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The Pencil Neck
05-11-2010, 10:46 AM
Would there be any other reason to take this other than as part of a steroid cycle?

I'm not CnD but...

To the best of my knowledge, hCG is never taken alone. It's usually taken with Nolvadex at the end of a cycle. It raises epitestosterone so it can help you mask the use of steroids (testosterone tests usually look at the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone). It leaves the system pretty quickly.

I've said before that professional athletes are and should be trying new drug regimens (of preferably non-banned substances) trying to find a competitive edge. This could be part of some new array of PEDs that I haven't heard of.

SheTexan
05-11-2010, 10:46 AM
High hcg level?? Maybe he's pregnant!!:yikes:

(sorry, couldn't let that one slide! ) :)

Texan_Bill
05-11-2010, 10:49 AM
High hcg level?? Maybe he's pregnant!!:yikes:

(sorry, couldn't let that one slide! ) :)

:lol:


:facepalm: Gma!

The Pencil Neck
05-11-2010, 10:50 AM
How long do cycles last? Lets say he was masking it... but was not taking them by the time the season came around. Would the cycle he possibly tried to cover up enhance his performance that much all season? My concern is his performance moving forward clean.

Look at it this way, a guy cycles during the off season. This allows him to train harder and longer and build up more strength and endurance. Then he cycles off before the season starts. As long as he cycles intelligently, he keeps the majority of the gains he had during the off-season and that enhances his performance during the regular season.

So, he was "clean" during the season but he was bigger, stronger, and faster than he would have been if he hadn't cycled.

GP
05-11-2010, 10:50 AM
You didn't see the response he got from posting a facepalm picture? It's not one-sided here.

Well, there are certain posters on here who are never going to pass up an opportunity to bait someone or to take a jab. Some of it is targeted, and some of it is just poking fun.

There's a lot of anger coming out, on every side, I suppose.

We need to do some trust falls and maybe other team-building exercises. Everyone to the conference room in 5 minutes! :theoffice:

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 10:51 AM
High hcg level?? Maybe he's pregnant!!:yikes:

(sorry, couldn't let that one slide! ) :)

Funny, I was expecting that on Schefter's next Tweet.:spin:

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 10:52 AM
It's hard for me to get out of my mind that he and his stength coach were both alledgedly warned of the substance.........and ignored the warning.

This is from another thread but the same thing strikes me. Do you know whether there are any supplements which can cause an elevated hcg level? Something just doesn't jive here. The league wouldn't warn you about taking a definitional banned substance. I can see them warning about something that might result in elevated levels.

JB
05-11-2010, 10:55 AM
A real good read from Cushings trainer here

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe.html

Thanks TexansChick

http://twitter.com/StephStradley

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 10:56 AM
CnD - do you know whether there are any supplements which can cause an elevated hcg level?

Cak,

There are many diet supplements out there that contain HCG for decreasing weight/fat.

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 11:03 AM
Cak,

There are many diet supplements out there that contain HCG for decreasing weight/fat.

So in other words Cushing might have been taking a supplement to keep his body fat % down, been warned it could elevate his hcg level and then popped positive for an elevated hcg level? And in that scenario there would be no reason to believe his level of play was different other than the effect of carrying some amount of weight?

Kaiser Toro
05-11-2010, 11:04 AM
Im sorry.. I didnt know that you would get so butt hurt over that statement that your sense of humor would shrivel away.

I am not hurt, but those were your words on a negative rep. Butt hurt and shrivel are interesting words to use given that those would be operative words to use for folks on a regimen.

GuerillaBlack
05-11-2010, 11:09 AM
So in other words Cushing might have been taking a supplement to keep his body fat % down, been warned it could elevate his hcg level and then popped positive for an elevated hcg level? And in that scenario there would be no reason to believe his level of play was different other than the effect of carrying some amount of weight?

So, it appears that Cushing is a natural beast.

Good.

We shouldn't expect is play to come down from last season. Hell, with the extra month's rest (unless something miraculous happens), he should be a beast + 1. We can expect for hard knocks, INTs, and safeties from the Cushman this season. Stop worrying people.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 11:13 AM
So in other words Cushing might have been taking a supplement to keep his body fat % down, been warned it could elevate his hcg level and then popped positive for an elevated hcg level? And in that scenario there would be no reason to believe his level of play was different other than the effect of carrying some amount of weight?

Correct. But it's not that simple. It still would stimulate testosterone levels, which would not test abnormally high, if they were already depressed from steroid cycling. No matter what, this is a very messy situation, that as a fan I wish could be explained away, but as a doctor, I know it can't.

GP
05-11-2010, 11:18 AM
Correct. But it still would stimulate testosterone levels, which would not test abnormally high, if they were already depressed from steroid cycling. No matter what, this is a very messy situation, that as a fan I wish could be explained away, but as a doctor, I know it can't.

Only one guy knows for sure. Brian Cushing.

If it's as simple as taking something to keep the weight down, this fan would like to know. Of course, I am sure his lawyers (and other persons employed by certain other entities) are going to tell him to stay quiet and move on.

Anyone here thought about possible Congressional investigations, which would draw out a supplier ("IF" it was to mask steroids, btw)? Or has anyone thought about the supplier coming out and announcing he supplied Cushing with the stuff ("IF" it was to mask steroids, btw)?

This thing is just gettin' warmed up, friends. I think we're about halfway to the truth, and I wonder how we arrive at the full 100%. At some point, it's going to come out. Somebody, somewhere, will talk.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 11:23 AM
Correct. But it's not that simple. It still would stimulate testosterone levels, which would not test abnormally high, if they were already depressed from steroid cycling. No matter what, this is a very messy situation, that as a fan I wish could be explained away, but as a doctor, I know it can't.

So what should Cushing's plan be going forward? Like you said this could get tricky/messy. Assuming this wasn't taken to mask the use of steroids... what if he tests positive for this again? Bad news. If he's doing this to keep his body in the best shape he can then it looks like he's going to have to forego on it, right?

Obviously, this could be used to try and cover the use of even worse stuff, but I'm still holding out and oh so desperately believing that Cushing isn't "cheating". He's a health nut that want to have his body (all sorts of different levels) as perfect and healthy as he can. Right now, I still believe thats what this is all involved with. He's like a chemist or a cook trying to get it just right. So if he has to avoid this "drug" or "ingredient" is it just something he has to live without?

What if next year he tests positive for some other 'drug' that's unrelated to this one and is non-steroidal. Does he get the 1 year suspension even if it's something totally different? This could get pretty bad because he 'takes' so much stuff.

I'd like him to do what he said during the Seahawks game. When told he broke his finger he said something like "you think it's broken? it's okay I'll just drink a glass of milk tonight or something."

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 11:24 AM
Correct. But it's not that simple. It still would stimulate testosterone levels, which would not test abnormally high, if they were already depressed from steroid cycling. No matter what, this is a very messy situation, that as a fan I wish could be explained away, but as a doctor, I know it can't.

But isn't the testing for testosterone level much looser because of the significant variation between individuals? That was the reason given for cycling using the testosterone to epitestosterone ratio instead of just measuring testosterone. Does the NFL use a pure level test or ratio?

dalemurphy
05-11-2010, 11:25 AM
Correct. But it's not that simple. It still would stimulate testosterone levels, which would not test abnormally high, if they were already depressed from steroid cycling. No matter what, this is a very messy situation, that as a fan I wish could be explained away, but as a doctor, I know it can't.

CND, Eliminating all assumptions and names involved, if you were given the following set of facts and asked to draw a conclusion, what conclusion could you draw (medically)?

1. specimen tested positive for elevated hCG levels
2. it was a urine test
3. test was ran twice and tested positive both times
4. no stereoids or masking agents were uncovered in the test.

Given those facts, what is the most likely scenario and how certain can you be about it? why?

Tailgate
05-11-2010, 11:26 AM
not sure if this link has been posted yet...


A source familiar with the Brian Cushing case has revealed more details to ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter. A positive test occurred in early September, and Cushing tested negative for any substance twice before he was ever alerted that he had initially tested positive (both within days of the initial positive test). And after being alerted of the positive test Brian was tested randomly numerous times throughout the season and never tested positive. In addition, the test was positive for slightly elevated levels of hCG (a non-steroidal substance - hCG is a hormone produced naturally by the body). The level that he tested positive for was so low that it would not have been considered a "positive" test even a year ago.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/blog/sportscenter/post/_/id/50914/9a-etmore-details-in-the-brian-cushing-casenew-shade-of-orange-for-orange-bowljason-heyward-close-to-returning

GP
05-11-2010, 11:32 AM
All those who flunked chemistry class must now excuse themselves from this conversation. Starting with ME.

This makes my brain hurt.

Alert me when this is solved.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 11:35 AM
CND, Eliminating all assumptions and names involved, if you were given the following set of facts and asked to draw a conclusion, what conclusion could you draw (medically)?

1. specimen tested positive for elevated hCG levels
2. it was a urine test
3. test was ran twice and tested positive both times
4. no stereoids or masking agents were uncovered in the test.

Given those facts, what is the most likely scenario and how certain can you be about it? why?

5. testee may or may not have masterbated that morning...


I'm sorry, I couldn't help it. :choke:

Errant Hothy
05-11-2010, 11:36 AM
not sure if this link has been posted yet...



http://proxy.espn.go.com/blog/sportscenter/post/_/id/50914/9a-etmore-details-in-the-brian-cushing-casenew-shade-of-orange-for-orange-bowljason-heyward-close-to-returning

So if I'm understanding this right, Cushing passed two tests, pingged a positive and then passed every test the rest of the season? Wouldn't that rule out the "coming off of a cycle theory"? Also, where the numbers in guestion low enough for Cush to failed test while taking a supplement?

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 11:36 AM
So what should Cushing's plan be going forward? Like you said this could get tricky/messy. Assuming this wasn't taken to mask the use of steroids... what if he tests positive for this again? Bad news. If he's doing this to keep his body in the best shape he can then it looks like he's going to have to forego on it, right?

Obviously, this could be used to try and cover the use of even worse stuff, but I'm still holding out and oh so desperately believing that Cushing isn't "cheating". He's a health nut that want to have his body (all sorts of different levels) as perfect and healthy as he can. Right now, I still believe thats what this is all involved with. He's like a chemist or a cook trying to get it just right. So if he has to avoid this "drug" or "ingredient" is it just something he has to live without?

What if next year he tests positive for some other 'drug' that's unrelated to this one and is non-steroidal. Does he get the 1 year suspension even if it's something totally different? This could get pretty bad because he 'takes' so much stuff.

I'd like him to do what he said during the Seahawks game. When told he broke his finger he said something like "you think it's broken? it's okay I'll just drink a glass of milk tonight or something."

Cushing is no dummy, and as others have noted, he is "very careful" about what he takes in. Further worrisome is the alledgedly ignored "warning." I have to ask you, what over-the-counter effective supplement used specifically to lose weight (not water weight)/fat would not have an ingredient that contains or stimulates the production of a banned substance?...............I can't think of one. I would bet Cushing can't either.

Runner
05-11-2010, 11:36 AM
I find that this thread has taken a very interesting turn. There is a lot of good reading here.

BSofA04
05-11-2010, 11:39 AM
not sure if this link has been posted yet...



http://proxy.espn.go.com/blog/sportscenter/post/_/id/50914/9a-etmore-details-in-the-brian-cushing-casenew-shade-of-orange-for-orange-bowljason-heyward-close-to-returning

So his play during the season was what we hoped it was, beastly. If he's being tested randomly throughout the season and tested negative for the remainder of the season, it's safe to assume that his play is representative of what we can expect for the remainder of his career.

Tailgate
05-11-2010, 11:40 AM
Cushing is no dummy, and as others have noted, he is "very careful" about what he takes in. Further worrisome is the alledgedly ignored "warning." I have to ask you, what over-the-counter effective supplement used specifically to lose weight (not water weight)/fat would not have an ingredient that contains or stimulates the production of a banned substance?...............I can't think of one. I would bet Cushing can't either.

Maybe I am missing it... but then where would the warning come from?

SheTexan
05-11-2010, 11:44 AM
I find that this thread has taken a very interesting turn. There is a lot of good reading here.

Yep! Gonna run out to the diet Doc and get me a couple shots of HCG so I can be nice and skinny by Sept!!:winky: Sure wish it could be that easy!

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 11:48 AM
But isn't the testing for testosterone level much looser because of the significant variation between individuals? That was the reason given for cycling using the testosterone to epitestosterone ratio instead of just measuring testosterone. Does the NFL use a pure level test or ratio?

The normal ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone is 1:1. When you are doping, at even low levels, the ratio increases to at least 2-3:1. The NFL, just like the Tour de France tests both substances simultaneously. The former uses a 4:1 ratio as a fail, while the NFL is quite generous with a 6:1 ratio before it triggers a fail. The NFL, it can be seen, only fails "flagrant" cases.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 11:48 AM
Cushing is no dummy, and as others have noted, he is "very careful" about what he takes in. Further worrisome is the alledgedly ignored "warning." I have to ask you, what over-the-counter effective supplement used specifically to lose weight (not water weight)/fat would not have an ingredient that contains or stimulates the production of a banned substance?...............I can't think of one. I would bet Cushing can't either.

Maybe I am missing it... but then where would the warning come from?

I'm coming from the same place. Oh and don't ask me to name any over OR under the counter medicine. The extent of my 'know how' is pretty much Vitamin C packets you poor in your water bottle. :truck:

But I just get this gut feeling Cushing was taking this stuff for reasons of trying to get his body in perfect shape (not to mask steroid/PEDs or whatever). Don't get me wrong, he and the trainer were warned and that does get me wrong. But with that, I feel like it may have been one of those, "hey I know why you're taking this but it could effect some of your natural hormones/testosterone that might trigger something in a test". I hope it wasn't told to them: take this and you're going to fail. I think in their heart they knew it wasn't anything bad and that IF for some reason a test picked up on it, it would be such a minute level that it could easily be explained.

It doesn't change the fact that they were taking a risk and now he's suspended. That sucks, royally. But I still WANT to believe their intentions were good and this is essentially a bunch of technical B.S. :)

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 11:49 AM
Yep! Gonna run out to the diet Doc and get me a couple shots of HCG so I can be nice and skinny by Sept!!:winky: Sure wish it could be that easy!

Well then I better get you a good shaver, GMa!

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 11:50 AM
The level that he tested positive for was so low that it would not have been considered a "positive" test even a year ago.

From the link above.

Interesting. So they just lowered the standard.

Wish we had the test results so CnD could tell us just how slightly elevated his result was.

And now knowing the substance this is not a case of stupid to take something on the banned list. It isn't banned. It's level is restricted. That is a significant difference.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 11:52 AM
A real good read from Cushings trainer here

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe.html

Thanks TexansChick

http://twitter.com/StephStradley

Awesome read, thanks for the link. Kind of gave me the chills!

drewmar74
05-11-2010, 11:54 AM
5. testee may or may not have masterbated that morning...


I'm sorry, I couldn't help it. :choke:

Maybe that's what the team warned him about -

Texans Official: "Cush. Quit doing that or you'll go blind. How are you going to play SAM if you can't see? How are you going to snag picks with hairy palms?"

Brian Cushing: "Those are just myths. There is nothing wrong with doing that."

Texans Official: "Well, it might cause you to test positive for HGC which could result in a suspension."

Brian Cushing: "Nuh-uh. No way. Not true."

Texans Official: "Every time you do it a puppy dies."

Brian Cushing: "I have to go. Little Brian has been bad and must be disciplined."

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 11:55 AM
CND, Eliminating all assumptions and names involved, if you were given the following set of facts and asked to draw a conclusion, what conclusion could you draw (medically)?

1. specimen tested positive for elevated hCG levels
2. it was a urine test
3. test was ran twice and tested positive both times
4. no stereoids or masking agents were uncovered in the test.

Given those facts, what is the most likely scenario and how certain can you be about it? why?

I have a difficult time eliminating anything from the menu of bad things we've already discussed.

HoustonFrog
05-11-2010, 12:09 PM
I have a difficult time eliminating anything from the menu of bad things we've already discussed.

CND, I appreciate your help here. I appreciate you giving it to people straight. I know you don't have a definite answer but I also don't see you sugarcoating it or looking for a built in excuse. Nice work.

silvrhand
05-11-2010, 12:12 PM
Cushing is no dummy, and as others have noted, he is "very careful" about what he takes in. Further worrisome is the alledgedly ignored "warning." I have to ask you, what over-the-counter effective supplement used specifically to lose weight (not water weight)/fat would not have an ingredient that contains or stimulates the production of a banned substance?...............I can't think of one. I would bet Cushing can't either.

I'm pretty sure some of the more aggressive Nitric Oxide supplements would do that but honestly if there's smoke there's fire. The # of natural freaks even in the NFL is limited, and Cushing well there were rumors of steroids, he "supposedly" failed a test, and now has been suspended.

IMHO, at this point I personally think he's cycling something, I gave him the benefit of the doubt but now that is gone.

GP
05-11-2010, 12:13 PM
And now knowing the substance this is not a case of stupid to take something on the banned list. It isn't banned. It's level is restricted. That is a significant difference.

OK, so where is the official NFL statement on this? I thought the media (Or Cushing, via the media) had released that it was a non-steroidal substance.

This means there is a definitive substance that the NFL found, or are we now at the point where the NFL did not "find" the so-called substance but noticed that his level ratio was not within their current acceptable limits?

What is the current acceptable ratio for the NFL. CND has said, unless I am taking the post out-of-context or misunderstood, that the ratio is still considered to be a flagrant fail...not something very narrow like 2:1; more along the lines of either 3:1 or 4:1. (where the NFL potentially HAs or HAD been at 6:1 according to CND)?

If he is hitting ratios that are above 2:1 or even 3:1.....then doesn't it seem likely that things are not accidental here? Though how he is able to ping negative tests all around this one isolated test is fascinating indeed.

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 12:19 PM
OK, so where is the official NFL statement on this? I thought the media (Or Cushing, via the media) had released that it was a non-steroidal substance.

This means there is a definitive substance that the NFL found, or are we now at the point where the NFL did not "find" the so-called substance but noticed that his level ratio was not within their current acceptable limits?

What is the current acceptable ratio for the NFL. CND has said, unless I am taking the post out-of-context or misunderstood, that the ratio is still considered to be a flagrant fail...not something very narrow like 2:1; more along the lines of either 3:1 or 4:1. (where it HAD been at 6:1 according to CND)?

Well to my knowledge CnD didn't supply any numbers and frankly as I stated above the standard tested for is almost irrelevant as we don't know the number of the test result. Have to have both in order to say how outside of ordinary the result was. This was not a ratio test and has been described as barely failing the recently lowered test. Now what CnD did say is in ordinary people generally this substance is so minimal it is hard to detect in most circumstances.

My point with the post you quoted was John Lopez and others have been acting as if he was dumb for not being able to read a list or for choosing to ignore a list because the substance was absolutely banned. Turns out it isn't banned. Your level just can't exceed a certain amount. Turns out it can be used after a cycle and also turns out it can be used for weight/fat loss.

silvrhand
05-11-2010, 12:23 PM
My point with the post you quoted was John Lopez and others have been acting as if he was dumb for not being able to read a list or for choosing to ignore a list because the substance was absolutely banned. Turns out it isn't banned. Your level just can't exceed a certain amount. Turns out it can be used after a cycle and also turns out it can be used for weight/fat loss.

Well then he should have known what the limit was and where he was at if that is the case, these guys make way too much money not to have someone maintaining their diet/supplement routines. If I was him and taking those types of supplements then I'd have myself tested, and make sure i'm not above the level, but hey he didn't know he was pushing it right? I'm going to raise the bs flag, he was pushing it and he knew it.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 12:23 PM
From the link above.

Interesting. So they just lowered the standard.

Wish we had the test results so CnD could tell us just how slightly elevated his result was.

And now knowing the substance this is not a case of stupid to take something on the banned list. It isn't banned. It's level is restricted. That is a significant difference.

Cak,

That would be more a play on words. HCG is on the banned substance list (http://www.nflplayers.com/about-us/Rules--Regulations/Player-Policies/Banned-Substances/) Just like any naturally occuring substances, though, abnormally high fail levels are established (such as the case with testosterone).

GP
05-11-2010, 12:26 PM
Your level just can't exceed a certain amount. Turns out it can be used after a cycle and also turns out it can be used for weight/fat loss.

But this is all predicated upon unknowns:

1. Was it to compensate for the after-effects of steroidal use

or

2. Was it a powdered substance mixed in with fruits and into a shake, to lose weight and keep it off (an "iffy" type of non-steroidal supplement, for example)

Cushing, IIRC, is the one saying "Non-steroidal" substance.

I just am having a hard time placing my trust in either (a) what Cushing says, or (b) what my heart wants to believe (the weight loss theory). My head is overriding my heart until things change dramatically.

The Pencil Neck
05-11-2010, 12:26 PM
OK, so where is the official NFL statement on this? I thought the media (Or Cushing, via the media) had released that it was a non-steroidal substance.

This means there is a definitive substance that the NFL found, or are we now at the point where the NFL did not "find" the so-called substance but noticed that his level ratio was not within their current acceptable limits?

What is the current acceptable ratio for the NFL. CND has said, unless I am taking the post out-of-context or misunderstood, that the ratio is still considered to be a flagrant fail...not something very narrow like 2:1; more along the lines of either 3:1 or 4:1. (where the NFL potentially HAs or HAD been at 6:1 according to CND)?

If he is hitting ratios that are above 2:1 or even 3:1.....then doesn't it seem likely that things are not accidental here? Though how he is able to ping negative tests all around this one isolated test is fascinating indeed.

Well, when you're testing someone, you don't "find" the compound, you find elevated levels and incorrect ratios.

When CnD was talking about the test/epitest ratio, he was talking about the test to detect steroid use. And that's not the test that Cush failed. Cush's test/epitest ratios were within the allowed limits. (Which happen to be loose enough to allow almost everyone in the NFL to be doing light cycles of steroids, I think.)

Cush failed an hCG test. And his hCG was just "slightly" elevated. The hCG levels were changed in the past year and Cush would not have failed at the testing levels used in previous years. But I'm not sure with the hCG test what that means in terms of amounts.

The thing about hCG is that it doesn't last very long in the blood system. You've only got a few days that you can test and see the elevated level after use.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 12:27 PM
OK, so where is the official NFL statement on this? I thought the media (Or Cushing, via the media) had released that it was a non-steroidal substance.

This means there is a definitive substance that the NFL found, or are we now at the point where the NFL did not "find" the so-called substance but noticed that his level ratio was not within their current acceptable limits?

What is the current acceptable ratio for the NFL. CND has said, unless I am taking the post out-of-context or misunderstood, that the ratio is still considered to be a flagrant fail...not something very narrow like 2:1; more along the lines of either 3:1 or 4:1. (where the NFL potentially HAs or HAD been at 6:1 according to CND)?

If he is hitting ratios that are above 2:1 or even 3:1.....then doesn't it seem likely that things are not accidental here? Though how he is able to ping negative tests all around this one isolated test is fascinating indeed.

The ratios I gave were concerning testosterone:epitestosterone.

GP
05-11-2010, 12:29 PM
The ratios I gave were concerning testosterone:epitestosterone.

Officially, then, we are really dealing with the hCG situation?

The hCG levels raised a flag with the NFL and they acted accordingly. ?

(Therefore and thusly, Brian can stand on a podium and maintain that he has not tested for the presence of a steroid substance. The league found none, but they did find raised hCG levels. The league is maintaining that the raised hCG levels are, in essence, proof that other sordid events were going on ?)

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 12:31 PM
Well, when you're testing someone, you don't "find" the compound, you find elevated levels and incorrect ratios.

When CnD was talking about the test/epitest ratio, he was talking about the test to detect steroid use. And that's not the test that Cush failed. Cush's test/epitest ratios were within the allowed limits. (Which happen to be loose enough to allow almost everyone in the NFL to be doing light cycles of steroids, I think.)

Cush failed an hCG test. And his hCG was just "slightly" elevated. The hCG levels were changed in the past year and Cush would not have failed at the testing levels used in previous years. But I'm not sure with the hCG test what that means in terms of amounts.

The thing about hCG is that it doesn't last very long in the blood system. You've only got a few days that you can test and see the elevated level after use.

Usually by 10 days, it's gone.......but sometimes it can be longer.

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 12:33 PM
Well then he should have known what the limit was and where he was at if that is the case, these guys make way too much money not to have someone maintaining their diet/supplement routines. If I was him and taking those types of supplements then I'd have myself tested, and make sure i'm not above the level, but hey he didn't know he was pushing it right? I'm going to raise the bs flag, he was pushing it and he knew it.

Well pushing what matters to me. Has he successfully beat a lie detector test and was really coming off steroids or was he pushing the limit on keeping his body fat at a specific level? Either way it may be dumb but it makes a difference in my judgment of the person and will make a difference on what to expect in his level of play in the future.

Cak,

That would be more a play on words. HCG is on the banned substance list (http://www.nflplayers.com/about-us/Rules--Regulations/Player-Policies/Banned-Substances/) Just like any naturally occuring substances, though, abnormally high fail levels are established (such as the case with testosterone).

I mean call it play on words if you want but banned at any detectable level and banned above an arbitrarily set level are different to me. I tried to give an example of Floyd Landis where such arbitrary standards can lead to misleading results. I'm just having a hard time putting the pieces together on this. "The NFL warned." Well so the NFL knew and doesn't have an outright prohibition. How did the NFL know? If it was after a steroid cycle why would you let either the team trainer (unless there is an organized team steroid program) know or the NFL know?

The normal ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone is 1:1. When you are doping, at even low levels, the ratio increases to at least 2-3:1. The NFL, just like the Tour de France tests both substances simultaneously. The former uses a 4:1 ratio as a fail, while the NFL is quite generous with a 6:1 ratio before it triggers a fail. The NFL, it can be seen, only fails "flagrant" cases.

My point was the odd scenario for Landis. It wasn't that he had abnormally high testosterone. He popped positive for having abnormally low epitestosterone thus throwing the ratio out of limits. Haven't heard any explanation of any performance enhancement program that results in abnormally low epi with normal testosterone.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 12:42 PM
Well pushing what matters to me. Has he successfully beat a lie detector test and was really coming off steroids or was he pushing the limit on keeping his body fat at a specific level? Either way it may be dumb but it makes a difference in my judgment of the person and will make a difference on what to expect in his level of play in the future.



I mean call it play on words if you want but banned at any detectable level and banned above an arbitrarily set level are different to me. I tried to give an example of Floyd Landis where such arbitrary standards can lead to misleading results. I'm just having a hard time putting the pieces together on this. "The NFL warned." Well so the NFL knew and doesn't have an outright prohibition. How did the NFL know? If it was after a steroid cycle why would you let either the team trainer (unless there is an organized team steroid program) know or the NFL know?

I doubt seriously that the NFL dropped the limit arbitrarily. Most likely the previous testing method was not sensitive enough to detect below a certain limit. As with the history of most lab tests, new more sensitive and specific tests evolve as the science becomes more sophisticated. The aforementioned also makes sense in that such minute amounts would ever be expected in a naturally occuring situation.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 12:49 PM
Well pushing what matters to me. Has he successfully beat a lie detector test and was really coming off steroids or was he pushing the limit on keeping his body fat at a specific level? Either way it may be dumb but it makes a difference in my judgment of the person and will make a difference on what to expect in his level of play in the future.



I mean call it play on words if you want but banned at any detectable level and banned above an arbitrarily set level are different to me. I tried to give an example of Floyd Landis where such arbitrary standards can lead to misleading results. I'm just having a hard time putting the pieces together on this. "The NFL warned." Well so the NFL knew and doesn't have an outright prohibition. How did the NFL know? If it was after a steroid cycle why would you let either the team trainer (unless there is an organized team steroid program) know or the NFL know?



My point was the odd scenario for Landis. It wasn't that he had abnormally high testosterone. He popped positive for having abnormally low epitestosterone thus throwing the ratio out of limits. Haven't heard any explanation of any performance enhancement program that results in abnormally low epi with normal testosterone.

If the labs or NFL haven't figured that one out, let me offer up something.
Getting blitzed on alcohol will definitely cause significant raise in testosterone and significant lowering in epitestosterone..........even in women.

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 01:00 PM
Only for typical medical conditions related to naturally low testosterone conditions.

Actually...


HCG has become a pretty huge diet fad drug. I'm a bit surprised you didn't know about this.

And it's not a federally scheduled substance.

Runner
05-11-2010, 01:03 PM
I assume Cushing and his team explored every means available to convince the NFL that the test result occurred as a result of completely legal activity. The NFL upheld the suspension.

Questions:

How often does the NFL change a suspension upon appeal?

Are the NFL limits set so loosely in the players' favor that a failed test shouldn't be overturned without significant evidence to the contrary?

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 01:05 PM
PFT calls for the same thing we've been saying here all along about "show me the meat.". LINK (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/11/pft-daily-league-union-need-to-ditch-steroids-policy-confidentiality/)

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 01:07 PM
Actually...


HCG has become a pretty huge diet fad drug. I'm a bit surprised you didn't know about this.

And it's not a federally scheduled substance.

It's not a prudent medically recognized use of HCG.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 01:16 PM
The # of natural freaks even in the NFL is limited, and Cushing well there were rumors of steroids, he "supposedly" failed a test, and now has been suspended.

IMHO, at this point I personally think he's cycling something, I gave him the benefit of the doubt but now that is gone.

I'm not saying he's not but let's think about the report indicating he "tested positive for steroids at the Combine" last year. I refuse to believe that THAT is actually true. If he tested positive for steroids then, don't you think the NFL would have done something about it? The only explanation I would have if it's true is that, there's something else in the pipeline. First they deal with this testing from September all the while the NFL is working on another case against Cushing from February 09 (7 months earlier)? They wait until after the season for this test but for a positive steroid test in February, 6 months before the season starts... they let him play the entire season and still havn't told him anything? Maybe that just takes even longer to process and then appeal but I get the feeling that the report for 'steroid' use is false. That's just way too fishy for me to believe it's lingerong on 15 months after the fact.

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 01:26 PM
You guys have covered a lot of stuff this morning. There is one thing I haven't seen covered though.

There are all sorts of herbal methods of raising your testosterone levels. There are also non-herbal but non-steroidal methods, like the ZMA stack. As far as I know, many of these natural methods of raising test levels are banned by fiat because of the ratio deal. Since hCG is also a naturally produced compound, isn't it possible, if not likely, that a slightly elevated level could be caused by some combination of herbal/chemical supplements? I mean even B vitamins can cause increases in certain hormone levels, including HGH and test.

This whole thing is just silly to me. hCG in no way shape or form enhances performance. It's naturally produced. Cushing failed it by apparently a miniscule amount. There are a thousand reasons he could have had a miniscule amount like that. In fact, I'm right now picturing a vulgar situation not suitable for explanation that consists of Brian and a pregnant or menstruating woman. Yeah.

A slightly elevated level of a natural substance that may or may not have been used around the same time of an actually performance enhancing substance that in no way was shown to be used....... that's great. It's a good thing the NFL isn't a court because that doesn't pass the reasonable doubt test, not even close. Considering that Shawne Merriman flat out failed for an anabolic steroid and got 4 games, I'd say it's not exactly fair for Cushing to get 4 games for this seriously border case, if it's a case at all.

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 01:27 PM
It's not a prudent medically recognized use of HCG.
Sure... but we all know how much "medically recognized" really tells us about a substance.

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 01:38 PM
I doubt seriously that the NFL dropped the limit arbitrarily. Most likely the previous testing method was not sensitive enough to detect below a certain limit. As with the history of most lab tests, new more sensitive and specific tests evolve as the science becomes more sophisticated. The aforementioned also makes sense in that such minute amounts would ever be expected in a naturally occuring situation.

I don't mean arbitrary as unreasoned but as stuck at a discretionary line. You may be correct that they have it set as low as the test permits or something similar on the change.

I assume Cushing and his team explored every means available to convince the NFL that the test result occurred as a result of completely legal activity. The NFL upheld the suspension.

Questions:

How often does the NFL change a suspension upon appeal?

Are the NFL limits set so loosely in the players' favor that a failed test shouldn't be overturned without significant evidence to the contrary?

General answer, we just don't know. We do know the NFL fights even when it makes no sense as in the StarCaps cases where the manufacturer did not list the banned ingredient on the label.

Real interesting point from AJ:

What I find interesting is the Independent Administrator reports the findings to the NFL Management Council. The NFL MC 'executive committee' consists of 10 owners (but not Bob McNair in 2010) So is it possible that Jerry Jones (who's on the NFL MC Exec Comm) knew about Cushing but McNair didn't?

Alan Burge, Houston

That's dumb.

gtexan02
05-11-2010, 01:44 PM
You know, when this whole thing clears, it will be interesting to see if theres some sort of legal action

ESPN came out and publically reported that Cushing tested positive for steroids. It said that exact phrase on their ticker.

Now that its been clarified to PEDs, they still haven't retracted anything.

Theres a big difference between PEDs and steroids.

But why hasn't Cushing said what it was he took? Very strange situation

JB
05-11-2010, 01:49 PM
You know, when this whole thing clears, it will be interesting to see if theres some sort of legal action

ESPN came out and publically reported that Cushing tested positive for steroids. It said that exact phrase on their ticker.

Now that its been clarified to PEDs, they still haven't retracted anything.

Theres a big difference between PEDs and steroids.

But why hasn't Cushing said what it was he took? Very strange situation


After reading what his trainer wrote, I think ushing has not said anything because his lawyer wants explore the options for legal action.

Rey
05-11-2010, 01:49 PM
But why hasn't Cushing said what it was he took? Very strange situation

Maybe he's trying to let the facts come out first and kinda let things sink in before making a statement. I dunno.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 01:52 PM
Real interesting point from AJ:

What I find interesting is the Independent Administrator reports the findings to the NFL Management Council. The NFL MC 'executive committee' consists of 10 owners (but not Bob McNair in 2010) So is it possible that Jerry Jones (who's on the NFL MC Exec Comm) knew about Cushing but McNair didn't?

Alan Burge, Houston

That's dumb.

Interesting. I wonder when the 2010 schedule was finalized.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 01:54 PM
I don't mean arbitrary as unreasoned but as stuck at a discretionary line. You may be correct that they have it set as low as the test permits or something similar on the change.


I also would certainly hope that none of the testing is "stuck at a discretionary line."

Goldensilence
05-11-2010, 01:58 PM
Maybe he's trying to let the facts come out first and kinda let things sink in before making a statement. I dunno.

This and exploring the legal ramifications are the only reason I can think as to why he's still be silent on the matter.

Interesting read this morning.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 01:59 PM
You know, when this whole thing clears, it will be interesting to see if theres some sort of legal action

ESPN came out and publically reported that Cushing tested positive for steroids. It said that exact phrase on their ticker.

Now that its been clarified to PEDs, they still haven't retracted anything.

Theres a big difference between PEDs and steroids.

But why hasn't Cushing said what it was he took? Very strange situation
Is this substance actually a Performance Enhancing Drug or is it just a substance on the banned substance list? I'm asking because I've already forgetten. LOL. But I agree with your post - vastly different that a Steroid. I also think something on the banned substance list may not even have to be a PED though?
After reading what his trainer wrote, I think ushing has not said anything because his lawyer wants explore the options for legal action.
That's what I'm thinking as well. I think the smartest thing for him to do is listen to his PR and Attorney teams. Even if completely innocent, it's best to be careful what is said or done.

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 02:02 PM
I also think something on the banned substance list may not even have to be a PED though?

Like hCG, for example.

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 02:13 PM
I also would certainly hope that none of the testing is "stuck at a discretionary line."

Well of course it is discretionary. Look at the testosterone/epi ratio we were talking about. Cycling chose 4-1. The NFL chose 6-1. Tomorrow they could choose 3.459-1. There isn't an objectively correct answer. It's discretionary.

Is this substance actually a Performance Enhancing Drug or is it just a substance on the banned substance list? I'm asking because I've already forgetten. LOL. But I agree with your post - vastly different that a Steroid. I also think something on the banned substance list may not even have to be a PED though?

There are lots of things on the PED list which are not themselves PEDs. Anything associated with masking or recovering from PEDs is on the list. This substance can evidently raise testosterone levels which have been reduced by steroid use so that is why it is on the list.

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 02:14 PM
There are lots of things on the PED list which are not themselves PEDs. Anything associated with masking or recovering from PEDs is on the list. This substance can evidently raise testosterone levels which have been reduced by steroid use so that is why it is on the list.
It doesn't actually raise testosterone levels. It restores function of the testicles which then produce testosterone back to normal levels. This happens naturally without hCG but the process is slower.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 02:23 PM
This also really interesting from a PR standpoint. Some people (any industry) come right out and make a statement when something like this happens, some people never make a public statement whatsoever. There are different beliefs as to what's better, but in either case consistently doing that is key.

In Cushing's case (assuming he's "innocent" in the best light he can be) I like the way he's handled it so far. Here's a hypothetical series of events:

1. ESPN breaks news that Cushing tested positive for steroids and is supsended for the first 4 games of 2010 season.
2. Media/Fans go into a frenzy talking about this, debating about it, about steroid usage in general, some people become angry.
3. Then Cushing makes a statement that the substance was "non-steroidal" and that he's NEVER tested positive for them.
4. Media/Fans go into a frenzy again with new "facts". Some call B.S., some fears are alleviated, people's reactions start to waiver and aren't quite as worried about it. Suspension still happening but their ill feelings towards Cushing starts to subside.
5. It's reported that the test in question was from September 2009.
6. Media/Fans detract from attacking Cushing and start harping on the NFL and why its taking so long, etc etc. Still, the ill-feeling against Cushing on a personal level continues to subside.
7. It gets reported that the AP is going to re-vote for 2009's DROY award.
8. Media/Fans continue to detract from attacking Cushing and switch focus onto how DUMB the AP is. Reports are coming out that the writers will probably vote for Cushing again. The "humanizing" of Cushing continues as people are more "for him" and "against the AP".
9. Then his trainer writes a blog regarding how innocent Cushing is, how he works harder than any other person and isn't a cheater. Also talks about how Cushing is finding out his true friends/family vs. Glazer and those that instantly throw him under the bus.
10. Then news gets released that its this hCG stuff, which "proves" it wasn't a steroid.
11. Media/fans discuss what this 'drug' is for and it's effects and how Cushing apparently was "barely" over the limit they allow you to have. It's also reported that this 'can' be used at the end of a steroid cycle - causing some fans to requestion things. Still, apparently was tested throughout the season and never failed another test for any reason.
-----
*** Now we're at present day. There's still turmoil, people still want to know what Cushing took exactly, and why, etc etc. But right now Cushing is MUCH more humanized, he has more people not 'quite' as worried about this (other than the suspension) than when it first broke wind. After this happens is when another announcement typically goes over better. When people's emotions are still at an all time high, an announcement RARELY carries the same weight as when things start to calm down.

Chances are the 4 game suspension is set and there's nothing he can do about that. Right now, it's all about trying to preserve his image to the Media and Fanbase. I think he's going about this the right way, I expect an announcement from him but I think it's best to wait until more people aren't ruffled by this. He told us it was non-steroidal, that's the best thing he could do at the beginning. Not to mention he's apparently having some family issues with a sick/dead aunt??? If that's the case, he needs to approach that first.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 02:30 PM
There are lots of things on the PED list which are not themselves PEDs. Anything associated with masking or recovering from PEDs is on the list. This substance can evidently raise testosterone levels which have been reduced by steroid use so that is why it is on the list.

Okay that's what I figured. So in my mind (not that it matters) I rank it as follows:

1. Steroid - Worse case scenario
2. PED - Not as bad as Steroid but still fails the test b/c its a performance enhancer
3. Anciallary Drugs - Are on the list solely as 'red flags' or 'triggers' that a Steroid or PED may have been used. Does not prove either were used. There are also typically other reasons why that particular drug could have been used.

Obviously if it's on the list, it's on the list and its a violation of rules. But I think categories 1 and 2 are automatic fails. Category 3, to me, just raises a suspicion but it doesn't prove anything and there can be tons of mitigating reasons why the test found this.

Cushing apparently felt like there were sufficient mitigating factors of why Cat 3 popped up but the NFL felt differently. To me, this is like getting a speeding ticket going 8 mph over. Sucks, you got caught, you're guilty, you still have to pay the fine... but it's not like you were involved in a hit and run going double the speed limit. eh?

The Pencil Neck
05-11-2010, 02:35 PM
Actually...


HCG has become a pretty huge diet fad drug. I'm a bit surprised you didn't know about this.

And it's not a federally scheduled substance.

Personally, I haven't been following the latest weight-loss fads.

TexansFight
05-11-2010, 02:37 PM
The NFL under Fuhrer Goodell has become a punitive, lack of common sense league with way too much of a bullshit "get tough" faux tough guy attitude IMO.

Obviously, the NFL is not a criminal court and doesn't have to abide by "no reasonable doubt" burden of proof.

Nevertheless, there is enough doubt IMO that Brian Cushing 2009 Defensive Rookie of the Year and supreme badass needs to be given a pass and this suspension needs to be rescinded ASAP.

Look, I remember a snowboarder in the 1998 Winter Olympics had his gold medal taken away and later returned for having weed in his system. He said he was at a party before the Olympic where marijuana was being smoked and got second hand smoke. The IOC which is MUCH tougher when it come to testing and suspensions bought his excuse.

Cushing can legitimately claim that he ****ed a girl right before his piss test. Slightly elevated levels of HCG are present right after sex.

All I am saying there are plausible NATURALLY OCCURRING reasons for his test results. It's a joke that in today's NFL something like that can cause a player to lose a QUARTER of their salary and cause the team to suffer as well.

Rey
05-11-2010, 02:41 PM
Cushing can legitimately claim that he ****ed a girl right before his piss test. Slightly elevated levels of HCG are present right after sex.


I'm not an expert on this stuff, so can this really be used as a legitimate excuse for the elevated levels of HCG?

There is a lot of evidence in Cushing's favor at this point, and to me it's seeming more and more plausible that he didn't use roids.

TexansFight
05-11-2010, 02:41 PM
I hope Cushing and the Texans sue the NFL and get an injunction lifting the suspension like in the StarCaps case. The NFL under Goodell are acting like complete pricks IMO. The players were ****ed in the StarCaps case and it looks more and more like Cushing is getting screwed too.

TexansFight
05-11-2010, 02:42 PM
I'm not an expert on this stuff, but can this really be used as a legitimate excuse for the elevated levels of HCG?

There is a lot of evidence in Cushing's favor at this point, and to me it's seeming more and more plausible that he didn't use roids.

The Mighty Gwinn and Matt Thomas are saying this on the air today on 790.

ChampionTexan
05-11-2010, 02:47 PM
The NFL under Fuhrer Goodell has become a punitive, lack of common sense league with way too much of a bullshit "get tough" faux tough guy attitude IMO.

Obviously, the NFL is not a criminal court and doesn't have to abide by "no reasonable doubt" burden of proof.

Nevertheless, there is enough doubt IMO that Brian Cushing 2009 Defensive Rookie of the Year and supreme badass needs to be given a pass and this suspension needs to be rescinded ASAP.



Cushing has said nothing beyond "non-steroidal". The NFL has said nothing because they can't. The Texans have said nothing because they don't know. That leaves internet speculation, and unsourced statements from Adam Schefter.

How can you possibly say there is enough doubt to rescind the suspension given that we know virtually nothing that's confirmable?

HoustonFrog
05-11-2010, 02:54 PM
I hope Cushing and the Texans sue the NFL and get an injunction lifting the suspension like in the StarCaps case. The NFL under Goodell are acting like complete pricks IMO. The players were ****ed in the StarCaps case and it looks more and more like Cushing is getting screwed too.

How is he getting screwed?He tested over the limit on levels that were set by the NFLs standards. It's that simple. He did that. There has been nothing to show that he accidentally took something that wasn't labeled correctly, etc.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 02:55 PM
Well of course it is discretionary. Look at the testosterone/epi ratio we were talking about. Cycling chose 4-1. The NFL chose 6-1. Tomorrow they could choose 3.459-1. There isn't an objectively correct answer. It's discretionary.

I can't speak for exact numbers, but the differences of acceptable ratios between the NFL and Cycling entities have a solid basis. Studies have shown that athletes that are lean and thin and involved in long distance continuous exercise such as cycling and marathon running will have as much as half the testosterone levels as a couch potato, and still significantly decreased levels compared to other non-continuous exertive sports such as weightlifting and football where testosterone experiences a boost. With epitestosterone essentially being constant, this would explain the discrepancy of the higher testosterone tolerance limits set for the NFL vs Cycling ratios

Runner
05-11-2010, 03:06 PM
I can't speak for exact numbers, but the differences of acceptable ratios between the NFL and Cycling entities have a solid basis. Studies have shown that athletes that are lean and thin and involved in long distance continuous exercise such as cycling and marathon running will have as much as half the testosterone levels as a couch potato, and still significantly decreased levels compared to other non-continuous exertive sports such as weightlifting and football where testosterone experiences a boost. With epitestosterone essentially being constant, this would explain the discrepancy of the higher testosterone tolerance limits set for the NFL vs Cycling ratios

You almost make it sound like these governing sports bodies aren't just a bunch of doofuses (spelled correctly, I checked). At least it appears they try to base their standards on science.

I won't go into the political side of the testing and enforcement...

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 03:14 PM
I can't speak for exact numbers, but the differences of acceptable ratios between the NFL and Cycling entities have a solid basis. Studies have shown that athletes that are lean and thin and involved in long distance continuous exercise such as cycling and marathon running will have as much as half the testosterone levels as a couch potato, and still significantly decreased levels compared to other non-continuous exertive sports such as weightlifting and football where testosterone experiences a boost. With epitestosterone essentially being constant, this would explain the discrepancy of the higher testosterone tolerance limits set for the NFL vs Cycling ratios

I said discretionary not irrational. Sure there are discussions and reasons but it remains discretionary. That's not a pejorative, just a description. .08 blood alcohol content is the same way. There are sound arguments for it but in the end it has no more inherent/objective merit than .079.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 03:21 PM
I said discretionary not irrational. Sure there are discussions and reasons but it remains discretionary. That's not a pejorative, just a description. .08 blood alcohol content is the same way. There are sound arguments for it but in the end it has no more inherent/objective merit than .079.

I understand what you're saying. Appreciate it.:handshake:

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 03:22 PM
I understand what you're saying. Appreciate it.:handshake:

Sorry. I get semantic sometimes.

Nawzer
05-11-2010, 03:24 PM
From what I can remember hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) is produced naturally by human bodies, specially when women are pregnant, hCG is produced to protect the corpus luteum which produces progesterone. Progesterone is critical during pregnancies. Anyway, if an athlete is taking it, it is probably to reverse the cycle of not producing testosterone. If someone is taking anabolic steroids, it reverses the human body's negative feedback cycle and then once that treatment cycle is over, the player or person takes hCG or something like that to reverse the effects of your shrinking testicles. I think in this case Brian Cushing probably took steroids, but that it was probably before he got drafted into the NFL. He took this masking agent to reverse the effects of whatever he was taking. Literally to grow his balls back to their normal size.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 03:28 PM
From what I can remember hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) is produced naturally by human bodies, specially when women are pregnant, hCG is produced to protect the corpus luteum which produces progesterone. Progesterone is critical during pregnancies. Anyway, if an athlete is taking it, it is probably to reverse the cycle of not producing testosterone. If someone is taking anabolic steroids, it reverses the human body's negative feedback cycle and then once that treatment cycle is over, the player or person takes hCG or something like that to reverse the effects of your shrinking testicles. I think in this case Brian Cushing probably took steroids, but that it was probably before he got drafted into the NFL. He took this masking agent to reverse the effects of whatever he was taking. Literally to grow his balls back to their normal size.

You certainly have a way with words.:spit:

It also stimulates the testis cells to produce more testosterone, and it tries to help to reverse gynecomastia ("man boobs") if present.

Kaiser Toro
05-11-2010, 03:30 PM
http://www.untoldentertainment.com/blog/img/2010_03_22/idiocracy.jpg

Big Lou
05-11-2010, 03:37 PM
Let me start by saying that Cush has had this cloud following him a long time. I will also say that I'm completely biased because I don't want to lose hime for four games especially the four teams we play.

Why I don't want to lose to these teams:
Indy: It's obvious
Dallas: I hate Dallas fans in general, because about 75% do nothing but talk sh*t
Washington: Because it's that whole mentor/apprentice thing with Kubes and Shanny Sr., plos the Skins sucked last year and who want to lose to them
Oakland: I will cry if we lose to the Raiders.....


So admitting my bias leads me to my one in a million arguement. I'm not saying Cush didn't use PED's, but if Adam Schefter's reports are accurate about slightly elevated levels then there is a chance that Cush is getting screwed.

I'm sure these tests in the NFL are highly accurate, but we don't have a 100% understaning of the human body. It's like finger prints, yeh they are accurate, but not absolute. This means it's not likely that Cush is innocent, but have you ever been accused of something you didn't do, and were frustrated because you couldn't prove other wise. Impropable, but only Cush and Good Lord know the truth.

I guess my issue is slightly elevated issues, if that report is true. What if Cush just has a slightly different body chemistry.

However if he didn't rub one out before the test, then it's very likely and hopefully likely that Cush was using something after quitting Roids. If that is the case then hopefully that means he played like a Bad Ass clean for the most part, and hopefully his body can maintain the mass since he's in his 20's now. I know I couldn't get past 160 lbs until I got in to my 20's, now I'm a consistant 225.

Sosrry for the rambling, but I had'nt put my two cents in yet and there has been a lot to come out since Friday, when I heard about this and cried for 2 straight hours.

drewmar74
05-11-2010, 03:38 PM
Sosrry for the rambling, but I had'nt put my two cents in yet and there has been a lot to come out since Friday, when I heard about this and cried for 2 straight hours.

:backsout:

Austrian
05-11-2010, 03:40 PM
You certainly have a way with words.:spit:

It also stimulates the testis cells to produce more testosterone, and it tries to help to reverse gynecomastia ("man boobs") if present.

I'd assume it stimulates the Leydig cells, right?

Nawzer
05-11-2010, 03:42 PM
You certainly have a way with words.:spit:

It also stimulates the testis cells to produce more testosterone, and it tries to help to reverse gynecomastia ("man boobs") if present.

Didn't look like Cushing had that problem but who knows...I just had this horrible image of Cushing in a Victoria's Secret bra. I think I'm going to go visit the babe thread for a while.

hot pickle
05-11-2010, 03:50 PM
man im so tired of this already.... nfl.com is just loving this story and thats all they have been talking about!!!!

HEY NFL.COM... PAC MAN JONES IS BACK IN THE LEAQUE just thought i'd let you know since your so busy talking about cush!!!!

Hardcore Texan
05-11-2010, 03:55 PM
I can't speak for exact numbers, but the differences of acceptable ratios between the NFL and Cycling entities have a solid basis. Studies have shown that athletes that are lean and thin and involved in long distance continuous exercise such as cycling and marathon running will have as much as half the testosterone levels as a couch potato, and still significantly decreased levels compared to other non-continuous exertive sports such as weightlifting and football where testosterone experiences a boost. With epitestosterone essentially being constant, this would explain the discrepancy of the higher testosterone tolerance limits set for the NFL vs Cycling ratios

I knew it would pay off one day.

mariowillshine15
05-11-2010, 04:11 PM
On ESPN they said he tested positive for HCG a non-steroidal and non-PED drug.

According to the doctor on ESPN it's a hormone naturally produced in the body. He said that its usually taken after a cycle of steroids.

But Mark Schlereth said that you could also use it to after marijuana use or other reasons.

So im not too sure what to make of this so if anybody else saw it feel free to chime in.

GP
05-11-2010, 04:15 PM
11. Media/fans discuss what this 'drug' is for and it's effects and how Cushing apparently was "barely" over the limit they allow you to have. It's also reported that this 'can' be used at the end of a steroid cycle - causing some fans to requestion things. Still, apparently was tested throughout the season and never failed another test for any reason.

That's where I am at, on a personal level (since, obviously, MY feelings are so important. LOL.)

I re-question several things:

1. Why is he over the limit: Masking or weight loss/miscellaneous substances?

2. How MUCH is he over the limit, and if it is marginal...then how often can someone be over the limit in a marginal manner?

3. IF he was on a substance that made his cHG levels out of whack, why is he playing with fire? Assuming he WAS, indeed, warned as has been alleged.

That's my big three re-questions. I don't see how he gained any more ground after all of what has transpired thus far. He's passed tests? OK, but he failed THIS one. Was it a slip-up? I dunno. But questions, in my mind, remain.

infantrycak
05-11-2010, 04:15 PM
I guess my issue is slightly elevated issues, if that report is true. What if Cush just has a slightly different body chemistry.

Meant to say something about this. I've always wondered about these ratios and levels and whether they are set based on ordinary people or athletes or the particular type of athletes. But there are athletes that are way off the norms. Miguel Indurain had a resting heart rate of 19 bpm. As a teenager Lance Armstrong was measured to not produce ordinary levels of lactic acid. It almost seems like they should test everyone when they join a team to establish an individual baseline and then set the standard off % change.

As an aside - Mark Schlereth just said on the medical marijuana/cancer site he looked at they listed false hcg positives were a risk from smoking.

Grid
05-11-2010, 04:19 PM
Meant to say something about this. I've always wondered about these ratios and levels and whether they are set based on ordinary people or athletes or the particular type of athletes. But there are athletes that are way off the norms. Miguel Indurain had a resting heart rate of 19 bpm. As a teenager Lance Armstrong was measured to not produce ordinary levels of lactic acid. It almost seems like they should test everyone when they join a team to establish an individual baseline and then set the standard off % change.

As an aside - Mark Schlereth just said on the medical marijuana/cancer site he looked at they listed false hcg positives were a risk from smoking.

I really didnt wanna go here.. but didnt it also say that it can give false readings if the person just ejaculated?

:hobie:

GP
05-11-2010, 04:19 PM
As an aside - Mark Schlereth just said on the medical marijuana/cancer site he looked at they listed false hcg positives were a risk from smoking.

Hmmmm........

Surely he never had access to weed in Southern California all those years? :kitten:

Man, this is nuts. Do other fans on other boards go this crazy after something like this? I can't stay of this board for long, or I miss so much.

GP
05-11-2010, 04:20 PM
I really didnt wanna go here.. but didnt it also say that it can give false readings if the person just ejaculated?

:hobie:

Smoking a joint AND ejaculation = hCG off-the-charts

"It's science." (Ron Burgundy in "Anchorman")

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 04:20 PM
As an aside - Mark Schlereth just said on the medical marijuana/cancer site he looked at they listed false hcg positives were a risk from smoking.

This is what I said two pages ago:

"As far as I know, many of these natural methods of raising test levels are banned by fiat because of the ratio deal. Since hCG is also a naturally produced compound, isn't it possible, if not likely, that a slightly elevated level could be caused by some combination of herbal/chemical supplements?"

b0ng
05-11-2010, 04:47 PM
But Mark Schlereth said that you could also use it to after marijuana use or other reasons.

So im not too sure what to make of this so if anybody else saw it feel free to chime in.

I'm going to go ahead and say the Sclereth is talking out of his bum here. Nobody I've ever read has ever talked about using hormones (hCG is hormones right? It's seminal I know that, and it helps ball production) to successfully mask a pee test ever (even in an environment where such things would not be tested for in the first place). Most masking agents are tested for now as well as samples coming back abnormal are usually flagged for further testing and analysis which is usually bad for masking agents.

Besides, with the climate of the sports world these days, I'd think a player like Cushing wouldn't be under such direct scrutiny if his performance enhancing drug was weed. The NFL treats it the same, but the media and public for certain do not.

EDIT: As an aside, a masking agent is not doing it's job if it's on the banned list and showing up in pee tests.

Jacking off in the cup Yes, but I'm pretty sure the guy you handed the sample to would politely ask for a less semen-filled sample and hand you a new cup.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 04:49 PM
Let me start by saying that Cush has had this cloud following him a long time. I will also say that I'm completely biased because I don't want to lose hime for four games especially the four teams we play.

Why I don't want to lose to these teams:
Indy: It's obvious
Dallas: I hate Dallas fans in general, because about 75% do nothing but talk sh*t
Washington: Because it's that whole mentor/apprentice thing with Kubes and Shanny Sr., plos the Skins sucked last year and who want to lose to them
Oakland: I will cry if we lose to the Raiders.....


So admitting my bias leads me to my one in a million arguement. I'm not saying Cush didn't use PED's, but if Adam Schefter's reports are accurate about slightly elevated levels then there is a chance that Cush is getting screwed.

I'm sure these tests in the NFL are highly accurate, but we don't have a 100% understaning of the human body. It's like finger prints, yeh they are accurate, but not absolute. This means it's not likely that Cush is innocent, but have you ever been accused of something you didn't do, and were frustrated because you couldn't prove other wise. Impropable, but only Cush and Good Lord know the truth.

I guess my issue is slightly elevated issues, if that report is true. What if Cush just has a slightly different body chemistry.

However if he didn't rub one out before the test, then it's very likely and hopefully likely that Cush was using something after quitting Roids. If that is the case then hopefully that means he played like a Bad Ass clean for the most part, and hopefully his body can maintain the mass since he's in his 20's now. I know I couldn't get past 160 lbs until I got in to my 20's, now I'm a consistant 225.

Sosrry for the rambling, but I had'nt put my two cents in yet and there has been a lot to come out since Friday, when I heard about this and cried for 2 straight hours.

This seems to be a stumbling block or leaves a significant question mark with many posters. However, it really shouldn't. I'll try to explain why.

Males share the same HCG normals as women that are not pregnant, i.e., 0-5 mIU/ml. This is blood levels. Urine levels, if anything, are normally lower than blood levels. The typical HCG blood test can detect down to 5 mIU/ml. The best HGC urine test can only detect down to as low as 20 mIU/ml. There is already a very significant "buffer" built into the limitations of the urine test to clock a "positive." And just as in women, who we warn when checking for pregnancy, get a first morning's urine (which is the most concentrated) and don't drink anything before the test, or the urine sample will be so diluted as to not show lowly elevated HCG levels consistent with early pregnancy. You should see I'm not too impressed with the statement that Cushing's test came just back "a little bit positive." Under any "normal" circumstances, the HCG urine test should have come back entirely "negative"............unless, of course, he can prove that he is pregnant.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 04:52 PM
I'd assume it stimulates the Leydig cells, right?


Exactly.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 05:08 PM
Another thing that keeps getting me is that apparently Cushing and the Trainer were warned that this substance could trigger something on a test. Then Cushing is now upset after the failed appeal process because he thought he had convincing evidence that would make the league rescind the suspension.

So maybe (puts on rationalizing glass half full cap), just maybe Cushing new whatever 'it' was he was taking, possibly for his injury rehab might contain this substance hCG that might or might not show up on a test. He knows he's going to get tested, he knows he's innocent and hasn't taken Steroids/PEDs and he and the Trainer feel like they have indisputable evidence to show (i) what it was he was taking (ii) why he was taking it (iii) and that if it resulted in a failed test why it was okay that it was taken and how it wasn't taken for the reason its on the banned substance list "masking agent".

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 05:09 PM
What if a player does take a Steroid and then hCG to hide it...and fails a test administered days after. Would this test show any sign of the Steroid/PED? Even if he took this hCG stuff, would it completely wipe away any evidence of the Steroid from days earlier???

I ask because what if he were to have a Test #1: a completely clean test that passes and shows no signs of anythin bad. Then the next week has another test, Test #2. This time it shows hCG levels are above the acceptable amount. Can that drug completely mask any effects of a Steroid that soon? or does it take time? Or is it instant? In other words, how does it work? how does it hide/mask the use of other things?

markn
05-11-2010, 05:44 PM
What if a player does take a Steroid and then hCG to hide it...and fails a test administered days after. Would this test show any sign of the Steroid/PED? Even if he took this hCG stuff, would it completely wipe away any evidence of the Steroid from days earlier???

I ask because what if he were to have a Test #1: a completely clean test that passes and shows no signs of anythin bad. Then the next week has another test, Test #2. This time it shows hCG levels are above the acceptable amount. Can that drug completely mask any effects of a Steroid that soon? or does it take time? Or is it instant? In other words, how does it work? how does it hide/mask the use of other things?

it doesn't mask anything. It stops your balls from shrinking due to steroids.

Nawzer
05-11-2010, 05:46 PM
What if a player does take a Steroid and then hCG to hide it...and fails a test administered days after. Would this test show any sign of the Steroid/PED? Even if he took this hCG stuff, would it completely wipe away any evidence of the Steroid from days earlier???

I ask because what if he were to have a Test #1: a completely clean test that passes and shows no signs of anythin bad. Then the next week has another test, Test #2. This time it shows hCG levels are above the acceptable amount. Can that drug completely mask any effects of a Steroid that soon? or does it take time? Or is it instant? In other words, how does it work? how does it hide/mask the use of other things?

I will try and answer this. From my understanding it takes 2 to 3 weeks for hCG to be completely effective. So, you can't expect your testicles to return to their normal size after using it for one or two days. You have to understand that taking anabolic steroids changes the biochemistry of your body and the regular chemical pathways need to time to reestablish themselves. Therefore, if Cushing was tested a day or two after he started taking hCG he would have failed his test. His body would still show the presence of steroids or whatever he took.

I think in Brian's case the NFL did test him probably mulitple times or they had multiple samples. And the lab that performed the testing probably did take into account all these variables. Also, once you take hCG there is the issue of your body not producing enough natural testosterone. We don't know what the dosage amount was in Cushing's case, but let's assume it was pretty high dosage. Because hCG essentially replaces your body's natural leutinizing hormone (LH), he might have had to take something like Nolva to help his body produce testosterone. I don't know what else they had him tested for, but I would not be surprised if did test positive for other things. Now, you don't need to necessarily take hCG if you were anabolic steroids for a short period of time like 4 or 5 weeks. But if Cushing did take large doses for long periods of time he had to take hCG to return his body to normality. And if he did take a large amount of anabolic steroids his hCG dosage might have been pretty high during testing.

In my opinion, I think Cushing did take anabolic steroids but it was probably before he played a regular season game. I think the tests were done in September and I would not be surprised if he took them during the summer months and started taking hCG before the season started. But this is all speculation in my part. I think the NFL was right because it seems like they took their time reaching to this conclusion.

eric138
05-11-2010, 06:05 PM
steroid users are not running HCG after their cycles anymore. that is old school thought that it would establish natural testosterone levels faster, when it actually does the opposite shutting down your natural testosterone.. but they are using HCG during the cycle to keep the testicles running properly because when they are on steroids the drugs stop testosterone production which pretty much kills all other functions of the testicles.. so the use of HCG brings the testicles back to life while on steroids and it also makes post cycle recovery a lot easier to deal with.. if Cushing was post cycle he would have been busted for clomid and/or tamoxifen.

it is possible he could have been using the HCG solo for the new fad HCG diet but that is such a load of crap that I really doubt a professional would buy into that garbage.

There is no other reason to use hcg besides as a diet supp and to get your testicles working while synthetics are running through your veins.. now he could have naturally elavated hcg levels due to many different factors.

Kaiser Toro
05-11-2010, 07:04 PM
DeMaurice Smith on PEDs

NFLPA chief DeMaurice Smith issued a strong statement about performance-enhancing drugs on Tuesday in the wake of the suspension handed down to Texans LB Brian Cushing.

Smith said the NFLPA is committed to keeping the game free from steroids and other performance-altering substances and chastised players who break the league's policy on such substances as cheaters.

Smith said:

"Sport is at its best when fans can witness great achievements under the rules of fair play. Players who break those rules cheat the game, cheat the fans and cheat themselves. The players want a clean game as well as a clean process for enforcing those rules. We intend to address both in the collective bargaining process to make the system better."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/05/nflpa-chief-demaurice-smith-steroids-users-cheat-the-game-cheat-the-fans-and-cheat-themselves/1

devo-x
05-11-2010, 07:10 PM
From one of the posters on the main HoustonTexans forum:

but according to the guys at sr610, the rules haven't changed since 2007. So why would it not be a fail last year but now it is a fail if the rules haven't changed? I believe in rules...and I think everyone should follow them...including the "authorities" and the preponderance of information available at this points suggests the NFL is lacking in its consistency or accountability in this situation. There's even the rumor that the doctors who made the report on the elevated levels were NOT IN AGREEMENT on whether the levels were even elevated

Double Barrel
05-11-2010, 07:33 PM
Personally, I haven't been following the latest weight-loss fads.

I was curious about this hCG as diet fad, so I googled it. Turns out this stuff is sold on Amazon.

Homeopathic HCG Weight Loss Formula + Amino Acid and Vitamins B6 & B12 (http://www.amazon.com/Homeopathic-Weight-Formula-Amino-Vitamins/dp/B002ITPXNK)

Homeopathic hCG - Oral hCG Drops - Weight Loss Diet (http://www.amazon.com/Homeopathic-hCG-Oral-Drops-Weight/dp/B002SZLR70)

Not that this makes it acceptable, but I just found it interesting. Does it work? Might be a lot easier than P90X! :D

Bob McNair seems confused:

Texans owner: More info needed on suspensions

Houston Texans owner Robert McNair says he'd like more information to be provided to the team when a player has a league suspension pending.
McNair said Monday he knew during the 2009 season that linebacker Brian Cushing had ``an issue'' with the NFL. McNair was given no details by the league of what it concerned.

McNair criticized the suspension and appeal process.

``The club is left completely out of the loop on that,'' McNair said. ``We're not even notified, it's the league and the player and the players' union. All we know is what's been announced at this point in time.''

Cushing is suspended without pay for the first four games of the 2010 season, even though he said he took the substance in September, the first month of the 2009 schedule. He appealed the ban and a final decision was handed down last week.

n to be in because we're the guy that's got the investment in the player. The league doesn't have any money invested in the player, the union doesn't have any money invested in the player, and yet they get the information and we don't.

``So it's a sensitive area because it is sort of like medical information and there's confidentiality and this sort of thing. But I think it's something that needs to be addressed in the next collective bargaining agreement.''

``Brian, what he has said, is he's been taking the same supplements ... for the last 10 or 15 years and he's been checked umpteen times and it hadn't shown up to be any kind of problem,'' McNair said. ``So what happened, I don't know. He doesn't know at this point in time.

``The fact (is) that he didn't think he would get the suspension, but that's the way it is at this point in time and we accept it and we need to move on.''

Source (http://www.thespread.com/ap-news-nfl-100/texans-owner-more-info-needed-on-suspensions.html)
Bob is protecting his boy! I like it! :cowboy1:

eriadoc
05-11-2010, 07:42 PM
This seems to be a stumbling block or leaves a significant question mark with many posters. However, it really shouldn't. I'll try to explain why.

Males share the same HCG normals as women that are not pregnant, i.e., 0-5 mIU/ml. This is blood levels. Urine levels, if anything, are normally lower than blood levels. The typical HCG blood test can detect down to 5 mIU/ml. The best HGC urine test can only detect down to as low as 20 mIU/ml. There is already a very significant "buffer" built into the limitations of the urine test to clock a "positive." And just as in women, who we warn when checking for pregnancy, get a first morning's urine (which is the most concentrated) and don't drink anything before the test, or the urine sample will be so diluted as to not show lowly elevated HCG levels consistent with early pregnancy. You should see I'm not too impressed with the statement that Cushing's test came just back "a little bit positive." Under any "normal" circumstances, the HCG urine test should have come back entirely "negative"............unless, of course, he can prove that he is pregnant.

So in your opinion, do you think Cushing cheated?

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 07:43 PM
From one of the posters on the main HoustonTexans forum:

Ask ESPN about rumors and misinformation and "unnamed sources."

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 08:04 PM
So in your opinion, do you think Cushing cheated?

If a player takes steroids (in the sense that we're discussing), yes I think he's cheating.

But let's be clear: Just because a player takes something on the "banned substance list", doesn't mean he's necessarily cheating. Breaking the rules? yes. Cheating? Maybe not.

Example: A substance is on the list solely because it can be used to mask the use of a steroid. The substance does not enhance performance in any way, shape or form. (1) Player took this substance to mask the steroids he had used. Yes player cheated and broke the rules. (2) Player took the substance however had not used steroids or any other PED. No, the player did not cheat but yes he broke the rules.

In either case, the rules were broken and should be disciplined unless there are mitigating circumstances. In one scenario I think a player cheated, in another I don't think the player cheated.

If the Ref blows his whistle and throws a flag because the clock ran out and Schaub didn't snap the ball in time, I think Schaub broke the rules and we should get a penalty but I wouldn't say Schaub cheated. Same application in my mind.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 08:35 PM
So in your opinion, do you think Cushing cheated?



I find it very difficult to put together a case where he didn't know what he was doing rather than not expecting his activities to be found out.

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 08:43 PM
Did Cushing cheat? The answer to this question isn't completely cut and dry, but it is close.


The NFL has official rules that players are theoretically supposed to abide by. Then there is a set of rules that players actually abide by. The rules might overlap, but they aren't the same.

For example, during games, the OL is not allowed to hold, or do any of that dirty stuff. But we all know holding and dirty stuff happens on every play. Two sets of rules, the ones in the rulebook and the ones the players abide by.

Now noone calls the entire OL cheaters because they get away with holding on every play. It's only cheating when you get caught. If and only if you get a flag thrown on you for holding, you were cheating. That's how the NFL works.

So now we can answer the question about Cushing. Cushing cheated by having elevated levels of hCG, a banned substance, in his urine - but that's it. He did not cheat by taking steroids, or HGH, or speed, or anything else, because he didn't get caught. Cushing cheated and got caught for a miniscule amount of a non-steroidal non-performance enhancing substance. Was he cheating? Yeah. Did he cheat by taking a steroid cycle before that? Nope.

So is he a cheater? Yeah. Everyone that has had a flag thrown on them is a cheater. But think about this - which form of cheating affects the outcome of the game more? Elevated levels of hCG, or holding a defensive player?

One more thought. Players can get suspended for marijuana and all sorts of other things. Are they cheaters? Think about it. They broke the rules of the NFL, therefore they cheated. But having marijuana in your urine has about as much effect on the integrity of the game as having hCG in your urine. Neither influence the play on the field.

What's the point? It's only cheating if you get caught. But not all cheating influences the outcome of the game. Getting caught holding and getting caught taking steroids (like Merriman did) both influence the outcome of the game. The others, not so much.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 08:46 PM
If a player takes steroids (in the sense that we're discussing), yes I think he's cheating.

But let's be clear: Just because a player takes something on the "banned substance list", doesn't mean he's necessarily cheating. Breaking the rules? yes. Cheating? Maybe not.

Example: A substance is on the list solely because it can be used to mask the use of a steroid. The substance does not enhance performance in any way, shape or form. (1) Player took this substance to mask the steroids he had used. Yes player cheated and broke the rules. (2) Player took the substance however had not used steroids or any other PED. No, the player did not cheat but yes he broke the rules.

In either case, the rules were broken and should be disciplined unless there are mitigating circumstances. In one scenario I think a player cheated, in another I don't think the player cheated.

If the Ref blows his whistle and throws a flag because the clock ran out and Schaub didn't snap the ball in time, I think Schaub broke the rules and we should get a penalty but I wouldn't say Schaub cheated. Same application in my mind.


This is not technichally true. If he took it alone without cycling, it would increase his testosterone levels above levels he would normally carry. If he was cycling off of steroids, it is likely that his testosterone levels would have been affected adversely for a period of time without the addition of HCG. In each case, it would have to be considered that without the HCG, performance level would be lower.........and with it, ENHANCED.

Grid
05-11-2010, 08:47 PM
Wait a second. so hCG does not mask steroids in the test?

The only reason it is on the banned substance test is because it is commonly taken by juicers after a steroid cycle to restore lost testosterone?

So the NFL has this on its banned substance list not because it is a performance enhancing drug...and not because it masks a performance enhancing drug... but because one of its common uses is AFTER a performance enhancing drug has been taken?


Are you kidding me? Does no one else see how freakin lame this is? This is like them banning muscle growth. if you bulk up it doesnt mean you took steroids, and if you bulked up it certainly wouldnt cause you to fail a PED test.. but if the league can eyeball you and see that you bulked up, they ban you because it is a common effect from steroid use.

It seems to me that if this information on hCG is correct.. then the only possible reason that it is on the banned substance list is because the league knows that they cant test a person through the offseason.. so their only defense is to look for the hCG that can commonly be used after a steroid cycle. Well.. that is just injustice waiting to happen.. they need to figure out a better way to test their players, so that when a person gets in trouble its for steroid use or for a masking agent.. not for some substance that can be found in many supplements but is also commonly used after a cycle.

Grid
05-11-2010, 08:50 PM
This is not technichally true. If he took it alone without cycling, it would increase his testosterone levels above levels he would normally carry. If he was cycling off of steroids, it is likely that his testosterone levels would have been affected adversely for a period of time without the addition of HCG. In each case, it would have to be considered that without the HCG, performance level would be lower.........and with it, ENHANCED.

Ahhh ok.. well my next question then would be "does hCG give the player benefits on the same level as steroid use, and if so..does it need to be a banned substance or is it simple another supplement like the hundreds of others that NFL players take every day?"

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 08:53 PM
Ahhh ok.. well my next question then would be "does hCG give the player benefits on the same level as steroid use, and if so..does it need to be a banned substance or is it simple another supplement like the hundreds of others that NFL players take every day?"

From what I know of hCG, it doesn't do enough of anything to ever be taken alone (unless for that fat loss thing). I've never in my life heard of someone using hCG to get stronger or bigger, and if noone does it, it's probably because it doesn't work.

Cjeremy635
05-11-2010, 09:06 PM
Frankly, I don't really care what he does to his body. I'm not sure if he took juice or not, doesn't matter to me. I just think the team is gonna miss him a lot during the first month of the season, especially when we really need to begin starting the seasons off with a bang. If he's gonna take roids, and continue to play in the NFL, I think he should buy him a house in another country for the off season. Does the NFL do sampling on you if you're out of the country? I'm just saying.....he could do a 3-4 month cycle, get cleaned up, then move back to the states in time for OTAs ans training camp to begin.....with a clean system. I guess I'm not really frowning on him if he did do it because I don't think that steroids are really that bad, if done correctly and you run an acceptable PCT. Just my 2 cents.

beerlover
05-11-2010, 09:12 PM
simply stated: the punishment does not fit the crime.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 09:20 PM
Ahhh ok.. well my next question then would be "does hCG give the player benefits on the same level as steroid use, and if so..does it need to be a banned substance or is it simple another supplement like the hundreds of others that NFL players take every day?"

It is on the "NFL Banned Substance List" and considered a PED for the reasons I layed out. And NO, given alone, it does not offer the same level of "benefits" as steroids. However, to also address Wagonhead's comments. HCG has not been usually found to be effective as a fad fat removal diet, because the ORAL (as opposed to injectable) supplements used have never been shown to be absorbed to any significant extent. HCG alone can elevate a middle of the road testosterone level to significantly elevated level. and thus enhance performance........but not anywhere as high as steroids can potentially affect. And taking it for long periods of time can also shut down the body's own testosterone production as well as produce gynecomastia (man boobs). (Another reason that leads to the conclusion of his use to cycle off of steroids).

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 09:28 PM
We've all done things that we are not so proud of at one point or another. But I'm certainly glad that I have not tried to make it through life with the philosphy of "It's only cheating when you get caught."

Texan_Bill
05-11-2010, 09:34 PM
We've all done things that we are not so proud of at one point or another. But I'm certainly glad that I have not tried to make it through life with the philosphy of "It's only cheating when you get caught."

:user: You rang?

Doc Jean, I didn't live my life by the motto "It's only cheating when you get caught", I've lived my life by the motto "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'".

:D

BigTimeTexanFan
05-11-2010, 09:36 PM
It is on the "NFL Banned Substance List" and considered a PED for the reasons I layed out. And NO, given alone, it does not offer the same level of "benefits" as steroids. However, to also address Wagonhead's comments. HCG has not been usually found to be effective as a fad fat removal diet, because the ORAL (as opposed to injectable) supplements used have never been shown to be absorbed to any significant extent. HCG alone can elevate a middle of the road testosterone level to significantly elevated level. and thus enhance performance........but not anywhere as high as steroids can potentially affect. And taking it for long periods of time can also shut down the body's own testosterone production as well as produce gynecomastia (man boobs). (Another reason that leads to the conclusion of his use to cycle off of steroids).

For those who don't know:http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2e/20080416102749!Gynecomastia_001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gynecomastia_001.jpg&usg=__mn7gxhCZUYZmnmkx0Mxf6Kf8aXI=&h=2304&w=3072&sz=976&hl=en&start=68&sig2=K2ksovORV9A1qSXulzBKHQ&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=FwH4cFE5rE8TBM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgynecomastia%26start%3D63%26um%3D1%26 hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1W1ADBR_en%2 6ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=YAXqS8OFAoH48Aagg53gDg

The Pencil Neck
05-11-2010, 09:39 PM
We've all done things that we are not so proud of at one point or another. But I'm certainly glad that I have not tried to make it through life with the philosphy of "It's only cheating when you get caught."

This is/was a philosophy that always bothered me. And it really bothered me because it was my Dad's philosophy on life and my dad was a Sheriff's Deputy and that seemed wrong to me.

My philosophy has always been that if you don't want someone to find out you did it, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Not always, but usually. If you're going to meet some woman after work and you don't want your wife to find out about it because she's going to be ticked off about it and suspect you of cheating, then you shouldn't do it. If you're going to take some drugs in the offseason when no one will ever find out about it and it's going to make you perform better, BUT you don't want word of it to get out to the general public, then you shouldn't do it.

BUT. I'm not an elite athlete. It's a different culture and it has to be. Like I said in another post, competitive athletes are (and should be) looking for competitive edges and they're going to want to keep those competitive edges secret so that they can out perform the people they're competing against. And if you tell one of these athletes, you may be tested here and you may be tested there but you won't be tested in between, they're probably going to take that as tacit approval to do something between those two points as long as they can cover up the evidence before the test.

I just think that's what it takes to be that level of athlete. It's like that survey they did of olympic athletes about if they would take a drug that would cut 10 years off the end of their lives but would guarantee a medal and all of the athletes said they'd take the medal and lose the years. It's a different mindset than most people have.

If they didn't have that mindset, then we'd still have football played by used car salesmen in their off hours like we did 70 years ago.

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 09:49 PM
Cushing cheated and got caught for a miniscule amount of a non-steroidal non-performance enhancing substance. Was he cheating? Yeah. Did he cheat by taking a steroid cycle before that? Nope.

This is where I'm going with my feelings. I dont' think that's cheating, but it definitely is breaking the rules.

This is not technichally true. If he took it alone without cycling, it would increase his testosterone levels above levels he would normally carry. If he was cycling off of steroids, it is likely that his testosterone levels would have been affected adversely for a period of time without the addition of HCG. In each case, it would have to be considered that without the HCG, performance level would be lower.........and with it, ENHANCED.
I must first say the post I originally wrote about cheating/breaking rules was intended to be more generic and not specifically addressing the exact drug Cushing used.

With that said, Now here you raise a really good point. And I'm far from knowing enough about this type of stuff to really have an educated opinion. Hell I don't even have a full grasp of testosterone! But is the added testosterone by this drug that big of a benifit? I bring this up with other "chemicals" in mind. And this could start a whole other debate. Gatorade, Power Bars, Protein, Energy Drinks, Vitamin C, Other Vitamins, Other "legal" supplements that theoretically make you healthier and a better athlete and.... "enhance your performance". Where do we draw the line of "well yea it makes you a little better just as a lot of things do" and "this is full blown making you a bionic killing machine". I hope you get my point? And I really am asking... in regards to this hCG and testosterone boost. Is that boost considered a significant difference? Or is it fairly marginal as with taking vitamins to stay healthy.... or even medicines for diabetics that may have off-whack levels of glucose?

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 09:53 PM
We've all done things that we are not so proud of at one point or another. But I'm certainly glad that I have not tried to make it through life with the philosphy of "It's only cheating when you get caught."
I never said that I lived my life by that philosophy, or even that NFL players live by that philosophy. But it's tough to deny that that is the philosophy of NFL football players in their capacity as NFL football players. That's the nature of the game as it has been passed down through the years. It's not any one of their faults, nor is there anything any of them can do about it.

I do know two things though. First of all, if you aren't breaking the official rules off the field, you aren't going to make it, and neither is your team. A team with 100% clean players will go 0-16. No doubt in my mind about that. Secondly, if you're not breaking the official rules on the field, your team won't make it either. Tell your linemen that under no circumstances should they hold, or DBs sneak a hand onto the receiver, or trip up the RB from the bottom of the pile, or whatever else. Maybe you won't go 0-16, but you won't be winning many games. In a game where wins and losses means millions of dollars, that's just how things go. That's the nature of the beast. And that's where that cheating philosophy comes from, even if it's not the kind of philosophy you would want to model your life on.

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 10:11 PM
This is where I'm going with my feelings. I dont' think that's cheating, but it definitely is breaking the rules.


I must first say the post I originally wrote about cheating/breaking rules was intended to be more generic and not specifically addressing the exact drug Cushing used.

With that said, Now here you raise a really good point. And I'm far from knowing enough about this type of stuff to really have an educated opinion. Hell I don't even have a full grasp of testosterone! But is the added testosterone by this drug that big of a benifit? I bring this up with other "chemicals" in mind. And this could start a whole other debate. Gatorade, Power Bars, Protein, Energy Drinks, Vitamin C, Other Vitamins, Other "legal" supplements that theoretically make you healthier and a better athlete and.... "enhance your performance". Where do we draw the line of "well yea it makes you a little better just as a lot of things do" and "this is full blown making you a bionic killing machine". I hope you get my point? And I really am asking... in regards to this hCG and testosterone boost. Is that boost considered a significant difference? Or is it fairly marginal as with taking vitamins to stay healthy.... or even medicines for diabetics that may have off-whack levels of glucose?


No, it won't make you a bionic killing machine, but it will give you enough boost in most cases to give you an edge. It's like the stupid practice that some people follow of taking extra thyroid when they have a mid normal level and want to boost it to the high boundary to gain more pep and energy and lose weight due an increase of metabolism. It is, indeed, a moderate boost in all categories........but at the risk of knocking out a heart valve (since introducing exogenous forms of the same substance that comes from your own body's natural production virtually always has unique additional risks).

CloakNNNdagger
05-11-2010, 10:17 PM
I never said that I lived my life by that philosophy, or even that NFL players live by that philosophy. But it's tough to deny that that is the philosophy of NFL football players in their capacity as NFL football players. That's the nature of the game as it has been passed down through the years. It's not any one of their faults, nor is there anything any of them can do about it.

I do know two things though. First of all, if you aren't breaking the official rules off the field, you aren't going to make it, and neither is your team. A team with 100% clean players will go 0-16. No doubt in my mind about that. Secondly, if you're not breaking the official rules on the field, your team won't make it either. Tell your linemen that under no circumstances should they hold, or DBs sneak a hand onto the receiver, or trip up the RB from the bottom of the pile, or whatever else. Maybe you won't go 0-16, but you won't be winning many games. In a game where wins and losses means millions of dollars, that's just how things go. That's the nature of the beast. And that's where that cheating philosophy comes from, even if it's not the kind of philosophy you would want to model your life on.


Would you want to be looking up at me with knife in hand while you're on the operating table..........knowing that I cheated my way through my training?

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 10:22 PM
Would you want to be looking up at me with knife in hand while you're on the operating table..........knowing that I cheated my way through my training?
No, I sure as heck wouldn't, but I probably wouldn't have a better chance with anyone else. But like I said I don't make the rules... and I'd be willing to bet more than a few college kids cheated their way into med school, or cheated while in med school to finish higher in their class. At the same time, I think the medical profession is one in which the only way to truly be good at what you do is to be good at what you do. I mean you could get ahead business-wise by being savvy and sneaky, but cheating won't help you be the best surgeon like Dr. Shepard is !!!!

It makes no difference to me. I'm on my way into a profession where cheating is basically impossible and wouldn't make a difference anyway. So luckily I don't have to worry about this kind of thing!

Kulluminatii
05-11-2010, 10:35 PM
For those who don't know:http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2e/20080416102749!Gynecomastia_001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gynecomastia_001.jpg&usg=__mn7gxhCZUYZmnmkx0Mxf6Kf8aXI=&h=2304&w=3072&sz=976&hl=en&start=68&sig2=K2ksovORV9A1qSXulzBKHQ&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=FwH4cFE5rE8TBM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgynecomastia%26start%3D63%26um%3D1%26 hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1W1ADBR_en%2 6ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=YAXqS8OFAoH48Aagg53gDg

:brickwall:

Texan_Bill
05-11-2010, 10:39 PM
:brickwall:

Right!! Why did I even click that link? :brickwall:

wagonhed
05-11-2010, 10:54 PM
Right!! Why did I even click that link? :brickwall:
Seriously.
:facepalm:

JB
05-11-2010, 10:55 PM
:brickwall:

Right!! Why did I even click that link? :brickwall:


My eyes! :headhurts:

Man, if anything ever deserved neg rep...

GuerillaBlack
05-11-2010, 10:59 PM
For those who don't know:http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2e/20080416102749!Gynecomastia_001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gynecomastia_001.jpg&usg=__mn7gxhCZUYZmnmkx0Mxf6Kf8aXI=&h=2304&w=3072&sz=976&hl=en&start=68&sig2=K2ksovORV9A1qSXulzBKHQ&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=FwH4cFE5rE8TBM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgynecomastia%26start%3D63%26um%3D1%26 hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1W1ADBR_en%2 6ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=YAXqS8OFAoH48Aagg53gDg

.....

Why?

So close to a negative rep. So close.

Texan_Bill
05-11-2010, 11:01 PM
My eyes! :headhurts:

Man, if anything ever deserved neg rep...

I'm fixin to go to bed, but I have to admit......... I have a sense of being a little nauseous.... Dude, that was gross, disgusting and if I ever see something like that, the rest of my life........

Hell, that'd be too soon.

Texan_Bill
05-11-2010, 11:02 PM
.....

Why?

So close to a negative rep. So close.

I hear ya GB... *damn*

Goldensilence
05-11-2010, 11:12 PM
Son of a ***** that's twice today I clicked on a link here I shouldn't have.

That's just all sorts of wrong.

AnthonyE
05-11-2010, 11:12 PM
:brickwall:

I don't know... I was kind of aroused.

:evil:

JB
05-11-2010, 11:20 PM
I don't know... I was kind of aroused.

:evil:

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx307/TexanJB/smileys/puke2.gif?t=1273634407

Ole Miss Texan
05-11-2010, 11:49 PM
No, it won't make you a bionic killing machine, but it will give you enough boost in most cases to give you an edge. It's like the stupid practice that some people follow of taking extra thyroid when they have a mid normal level and want to boost it to the high boundary to gain more pep and energy and lose weight due an increase of metabolism. It is, indeed, a moderate boost in all categories........but at the risk of knocking out a heart valve (since introducing exogenous forms of the same substance that comes from your own body's natural production virtually always has unique additional risks).

Starting to sound like it enhances performance... :cutthroat: lol

I guess if a player's levels were "naturally below normal" then taking this is probably acceptable? Then of course they should probabaly have a Doctor's note and have permission for the League. Now obviously if the player's level are below normal due to the side effects of takin' da juice - then that's a diff. story.

Please say it ain't so Cush. :cry2:

eriadoc
05-12-2010, 12:41 AM
If a player takes steroids (in the sense that we're discussing), yes I think he's cheating.

But let's be clear: Just because a player takes something on the "banned substance list", doesn't mean he's necessarily cheating. Breaking the rules? yes. Cheating? Maybe not.

Example: A substance is on the list solely because it can be used to mask the use of a steroid. The substance does not enhance performance in any way, shape or form. (1) Player took this substance to mask the steroids he had used. Yes player cheated and broke the rules. (2) Player took the substance however had not used steroids or any other PED. No, the player did not cheat but yes he broke the rules.

In either case, the rules were broken and should be disciplined unless there are mitigating circumstances. In one scenario I think a player cheated, in another I don't think the player cheated.

If the Ref blows his whistle and throws a flag because the clock ran out and Schaub didn't snap the ball in time, I think Schaub broke the rules and we should get a penalty but I wouldn't say Schaub cheated. Same application in my mind.

I get what you're saying here, but the only reason for #2 in your scenario, given the substance he was caught using, is that he wants to be a Mommy. So I can assume he was either using it for the post-steroid benefits in men, or he wants to be a Mommy.

NitroGSXR
05-12-2010, 12:49 AM
I'm just hoping that Cushing was tugging a Charles Haley in the waiting room.

:fans:

Grid
05-12-2010, 12:53 AM
I get what you're saying here, but the only reason for #2 in your scenario, given the substance he was caught using, is that he wants to be a Mommy. So I can assume he was either using it for the post-steroid benefits in men, or he wants to be a Mommy.

Thats pretty cut and dry. Arent there supplements that have hGC in them? I got that impression from other posters.

There are alot of rumors flying around...things that ive seen in posts but havent seen any support for.

What I know:

1) The failed test was in september

2) The banned substance was hGC

3) He was confident that his excuse for failing the test was adequate and that the "charges" would be dropped.

4) He passed 19 more PED tests throughout the year.

5) This ruling took abnormally long to be decided.

6) hGC is not on the PED banned substance list because it is a performance enhancer, but because it is commonly used after a steroid cycle.


What ive heard but cant confirm:

1) He took a lie detector test about taking steroids and passed it.

2) He and his S&C coach took a supplement with full knowledge that it had a banned substance. This supplement was not a steroid.

3) hGC is a common component in many energy boosting supplements.

4) The hGC levels in the PED test were so low that some doctors disagreed that he failed the test.



So..I dunno. Im not yet prepared to say that he had hGC in his system because of steroids.

eriadoc
05-12-2010, 12:59 AM
Thats pretty cut and dry.

So..I dunno. Im not yet prepared to say that he had hGC in his system because of steroids.

Sometimes things really are just as they seem. These guys have a lot on the line giving them incentive to use steroids. In many ways, I don't blame them. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable saying he took steroids, and therefore cheated. The thing is, I don't really care, except for the fact that he got popped and now hurts the team.

It's naive to think that a significant portion of the NFL is not on steroids, so players really do have to even up the playing field. It's a nasty cycle of escalation. It's also naive to think that Cushing didn't take steroids at some point prior to this hCG test, IMO. I understand people wanting to believe in the guy, but it's getting to the point where you have to really reach to make the argument that he's clean.

Grid
05-12-2010, 01:08 AM
Sometimes things really are just as they seem. These guys have a lot on the line giving them incentive to use steroids. In many ways, I don't blame them. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable saying he took steroids, and therefore cheated. The thing is, I don't really care, except for the fact that he got popped and now hurts the team.

It's naive to think that a significant portion of the NFL is not on steroids, so players really do have to even up the playing field. It's a nasty cycle of escalation. It's also naive to think that Cushing didn't take steroids at some point prior to this hCG test, IMO. I understand people wanting to believe in the guy, but it's getting to the point where you have to really reach to make the argument that he's clean.

See...I disagree. I think that the more information we have gotten, the easier it has become to see that things are not cut and dry, and he may NOT have done anything wrong. Or more specifically..that he did not CHEAT.

If he is simply guilty of taking steroids.. then some things dont add up for me.

He passed steroid tests all through the season. I dont know enough about steroids to say if that means something or not, but my assumption would be to say that he was playing well without any help from steroids.

He was confident that he would not be punished for the failed test.. which is not a common frame of mind for a guilty person. It seems to me that he thought he genuinely had a good reason for the hGC in his system and that the league would agree with him.

Then you look at some of the other issues..like an abnormally long time for the league to make its ruling, which could mean that there was some debate over whether or not the ruling was fair. And some of the unconfirmed things like doctors not agreeing that he had high hGC levels, and the lie detector test.

All of that, in my mind, comes together and makes me LESS confident to make any concrete conclusions about what Cushing did.

I dont buy into the "everyone in the NFL juices" theory... not because I dont think its possible, but because I dont have any evidence to support it and see no reason to support a negative rumor like that.

Texecutioner
05-12-2010, 01:17 AM
Sometimes things really are just as they seem. These guys have a lot on the line giving them incentive to use steroids. In many ways, I don't blame them. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable saying he took steroids, and therefore cheated. The thing is, I don't really care, except for the fact that he got popped and now hurts the team.

It's naive to think that a significant portion of the NFL is not on steroids, so players really do have to even up the playing field. It's a nasty cycle of escalation. It's also naive to think that Cushing didn't take steroids at some point prior to this hCG test, IMO. I understand people wanting to believe in the guy, but it's getting to the point where you have to really reach to make the argument that he's clean.

We don't seem to agree that much on most issues Eriadoc, but you're spot on here and have been on all your posts regarding this. I tried to rep you on this one, but couldn't. Any way, great post.

thunderkyss
05-12-2010, 01:38 AM
The level that he tested positive for was so low that it would not have been considered a "positive" test even a year ago.
From the link above.

Interesting. So they just lowered the standard.

Wish we had the test results so CnD could tell us just how slightly elevated his result was.

And now knowing the substance this is not a case of stupid to take something on the banned list. It isn't banned. It's level is restricted. That is a significant difference.

With the statement you quoted, plus the 2 negative tests after being notified he originally tested positive, plus passing all the random tests, plus the amount of time it has taken for this thing to get to this point....

I'm starting to smell a rat. Can't think of any motive anyone would have... but this is just not shaking out.

thunderkyss
05-12-2010, 02:17 AM
No, it won't make you a bionic killing machine,...

So if I wanted to become a bionic killing machine...

hypothetically...

Could you do that?

:kitten:

The Pencil Neck
05-12-2010, 02:44 AM
So if I wanted to become a bionic killing machine...

hypothetically...

Could you do that?

:kitten:

"Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Thunderkyss will be that man. We can make him better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster."
--- CloakNNNdagger

Malloy
05-12-2010, 04:53 AM
"Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Thunderkyss will be that man. We can make him better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster."
--- CloakNNNdagger

How about we fix him first ? ;)

CloakNNNdagger
05-12-2010, 08:19 AM
It has been previously mentioned that marijuana may give a false positive elevation of HCG. I have even seen this on cancer web sites dealing with HCG based cancers. I searched the medical literature and could find only one older evidence-based study on the subject. The full text identified the involved subjects as chronic users.

Marijuana use does not spuriously elevate serum human chorionic gonadotropin levels. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2990078)
Braunstein GD, Thompson R, Gross S, Soares JR.

Abstract

Marijuana use has been reported to spuriously elevate immunoreactive human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) in the serum of patients with testicular germ cell tumors. To reinvestigate this finding, we measured serum HCG and delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta 9-THC) levels in 16 men known or suspected to be marijuana users. Eight of the serum samples had measurable levels of delta 9-THC, while eight did not. None contained immunoreactive HCG. The addition of delta 9-THC directly to pooled male serum had no effect on the HCG radioimmunoassay. These results indicate that marijuana does not artificially elevate serum HCG concentrations.

Interestingly enough, these cancer sites, supported by studies, admit that cigarette smokers will consistently demonstrate a decrease in HCG, approximately 20%.

It is universally accepted that smoking decreases athletic performance.

Even if one would try to deny the findings of the above cited study, I would not want to try to explain away an increased HCG level caused by marijuana smoking. I would hope and believe that if Cushing is concerned enough about what goes into his body as relates to performance, that he would think twice as an athlete before indulging.

There are still those that believe that marijuana can enhance performance

No legitimate medical research has found anything but the opposite.

Dr. Wadler is a world-reknowned expert on the issue of marijuana and sports performance. You may find his REVIEW ARTICLE (http://espn.go.com/special/s/drugsandsports/mari.html) on the subject presented by ESPN (2007), if nothing else, interesting and informative.

SheTexan
05-12-2010, 08:22 AM
Thats pretty cut and dry. Arent there supplements that have hGC in them? I got that impression from other posters.

There are alot of rumors flying around...things that ive seen in posts but havent seen any support for.

What I know:

1) The failed test was in september

2) The banned substance was hGC

3) He was confident that his excuse for failing the test was adequate and that the "charges" would be dropped.

4) He passed 19 more PED tests throughout the year.

5) This ruling took abnormally long to be decided.

6) hGC is not on the PED banned substance list because it is a performance enhancer, but because it is commonly used after a steroid cycle.


What ive heard but cant confirm:

1) He took a lie detector test about taking steroids and passed it.

2) He and his S&C coach took a supplement with full knowledge that it had a banned substance. This supplement was not a steroid.

3) hGC is a common component in many energy boosting supplements.

4) The hGC levels in the PED test were so low that some doctors disagreed that he failed the test.



So..I dunno. Im not yet prepared to say that he had hGC in his system because of steroids.

Interesting that this came out two weeks after the schedule came out. Just saying.

Runner
05-12-2010, 08:35 AM
Does the Texans "surprise" firing of the strength and conditioning coach fit into this at all? I don't remember the timing of that action but do recall it was unexpected by the fans.

Thorn
05-12-2010, 08:41 AM
I haven't been keeping up with this thread for a while because I've already stated my views and have no intention of changing them no matter what the evidence is. LOL (Ain't stubborn old people the shits?)

But I have a question for yall, it's about NFL testing rules. If you get caught on a random test, what are the league rules that apply to you afterwards? Do you get tested once a month for a year? Once a week for 6 months? Is there such a rule? Just asking because I don't know and for some reason I was wondering about this.

Thanks guys!

ChampionTexan
05-12-2010, 08:46 AM
I haven't been keeping up with this thread for a while because I've already stated my views and have no intention of changing them no matter what the evidence is. LOL (Ain't stubborn old people the shits?)

But I have a question for yall, it's about NFL testing rules. If you get caught on a random test, what are the league rules that apply to you afterwards? Do you get tested once a month for a year? Once a week for 6 months? Is there such a rule? Just asking because I don't know and for some reason I was wondering about this.

Thanks guys!

Reasonable Cause Testing For Players With Prior Positive Tests Or Under Other Circumstances: Any player testing positive for a Prohibited Substance, including players testing positive in college or at a scouting combine session, or with otherwise documented prior steroid involvement, will be subject to ongoing reasonable cause testing at a frequency determined by the Independent Administrator. Such players will be subject to ongoing reasonable cause testing both in-season and during the off-season. Reasonable cause testing may also be required when, in the opinion of the Independent Administrator, available information provides a reasonable basis to conclude that a player may have violated the Policy or may have a medical condition that warrants further monitoring. (See Section 12.)
(Underlining added to address specific question)

Link (http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/images/oldImages/fck/2009%20Steroid%20Policy.pdf) (Text on page 5)

Thorn
05-12-2010, 08:49 AM
Thanks ChampionTexan!

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 09:11 AM
I'm with LZ on this. Cush and his team should just take the punishment, stop the speculation and move on. The more they push, the more the NFL is going to get more specific. Cushing should have gotten out in front of this. They have had a long time. He could have laid out his explanation and what he was fighting. People could have then taken it from there. Right now it seems more and more info gets out and the excuses seem lamer and lamer.

JB
05-12-2010, 09:35 AM
I'm with LZ on this. Cush and his team should just take the punishment, stop the speculation and move on. The more they push, the more the NFL is going to get more specific. Cushing should have gotten out in front of this. They have had a long time. He could have laid out his explanation and what he was fighting. People could have then taken it from there. Right now it seems more and more info gets out and the excuses seem lamer and lamer.

How are Cush and the Texans pushing? And I have not heard any excuses from either of them.

HOU-TEX
05-12-2010, 09:51 AM
I'm with LZ on this. Cush and his team should just take the punishment, stop the speculation and move on. The more they push, the more the NFL is going to get more specific. Cushing should have gotten out in front of this. They have had a long time. He could have laid out his explanation and what he was fighting. People could have then taken it from there. Right now it seems more and more info gets out and the excuses seem lamer and lamer.

How are Cush and the Texans pushing? And I have not heard any excuses from either of them.

I agree with JB. I think it's the fans that are speculating and wanting to find reasoning to beleive Cush is innocent and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Kubiak, Smith, McNair and Schaub have already said it's something that's done and they'll deal with it. They'll rally behind Cush and look forward to his return. Cush's team hasn't said a dadgum thing so...

Cushing is going to be bombarded in a few days when he arrives for OTA's. He's had an entire week to prepare and deliver a statement.

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 10:07 AM
How are Cush and the Texans pushing? And I have not heard any excuses from either of them.

LZ, this morning, was acting like Cush and his guys were looking into other avenues to persue here. That is how I took it. He then said they should just shut it down, take the suspension and move forward. He got caught. I agreed.

HOU-TEX
05-12-2010, 10:25 AM
LZ, this morning, was acting like Cush and his guys were looking into other avenues to persue here. That is how I took it. He then said they should just shut it down, take the suspension and move forward. He got caught. I agreed.

Maybe he truly thinks he's innocent? Would you want to shut it down if you were in his shoes?

I think it's fairly certain his suspension will be upheld no matter, but who am I to say he should just move on.

silvrhand
05-12-2010, 10:28 AM
I'm with LZ on this. Cush and his team should just take the punishment, stop the speculation and move on. The more they push, the more the NFL is going to get more specific. Cushing should have gotten out in front of this. They have had a long time. He could have laid out his explanation and what he was fighting. People could have then taken it from there. Right now it seems more and more info gets out and the excuses seem lamer and lamer.

Agreed, if Cush had came out and said hey here is everything I'm taking, and put it up and talked about it then I'd feel more comfortable but I don't think he'll do that cause I think he knows he was juicing/pushing it and got busted.

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 10:42 AM
Maybe he truly thinks he's innocent? Would you want to shut it down if you were in his shoes?

I think it's fairly certain his suspension will be upheld no matter, but who am I to say he should just move on.

Again I'm taking it from the info that is out there and what they are relaying. If that is the case I agree with him. I also stand by my stance that the guy had a whole season to prepare for this and I think they failed in not getting out ahead of this thing once it was announced.

GP
05-12-2010, 11:00 AM
Agreed, if Cush had came out and said hey here is everything I'm taking, and put it up and talked about it then I'd feel more comfortable but I don't think he'll do that cause I think he knows he was juicing/pushing it and got busted.

That's my thoughts, as well.

Some people say he shouldn't have to lay all of that out...but why not?

Not knowing the "why?" behind this whole mess is not going to make it go away. An absence of information will cause others to fill in the blanks on their own. Perception can be reality.

The best P.R. jobs are the ones where the entity comes right out and spells everything out in so much detail that it's maybe even over-board to a degree. Withholding information, for ANY reason, means that there's a potential soft spot being protected.

Still a Cushing fan. Just not sure this is going to go away so easily. We're in the Information Age--We want it, and we want it 5 minutes ago.

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 11:04 AM
I'm with LZ on this. Cush and his team should just take the punishment, stop the speculation and move on. The more they push, the more the NFL is going to get more specific. Cushing should have gotten out in front of this. They have had a long time. He could have laid out his explanation and what he was fighting. People could have then taken it from there. Right now it seems more and more info gets out and the excuses seem lamer and lamer.

there is your first mistake. Lance Zierlein actually had time to make a opinion about sports in between his sexist and degrading comments with Granado? Shocking...

This is the same guy who's dad forwarded porn pic/video to every GM in the NFL, including secretaries, though by accident but none the less....

infantrycak
05-12-2010, 11:04 AM
Sometimes things really are just as they seem. These guys have a lot on the line giving them incentive to use steroids. In many ways, I don't blame them. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable saying he took steroids, and therefore cheated. The thing is, I don't really care, except for the fact that he got popped and now hurts the team.

It's naive to think that a significant portion of the NFL is not on steroids, so players really do have to even up the playing field. It's a nasty cycle of escalation. It's also naive to think that Cushing didn't take steroids at some point prior to this hCG test, IMO. I understand people wanting to believe in the guy, but it's getting to the point where you have to really reach to make the argument that he's clean.

So now Cushing is a long time steroid abuser who was stupid enough to discuss it with both the team trainer and the NFL? See I think it is naive to believe a steroid user would let even the tiniest bit of information out about using a banned substance pointing toward steroids. His response of this is something I have been using for 15 years also doesn't make sense if it was part of a steroid regime. That would either be stupidly adding fuel to the fire or it is an indication that he truly believes he has done nothing wrong.

Rey
05-12-2010, 11:09 AM
That's my thoughts, as well.

Some people say he shouldn't have to lay all of that out...but why not?

Not knowing the "why?" behind this whole mess is not going to make it go away. An absence of information will cause others to fill in the blanks on their own. Perception can be reality.

The best P.R. jobs are the ones where the entity comes right out and spells everything out in so much detail that it's maybe even over-board to a degree. Withholding information, for ANY reason, means that there's a potential soft spot being protected.

Still a Cushing fan. Just not sure this is going to go away so easily. We're in the Information Age--We want it, and we want it 5 minutes ago.

IMO, it's the organizations job to make sure that the fans have an explanation. Personally, I don't ever have to hear anything from Cushing as I really don't care about him beyond the normal feelings I have for the rest of mankind and what he can do for the team on Sundays. Cushing isn't a friend of mine or a family member, so I don't feel like I owe him anything and vice versa.

Really, I don't think individual players owe fans anything because if they were not great players no one would care about them. Also, when mediocre or bad players get hurt most fans aren't going out of their way to show them support.

I'd venture to say that the only reason that people feel Cush owes them something is because he was a beast his rookie season. If this was Brice McCain I doubt people would be as worried about a statement.

beerlover
05-12-2010, 11:11 AM
LZ, this morning, was acting like Cush and his guys were looking into other avenues to persue here. That is how I took it. He then said they should just shut it down, take the suspension and move forward. He got caught. I agreed.

Cushing isn't the type to back away from a fight. Maybe he should just shut it down but seems very un-cushing like to me :hothboy:

JB
05-12-2010, 11:12 AM
IMO, it's the organizations job to make sure that the fans have an explanation. Personally, I don't ever have to hear anything from Cushing as I really don't care about him beyond the normal feelings I have for the rest of mankind and what he can do for the team on Sundays. Cushing isn't a friend of mine or a family member, so I don't feel like I owe him anything and vice versa.

Really, I don't think individual players owe fans anything because if they were not great players no one would care about them. Also, when mediocre or bad players get hurt most fans aren't going out of their way to show them support.

I'd venture to say that the only reason that people feel Cush owes them something is because he was a beast his rookie season. If this was Brice McCain I doubt people would be as worried about a statement.

I think this is a pretty valid statement

ChampionTexan
05-12-2010, 11:24 AM
So now Cushing is a long time steroid abuser who was stupid enough to discuss it with both the team trainer and the NFL? See I think it is naive to believe a steroid user would let even the tiniest bit of information out about using a banned substance pointing toward steroids. His response of this is something I have been using for 15 years also doesn't make sense if it was part of a steroid regime. That would either be stupidly adding fuel to the fire or it is an indication that he truly believes he has done nothing wrong.

Not really sure what to draw from it, but it would also mean he's been using it since he was 8 years old. If true - WTF?

Goldensilence
05-12-2010, 11:28 AM
IMO, it's the organizations job to make sure that the fans have an explanation. Personally, I don't ever have to hear anything from Cushing as I really don't care about him beyond the normal feelings I have for the rest of mankind and what he can do for the team on Sundays. Cushing isn't a friend of mine or a family member, so I don't feel like I owe him anything and vice versa.

Really, I don't think individual players owe fans anything because if they were not great players no one would care about them. Also, when mediocre or bad players get hurt most fans aren't going out of their way to show them support.

I'd venture to say that the only reason that people feel Cush owes them something is because he was a beast his rookie season. If this was Brice McCain I doubt people would be as worried about a statement.

According to reports McNair and the FO was left out of the loop. So it doesn't seem like the Texans know the full story either. The NFL per the CB agreement can't release information regarding the test either.

It's all on Cushing.

Seeing as how ticket and merchadising sales pay their salaries, yes there are SOME things they owe us. Unless you think a fat ass like Jamarcus Russell doesn't owe fans anything for the contract he received?


I think this is a pretty valid statement

McCain obviously wasn't a starter nor had the same recognition as Brian did. If we found out the the third string linebacker on the Colts was juicing it wouldn't nearly be a big deal as finding out Manning was.

Trying to downplay it isn't going to change the outcome or feelings about it leaguewide.

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 11:44 AM
there is your first mistake. Lance Zierlein actually had time to make a opinion about sports in between his sexist and degrading comments with Granado? Shocking...

This is the same guy who's dad forwarded porn pic/video to every GM in the NFL, including secretaries, though by accident but none the less....

That's right, you're the guy who puts the sins of the parents on every kid. Forgot about that glitch.

LZ is also a guy who basically talks to GMs, coaches and others and who probably knows more than a majority in this town about the league and players.

Waiting for some spin as to you not actually writing those words above or them being miscontrued.

infantrycak
05-12-2010, 11:46 AM
Not really sure what to draw from it, but it would also mean he's been using it since he was 8 years old. If true - WTF?

I couldn't remember if they said 10 or 15. Must have been 10. I remember thinking at the time that he was talking about way back through HS not just college.

GP
05-12-2010, 11:56 AM
So now Cushing is a long time steroid abuser who was stupid enough to discuss it with both the team trainer and the NFL? See I think it is naive to believe a steroid user would let even the tiniest bit of information out about using a banned substance pointing toward steroids. His response of this is something I have been using for 15 years also doesn't make sense if it was part of a steroid regime. That would either be stupidly adding fuel to the fire or it is an indication that he truly believes he has done nothing wrong.

So is there something going on with Cushing's intake of supplements that makes it almost unrealistic for him to share EXACTLY what he took that caused the positive test?

For example, HYPOTHETICALLY speaking: Cushing has got a guy, for several years now, who has concocted a blend of stuff (or maybe something totally unique to the industry) that makes it bad business to reveal to the public?

I'm thinking in terms of Cushing protecting a trade secret. He doesn't want to let the word get out, because he and a select few (Clay Mathews?) are keeping their secret to success under wraps...maybe at the request (or even "demand") of the supplier?

Otherwise, why doesn't he just list out the things he takes and reveal that a single substance or a combination of substances has the potential to cause a positive test? Lay it out on a table, photograph it and send it as a news release. Done.

That's where my frustration is on this matter. But maybe there's larger issues at hand that prevent a full disclosure.

The Pencil Neck
05-12-2010, 12:05 PM
So is there something going on with Cushing's intake of supplements that makes it almost unrealistic for him to share EXACTLY what he took that caused the positive test?

For example, HYPOTHETICALLY speaking: Cushing has got a guy, for several years now, who has concocted a blend of stuff (or maybe something totally unique to the industry) that makes it bad business to reveal to the public?

I'm thinking in terms of Cushing protecting a trade secret. He doesn't want to let the word get out, because he and a select few (Clay Mathews?) are keeping their secret to success under wraps...maybe at the request (or even "demand") of the supplier?

Otherwise, why doesn't he just list out the things he takes and reveal that a single substance or a combination of substances has the potential to cause a positive test? Lay it out on a table, photograph it and send it as a news release. Done.

That's where my frustration is on this matter. But maybe there's larger issues at hand that prevent a full disclosure.

Cushing made his case to the NFL and it was denied. It's not going to help him any to make the same case to the general public. It doesn't really matter if the general public knows what he's taking or not.

And if he puts everything he takes on the table and takes a picture of it... so what? There's no guarantee that he put "everything on the table." The picture means nothing. It's no proof of anything.

And, like I said earlier and like you've said here, these guys probably do think of their supplement and training regimens as trade secrets. They don't want everyone else to know everything they're doing to try to get an edge.

So, the only people who gain anything from Cush saying everything he's taking are his competitors. So it doesn't make any sense for him to make some big announcement about everything he's taking.

And there's the possibility that he's preparing legal action against the NFL. In which case, he has to keep quiet.

I'm not expecting him to make any disclosure statement just to mollify a bunch of fans. It doesn't make sense for him to do that.

gtexan02
05-12-2010, 12:05 PM
CnD is hcg ever used to treat hormal difficencies or other endocrinology disorders?

Maybe cushing isnt saying what he took because he's embarassed

JB
05-12-2010, 12:06 PM
So is there something going on with Cushing's intake of supplements that makes it almost unrealistic for him to share EXACTLY what he took that caused the positive test?

For example, HYPOTHETICALLY speaking: Cushing has got a guy, for several years now, who has concocted a blend of stuff (or maybe something totally unique to the industry) that makes it bad business to reveal to the public?

I'm thinking in terms of Cushing protecting a trade secret. He doesn't want to let the word get out, because he and a select few (Clay Mathews?) are keeping their secret to success under wraps...maybe at the request (or even "demand") of the supplier?

Otherwise, why doesn't he just list out the things he takes and reveal that a single substance or a combination of substances has the potential to cause a positive test? Lay it out on a table, photograph it and send it as a news release. Done.

That's where my frustration is on this matter. But maybe there's larger issues at hand that prevent a full disclosure.


:thinking: You know, he may just want to talk to his teammates and give his explanation to them before he goes public...

I'm just saying...

GP
05-12-2010, 12:08 PM
Don't know if this has been posted, but here is information off espn's website (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5176949):


"This is the first time we've encountered an issue like this," said Lou Ferrara, AP's managing editor for sports and entertainment. "Because these awards are based on on-field performance, we consider it necessary to review the matter and allow for a revote, especially after concerns were raised by many of our voters."

Houston Chronicle columnist John McClain wrote Tuesday that he voted for Cushing to win the award again.

"Why? Because a lot of players have won AP awards after being suspended," he wrote.


Texans owner Robert McNair on Monday criticized the suspension and appeal process that he said doesn't provide enough information to the team.

"The club is left completely out of the loop on that," McNair said. "We're not even notified, it's the league and the player and the players' union. All we know is what's been announced at this point in time."

McNair said Monday that the Texans were aware that Cushing had "an issue" with the NFL last season but didn't know the details.

"Brian had mentioned that he had an issue there, but we don't know what any of the details are, we don't know what doctors he may have consulted with, we don't know what evidence that the league might have had ... which is a very bad position to be in because we're the guy that's got the investment in the player. The league doesn't have any money invested in the player, the union doesn't have any money invested in the player, and yet they get the information and we don't.

"So it's a sensitive area because it is sort of like medical information and there's confidentiality and this sort of thing. But I think it's something that needs to be addressed in the next collective bargaining agreement."

The NFL did not immediately comment on McNair's statement.


This is going to cause the next CBA to make it mandatory that franchise owners receive the full disclosure on a test. Bank on it.

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 12:08 PM
CnD is hcg ever used to treat hormal difficencies or other endocrinology disorders?

Maybe cushing isnt saying what he took because he's embarassed

I think the embarrassment may be the suspension in general. They didn't get out ahead of this thing. Some people softened when they heard it was "non-steroidal" and he passed a lie detector, but then the substance leaked and people like CND were able to explain that it didn't look good from the standpoint of how it is tested, etc. What can he say now really?It doesn't look good. It is to the point where I think the window to talk has gone and silence and coming back with no hiccups is the key.

Double Barrel
05-12-2010, 12:13 PM
Sometimes things really are just as they seem. These guys have a lot on the line giving them incentive to use steroids. In many ways, I don't blame them. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable saying he took steroids, and therefore cheated. The thing is, I don't really care, except for the fact that he got popped and now hurts the team.

It's naive to think that a significant portion of the NFL is not on steroids, so players really do have to even up the playing field. It's a nasty cycle of escalation. It's also naive to think that Cushing didn't take steroids at some point prior to this hCG test, IMO. I understand people wanting to believe in the guy, but it's getting to the point where you have to really reach to make the argument that he's clean.

So now Cushing is a long time steroid abuser who was stupid enough to discuss it with both the team trainer and the NFL? See I think it is naive to believe a steroid user would let even the tiniest bit of information out about using a banned substance pointing toward steroids. His response of this is something I have been using for 15 years also doesn't make sense if it was part of a steroid regime. That would either be stupidly adding fuel to the fire or it is an indication that he truly believes he has done nothing wrong.

But then there is Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor): the meta-theoretical principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

GP
05-12-2010, 12:14 PM
Cushing made his case to the NFL and it was denied. It's not going to help him any to make the same case to the general public. It doesn't really matter if the general public knows what he's taking or not.

And if he puts everything he takes on the table and takes a picture of it... so what? There's no guarantee that he put "everything on the table." The picture means nothing. It's no proof of anything.

And, like I said earlier and like you've said here, these guys probably do think of their supplement and training regimens as trade secrets. They don't want everyone else to know everything they're doing to try to get an edge.

So, the only people who gain anything from Cush saying everything he's taking are his competitors. So it doesn't make any sense for him to make some big announcement about everything he's taking.

And there's the possibility that he's preparing legal action against the NFL. In which case, he has to keep quiet.

I'm not expecting him to make any disclosure statement just to mollify a bunch of fans. It doesn't make sense for him to do that.

I'm with you. I'm just saying there are ways to handle this, and it appears Cushing is NOT going to give answers in a public manner.

He appears to be headed toward (a) moving forward without continual acknowledgment or public feuding with the NFL's testing commission and/or (b) a possible showdown in court to challenge how he can pass so many other tests and yet have this one positive test that has (1) Suspended him for 4 games, (2) endangered his DROY award status, and (3) potentially affect his level of income.

BTW, I think Cushing will win the DROY award (again) which will cause a whole 'nother level of reaction from Baird and other NFL'ers who want to speak about this issue. All we need is Al Pacino with his famous movie rant "I'm just gettin' warmed up!" to set the tone on what's gonna' go down from here on out! LOL.

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 12:22 PM
]That's right, you're the guy who puts the sins of the parents on every kid. Forgot about that glitch[/B].

LZ is also a guy who basically talks to GMs, coaches and others and who probably knows more than a majority in this town about the league and players.

Waiting for some spin as to you not actually writing those words above or them being miscontrued.

Because more times than not, the children suffer from their parent's mistakes but you wouldn't know anything about that probably....

LZ is also the same guy who cries about one pick and praises the next. Dogged the Mario Williams pick for the whole 2006 season, then turns around and says he is the greatest pick ever. Flip flops worse than a politician....

But you go on ahead use him as a measuring stick when it comes to sports journalism....that is a very short stick...

WWJD
05-12-2010, 12:31 PM
Because more times than not, the children suffer from their parent's mistakes but you wouldn't know anything about that probably....

LZ is also the same guy who cries about one pick and praises the next. Dogged the Mario Williams pick for the whole 2006 season, then turns around and says he is the greatest pick ever. Flip flops worse than a politician....

But you go on ahead use him as a measuring stick when it comes to sports journalism....that is a very short stick...

Lance has posted on this board before...I always liked him on 610 but can't pick up his new station.

I think the general consensus about Lance is that he's far more informative regarding the team than John McClain is. And I like John but..

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 12:35 PM
Lance has posted on this board before...I always liked him on 610 but can't pick up his new station.

I think the general consensus about Lance is that he's far more informative regarding the team than John McClain is. And I like John but..

You can't pick it up because the radio station runs on very low wattage. It is almost like a pirate radio station, with a FCC license...


He maybe but he seems to flip flop allot on his decisions. Aggravated the hell out of me when he was at 610, not to mention his and Granado's show turned into a Walton and Johnson morning show rather a sports talk morning show....

Don't even get me started on Richard Justice. He is still clinging to VY's jock strap what 5 years after the fact....

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 12:40 PM
Because more times than not, the children suffer from their parent's mistakes but you wouldn't know anything about that probably....

LZ is also the same guy who cries about one pick and praises the next. Dogged the Mario Williams pick for the whole 2006 season, then turns around and says he is the greatest pick ever. Flip flops worse than a politician....

But you go on ahead use him as a measuring stick when it comes to sports journalism....that is a very short stick...

Right, a guys Dad sending porn around then makes the son a porn sender who knows nothing about football. Makes alot of sense....per usual with you.

He has admitted completely that he was wrong about the pick and I haven't heard him yet say Mario is the best pick ever. He talks about his motor still and not getting to the QB more often with his size, etc. You just want to pick and chose what you want to hear. He and John Harris get in depth. They put out one of the best draft guides I have ever read when it came to depth and analysis. The guy isn't my go to guy on football but I agreed with his stance this morning. So you have anything else.?Maybe his Mom got a speeding ticket once so her son must not know football.

Again, on subject, his stance was that Cushing should move forward...check.

ChampionTexan
05-12-2010, 12:41 PM
Because more times than not, the children suffer from their parent's mistakes but you wouldn't know anything about that probably....

LZ is also the same guy who cries about one pick and praises the next. Dogged the Mario Williams pick for the whole 2006 season, then turns around and says he is the greatest pick ever. Flip flops worse than a politician....

But you go on ahead use him as a measuring stick when it comes to sports journalism....that is a very short stick...

Love me some LZ.

He's more connected to the NFL than virtually any other local media member with the possible exception of McClain, but as WWJD said, he's willing to work for a story. When's the last time a local sports-media member broke a national story? I'm thinking it was LZ and the Phat Albert FA signing.

As far as the Mario pick, I don't actually recall him dogging the pick, and I don't believe he's since referred to it as "The greatest pick ever", but I know this - if he didn't like the pick in '06, but has since revised his opinion, I call that A.) Having an open mind, B.) Being willing to admit you were wrong, and C.) Admitting what Richard Justice won't, as it relates to the Mario pick. Three pretty big compliments as far as I'm concerned!

WWJD
05-12-2010, 12:42 PM
Just saying Lance is a real smart football guy. Agree or disagree is not the issue. He has sources..his dad is an NFL guy...and just from all I've been able to piece together here and there Lance gets more kudos for knowing what he's talking about than John does and he's the NFL guy at the Chronicle. And I like John.

Sports radio in Houston is sort of a sad subject with me..but that is not on topic and for another thread.

The Texans would probably be best served to have some sort of press conference regarding this issue...get all their ducks in a row...and try to get whatever information from Brian he wishes released and have that flow thru the team.

And move on. Goodness just move on.

BigTimeTexanFan
05-12-2010, 12:46 PM
I think virtually every radio host was against selecting Mario considering he was under the radar until the final days leading up to that draft. He has also admitted he was wrong, which I can't say for some other certain hosts. I like John and Lance. I get sports + entertainment.

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 12:51 PM
Right, a guys Dad sending porn around then makes the son a porn sender who knows nothing about football. Makes alot of sense....per usual with you.

He has admitted completely that he was wrong about the pick and I haven't heard him yet say Mario is the best pick ever. He talks about his motor still and not getting to the QB more often with his size, etc. You just want to pick and chose what you want to hear. He and John Harris get in depth. They put out one of the best draft guides I have ever read when it came to depth and analysis. The guy isn't my go to guy on football but I agreed with his stance this morning. So you have anything else.?Maybe his Mom got a speeding ticket once so her son must not know football.

Again, on subject, his stance was that Cushing should move forward...check.

WOW love how your context assessment is never spot on. It would be more so that bad decisions tend to run between father and son, you would know that if you had listen to LZ for the years he was at 610 but evidently you know everything....

He put Mario, in his top 2 for DE in the league in 07-08 then bagged on him again last year but if you didn't hear that, then I guess it didn't happen. Fllliiip flopper....

Said on his radio show that Okoye was a great pick at the time, then bagged on him

Said Schaub was a waste of 2 second round picks, wrong again...

I got plenty of examples.

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 12:58 PM
Love me some LZ.

He's more connected to the NFL than virtually any other local media member with the possible exception of McClain, but as WWJD said, he's willing to work for a story. When's the last time a local sports-media member broke a national story? I'm thinking it was LZ and the Phat Albert FA signing.

As far as the Mario pick, I don't actually recall him dogging the pick, and I don't believe he's since referred to it as "The greatest pick ever", but I know this - if he didn't like the pick in '06, but has since revised his opinion, I call that A.) Having an open mind, B.) Being willing to admit you were wrong, and C.) Admitting what Richard Justice won't, as it relates to the Mario pick. Three pretty big compliments as far as I'm concerned!

Not in a literal sense as for the entire NFL, didn't think folks would take that literally...More so for the Texans.

He dogged him, said he was trash basically and he wanted either Young or Bush, can't remember which one he wanted and Granado wanted. Then come his 2nd year and 3rd year, praises from the heavens...Last year, garbage....

now i am not saying he needs battle red colored glasses, but for someone that is that close tot he team and media, you would think he wouldn't make such broad stroked assessments...JMO

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 01:00 PM
WOW love how your context assessment is never spot on. It would be more so that bad decisions tend to run between father and son, you would know that if you had listen to LZ for the years he was at 610 but evidently you know everything....

He put Mario, in his top 2 for DE in the league in 07-08 then bagged on him again last year but if you didn't hear that, then I guess it didn't happen. Fllliiip flopper....

Said on his radio show that Okoye was a great pick at the time, then bagged on him

Said Schaub was a waste of 2 second round picks, wrong again...

I got plenty of examples.

There is a difference between flip flopping and assessment of situations. Almost every guy out there is wrong on draft picks. The whole league and people here were about Mario. The truth is he stunk his first year and looked like a bust. Then he broke out in Year 2. Then last year he didn't play as well. It isn't flip flopping to state those things, its analysis of football. So in order for a guy to have any cred he must always be right? Okoye was regarded as a young guy who could grow and anchor the D-line based on his Senior Bowl play. He then sucked so the assessment at draft time differs from when you see him perform. I'm not sure what is so wrong with that? It's not like Justice who will say 2 different things about a guy within a month regarding situations that haven't changed.

Again, back to Cushing.

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 01:02 PM
Just saying Lance is a real smart football guy. Agree or disagree is not the issue. He has sources..his dad is an NFL guy...and just from all I've been able to piece together here and there Lance gets more kudos for knowing what he's talking about than John does and he's the NFL guy at the Chronicle. And I like John.

Sports radio in Houston is sort of a sad subject with me..but that is not on topic and for another thread.

The Texans would probably be best served to have some sort of press conference regarding this issue...get all their ducks in a row...and try to get whatever information from Brian he wishes released and have that flow thru the team.

And move on. Goodness just move on.

Cushing is suppose to have a press conference on Monday, what I heard this morning.This will probably be the last we hear of it until Training Camp, then the start of the season...

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 01:09 PM
There is a difference between flip flopping and assessment of situations. Almost every guy out there is wrong on draft picks. The whole league and people here were about Mario. The truth is he stunk his first year and looked like a bust. Then he broke out in Year 2. Then last year he didn't play as well. It isn't flip flopping to state those things, its analysis of football. So in order for a guy to have any cred he must always be right? Okoye was regarded a young guy who could grow and anchor the D-line absed on his Senior Bowl play. He then sucked so the assessment at draft time differs from when you see him perform. I'm not sure what is so wrong with that? It's not like Justice who will say 2 different things about a guy within a month regarding situations that haven't changed.

Again, back to Cushing. Maybe Cushings Dad and Mom cheated the IRs, thus this for little Brian.

It is a very thin line, especially when you pretty much say he was a horrible draft pick because the Texans didn't take your guy, then praise him because he proved you wrong and say he is one of if not the greatest pick in Texans history, then bag him again for having a down year....

In sports media, cred is earned being more right than wrong. I have yet to see that with any Houston media outlet, thus why you should make your own assessment and opinion and not form one from someone who is more wrong than right....

I feel the same way about McClain as well....

Flip flopping, assessments, whatever kind of lipstick you want to put on the pig...

ChampionTexan
05-12-2010, 01:13 PM
Not in a literal sense as for the entire NFL, didn't think folks would take that literally...More so for the Texans.

He dogged him, said he was trash basically and he wanted either Young or Bush, can't remember which one he wanted and Granado wanted. Then come his 2nd year and 3rd year, praises from the heavens...Last year, garbage....

now i am not saying he needs battle red colored glasses, but for someone that is that close tot he team and media, you would think he wouldn't make such broad stroked assessments...JMO

I listen to LZ quite a bit (probably more than you - unless you spend a lot of time listening to somebody you don't appear to care for). I don't recall him ever saying Mario was a better pick than AJ. Nor do I think he believes that based on what he's said about both players. He's a talk-show host, and and information guy. He expresses an opinion, and unless you expect him to be omniscient, or silent, there's not a single thing wrong with being wrong sometimes. You're posts have also been critical of Richard Justice. I wonder if you're critical of the fact that he still won't admit he was wrong about the Mario pick (and then when/if he did, you could just switch your criticism of him to the flip-flopping thing).

What you see as flip-flopping, I see as willingness to evaluate things without feeling the need to defend your previous position for ego or reputation purposes. Again, I remember surprise from LZ (and everyone else) regarding the Mario pick, but I don't remember him trashing Mario all that much as a football player. In terms of subsequent performance, Mario did have better 2007 & 2008 seasons than 2009. Given that fact - and given the fact that I've heard LZ say Mario is still a very good football player - he's just not playing to the level he's come to expect, what would you view as the proper stance for LZ (or anyone else for that matter) to take on the topic.

For what it's worth, while I can't go back an dig up recordings or quotes any more than you can, I think you are way exaggerating LZ's positions on a number of these things in an effort to make your point.

HoustonFrog
05-12-2010, 01:13 PM
It is a very thin line, especially when you pretty much say he was a horrible draft pick because the Texans didn't take your guy, then praise him because he proved you wrong and say he is one of if not the greatest pick in Texans history, then bag him again for having a down year....

In sports media, cred is earned being more right than wrong. I have yet to see that with any Houston media outlet, thus why you should make your own assessment and opinion and not form one from someone who is more wrong than right....

I feel the same way about McClain as well....

Flip flopping, assessments, whatever kind of lipstick you want to put on the pig...

This town has some of the worst sports talk I've ever heard and I have never based my own opinion off of it. You can agree with what is being talked about that. That is usually how it works...you agree or disagree....or blame their parents.:spin:

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 01:22 PM
I listen to LZ quite a bit (probably more than you - unless you spend a lot of time listening to somebody you don't appear to care for). I don't recall him ever saying Mario was a better pick than AJ. Nor do I think he believes that based on what he's said about both players. He's a talk-show host, and and information guy. He expresses an opinion, and unless you expect him to be omniscient, or silent, there's not a single thing wrong with being wrong sometimes. You're posts have also been critical of Richard Justice. I wonder if you're critical of the fact that he still won't admit he was wrong about the Mario pick (and then when/if he did, you could just switch your criticism of him to the flip-flopping thing).

What you see as flip-flopping, I see as willingness to evaluate things without feeling the need to defend your previous position for ego or reputation purposes. Again, I remember surprise from LZ (and everyone else) regarding the Mario pick, but I don't remember him trashing Mario all that much as a football player. In terms of subsequent performance, Mario did have better 2007 & 2008 seasons than 2009. Given that fact - and given the fact that I've heard LZ say Mario is still a very good football player - he's just not playing to the level he's come to expect, what would you view as the proper stance for LZ (or anyone else for that matter) to take on the topic.

For what it's worth, while I can't go back an dig up recordings or quotes any more than you can, I think you are way exaggerating LZ's positions on a number of these things in an effort to make your point.

I wish I had the email from when he was with 610 saying that he wasn't Jared Allen nor Peppers, he was a horrible pick because nobody knew about him.

Then he gets fired or leaves from 610 and I follow them over to 1560 The Game, and low and behold, it is praises from the heavens about Mario. The when I can get that station in, last year around end of November, Mario can't do this and that and blah and blah.

Dunno maybe he just hits that nerve. I have just always found him to flip flop on subjects more than stand his ground...

Anyway moving on. Enough time wasted talking about a mediocre sports talk radio host....

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 01:24 PM
This town has some of the worst sports talk I've ever heard and I have never based my own opinion off of it. You can agree with what is being talked about that. That is usually how it works...you agree or disagree....or blame their parents.:spin:

Still spinning your wheels on that subject huh?:facepalm:

eriadoc
05-12-2010, 02:26 PM
But then there is Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor): the meta-theoretical principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

That's what I was trying to remember when I made that post. The simplest answer is usually the correct answer.

Chance_C
05-12-2010, 02:32 PM
Cushing retains award!!

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 02:50 PM
Cushing retains award!!

So would that make him a 2-time DROY award winner?

CloakNNNdagger
05-12-2010, 02:57 PM
CnD is hcg ever used to treat hormal difficencies or other endocrinology disorders?

Maybe cushing isnt saying what he took because he's embarassed

HCG is seldom used for any condition of low testosterone first of all because of long term prohibitive cost, it offers typical inability to maintain stable testosterone elevation, and, most importantly, for the fact that most low testosterone conditions are associated with an inability for the testes to produce testosterone (a function that is necessary for the HCG to be able to produce the desired result).

gtexan02
05-12-2010, 03:06 PM
HCG is seldom used for any condition of low testosterone first of all because of long term prohibitive cost, it offers typical inability to maintain stable testosterone elevation, and, most importantly, for the fact that most low testosterone conditions are associated with an inability for the testes to produce testosterone (a function that is necessary for the HCG to be able to produce the desired result).

What about if he had gynecomastia? During puberty or something.

Would fit with the presumed 10 year useage

eriadoc
05-12-2010, 03:13 PM
This is starting to really be amusing.

Maybe he had to take this stuff because it has some random side effect in .001% of people who only have a left testicle if it's taken on a 28-day cycle while wearing a training bra and standing on his head.

:D

EDIT - not picking on you, gtexan; just commenting on the general tone of the fans.

GP
05-12-2010, 03:21 PM
Cushing is suppose to have a press conference on Monday, what I heard this morning.This will probably be the last we hear of it until Training Camp, then the start of the season...

It'd be funny to have a 12-year-old boy come out to the podium in a huge Cushing jersey and answer questions.

Awww, look at that: Brian Cushing has really smalled down.

LOL.

Ole Miss Texan
05-12-2010, 03:42 PM
I know it really sucks that Cushing will miss the first 4 games of the season but the good news is it will keep him fresh and he'll still get to play in the remaining 16 games.

:trophy:

GuerillaBlack
05-12-2010, 03:46 PM
I know it really sucks that Cushing will miss the first 4 games of the season but the good news is it will keep him fresh and he'll still get to play in the remaining 16 games.

:trophy:

I see what you did there.

Texan_Bill
05-12-2010, 03:51 PM
I know it really sucks that Cushing will miss the first 4 games of the season but the good news is it will keep him fresh and he'll still get to play in the remaining 16 games.

:trophy:

I see what you did there.

15 games. We will have a bye during Wildcard Weekend.. :texanbill:

GP
05-12-2010, 03:53 PM
15 games. We will have a bye during Wildcard Weekend.. :texanbill:

16 games.

Because Cushing will demand that we actually play during our own bye week. :aggressive:

Ole Miss Texan
05-12-2010, 03:53 PM
15 games. We will have a bye during Wildcard Weekend.. :texanbill:

"I liiiiiiiike"

http://hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/borat-i-like-hoboken.jpg

The Pencil Neck
05-12-2010, 04:37 PM
16 games. We'll have a bye on Wildcard Weekend but the AP will vote that we have to re-play the Super Bowl because Pollard knocked the piss out of someone and it hurt their feelings. So we'll knock the piss out of them again (and Leach will KTtFO) just to teach them a double lesson.

We'll be the first team to win the SB twice in the same year.

HOU-TEX
05-12-2010, 05:17 PM
I reckon this might've been mentioned already, but just in case.

One NFL GM tells Thomas George of AOL Fanhouse that suspended LB Brian Cushing's steroids use dates back to high school.

"We did our research on him before the draft last year and we concluded he was a chronic steroid user dating back to high school," said the unnamed general manager. "More than a few people were surprised when he passed the steroid tests at the Combine. I think the guy became a pro at masking it, until he was caught. I definitely would have taken my vote back on (the Defensive Rookie of the Year) award if I had one."

http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playernews.aspx?sport=NFL

gtexan02
05-12-2010, 05:20 PM
I reckon this might've been mentioned already, but just in case.



http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playernews.aspx?sport=NFL

"Unnamed GM" is probably in the AFC South

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 05:28 PM
"Unnamed GM" is probably in the AFC South

Or the GM that that has an axe to grind because he wanted Cushing to begin with, thinking the Texans would take Matthews....

HuttoKarl
05-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Or the GM that that has an axe to grind because he wanted Cushing to begin with, thinking the Texans would take Matthews....

That GM is gutless and probably resides in Tennessee.

HOU-TEX
05-12-2010, 05:37 PM
That GM is gutless and probably resides in Tennessee.

Or, he might be telling the truth and our scouts and GM missed it. :shrug:

Brando
05-12-2010, 05:37 PM
Just a GM adding fuel to the fire. :nolisten:

JB
05-12-2010, 05:41 PM
Or, he might be telling the truth and our scouts and GM missed it. :shrug:

Really don't matter now. We gots what we gots and we just have to make the best of it.

GuerillaBlack
05-12-2010, 05:47 PM
I'd still take Cushing over Matthews. Cushing is an all-around beast. Matthews is a semi-all around beast. And the other guy's name is too hard to spell.

BullNation4Life
05-12-2010, 05:48 PM
That GM is gutless and probably resides in Tennessee.

yeeeeeesssssssssss.....

HOU-TEX
05-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Really don't matter now. We gots what we gots and we just have to make the best of it.

Truth!

CloakNNNdagger
05-12-2010, 06:03 PM
What about if he had gynecomastia? During puberty or something.

Would fit with the presumed 10 year useage

It is not an effective substance to treat primary GYNECOMASTIA (MAN BOOBS). There are several avenues that are used, with much better but still unpredictable inconsistent success, such as testosterones and aromatase inhibitors.

You need to understand that Gynecomastia occurs when there is a relative imbalance between too much estrogen and estrogen-related substances circulating (or locally stimulating), and relatively too low testosterone and testosterone-related substances.

The interesting thing is that too much testosterone (especially exogenous and moreso if given with HCG) can also result in gynecomastia. Why? Because at a point somewhere above the high normal level, the surplus testosterone is automatically converted by aromatase enzymes (refer to 1st paragraph) to estrogen-related substances. Same result........."man boobs"........another reason (besides periods of low testosterone) that I not uncommonly see steroid/testosterone/hcg users for surgical breast reduction...........even after they have quit. Yes, it is not uncommon for those B or C cups to at one point in time become permanent fixtures (my largest case was a professional athlete with a DD on one side and DDD on the other side).

Texan_Bill
05-12-2010, 06:12 PM
We did our research on him before the draft last year and we concluded he was a chronic steroid user dating back to high school,"

"It's not what ya know, it's what you can prove"

Can you prove it?? Then STFU!

Grid
05-12-2010, 06:17 PM
It has been noted on several occasions that we have one of the largest scouting "divisions" in the league.. and that we go very in depth into all of our prospects.

If what that nameless GM said is true.. then we knew about it.

I find it hard to believe that we would take a player like that.. so im gonna conclude that that nameless GM is a ********* who is stirring the pot.


EDIT: ********* = Vaginal cleansing bag

CloakNNNdagger
05-12-2010, 08:15 PM
Looks like the NFL is pretty serious about them being the sole and "final word" on drug testing their players.

NFL will take StarCaps case to Supreme Court (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/12/nfl-will-take-starcaps-case-to-supreme-court/)

The complicated and convoluted StarCaps litigation continues to play out in multiple forums. Six days after a judge in Minnesota ruled that the NFL had violated state drug-testing laws but that the suspensions of Vikings defensive tackles Pat and Kevin Williams would not be overturned, the NFL has decided to appeal to the United State Supreme Court the federal rulings that allowed the state-court case to even exist.

According to Brian Murphy of the St. Paul Pioneer Press, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello confirmed that the attempt will come on Thursday.

It's the equivalent of a Hail Mary pass; the U.S. Supreme Court receives thousands of petitions for what the legal beagles call "certiorari," and the highest court in the land grants the request in only a fraction of the submitted cases.

So why does the NFL care, given its "win" in Minnesota? The ruling from Judge Gary Larson could be altered on appeal, especially since some disagree with the notion that the NFL could be in violation of the law yet have no consequence. Also, even if the league prevails in Minnesota, it would prefer a ruling that exempts the steroids policy from the application of the law of any specific state, like Minnesota.

thunderkyss
05-12-2010, 08:23 PM
So now Cushing is a long time steroid abuser who was stupid enough to discuss it with both the team trainer and the NFL? See I think it is naive to believe a steroid user would let even the tiniest bit of information out about using a banned substance pointing toward steroids. His response of this is something I have been using for 15 years also doesn't make sense if it was part of a steroid regime. That would either be stupidly adding fuel to the fire or it is an indication that he truly believes he has done nothing wrong.

Until there there is clear substantial evidence that he was using steroids, I'm not going to believe it. Maybe that makes me naive, if so, so be it. I still want to believe there are good people out there doing the right thing, I want to believe Brian is one of those, and I want to believe in the Easter Bunny.

I also believe if someone, like Brian, has been fighting this his whole life, and stayed clean because of it, then it is a story we can be proud of, and a reason for Brian to keep fighting.

If he were cheating, I would expect him to lay down, and try to let it pass.

thunderkyss
05-12-2010, 08:41 PM
So is there something going on with Cushing's intake of supplements that makes it almost unrealistic for him to share EXACTLY what he took that caused the positive test?

I know, how badly I want Brian to come out and say something. I think he had a Press conference today, but I missed it. But try to put yourself in his shoes. Right now, there may not be anything he can possibly say, that won't be spun. He's been fighting this his whole life, and he probably knows how bad rushing to "say something" may hurt more than help.

If you haven't read his trainers comments, I would. This is someone who knows Brian, and has a stake in Brian's regimen.

Here's the deal: (http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe.html)

Friday night I was eating dinner with my girlfriend and 2-year-old niece at a Jersey Diner when I see Brian Cushing's name appear on ESPN's ticker for violating the NFL's steroid policy. I was shocked! But, my first reaction was NOT, "Damn Cush, what the hell were you thinking?!" I immediately looked at my girlfriend and said, "There is NO FU#KING WAY Cush failed a steroid test! This is DEFINITELY a mistake...I gotta call him ASAP!" The reason I KNEW Cush didn't fail a steroid test is because I know Brian Cushing, the person. And I know FOR A FACT that he does NOT take anabolic steroids (even though I just saw it on ESPN). In fact, in all my years of training Cush, we've never even talked about steroids! So, unlike many of Cush's "friends" and "fans" who immediately threw him under the bus (I'm talking to you, Jay Glazer); I called Cush to get HIS story and show my support!

Once I got Cush on the phone, he tells me he's shocked at what's happening, but assures me he didn't fail for steroids. I believe him. Sure enough, the next day the term "steroids" has been replaced with "PED"...BIG DIFFERENCE. Yet, ESPN never issued any official retraction statement. Apparently, they don't think there's any difference between anabolic steroids and a category that's so big (and vague), it includes friggin' cough medicine!?!?

There is a LOT I want to say regarding the specifics of this story, but I'm not at liberty to speak about it because it's being handled by Cush's agent and attorney. So for now, I'm just going to address the topics that have been directed specifically towards me and my gym...

Grid
05-12-2010, 08:47 PM
I know, how badly I want Brian to come out and say something. I think he had a Press conference today, but I missed it. But try to put yourself in his shoes. Right now, there may not be anything he can possibly say, that won't be spun. He's been fighting this his whole life, and he probably knows how bad rushing to "say something" may hurt more than help.

If you haven't read his trainers comments, I would. This is someone who knows Brian, and has a stake in Brian's regimen.

(must spred rep)

Nice find.

The press conference is, i think, tomorrow at 1pm.

Hopefully he is going to tell his side of the story and what specifically he took that caused the hGC.

Lucky
05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
I'm with LZ on this. Cush and his team should just take the punishment, stop the speculation and move on.
Everyone deserves the opportunity to defend their name. I know I would, if I were innocent. I can't bash Cushing for this.
Cushing retains award!!
And that was the right thing to do. Otherwise, it would set a bad precedent. Paraphrasing Jason Whitlock "If we're rescinding all accolades from suspected steroid users, I'll miss seeing the '70s Steelers when I visit the Pro Football Hall of Fame."

If you haven't read his trainers comments, I would. This is someone who knows Brian, and has a stake in Brian's regimen.
That's quite the testimonial. But as you said, DeFranco has a stake in the perception of Brian Cushing.

Honoring Earl 34
05-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Everyone deserves the opportunity to defend their name. I know I would, if I were innocent. I can't bash Cushing for this.


And that was the right thing to do. Otherwise, it would set a bad precedent. Paraphrasing Jason
Whitlock "If we're rescinding all accolades from suspected steroid users, I'll miss seeing the '70s Steelers when I visit the Pro Football Hall of Fame."

That's quite the testimonial. But as you said, DeFranco has a stake in the perception of Brian Cushing.

As long as he doesn't start misremembering stuff .

CloakNNNdagger
05-12-2010, 10:48 PM
Anti-doping experts say NFL's handling of Brian Cushing's positive test devalues drug-testing policy
BY Michael O'Keeffe and Nathaniel Vinton
NY DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITERS


Levey/GettyHouston Texans linebacker Brian Cushing plays the entire season following a positive test for a banned substance, a decision that draws the ire of anti-doping experts critical of the NFL's policy. Related NewsArticlesMLB to put Dominican prospects to testThe 'roid life: Actor's story a cautionary taleCushing ban could cost him rookie awardSanchez 'surprised' by Cushing's failed drug testSean Penn sentenced to anger management class for battery charge against photogAnti-doping experts said Wednesday that allowing Houston Texans linebacker Brian Cushing to play for an entire season after testing positive for a banned substance makes a mockery of the NFL's drug-testing program.

"It is so far beyond the pale that it negates the intent of the policy," said Dr. Gary Wadler, an associate professor of medicine at New York University and an adviser to the World Anti-Doping Agency. "This guy gets tested in September and plays the whole season? He played so well he was named defensive rookie of the year? Then it is announced that he was taking a performance-enhancing drug? That doesn't make sense.

"It makes a mockery of the anti-doping process."

In September, Cushing submitted the urine that tested positive for human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), a banned substance sometimes prescribed as a fertility aid that is also favored by steroid users whose ability to produce natural testosterone has been diminished. He was not disciplined by the league until last week.

According to Dr. Lewis Maharam, medical director of the Rock 'N' Roll Marathon Series, the NFL's lag time is unacceptable.

"For any drug program to be effective, you need to streamline the appeals process to make it faster," Maharam said. "Legal challenges need to be handled rapidly. Setting up a system that drags it out allows some to delay the process."

Cushing, 23, will be suspended without pay for the first four games of the 2010 season, although he can participate in offseason workouts, training camp and preseason games. He will not be eligible for the Pro Bowl or any NFL-sponsored awards.

Cushing was awarded the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year Award in January and retained the award in a revote this week called by the Associated Press, which conducts the balloting, after his hCG use became public. Eighteen of 50 scribes voted again for Cushing.

Cushing has denied doping, and emphasized that hCG is "non-steroidal," but the substance is well-known in the steroid underworld as an accessory to steroid use because it helps kick-start natural testosterone after a steroid cycle.

"I have never heard of somebody just taking it just to take it," said Scott Siegel, a former steroid dealer currently in Westchester County Jail. "Mostly everyone I know would be bodybuilders taking it after a cycle."

Siegel, who played a steroid dealer in the 2008 film "The Wrestler," said the drug is very common among steroid users.




You can also read the rest of the article on page 2. Link (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/2010/05/12/2010-05-12_slow_nfl_ban_irks_wada.html)

drs23
05-13-2010, 12:28 AM
That's my thoughts, as well.

Some people say he shouldn't have to lay all of that out...but why not?

Not knowing the "why?" behind this whole mess is not going to make it go away. An absence of information will cause others to fill in the blanks on their own. Perception can be reality.

The best P.R. jobs are the ones where the entity comes right out and spells everything out in so much detail that it's maybe even over-board to a degree. Withholding information, for ANY reason, means that there's a potential soft spot being protected.

Still a Cushing fan. Just not sure this is going to go away so easily. We're in the Information Age--We want it, and we want it 5 minutes ago.+

Perception IS reality, as evidencened by the responce spectrum on this board. There've been persuading arguments all over the board as well. How much will folks perception really change after we "hear it from the horse's mouth?"

Will he say "too much" or "not enough"?

Just axin...

The Pencil Neck
05-13-2010, 01:33 AM
That's my thoughts, as well.

Some people say he shouldn't have to lay all of that out...but why not?

Not knowing the "why?" behind this whole mess is not going to make it go away. An absence of information will cause others to fill in the blanks on their own. Perception can be reality.

The best P.R. jobs are the ones where the entity comes right out and spells everything out in so much detail that it's maybe even over-board to a degree. Withholding information, for ANY reason, means that there's a potential soft spot being protected.

Still a Cushing fan. Just not sure this is going to go away so easily. We're in the Information Age--We want it, and we want it 5 minutes ago.

I kinda missed this in between all the messages that were going back and forth.

Perception is reality in those situations where what some perceiving group's perceptions are actually matter.

If you're an actor or an actress or a politician or an entertainer of some sort, how you're perceived is everything. Your reputation and other people's perceptions of you is your livelihood. If people think you're a jerk or a cheater or something, they're not going to vote for you or they're not going to buy your CD or they're not going to see your movie or whatever.

But this isn't that sort of situation. Our perception of Brian Cushing doesn't really mean anything. If we, the fans, think he's a cheater, it doesn't matter. Because his job and his getting work depends on what the GMs, Coaches, and Owners think and in particular at the moment, what Rick Smith and Bob McNair think. As long as he plays well, there's going to be spot for him. He could even test positive again and there are teams out there that would be more than happy to pick him up if we cut him.

So, he doesn't have to come clean and make his case to us. He needs to come clean and make his case to the Texans. And if/when he reaches FA and this is still an issue, he'll need to come clean to any clubs that are interested in him.

If he wants to present his case to the fans, that's fine. But he doesn't need to do it. It's not going to change anything relevant.

thunderkyss
05-13-2010, 05:43 AM
Our perception of Brian Cushing doesn't really mean anything. If we, the fans, think he's a cheater, it doesn't matter.

So, he doesn't have to come clean and make his case to us.

If he wants to present his case to the fans, that's fine. But he doesn't need to do it. It's not going to change anything relevant.

I agree. Those who support him, will continue to support him. Those who don't, already think he is a liar and a cheat, so they won't believe anything he says anyway.

CloakNNNdagger
05-13-2010, 10:01 AM
This piece tries to offer possible reasons for the inordinate lag of sample to revelation.....most seems to be placed on the appeals process. LINK (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/13/understanding-the-lag-between-sample-collection-and-suspension/) It certainly appears that Cushing had substantial opportunity to present a full "legal" argument before final conclusions were made and consequence applied. Conclusions were not based on coin toss.

GP
05-13-2010, 10:25 AM
I agree. Those who support him, will continue to support him. Those who don't, already think he is a liar and a cheat, so they won't believe anything he says anyway.

Then there are those in the middle, like me.

I support him. But I have doubts as to what's true.

Only one man knows the complete truth, and it's Brian Cushing. Can I believe him? I don't know. Is it naive to believe him? Probably.

At this point, there's a lot being written (by fans AND sports writers) about him. I don't think he cares. I doubt we see him show contrition on any platform. And the media is going to be furious about that. Fans are going to be furious about that.

97% of the comments on the espn.com story are saying he should be locked up and tortured for taking steroids. It's amazing. The media has made people parrot so much, without the reader even remotely being an independent thinker. So it's easy to see what impact media has on us. It's heavy.

I like the various opinions I see hre, because it's a lot more diverse than what I am seeing elsewhere.

I support the guy, too. I haven't lost faith in him. There's a chance he took some stuff in the shadows (with even DeFranco not knowing about it) but there's a chance he didn't. He's missing our first 4 games, and that's the bulk of frustration.

eriadoc
05-13-2010, 10:27 AM
Personally, I'm siding with the most educated medical opinion on the forum. Y'all think what you want.

GP
05-13-2010, 10:40 AM
Personally, I'm siding with the most educated medical opinion on the forum. Y'all think what you want.

I hear you. CND has had some very objective and scientific information here.

That's what places me just off-center of "homer" on this situation. He failed a test, the cHG thingey is most likely a mask for coming off a cycle, as has been documented.

But I still have to find a way to trust that he'll come out of this thing a better person. I just don't want to see him fall into the sports media trap; trying to be the emotional, misty-eyed "I know I have a lot of growing up to do" act.

Talk about your tests you've passed, even since the positive test in September. Talk about your nutritional regimen and commitment to being first in the gym, last out of the gym. Go as far as you can go witout looking foolish or arrogant, then thank everyone and speak with your shoulder pads the next time you speak at all.

That's what I am hoping for.

Double Barrel
05-13-2010, 12:33 PM
Personally, I'm siding with the most educated medical opinion on the forum. Y'all think what you want.

This, coupled with the principle of Occam's razor, makes it a case of using logic over emotion-based reaction.

Cushing is our guy. I'll support him as a Texans fan. But I'm not going to wear blinders because I'm a Texans fan. It is what it is at the end of the day, regardless of personal opinions about the subject of drug testing or PEDs.

GP
05-13-2010, 12:39 PM
This, coupled with the principle of Occam's razor, makes it a case of using logic over emotion-based reaction.

Cushing is our guy. I'll support him as a Texans fan. But I'm not going to wear blinders because I'm a Texans fan. It is what it is at the end of the day, regardless of personal opinions about the subject of drug testing or PEDs.

I'm to the point of just having fun with it.

Anything else would be raising blood pressure levels, and trying to contain something that's beyond our control. Look at the Steelers. LOL.

Everybody takes a P.R. hit every now and then, even Bobby McNair's angelic franchise of do-good'ers.

Double Barrel
05-13-2010, 12:53 PM
I'm to the point of just having fun with it.

Anything else would be raising blood pressure levels, and trying to contain something that's beyond our control. Look at the Steelers. LOL.

Everybody takes a P.R. hit every now and then, even Bobby McNair's angelic franchise of do-good'ers.

yeah, I'm the same way. This stuff, including pro football itself, is merely entertainment and nothing more. :tv:

Your last point is interesting. I was chatting with a a buddy of mine last year after D.Rob's "pay me Rick" episode, and he said #23 would be "gone next year" (2010 off-season).

I chatted with him Saturday after the Cushing story broke, and he said the same thing. NOTHING is allowed to taint the image of the almighty corporate logo without repercussions. It is his belief that this is a fundamental policy of the great marketing machine known as the Houston Texans.

I don't agree/disagree with him at this point, but I wouldn't' be surprised if it happens in the 2011 off-season. I hope not, but it still wouldn't surprise me.

Seņor Stan
05-13-2010, 01:12 PM
yeah, I'm the same way. This stuff, including pro football itself, is merely entertainment and nothing more. :tv:

Your last point is interesting. I was chatting with a a buddy of mine last year after D.Rob's "pay me Rick" episode, and he said #23 would be "gone next year" (2010 off-season).

I chatted with him Saturday after the Cushing story broke, and he said the same thing. NOTHING is allowed to taint the image of the almighty corporate logo without repercussions. It is his belief that this is a fundamental policy of the great marketing machine known as the Houston Texans.

I don't agree/disagree with him at this point, but I wouldn't' be surprised if it happens in the 2011 off-season. I hope not, but it still wouldn't surprise me.


I don't think this is the case with Cushing. I just got an email from HoustonTexans.com advertising the Cushing Presser...

http://idevmail.americaneagle.com/UserFiles/houstontexans/image/cushing_stand22.jpg

arigold
05-13-2010, 01:28 PM
ouch:gun:

GP
05-13-2010, 01:41 PM
I chatted with him Saturday after the Cushing story broke, and he said the same thing. NOTHING is allowed to taint the image of the almighty corporate logo without repercussions. It is his belief that this is a fundamental policy of the great marketing machine known as the Houston Texans.

I don't agree/disagree with him at this point, but I wouldn't' be surprised if it happens in the 2011 off-season. I hope not, but it still wouldn't surprise me.

If that's the case, then fire Kubiak AND Smith for drafting him and wasting the 15th overall pick. Nobody should escape the reaper if that's going to happen.

They can salvage the situation, IMO. They have an obligation to try. If they stuck their neck out for David Carr and Dunta Robinson with roughly a total of $19 million or so, two guys who at various point had their poster-boy image exceeded by their medicore on-field contributions, then they better commit 2010 to letting Cushing play all year and show that he can pass tests.

I want this team to quit enabling losers who have less flavor than vanilla ice cream, and try to actually be MEN who can shape and guide the Cedric Bensons and other marginal-character guys who just want another shake at things. This Cake-In-A-Box, ready-made "instant" choir boy philosophy that the Texans P.R. machine is promoting is so flawed. Every person goes through ups and downs in life. How about the Texans just stop it already and try to be a hand that lifts somebody up, instead of appearing to be an exclusive club of the clean-and-tidy.

There goes my blood pressure levels again. Finding the humor in 3...2...1.....:clown:

beerlover
05-13-2010, 01:46 PM
personally to me this ranks right up there in Houston Texans history. Cushing has been nothing short of miraculous in his approach to becoming the best LB possible. he is a stand up guy, love his passion & aggression he brings to the game. it's been informative & educational to read along this thread to many expert opinions on enhancing substances (thank's to Cloak especially) but regardless of public opinion I remain in his corner & will continue to pull for Cush moving forward, lesson learned :texflag:

Ole Miss Texan
05-13-2010, 01:52 PM
I was chatting with a a buddy of mine last year after D.Rob's "pay me Rick" episode, and he said #23 would be "gone next year" (2010 off-season).

I chatted with him Saturday after the Cushing story broke, and he said the same thing. NOTHING is allowed to taint the image of the almighty corporate logo without repercussions. It is his belief that this is a fundamental policy of the great marketing machine known as the Houston Texans.
Except Cushing is actually good.

Double Barrel
05-13-2010, 03:36 PM
If that's the case, then fire Kubiak AND Smith for drafting him and wasting the 15th overall pick. Nobody should escape the reaper if that's going to happen.

They can salvage the situation, IMO. They have an obligation to try. If they stuck their neck out for David Carr and Dunta Robinson with roughly a total of $19 million or so, two guys who at various point had their poster-boy image exceeded by their medicore on-field contributions, then they better commit 2010 to letting Cushing play all year and show that he can pass tests.

I want this team to quit enabling losers who have less flavor than vanilla ice cream, and try to actually be MEN who can shape and guide the Cedric Bensons and other marginal-character guys who just want another shake at things. This Cake-In-A-Box, ready-made "instant" choir boy philosophy that the Texans P.R. machine is promoting is so flawed. Every person goes through ups and downs in life. How about the Texans just stop it already and try to be a hand that lifts somebody up, instead of appearing to be an exclusive club of the clean-and-tidy.

There goes my blood pressure levels again. Finding the humor in 3...2...1.....:clown:

My take is that if Cushing comes back this season and his level of play is as good or better than last year, all of this will blow over and he'll be Texan for awhile.

He's not a mouth like D.Rob was and his work ethic and leadership, not to mention his bone-crushing play, will keep the fans happy and this will probably keep the front office happy.

personally to me this ranks right up there in Houston Texans history. Cushing has been nothing short of miraculous in his approach to becoming the best LB possible. he is a stand up guy, love his passion & aggression he brings to the game. it's been informative & educational to read along this thread to many expert opinions on enhancing substances (thank's to Cloak especially) but regardless of public opinion I remain in his corner & will continue to pull for Cush moving forward, lesson learned :texflag:

I agree completely. Cushing is our beast! :kingkong:

Except Cushing is actually good.

lol! No doubt about that! :texflag:

GuerillaBlack
05-13-2010, 06:37 PM
When Cushing returns, I hope there are no boos from Texans fans. If TMAC can get cheers on his return this season, Cushing should, too.

Goldensilence
05-13-2010, 09:10 PM
When Cushing returns, I hope there are no boos from Texans fans. If TMAC can get cheers on his return this season, Cushing should, too.

I'm expecting a standing ovation.

Vinnie
05-13-2010, 09:12 PM
When Cushing returns, I hope there are no boos from Texans fans. If TMAC can get cheers on his return this season, Cushing should, too.

He will get a cheer from me, and I will be there. Come hell or high water. :d:

Kaiser Toro
05-13-2010, 09:17 PM
When Cushing returns, I hope there are no boos from Texans fans. If TMAC can get cheers on his return this season, Cushing should, too.

I expect a standing O

Texan_Bill
05-13-2010, 09:26 PM
I expect a standing O

A really enthusiastic standing O at that.

Kaiser Toro
05-13-2010, 09:30 PM
A really enthusiastic standing O at that.

I will be leading my section in that ovation.

At that point he will have done his time, and then he is one of ours until he loses the edge - whether that be in two years or ten. :texflag: