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Kimmy
06-07-2010, 09:30 AM
They make some good points and kind of slam his Uncle -

HOUSTON – An adage in the legal profession is that a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.

Sadly, Houston Texans wide receiver Andre Johnson(notes) is learning the NFL version of that saying the hard way. Even after he recently hired agent Kennard McGuire to represent him, the lesson will likely cost him around $20 million over the course of his career.

Until hiring McGuire, Johnson essentially represented himself, using uncle Andre Melton as an advisor. The result of that decision has been a costly mistake for a player who is perfect in so many other ways. Aside from being a great player, Johnson is extremely classy and is roundly praised as a helpful and generous teammate.

Those would be wonderful points to make in a contract negotiation … if Johnson didn’t have five years left on his current deal. He could even use those points to counter the negativity of a holdout if Johnson was playing serious hardball with the Texans by not showing up for offseason work at all. However, Johnson has been far from disruptive. Instead, he missed three days of workouts this offseason, showed up to tell management he wasn’t happy and then went back to work with his teammates.

He did that even after Melton hinted to the media that Johnson was going to play rough with the Texans.

“My uncle may have said some things about what he thought I should do, but that didn’t come from me,” said Johnson, who led the league with 1,569 receiving yards last season.

Johnson’s body language demonstrated that he was clearly uncomfortable with the idea of holding out. The idea goes against his very nature. But Johnson, 28, is also frustrated with his contract, a deal which likely will cover the rest of his most productive seasons. By the time it expires after the 2014 season, Johnson will likely be playing out the string of his career if he’s even able to do that.

“When I missed the first days [of offseason work], everybody has their own opinion like, ‘He’s greedy and this and that.’ They don’t know the whole story, they haven’t been here, so it’s something you just have to understand,” said Johnson, the third overall pick in the 2003 NFL draft. “The crazy thing about it – and this is why I say people don’t know what was going on – when I signed the contract [extension in 2007], all you heard is, ‘He’s a great guy, he’s a team player, he restructured his deal to bring other people in.’

“But now, when I ask for a restructured contract, ‘He’s greedy, he’s a diva, he’s this.’ Everybody flips on me.”

For the Texans, this is clearly an uncomfortable subject. They have a great player who is dissatisfied. Criticizing Johnson in any way would come off as bad PR.

“I want to make something clear, this is not me against Andre Johnson,” Houston general manager Rick Smith said. “Andre is a great player and person in every way.”

But …

“We didn’t give Andre a new contract to create cap space so we could sign free agents. We did it because he wanted more money,” Smith said.

OK, the problem is that Johnson didn’t really get a lot more than if he had played out the old deal – certainly not enough to make up for the risk of playing out his first contract.

Here’s the breakdown: As a rookie, Johnson signed a six-year, $39 million deal, which was pretty much in line with the market at the time. Then again, most rookie contracts are essentially slotted deals and the Texans were aggressive about giving Johnson a deal to get him signed on time for camp.

Where things went wrong was after the first four years of that deal in the 2007 offseason. By that time, according to NFL Players Association figures, Johnson had earned $21.71 million and had two years left on his rookie deal. He would have made $8.35 million in 2007 and again in 2008 for a total of $38.41 million over the first six years of his contract.

That also would have made Johnson a free agent or franchise player in the 2009 offseason. By then, fellow wide receivers Larry Fitzgerald(notes) (four years, $40 million) and Roy Williams (six years, $54 million) had already signed lucrative extensions.

But instead of playing out the final two years and getting leverage that comes with being a free agent or franchise player, Johnson signed a new deal in March 2007, adding six years to his original contract.

The result was basically an eight-year deal worth $60 million. If all goes well, Johnson, who is the only other receiver under 30 who ranks with Fitzgerald, will earn a total of $81.71 million over 12 years, which is basically his whole career.

Now, there’s nothing terribly wrong with that sum, but here’s the problem: Based on what Fitzgerald and Williams signed for, it’s not absurd to believe that Johnson easily could have made more than $10 million per year if he had waited. A six-year, $66 million contract, including $32 million or so guaranteed, could easily have been had.

“Andre Johnson is the one guy who could have [gotten more per year] than Larry Fitzgerald at that point,” a prominent agent said, referring to what could have happened if Johnson had waited. “The funny part is we actually had his contract used against us in one negotiation. The team said, ‘Your guy isn’t as good as Andre Johnson and look at his contract.’ ”

The bottom line is this, if Johnson had been patient, he could have hauled in more than $104 million over the same 12 years where he stands to make $81.71 million. And that’s if he stays healthy all the way through. Under the more patient scenario, nearly $70 million of that would have been guaranteed.

Some people might argue that Johnson needed to take the new deal for more security. After all, the Texans gave him $16 million in March 2007 and he has made more than $23 million total over the past three years.

OK, but Johnson was going to get at least $8.35 million in 2007 no matter and he could have easily purchased an insurance policy to cover the other $15 million he made with that extension.

And don’t expect McGuire, a talented and experienced agent, to have much luck getting a lot out of the Texans unless Johnson is willing to really play tough and hold out. Although McGuire is friendly with Smith, the Texans likely won’t do much more than add some incentives to the contract.

[I]In other words, it would have paid for Johnson to wait.

If only he had someone who could have explained that to him


Yahoo Sports Story (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-directsnap060310)

V3rm0nt3r
06-07-2010, 10:18 AM
Pay him. He took the pay cut so that there would be cap space for Kubiak to bring in new blood but now, with no cap, he should be compensated fairly, not only for what he will do this year or over the next 4 years, but for what he has brought to the team from when the time he re-structured his deal (back to back 1500 yard seasons).

He should be the highest paid player other than some of the top tier quarterbacks in the league.

GP
06-07-2010, 10:30 AM
Here's the most important sentence of the story:

If only he had someone who could have explained that to him.

The Texans are also to blame. In my opinion, they took that deal and ran with it because they knew full well that it was a huge bargain for the Texans.

Yeah, AJ didn't have proper representation. I "get" that. I really do. But there's also the cold, hard truth that nobody in the Texans organization said "Wait a second, slow down. The numbers on this deal look decent TODAY. But what about a few years down the road. We know the numbers game. We know what salaries are going to potentially look like down the road." Then someone else in the room says, "Yeah, but we can't pay Andre what the numbers would dictate 3 or 4 years from now. It would throw the other teams into a huge mess and we'd be the root of it. We are going to do the deal that AJ wants, and we'll find ways to deal with the fallout when the fallout hits the media. Probably several years down the road. This is a huge blessing in disguise, actually. He should have played out his contract and gone from there. If he signs off on it, then it's his mess as far as I am concerned."

Face it folks, this is just how things are done. This is not a kid getting screwed at his birthday party by opening up boxes and boxes full of socks and underwear when he really expected lots of toys. Andre Johnson is the best overall receiver plaing in the NFL, and his uncle worked in conjunction with Andre to essentially hose themselves in the end. And the Texans obliged them the whole way.

Takes two to dance the Texans Two-Step, IMO. Fault on both sides. And really who cares? He's going to get a better deal. The P.R. hit would be hard to take for the Texans, so they will deal with the fallout like they had probably planned back when the deal was done. [/thread]

gtexan02
06-07-2010, 10:35 AM
Lets not forget that Johnson had injury issues during both the 2005 and 2007 seasons. He had big problems in the 2007, right after signing that extension.

Football in unpredictable.

Receiving a frontloaded contract in 2007 probably seemed an excellend decision after he suffered that knee injury and has only become a problem now that he's regained his health.

If he had never played again, would he have returned the money to McNair?

NitroGSXR
06-07-2010, 10:39 AM
Here's the most important sentence of the story:



The Texans are also to blame. In my opinion, they took that deal and ran with it because they knew full well that it was a huge bargain for the Texans.

Yeah, AJ didn't have proper representation. I "get" that. I really do. But there's also the cold, hard truth that nobody in the Texans organization said "Wait a second, slow down. The numbers on this deal look decent TODAY. But what about a few years down the road. We know the numbers game. We know what salaries are going to potentially look like down the road." Then someone else in the room says, "Yeah, but we can't pay Andre what the numbers would dictate 3 or 4 years from now. It would throw the other teams into a huge mess and we'd be the root of it. We are going to do the deal that AJ wants, and we'll find ways to deal with the fallout when the fallout hits the media. Probably several years down the road. This is a huge blessing in disguise, actually. He should have played out his contract and gone from there. If he signs off on it, then it's his mess as far as I am concerned."

Face it folks, this is just how things are done. This is not a kid getting screwed at his birthday party by opening up boxes and boxes full of socks and underwear when he really expected lots of toys. Andre Johnson is the best overall receiver plaing in the NFL, and his uncle worked in conjunction with Andre to essentially hose themselves in the end. And the Texans obliged them the whole way.

Takes two to dance the Texans Two-Step, IMO. Fault on both sides. And really who cares? He's going to get a better deal. The P.R. hit would be hard to take for the Texans, so they will deal with the fallout like they had probably planned back when the deal was done. [/thread]

Yup. Andre was also trying to save himself a 3% agent fee. Melton apparently did this for free or MUCH less than 3%. Andre was trying to be cheap with his money. Takes 2 to tango... unless the Texans recommended or encouraged the hire of Unca Melton.

disaacks3
06-07-2010, 10:49 AM
Whether he's "worth" the $$$ is not the question. Nobody made him sign that contract. In another two years, when there's say THREE years remaining on the contract, it would be in the Texans' best interest to redo his deal.

At the FIVE year remaining mark, the Texans don't need to be setting a precedent.

NitroGSXR
06-07-2010, 10:54 AM
Lets not forget that Johnson had injury issues during both the 2005 and 2007 seasons. He had big problems in the 2007, right after signing that extension.

Football in unpredictable.

Receiving a frontloaded contract in 2007 probably seemed an excellend decision after he suffered that knee injury and has only become a problem now that he's regained his health.

If he had never played again, would he have returned the money to McNair?

Boring and tired attempt at trying to swing the ball back into his endzone. It's pretty easy to negotitate a discounted price but once money changes hands, it becomes a legal issue. I recently had a mechanic who repaired the WRONG thing on my car which did not get fixed. Best he offered me was half off the next job. He claimed that since he did the labor. Kind of like how we don't know if Andre's going to play next season. It is what it is... NFL contracts are pretty ironclad and advantageous if Uncy know what he's doing.

Ckw
06-07-2010, 10:55 AM
I'm just an AJ homer. I think he deserves to get paid, especially with how he has handled this getting back into camp. I wish I could meet the guy someday. Seems like a real class act.

badboy
06-07-2010, 11:11 AM
Sigh, if only we could look into the future to see how our decisions come out....

I wonder if anyone has tried to interview the uncle?

wagonhed
06-07-2010, 12:23 PM
20 million dollars is a lot of money. But Andre isn't hurting for cash. In my opinion, the fact that he doesn't have an insane contract only adds to his legend. It means that football, the team, and championships are more important to him than over-the-top wealth. You ask for gigantic contracts when you are going to play for a team that you don't have any chemistry with, that you don't have much of a shot at the playoffs or championships with. If AJ went to the Bills, I would expect him to try to get $12M a year.

Bottom line is I'm glad he is here, I don't feel guilty or bad about the money he is making, and his handling of his career on the business side is an admirable example that more NFL players should try to emulate.

2slik4u
06-07-2010, 12:25 PM
20 million dollars is a lot of money. But Andre isn't hurting for cash. In my opinion, the fact that he doesn't have an insane contract only adds to his legend. It means that football, the team, and championships are more important to him than over-the-top wealth. You ask for gigantic contracts when you are going to play for a team that you don't have any chemistry with, that you don't have much of a shot at the playoffs or championships with. If AJ went to the Bills, I would expect him to try to get $12M a year.

Bottom line is I'm glad he is here, I don't feel guilty or bad about the money he is making, and his handling of his career on the business side is an admiral example that more NFL players should try to emulate.

rep. well said.

Thorn
06-07-2010, 02:00 PM
Bah frigging humbug on his missing 20 million.

It is apparent our society deems football players and rock stars more important than school teachers, policemen and military servicemen.

Goldensilence
06-07-2010, 03:52 PM
Here's the most important sentence of the story:



The Texans are also to blame. In my opinion, they took that deal and ran with it because they knew full well that it was a huge bargain for the Texans.

Yeah, AJ didn't have proper representation. I "get" that. I really do. But there's also the cold, hard truth that nobody in the Texans organization said "Wait a second, slow down. The numbers on this deal look decent TODAY. But what about a few years down the road. We know the numbers game. We know what salaries are going to potentially look like down the road." Then someone else in the room says, "Yeah, but we can't pay Andre what the numbers would dictate 3 or 4 years from now. It would throw the other teams into a huge mess and we'd be the root of it. We are going to do the deal that AJ wants, and we'll find ways to deal with the fallout when the fallout hits the media. Probably several years down the road. This is a huge blessing in disguise, actually. He should have played out his contract and gone from there. If he signs off on it, then it's his mess as far as I am concerned."

Face it folks, this is just how things are done. This is not a kid getting screwed at his birthday party by opening up boxes and boxes full of socks and underwear when he really expected lots of toys. Andre Johnson is the best overall receiver plaing in the NFL, and his uncle worked in conjunction with Andre to essentially hose themselves in the end. And the Texans obliged them the whole way.

Takes two to dance the Texans Two-Step, IMO. Fault on both sides. And really who cares? He's going to get a better deal. The P.R. hit would be hard to take for the Texans, so they will deal with the fallout like they had probably planned back when the deal was done. [/thread]

I don't think the Texans FO is the blame.

That's all on AJ for having his uncle as an advisor. Do I think AJ deserves a raise? Certainly.

But, he's not going to get it with 5 years left on his current deal.

TD
06-07-2010, 04:03 PM
You get to a certain point and the money is really more about respect than $$$.

I'd feel comfortable with the front office sticking to the contract, but I think there's a value beyond the extra cost to do something. Show the next guy in-line for more money how you get it in Houston. Let the T.O.'s of the world shop somewhere else.

Norg
06-07-2010, 04:11 PM
I think hes also just tired of losing

GP
06-07-2010, 04:15 PM
I don't think the Texans FO is the blame.

That's all on AJ for having his uncle as an advisor. Do I think AJ deserves a raise? Certainly.

But, he's not going to get it with 5 years left on his current deal.

Yes, it's on AJ.

But it's also funny how nobody seems to think the Texans are guilty of a portion of this situation, as well.

You seriously don't think it ever crossed McNair's Front Office number-crunchers that the Texans were going to end up getting a super-sweet deal a few years down the road?

This is like someone saying "I'll give you two quarters for your dollar," and the person thinks "Man, I'm getting TWO quarters for ONE dollar!"...I know that's probably extreme, but I'm trying to show that AJ messed up and the Texans gladly allowed him to.

TD
06-07-2010, 04:20 PM
This is like someone saying "I'll give you two quarters for your dollar," and the person thinks "Man, I'm getting TWO quarters for ONE dollar!"...I know that's probably extreme, but I'm trying to show that AJ messed up and the Texans gladly allowed him to.

"Business is business" is not a motto I run my firm by, but I can't really fault the front office for it. It's how the bulk of the world operates.

disaacks3
06-07-2010, 04:45 PM
Yes, it's on AJ.

But it's also funny how nobody seems to think the Texans are guilty of a portion of this situation, as well.

You seriously don't think it ever crossed McNair's Front Office number-crunchers that the Texans were going to end up getting a super-sweet deal a few years down the road?

This is like someone saying "I'll give you two quarters for your dollar," and the person thinks "Man, I'm getting TWO quarters for ONE dollar!"...I know that's probably extreme, but I'm trying to show that AJ messed up and the Texans gladly allowed him to. The man is making quite a bit of money. HE hired Unca' for (I've heard reported 1%) less $$ than a legit agent. He's nowhere NEAR a poor house, nor even the lower echelon at his position. He's not the first player to outperform his contract and he won't be the last. The Texans are guilty of NOTHING in this case. They negotiated in good faith and Andre signed on the dotted line. I absolutely LOVE the guy as a player and a person, but HE put himself in this situation. Nobody FORCED him to use his Uncle OR to sign the offer from the Texans.

As I said before, in another two years, the Texans should try to ensure that AJ (if still healthy) is among the highest paid WRs in the game. Until then, the Texans don't need to break new ground by re-working a very young deal.

SheTexan
06-07-2010, 05:28 PM
Bah frigging humbug on his missing 20 million.

It is apparent our society deems football players and rock stars more important than school teachers, policemen and military servicemen.

Can you add a NURSE to that list Thorn? From Jan to May I have to work every stinking overtime hour I can to pay those outragous prices for season tickets, just so I can see my fav team play ball. I'm not complaining, I do it because I love the team, and the game of football. BUT, that 4000+ bucks I plunk down every Spring is chicken scratch to football players, and they still want to complain because someone else might be making MORE millions than they are!! So sorry if I don't feel SORRY for any of them! They make more in a year than I'd see in 10 lifetimes!!

Ckw
06-07-2010, 05:33 PM
You get to a certain point and the money is really more about respect than $$$.

I'd feel comfortable with the front office sticking to the contract, but I think there's a value beyond the extra cost to do something. Show the next guy in-line for more money how you get it in Houston. Let the T.O.'s of the world shop somewhere else.

This.

It isn't about the money; it is about the respect. When you are the best at what you do, you deserve to be compensated like the best.

I agree completely that athletes, actors, and the like make far too much money, and our society certainly is in need of reevaluating our stance on celebrity salaries, but it is what it is. We don't need an angry, upset, or disrespected Andre on this team. I'm surprised so many of you don't see that. I understand this does not need to become a precedent, but AJ is no ordinary player. A guy like him comes along once a decade. Pay him what the market says he deserves.

Carr Bombed
06-07-2010, 05:36 PM
Pay him. He took the pay cut so that there would be cap space for Kubiak to bring in new blood but now, with no cap, he should be compensated fairly, not only for what he will do this year or over the next 4 years, but for what he has brought to the team from when the time he re-structured his deal (back to back 1500 yard seasons).

He should be the highest paid player other than some of the top tier quarterbacks in the league.

Nobody (and I mean nobody, not Andre, not the Texans' brass, and not any fan on this site) bitched about the contract when it was signed, so why start now?

Houston would be stupid to rip up his contract with 5 years remaining...every decent player in that locker room would be wanting a new contract.

thunderkyss
06-07-2010, 05:55 PM
I think this is the goofiest BS story I've read in quite a while. & anybody agreeing with this clown are the sheep that blindly follow where ever the media leads.

He frames the story as if Andre was being impatient, when that wasn't the case at all. The Texans approached him, and Andre was doing a solid helping the team with salary cap issues.

He also doesn't take into account the contract AJ will get either this year or next.

And lastly, The contract Andre signed in '07 was richer than the contract Steve Smith signed in '07. This was a year after Steve Smith led the league in receiving yards, receptions, and TDs, becoming one of four (I believe) to have ever done it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But prior to the "new" contract, Andre was making about $7.5M/yr... If Andre gets a new contract this year, he would have effectively played the last three years for about $7.5M/yr....

Maybe Rick Smith and Andre aren't on the same page... but I think Andre was looking at the new contract simply as manipulating the numbers to fit under the cap, and he expected another restructuring now. He's owed $34M for the next 5 years. Give the man a $22M Bonus that can go completely against this year. Then reduce his salary over the next 5 to $2.5M... same money, but Andre doesn't have to worry about getting hurt. He'll play his game, he'll have his money, we'll win our Super Bowl.

Lucky
06-07-2010, 10:27 PM
He frames the story as if Andre was being impatient, when that wasn't the case at all. The Texans approached him, and Andre was doing a solid helping the team with salary cap issues.
That's exactly right. All he had was 2 years to get to free agency. And he would have made $13 million over those two seasons. I still think this all goes away if the Texans just guarantee the remainder of Johnson's rookie contract. Why not? He's earned it.

I'm forever baffled by fans who complain about the salaries of athletes. If it disturbs you that much, don't go to the games. Don't buy the products that are advertised. Just don't live in an illusion that these players are taking money out of your pocket. Whether AJ gets a raise or not, you will be charged the same amount. And that is whatever the market bears. If you want to see the game, you have to write that check. What Andre Johnson is or isn't paid has nothing to do with it.

JB
06-07-2010, 10:39 PM
That's exactly right. All he had was 2 years to get to free agency. And he would have made $13 million over those two seasons. I still think this all goes away if the Texans just guarantee the remainder of Johnson's rookie contract. Why not? He's earned it.

I'm forever baffled by fans who complain about the salaries of athletes. If it disturbs you that much, don't go to the games. Don't buy the products that are advertised. Just don't live in an illusion that these players are taking money out of your pocket. Whether AJ gets a raise or not, you will be charged the same amount. And that is whatever the market bears. If you want to see the game, you have to write that check. What Andre Johnson is or isn't paid has nothing to do with it.

This is a really good post, and very well said.

Hooston Texan
06-07-2010, 11:06 PM
That's exactly right. All he had was 2 years to get to free agency. And he would have made $13 million over those two seasons. I still think this all goes away if the Texans just guarantee the remainder of Johnson's rookie contract. Why not? He's earned it.

I'm forever baffled by fans who complain about the salaries of athletes. If it disturbs you that much, don't go to the games. Don't buy the products that are advertised. Just don't live in an illusion that these players are taking money out of your pocket. Whether AJ gets a raise or not, you will be charged the same amount. And that is whatever the market bears. If you want to see the game, you have to write that check. What Andre Johnson is or isn't paid has nothing to do with it.

I don't care what AJ makes; I just want the Texans to have every conceivable advantage in the quest for winning. Even though we are moving into a post-cap world, teams will always have budgets, so those teams who successfully pay players below-market contract deals are going to have an edge.

This is what must drive GMs to distraction: players demand long term deals and then complain when their long-term deal becomes obsolete down the road. Or, you structure a deal with big money in year 1 and then modest salaries in years 3-4. Overall, the deal is favorable to the player, but many players, when they get to the low years later in the contract start complaining as if they forgot about the above-market bonuses they got early in the deal. Yes, teams can cut players under contract, but everyone knows that going into negotiations, which is why guaranteed money and early-year contract money are so critical.

AJ got to reap the benefits of a near free-agent deal two years before he otherwise would have gotten it. And, recall, that he did this after scoring only 17 TDs in his first four seasons. Sure, he was held back by Ocho Stinko, but teams give big money to performances, not promise. The Texans made a leap of faith that AJ would indeed blossom with a real QB, and a few weeks after signing the deal with AJ, they went out got just such a QB.

AJ's contract was fair when he signed it. When the Cards later went nuts with Fitz and then Jerrah went even loonier with Roy Williams, the market changed. Players under long term deals are taking a risk of that happening. The best way to avoid that risk is to sign only one year deals. Of course, that leads to other risks.

That said, I don't hate AJ. I just don't want his somewhat (but not totally) ill-founded distaste for his contract to hurt the team going forward--either by turning a star into a malcontent or forever subjecting the team to ever-escalating demands from its under-contract players whenever they raise their level of play.

eriadoc
06-07-2010, 11:45 PM
I'm forever baffled by fans who complain about the salaries of athletes. If it disturbs you that much, don't go to the games. Don't buy the products that are advertised. Just don't live in an illusion that these players are taking money out of your pocket. Whether AJ gets a raise or not, you will be charged the same amount. And that is whatever the market bears. If you want to see the game, you have to write that check. What Andre Johnson is or isn't paid has nothing to do with it.

Ehh, sort of. What Andre Johnson is paid is a reflection of what the market bears, so yeah, his pay does affect your ticket prices. It doesn't really matter, though, because the only people who can affect what the market bears are the fans, and they'll pay their last dime to a mediocre team (except in Chicago, where they pay to watch the Cubs).

That doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of AJ's salary, but I wanted to point that out.

NitroGSXR
06-07-2010, 11:53 PM
Ehh, sort of. What Andre Johnson is paid is a reflection of what the market bears, so yeah, his pay does affect your ticket prices. It doesn't really matter, though, because the only people who can affect what the market bears are the fans, and they'll pay their last dime to a mediocre team (except in Chicago, where they pay to watch the Cubs).

That doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of AJ's salary, but I wanted to point that out.

Granted, I sit up high but $35 per person is a bargain these days. If Andre's able to generate an $80,000,000 dollar contract from that $35 then more power to him. All I care about is that I feel that I'm getting my money's worth per game. Especially when you factor in the extra 5 hours of tailgating. Point being? I don't care about the sizes of their paychecks. I just care about how much is being taken from me. I'm getting a helluva bang for my $35.

Thorn
06-08-2010, 05:45 AM
I'm forever baffled by fans who complain about the salaries of athletes.

I guess that would be me. My complaint was not specifically about the salary itself, but about a society that financially values pro athletes more than school teachers. Or nurses. :)

To use a worn out phrase, it is what it is. The market will bear athletes making millions of dollars, but an ordinary school teacher who is supposed to be instructing your children will never see anything remotely close to that. And that is my point. It is simply an observation on society as a whole and what our values are. Not AJ, not the Texans or the NFL, but American society and what it deems as economically significant.

Lucky
06-08-2010, 06:25 AM
I guess that would be me. My complaint was not specifically about the salary itself, but about a society that financially values pro athletes more than school teachers. Or nurses. :)

If sports and entertainment did not exist, would teachers and nurses be better compensated for their efforts? I don't see a correlation. I guess you could demand that the government and your insurance company take your entertainment dollar. Even then, you would not have control over how they spent the extra cash. There's really no connection between the two, but some fans will consistently bring up the argument. Just odd.

ChampionTexan
06-08-2010, 07:08 AM
I guess that would be me. My complaint was not specifically about the salary itself, but about a society that financially values pro athletes more than school teachers. Or nurses. :)

To use a worn out phrase, it is what it is. The market will bear athletes making millions of dollars, but an ordinary school teacher who is supposed to be instructing your children will never see anything remotely close to that. And that is my point. It is simply an observation on society as a whole and what our values are. Not AJ, not the Texans or the NFL, but American society and what it deems as economically significant.

If sports and entertainment did not exist, would teachers and nurses be better compensated for their efforts? I don't see a correlation. I guess you could demand that the government and your insurance company take your entertainment dollar. Even then, you would not have control over how they spent the extra cash. There's really no connection between the two, but some fans will consistently bring up the argument. Just odd.

Given the extremely large number of teachers in America, and the extremely small number of elite athletes who make multi-million dollar salaries, I would imagine the cumulative salaries of teachers (and nurses, and a number of other professions with similar value) dwarfs the cumulative salaries of professional athletes.

If you get past the individual and focus on the profession as a whole, we place a far greater value on teaching and nursing than we do sports entertainment.

SheTexan
06-08-2010, 07:24 AM
[quote=ChampionTexan;1448949
If you get past the individual and focus on the profession as a whole, we place a far greater value on teaching and nursing than we do sports entertainment.[/quote]

Maybe we all need agents! :)

thunderkyss
06-08-2010, 07:46 AM
I guess that would be me. My complaint was not specifically about the salary itself, but about a society that financially values pro athletes more than school teachers. Or nurses. :)

To use a worn out phrase, it is what it is. The market will bear athletes making millions of dollars, but an ordinary school teacher who is supposed to be instructing your children will never see anything remotely close to that. And that is my point. It is simply an observation on society as a whole and what our values are. Not AJ, not the Texans or the NFL, but American society and what it deems as economically significant.

Let the government take over sports... watch those salaries drop.

But so will the competencies of the athletes.

SAMURAITEXAN
06-08-2010, 09:43 AM
Allot some of his current contract money and apply that to say next few years to make the annual amount close to top WR earning and renogotiate his contract in a few years.

Go Texans!!!

V3rm0nt3r
06-08-2010, 11:06 AM
Nobody (and I mean nobody, not Andre, not the Texans' brass, and not any fan on this site) bitched about the contract when it was signed, so why start now?

Houston would be stupid to rip up his contract with 5 years remaining...every decent player in that locker room would be wanting a new contract.

I don't think that last part is true at all. Nobody's done what Dre's done for this team. Very few have been here as long as he has and I think the players would see that. If they restructure his deal I think that players will see that McNair and Smith know how to keep their players happy, a feeling that has not been voiced by some of our other good players (i.e. DeMeco, Dunta (doesn't really count), OD).

thunderkyss
06-08-2010, 12:20 PM
Nobody (and I mean nobody, not Andre, not the Texans' brass, and not any fan on this site) bitched about the contract when it was signed, so why start now?

Houston would be stupid to rip up his contract with 5 years remaining...

Really?

If they restructure his current contract, $20 million bonus, then reduce his salary to $2.5M over the next 5 years... would that be so bad?

badboy
06-08-2010, 12:31 PM
Really?

If they restructure his current contract, $20 million bonus, then reduce his salary to $2.5M over the next 5 years... would that be so bad?and then in two years he can come back wanting new contract to increase his annual salary. AJ did get upfront money when he re-negotiated his latest contract.

To address other comments in this thread by other posters, some have stated that AJ took less $ to benefit Texans going after other player and help on the cap. Kubiak denied that. He saif AJ wanted more $ and he got it.

thunderkyss
06-08-2010, 12:56 PM
and then in two years he can come back wanting new contract to increase his annual salary. AJ did get upfront money when he re-negotiated his latest contract.

To address other comments in this thread by other posters, some have stated that AJ took less $ to benefit Texans going after other player and help on the cap. Kubiak denied that. He saif AJ wanted more $ and he got it.

I think it was Rick Smith who denied it.

Either way, if you look at it, the money he got over the last three years, is not much different than the money he would have got over the last 2 years of his rookie deal (plus an extra year).

& I understand everyones position, they are worried that AJ will want another contract 2 years from now, or three years from now. Or other players will want a new deal or something similar.

But when they prove they are the best at their position 2 years in a row, they can say something.

Second Honeymoon
06-08-2010, 01:44 PM
AJ signs team friendly deal to allow team to pursue free agents
team pinches pennies and goes into profit mode instead of trying to improve team

is anyone really that surprised that AJ is upset. his point is if they arent going to spend the money he helped them save, then why should he take a paycut if the Texans aren't going to fulfill their end of the bargain.

luckily for the Texans, AJ is an honorable guy and he isn't going to try and disrupt the team, but i can tell you one thing. if we regress this year and if all the inactivity comes back to bite the Texans in the ass, AJ is going to be looking to leave Houston because he wants to win and the Texans front office and ownership is more concerned about making money than winning a championship.

and don't give me that BS that they are committed just because they say they are. talk is cheap. their actions show that they are more than happy with 9-7 and that they feel they can win with what they have....which is total pie in the sky thinking. this team has less talent than last years team and has more question marks going into this year than last year. that isn't how you improve and it isn't how you tool your team up to win a championship.

6-10 here we come....thanks to Bob's greed and Kubiak's ineptitude as a head coach and when we are circling the drain at midseason, don't act like you knew this was coming. a lot of yall are still punchdrunk from the intoxication of a 9-7 season.

FIRE KUBIAK AND COMMIT TO WINNING NOT JUST BEING COMPETITIVE

truth hurts but flame all you want, flamers

Thorn
06-08-2010, 01:46 PM
I'm glad SH is posting in this thread, at least now I'm not the most hated poster for this one. LOL

small nizzle
06-08-2010, 02:00 PM
I say trade AJ&Swab for chris johnson&vince young

i also would have jumped all over that big ben for schaub trade on draft day. steelers were wanting a top 10 pick. schaub is defineately worth that

so what if big ben likes girls, we all do (unless youre gay) big ben is mobile and tough and a winner

andre johnson is great but chris johnson might be the best of all time rb,plus vy is a winner also

Second Honeymoon
06-08-2010, 02:01 PM
I'm glad SH is posting in this thread, at least now I'm not the most hated poster for this one. LOL

i have been hated before only to be vindicated, so i don't worry about being hated.

as long as i am right...and of course, i am right....yet again.

these guys are the same guys that thought David Carr was a good QB and blamed everyone but the waterboy for his epic failure, so excuse me if i take them with a grain of salt. KT, Tkyss, Vinny, TC, HF, Nitro, icak, and steelb, and yourself, and a few others are the only people I can take seriously regarding the Texans. The rest all 'bleed battle red' and say I am an ahole and a bad fan (or worse) yet have no actual objectivity towards their team.

this offseason has been very fast and the season is almost here, so we will see how things go once the season starts but i am not expecting much. I hope I am wrong, I truly do, but I am not holding my breath. This season is the 2010 Money Grab season for the Texans and all involved. They already have built-in excuses of Cush's suspension, Kubiak being an awful head coach, and of course "wah wah wah, our schedule is hard, wah wah wah"

it seems like a lot of people can't do much outside of homering and making excuses. it takes some of us to be realistic and brutally honest. 9-7 made everything think we arrived when all we did was beat a bunch of bad teams. Any time we played a good team or a big game, we failed. miserably.

you can thank the Rams and Kerry Collins for Kubiak remaining our head coach. If the Rams weren't so horrible or if Collins hadn't fumbled away the game in Week2, we are 0-6 in division and circling the drain by Week 8 as usual. But in his infinite wisdom, McNair re-signed Kubiak. After all, we went 9-7. That is the pinnacle of Texans football...something to be reallllll proud of. /sarcasm off.

Second Honeymoon
06-08-2010, 02:03 PM
I say trade AJ&Swab for chris johnson&vince young

i also would have jumped all over that big ben for schaub trade on draft day. steelers were wanting a top 10 pick. schaub is defineately worth that

so what if big ben likes girls, we all do (unless youre gay) big ben is mobile and tough and a winner

andre johnson is great but chris johnson might be the best of all time rb,plus vy is a winner also

worst...post...ever

http://http.cdnlayer.com/itke/blogs.dir/13/files/2008/02/comic-book-guy.jpg

Texan_Bill
06-08-2010, 02:06 PM
I'm glad SH is posting in this thread, at least now I'm not the most hated poster for this one. LOL

Don't sell yourself short, Thorn... You're still pretty hated. :ahhaha:



I know, I know.... Kiss your ass??? :lol:

Texan_Bill
06-08-2010, 02:07 PM
worst...post...ever

http://http.cdnlayer.com/itke/blogs.dir/13/files/2008/02/comic-book-guy.jpg

Wow!! I'm glad I didn't read the post you quoted.

dalemurphy
06-08-2010, 02:21 PM
i have been hated before only to be vindicated, so i don't worry about being hated.

as long as i am right...and of course, i am right....yet again.

these guys are the same guys that thought David Carr was a good QB and blamed everyone but the waterboy for his epic failure, so excuse me if i take them with a grain of salt. KT, Tkyss, Vinny, TC, HF, Nitro, icak, and steelb, and yourself, and a few others are the only people I can take seriously regarding the Texans. The rest all 'bleed battle red' and say I am an ahole and a bad fan (or worse) yet have no actual objectivity towards their team.

this offseason has been very fast and the season is almost here, so we will see how things go once the season starts but i am not expecting much. I hope I am wrong, I truly do, but I am not holding my breath. This season is the 2010 Money Grab season for the Texans and all involved. They already have built-in excuses of Cush's suspension, Kubiak being an awful head coach, and of course "wah wah wah, our schedule is hard, wah wah wah"
it seems like a lot of people can't do much outside of homering and making excuses. it takes some of us to be realistic and brutally honest. 9-7 made everything think we arrived when all we did was beat a bunch of bad teams. Any time we played a good team or a big game, we failed. miserably.

you can thank the Rams and Kerry Collins for Kubiak remaining our head coach. If the Rams weren't so horrible or if Collins hadn't fumbled away the game in Week2, we are 0-6 in division and circling the drain by Week 8 as usual. But in his infinite wisdom, McNair re-signed Kubiak. After all, we went 9-7. That is the pinnacle of Texans football...something to be reallllll proud of. /sarcasm off.


Finishing the season with wins at Miami and vs. NE. hmmm...

You are so hypocritical. You scream about optimistic fans being unable to discern reality. Meanwhile, you claim to own reality.


Look, if you want to take the position that schedule difficulty isn't relavent. Fine. Instead, though, you want to claim it's not relavent when they are playing the toughest schedule in the NFL, but you use a couple of wins versus weak opponents to minimize the Texans record in 2009. Please tell me you see the irony of this.

By the way, you mentioned 2 teams that Arizona plays twice every year (Seattle, St. Louis). Yet, when we've discussed the reality of the Texans playing in a tougher division than Arizona, you totally dismiss that as an excuse. Which is it?

infantrycak
06-08-2010, 02:23 PM
OK - let's not get into name calling. Thanks.

TD
06-08-2010, 02:37 PM
Wow!! I'm glad I didn't read the post you quoted.

I assumed the original post was a joke.....

......or pulled from a Nashville suggestion box.

http://confessionalouthouse.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ohlower.jpg

Texan_Bill
06-08-2010, 03:37 PM
I assumed the original post was a joke.....

......or pulled from a Nashville suggestion box.

http://confessionalouthouse.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ohlower.jpg

:spit: That picture is wrong on soooooooo many levels...

thunderkyss
06-08-2010, 06:57 PM
their actions show that they are more than happy with 9-7 and that they feel they can win with what they have....

Funny...
I think we can win with what we have.

which is total pie in the sky thinking.

whoops... spoke too soon. :kitten:

this team has less talent than last years team and has more question marks going into this year than last year.

You're going to have to spell this out for me.

that isn't how you improve and it isn't how you tool your team up to win a championship.

6-10 here we come....thanks to Bob's greed and Kubiak's ineptitude as a head coach and when we are circling the drain at midseason, don't act like you knew this was coming. a lot of yall are still punchdrunk from the intoxication of a 9-7 season.

FIRE KUBIAK AND COMMIT TO WINNING NOT JUST BEING COMPETITIVE

truth hurts but flame all you want, flamers

I'm not going to flame you... & I don't have a problem with truth. But if we go 10-6 or better, will you promise to come back & tell us you don't know what the hell you're talking about?

I agree with you, there are definitely things we could have done, to build a winning team, faster than what we have. There are good points, and bad, to building a team that way.

Bob & Kubiak decided to go another way. That's not being cheap, I believe our payroll is right there with the most expensive in the league. It's just a different way. Again, good points and bad.

Now I know you are upset, because you're just realizing the Texans decided to go with plan B, and there isn't anything you can do about that. If you put that anger aside, are you telling me we have nothing better than a 6 win team?

C'mon man!!!!

Second Honeymoon
06-08-2010, 07:22 PM
Too many questions on the team
and there were opportunities to address some of them via FA
sharper,Taylor,bodden,faneca,LT,jones,and yes even Dunta
we took a run at bodden but couldn't close

they needed help and a backup Guard from the Chiefs just doesn't cut it

Carr Bombed
06-08-2010, 07:28 PM
How the hell does this team have less talent than they did last season?

b0ng
06-08-2010, 07:43 PM
How the hell does this team have less talent than they did last season?

Don't you know that Robinson was worth 4 points in our teams ovr Madden rating??

thunderkyss
06-08-2010, 07:55 PM
... we are 0-6 in division and circling the drain by Week 8 as usual. But in his infinite wisdom, McNair re-signed Kubiak. After all, we went 9-7. That is the pinnacle of Texans football...something to be reallllll proud of. /sarcasm off.

Let me share something I learned today.

The Colts have won 12 or more games every year since the 2003 season. That's 7 years straight. Unheard of.

In those 7 years, they are 13-1 against the Texans, 11-3 against Tennessee, & 10-4 against Jacksonville. In 2008, the Titans went 13-3 to win the division. 2 years before that (I think) it was the Jags threatening to steal the division.

I'm not boo-hooing, I'm not whining... I'm just saying. 9 years ago pop warner was the shit in Houston. They took a nothing franchise, and threw us in the toughest division in football. Arguably. The only problem I had with Capers, was that he didn't have the Gnads to buck McNair/Casserly, and kept letting himself be put behind the 8 ball. Bottom line, we weren't even threading water the first 4 years.

Like I said, Kubiak/Smith definitely gaffed on some no brainers... why in the hell didn't we bring Michael Turner in here (totally irrelevant that he & Slaton's 2009 are vaguely similar). Why didn't we get Mawae in 2006? Why can't we find a decent DT, when Tennessee & New York Giants are finding them like nothing.

But I'm just saying.

thunderkyss
06-08-2010, 08:09 PM
Too many questions on the team
and there were opportunities to address some of them via FA
sharper,Taylor,bodden,faneca,LT,jones,and yes even Dunta
we took a run at bodden but couldn't close

they needed help and a backup Guard from the Chiefs just doesn't cut it

All good points... all arguable... but still...

Rey
06-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Too many questions on the team
and there were opportunities to address some of them via FA
sharper,Taylor,bodden,faneca,LT,jones,and yes even Dunta
we took a run at bodden but couldn't close

they needed help and a backup Guard from the Chiefs just doesn't cut it

Honestly, I don't see any one person on that list that would make me feel a whole lot better about the team had we signed them.

If we had signed LT in the off-season would that make you feel better about our run game than you do now?

I dunno, but personally those guys seem to just be really good to decent role players at this point and not guys who would make a tremendous difference for us.

thunderkyss
06-08-2010, 08:39 PM
Honestly, I don't see any one person on that list that would make me feel a whole lot better about the team had we signed them.

If we had signed LT in the off-season would that make you feel better about our run game than you do now?

I dunno, but personally those guys seem to just be really good to decent role players at this point and not guys who would make a tremendous difference for us.

We should really take this discussion to another thread. But in short, They are all winners, and I can understand wanting more winners on this team.

JB
06-08-2010, 08:40 PM
Too many questions on the team
and there were opportunities to address some of them via FA
sharper,Taylor,bodden,faneca,LT,jones,and yes even Dunta
we took a run at bodden but couldn't close

they needed help and a backup Guard from the Chiefs just doesn't cut it

Wth are you going to find to ***** about after the Texans make the playoffs?

Carr Bombed
06-08-2010, 09:05 PM
We should really take this discussion to another thread. But in short, They are all winners, and I can understand wanting more winners on this team.

They're all over the hill and Bodden never wanted to sign here...he was looking for a contract that he could take back to the Pats. Also Leigh Bodden in any other FA class wouldn't be nearly as highly touted.

dalemurphy
06-08-2010, 10:40 PM
Too many questions on the team
and there were opportunities to address some of them via FA
sharper,Taylor,bodden,faneca,LT,jones,and yes even Dunta
we took a run at bodden but couldn't close

they needed help and a backup Guard from the Chiefs just doesn't cut it

I'd love to hear what you discovered while scouting Wade Smith... what are his strengths, weaknesses, etc... Clearly, you've seen a lot of tape on him to know that he's less adequate than a 34 year old guard who was released by another 9-7 team.

Texan_Bill
06-08-2010, 11:16 PM
Why???? *heaving sobbing* WHY???!?? *eery sobbing* WHYYYYYYYyyyyyyy?????!!!?

http://thehalobender.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/nancy_kerrigan_biography_2.jpg


Why do y'all play along with Woodland Doug's silliness????

Element1337
06-08-2010, 11:55 PM
I wonder if anyone has tried to interview the uncle?

His uncle is an asshole. As you can see from the numerous articles about holding out and demanding trades that AJ will come out and say are absolutely false. I actually have his number, because I called him a few months back about setting up an autograph signing with AJ, he hung up and I was nothing but cordial. Chances are reporters called and got ignored.

badboy
06-18-2010, 03:45 PM
SUre has been quiet recently. Think anything going on behind closed doors?

thunderkyss
06-18-2010, 04:09 PM
SUre has been quiet recently. Think anything going on behind closed doors?
There was a thread yesterday, said it wasn't going well.

HJam72
06-18-2010, 05:08 PM
Ya know what? I can't respect this. You signed a contract. The team went out of its way to give you what you wanted at the time and you didn't want to wait. You didn't have an agent to tell you to wait, if you would have listened anyway, because you wanted to save 3%.

I don't think it's greed and I know you are THE MAN, BUT YOU NOT ONLY SIGNED IT, YOU DEMANDED IT....AND YOU NEED TO LIVE WITH IT. Just realize that Larry Fitzgerald is somewhat overpaid. You know how many freakin' people make more money than me that don't f'ing deserve it? Get over it.

I still completely respect AJ, but the more I see the less I respect this little money game. At least you are recognized and not completely misunderstood or non-appreciated. So you are the best and not quite paid the best. I almost wanna say, "Whaaaaaah!"

At least his professional pride gets in the way of that me first--money mentality.

HJam72
06-18-2010, 05:15 PM
I presume I'd feel the same way about all these multi-millionaires wanting restructured contracts if I knew how point-blank, "I wanted guaranteed but now I know I did't blow out a knee. Whaaaaa!" it all was, so not just picking on the one guy who's mostly all class.

AJ, you wanted guaranteed money instead of big, risky money. You got what you wanted....and now it is also what you deserve, because you demanded it. Feed on it or choke on it--it's YOURS.

HJam72
06-18-2010, 05:21 PM
Ya know how much money it takes to make you the happiest?

Answer: $100,000 a year. 90% of that happiness comes from the first $50,000.

What you're asking for will literally only make life harder anyway. You don't want more money. You want SB rings and you need to get your inner thoughts straightened out. You should be more concerned about other teammates contracts and who your teammates are going to be.

...and since you'll never read a word of this....I'll stop now.

thunderkyss
06-18-2010, 05:51 PM
Ya know what? I can't respect this. You signed a contract. The team went out of its way to give you what you wanted at the time and you didn't want to wait. You didn't have an agent to tell you to wait, if you would have listened anyway, because you wanted to save 3%.


When AJ signed that contract, it was because of his potential. He wasn't considered the best in the league, by anyone outside of Houston.

3 years later, he's got some of the surest hands in the league. & he's led the league two years in a row... Statistically, he's been the best WR in the league, 2 years running.

He's playing better now, than he was in 2006. You can't deny that.

True he has a better QB.

But if were playing worse than he was in 2006, if he for whatever reason can't play in 2010, you think the Texans are going to honor their end of the contract?

The man came to camp, he's going to play the preseason, and he'll be there from day 1 when the season starts. .. Not hurting you, or me, or the team, let him try to get his money.

infantrycak
06-18-2010, 06:53 PM
Ya know what? I can't respect this. You signed a contract. The team went out of its way to give you what you wanted at the time and you didn't want to wait. You didn't have an agent to tell you to wait, if you would have listened anyway, because you wanted to save 3%.

I don't think it's greed and I know you are THE MAN, BUT YOU NOT ONLY SIGNED IT, YOU DEMANDED IT....AND YOU NEED TO LIVE WITH IT. Just realize that Larry Fitzgerald is somewhat overpaid. You know how many freakin' people make more money than me that don't f'ing deserve it? Get over it.

I still completely respect AJ, but the more I see the less I respect this little money game. At least you are recognized and not completely misunderstood or non-appreciated. So you are the best and not quite paid the best. I almost wanna say, "Whaaaaaah!"

At least his professional pride gets in the way of that me first--money mentality.

That would be great except for the fact that the Texans approached him to do a new deal and clear up some cap space. Otherwise, great rant.

gary
06-18-2010, 06:58 PM
That would be great except for the fact that the Texans approached him to do a new deal and clear up some cap space. Otherwise, great rant.
This current contract dispute going on is work of the Texans?

infantrycak
06-18-2010, 07:03 PM
This current contract dispute going on is work of the Texans?

No when he redid his rookie contract to the current one.

JB
06-18-2010, 07:07 PM
That would be great except for the fact that the Texans approached him to do a new deal and clear up some cap space. Otherwise, great rant.

Facts don't need to come into play here...

gary
06-18-2010, 07:08 PM
No when he redid his rookie contract to the current one.They asked him to redo his rookie contract in order to clear some cap space. Thanks.

thunderkyss
06-18-2010, 09:06 PM
That would be great except for the fact that the Texans approached him to do a new deal and clear up some cap space. Otherwise, great rant.

I thought Rick Smith denied that. He said it was AJ who came to them. I'll look for the link.

dc_txtech
06-19-2010, 10:28 AM
I thought Rick Smith denied that. He said it was AJ who came to them. I'll look for the link.

That's what I thought too. Can't find a link though.