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View Full Version : Cushing telling the truth?


2slik4u
05-14-2010, 10:01 AM
Where are you at with this whole Cushgate drama?

gtexan02
05-14-2010, 10:02 AM
I certainly hope so. He hasn't lost much of the fanbase, if judging by the boards is any indication, yet. If it turns out he's lying, I think he's out of houston

b0ng
05-14-2010, 10:06 AM
I'm not buying what he was selling in the press conference.

dc_txtech
05-14-2010, 10:14 AM
Nobody can say for sure. But I would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the guy is a steroid user.

Doesn't really bother me other than the fact that he got caught.

gtexan02
05-14-2010, 10:17 AM
Depends on if Im supposed to vote with my head or my heart.

Mr. White
05-14-2010, 10:21 AM
I voted "lying" because I'd be lying to myself if I voted otherwise.

Still a fan.

WWJD
05-14-2010, 10:25 AM
I don't believe him..the tumor issue..press conference hurt more than helped.

BIG TORO
05-14-2010, 10:28 AM
Who cares!

gtexan02
05-14-2010, 10:41 AM
I can't believe so many don't care. Very strange.

Its one thing to get busted for PEDs. Its another thing to be on steroids. But its serious to me when someone lies in the face of fans.

Either you believe him that he did not knowingly put steroids/PEDs into his system.
Or you are aknoweldging that a player stood up in front of the media and fans and blatantly lied.

Grid
05-14-2010, 10:53 AM
I voted "Dont Care" because at this point I have no idea if he did or didnt.

I think there is compelling arguements for both sides.. and I dont think we are going to get a whole lot more information at this point. I HOPE that sometime in the near future he will announce some medical data that gives a good reason for why the hGC was there, something that puts the steroid theories to rest.. but I doubt that will happen.

So my stance has become:

"Either you did it or you didnt, I cant say for sure...so lets just forget about the past and move forward. Keep yourself clean, dont fail any more tests... you will always have the asterisk next to your name, and the hall of fame is probably out of the question now, but you can still win alot of superbowls and be mentioned in the same sentence with the greatest linebackers of all time, and thats gotta count for something."

infantrycak
05-14-2010, 10:53 AM
Would have been nice to have a don't know option.

JB
05-14-2010, 10:55 AM
I can't believe so many don't care. Very strange.

Its one thing to get busted for PEDs. Its another thing to be on steroids. But its serious to me when someone lies in the face of fans.

Either you believe him that he did not knowingly put steroids/PEDs into his system.
Or you are aknoweldging that a player stood up in front of the media and fans and blatantly lied.

Can't speak for others, and I have not voted yet. But it's not that people don't care, but I think that many feel that it's done, he is going to serve his 4 game suspension and nothing we can do about it. Time to move on.

chicagotexan2
05-14-2010, 10:58 AM
I don't believe him. I am still a fan of his, but I hope he doesn't do it again.

HOU-TEX
05-14-2010, 10:58 AM
Can't speak for others, and I have not voted yet. But it's not that people don't care, but I think that many feel that it's done, he is going to serve his 4 game suspension and nothing we can do about it. Time to move on.

^^^This is why I selected that option

HJam72
05-14-2010, 11:00 AM
He just needs a masking agent for his masking agent (Rickie suggests weed)....and occasionally a bro for the off-season (see Seinfeld).

Blake
05-14-2010, 11:01 AM
Here is how I see it. Cushing falls into one of these three categories.

Cushing is telling the trouth. (For some reason his diet pills, suppliments, or whatever he takes is causing the FP.)

Cushing THINKS he is telling the truth, but is not being 100% truthful. (He is taking a banned substance but has been doing it so long that it doesnt seem wrong.)

Cushing is lying to help save his reputation and image. (He is taking a banned substance and knows that without it he wont be special. But wants to save face and gain everyone's respect back.)


I really want to believe its an FP, but the deck is stacked against him. At this point he is guilty until proven innocent.

Thorn
05-14-2010, 11:09 AM
Would have been nice to have a don't know option.

Yep, that's the button I would have chosen if it were avaliable.

Joe Texan
05-14-2010, 11:10 AM
each and every non believer will go to hell

2slik4u
05-14-2010, 11:14 AM
Yep, that's the button I would have chosen if it were avaliable.

Sorry, I figured if I left that out it would have made you choose one of the three for some closure.

I guess my plan backfired on me.

Texan_Bill
05-14-2010, 11:15 AM
Can't speak for others, and I have not voted yet. But it's not that people don't care, but I think that many feel that it's done, he is going to serve his 4 game suspension and nothing we can do about it. Time to move on.

^^^This is why I selected that option

Exactly the reasons that I voted the way I did.

markn
05-14-2010, 11:26 AM
I think you'll find his pants are on fire.

A bizarre and wholely unbelievable story. Quite what cancer sufferers or those that have lost loved ones to this killer will make of it beggars belief.

texanfan2002114
05-14-2010, 11:26 AM
WHO CARES?????!!!! For the people who b i t c h and moan that he has been juicing for years, I hope your weren't cheering for him while he was tearing up the league last year!! I don't give crap what these players do because at the end of the day there are more that are juicing that we will ever know about. As long as them team wins, I don't care how they do it. Between my seats and the tailgates, I spend more than $10,000 a year on the Texans. I pay to watch them win. I've paid alot of money threw the years and all I've gotten back is a bunch of L's!!

If Cushing was taking steriods and has been, then he is doing it to win. If the man wants to risk his OWN life to win, then I'm on board!! Like the old saying, " If you ain't cheating, then you ain't trying!"

I wish we had more Cushing's then the David Carr's because a good person doesn't win championships, and before you call out Payton Manning's name just remember that Big Ben has more rings!

:twocents::rant::soapbox:

infantrycak
05-14-2010, 11:26 AM
He just needs a masking agent for his masking agent

hcg is not a masking agent. When used in conjunction with steroids it is a recovery agent.

Double Barrel
05-14-2010, 11:53 AM
Would have been nice to have a don't know option.

I agree. I do not think he was being completely honest at the press conference, but that doesn't mean he's juicing.

The press conference seemed very controlled, and according to many reporters, it was barely 9 minutes long, reporters were only allowed one question with no follow up, and implied sanctions against reporters by the front office were suggested if things got out of hand (whatever that means).

It seemed so...manipulated and corporate, I guess. I like Cushing, will continue to root for him as long as he's a Texan, but I don't wear homer blinders. There's just something not right about this whole story, but beyond that is just speculation, IMO.

Personally, I'm ready for this thing to blow over and see some football.

SheTexan
05-14-2010, 11:54 AM
Since I'm a firm believer that a HUGE percentage of NFL players are liars and cheats anyway, I TRUTHFULLY, DON'T care!! I don't have to respect a player to like his play on the field. Players cheat in more ways than one ya know, and LIE about it. Illegal hits on the field that blows out someones knee or causes a concussion, and they pull the little boy act saying "I didn't mean to do it!" BS!!!! DWI's, spousal abuse, weapons violations, MURDER, etc, etc, etc. BUT, always an excuse, few ever OWN up to what they did wrong. Yes, they are bound by league rules, and if they get CAUGHT need to pay the price! DO IT, get over it, and (if possible))go back out and play the game of football, which is what they get paid to do. Anyone who has been a football fan for very long should be able to blow this crap off. Much worst stuff has happened in the NFL, and will continue to happen. Much rather Cush fail a drug test than get caught beating up on his girlfriend! JMO!

Nawzer
05-14-2010, 12:03 PM
I didn't buy his explanation yesterday. But I still think if did take something it was before the season had started and that's why the lab found trace amounts of hcg. I hope he has learned from his mistake and moves forward.

Ole Miss Texan
05-14-2010, 12:11 PM
I think he's definitely telling the truth in places.... (lol)

I wouldn't call him a full blown liar, but there are definitely some parts that just have me thinking "really Brian?". I do believe him when he says he hasn't taken steroids, at least around the time in question. That September morning... I don't think this has anything to do with Steroids. I do think he takes a butt load of supplements and this hcg happened to be in one of them. Maybe he was taking it intentionally, but I don't think he's the bold faced cheater that many people do. And I don't think its an overtly performance enhancing drug where he's cheating. I do find it questionable that it's never registered at this level before or after. It could be something that's part of his intake and this time he had a little too much to tip the scales. I'm not worried about it other than the fact he misses 4 games and even more if this happens again.

I don't think he's a cheater at all though.

Trail.Blazr
05-14-2010, 12:34 PM
Lying.

Despite my desire to want to believe him, I'm sold in the fact that time and time again, professional athletes get up in front of the cameras pound their chest, put on that matter of fact face and tell everyone that they have not done anything wrong; have not taken roids, have not done this, that or the other, only to find out otherwise in the end.

My vote has less to do with Cush's integrity, and more about the forrest for the trees concept.

The Pencil Neck
05-14-2010, 01:02 PM
hcg is not a masking agent. When used in conjunction with steroids it is a recovery agent.

Yeah. I keep hearing about how he tested positive for a masking agent and it's starting to piss me off.

The Pencil Neck
05-14-2010, 01:11 PM
Personally, I don't care.

I actually believe him in that I think he was surprised that he tested positive for hCG and I even think he hadn't knowingly taken hCG. OTOH, I absolutely believe that he's taking every performance enhancing drug he can figure out how to take without testing positive. Whether those are steroids or even drugs that the NFL and the general public haven't even heard of is a totally different story.

And I don't think that can be considered cheating because I think it's actually a part of the game that we, the fans, don't even see. It's a part of the game that takes place in the background. I think every athlete out there is looking for an advantage and if they can find a drug that will give them the advantage and won't get them suspended, they'll give it a shot.

I think Brian took something and it raised his hCG as an unintended side effect.

And I don't care as long as he gets it all figured out.

Fox
05-14-2010, 01:18 PM
If I had to venture a response I would say it's most likely that he is not telling the truth, that he was using PED's. It's the most logical conclusion, all things considered and IMO. However, he's always adamantly maintained that he's clean - it's obviously a very important issue with him, and his denial casts enough of a shadow of uncertainty that I think this episode won't haunt him for long if he can a) come back and play well, and b) never test positive again. That he was able to accomplish that small uncertainty through the PC made it a successful exercise for him, IMO.

gtexan02
05-14-2010, 01:20 PM
Personally, I don't care.

I actually believe him in that I think he was surprised that he tested positive for hCG and I even think he hadn't knowingly taken hCG. OTOH, I absolutely believe that he's taking every performance enhancing drug he can figure out how to take without testing positive. Whether those are steroids or even drugs that the NFL and the general public haven't even heard of is a totally different story.

And I don't think that can be considered cheating because I think it's actually a part of the game that we, the fans, don't even see. It's a part of the game that takes place in the background. I think every athlete out there is looking for an advantage and if they can find a drug that will give them the advantage and won't get them suspended, they'll give it a shot.

I think Brian took something and it raised his hCG as an unintended side effect.

And I don't care as long as he gets it all figured out.

I think this is the best post yet

Fox
05-14-2010, 01:23 PM
I think Brian took something and it raised his hCG as an unintended side effect.


Brian said, or it was at least implied, that he only takes supplements that are OK'd by the Texans nutrition staff, who test the supplement to make sure it won't violate the rules of the NFL. Do you believe he's taking supplements outside of that confidence or that the Texans' nutrition staff whiffed? I'm partial to the prior, and would be interested to know if it will continue in lieu of this episode.

drewmar74
05-14-2010, 02:02 PM
Can't speak for others, and I have not voted yet. But it's not that people don't care, but I think that many feel that it's done, he is going to serve his 4 game suspension and nothing we can do about it. Time to move on.

That's about it. I don't know if he did, didn't, whatever.... At this point, I'm not sure I want to know. I'm just hoping that he's as bad ass as he was last year when he steps back on the field. I want Cushlash, dammit, not Shawn Merriman v2.0.

Whatever is done is done, I guess. My statement to Brian: Just don't put the team in this position again, knucklehead.

He just needs a masking agent for his masking agent (Rickie suggests weed)....and occasionally a bro for the off-season (see Seinfeld).

Manziere, thank you very much.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CoZ7KO-h0vU/SSb52-aJCwI/AAAAAAAAAfw/B9Z9yfLiY1s/s400/manzier.jpg

infantrycak
05-14-2010, 03:03 PM
It seemed so...manipulated and corporate, I guess.

One moment kind of stood out to me and it had no merit to the subject at hand particularly, but often those kinds of questions are good indicators. You wouldn't catch it unless you saw the interview on TV. Some reporter asked Cushing about Florio or someone saying he should give the DROY back. Cushing responded "why would I, I earned that award on the field." It wasn't so much the words but his eyes flared and his facial expression went fierce. I don't know if he used steroids but I think he is fiercely proud of his performance and doesn't consider himself a cheater.

2slik4u
05-14-2010, 03:07 PM
One moment kind of stood out to me and it had no merit to the subject at hand particularly, but often those kinds of questions are good indicators. You wouldn't catch it unless you saw the interview on TV. Some reporter asked Cushing about Florio or someone saying he should give the DROY back. Cushing responded "why would I, I earned that award on the field." It wasn't so much the words but his eyes flared and his facial expression went fierce. I don't know if he used steroids but I think he is fiercely proud of his performance and doesn't consider himself a cheater.

Yeah I saw that, I noticed he had some fire in his eyes that makes me really want to believe hes telling the truth. Also, was I mistaken or did he get choked up in the beginning of the press conference or was he just clearing his throat?

2slik4u
05-14-2010, 03:09 PM
I will say this, Im glad we have something to talk about right about now in the offseason. Normally we have a bunch of BS topics and hooplah on the boards at least unitl OTA's but this has given us something to yap about.

Unfortunately its about our star player in a bad light.....oh well, Ill take what I can get (selfishly)
:pissed:

drewmar74
05-14-2010, 03:14 PM
Also, was I mistaken or did he get choked up in the beginning of the press conference or was he just clearing his throat?

Looked like his throat tightened up on him. Happens to me sometimes when I have to speak in public..... just nerves, methinks.

I will say this, Im glad we have something to talk about right about now in the offseason. Normally we have a bunch of BS topics and hooplah on the boards at least unitl OTA's but this has given us something to yap about

I'd gladly take some peace and quiet and nothing to talk about if we weren't about to lose our stud strongside 'backer for four games.

gtexan02
05-14-2010, 03:21 PM
The Texans are no stranger to controversy though.

Didn't last year we end up talking for a long time about being suspended due to training camp violations?

The Pencil Neck
05-14-2010, 04:00 PM
Brian said, or it was at least implied, that he only takes supplements that are OK'd by the Texans nutrition staff, who test the supplement to make sure it won't violate the rules of the NFL. Do you believe he's taking supplements outside of that confidence or that the Texans' nutrition staff whiffed? I'm partial to the prior, and would be interested to know if it will continue in lieu of this episode.


He said that he took supplements that had been OK'd by the Texans. We've heard rumors that this incident may have gotten Ray Wright fired and that someone had told Wright & Cushing that something Cushing was taking could test positive. So there's the possibility that Wright at least OK'd whatever it was that Brian took that raised his hCG (assuming, of course, that he took something that did that.)

I wouldn't really be surprised if he was taking extra stuff BUT I'm not part of the NFL. It might be that NFL athletes work very closely with the S&C staff and get everything they put into their bodies vetted as a matter of course or it might be that guys pretty much take whatever they want and just check a list to make sure what they're taking isn't on it. I don't know. I'd imagine most guys take some stuff on the side but I could be wrong.

eriadoc
05-14-2010, 04:04 PM
I voted "Lying". I actually don't care so much that he was using as I do that he's lying to us about it. There are only a couple ways hCG gets detected on a test - you either have a serious medical condition or you're using. I'm going to send positive vibes his way and assume he has no medical condition.

Fox
05-14-2010, 04:21 PM
It might be that NFL athletes work very closely with the S&C staff and get everything they put into their bodies vetted as a matter of course or it might be that guys pretty much take whatever they want and just check a list to make sure what they're taking isn't on it. I don't know. I'd imagine most guys take some stuff on the side but I could be wrong.

Check out CnD's post in the 'Tainted Supplements' thread, sounds like there's no excuse for taking a bad supplement if you cooperate with your team's nutrition resources.

The Pencil Neck
05-14-2010, 04:28 PM
Check out CnD's post in the 'Tainted Supplements' thread, sounds like there's no excuse for taking a bad supplement if you cooperate with your team's nutrition resources.

"IF you cooperate with your team's nutrition resources."

My post was saying I'm not sure how closely a lot of athletes actually do that.

Fox
05-14-2010, 04:32 PM
"IF you cooperate with your team's nutrition resources."

My post was saying I'm not sure how closely a lot of athletes actually do that.

I would tend to think particularly in this instance that the athlete in question was not doing that. I also wonder how much sense it would make for Ray Wright to be OK'ing the supplements and not the nutritionist on staff. Also, again it feels like Cushing implied that he was doing that in the PC... I'm dubious.

Joe Texan
05-14-2010, 04:36 PM
Hanging out with a friend with a home gym, "Hey Brian try this."
"no thanks man", Brian goes to Bathroom, friend puts a little in his drink
Wham he gets busted. Not so hard to believe if you ask me

MannyFresh
05-14-2010, 04:50 PM
This article right here is why I believe he's lying...had he been more honest and manned up, OK, I'll forgive and forget, but cancer? He's drawing straws there, come on son!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/13/cushings-tumor-excuse-gets-exposed/

2slik4u
05-14-2010, 04:55 PM
This article right here is why I believe he's lying...had he been more honest and manned up, OK, I'll forgive and forget, but cancer? He's drawing straws there, come on son!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/13/cushings-tumor-excuse-gets-exposed/

Luckily not to many people read your little publication...whats it called?....NBC.com?

:sarcasm:

JB
05-14-2010, 04:57 PM
Little note from Cushing's atty

http://www.houstontexans.com/blog/index.asp?post_id=1155

2slik4u
05-14-2010, 05:05 PM
Little note from Cushing's atty

http://www.houstontexans.com/blog/index.asp?post_id=1155

insteresting article. Id like to hear more people say that its possible to create HcG naturally without a tumor.....but oh well.

gary
05-14-2010, 05:37 PM
I am going to go out on a limb and say he is telling the truth simply because I'd hate to go to hell. A little bride told me it is very hot down there folks.

Ole Miss Texan
05-14-2010, 05:53 PM
This article right here is why I believe he's lying...had he been more honest and manned up, OK, I'll forgive and forget, but cancer? He's drawing straws there, come on son!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/13/cushings-tumor-excuse-gets-exposed/

My two opinions on this "opinion piece"

One of the most specious aspects of Texans linebacker Brian Cushing's press conference related to his claim that the positive test for hCG caused him to fear, based on the medical information he received, that he possibly had a tumor. And he says he spent the balance of the season fearful that he had one or more tumors in his body.

It was the moment at which we became convinced that Cushing is full of something other than hCG or tumors. People who think they have tumors get tested for (wait for it) tumors. MRIs detect (wait for it) tumors. Certain blood tests indicate (do we need to say it again?) tumors.

As I mentioned in the other thread. All of this takes a lot of time. The original test that reflected he tested positive for a banned substance was administered in September. He didn't get notified of the results until October. From there I assume they retested him the same way and maybe even specifically for hCG to verify if its still there or if its gone. That takes time. I'm sure the tested/retested the supplements he's taking. That takes time. This writer brings up the tumor and makes a mocker of it like he never got tested for that. Well, I assume he went an visited more doctors when the other tests came back normal. I assume he saw several doctors and got several opinions. One option they said could be tumors. From there I assume they scheduled a test for it then went in and got tested for it. Then they had to wait for the results to get back, form an opinion and make a diagnosis. All the while he's out practicing and playing home and AWAY games. The season is essentially from September - December. He didn't originally get notified of the results from first test until October. All this doesn't happen overnight so I can totally see it lasting most of the season and him being worried about it. I wouldn't make a mocker of this at all, it's a shame that some people would about something so serious... even if there's a low percentage chance. you don't f*ck around with tumors/cancer.

And if Cushing spent the rest of the season thinking he had tumors, he did a great job of keeping it quiet. Alex Marvex of FOXSports.com points out that linebacker DeMeco Ryans, a character witness of sorts whom the Texans trotted out after the ridiculously limited time to question Cushing ended, "didn't know anything about tumors." Marvez also reports that the team's position regarding Cushing's tumor claim was to say "no comment," which fairly can be interpreted as a concession that "it's not a tumor."
We're told that other friends of Cushing's knew nothing about a tumor. So, basically, Cushing was in fear for his life, and he shared nothing about his concerns to some of the folks he knew best.

Again, especially the underlined is pure opinion. But this quote gets me too. While keeping in mind all the time that this takes, him not even starting out the further testing process/tumor stuff until NOVEMBER... why would he tell people about it? ESPECIALLY when you're beginning the stages of testing and you don't know what the case is. You don't tell anyone, even friends of his ("close" friends he's know what... for 3-4 months!?) until you're sure what it is until I was sure. If this writer was in Cushings shoes.. I'm sure as hell he wouldn't be telling Fox or any of his co-workers.

awtysst
05-14-2010, 05:57 PM
As a cancer survivor I have a personal interest in this story. I sincerely hope he is not lying about such a serious subject.

If he is lying and is using this story as a way to deflect steroid accusations I will be unable to cheer for him. I will only speak for myself, but as a cancer survivor I would be incredibly offended by this action. This type of lying speaks to me of a child who is unable to grasp that each lie digs you deeper and deeper into the ground.

I am VERY interested in the Texans stance on this issue.

Ole Miss Texan
05-14-2010, 06:00 PM
As a cancer survivor I have a personal interest in this story. I sincerely hope he is not lying about such a serious subject.

If he is lying and is using this story as a way to deflect steroid accusations I will be unable to cheer for him. I will only speak for myself, but as a cancer survivor I would be incredibly offended by this action. This type of lying speaks to me of a child who is unable to grasp that each lie digs you deeper and deeper into the ground.

I am VERY interested in the Texans stance on this issue.

Agreed, and congrats by the way!

There's been reports about him getting further tests in November (after the October results) and apparently someone close to his camp/family said he underwent tests that turned up negative for testicular cancer. So I really do think he's telling the truth about it. And just from a timeline standpoint, I can totally see him playing the rest of the season worried about this - all the while getting tested.

Double Barrel
05-14-2010, 06:15 PM
Little note from Cushing's atty

http://www.houstontexans.com/blog/index.asp?post_id=1155


Very interesting comments by his attorney:

"We had expert testimony that agreed that he did produce (hCG) naturally," Steinberg said. "And then after one of the NFL experts said it's impossible for him to naturally produce it, there was a second NFL expert who said, "No, it is possible." At that point, I felt as though we had prevailed."

:hmmm:

p.s. Florio is a d-bag!

Houston_Fanatic
05-14-2010, 06:34 PM
Hanging out with a friend with a home gym, "Hey Brian try this."
"no thanks man", Brian goes to Bathroom, friend puts a little in his drink
Wham he gets busted. Not so hard to believe if you ask me

oh, please.

dc_txtech
05-14-2010, 06:40 PM
Very interesting comments by his attorney:



:hmmm:

p.s. Florio is a d-bag!

:hmmm: is right. Very interesting.

Thorn
05-14-2010, 07:06 PM
Jesus H. Supplement Christ, Im glad hes on our team.

So there.

JB
05-14-2010, 07:22 PM
Jesus H. Supplement Christ, Im glad hes on our team.

So there.

And that's what it all boils down to. Like "No Free Lunch"

Mr teX
05-14-2010, 08:04 PM
He said that he took supplements that had been OK'd by the Texans. We've heard rumors that this incident may have gotten Ray Wright fired and that someone had told Wright & Cushing that something Cushing was taking could test positive. So there's the possibility that Wright at least OK'd whatever it was that Brian took that raised his hCG (assuming, of course, that he took something that did that.)

I wouldn't really be surprised if he was taking extra stuff BUT I'm not part of the NFL. It might be that NFL athletes work very closely with the S&C staff and get everything they put into their bodies vetted as a matter of course or it might be that guys pretty much take whatever they want and just check a list to make sure what they're taking isn't on it. I don't know. I'd imagine most guys take some stuff on the side but I could be wrong.

This part is interesting considering the organization fired their strength & conditioning coach "abrubtly".

mexican_texan
05-14-2010, 08:19 PM
He's innocent until proven guilty. That said...I have my doubts either way.

JB
05-14-2010, 08:21 PM
He's innocent until proven guilty. That said...I have my doubts either way.

Some would say he's already proven guilty...

WWJD
05-14-2010, 08:25 PM
Ask Mr. Wright why he was fired. If it had something to do with this perhaps he would now say so.

mexican_texan
05-14-2010, 08:52 PM
Some would say he's already proven guilty...
Not beyond a reasonable doubt.

HJam72
05-14-2010, 09:14 PM
Not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Well, I have my doubts....but they're not very reasonable. :truck:

gary
05-14-2010, 09:16 PM
How many Cushing threads will there be? LOL

Corrosion
05-14-2010, 09:38 PM
Ive heard about enough of this mess - If he did it he did it and he's been suspended , serve out that suspension and stay clean .... Dont hurt your team or your pocket.


Lets just play some damn football already


:fieldgoal

JB
05-14-2010, 09:46 PM
Ive heard about enough of this mess - If he did it he did it and he's been suspended , serve out that suspension and stay clean .... Dont hurt your team or your pocket.


Lets just play some damn football already


:fieldgoal

Ya think?

That's what I've been trying to say. Don't matter what we think about it, it has been decided for now.

OTA's Monday! WhooHoo!

Rookies in for the first time..

Texan_Bill
05-14-2010, 09:50 PM
Ive heard about enough of this mess - If he did it he did it and he's been suspended , serve out that suspension and stay clean .... Dont hurt your team or your pocket.


Lets just play some damn football already


:fieldgoal

Hellz Yeah!!! :fans:

gary
05-14-2010, 09:51 PM
Let him serve his four games and then let him just go out and play already.

MannyFresh
05-14-2010, 10:00 PM
Well I decided this to be the jersey I buy.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/m_antonio1972/toomer.jpg

TexansFanatic
05-14-2010, 10:02 PM
I wish he hadn't done the press conference. It was an insult to my intelligence.

I don't think he needs to confess, but he's got to quit lying right now. The more he lies, the worse this will get. He can just stonewall and it will go away. But if he continues to lie he'll become a joke.

Brian, please stop lying. I'm not asking you to confess. Just quit lying. You're making a fool of yourself and you're asking us to believe the unbelievable----which essentially means you don't respect us.

Just shut up and play and we'll move on.

Go Texans!

drewmar74
05-14-2010, 10:14 PM
This thread is still going?

dream_team
05-14-2010, 10:22 PM
Remember, he passed a lie detector test! Who cares that polygraphs are only 90-95% accurate. The fact he was willing to take one says a lot!

awtysst
05-15-2010, 01:03 AM
Agreed, and congrats by the way!

There's been reports about him getting further tests in November (after the October results) and apparently someone close to his camp/family said he underwent tests that turned up negative for testicular cancer. So I really do think he's telling the truth about it. And just from a timeline standpoint, I can totally see him playing the rest of the season worried about this - all the while getting tested.

Thank you. Much appreciated.

Cancer and tumors are not a thing you lie about. As I said, I really hope Cush is telling the truth about this. I sincerely hope he really believed there was a possibility he had a tumor of some sort and was getting tested for it. If he is lying and using this as way to explain away a failed drug test, I, and many Cancer survivor Texans fans will never support him again.

Grams
05-15-2010, 07:38 AM
I am at the point of who cares one way or the other. No one has submitted any facts that he does or has done steroids.

The positive test was not for steroids or a masking agent, but hCG and only slightly elevated from the standard. The NFL told him he either took it or has cancer and put him through a battery of tests from what I have read. He has tested clean in all subsiquent drug testing.

From the limited research I have done, hCG is used in conjunction with steroids or for weight loss. It seems to be readily available on the internet in several forms. Could this have gotten into some supplement he was taking? Sure. Could he have intentionally taken it? Sure. We don't know and will probably never know. Does it matter? Not really. At lease not until he fails another test.

The only thing that matters right now is that he will not be able to play the first 4 games. He will be missed. He better not miss anymore and when game 5 comes around, he needs to be ready to kick some ass.

MojoMan
05-15-2010, 08:41 AM
A "scoop" by John McClain in his column in today's Chronicle:

Cushing's Second Test Positive, Not First (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7006235.html)

The cloak of secrecy surrounding Brian Cushing's positive test for hCG and his appeal to the NFL was orchestrated by Harvey Steinberg, his Denver-based attorney. Steinberg, who has won appeals for NFL players, was brought in by Cushing's agent, Tom Condon. It turns out the Texans linebacker had two drug tests several weeks apart, according to Steinberg, and not the one test that has been reported since the NFL announced his four-game suspension May 7 for violating the policy against performance-enhancing substances. HCG is banned by the NFL because it can be used as a masking agent for steroids. It also is produced in pregnant women and can be used for weight loss and for the aging process. Small amounts can be produced naturally in the body, including in the pituitary gland of both men and women.

Steinberg told Cushing not to tell anyone about the tests, appeal or trips to hospitals in San Diego, Denver and Houston for tests to find out why his body was naturally producing hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin). I specifically said, I don't want this to be revealed to anyone,'  Steinberg said Friday. Look at the firestorm that's occurred. If we had prevailed as I felt we would and I was surprised we didn't then the NFL was duty bound not to release any information, and none of this would have been public. Everybody was obligated to keep it quiet.

They kept it quiet from the first notification of a positive test in October until the NFL announcement. Meanwhile, Steinberg based a big part of his appeal on Cushing's enlarged pituitary gland and a surgical procedure he had while at USC. He had a pre-existing medical condition (involving an enlarged pituitary gland) that was consistent with the natural production of hCG in males, Steinberg said. They came out in the hearing, and they were documented. We learned that he had a particular medical condition that was consistent with natural production in the body of this banned substance. We felt with the low levels at which it tested was also consistent with natural production. We did research and found out that his was a plausible explanation. We consulted an expert who suggested further testing. We became convinced that this was a situation that was naturally produced.

Two samples per test

Steinberg was brought in by Condon after Cushing learned in October he had failed the first test taken in September. Steinberg explained the process. For every test, there are two samples taken A' bottle and B' bottle, Steinberg said. If A' bottle tests positive, then B' bottle is tested by a separate lab. The A' bottle was barely over the discernible and legal limit pursuant to the policy. The B' bottle got tested, and we were notified it was below the limit. As a result, it was deemed to be a negative test.

Then Cushing submitted to another test several weeks later, according to Steinberg. Both samples came back positive. When we inquired about the level (of the new A' bottle), we were told it was about the same as the original A' bottle, the first test, Steinberg said. We were operating under the premise that we may well get a negative B' bottle, which would render this test negative as well. When that B' bottle came back positive, then it became a positive test.

Cushing was advised by the league he would be suspended for four games.

We tried to discern why he tested positive and why were their two separate tests on two separate occasions for this particular banned substance, Steinberg said. Armed with what he thought was medical confirmation and an expert, Steinberg had the hearing at the scouting combine in Indianapolis in February.

NFL experts disagree

We presented our case and our expert testimony, he said. Our expert said his low levels were consistent with natural production. There were two NFL experts at the hearing. During cross-examination, I asked the first expert and the second expert was in the room and would have heard his testimony and he said, As head of toxicology for the NFL, there's no way a player can naturally create this substance in their body. I've of the opinion that Mr. Cushing had to inject it.' The second expert for the NFL testified, No, I do believe that it can be produced naturally, and I do believe there's scientific confirmation that a male can naturally produce it.' At that point, I thought this hearing is over. I should win this hearing. Our feeling was that if the two NFL experts are in disagreement, how does the NFL sustain the suspension when their own experts are in disagreement?

Grid
05-15-2010, 10:29 AM
oooooooooo!


VINDICATION!!!!!


Who wants to bet that no one cares about this outside of Houston?

Who wants to bet that the media will conveniently not discuss Cushing anymore until week 4 when they will act as though none of this info came out, and at least one talking head will say "coming back from his 4 game suspension after testing positive for steroids".

Who wants to bet that we spend the next 6-7 seasons pasting this text into flame threads from rival teams who claim that the only reason Cushing had a good game is because he is a juicer.

Who wants to bet that no one bothers to show this article to the NFL and scream :scarygirl:WTF!!!!!!:scarygirl: at them till they apologize and fix this bullshit system.

Runner
05-15-2010, 10:39 AM
A "scoop" by John McClain in his column in today's Chronicle:


Enlarged pituitary gland? Procedure while at USC? I thought they were looking for tumors.

Obfuscation reigns.

Fox
05-15-2010, 10:44 AM
Enlarged pituitary gland? Procedure while at USC? I thought they were looking for tumors.

Obfuscation reigns.

Yea, I felt like it was implied they were testing for tumors, since he said he felt as though he had tumors all season. But I'm thinking they ruled out a hCG secreting tumor relatively quickly in November, and the subsequent testing he had in Houston, Denver, and San Diego was going to endocrinologists specializing in cases such as this to search for another endogenous source/cause.

infantrycak
05-15-2010, 11:01 AM
CnD has been in contact with some people intimately involved in the develop and setting of the testing for the NFL and around the world in other sports. Some of the salient information:

The NFL uses urine testing. Blood testing is much more sensitive. Typically (where quantitative, see below) blood testing shows higher hcg levels than urine testing.

There are many false negatives in urine testing. The NFLPA insisted on urine testing.

The normal serum level (blood testing) for males and non-pregnant wome are 0-5 miu/cc.

The NFL urine test is a qualitative test - it only gives a yes or no like a dip stick pregnancy test. The designed break over point is 20 miu/cc or four times the upper end of normal. Historically this test has had very few false positives and lots of false negatives.

Isotope ratio mass spectrometry can distinguish natural hcg from exogenous synthetic hcg.

Any residual semen hcg from ejaculation would be minuscule diluted into a urine test.

As has been stated before, any health related issue such as testicular cancer which would cause a positive should continue to cause positive results or at least extremely elevated levels until the health issue is a resolve.

I'd like to thank CnD for digging this information out. Always nice to have more information.

It is interesting to note that the information given to CnD conflicts with what Cushing's attorney is describing in the use of a quantitative test v. a qualitative test.

jaayteetx
05-15-2010, 12:29 PM
So, if his enlarged pituitary gland or whatever is indeed the culprit for his testing positive, won't he just keep popping positive in the future? If he doesn't, then I would think its a pretty clear indication something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

J_R
05-15-2010, 12:32 PM
So, if his enlarged pituitary gland or whatever is indeed the culprit for his testing positive, won't he just keep popping positive in the future? If he doesn't, then I would think its a pretty clear indication something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Good question to ask. Similar question: if it was naturally producing, why didnt he test positive again or more times?

Wolf
05-15-2010, 12:56 PM
oooooooooo!


VINDICATION!!!!!


Who wants to bet that no one cares about this outside of Houston?

Who wants to bet that the media will conveniently not discuss Cushing anymore until week 4 when they will act as though none of this info came out, and at least one talking head will say "coming back from his 4 game suspension after testing positive for steroids".

Who wants to bet that we spend the next 6-7 seasons pasting this text into flame threads from rival teams who claim that the only reason Cushing had a good game is because he is a juicer.

Who wants to bet that no one bothers to show this article to the NFL and scream :scarygirl:WTF!!!!!!:scarygirl: at them till they apologize and fix this bullshit system.

My apologies to Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.

They deserve better.

Their records should be safe, their good names intact.

They said they didn't cheat while playing baseball, so I guess they didn't cheat.

What if they did?

What does it matter after a nationwide panel of sports writers and broadcasters who cover the NFL made a mockery of our supposed angst over the misuse of performance-enhancing drugs in sports?

Houston Texans linebacker Brian Cushing tested positive in September for human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG), a banned hormone used by some athletes as a masking agent after steroid use.

Cushing was suspended for the first four games of the 2010 season. The only reason he wasn't suspended last season is because the appeals process lasted until February.

In an unprecedented move, the Associated Press this week ordered a revote for its Defensive Rookie of the Year award won by Cushing -- for obvious reasons.

But apparently not obvious enough. Armed with evidence that Cushing cheated, many of the 50 voters rewarded him for breaking the rules.

Cushing didn't get the 39 votes he received the first time. Three voters abstained, and 19 switched from Cushing to another player.

Incredibly, 18 people voted for Cushing, including one who didn't vote for him the first time. What planet were they on?

Probably in the same solar system where Cushing resides.


If Bonds had people in his corner like those 18 journalists who voted for Cushing the second time despite knowing better, he'd be a lock for Cooperstown.

Steroids? What steroids? Forget how Bonds transformed his body through years of performance-enhancing drug use -- just focus on him being the home run king.

That's the logic used by those who voted for Cushing.

You can't be a little bit pregnant, no more than you can be a little bit guilty of using illegal drugs.

You break the rules, you pay the price.

It's the American way.

You're not supposed to be rewarded for cheating, for goodness sake.

What message does that send to impressionable young athletes who idolize the likes of Cushing? Certainly not a good one.

At best, Cushing is a cheater who's running from the truth. So be it.

He doesn't need enablers in the media endorsing his illegal behavior.


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_681304.html

stumbled on this little gem

badboy
05-15-2010, 01:44 PM
For me it is two issues here as well as with the baseball steroids issues that keep coming up. First is the players who think it is ok to cheat or break rules. At least for them I can say they are trying to do it for their livelihoods. 2nd and more confusing to me is the reaction of some fans that it is ok to do so. It is the win at any cost, just add a W to the column that aggravates me. It is not about the win for me. It is about the competition. I can handle a loss that results despite very good play and all parties of "my" team.

gary
05-15-2010, 02:53 PM
Many do still lie even though they know the information is on the internernet, books, and the newspaper.

TexansBlood
05-15-2010, 03:36 PM
What's done is done. But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

b0ng
05-15-2010, 04:45 PM
Wow it's been years since I've seen McClain scoop everybody.

JB
05-15-2010, 05:01 PM
Wow it's been years since I've seen McClain scoop anybody.

Fixed it for ya...

thunderkyss
05-15-2010, 05:38 PM
I voted Yes, he's telling the truth, but I think the choice is worded wrong.

hCG is in everyone's system. It is naturally produced by the body, both male and female. The level in Brian's body is abnormal to naturally occur in males.

ledzeppelin229
05-15-2010, 06:53 PM
Yea, I felt like it was implied they were testing for tumors, since he said he felt as though he had tumors all season. But I'm thinking they ruled out a hCG secreting tumor relatively quickly in November, and the subsequent testing he had in Houston, Denver, and San Diego was going to endocrinologists specializing in cases such as this to search for another endogenous source/cause.

I think the tumor thing was this: He was told there were two options, either you ingested/injected hCG or you could have a tumor. Since he denied the first one (honestly or not, I don't know) he would obviously play the season thinking the second one must be the other option.

However with the pituitary gland stuff coming out etc, I don't know why that wasn't mentioned earlier. Seems like a lot of different stories.

I also want the media to clarify whether hCG is actually a "masking agent" for steroids or a post-cycle testosterone booster. Or is it both?

TEXANRED
05-15-2010, 07:42 PM
First I would like to say that we have all blown this way out of proportion. DROY recount? All pro teams getting reassigned? C'mon, really? This is nuts.

In light of all the fools out there making this into more than what it is they also need to petition the NFL to have the 1970's Steelers cough up their Superbowl rings and turn in their HOF busts cus all of them juiced. I here by demand that two of those trophies immediately go to the Houston Oilers and someone slip on a SB ring on Earl's and Bum's finger.

Second of all why is cushing taking a weight loss enhancer worthy of a four game suspension and Big Ben goes out and rapes two girls and only gets a 6 game suspension? Really?

It amazes me sometimes to see how far out of touch our reality has gone. We are still in the middle of a war that has no end, an unemployment rate that may be recovering but still high, thousands of people who are getting their homes foreclosed on, wallstreet continuing to steal peoples retirements, and our elected govervnment officials who are letting them, and this is what we care about? Again, really?

I also think that not only has the NFL taken their banned substances to far but do not do enough research in each of the products they ban to make an educated decision.

There are 4 reasons HCG would be in Cushing's system, 1 he has cancer, 2 he's pregnant, 3 he was taking roids and using it to unshrink his manhood, or 4 he was using it to curb his appitite, burn fat not muscle, and give him an immune boost and energy level boost.

I believe it's number 4. He does not look like a guy who does roids. Yeah I know he is big and has muscle. Lots of people love to work out and look like that and don't take roids. Wrestlers take roids. Body builders take roids. Your favorite action moving star that "Took 3 months to get into shape and gained 40 pounds for the role." takes roids. When your muscles muscle has muscle your taking roids.

Theory #4 fits best. Look at all the things he does. All the weights and the training and the MMA stuff. I know he is young but damn where does he get the energy? And with all the weights he lifts he needs something to keep the weight off. If there is one thing about lifting a lot of weights its that you gain weight and that slows you down. Plus he is just a health nut. He is one of "those guys." You know, the guy who actually prefers the egg white omelet.

Maybe he did take a steroid though. If he tested positive in October that would of put him in the same time line as him getting hurt during training camp. Steroids do help rebound from recovery. Steroids, if not abused, is a wonderful drug that helps heal many of our ailments. If you have ever had an upper respiratory infection you have taken steroids. He did buy a hyperbaric chamber for its healing effects. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised he took a steroid to heal his training camp injuries. Especially your rookie season. Especially if your Brian Cushing coming into the season with so much negative press.

Also my argument against his taking steroids is that he has not gotten smaller at any point in time. A roid user after stopping does not retain that muscle, easy come, easy go.

Fact of the matter is these NFL players are entertainers. We pay good money to be entertained by these people. The more entertained we are by them the more money the team owner makes. The more money a team owner makes off one guy the more money that owner will pay that guy. And no one wants to watch a bunch of fat out of shape guys play. And yes, that is why only four people came out to watch you and your friends play two hand touch cus your fat, out of shape, and no one wants to see that.

This ranks up there with Star Caps for me. I could care less. The drug policies are there only to cover the NFL from law suits. Just like all the new concussion stuff. The NFL does not care about the players. That is a fact. Otherwise they fork over some money to help out all the former players make what is the NFL today.

I stand behind Cushing 100%. He is a good guy. I like him. He is a solid good natured kid that wants to make everyone around him proud. He has a lot of people depending on him and he is still a kid. At 24 I was still borrowing money from my parents to pay rent cus I spent all I had in the bar the night before.

We all rode his nuts last year to a winning season and all of us where willing to do the same this year. He battled through numerous injuries and a long tiring rookie season that was basically a 12 month football season from the last day of college, combine, workouts, draft, and then all OTA's to training camp.

Now the first sign of trouble half of you guys are ready to run him out on rails. You don't do that to family, and as long as he is a Texan and not beating woman, killing, shooting, stabbing, or making a $100 million dollar coke deal, he is still our boy.

But that is just my opinion and I am absolutely right about it.

The Pencil Neck
05-15-2010, 07:43 PM
I think the tumor thing was this: He was told there were two options, either you ingested/injected hCG or you could have a tumor. Since he denied the first one (honestly or not, I don't know) he would obviously play the season thinking the second one must be the other option.

However with the pituitary gland stuff coming out etc, I don't know why that wasn't mentioned earlier. Seems like a lot of different stories.

I also want the media to clarify whether hCG is actually a "masking agent" for steroids or a post-cycle testosterone booster. Or is it both?

To me, it doesn't seem like a lot of stories.

Assuming that he didn't take hCG, and if you look at hCG and what it does and everything, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to just take hCG. If he had been taking steroids prior to or while taking the hCG, then he would have failed the testosterone tests. But he didn't fail those, he just failed the hCG test.

So, in September he almost failed one test and then failed another. Both had slightly elevated hCG levels. He gets notified by the NFL that he failed in October. He goes to see a doctor who tells him that he either injected hCG or he's got a tumor. So, in November and December, he's going to doctors to see if they can find a tumor. So, he's playing most of the season wondering if he's got a tumor.

During this time, one of the doctors looks at his medical history and says, "Hey. You've had a history with your pituitary gland maybe that could be causing this."

The doctors figure this could be it. They put together some documentation. The lawyer takes the documentation to the NFL and presents it in the appeal. They think they've won the appeal. Blah blah blah.

As a story goes, it's not nonsensical.

The Pencil Neck
05-15-2010, 07:48 PM
There are 4 reasons HCG would be in Cushing's system, 1 he has cancer, 2 he's pregnant, 3 he was taking roids and using it to unshrink his manhood, or 4 he was using it to curb his appitite, burn fat not muscle, and give him an immune boost and energy level boost.

What you've said is incomplete and basically wrong.

There are 3 "natural" ways that his hCG could be raised.

1a - Cancer
1b - Other tumors (in his chest for example)
1c - Problems with his pituitary gland, which has a history with

If I'm reading all of this right, his defense was based on his hCG being raised because of a known and pre-existing medical condition with his pituitary gland.

And I believe there could also be a 5th way: a side effect of a previously unknown PED compound.

But the more I hear of his story, the more it actually makes sense.

JB
05-15-2010, 07:50 PM
To me, it doesn't seem like a lot of stories.

Assuming that he didn't take hCG, and if you look at hCG and what it does and everything, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to just take hCG. If he had been taking steroids prior to or while taking the hCG, then he would have failed the testosterone tests. But he didn't fail those, he just failed the hCG test.

So, in September he almost failed one test and then failed another. Both had slightly elevated hCG levels. He gets notified by the NFL that he failed in October. He goes to see a doctor who tells him that he either injected hCG or he's got a tumor. So, in November and December, he's going to doctors to see if they can find a tumor. So, he's playing most of the season wondering if he's got a tumor.

During this time, one of the doctors looks at his medical history and says, "Hey. You've had a history with your pituitary gland maybe that could be causing this."

The doctors figure this could be it. They put together some documentation. The lawyer takes the documentation to the NFL and presents it in the appeal. They think they've won the appeal. Blah blah blah.

As a story goes, it's not nonsensical.

This actually makes a lot of sense PN. Could it be that this is a no fault incident?

gary
05-15-2010, 07:51 PM
Geez, I support those who plant money trees.

thunderkyss
05-15-2010, 07:51 PM
To me, it doesn't seem like a lot of stories.

Assuming that he didn't take hCG, and if you look at hCG and what it does and everything, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to just take hCG. If he had been taking steroids prior to or while taking the hCG, then he would have failed the testosterone tests. But he didn't fail those, he just failed the hCG test.

So, in September he almost failed one test and then failed another. Both had slightly elevated hCG levels. He gets notified by the NFL that he failed in October. He goes to see a doctor who tells him that he either injected hCG or he's got a tumor. So, in November and December, he's going to doctors to see if they can find a tumor. So, he's playing most of the season wondering if he's got a tumor.

During this time, one of the doctors looks at his medical history and says, "Hey. You've had a history with your pituitary gland maybe that could be causing this."

The doctors figure this could be it. They put together some documentation. The lawyer takes the documentation to the NFL and presents it in the appeal. They think they've won the appeal. Blah blah blah.

As a story goes, it's not nonsensical.

This is pretty much along the lines of what I'm thinking, with the addition, that his lawyer told him not to say crap about his defense for his appeal.

Why the lawyer came out and mentioned this the day after Brian's press conference, instead of allowing Cush to mention it, I don't know.

Another thing that is getting me about all the people who are positive that Cushing took hCG as part of an anabolic cycle, some use the level found as proof, when no numerical level was given. All we know is that it was slightly elevated, and at one time (a year ago?) that level would not have been a flag.

JB
05-15-2010, 07:52 PM
Geez, I support those who plant money trees.

Can you support em into planting some in my yard?

thunderkyss
05-15-2010, 07:55 PM
I'll add one more thing. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, beyond a shadow of a doubt. As long as there is a shadow, we should conclude this man is innocent.

I wonder how many guys that are bashing on Cushing are also vehemently opposed to the Arizona law that "could" be subject to racial profiling. To me this is the same thing. Just because some couch potato doesn't look like Brian Cushing, they assume there is only one way a person could possibly look like that. The man was guilty, before the first shred of "evidence" was presented.

And I think that is wrong.

Lucky
05-15-2010, 07:55 PM
Did we really need another Brian Cushing thread? Nine was not enough?

JB
05-15-2010, 07:56 PM
This is pretty much along the lines of what I'm thinking, with the addition, that his lawyer told him not to say crap about his defense for his appeal.

Why the lawyer came out and mentioned this the day after Brian's press conference, instead of allowing Cush to mention it, I don't know.
Another thing that is getting me about all the people who are positive that Cushing took hGC as part of an anabolic cycle, some use the level found as proof, when no numerical level was given. All we know is that it was slightly elevated, and at one time (a year ago?) that level would not have been a flag.

Because no one would have believed BC, and he probably would have lost all credibility and looked even more like he was grasping for straws. Looks much better for his lawyer to come in later with an explanation that did not make Brian look like he was reaching too much.

J_R
05-15-2010, 07:56 PM
First, I would like to say this could have gone in one of the other Cushing threads out there. I'm sure there are some out there somewhere. I promise, people will see it, maybe read it, and respond if they so please.

That's all. Thanks all for your time. :)

gary
05-15-2010, 07:56 PM
I'll have to wait untill all of these Cushing threads stop poping everywhere.

steelbtexan
05-15-2010, 08:05 PM
Dont care

Ready to move on

infantrycak
05-15-2010, 08:20 PM
Repeating this because it seemed like important background info to me.

CnD has been in contact with some people intimately involved in the develop and setting of the testing for the NFL and around the world in other sports. Some of the salient information:

The NFL uses urine testing. Blood testing is much more sensitive. Typically (where quantitative, see below) blood testing shows higher hcg levels than urine testing.

There are many false negatives in urine testing. The NFLPA insisted on urine testing.

The normal serum level (blood testing) for males and non-pregnant wome are 0-5 miu/cc.

The NFL urine test is a qualitative test - it only gives a yes or no like a dip stick pregnancy test. The designed break over point is 20 miu/cc or four times the upper end of normal. Historically this test has had very few false positives and lots of false negatives.

Isotope ratio mass spectrometry can distinguish natural hcg from exogenous synthetic hcg.

Any residual semen hcg from ejaculation would be minuscule diluted into a urine test.

As has been stated before, any health related issue such as testicular cancer which would cause a positive should continue to cause positive results or at least extremely elevated levels until the health issue is a resolve.

I'd like to thank CnD for digging this information out. Always nice to have more information.

It is interesting to note that the information given to CnD conflicts with what Cushing's attorney is describing in the use of a quantitative test v. a qualitative test.

JB
05-15-2010, 08:27 PM
Repeating this because it seemed like important background info to me.

CnD has been in contact with some people intimately involved in the develop and setting of the testing for the NFL and around the world in other sports. Some of the salient information:



I'd like to thank CnD for digging this information out. Always nice to have more information.

It is interesting to note that the information given to CnD conflicts with what Cushing's attorney is describing in the use of a quantitative test v. a qualitative test.



edit: nevermind... didn't read close enough the first time.

infantrycak
05-15-2010, 09:15 PM
Follow up conversation with CnD.

Assuming Cushing has an enlarged pituitary, that can be either exactly what it says a pituitary which is simply larger than usual or is also often enlarged because of the presence of an adenoma. An Adenoma is a glandular tumor. They come in two varieties, functioning (they produce hormones along with the pituitary) or non-functioning (produce nothing). Most are non-functioning. There has been a study that says either adenoma will on average cause an increase in hcg. The non-functioning produces a minor increase which doesn't sound likely to trigger a positive under the NFL standard. The quantification of the increase of a functioning adenoma is being investigated.

As to cancerous tumors, the cut-off level becomes important for perspective. The NFL test cut-off is 20. Cancerous tumors will produce increasing hcg levels if untreated until plateauing so they will pass through 20 at some point but will continue on to levels in the hundreds.

On any of these issues it should be remembered that hormones work in conjunction with one another. Hcg is often termed a marker hormone which has smaller moves and would typically be accompanied by larger moves in some other hormone(s) depending on the cause of the change. So typically there would be abnormal levels of some other hormone(s). But those other hormones very well might not be tested by the NFL at all. One would think his Doctors would be looking at them though.

Getting tons of good information from CnD and his sources but in the end it just leads to more questions. Should remind us all that even with all this information which hasn't been reported by the media, we simply don't know the facts.

Oh and on the qualitative v. "very slightly positive" appeared to be quantitative comments by Steinberg. It appears those are just like the home pregnancy test. Sometimes the plus sign comes in real strong and sometimes it barely comes through. So there is still no quantitative result, just a judgment call on the qualitative test.

JB
05-15-2010, 09:28 PM
Follow up conversation with CnD.

Assuming Cushing has an enlarged pituitary, that can be either exactly what it says a pituitary which is simply larger than usual or is also often enlarged because of the presence of an adenoma. An Adenoma is a glandular tumor. They come in two varieties, functioning (they produce hormones along with the pituitary) or non-functioning (produce nothing). Most are non-functioning. There has been a study that says either adenoma will on average cause an increase in hcg. The non-functioning produces a minor increase which doesn't sound likely to trigger a positive under the NFL standard. The quantification of the increase of a functioning adenoma is being investigated.

As to cancerous tumors, the cut-off level becomes important for perspective. The NFL test cut-off is 20. Cancerous tumors will produce increasing hcg levels if untreated until plateauing so they will pass through 20 at some point but will continue on to levels in the hundreds.

On any of these issues it should be remembered that hormones work in conjunction with one another. Hcg is often termed a marker hormone which has smaller moves and would typically be accompanied by larger moves in some other hormone(s) depending on the cause of the change. So typically there would be abnormal levels of some other hormone(s). But those other hormones very well might not be tested by the NFL at all. One would think his Doctors would be looking at them though.

Getting tons of good information from CnD and his sources but in the end it just leads to more questions. Should remind us all that even with all this information which hasn't been reported by the media, we simply don't know the facts.

Oh and on the qualitative v. "very slightly positive" appeared to be quantitative comments by Steinberg. It appears those are just like the home pregnancy test. Sometimes the plus sign comes in real strong and sometimes it barely comes through. So there is still no quantitative result, just a judgment call on the qualitative test.

So basically, we just don't know. He could be a liar and cheater, or he could be a young man that does things the right way, but has a medical condition that putsw him in a bad light.

infantrycak
05-15-2010, 10:53 PM
So basically, we just don't know. He could be a liar and cheater, or he could be a young man that does things the right way, but has a medical condition that putsw him in a bad light.

I would say we don't know. The best odds would be on steroid use but there are odd pieces to the story and other possibilities.. We are getting more information but still so much is missing.

For instance what is up with the warning? We have heard of that and Cushing said the test in September was only for hcg. Piece those two together and it sounds like there was a prior near miss negative which resulted in a discussion/warning and then a follow up specific test in September. If so, when was the prior test? Hcg as a steroid recovery drug (oh and CnD confirmed hcg is NOT a masking agent) is only taken for a limited time period and then would disappear after a couple weeks. So if that sequence is correct when was the prior test? - August, July, June. Elevated hcg over a 3-4 month time period would not be typical for recovery use as I understand it. So June would weigh against while August would be consistent. On the flip side, Cushing and Co. have had a lot of time to look into this. They should know by now if he has an adenoma pituitary tumor and whether it is active or not. This crap is complex and folks generally are playing monkey playing darts.

JB
05-15-2010, 10:57 PM
I would say we don't know. The best odds would be on steroid use but there are odd pieces to the story and other possibilities.. We are getting more information but still so much is missing.

For instance what is up with the warning? We have heard of that and Cushing said the test in September was only for hcg. Piece those two together and it sounds like there was a prior near miss negative which resulted in a discussion/warning and then a follow up specific test in September. If so, when was the prior test? Hcg as a steroid recovery drug (oh and CnD confirmed hcg is NOT a masking agent) is only taken for a limited time period and then would disappear after a couple weeks. So if that sequence is correct when was the prior test? - August, July, June. Elevated hcg over a 3-4 month time period would not be typical for recovery use as I understand it. So June would weigh against while August would be consistent. On the flip side, Cushing and Co. have had a lot of time to look into this. They should know by now if he has an adenoma pituitary tumor and whether it is active or not. This crap is complex and folks generally are playing monkey playing darts.

Yes, but at this point, the warnig is purely speculative. We have had no reinforecment of thet, other than that one statement by somebody?

infantrycak
05-15-2010, 11:04 PM
Yes, but at this point, the warnig is purely speculative. We have had no reinforecment of thet, other than that one statement by somebody?

Absolutely. Part of my point is folks are speculating on a lack of information about a lot of things. That one is out there. If we speculate on how it fits in with other things then what I was outlining fits together and leads to yet more inquiries.

JB
05-15-2010, 11:06 PM
Absolutely. Part of my point is folks are speculating on a lack of information about a lot of things. That one is out there. If we speculate on how it fits in with other things then what I was outlining fits together and leads to yet more inquiries.

Kinda like Watergate, people will never tire of the speculation as long as there continues to be discussion about it

thunderkyss
05-15-2010, 11:18 PM
On the flip side, Cushing and Co. have had a lot of time to look into this. They should know by now if he has an adenoma pituitary tumor and whether it is active or not. This crap is complex and folks generally are playing monkey playing darts.

I agree with that, and they very well may know and presented it to the NFL but was still denied their appeal. We don't need to know about anything like that, and Brian has every right to decide if that information is made public or not.

Even if it makes him look guilty, or that information could clear his name with the fans. If the NFL already said no, I wouldn't want every one knowing about something like that, public opinion be damned. It's none of our business.

He may have talked that over with McNair by now, we don't know, and we wouldn't know.

edo783
05-15-2010, 11:21 PM
Kinda like Watergate, people will never tire of the speculation as long as there continues to be discussion about it

And just to help things along, it's the off season and folks are looking for things to talk/speculate about. If this was midseason there wouldn't be anywhere near the national coverage and probably even a lot less on our boards.

Mr teX
05-16-2010, 08:11 AM
bottom line is the young man has alot to protect & maybe he's been quiet about it b/c he didn't want to give the texans organization any reason whatsoever to short him on any money he had coming his way in negotiating his contract or future ones.

Furthermore as i've stated before, he's got the right to privacy as far as the little medical history he does still have to himself. If he truly did have some kind of pitutary gland operation/issue while at USC that could very well be a culprit in this whole fiasco & he chose not to speak about it at the press conference, then i think that speaks volumes about how he feels about his medical privacy.

Porky
05-16-2010, 08:49 AM
From PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/16/the-last-word-possibly-on-the-cushing-case/#comments)

In one of the all-time classic Seinfeld monologues, Kramer explains that, while driving a bus that had been hijacked, he kept making the stops because the passengers kept ringing the bell.

We're reminded of that one because when people want to know why keep writing about the Brian Cushing situation, a case that potentially has triggered a sea change regarding the public's attitude toward PEDs in pro football, the answer is simple -- Cushing's people keep talking about it.

One league source with knowledge of Cushing's situation hopes that the talking will now end.

"For the sake of his fellow players, Brian needs to direct his agent and lawyer to zip it," the source said. "He had a fair hearing. The NFLPA and the NFL know the full story. This little exercise is doing nothing other than casting a bad light over the claims of players either with legitimate appeals or legitimate disputes with the appeal process."

The source also points out that, while lawyer Harvey Steinberg generally introduced evidence as to the possibility that hCG may be naturally produced due to conditions other than the presence in the body of a tumor or a placenta, Steinberg failed to introduce evidence demonstrating that Cushing had any of the conditions that could naturally produce hCG.

Then there's the fact that the lingering Cushing apologists, most of whom reside in the 713, 832, or 281 area codes, fail to acknowledge the logical flaw inherent in the notion that Cushing had a condition that apparently caused him to "naturally produce" hCG for only a short period of time. The fact that Steinberg and Cushing have created the sense that this is a chronic problem for Cushing without directly stating that his urine continues to reveal the kind of hCG levels that would result in a violation of the NFL's steroids policy strongly suggests that this is an exercise in spin.

But if Cushing and/or Steinberg would like to have one more chance to set the record straight, we call on them to answer these questions:

1. What specific medical condition did (or does) Cushing have that is causing him to produce hCG naturally?

2. What are the specific dates on which Cushing has been tested, by the NFL or otherwise, for hCG?

3. What was the concentration of hCG measured in each sample?

We've yet to see the answers to these questions. And if the answers to these questions in any way help Cushing's position, we would have seen them at some point in the nine days since word of his suspension emerged.

Porky
05-16-2010, 09:04 AM
The article I posted makes a lot of salient points. If Cushing has a tumor, let's see the evidence. Someone said, well maybe it's tiny and they can't detect it yet. But that would mean it's not large enough to produce the HCG noted. So, that is null and void, and already makes Cushing a known liar because he must know that too.

Second, if it's the pitutary gland, again that would be medically known and that evidence presented. As the article notes, the Dr presented evidence that elevated hcg can have other causes, but he presented ZERO evidence that Cushing has any of those conditions.

Come on folks. This really doesn't take a rocket scientist. Look, support the cheater if you want, but let's at least call a spade a spade. And someone in some thread here actually said (without a lol smiley no less) that Cushing doesn't look like he does steriods. LMAO. The guy is practically the poster child for a roided out body.

He has been accused of using steriods since HS. At what point does smoke become fire? Supposedly, his dad used to inject him and others saw it. There are multiple reports of that. Just because the guy has done a decent job up until now of masking it doesn't mean it isn't so. Even a fellow NFL GM admits that ya, they did their research and concluded the guy was a roid freak....and that was well before the positive test.

I honestly think some of you people are going to hold on to whatever he says until Cushing comes on live TV with a giant needle that says Roids on it, pulls down his pants and injects himself in the butt with it. And then you'll probably say it was someone else's ass and just a TV trick. Let's cut out the BS and call a duck a duck. Some of you are presented with a duck, but try to tell me it's a cow. Good luck with that one.

infantrycak
05-16-2010, 09:43 AM
From PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/16/the-last-word-possibly-on-the-cushing-case/#comments)

Florio may be 100% correct in his conclusion Cushing did steroids but he is on an uninformed hatchet job in his writing. For instance demanding the concentrations on tests when the NFL uses a qualitative test rather than a quantitative test so he is demanding something neither Cushing nor the NFL could provide.

HuttoKarl
05-17-2010, 10:11 AM
pft.com is the weekly world news of sports.

Revolution
05-17-2010, 10:20 AM
Florio may be 100% correct in his conclusion Cushing did steroids but he is on an uninformed hatchet job in his writing. For instance demanding the concentrations on tests when the NFL uses a qualitative test rather than a quantitative test so he is demanding something neither Cushing nor the NFL could provide.

Exactly the reason all these posts are just laughable. :devilpig:

Carr Bombed
05-17-2010, 03:53 PM
Cushing is straight lying through his teeth and it's embarrassing at this point.

Double Barrel
05-17-2010, 05:30 PM
To me, it doesn't seem like a lot of stories.

Assuming that he didn't take hCG, and if you look at hCG and what it does and everything, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to just take hCG. If he had been taking steroids prior to or while taking the hCG, then he would have failed the testosterone tests. But he didn't fail those, he just failed the hCG test.

So, in September he almost failed one test and then failed another. Both had slightly elevated hCG levels. He gets notified by the NFL that he failed in October. He goes to see a doctor who tells him that he either injected hCG or he's got a tumor. So, in November and December, he's going to doctors to see if they can find a tumor. So, he's playing most of the season wondering if he's got a tumor.

During this time, one of the doctors looks at his medical history and says, "Hey. You've had a history with your pituitary gland maybe that could be causing this."

The doctors figure this could be it. They put together some documentation. The lawyer takes the documentation to the NFL and presents it in the appeal. They think they've won the appeal. Blah blah blah.

As a story goes, it's not nonsensical.

Good post, man. This is the most plausible explanation based upon the assumption that he did not take hCG.

I find the idea of two NFL "experts" disagreeing with each other but the NFL making the judgment call in spite of the testimony of one of these "experts" to be a bit troubling.