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otisbean
05-13-2010, 06:30 PM
I posted this on another site but wanted it to be posted here as well:

I spoke with a Dr. friend of mine in CA, he is familiar with the Cushing situation as he is a Texan fan. First, HCG will stimulate Leuteinizing Hormone in the body. It will not help produce extra testosterone, ie it will not boost a person's testosterone levels past the normal range as steroids will. It can help raise a persons level with in the normal range, meaning that if the normal range is 200 on the low side and 900 in the high side it could help you go from 200 towards 900, but it won't help you get out of the range of normal as roids will. He said alot of roid users don't even take HCG anymore, as Clomed is what most users will use to boost their natural testosterone production after doing a cycle.

I asked him, could he have gotten it from a "natural" testosterone supplement like the 100s that are available at GNCs ect... he said absolutely. He suspected this was the likely culprit as the levels were so low. He believes that it is very difficult to successfully take steroids in the NFL as they have an ULTRA strict policy. He said most of the time when guys get busted for diuretics their actually taking them to make weight, not to mask roids.

Is the case strong that Cushing took roids, I don't think so. If you don't think supplements can be tainted check this out:

http://www.physorg.com/news176664344.html

He was tested all year, he had one negative test with a very slightly elevated level of a drug that shouldn't even be considered in the same category as the real deal, in all honesty.

This brings me to a final point, is it cheating if a guy takes a supplement to boost his testosterone to a higher level so long that the level is within the normal range? Different people have different levels occurring in their body's naturally, some are in the low range 200-300 and some are naturally up near 900. What's wrong with a guy bumping his level up from 300 to 800 with a supplement?

BTW, here is more info on tainted supplements:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/sports/11dopingweb.html

This one is about an OTC supplement that caused a positive steroid test

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/tainted-supplements

This one is from Dr. John Berardi's website regarding the surprising number of tainted supplements.

CloakNNNdagger
05-13-2010, 09:43 PM
Your Dr. friend is correct about the 1st paragraph statments, as I have posted similarly in the past with the qualification the testosterone levels being able to be bumped to somewhat above the high levels of normal in some cases.........but not very useful by itself in performance enhancement.

No one will argue that many supplements can be "adulterated" with "unknown additional substances."

BUT, as many fans do not realize, that is why the NFL/NFLPA has agreed to follow the NSF CERTIFICATION PROCESS (http://nsf.org/business/nfl_nflpa/).

At the request of the National Football League (NFL) and the National Football League Players Association (NFLPA), NSF has developed stringent criteria for product certification under the NFL/NFLPA Supplement Certification Program. In addition to requiring NSF Certification to dietary supplements or functional foods criteria, the program requires each product lot to undergo analytical testing to ensure the absence of any substances banned by the NFL/NFLPA.

In addition to the strict NSF Dietary Supplements and Functional Foods Program requirements, products certified under the Official NFL/NFLPA Supplement Certification Program must meet the following stringent criteria:

Formula Evaluation - NSF provides confidential review of product formulations to screen for potential banned substances and determine testing requirements.

Good Manufacturing Practices - Production facilities and packaging facilities are inspected to insure controls are in place to avoid the introduction of, or cross contamination with, banned substances.

Clinical Testing for Metabolites - At the client's request, NSF will oversee clinical testing to determine if any ingredients metabolize into prohibited substances that may result in disqualification from competition.

Chain-of-Custody Procedures - Each product lot tested for banned substances must be collected by an NSF auditor. All products pending testing are held under locked quarantine until NSF notifies the manufacturer of successful test results.


The Official NFL/NFLPA Supplement Certification Program:

Offers NFL players product options so they will not unknowingly consume banned substances via their sports nutritional products.

Reduces the likelihood of NFL Players testing positive for banned substances consumed unintentionally.

Ensures certified dietary supplements and functional foods contain the identity and quantity of ingredients listed on the product label and are free of any undeclared contaminants or prohibited ingredients.

Provides a mechanism for third-party evaluation for the metabolites of dietary supplements formulations.

In essence, ALL NFL teams have open access to laboratories ( and make them available to players and coaches) that will independently evaluate any given supplement for content and purity by sophisticated accurate methods such as liquid chromatography.

The problem is, if the player is not overtly gaming the system, that some players choose to claim ignorance of what they want to view as "benign" over-the-counter supplements. What further compounds the problem with over-the-counter supplements is that, to begin with, they many times have LABELED multiple ingredients.

In summary, if players stick to the rules and processes available to them, it is virtually impossible for them to travel down the wrong road of positive testing.

otisbean
05-14-2010, 07:18 AM
Your Dr. friend is correct about the 1st paragraph statments, as I have posted similarly in the past with the qualification the testosterone levels being able to be bumped to somewhat above the high levels of normal in some cases.........but not very useful by itself in performance enhancement.

No one will argue that many supplements can be "adulterated" with "unknown additional substances."

BUT, as many fans do not realize, that is why the NFL/NFLPA has agreed to follow the NSF CERTIFICATION PROCESS (http://nsf.org/business/nfl_nflpa/).

In essence, ALL NFL teams have open access to laboratories ( and make them available to players and coaches) that will independently evaluate any given supplement for content and purity by sophisticated accurate methods such as liquid chromatography.

The problem is, if the player is not overtly gaming the system, that some players choose to claim ignorance of what they want to view as "benign" over-the-counter supplements. What further compounds the problem with over-the-counter supplements is that, to begin with, they many times have LABELED multiple ingredients.

In summary, if players stick to the rules and processes available to them, it is virtually impossible for them to travel down the wrong road of positive testing.

I know about the NSF, in fact it's discussed in one of the articles I posted. The article also has a list of NSF certified supplements. There isn't alot of variety on the list, it seems to be mostly meal replacements and protein powders. I'm guessing that athletes are choosing to use different supplements and perhaps it's causing problems.

Im not defending that choice, Im not saying it's right or wrong, but I can understand it. WHen there are millions of dollars on the line, and physical performance plays a major role in obtaining said money, I can understand why guys might be looking for any edge possible. If an OTC supplement can boost performance and be legally to obtained, I can completely understand why someone would use it. Heck the only supplement I use thats on that list is muscle milk. There are supplements I take now that I would continue to use if I were to play in the NFL because for me they work. Their not on NSF list though.

My main problem with the Cushing issue is that many fans and media goons were so quick to assume he used steroids. My purpose was to get people to understand there are other, legitimate ways that this could have happened. I'm not saying that this IS what happened, just that its possible.

According to my physician friend he feels that a tainted supplement could easily be the cause. He tested positive only one time with a very low level. He said it's possible that he was taking HCG to try to boost his own testosterone output, but he doubted that based on the really low levels and the fact that he only tested positive once.

CloakNNNdagger
05-14-2010, 07:52 AM
I know about the NSF, in fact it's discussed in one of the articles I posted. The article also has a list of NSF certified supplements. There isn't alot of variety on the list, it seems to be mostly meal replacements and protein powders. I'm guessing that athletes are choosing to use different supplements and perhaps it's causing problems.

Im not defending that choice, Im not saying it's right or wrong, but I can understand it. WHen there are millions of dollars on the line, and physical performance plays a major role in obtaining said money, I can understand why guys might be looking for any edge possible. If an OTC supplement can boost performance and be legally to obtained, I can completely understand why someone would use it. Heck the only supplement I use thats on that list is muscle milk. There are supplements I take now that I would continue to use if I were to play in the NFL because for me they work. Their not on NSF list though.

My main problem with the Cushing issue is that many fans and media goons were so quick to assume he used steroids. My purpose was to get people to understand there are other, legitimate ways that this could have happened. I'm not saying that this IS what happened, just that its possible.

According to my physician friend he feels that a tainted supplement could easily be the cause. He tested positive only one time with a very low level. He said it's possible that he was taking HCG to try to boost his own testosterone output, but he doubted that based on the really low levels and the fact that he only tested positive once.

It appears that your physician friend and you do not understand that any coach or player may submit to their team ANY supplement not on the NSF certified list to independent testing for content and purity BEFORE they begin taking it.

Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.

HJam72
05-14-2010, 10:39 AM
Maybe he didn't want to admit that he was pregnant. :thinking:

infantrycak
05-14-2010, 10:59 AM
Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.

Did I miss it somewhere and you found out the NFL number is in fact 2 x some norm? - and if so, what is the norm?

BullNation4Life
05-14-2010, 11:40 AM
Maybe he didn't want to admit that he was pregnant. :thinking:

http://www.collegeessayorganizer.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/junior.jpg

IT'S NOT A TUUUMA, IT'S A BOY!

Double Barrel
05-14-2010, 12:24 PM
It appears that your physician friend and you do not understand that any coach or player may submit to their team ANY supplement not on the NSF certified list to independent testing for content and purity BEFORE they begin taking it.

Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.

I was curious about the "low" comments, as well.

And what was strange to me is that an elite athlete, with millions of dollars and a pro career on the line, one who is known to be in tune with every aspect of his health and fitness, appeared to be so clueless about this substance and the different aspects of it. This doesn't even begin to touch on the tumor remarks.

If I - just a football fan and regular dude - have learned so much about the substance just from reading your informed posts the past few days, I find it really weird that Cush has had this situation for over 8 months and still seems so uneducated about it. And he does not come across as a so-called "dumb jock" and appears to be intelligent, so his press conference seemed at odds with who he is known to be.

I have no desire to witch hunt the guy. I'm just trying to be more educated on the matter so when I talk to other people, especially those with biased assumptions, I can reply with facts and knowledge instead of emotion-based speculation.

Joe Texan
05-14-2010, 02:50 PM
I feel real good about what the first Dr said. He got hold of something bad, took it found out is was bad quit taking it got busted and is serving his punishment

CASE CLOSED

gtexan02
05-14-2010, 02:52 PM
I feel real good about what the first Dr said. He got hold of something bad, took it found out is was bad quit taking it got busted and is serving his punishment

CASE CLOSED

Who said that?

Also, if this is true, then Cushing is an outright liar. he said he had no idea how it got in his body, and is concerned for his health. Are yuo saying Cushing is a liar?

devo-x
05-14-2010, 10:48 PM
I think it was an unintended side effect of one of the many supplements he takes after reading about the Texans official who supposedly 'warned' Cushing and our former Strength and Conditioning Coach about a supplement that could result (and did) result in one positive test

It's the most logical conclusion at this point

otisbean
05-15-2010, 08:01 AM
It appears that your physician friend and you do not understand that any coach or player may submit to their team ANY supplement not on the NSF certified list to independent testing for content and purity BEFORE they begin taking it.

Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.

Just so I'm clear with what you are saying, if 47 of the Texan players show up with 2 supplements each, the Texans will run 94 different lab tests on said supplements? If so that's pretty impressive

To be perfectly clear as to what my friend said, he said he would be surprised in he was taking HCG as he didn't feel it would do anything for him that he couldn't get from an OTC testosterone supplement, IE why take some thing on the banned substance list when they are other supplements on the market that do a really good job with helping boost test level. Thats why he thought it might be a tainted supplement. MY point in listing the articles was to show that this absolutely happens (tainted supplements), and to present an alternative theory of the crime so to speak. As I said in the original post, this was posted on another thread in response to all the he has to be doing steroids posts. My friend also said that the NFL steroid testing is no joke, and he felt that the number of steroid users in the NFL was actually pretty low.

My posting of his HCG levels was simply what was being reported in the media at that time of the original post. I find it interesting and a bit peculiar that in his appeal hearing the NFL had 2 toxicology experts and 1 said there was no way HCG could occur naturally while the 2nd said that it was possible and he was suspended. I would think they would want a consensus from their experts.

CloakNNNdagger
05-15-2010, 12:34 PM
Just so I'm clear with what you are saying, if 47 of the Texan players show up with 2 supplements each, the Texans will run 94 different lab tests on said supplements? If so that's pretty impressive


This is not how the process plays out. For example, just like I as a physician who chooses to maintain a membership with the entity Consumer Lab, I am able to request the independent content and purity data on specific supplements. Their database accumulated over the years is substantial. It does not obviously, however, include every manufacturer or every supplement known to man. If they do not have data on a certain supplement, then I may submit a sample of the supplement for independent testing at my expense (which is not nominal).

With the NFL, teams have this similar type of investigatory options. A team is not going to test every off brand or unknown substance brought in by their player when there are known substitutes with confirmed status. There needs to be some sanity to the process. There will be times that the player will be told “No.” And in those cases they will be aware and also usually reminded that there is no guarantee they will not test “positive” for some banned substance if they choose to proceed on their own with its use. Then, they’re on their own if they choose to “gamble.” If they just can’t live without their substance, and data is not available and testing by the team is felt to not to be reasonable, the player can always have his supplement tested at his expense by the certified lab.

Bottom line, this is why it is made very clear within THE NFL POLICIES to the player (by signed agreement) that the player, and the player alone is ultimately responsible for what goes into his body.

The Pencil Neck
05-15-2010, 07:53 PM
Just so I'm clear with what you are saying, if 47 of the Texan players show up with 2 supplements each, the Texans will run 94 different lab tests on said supplements? If so that's pretty impressive

To be perfectly clear as to what my friend said, he said he would be surprised in he was taking HCG as he didn't feel it would do anything for him that he couldn't get from an OTC testosterone supplement, IE why take some thing on the banned substance list when they are other supplements on the market that do a really good job with helping boost test level. Thats why he thought it might be a tainted supplement. MY point in listing the articles was to show that this absolutely happens (tainted supplements), and to present an alternative theory of the crime so to speak. As I said in the original post, this was posted on another thread in response to all the he has to be doing steroids posts. My friend also said that the NFL steroid testing is no joke, and he felt that the number of steroid users in the NFL was actually pretty low.


THe OTC testosterone supplements are on the banned list.


My posting of his HCG levels was simply what was being reported in the media at that time of the original post. I find it interesting and a bit peculiar that in his appeal hearing the NFL had 2 toxicology experts and 1 said there was no way HCG could occur naturally while the 2nd said that it was possible and he was suspended. I would think they would want a consensus from their experts.

From what I've heard, the NFL had 2 experts and Cush had 1. Obviously Cush's expert presented evidence for how Cush had tested positive without having taken anything. On the NFL's side, one expert disagreed with Cush's expert while the other agreed. And upon hearing that, Cush and his lawyer thought they were going to be exonerated.

otisbean
05-15-2010, 08:08 PM
THe OTC testosterone supplements are on the banned list.



From what I've heard, the NFL had 2 experts and Cush had 1. Obviously Cush's expert presented evidence for how Cush had tested positive without having taken anything. On the NFL's side, one expert disagreed with Cush's expert while the other agreed. And upon hearing that, Cush and his lawyer thought they were going to be exonerated.

To be clear my friend was saying he wouldn't take HCG as there are better OTC supplements, he was saying he would take them, just that there were better ones available. This brings an interesting question, I wonder why it's illegal to boost your test levels with legal substances when the normal range is fairly wide. I can see it being illegal to have test levels above normal, but what's wrong with going from the 200s to 800s. I find it peculiar.

I thought McClains article said the NfL had 2 of their own experts and they disagreed, but I may have misread the article.

BTW, i have an OTC test supplement (I don't really take it though, I buy crap and never use most of it) and none of the ingredients are on the 07 banned substance list (which was the only one I could find). The list had specific compounds, it didn't specifically say OTC test supplements. It did have the ambiguous "related compounds" though. I don't know if that means related to the specific compounds or what.

Here's the list: http://www.scribd.com/doc/14066744/NFL-Banned-Substances

JB
05-15-2010, 08:19 PM
To be clear my friend was saying he wouldn't take HCG as there are better OTC supplements, he was saying he would take them, just that there were better ones available. This brings an interesting question, I wonder why it's illegal to boost your test levels with legal substances when the normal range is fairly wide. I can see it being illegal to have test levels above normal, but what's wrong with going from the 200s to 800s. I find it peculiar.

I thoght McClains article said the NfL had 2 experts and they disagreed, but I may have misread the article.

Same thing PN is saying

otisbean
05-15-2010, 08:43 PM
This is not how the process plays out. For example, just like I as a physician who chooses to maintain a membership with the entity Consumer Lab, I am able to request the independent content and purity data on specific supplements. Their database accumulated over the years is substantial. It does not obviously, however, include every manufacturer or every supplement known to man. If they do not have data on a certain supplement, then I may submit a sample of the supplement for independent testing at my expense (which is not nominal).

With the NFL, teams have this similar type of investigatory options. A team is not going to test every off brand or unknown substance brought in by their player when there are known substitutes with confirmed status. There needs to be some sanity to the process. There will be times that the player will be told “No.” And in those cases they will be aware and also usually reminded that there is no guarantee they will not test “positive” for some banned substance if they choose to proceed on their own with its use. Then, they’re on their own if they choose to “gamble.” If they just can’t live without their substance, and data is not available and testing by the team is felt to not to be reasonable, the player can always have his supplement tested at his expense by the certified lab.

Bottom line, this is why it is made very clear within THE NFL POLICIES to the player (by signed agreement) that the player, and the player alone is ultimately responsible for what goes into his body.

Now, the following is purely for discussion purposes:

Do you remember when a group of people had heart attacks that were attributed to Ephedra? 20-20 did a supplement expose on different supplements that contained ephedra. One brand, which was very reputable at the time, had 2 separate bottles of the same product tested. One bottle had 1/2 the amount listed on the label while bottle 2 had twice the listed amount in the bottle. I bring this up because I'm not sure that creating a list of OK supplements would be all that effective given this example. If a lab such as consumer lab tested supplement X from company Y once and the supplement tested OK, how do we know that another bottle wouldn't contain a bad ingredient or improper levels. I don't have the answer to this, I guess the thing to do is to not take anything. As a strength coach, I would think professional athletes would benefit more from supplements, given their workload, than the average Joe that eats fast food 3 times a day

It seems to me that the NFL would be better off looking for abnormally high levels of hormones ect... vs looking for specific compounds. For example, I can go buy DHEA at my pharmacy or supplement store but its on the banned substance list. Previously I mentioned that people have varying levels of test present in their system. If I remember correctly the range is pretty broad, if your a physician then you may have the exact numbers of more info, I see nothing wrong with elevating your levels to the high side of the normal range. I see that as leveling the playing field vs cheating. To me, cheating is more like going to from normal to twice the normal amount, or something to that effect.

Thanks for your input.

Rey
05-15-2010, 09:40 PM
If Cushing was going to cheat, why not just take HGH?

CloakNNNdagger
05-15-2010, 10:33 PM
Now, the following is purely for discussion purposes:

Do you remember when a group of people had heart attacks that were attributed to Ephedra? 20-20 did a supplement expose on different supplements that contained ephedra. One brand, which was very reputable at the time, had 2 separate bottles of the same product tested. One bottle had 1/2 the amount listed on the label while bottle 2 had twice the listed amount in the bottle. I bring this up because I'm not sure that creating a list of OK supplements would be all that effective given this example. If a lab such as consumer lab tested supplement X from company Y once and the supplement tested OK, how do we know that another bottle wouldn't contain a bad ingredient or improper levels. I don't have the answer to this, I guess the thing to do is to not take anything. As a strength coach, I would think professional athletes would benefit more from supplements, given their workload, than the average Joe that eats fast food 3 times a day

It seems to me that the NFL would be better off looking for abnormally high levels of hormones ect... vs looking for specific compounds. For example, I can go buy DHEA at my pharmacy or supplement store but its on the banned substance list. Previously I mentioned that people have varying levels of test present in their system. If I remember correctly the range is pretty broad, if your a physician then you may have the exact numbers of more info, I see nothing wrong with elevating your levels to the high side of the normal range. I see that as leveling the playing field vs cheating. To me, cheating is more like going to from normal to twice the normal amount, or something to that effect.
Thanks for your input.

Otisbean,

That's exactly what Consumer Lab does in its testing............it will test for consistency of amount per unit per bottle and amount per unit in multiple samples of bottles from different lot numbers (batches) before putting on their stamp of approval.

On the second point, on the surface it would seem correct. But the physician can only petition the use of a banned substance if it is to CORRECT AN ABNORMALITY. Low normal or mid normal is not considered an abnormality.

Texan_Bill
05-15-2010, 10:51 PM
Otisbean,

That's exactly what Consumer Lab does in its testing............it will test for consistency of amount per unit per bottle and amount per unit in multiple samples of bottles from different lot numbers (batches) before putting on their stamp of approval.

On the second point, on the surface it would seem correct. But the physician can only petition the use of a banned substance if it is to CORRECT AN ABNORMALITY. Low normal or mid normal is not considered an abnormality.

Doc Jean, empty your PM inbox... :cool:

The Pencil Neck
05-16-2010, 02:22 AM
To be clear my friend was saying he wouldn't take HCG as there are better OTC supplements, he was saying he would take them, just that there were better ones available. This brings an interesting question, I wonder why it's illegal to boost your test levels with legal substances when the normal range is fairly wide. I can see it being illegal to have test levels above normal, but what's wrong with going from the 200s to 800s. I find it peculiar.


Actually, I don't think they actually test the testosterone level to see if it's high or low. From what I've heard, for testosterone, they test the testosterone to epitestosterone ratio. If that ratio is out of whack, then you fail the test... even if your overall testosterone is within "normal" ranges.

I think it was Landis who failed a test for that (or a similar) reason even though his overall levels were actually below normal.



I thought McClains article said the NfL had 2 of their own experts and they disagreed, but I may have misread the article.


Yeah. That's what I said. Except there was a 3rd expert as well. So there were 2 experts saying it could happen and one saying it couldn't.


BTW, i have an OTC test supplement (I don't really take it though, I buy crap and never use most of it) and none of the ingredients are on the 07 banned substance list (which was the only one I could find). The list had specific compounds, it didn't specifically say OTC test supplements. It did have the ambiguous "related compounds" though. I don't know if that means related to the specific compounds or what.

Here's the list: http://www.scribd.com/doc/14066744/NFL-Banned-Substances

Yeah, I've looked over the list a few times.

What OTC test supplement do you have? What's in it?

Most OTC test supplements are really just BS. Even the Andros (Androstenedione and Androstenediol) which are precursors to steroids (and on the banned list, btw) don't really do much to boost your testosterone unless you take an astronomical dosage and even then won't boost it over natural levels but WILL screw with your test/epi-test ratio for months.

A lot of supplement makers package things and make claims about what they do that are really stretching things.

otisbean
05-16-2010, 07:31 AM
Actually, I don't think they actually test the testosterone level to see if it's high or low. From what I've heard, for testosterone, they test the testosterone to epitestosterone ratio. If that ratio is out of whack, then you fail the test... even if your overall testosterone is within "normal" ranges.

I think it was Landis who failed a test for that (or a similar) reason even though his overall levels were actually below normal.




Yeah. That's what I said. Except there was a 3rd expert as well. So there were 2 experts saying it could happen and one saying it couldn't.



Yeah, I've looked over the list a few times.

What OTC test supplement do you have? What's in it?

Most OTC test supplements are really just BS. Even the Andros (Androstenedione and Androstenediol) which are precursors to steroids (and on the banned list, btw) don't really do much to boost your testosterone unless you take an astronomical dosage and even then won't boost it over natural levels but WILL screw with your test/epi-test ratio for months.

A lot of supplement makers package things and make claims about what they do that are really stretching things.

The supplement is Alpha male from Bio-test. If I take any supplements there are from Bio-test. I really like their GPC, their protein powder, Surge workout and recovery drinks, fish oil capsules ect.. Alpha male is supposed to be great but I haven't tried it yet, Dan John speaks highly of it. Anaconda is supposed to be great as well. I ordered some but haven't started it yet. I still train hard and I'm getting towards my late 30s(37) so anything legal that will help is great. I have goals of a legit below parallel squat of over 500lbs (belt only and I'm at 475 now) and I want to jump what I did in college (37"), so I still train heavy and hard.

My Dr friend did say that some of the OTC test supplements were really good, but I didn't ask which ones he was talking about.

eric138
05-16-2010, 08:58 AM
Your Dr friend is wrong about the increased HCG levels from any OTC supp on the market. The ONLY way to supplement your HCG level is to inject HCG either IM or SubQ. Oral HCG is junk and a way to get fat people to think they are getting an edge on losing weight. So unless there is an injectable supplement that you have to reconstitute with Bac Water prior to using via needle then no, it isn't possible. And all of the OTC supps I know of that are injectable are already liquid, ready to inject form.

and otisbean, I think you would be better off talking to a Dr and having your hormone levels tested. if you think these Test booster are actually helping you, your body would be a lot healthier stopping those and getting on hormone replacement therapy.

infantrycak
05-16-2010, 09:39 AM
Actually, I don't think they actually test the testosterone level to see if it's high or low. From what I've heard, for testosterone, they test the testosterone to epitestosterone ratio. If that ratio is out of whack, then you fail the test... even if your overall testosterone is within "normal" ranges.

I think it was Landis who failed a test for that (or a similar) reason even though his overall levels were actually below normal.

Correct mostly. The cycling ratio is 4 to 1. In football it is 6 to 1. Turns out there are some accompanying tests they examine as well that CnD and I are trying to look into.

Your Dr friend is wrong about the increased HCG levels from any OTC supp on the market. The ONLY way to supplement your HCG level is to inject HCG either IM or SubQ. Oral HCG is junk and a way to get fat people to think they are getting an edge on losing weight.

Oral hcg being ineffective as a weight loss tool isn't the same thing as saying it won't elevate your levels. It isn't entirely known if it can be absorbed orally but it is unlikely. It can also be delivered through nasal spray or dermal patch but those are prescription.

otisbean
05-16-2010, 10:04 AM
Your Dr friend is wrong about the increased HCG levels from any OTC supp on the market. The ONLY way to supplement your HCG level is to inject HCG either IM or SubQ. Oral HCG is junk and a way to get fat people to think they are getting an edge on losing weight. So unless there is an injectable supplement that you have to reconstitute with Bac Water prior to using via needle then no, it isn't possible. And all of the OTC supps I know of that are injectable are already liquid, ready to inject form.

and otisbean, I think you would be better off talking to a Dr and having your hormone levels tested. if you think these Test booster are actually helping you, your body would be a lot healthier stopping those and getting on hormone replacement therapy.

A couple thoughts:

I purchased a product because a coach I respect spoke highly of it. As i said, I haven't tried it yet.

The Dr. that spoke with is VERY knowledgeable about steroids and performance enhancing drugs. I have known this guy for years and I trust what he says completely.

For the record, and I believe I have said this multiple times, I brought up the concept of tainted supplements as a possibility for his failed test because tainted supplements have caused positive drug tests in the past - this is a fact, read the links I posted to see the stories. I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED TO CUSHING, ONLY THAT THIS STUFF DOES HAPPEN. When his positive test first came out, there were a lot of fans trashing Cushing and calling him a cheater. I posted this to show that there were other possibilities. In light of new evidence, I'm not sure what happened with Cush, and honestly I don't care. i just hate to see people jump to conclusions when all the facts are unknown. The original post was created pretty close to when the news first came out, and facts were scarce at that time.

People are very quick to label athletes as cheaters and steroid users, and I think this is absurd. Are there cheaters, of course. BUT, I think athletes should be given the benefit of the doubt. We live in a society of innocent until proven guilty. Until he tests positive for steroids specifically I think people shouldn't label him as a steroid user.

I have had friends ask me if I have used steroids because over a 2 year period I gained a considerable amount of size and strength and I have never taken anything even remotely close to steroids. I just train my ass off. Cushing trains his ass off as well, maybe he has some help, maybe he doesn't. I just think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

eric138
05-16-2010, 10:43 AM
Oral hcg being ineffective as a weight loss tool isn't the same thing as saying it won't elevate your levels.

I said oral HCG is junk and the only reason it is sold is to get fat people to think it helps them lose weight.. oral HCg doesn't do anything other than that.

eric138
05-16-2010, 10:48 AM
A couple thoughts:

I purchased a product because a coach I respect spoke highly of it. As i said, I haven't tried it yet.

The Dr. that spoke with is VERY knowledgeable about steroids and performance enhancing drugs. I have known this guy for years and I trust what he says completely.

For the record, and I believe I have said this multiple times, I brought up the concept of tainted supplements as a possibility for his failed test because tainted supplements have caused positive drug tests in the past - this is a fact, read the links I posted to see the stories. I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED TO CUSHING, ONLY THAT THIS STUFF DOES HAPPEN. When his positive test first came out, there were a lot of fans trashing Cushing and calling him a cheater. I posted this to show that there were other possibilities. In light of new evidence, I'm not sure what happened with Cush, and honestly I don't care. i just hate to see people jump to conclusions when all the facts are unknown. The original post was created pretty close to when the news first came out, and facts were scarce at that time.

People are very quick to label athletes as cheaters and steroid users, and I think this is absurd. Are there cheaters, of course. BUT, I think athletes should be given the benefit of the doubt. We live in a society of innocent until proven guilty. Until he tests positive for steroids specifically I think people shouldn't label him as a steroid user.

I have had friends ask me if I have used steroids because over a 2 year period I gained a considerable amount of size and strength and I have never taken anything even remotely close to steroids. I just train my ass off. Cushing trains his ass off as well, maybe he has some help, maybe he doesn't. I just think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.


I agree with you 100%. I honestly feel he wasn't using steroids when this whole HCG testing occurred. There are very few steroids that would clear out so fast that it wouldn't be detected during increased HCG levels.. its not like post cycle therapy uses HCG for a long amount of time after a steroid cycle is over. HCG is used during cycle and then maybe right before PCT starts.. and if it was detected because of this and they didn't see steroids they surely would have seen nolvadex or clomid.. He would have to be an ***** to not include one of those in PCT.

I believe the only supps out there that would cause a positive failure on a PEG test are ones that have steroids in them.. basically all the "prohormones" that are or were on the market.

The Pencil Neck
05-16-2010, 12:45 PM
The supplement is Alpha male from Bio-test. If I take any supplements there are from Bio-test. I really like their GPC, their protein powder, Surge workout and recovery drinks, fish oil capsules ect.. Alpha male is supposed to be great but I haven't tried it yet, Dan John speaks highly of it. Anaconda is supposed to be great as well. I ordered some but haven't started it yet. I still train hard and I'm getting towards my late 30s(37) so anything legal that will help is great. I have goals of a legit below parallel squat of over 500lbs (belt only and I'm at 475 now) and I want to jump what I did in college (37"), so I still train heavy and hard.

My Dr friend did say that some of the OTC test supplements were really good, but I didn't ask which ones he was talking about.

For fish oil, I actually have a prescription for Lovaza. Most fish oil caps give me those nasty fish tasting burps.

Alpha Male is basically Tribulus Terrestris. I think most of the science is against Tribulus; I'd actually thought it had been mostly discredited but I hadn't really looked at Tribulus in about 10 years. It's got two other components that are in there to decrease estrogen and stuff. If you feel better with it, great... but I doubt it's making a significant increase to your testosterone levels.

The thing about "testosterone" increasers is that most of them don't work and those that do don't usually raise your test more than a few points. If these test supplements really worked, I think you'd see them being used as a first option for HRT.

I think that all of the writers for that site pretty much HAVE to say good things about the Biotest supplements. I've known a couple of guys that have written for the site (or worked with guys that wrote for the site) and that was the impression I got. They coordinate their articles and the "unleashing" of spiffy new training routines with the unveiling of new supplement lines. I'm not saying their stuff is bad but a lot of the articles have an obligatory section that is just a disguised advertisement.

And, just an FYI, in my last PL comp in 2004, I pulled 475# and squatted 405# at 198# and 43 years old lifting with belt only. (I missed on a 430# squat because I took it too deep and stalled in the hole.) Last year, prior to my liver infection, I had squatted 440 @ 205# but it was at home and not judged; I'm still weak as a kitten and just hit a single at 365 @ 188 last week.

The Pencil Neck
05-16-2010, 12:52 PM
I agree with you 100%. I honestly feel he wasn't using steroids when this whole HCG testing occurred. There are very few steroids that would clear out so fast that it wouldn't be detected during increased HCG levels.. its not like post cycle therapy uses HCG for a long amount of time after a steroid cycle is over. HCG is used during cycle and then maybe right before PCT starts.. and if it was detected because of this and they didn't see steroids they surely would have seen nolvadex or clomid.. He would have to be an ***** to not include one of those in PCT.

I believe the only supps out there that would cause a positive failure on a PEG test are ones that have steroids in them.. basically all the "prohormones" that are or were on the market.

I agree. A steroid user testing positive for hCG and nothing else just doesn't make sense to me. Not even if he's using some ancient pre-clomid/nolvadex cycle. hCG just isn't a drug of choice any more.

This is basically why I've thought that he's probably taking something that's cutting edge that none of us have heard about and that the NFL doesn't test for. I think the hCG elevating was an unintended and unknown side effect.

otisbean
05-17-2010, 08:26 AM
For fish oil, I actually have a prescription for Lovaza. Most fish oil caps give me those nasty fish tasting burps.

Alpha Male is basically Tribulus Terrestris. I think most of the science is against Tribulus; I'd actually thought it had been mostly discredited but I hadn't really looked at Tribulus in about 10 years. It's got two other components that are in there to decrease estrogen and stuff. If you feel better with it, great... but I doubt it's making a significant increase to your testosterone levels.

The thing about "testosterone" increasers is that most of them don't work and those that do don't usually raise your test more than a few points. If these test supplements really worked, I think you'd see them being used as a first option for HRT.

I think that all of the writers for that site pretty much HAVE to say good things about the Biotest supplements. I've known a couple of guys that have written for the site (or worked with guys that wrote for the site) and that was the impression I got. They coordinate their articles and the "unleashing" of spiffy new training routines with the unveiling of new supplement lines. I'm not saying their stuff is bad but a lot of the articles have an obligatory section that is just a disguised advertisement.

And, just an FYI, in my last PL comp in 2004, I pulled 475# and squatted 405# at 198# and 43 years old lifting with belt only. (I missed on a 430# squat because I took it too deep and stalled in the hole.) Last year, prior to my liver infection, I had squatted 440 @ 205# but it was at home and not judged; I'm still weak as a kitten and just hit a single at 365 @ 188 last week.

Oh, I have fishy burps all the time :). I know what your mean about Tmuscle and bio-test, but some of the stuff seems to work well for me. I really like some of their writers (Dan John, Cressey, Robertson ect..) but I never use their programs. I don't know if you were on the site in 04 when they were discussing DBHammer, they basically hammered this guy and now there new Ibodybuilder uses several of his prominent principles. I follow my own programs for the most part, but I read everything I can get my hands on written by good trainers.

You have good numbers, especially for 198. We sound like the opposite, I squat more than I DL. I rarely do straight bar DLs, I use RDLs and the trap bar quite a bit though. If you interested PM me, I have a little 3-4 week strength block that has never failed to add pounds on my squat.