those circumstances) to make sure you have all the evidences before you convict somebody.

The ball is in your court, and I'm ready for the response!

Don't have time right now, 76. I've been popping in and out of the MB when I have time. I do remember doing a write up concerning Myers in this same game quite a while back though.

We all have our own opinions and I think Myers is very poor at the point of attack. He's pushed back far too often.

76Texan
06-23-2010, 11:35 AM
Don't have time right now, 76. I've been popping in and out of the MB when I have time. I do remember doing a write up concerning Myers in this same game quite a while back though.

We all have our own opinions and I think Myers is very poor at the point of attack. He's pushed back far too often.

I guess when we have a guy who can please you at Center, the Texans would win the Miami game by a score of 54-0! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

HOU-TEX
06-23-2010, 12:03 PM
I guess when we have a guy who can please you at Center, the Texans would win the Miami game by a score of 54-0! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was merely stating my opinion just as you have many times. No reason for smart arse comments.

76Texan
06-23-2010, 12:08 PM
I was merely stating my opinion just as you have many times. No reason for smart arse comments.

No it was my reasonable opinion, and no smart arse comment!
We were ahead 27-0 at halftime in that game.
With a great center, it's reasonable to think that we can score 54 points for the game.

Goldensilence
06-23-2010, 03:55 PM
I guess when we have a guy who can please you at Center, the Texans would win the Miami game by a score of 54-0! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

What's interesting to note is where the touchdowns came from:

10 yd pass to AJ
44 yd pass Jacoby Jones
17 yd run by Arian Foster (I don't have the game but, perhaps you can tell me which side Foster ran and how the blocking was)

Not a real stellar on 3rd down conversions 4-11 (Again don't have the game but I'd love to know yardage and the plays on each 3rd down)

What still bothers me is you point out jumping out to an early lead, but the team almost gave it up.

You make it sound as though we had a Center clearly superior to Myers we'd have run to score up. I just don't think that's case. If we had a staff that understands putting a foot on an opponents throat THEN the score could've been run up to 54-0 possibly.

thunderkyss
06-23-2010, 05:43 PM
Don't have time right now, 76. I've been popping in and out of the MB when I have time. I do remember doing a write up concerning Myers in this same game quite a while back though.

We all have our own opinions and I think Myers is very poor at the point of attack. He's pushed back far too often.

I guess when we have a guy who can please you at Center, the Texans would win the Miami game by a score of 54-0! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

You make it sound as though we had a Center clearly superior to Myers we'd have run to score up. I just don't think that's case. If we had a staff that understands putting a foot on an opponents throat THEN the score could've been run up to 54-0 possibly.

I think he is being sarcastic. :truck:

Goldensilence
06-23-2010, 07:04 PM
I think he is being sarcastic. :truck:

I'm sure he is in that situation.

But, if 76 doesn't mind calling someone else out I don't see why he can't go back and review the game and answer a few of the questions I presented.

Edit:

Don't have game tape. Play by play on ESPN says the 17 yard Foster TD run was to the right guard FWIW.

10 and 44 yard TD pass can't tell what the protection looked like.

dalemurphy
06-24-2010, 12:04 AM
What's interesting to note is where the touchdowns came from:

10 yd pass to AJ
44 yd pass Jacoby Jones
17 yd run by Arian Foster (I don't have the game but, perhaps you can tell me which side Foster ran and how the blocking was)

Not a real stellar on 3rd down conversions 4-11 (Again don't have the game but I'd love to know yardage and the plays on each 3rd down)

What still bothers me is you point out jumping out to an early lead, but the team almost gave it up.

You make it sound as though we had a Center clearly superior to Myers we'd have run to score up. I just don't think that's case. If we had a staff that understands putting a foot on an opponents throat THEN the score could've been run up to 54-0 possibly.


I believe 76Texan's opinion is a little too high on Myers. That being said, his opinion is based on many hours of studying the guy play. So, his opinion is worth noting and paying attention to. Fans often find one or two players to mock and blame when things go poorly and he has clearly become that player on offense more the Texans. Similarly, there are usually a couple guys that never take any blame from the fans (Winston, for instance) despite their performance. The reality, I think, is that the oline had a difficul season in the run game and almost everyone on the line is accountable for that. Also, I think line play is more nuanced that simply pointing to one guy or another one as the weak link.

Because Myers weakness is his anchor and strength at the POA, I think he would look much better with a stronger guard next to him. Having Studdard and a White/Caldwell rotation next to him all season had an impact on his performance, clearly. I think the position could be upgraded. That being said, if he wins the starting center battle and starts the season with Wade Smith and Briesel or Caldwell flanking him at guard, I will be encouraged that it will be a successful lineup and he may play well for us.

For me, the comforting thought is that there is significant competition for the center and guard positions as well as better health and an upgrade at the RB position. We have every reason to believe that the run game will be drastically improved in 2010.

HOU-TEX
06-24-2010, 09:01 AM
The "many hours" of studying makes no difference, it's still an opinion when all is said and done.

I admire the time and patience 76 has evaluating tape. I just don't agree with his and a couple others opinion on Myers. No biggie

Goldensilence
06-24-2010, 11:01 AM
I believe 76Texan's opinion is a little too high on Myers. That being said, his opinion is based on many hours of studying the guy play. So, his opinion is worth noting and paying attention to. Fans often find one or two players to mock and blame when things go poorly and he has clearly become that player on offense more the Texans. Similarly, there are usually a couple guys that never take any blame from the fans (Winston, for instance) despite their performance. The reality, I think, is that the oline had a difficul season in the run game and almost everyone on the line is accountable for that. Also, I think line play is more nuanced that simply pointing to one guy or another one as the weak link.

Because Myers weakness is his anchor and strength at the POA, I think he would look much better with a stronger guard next to him. Having Studdard and a White/Caldwell rotation next to him all season had an impact on his performance, clearly. I think the position could be upgraded. That being said, if he wins the starting center battle and starts the season with Wade Smith and Briesel or Caldwell flanking him at guard, I will be encouraged that it will be a successful lineup and he may play well for us.

For me, the comforting thought is that there is significant competition for the center and guard positions as well as better health and an upgrade at the RB position. We have every reason to believe that the run game will be drastically improved in 2010.

Good take.

I'm shooting for the bolded part to be true. I think we've significantly upgraded the talent at RB. Now if we can just get a better combination on the interior of the OL I don't see any reason why the running game won't take off.

76Texan
06-24-2010, 11:56 AM
What's interesting to note is where the touchdowns came from:

10 yd pass to AJ
44 yd pass Jacoby Jones
17 yd run by Arian Foster (I don't have the game but, perhaps you can tell me which side Foster ran and how the blocking was)



The 10yd TD pass to AJ was actually a 4th and 1 conversion just outside the Dolphins 10.
The Dolphins rushed 6 against a 5-receiver set and got burned.
Good blockings by all.
Most examplary was Studdard who actually blocked 2 guys, just enough for Schaub to deliver the quick pass.

The 44-yd pass to JJ was when MS had 4-1/2 secs in max-protect (8 agaisnt 5).

The 19yd run by Foster was due to a great cut back by him and excellent blocking by Myers (key blocks).
All the guys did well.

It was a mid-zone run, somewhere around Winston.
The Texans started the train to the right; the Dolphins decided to attack against the grain (from their 3-4), going the opposite direction.
Myers ended up chipping the LDT, turning him for Caldwell to finish off.
Myers then released to the second level to clear out the RILB.
Winston did well against the LILB with another key block.


Brisiel (it was Dreessen, not Brisiel, my bad!) took on the LOLB to the far outside.
Leach came up just inside to take on the safety.
Studdard took on the NT.
Brown sealed off the RDT.
The ROLB was optioned.

JB
06-24-2010, 12:05 PM
The 10yd TD pass to AJ was actually a 4th and 1 conversion just outside the Dolphins 10.
The Dolphins rushed 6 against a 5-receiver set and got burned.
Good blockings by all.
Most examplary was Studdard who actually blocked 2 guys, just enough for Schaub to deliver the quick pass.

The 44-yd pass to JJ was when MS had 4-1/2 secs in max-protect (8 agaisnt 5).

The 19yd run by Foster was due to a great cut back by him and excellent blocking by Myers (key blocks).
All the guys did well.

It was a mid-zone run, somewhere around Winston.
The Texans started the train to the right; the Dolphins decided to attack against the grain (from their 3-4), going the opposite direction.
Myers ended up chipping the LDT, turning him for Caldwell to finish off.
Myers then released to the second level to clear out the RILB.
Winston did well against the LILB with another key block.


Brisiel took on the LOLB to the far outside.
Leach came up just inside to take on the safety.
Studdard took on the NT.
Brown sealed off the RDT.
The ROLB was optioned.

I thought Brisiel was out after the 5th game?

76Texan
06-24-2010, 12:10 PM
Not a real stellar on 3rd down conversions 4-11 (Again don't have the game but I'd love to know yardage and the plays on each 3rd down)

What still bothers me is you point out jumping out to an early lead, but the team almost gave it up.



It was actually 4-10 in third down conversion.
The nfl playbook and final stats got it incorrectly.

They had it 0-2 for the first quarter, which is correct.
1-2 for the second; 1-2 for the third, which were also correct.
But they had it wrong for the 4th quarter 2-5.

The Texans had only 4 possessions in the fourth, they can't have 5 conversions. (They were 2-4).

And remember that we also had a successful 4th down conversion for a TD.

So it wasn't too shabby.

First quarter:
- MS was late on a screen pass to Brown that ruined one conversion.
- Both Myers and Winston were a little weak; but it was Caldwell who missed the second level block that allowed the LB to stuff Foster at the LOS. That ruined another conversion.

Second quarter:
- Dolphins jumped offside, but there was no call. MS thought he had a free play and threw into double coverage to AJ (incomplete).

The 3 failed conversions in the second half were due to Schaub's being overtly cautious with the ball as the Texans had a big lead and were never threatened.

That was also after MS had thrown an INT.
Caldwell was pushed into the pocket and the LDT #70 Langford got a hand up to deflect the pass.

76Texan
06-24-2010, 12:14 PM
I thought Brisiel was out after the 5th game?
I changed it to Dreessen. Hey, 85 and 65 sometimes can get confusing!

76Texan
06-24-2010, 12:23 PM
For me, the comforting thought is that there is significant competition for the center and guard positions as well as better health and an upgrade at the RB position. We have every reason to believe that the run game will be drastically improved in 2010.

The run game would be drastically improved as soon as:
- Slaton plays at his rookie's weight.
- Them RBs stop fumbling the ball so much.
- It has already improved, now that we don't have Chris Brown to throw an ill-advised HB pass.
- The Texans do not bang their heads against the wall a bit too often.

Goldensilence
06-24-2010, 04:29 PM
The run game would be drastically improved as soon as:
- Slaton plays at his rookie's weight.
- Them RBs stop fumbling the ball so much.
- It has already improved, now that we don't have Chris Brown to throw an ill-advised HB pass.
- The Texans do not bang their heads against the wall a bit too often.

1. With Foster's late season surge and if we can get Ben Tate healthy and reps in TC and preseason our running game looks dramatically better compared to last season because we're not fully dependent on Slaton.

2. I think Foster did a good job late last season on holding onto the ball, Tate doesn't have a bad history of fumbling, and Slaton should be healthy so he can carry the ball properly.

3. This is all play calling. I hope Dennison can bring some sense to Gary's play calling in simple things like we aren't good at the point of attack in the middle so stop trying to pound between the tackles. Slaton's and Tate have the wheels to take it outside so don't be afraid to go into the endzone running a stretch play. Stop trying to outsmart opponents because sometimes in the process you start to try dumb plays ala CB half back pass.

4. ???

barrett
07-02-2010, 07:31 PM
Pro Football Focus has the Texans OLine ranked 13th.

Pro Football Focus is similar to Football Outsiders (http://www.aaronschatz.com/) In that for their rankings they analyze each individual player on each individual play. (Something 76 Texan and I are quite fond of)

So, here it is from Pro Football Focus (http://profootballfocus.com/articles.php?tab=articles&arc=&id=169):

Texans OLine Rank #13

No. 13 -- Houston Texans (Run No. 21, Pass No. 16, Penalties No. 7)

This workmanlike group that don't excel in any particular area relied on Matt Schaub, Andre Johnson and Owen Daniels to disguise some of its frailties. In addition, it's one of the best screen-blocking groups around, which also helped mask some deficiencies. Given the way they tend to make the most of what they've got, it's always come as a bit of a surprise to us they prefer Kasey Studdard over Chris White or Antoine Caldwell. We're absolutely sure that Studdard being the son of coach Gary Kubiak's old teammate, Dave Studdard, has nothing to do with it.

Best Player: Center Chris Myers had a fine season and only a plethora of fine players at this position in the AFC stopped him getting more attention.

Biggest Concern: Duane Brown, although improved from his rookie year, continued to struggle with pass protection. He allowed 7 sacks, 11 hits and 35 hurries as well as giving up eight penalties.

What I find interesting is that their findings are consistent with the opinions of certain members of this message board. Specifically, that #55 isn't half bad and that #76 leaves quite a bit to be desired.

Should keep us going for a few days until something more racy comes out. (Did you guys here that Brian Cushing is taking steroids? My wife says that's why his head is funny shaped. I counter this with the fact that Demeco is funny shaped too and he was recently busted by Richard Justice for watching too much film (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2010/07/10_reasons_to_b_1.html). Now I don't know what to believe!)

thunderkyss
07-02-2010, 08:35 PM
What I find interesting is that their findings are consistent with the opinions of certain members of this message board. Specifically, that #55 isn't half bad and that #76 leaves quite a bit to be desired.


That is interesting.

I think there are a number of surprises in their rankings
No. 25 -- Minnesota Vikings (Run No. 32, Pass No. 5, Penalties No. 4)

Nowhere was there a more unbalanced display than in Minnesota. Brett Favre had huge swathes of time to pass, as most of the line protected him like a fragile relative, but Adrian Peterson couldn't find daylight without running over a few defenders first. The whole zone-blocking scheme was an unfathomable mess and Peterson's production suffered as a result.

Best Player: LT Bryant McKinnie was probably the least-bad run blocker of a thoroughly shoddy group.

Biggest Concern: C John Sullivan was only adequate in pass protection and really struggled to get any movement at the point of attack.

barrett
07-02-2010, 11:22 PM
That is interesting.

I think there are a number of surprises in their rankings

As you may know, I'm not one of the ones who feels that way but I have to admit that my opinions of #55 may be based on a few bad games or plays and the fact that it is difficult to observe the interior of the interior line play at times from the TV broadcasts. But I disagree with the notion that 76 leaves something to be desired.

I think Duane Brown starts slow at times but is one of the more consistent players at a very difficult position that at times is exposed by the fact that the QB has a tendency (certainly towards the the beginning of the season) to hold onto the ball a bit too long. But hey, then again, I think it's important to point out that this guy dropped back into pass pro against the best pass rushers on each team more than any other player in the NFL. It may have exposed him a few more times than anyone else in the league. I think that's an important fact to take into account that often goes unmentioned.

76Texan
07-03-2010, 08:58 AM
If you guys like something interesting, digest this:

In the first 12 games, the O-line allowed 19 sacks, 28 QB Hits, and 87 QB Hurries.

In the last 4 games, they allowed zero sack, 5 Hits, and 16 Hurries.

(Mulitple players can be charged on the same play).
And that with Duane Brown playing on a bad knee (so bad they finally had to replace him with Butler for one half in the Rams game) and Myers playing with several bruised ribs.

Remember, we didn't have a good running game against neither the Seahawks nor the Rams.
23 for 77 yards and 1 TD (3.35 ave. vs. Seattle)
15 for 53 yards and no TD (3.5 ave. vs. Rams)

76Texan
07-03-2010, 09:04 AM
In the first 12 games, Duane Brown allowed 7 sacks, 10 QB Hits and 28 QB Hurries.

In the last 3-1/2 games, he allowed no sack, 1 QB Hit and 7 QB Hurries while playing with a bad knee.

The breakdown for the rest of the O-line:

Studdard 2 Hits, 2 Hurries
Myers zero Hit, 1 Hurry
Winston 1 Hit, 2 Hurries

Playing part-time:
Caldwell 1 Hit, 1 Hurry
White zero Hit, 2 Hurries

In one half of play:
Butler zero hit, 1 Hurry

Did the O-line simply play that much better?
Were the opponents that bad?

dalemurphy
07-03-2010, 09:07 AM
If you guys like something interesting, digest this:

In the first 12 games, the O-line allowed 19 sacks, 28 QB Hits, and 87 QB Hurries.

In the last 4 games, they allowed zero sack, 5 Hits, and 16 Hurries.

(Mulitple players can be charged on the same play).
And that with Duane Brown playing on a bad knee (so bad they finally had to replace him with Butler for one half in the Rams game) and Myers playing with several bruised ribs.

Remember, we didn't have a good running game against neither the Seahawks nor the Rams.
23 for 77 yards and 1 TD (3.35 ave. vs. Seattle)
15 for 53 yards and no TD (3.5 ave. vs. Rams)

I think that says more about the poor defenses we played:

Miami
NE
St. Louis
Seattle

all 4 teams had a below average defense without much of a pass rush.

WWJD
07-03-2010, 09:35 AM
I would question any analyst that puts Chris Meyers as the best player on the O line.

thunderkyss
07-03-2010, 10:17 AM
As you may know, I'm not one of the ones who feels that way but I have to admit that my opinions of #55 may be based on a few bad games or plays and the fact that it is difficult to observe the interior of the interior line play at times from the TV broadcasts.

I honestly don't know if I agree with their assessment of Myers, but I don't know what to think of their statement,
Best Player: Center Chris Myers had a fine season and only a plethora of fine players at this position in the AFC stopped him getting more attention.

First, I don't think he's "the best player" when you factor in all the aspects of a players play... I think he's at best the third best OLman from 2009. I think he's the most consistent in getting his job done. But that's about it.

then, "a plethora of other players..." That's like saying Chris Brown blah, blah, blah, but there were a bunch of better running backs..." Why even go there??

I don't watch the other centers, or any position with the detail I watch our team. I know how Meyers compares to the other players on our team, but don't know how he compares to other centers in the league.

76Texan
07-03-2010, 12:00 PM
I think that says more about the poor defenses we played:

Miami
NE
St. Louis
Seattle

all 4 teams had a below average defense without much of a pass rush.

Sorry Dale, I don't know how you come up with that.
Miami aside (wih 46 sacks), the other teams weren't below average either.
They were not great, but they definitely were not below average.

76Texan
07-03-2010, 12:09 PM
I would question any analyst that puts Chris Meyers as the best player on the O line.

Personally, I'm going to put out the strongest statement I've ever made.
Myers was the glue that held the young interior line of ours.

Including the previous year, Myers would be the one who helps out the guards more than the guards helping the two guys next to them.

I've said this before, but apparently a lot of people chose to ignore it.
In the Jets game, there was an instance that Pitts was *****-slapped badly by Jenkins in a crucial situation close to our goal-line. That could have resulted in a disaster; but people chose to harp on the Myers play that was shown again and again (not even counting the video clip that has been circulating around forever.)

I still do not understand the point of that.
If one wants to show that Myers was terrible in that one play, the point has been well made.
If it was to show that Myers was terrible in all the games that he had played in, it failed enormously.
Let me not get into the "hater thingy"!

76Texan
07-03-2010, 12:16 PM
I honestly don't know if I agree with their assessment of Myers, but I don't know what to think of their statement,


First, I don't think he's "the best player" when you factor in all the aspects of a players play... I think he's at best the third best OLman from 2009. I think he's the most consistent in getting his job done. But that's about it.

then, "a plethora of other players..." That's like saying Chris Brown blah, blah, blah, but there were a bunch of better running backs..." Why even go there??

I don't watch the other centers, or any position with the detail I watch our team. I know how Meyers compares to the other players on our team, but don't know how he compares to other centers in the league.
Well, the Jets, the Ravens, the Dolphins, and the Browns all had good plays at Center.

In the AFC South, there's also the misconception that the guys from the Colts, the Titans, and the Jags were better.
(I will touch on these guys when time permits!)

76Texan
07-03-2010, 12:29 PM
I think that says more about the poor defenses we played:

Miami
NE
St. Louis
Seattle

all 4 teams had a below average defense without much of a pass rush.

What I really want to thrive at was the fact that the duo Steve Tasker and Gus Johnson (the two guys I think had the best pulse on the Texans the last three years covering the team) had emphasized how much the game had slowed down for Schaub.

Now I had mentioned one play in which MS took 4-1/2 sec to throw the ball (in a late-season game against the Dolphins).
But it was due to the fact that we had max-protect (8 guys blocking 5 rushers).
Matt understood then that he can afford the time to look for an open receiver.

In another game, I think it was the Seattle game, before which the same duo had talked to MS the day before the game.
They mentioned the fact that Schaub said he was ready for all the blitzes that the opponents would bring.
And he was true to his words. I think there was only one or two plays in which Matt took more than 2 secs to deliver the ball.

Besides that, he would either sidestep from the pressure, or move up the pocket, or do whatever it takes.
Basically, in the last 4 games of the season, Schaub helped out his O-linemen tremendously by doing pretty much all the right things I expect a top-flight QB to do.

It was why I said it wouldn't matter what receivers we are going to put out there next season; as long as Schaub can keep on with how he played in the last part of the season, Schaub can really, truly arrive onto the biggest stage!

76Texan
07-03-2010, 12:36 PM
1. With Foster's late season surge and if we can get Ben Tate healthy and reps in TC and preseason our running game looks dramatically better compared to last season because we're not fully dependent on Slaton.

2. I think Foster did a good job late last season on holding onto the ball, Tate doesn't have a bad history of fumbling, and Slaton should be healthy so he can carry the ball properly.

3. This is all play calling. I hope Dennison can bring some sense to Gary's play calling in simple things like we aren't good at the point of attack in the middle so stop trying to pound between the tackles. Slaton's and Tate have the wheels to take it outside so don't be afraid to go into the endzone running a stretch play. Stop trying to outsmart opponents because sometimes in the process you start to try dumb plays ala CB half back pass.

4. ???

Yeah, I had mentioned before how the Colts run their plays in short yardage situation. Sure, you need to run inside from time to time; but you can't forget what's you're best at.
What's the use of all these playmakers that Kubiak was so very fond of talking about... And how he reiterated time and again that "as coaches, we need to put the players in a position to succeed".
Just do it, coach! Talk is cheap!

76Texan
07-03-2010, 12:38 PM
That is interesting.

I think there are a number of surprises in their rankings

It didn't help that A.P. fumbled 9 times each of the last 2 years.

76Texan
07-03-2010, 12:41 PM
As you may know, I'm not one of the ones who feels that way but I have to admit that my opinions of #55 may be based on a few bad games or plays and the fact that it is difficult to observe the interior of the interior line play at times from the TV broadcasts. But I disagree with the notion that 76 leaves something to be desired.

I think Duane Brown starts slow at times but is one of the more consistent players at a very difficult position that at times is exposed by the fact that the QB has a tendency (certainly towards the the beginning of the season) to hold onto the ball a bit too long. But hey, then again, I think it's important to point out that this guy dropped back into pass pro against the best pass rushers on each team more than any other player in the NFL. It may have exposed him a few more times than anyone else in the league. I think that's an important fact to take into account that often goes unmentioned.
They only looked at the results. They simply recorded what was going out there, regardless of the opponents, the injury situations, how the QB needs to handle certain situations based on down-and-distance, etc.

WWJD
07-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Personally, I'm going to put out the strongest statement I've ever made.
Myers was the glue that held the young interior line of ours.

Including the previous year, Myers would be the one who helps out the guards more than the guards helping the two guys next to them.

I've said this before, but apparently a lot of people chose to ignore it.
In the Jets game, there was an instance that Pitts was *****-slapped badly by Jenkins in a crucial situation close to our goal-line. That could have resulted in a disaster; but people chose to harp on the Myers play that was shown again and again (not even counting the video clip that has been circulating around forever.)

I still do not understand the point of that.
If one wants to show that Myers was terrible in that one play, the point has been well made.
If it was to show that Myers was terrible in all the games that he had played in, it failed enormously.
Let me not get into the "hater thingy"!

I don't hate anybody. Waste of my time. I just find him let's say average at best. I think Winston is by far the best O lineman they have. There are any number of threads and opinions on this board about Myers. It wouldn't be a sad day for me if Myers were replaced.

barrett
07-03-2010, 04:51 PM
I don't hate anybody. Waste of my time. I just find him let's say average at best. I think Winston is by far the best O lineman they have. There are any number of threads and opinions on this board about Myers. It wouldn't be a sad day for me if Myers were replaced.

Couldn't disagree more. Winston is the most over-hyped linemen we have. He is above average but gets beat all too often. I love it when I remember that all these guys are young, very young by linemen standards.

Yum.
Football season anyone?

thunderkyss
07-03-2010, 05:17 PM
Sorry Dale, I don't know how you come up with that.
Miami aside (wih 46 sacks), the other teams weren't below average either.
They were not great, but they definitely were not below average.

Miami was #3 in the league, in sacks.

New England ranked 23, Seattle was 26, St Louis 30.

We have no pass rush, and we're ranked 25, so I think he has a point.

Coming out with no sacks against Miami is impressive... but they really didn't look that potent when they played us. I'd have to imagine someone was missing.

Again, zero sacks, and a handful of hurries and hits, is still interesting, and impressive over a 4 game win streak regardless who you're playing. I don't think it's extremely impressive.

thunderkyss
07-03-2010, 05:25 PM
Couldn't disagree more. Winston is the most over-hyped linemen we have. He is above average but gets beat all too often. I love it when I remember that all these guys are young, very young by linemen standards.

Yum.
Football season anyone?

Ooh.. totally agree with Winston. But like Mario, from day one, I could watch them play and see what all the hype is about.

But like Mario, 4 years later, I don't think either are maximizing their opportunity.

They both have the potential to own this league at their positions.

gary
07-03-2010, 07:17 PM
Ooh.. totally agree with Winston. But like Mario, from day one, I could watch them play and see what all the hype is about.

But like Mario, 4 years later, I don't think either are maximizing their opportunity.

They both have the potential to own this league at their positions.Do you think Winston could own the league at RT?

thunderkyss
07-03-2010, 07:30 PM
Do you think Winston could own the league at RT?

I think he has all the tools to be the best RT in the league... yes.

gary
07-03-2010, 07:41 PM
I think he has all the tools to be the best RT in the league... yes.
So, why hasn't he yet?

drs23
07-03-2010, 07:49 PM
I think he has all the tools to be the best RT in the league... yes.

OK TK, I'm with Gary here. If the playoff talk we had last season vs. GK actually saying the SB words addressing the public this pre-season (Thanks TC) and they played at last season's level, what's it take to get them to step up this season?

thunderkyss
07-03-2010, 09:46 PM
So, why hasn't he yet?

Good question.

I really don't know, but I've got my assumptions. If you've read my posts in the past, you can imagine how off the wall it is, so I won't go there.

But to suffice, let me say this.

I believe in 2010, Winston will step up and be the leader on the OL. He's going to kick it up to another level, and demand the other four guys follow.

gary
07-03-2010, 09:53 PM
Good question.

I really don't know, but I've got my assumptions. If you've read my posts in the past, you can imagine how off the wall it is, so I won't go there.

But to suffice, let me say this.

I believe in 2010, Winston will step up and be the leader on the OL. He's going to kick it up to another level, and demand the other four guys follow.I hope you are right he is a wonderful person and personally works with my foundation and I contact both him and Cushing via e-mail often.

drs23
07-03-2010, 10:36 PM
Good question.

I really don't know, but I've got my assumptions. If you've read my posts in the past, you can imagine how off the wall it is, so I won't go there.

But to suffice, let me say this.

I believe in 2010, Winston will step up and be the leader on the OL. He's going to kick it up to another level, and demand the other four guys follow.


I'd like to see that for sure.

barrett
07-04-2010, 01:19 AM
Seems to me he's got some physical short comings working against him. He absolutely looks like a "heavy legged waist bender" to me at totally random times. I know his arm's are normal human length and I could see that being an issue but his technique baffles me at times. I question his conditioning or focus because I can't help but notice that when he gets beat he looks out of position or sloppy. He doesn't look out manned to me. Just out played. That's why I think he's over valued. Again, he's very young by NFL linemen standards and those are things that can be corrected. My fear is that he's perhaps somewhat left to his own devises so to speak with more talent than the other 4 guys and that may be hindering his developement.

::PURE OFFSEASON SPECULATION::

Lucky
07-04-2010, 08:48 AM
I absolutely believe that Eric Winston & Duane Brown can and need to play better in 2010. Having said that, there's no question in my mind that the weakness of the 2009 line was on the interior. Gary Kubiak said as much. I believe him.

thunderkyss
07-04-2010, 09:26 AM
I question his conditioning or focus because I can't help but notice that when he gets beat he looks out of position or sloppy. He doesn't look out manned to me. Just out played.


My question are regarding his focus, but I can see how conditioning would lead to some of the same issues.

I feel particularly good about Winston going in to next season, because I believe I saw more improvement in his play in 2009, than I've seen from 2006-2008.

76Texan
07-04-2010, 10:43 AM
Miami was #3 in the league, in sacks.

New England ranked 23, Seattle was 26, St Louis 30.

We have no pass rush, and we're ranked 25, so I think he has a point.

Coming out with no sacks against Miami is impressive... but they really didn't look that potent when they played us. I'd have to imagine someone was missing.

Again, zero sacks, and a handful of hurries and hits, is still interesting, and impressive over a 4 game win streak regardless who you're playing. I don't think it's extremely impressive.
My bad, I was looking at numbers from 08.
But I was really looking at more than just sacks.
QB Hits and QB Hurries are both forms of pressure.
A hit may also cause a fumble, or strike fear into the QB.
A hurry may lead to an INT.
There's also the QB Pressure, when a defender forced the QB to scramble (I can't find this number anywhere though).

Just to clarify:
Miami were among the top defense in pressure overall.
NE were above average.
Seattle were better than 8 other teams.
And St Louis were better than 3 other teams.

barrett
07-04-2010, 01:26 PM
My question are regarding his focus, but I can see how conditioning would lead to some of the same issues.

I feel particularly good about Winston going in to next season, because I believe I saw more improvement in his play in 2009, than I've seen from 2006-2008.

I completely agree. I don't mean to come off as anti-Winston because I'm not at all. And you make a good point too that it's probably not conditioning because it's not as if his play tapers off as the game goes on. In fact he's usually better if anything later in the game.

76Texan
07-05-2010, 11:44 PM
I absolutely believe that Eric Winston & Duane Brown can and need to play better in 2010. Having said that, there's no question in my mind that the weakness of the 2009 line was on the interior. Gary Kubiak said as much. I believe him.
So you believe that Kubiak is right when he called all those runs up the middle as well as those QB sneaks, knowing that the interior line was weak?

steelbtexan
07-06-2010, 12:11 AM
So, why hasn't he yet?

Good question, I hope that you are right.

Stats are for liars. What matters is that when the Texans need to make 3rd and1 or are on the goal line and need 1 yard can they run behind Winston and get that yard?

So far the answer to that question has been it's not happening. Maybe next year will be different.

Why do I keep saying the same things every offseason?

Lucky
07-06-2010, 12:23 AM
So you believe that Kubiak is right when he called all those runs up the middle as well as those QB sneaks, knowing that the interior line was weak?
Kubiak said the interior line needed to improve during a postseason interview with a Denver radio station. Apparently, he hadn't yet come to that conclusion during the season.

76Texan
07-10-2010, 03:41 PM
Kubiak said the interior line needed to improve during a postseason interview with a Denver radio station. Apparently, he hadn't yet come to that conclusion during the season.

But definitely the interior line can improve; so can everybody else.
It was like Kubiak also said that the core group that we have here needs to get to the next level.
Coach speak!

The day after the final game, Kubiak said:

(on the loss of G Chester Pitts) "It was a big adjustment all year long. Because when you lose Chester, what you're losing is a big, physical player that handles three techniques and is very stout on the line of scrimmage. He was a leader, also. So we started adjusting from Week 2 without Chester. We lost starters offensively. We lost (TE) Owen (Daniels), you lose (RB) Steve (Slaton), so it was an adjustment period all year offensively. But I'll tell you what I think has got the chance to happen is offensive line-wise, we've got a chance to go back to camp next year really staring at eight starters because of how much football (G Kasey) Studdard's played, how much (C) Chris White's played, how much (C Antoine) Caldwell has played. That's how teams get better. Imagining us lining up a week from now with all those guys healthy and them starting for jobs on this team—that would be an impressive group to have. Adversity breeds some players getting better and the football team getting better, so even though it was difficult, when it's all said and done, I think we have the chance to improve."

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=6003

So the Texans went out and get Wade Smith, a guy who is totally the opposite of Pitts. Smith looks natural as a ZBS lineman. He's not strong, but he's not a weakling. He's a willing and therefore efficient cut blocker. He's a pretty good blocker on the second level.

Now, we're still looking at 8 "starters" just as Kubiak had envisioned (6 of them on the interior).
One minute, Kubiak was drooling at the excess.
The next minute, he "claimed" that the interior line play needs to improve.
Coach speak, I'd say.

Let's not forget that we went 7-4 with the rotation of White and Caldwell.
All 4 losses were quite winnable.
All these guys haven't played much together; they hardly ever saw the field before (only White played a few series last year).

It's quite likely that Kubiak was hinting the line will (or should) improve next year as the guys come together even more. But he wants to use the term "need" to motivate the player, what I think.

JB
07-10-2010, 03:58 PM
But definitely the interior line can improve; so can everybody else.
It was like Kubiak also said that the core group that we have here needs to get to the next level.
Coach speak!

The day after the final game, Kubiak said:

(on the loss of G Chester Pitts) "It was a big adjustment all year long. Because when you lose Chester, what you're losing is a big, physical player that handles three techniques and is very stout on the line of scrimmage. He was a leader, also. So we started adjusting from Week 2 without Chester. We lost starters offensively. We lost (TE) Owen (Daniels), you lose (RB) Steve (Slaton), so it was an adjustment period all year offensively. But I'll tell you what I think has got the chance to happen is offensive line-wise, we've got a chance to go back to camp next year really staring at eight starters because of how much football (G Kasey) Studdard's played, how much (C) Chris White's played, how much (C Antoine) Caldwell has played. That's how teams get better. Imagining us lining up a week from now with all those guys healthy and them starting for jobs on this teamóthat would be an impressive group to have. Adversity breeds some players getting better and the football team getting better, so even though it was difficult, when it's all said and done, I think we have the chance to improve."

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=6003

So the Texans went out and get Wade Smith, a guy who is totally the opposite of Pitts. Smith looks natural as a ZBS lineman. He's not strong, but he's not a weakling. He's a willing and therefore efficient cut blocker. He's a pretty good blocker on the second level.

Now, we're still looking at 8 "starters" just as Kubiak had envisioned (6 of them on the interior).
One minute, Kubiak was drooling at the excess.
The next minute, he "claimed" that the interior line play needs to improve.
Coach speak, I'd say.

Let's not forget that we went 7-4 with the rotation of White and Caldwell.
All 4 losses were quite winnable.
All these guys haven't played much together; they hardly ever saw the field before (only White played a few series last year).

It's quite likely that Kubiak was hinting the line will (or should) improve next year as the guys come together even more. But he wants to use the term "need" to motivate the player, what I think.

It took till the very end, but you finally said what my belief is. If they really didn't think we had the players to get the job done, I think they would have addressed the issue before the 6th(?) round.

76Texan
07-10-2010, 04:13 PM
It took till the very end, but you finally said what my belief is. If they really didn't think we had the players to get the job done, I think they would have addressed the issue before the 6th(?) round.

We are really deep in so many positions on offense.
I can't wait for the season to start.

I would even be happy for the team if a guy can beat Myers out of his starter spot; because that would mean we found a center that is even better than the one I thought of as pretty good.

You can't never have enough good linemen!

JB
07-10-2010, 04:28 PM
We are really deep in so many positions on offense.
I can't wait for the season to start.

I would even be happy for the team if a guy can beat Myers out of his starter spot; because that would mean we found a center that is even better than the one I thought of as pretty good.

You can't never have enough good linemen!

I don't see anyone beating out Myers in TC. But if he gets injured or struggles, I feel better about the backup situation than I have in the past.

thunderkyss
07-10-2010, 06:06 PM
But definitely the interior line can improve; so can everybody else.
It was like Kubiak also said that the core group that we have here needs to get to the next level.
Coach speak!


Just imagine, a couple of years ago, "need to improve" was a euphamism for we really suck at that position. Now we're talking about average to above average play needing to get to the next level.

(in my best flavor flav impression)
yEEEAAAHHH BBBooOOOYYYYYY...

threetoedpete
07-12-2010, 06:34 PM
The hole o line needs to step it up on passing plays yes we are week in the middle but brown or Winston didn't stop Freeny and Mathis from getting at schaub

He just told you they ranked eighth in the league in terms of pass protection. So let us know when you make a deal with Denver and bring Ryan Clady in and how much it cost you ? They have who they have. Last year Brown make a block against Cincinnati that only a hand full of tackles...all time could of executed to spring Slaton on a screen TD. Dwayne is never going to be Clady.
But he works hard and has no trouble getting people into the dirt on the second level. I can't remember a play last year where Eric gave up the inside move. Which in '08,was a common failing with Erick. He did get beat last year on a few plays, but he didn't give up the inside move last year TIR. Brown's next big move up this year is being more mentally tough and not giving up an unforced error when he gets frustrated with a bad play. Bad play misses a block , next play jumps off sides. Bad call from officials, next play makes a silly grab by not moving his feet for a holding call and a move back out of FG range. . It's the little things that accumulate that get you beat by the better teams. I think Steve Tasker said it best when he said the Titan's game was played on a razors edge. The one where the d was still green and Chris Johnson burnt us early and often ? And Schaub, A.J. and O.D. snatched a victory out of the jaws of defeat. Most games in the NFL are on a razors edge. As we've seen with the colts the last four years, there is no mistake too small that will not get you beat.

76Texan
07-14-2010, 03:09 AM
He just told you they ranked eighth in the league in terms of pass protection. So let us know when you make a deal with Denver and bring Ryan Clady in and how much it cost you ? They have who they have. Last year Brown make a block against Cincinnati that only a hand full of tackles...all time could of executed to spring Slaton on a screen TD. Dwayne is never going to be Clady.
But he works hard and has no trouble getting people into the dirt on the second level. I can't remember a play last year where Eric gave up the inside move. Which in '08,was a common failing with Erick. He did get beat last year on a few plays, but he didn't give up the inside move last year TIR. Brown's next big move up this year is being more mentally tough and not giving up an unforced error when he gets frustrated with a bad play. Bad play misses a block , next play jumps off sides. Bad call from officials, next play makes a silly grab by not moving his feet for a holding call and a move back out of FG range. . It's the little things that accumulate that get you beat by the better teams. I think Steve Tasker said it best when he said the Titan's game was played on a razors edge. The one where the d was still green and Chris Johnson burnt us early and often ? And Schaub, A.J. and O.D. snatched a victory out of the jaws of defeat. Most games in the NFL are on a razors edge. As we've seen with the colts the last four years, there is no mistake too small that will not get you beat.Nothing against you 3TP, as usual. But I don't think you and I, or most if not all posters on this board, should rely on our memory.

I had mentioned that Winston gave up an inside move against the Jags that almost forced us to watch the third QB to play in a game.

I was checking my notes on a game against the Titans where Kearse beat Winston twice. No bad result, but you know how it goes in this game. A fraction of a second, an indecision by the QB... they all can spell disaster.

(I wanted to go back and review all the games in our division, not to direct anything toward anybody.)

P.S. - What I do, really, when I rewatched the games, I emerged myself in certain plays. Kubiak (and Shanahan) design some pretty nifty plays that I really enjoy, even though the result may not be there.
Sure, I like innovation; I just want Kubiak to stay with the percentage more.
Plays where we have more blockers than defenders at the POA.
Plays where we use our strength (including blocking in space) and our playmakers.
Those should represent a majority, but also certain key plays should be reserved (or remembered) for important occasions.

Plays that required too many blockers to function properly, or a play of the sort that requires David Anderson to sustain a DE for a LONG time... low percentage... ditch them. They serve no purpose whatsoever!

76Texan
07-14-2010, 03:12 AM
Besides that, I like what you have to say, 3TP.
I don't know what others think, but I think you're pretty darn original/unique!

GoGoTexans
07-15-2010, 12:14 AM
:smiliedance:

drs23
07-15-2010, 11:02 AM
:smiliedance:

Where are all these TROLLS coming from? Mods, please exterminate :foottap:


Texans Fan Store <------This part!

barrett
07-15-2010, 11:43 AM
He just told you they ranked eighth in the league in terms of pass protection. So let us know when you make a deal with Denver and bring Ryan Clady in and how much it cost you ? They have who they have. Last year Brown make a block against Cincinnati that only a hand full of tackles...all time could of executed to spring Slaton on a screen TD. Dwayne is never going to be Clady.
But he works hard and has no trouble getting people into the dirt on the second level. I can't remember a play last year where Eric gave up the inside move. Which in '08,was a common failing with Erick. He did get beat last year on a few plays, but he didn't give up the inside move last year TIR. Brown's next big move up this year is being more mentally tough and not giving up an unforced error when he gets frustrated with a bad play. Bad play misses a block , next play jumps off sides. Bad call from officials, next play makes a silly grab by not moving his feet for a holding call and a move back out of FG range. . It's the little things that accumulate that get you beat by the better teams. I think Steve Tasker said it best when he said the Titan's game was played on a razors edge. The one where the d was still green and Chris Johnson burnt us early and often ? And Schaub, A.J. and O.D. snatched a victory out of the jaws of defeat. Most games in the NFL are on a razors edge. As we've seen with the colts the last four years, there is no mistake too small that will not get you beat.

Couldn't agree more specifically about Brown and Winston. You make an excellent point about Winstons improvements inside. It was driving me nuts watching him getting beat on the outside when it would look like his thechnique would break down. I've stated in the past that I wondered if its just the limitations of his physical build that he's going to get beat outside at times but I forget that he's young and as you've pointed out, he seems to be improving on specific parts of his game. Its really goingh to help that schaubs pocket presence really improved over the last 6 games as well.

barrett
07-15-2010, 11:55 AM
Nothing against you 3TP, as usual. But I don't think you and I, or most if not all posters on this board, should rely on our memory.

I had mentioned that Winston gave up an inside move against the Jags that almost forced us to watch the third QB to play in a game.

I was checking my notes on a game against the Titans where Kearse beat Winston twice. No bad result, but you know how it goes in this game. A fraction of a second, an indecision by the QB... they all can spell disaster.

(I wanted to go back and review all the games in our division, not to direct anything toward anybody.)

P.S. - What I do, really, when I rewatched the games, I emerged myself in certain plays. Kubiak (and Shanahan) design some pretty nifty plays that I really enjoy, even though the result may not be there.
Sure, I like innovation; I just want Kubiak to stay with the percentage more.
Plays where we have more blockers than defenders at the POA.
Plays where we use our strength (including blocking in space) and our playmakers.
Those should represent a majority, but also certain key plays should be reserved (or remembered) for important occasions.

Plays that required too many blockers to function properly, or a play of the sort that requires David Anderson to sustain a DE for a LONG time... low percentage... ditch them. They serve no purpose whatsoever!

I get what you're saying about not relying on memory but (as I sit here on a lake in the northwoods of wisconsin) sometimes its all we've got to work with in the moment. Having said that, I agree with you.

I think 3tp's point is still valid even if its not perfectly accurate. Winston has improved his inside pass protection. He was still effected as you point out but it is safe to say that there has been improvement.

76Texan
07-15-2010, 05:54 PM
I get what you're saying about not relying on memory but (as I sit here on a lake in the northwoods of wisconsin) sometimes its all we've got to work with in the moment. Having said that, I agree with you.

I think 3tp's point is still valid even if its not perfectly accurate. Winston has improved his inside pass protection. He was still effected as you point out but it is safe to say that there has been improvement.

What I thought last year (around this time) when I rewatched the Packers' game several times, was that Winston's best bet was to build up his upper body strength so he can sustain those jabs to the chest.
He can also work to strengthen his leg drive.
It looks like he did that.
I hope that all our guys join Cushing in those workouts with the hands and arms; I think it's very benificial for them.

We will face a lot of good edge rushers this coming year.
I want to see Winston and Brown do well.
But of important, I'd like to see MS continues to build on the things he did late in the season.
Matt can be our best offensive lineman!

BSofA04
07-17-2010, 01:03 AM
Oline got some new ink...
http://twitgoo.com/18zoti

Gonna look good seeing that arm pushing the opposition on it's ass! C'mon season let's do this!!!

barrett
07-17-2010, 11:15 AM
What I thought last year (around this time) when I rewatched the Packers' game several times, was that Winston's best bet was to build up his upper body strength so he can sustain those jabs to the chest.
He can also work to strengthen his leg drive.
It looks like he did that.
I hope that all our guys join Cushing in those workouts with the hands and arms; I think it's very benificial for them.

We will face a lot of good edge rushers this coming year.
I want to see Winston and Brown do well.
But of important, I'd like to see MS continues to build on the things he did late in the season.
Matt can be our best offensive lineman!

I've questioned Winston's strength at times as well. But it could just as easily be focus. I just know that his technique breaks down at times and that doesn't seem like something that should be happening at this point in his career. He's played a fair amount of football at this point.

Perhaps I'm jaded because he's always recieved so much positive attention that I expect more from him. Glad to see more and more that people are coming back down to earth about him. Now he can exeed my expectations!