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View Full Version : Why mess with the D when we need an O???


texan_fan
03-05-2005, 10:16 PM
Greater minds than mine are at work here, I'm sure...but I have to ask: WHY are the Texans worrying about the defense when we need SO MUCH help on offense? The left side of the line is...weak...inconsistent... Surely addressing this issue is more important than anything? Can someone please explain this to me? I'm getting aggravated, here!

ThaShark316
03-05-2005, 10:19 PM
Greater minds than mine are at work here, I'm sure...but I have to ask: WHY are the Texans worrying about the defense when we need SO MUCH help on offense? The left side of the line is...weak...inconsistent... Surely addressing this issue is more important than anything? Can someone please explain this to me? I'm getting aggravated, here!


You Don't remember us NOT getting sacks last yr? The Line was learning a new system, they might snap out of it next season.

Besides, don't think CC and the rest of the Front Office aren't looking to get O-Line help.

texasguy346
03-05-2005, 10:30 PM
I think the left side of the line will improve next season. LG Pitts is solid, and he'll get better with more time in the new oline system. LT Wand has done well in what is essientially his rookie season, and he can only improve. McKinney is the weak link, and Wiegert could be upgraded, but he'll last till we get a young guy to replace him. Wade is solid at RT, and he'll be fine. The offense is fine, but it just need more consistent play from the OLine. We've got playmakers in place, and we just need the OLine to give them time to make plays.

The defense needs to get more pressure on the QB, and if they do we'll be in good shape.

rhc564
03-05-2005, 10:57 PM
I'm marking my calendar on this one to give me positive reading next
fall---too, anybody know when Carr's contract expires, just curious? :)

Hottoddie
03-05-2005, 11:18 PM
Greater minds than mine are at work here, I'm sure...but I have to ask: WHY are the Texans worrying about the defense when we need SO MUCH help on offense? The left side of the line is...weak...inconsistent... Surely addressing this issue is more important than anything? Can someone please explain this to me? I'm getting aggravated, here!

The O-Line just needs an upgrade at center & possibly RG, & some time to gel together.

NFL STATS (http://www.nfl.com/stats/2004/regular)

However, the defense was:

1) 23rd (out of 32) in total defense (341.1 ypg)
2) 24th in pass defense (225.9 ypg)
3) 13th in run defense (115.2 ypg)
4) 30th in receptions allowed (344)
5) 30th in receiving TD's allowed (32)
6) 16th in scoring defense (21.2 ppg)
7) 14th in defensive take aways (30)
8) 32nd in sacks (24)

Our offense was:

1) 19th in total offense (320.5 ypg)
2) 16th in time of possesion (29.59 mpg)
3) 18th in the passing game (202.9 ypg)
4) 12th in the rushing game (117.6 ypg)
5) 23rd in receptions (286) (New England was 20th)
6) 21st in scoring (19.3 ppg)
7) 22nd in turnovers (25) (New England was 19th)

By strengthening our defense, we'll be able to give the ball to the offense more, which will increase the time of possesion, passing yards, rushing yards, scoring, & total offense. Basically, it increases the opportunities we have to score & reduces the opportunities the enemy has to score.

You could argue that a strong offense is a good defense by keeping the other team off the field, but everyone knows that defense wins games & ultimately, Championships.

Blake
03-05-2005, 11:23 PM
You Don't remember us NOT getting sacks last yr? The Line was learning a new system, they might snap out of it next season.

I dont think the o-line learning a new zone blocking system has anything to do with pass blocking.

Vinny
03-05-2005, 11:47 PM
I dont think the o-line learning a new zone blocking system has anything to do with pass blocking.The thrust of the problem was that we had 3 of the 5 players at new positions and changed the blocking schemes. We had a project at Tackle and a guy who has never played Guard in his life starting right next to him with an underaverage Center on the other side. Weigert and Wade having injury problems didn't help matters any either.

Ibar_Harry
03-05-2005, 11:49 PM
Capers and company are comfortible with Defense. Its natural for them to migrate to what they are comfortible with. The offense will never amount to much, because their is no one in a leadership role whoe cares about it. That's my opinion and that's why I think the Texans will never make it to the playoffs with this coaching stafff. Everyone has excuses for the O-line and how it will be just fine next year. Sort of like the Cubs going to the World Series every Spring as Ernie Banks use to say.

texan_fan
03-05-2005, 11:50 PM
I think the left side of the line will improve next season. LG Pitts is solid, and he'll get better with more time in the new oline system. LT Wand has done well in what is essientially his rookie season, and he can only improve. McKinney is the weak link, and Wiegert could be upgraded, but he'll last till we get a young guy to replace him. Wade is solid at RT, and he'll be fine. The offense is fine, but it just need more consistent play from the OLine. We've got playmakers in place, and we just need the OLine to give them time to make plays.

The defense needs to get more pressure on the QB, and if they do we'll be in good shape.

Pitts is solid? Mr. OFFSIDES himself??? I don't know about that one...
How is McKinney the weak link? ( honestly want to know )

Vinny
03-05-2005, 11:53 PM
Pitts is solid? Mr. OFFSIDES himself??? I don't know about that one...
How is McKinney the weak link? ( honestly want to know )Pitts is a dominant run blocker but is mistake prone. He is pretty much the football version of being bi-polar in his play. He is a better Tackle than Guard at this point in his career but we shall see how much he has improved soon. He was playing a position he has never even sniffed before last year. McKinney is one of the two or thee worst starting centers in the NFL. He gets man handled against big bull rushing interior players and gets whipped at the point of attack way too often.

Blake
03-05-2005, 11:55 PM
Capers and company are comfortible with Defense. Its natural for them to migrate to what they are comfortible with. The offense will never amount to much, because their is no one in a leadership role whoe cares about it. That's my opinion and that's why I think the Texans will never make it to the playoffs with this coaching stafff. Everyone has excuses for the O-line and how it will be just fine next year. Sort of like the Cubs going to the World Series every Spring as Ernie Banks use to say.

Well I think the coaches are hoping for the offense to eventually gel, and work together as a unit, while they spend a few years building up the D. It would make no sense to build a great D first, and then pick a rookie QB, and then rookie WR, and expect them to contribute. Lets just hope the offense can show progress for the 4th straight year.

bckey
03-06-2005, 12:02 AM
The O-Line just needs an upgrade at center & possibly RG, & some time to gel together.

NFL STATS (http://www.nfl.com/stats/2004/regular)

However, the defense was:

1) 23rd (out of 32) in total defense (341.1 ypg)
2) 24th in pass defense (225.9 ypg)
3) 13th in run defense (115.2 ypg)
4) 30th in receptions allowed (344)
5) 30th in receiving TD's allowed (32)
6) 16th in scoring defense (21.2 ppg)
7) 14th in defensive take aways (30)
8) 32nd in sacks (24)

Our offense was:

1) 19th in total offense (320.5 ypg)
2) 16th in time of possesion (29.59 mpg)
3) 18th in the passing game (202.9 ypg)
4) 12th in the rushing game (117.6 ypg)
5) 23rd in receptions (286) (New England was 20th)
6) 21st in scoring (19.3 ppg)
7) 22nd in turnovers (25) (New England was 19th)

By strengthening our defense, we'll be able to give the ball to the offense more, which will increase the time of possesion, passing yards, rushing yards, scoring, & total offense. Basically, it increases the opportunities we have to score & reduces the opportunities the enemy has to score.

You could argue that a strong offense is a good defense by keeping the other team off the field, but everyone knows that defense wins games & ultimately, Championships.


What it doesn't show is that our ol allowed 49 sacks and hardly ever allowed Carr time to get off a decent throw.

So far we haven't strengthened our defense at all where it is needed. The dl.
Ray Lewis would have had a sub par year behind our dl last year.

We need ol and dl badly. I am more concerned with center and rg than Wand at lt.

Maybe Payne and Walker can come back and have monster years. It is a big risk to count on this these 2 to stay healthy and play up to their potential based on their past. I think Walker was just fat and happy last year with the big contract. It happens. Payne gave 100% of what he had. After receiving a good paycheck from the Texans the last 2 years Payne should be grateful he got the contract he did from the Texans. I think he will return the favor and play like a madman if he can stay healthy. Robaire should be improved with a year of the 3-4 under his belt.

Drafting an ol won't really help us this year. It is good for the future but we need a center that can pass block for us this year. Our top priority in fa this year should be to get Carr protected. Carr has taken a pounding for us for 3 years. Just my 2 cents.

Carr Bombed
03-06-2005, 12:19 AM
Capers and company are comfortible with Defense. Its natural for them to migrate to what they are comfortible with. The offense will never amount to much, because their is no one in a leadership role whoe cares about it. That's my opinion and that's why I think the Texans will never make it to the playoffs with this coaching stafff. Everyone has excuses for the O-line and how it will be just fine next year. Sort of like the Cubs going to the World Series every Spring as Ernie Banks use to say.

I'm sorry but I can't listen to this K--rap. If nobody cared about our offense then why did we spend our first 2 drafts strictly on offense. Why LAST year did we pay top dollar for a RT and pick up a TE in FA. We Have our youngest players playing on that side of the ball, thats the reason for the inconsistency. Also Carr has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he is comfortable with the leadership role. To say that this team or players doesn't care about the offensive side of the ball is just ignoring the facts. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will this team. We have had setbacks on that side of the ball that you can't put the blame on our coaches, such as Boseli and Joppru (whatever his name is). How about this for a challenge, go to at least 8 different message boards around the league and see how many woundn't want the great young talent that we are developing on that side of the ball.

beerlover
03-06-2005, 12:52 AM
As Cedric Benson once said it somewhere "Man you can't describe it". Evidently the Texans cannot exacute it (offensive line stability). We trusted they did all the right things, they signed quality free agents to get the team off the ground, two of which still start (McKinney & Weigert). Drafted a couple solid tackles, by the book in the latter rounds (Pitts-2nd rd, Wand-3rd rd) good. Then aquired a top notch RT in Todd Wade via free agency. So far everything seems to be going fairly well, good plan, exacuted with vision then the line coaching changes and the Texans move to a zone blocking system. Might as well go back to ground zero and start all over again.

In the meantime David Carr is no longer having a good time, he is frustrated & often anxious in the pocket and easily flushed, which is generally NOT part of the play as rehearsed in practice. He could probably describe it as high anxiety & not the unified calm that comes with an established, experienced line who understand each others roles, strengths & weakness. David & his line have to get to that point where they are always on the same page, if it comes from just playing together for a long period of time, better coaching, players, somehow it will resolve itself, years latter in our rocking chairs we'll look back & remember the sacrifices that made the rewards so sweet.

texasguy346
03-06-2005, 01:08 AM
Pitts is solid? Mr. OFFSIDES himself??? I don't know about that one...
How is McKinney the weak link? ( honestly want to know )

Vinny answered it pretty well, but I'll go ahead and add on a bit. Pitts has mental lapses, and that's something he really needs to work on. He's got great strength, and this was his first year at LG. I think he'll improve greatly at LG as he gets more and more time to get comfortable with the position. Wand is probably a little better run blocker too, but it ,too, was his first year starting. Essientially we had two rookies on the left side even though neither of them were technically rookies. They both can't help but get better with more experience. IMO it wasn't so much the edge where we were getting killed in the passing game; it was up the middle. Vinny pointed out that Weigert was hurt, and when you couple that with McKinney getting pushed back regularly by larger DTs you end up with a pocket collapsing up the middle. I really feel that we need to address the center position in the draft and get a good young guy to bring in slowly. It wouldn't hurt to have a good young guard too so we can get some good depth.

Ibar_Harry
03-06-2005, 02:02 AM
I'm sorry but I can't listen to this K--rap. If nobody cared about our offense then why did we spend our first 2 drafts strictly on offense. Why LAST year did we pay top dollar for a RT and pick up a TE in FA. We Have our youngest players playing on that side of the ball, thats the reason for the inconsistency. Also Carr has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he is comfortable with the leadership role. To say that this team or players doesn't care about the offensive side of the ball is just ignoring the facts. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will this team. We have had setbacks on that side of the ball that you can't put the blame on our coaches, such as Boseli and Joppru (whatever his name is). How about this for a challenge, go to at least 8 different message boards around the league and see how many woundn't want the great young talent that we are developing on that side of the ball.

Just read Vinny's comments on McKinny and look at the way the O-line has performed and its not too hard to understand. Yes, they certainly have picked up some excellent personnel for the offense, but they have not paid attention to the bread and butter which is the line. Without a line I don't care who the QB is or how great he is. He will get killed and your offense will go nowhere. I don't care who the receivers are, because the ball will never get to them. They are always worried about the defensive line, but they do not have the same focus on the offensive line. Wade is a run blocker and he was picked up for DD, not Carr. Now you can say if we could run the ball that would help Carr, but not when its pass protection time. Why has McKinny been able to continue to under perform at Center? As many have pointed out there is not a pocket for Carr. Would he step up into, I don't know because he's awfully gun shy. Now is defense important, most certainly. However, you can take it to an exteme. I think the Texans focus is on defense and will always be under Capers because that's what he's comfortible with. New England is focused on both with more emphasis on Defense than Offense. They do both very well and the coach understands both.

Vinny and you obviously must believe in this O-line and that they will improve enough this coming year. I just don't believe that is the case. I still say year 2's O-line outperformed year 3's even though it consisted mainly of the same people. The difference has supposidly been the blocking scheme. Well, I hope they get it straightened out other wise our QB's are going to be in the Hospital.

Near the end of the season there were comments attributed to Casserly, McNair, and Capers indicating they were going to fix the O-line problems. Yet, all you here is talk about the status QUO. So if we aren't going to fix the problem in FA are we going to use the draft. Everyone's talking about receivers and defensive players being drafted. Most say that if we draft an O-lineman he will take a year more to develop in all probability. That would probably mean we will not compete until 2006.

Were you honestly satisfied with the performance of last year's ball club? I think the Sharper situation speaks volumes about this ball club. I hope I'm wrong, but I have a gut feeling I'm not. You have a lot of money tied up in DC and AJ. However, without O-line protection you probably will never see their true potential. I will once again add that the injuries over the last two years have hurt this ball club badly. We need a number of people and I just don't believe we can get all we need from the draft. Therefore, I believe the 4 or 5 year plan is down the drain. Having said that where do you concentrate 1st in the draft, Defense or Offense. Defense is certainly the oldest, but defense right now is probably in better shape than the offense. Offensively our biggest problem is the Line. We will see next season whether this is Krap or not. Again, I hope the Texan's prove me wrong. It would be a lot of fun if they did. I'm certain I would never hear the end of it, but that's alright.

Vinny
03-06-2005, 02:11 AM
The bottom line is that the team has signed 4 of the 6 of their starting linemen (including TE) as Free Agents since we started this franchise. They took Tony Boselli to start the franchise on top of that but unfortunately his shoulder never healed. To say they haven't done anything is simply absurd, a distortion and simply untrue. You don't just throw out the players and start all over again every year. That is what losing teams do.

You are a broken record Ibar. Your stuff is kind of funny, but I will admit, consistant.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=2875&postcount=19 (may last year)

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?threadid=4330 (November last year)

Ibar_Harry
03-06-2005, 02:37 AM
Yes, Vinny I am a broken record just like you are on some issues. But that's because I truly believe what I'm saying. Its your right to say you disagree and Its my right to say I disagree. Our QB's have been right at the top of the list in being sacked. I think that is a disgrace and unless corrected could lead to the demise of our vaunted offense. Yes, Vinny I do believe it is the single most important reason we are not making greater progress as a team. As some pointed out earlier, our defense would be even better if we were able of hold on to the ball longer or score more often. I believe that too. This ball club could be one of the top clubs in the league if the O-line can ever get their act together. I should add in all fairness if the O-line coaching can get their act together, as well. Again the proof is in the pudding and we will see what happens all to soon. Good night and god bless you Vinny.

Vinny
03-06-2005, 02:38 AM
I'm not static on every issue and I don't distort reality to make my point. 4 years of reading the same post gets old though. Good night Ibar, sleep well.

Hottoddie
03-06-2005, 03:50 AM
Okay, for those that feel we should draft an O-Lineman with our 1st pick, name one in this year's draft that is worth the #13 pick. He'll have to be a can't miss prospect that starts the first day of the season & will make an immediate difference in our running & passing game.

Oh yeah, before you spout off that we can just trade down & get one, keep in mind that there are no clear cut top 15 picks in this draft & that most teams will be reluctant to trade up with you.

By the way, here's a little history for you. In the last 23 drafts, there have been:

CENTERS

8 taken in the 1st round (only 2 in the last 11 years)
23 taken in the 2nd round
21 taken in the 3rd round

1st round pick selections
1 w/the 14th pick (Steve Everitt)
1 w/the 18th pick (Brian Williams)
1 w/the 21st pick
2 w/the 23rd pick
1 w/the 25th pick
1 w/the 26th pick
1 w/the 28th pick


GUARDS

31 in the 1st round (10 of them in 2 of those years)
38 in the 2nd round
52 in the 3rd round

1st round pick selections
1 w/the 2nd pick (Bill Fralic "85")
1 w/the 6th pick ("86")
1 w/the 7th pick ("86")
2 w/the 8th pick (Dave Cadigan "88")(Mike Munchak "82")
2 w/the 9th pick ("86")(Bruce Matthews "83")
2 w/the 10th pick (Chris Naeole "97")(Eric Moore "88")
2 w/the 13th pick (Eugene Chung "92")("86")
1 w/the 14th pick
1 w/the 15th pick
3 w/the 17th pick
1 w/the 18th pick
3 w/the 19th pick
8 w/the 21st or later pick

TACKLES

72 in the 1st round
43 in the 2nd round
42 in the 3rd round

Keep in mind that these numbers are spread over 23 years worth of drafts. While it doesn't predict what will happen in this year's draft, it sure does give a strong indication of how teams value the 3 OL positions.

rhc564
03-06-2005, 05:41 AM
The thrust of the problem was that we had 3 of the 5 players at new positions and changed the blocking schemes. We had a project at Tackle and a guy who has never played Guard in his life starting right next to him with an underaverage Center on the other side. Weigert and Wade having injury problems didn't help matters any either.

...they had a bunch of new players on their line, too, even rookies--
their QB was almost player of the year and went to the pro bowl along
with a tight end who played basketball in college, not football-- what's
their secret? :hmmm:

rhc564
03-06-2005, 05:49 AM
I dont think the o-line learning a new zone blocking system has anything to do with pass blocking.

...several posters have pointed this out but the message is not getting
thru--one poster suggested they couldn't pass block because of all the
other distractions around them (i.e. new posisitions,blocking schemes)--
yea, thats gotta be it--so. this year will be different... :thumbup

Vinny
03-06-2005, 06:33 AM
I'm just backing out of this debate. I'm just going to end up hammering away. Nothing good is going to come of that.

nunusguy
03-06-2005, 06:34 AM
The season ended on a sour note (very sour), with the embarrasing loss
here at home to Cleveland and the last thing the owner said after that game
was that they were going to get DC some "better protection" because he would be the QB here for a long time. But it looks like that "better protection"
will be limited to upgrading McKinney and or/Weigert. Little surprised they didn't do something in FA in this area, but they seem to think the rest of the OL will improve enough thru last years experience.

Wolf
03-06-2005, 08:21 AM
the problem with the line is the middle..Sure the tackles are going to get beat at some point....but at times when they get beat ,Carr should be able to step up in to the pocket and gain a second or two..That doesn't happen..because McKinney is getting pushed around.(or should I say back)


And to say the Texans did nothing.. is farfetched

Wolf
03-06-2005, 08:24 AM
...they had a bunch of new players on their line, too, even rookies--
their QB was almost player of the year and went to the pro bowl along
with a tight end who played basketball in college, not football-- what's
their secret? :hmmm:

year before they were wanting ot kick their QB out .. we had a Basketball player for a TE and it didn't work out.

they are the flipside of us.

Number19
03-06-2005, 09:08 AM
Okay, for those that feel we should draft an O-Lineman with our 1st pick, name one in this year's draft that is worth the #13 pick...
Good post; thanks for the research.

There are some who are dissatisfied with LT and suggest this position could be addressed at #13. But those of us who believe the Texans' primary needs on the OL are Center and Right Guard do not suggest taking a player at #13. No one grades out that highly. What we do advocate is trading down, somewhere in the 20 range, perhaps slightly lower, and drafting David Baas. He has had an excellant Sr Bowl and Combine and seems to have moved ahead of Elton Brown for the number one ranking for OG's. For those who rank him at OC, he has the highest ranking at that position also. With your research, do you know of any player who has ranked that high at two different positions. In most of those past 23 drafts you sited, perhaps he would not have carried these top spot rankings, but would have still carried a solid ranking placing him towards the bottom of the first or top of the second. This is a player who likely is not HOF caliber, but is a Pro Bowl caliber talent. It would not be a reach to select him towards the bottom of the first.

Wolf
03-06-2005, 09:28 AM
one thing about mess with the "D" .. it needs to be messed with.Talenwise it was head and shoulders about the Offense..and me personally have been disappointed with the d after the initial season.. I felt bad for the defense then,because they shouldered the load.. Last season I was expecting more from them ...even with the injuries that we had. About Messing with the D and why it needs to be messed with.. When have our starters on the defensive side been "pushed" and had to fight for a starting job? Only position battle I can recall is Earl beating out Brown. .. DL has had the same starters.. Smith was signed and he immediately became a starter.. LB.. babins pretty much became instant starter.. CB..Daunte was immediate starter and we pushed Coleman to safety and he became the starter.

I am liking the forman/Sharper (sharper is my favorite on d) trade talk.. it means we are getting depth at positions finally

and now we need OL trade talk ! :heh: :jk:

Honoring Earl 34
03-06-2005, 09:59 AM
:hmmm: I think CC wants to draft Defense to have a balance of young talent . An OL does needs to gel to get better so maybe CC thinks they may have some talent . Carr + OL + Coaching = this performance . The best thing for Carr would be BJ Simmons lighting up NFL Europe .

beerlover
03-06-2005, 10:04 AM
maybe its simply the fact that the Texans are more defensivly inclined hence better drafting & developing the defense than the offense. Is not Cappers known as being a defensive coach? anyway if using the 13th pick could somehow solve the offensive woes don't you think it would be worth it? problem is the current regime does not create a vast sweeping bill of confidence with their offensive game planning or scheme little lone the offensive lines inability to protect a franchise QB.

so in reality the 13th pick would best be spent as a finishing touch to a young, talented & dynamic defense. David Baas will not be available when the Texans 2nd pick comes around & I don't see them trading up like they did last year for Babin (never know for sure) even in the 2nd round they will still choose defense, probably a DL like Luis Castillo. the 3rd round however will be key for the future replacements of McKinney & Weigert. this is where I'd bet money the Texans draft a OG or OC, remember we have two third rd picks. I would be happy if they went defense in the 1st two rounds and selected the best CB & DL then in round 3 went with the best Guard (Chris Kemoeatu OG Utah) & Center (Chris Spencer OC Mississippi).

nunusguy
03-06-2005, 10:31 AM
the problem with the line is the middle..Sure the tackles are going to get beat at some point....but at times when they get beat ,Carr should be able to step up in to the pocket and gain a second or two..That doesn't happen..because McKinney is getting pushed around.(or should I say back)
And to say the Texans did nothing.. is farfetched
"A" problem was with McKinney and to a lessor extent Weigert, but we can get topline centers & gurads in the 2nd if not 3rd and 4th rounds of the Draft. For some reason many people on this Board are enamored with Bass - he would be a good choice, but if he's not there there's other players we can pick to upgrade McKinney & Weigert. But the key to pass protection is the weak side tackle, and to suggest that Seth Wand wasn't "a" problem in this area on numerous occasions last year is to ignore why pass protection
broke down on many occasions in many games. But unlike McKinney and Weigert, he's just starting out in the NFL, is much younger, and obviously
has a great deal of potential to improve - atleast the management has expressed this view many times. But he needs to play had a higher level
this year or we still have "a" problem on DCs blind side.

Honoring Earl 34
03-06-2005, 10:42 AM
:thumbup Wand and McKinney need to go to Jose Canseco's gymm . In two months they'll look like Tony Mandrich .

bckey
03-06-2005, 10:56 AM
I don't know why people keep thinking we are going to fix the problem at center and rg through the draft. Rookie ol need time to develop. It will be just like last year if we throw a rookie in at center. I agree with drafting ol but not in the first round and not to be a full time starter this year. Free agency is the only way we can fix the problem at center immediately. Someone else will have to post what centers are available. I don't think that there is an abundance of them and maybe not even one that would upgrade our line at that position. We may have to sign a guard and make someone learn the center position.

Number19
03-06-2005, 11:07 AM
..For some reason many people on this Board are enamored with Bass - he would be a good choice, but if he's not there there's other players we can pick to upgrade McKinney & Weigert...
Athetically, Baas may be one level below the top level. This is why he should be rated toward the bottom of the first rather than the top. But Baas also has that blue-collar work ethic that makes him as close to a sure thing as you are likely to get, other than an elite talent. The further down the draft board you go, say third round or below, the more the likelyhood the player will be a marginal talent, if not an outright bust. Also this - Baas has the talent to push for a starting spot as a rookie - an instant upgrade over last season. Excepting injury, anyone taken in the third round will be hard pressed to beat out the established veterine and probably won't seriously contend for the starting spot until 2006 at the vary soonest and maybe not until 2007.

Drafting Baas gives us the second best chance of improving our OL this next season (first is simply another training camp for the OL to "come together").

Honoring Earl 34
03-06-2005, 11:12 AM
:hmmm: We have used a 2nd and two 3rd picks on the OL . They are still learning . To say that drafting ( you name the player ) is an improvement on the OL is 50/50 at best .

nunusguy
03-06-2005, 11:30 AM
I don't know why people keep thinking we are going to fix the problem at center and rg through the draft.
It's not that unusual for rookie OL to succeed as starters their first year in the NFL - except for the weak side Tackle. This position is at a > degree of
difficulty than all the other OL positions and therefor it's harder to find a player who has the potential to play the position - and then it takes time for him to get up to speed. Case in point is Jordan Gross, the top OL taken in the
2003 draft(he was like 8 or 9 overall) by Carolina. They didn't throw him into LT right away so he played RT last year as a rookie and played it well. This year they moved him to LT and reportedly is struggling and they are not sure
if he's gonna make at the all important LT slot.
Of course playing QB in the NFL is the most demanding position, but after that
LT and CB are probably the toughest and most demanding positions on the field.

MIGHTYTEX
03-06-2005, 11:38 AM
I feel the MAIN reason we are working on D is cause one of the most offensively powered teams in the NFL is in our division. Plus the blue print was laid out on how to win Championships over the last 5 or so years and that is DEFENSE. The Ravens, Pats and Bucs won the super bowl with an average offense but had Great D's.

rhc564
03-06-2005, 12:18 PM
I feel the MAIN reason we are working on D is cause one of the most offensively powered teams in the NFL is in our division. Plus the blue print was laid out on how to win Championships over the last 5 or so years and that is DEFENSE. The Ravens, Pats and Bucs won the super bowl with an average offense but had Great D's.

The Pats are focused on both sides of the ball and that is why they are
a dynasty---

Total Offense/NFL-- 7th
Scoring Offense/NFL-- 4th

I don't think these results are average!

Total Defense/NFL-- 9th
Scoring Defense/NFL-- 2nd :heh:

Marcus
03-06-2005, 12:26 PM
You have three basic choices for improving the line in 2005 . . . and two of those three are bad.

A) Sign a free agent OL?

Bad choice. The only available free agent OL's that would significantly improve that position on the line for next year, were either franchised by their own teams, or way too overpriced for their particular talent level.

B) Draft an offensive linemen?

Bad choice. Even if you chose Alex Barron, or Jammal Brown with the 13th pick, and even if they were worth going that high, (which they are not) they would be drafted for LT to replace Wand, which is not the weakness on the line. It is the interior linemen (McKinney and Weigart) that were the weak links. But the bottom line is . . . injecting a rookie or rookies into the line, no matter good they are, will NOT improve the line in the short term. Drafting centers or guards in the 2nd and 3rd rounds are developmental picks only, projected to be, at best, backups for depth while learning the ropes.

C) Keep the line the way it is.

While holding your nose, accept the fact that is the only good choice. Wand, Pitts, McKinney, Weigart, and Wade only played together as a unit for only one season while learning a new blocking scheme. If you take away the Cleveland game, the line slowly improved their play as the season went along. But by come out flat against Cleveland in the last game, the OL has left us with impression that we don't see the likelyhood for improvement. But I think that Casserly and Capers have reasoned that, instead of banging their shins, and throwing everything out, they feel that keeping the same unit together and allow them more time to jell as a unit is the best thing to do. Capers himself said on the radio that 'quarterback sacks allowed' was the only statistic on offense that was worse then the year before. so I expect that the pass protection area will be a focus during the camps.

BTW, here's something for Ibar and the rest of the negative nellies to chew on. As controversial as the offensive line was last season . . . bear in mind that Wand, Pitts, McKinney, Weigart, and Wade, for the most part, were able play together, relatively speaking, without any serious injuries last season. That was an aberration. Don't expect that kind of luck to hold.

rhc564
03-06-2005, 01:02 PM
...just don't tell Carr! :heh:

TexanExile
03-06-2005, 01:08 PM
Heh...I think all three choices are bad. Can I pick "none of the above?" :)

Unfortunately I agree that there's nobody in FA left now who's worth signing. I'm concerned about McKinney but I also believe that Wand is a serious liability--he was labeled a "project" from the day he arrived and I'm not sure when that "project" will be finished. How long can a contending NFL franchise go with a weakness like that at LT?

As for the draft, that's also true. Good reputations don't = immediate success. Vernon Carey was an example of that last year, and there are many others around the NFL.

So I agree that the best option at this point is, sadly, to sit tight and pray that familiarity and time-in-position will lead to some sort of improvement. It bugs me, but the long-term damage that could be done by signing another "maybe" in FA--or by burning a draft pick Houston needs to use somewhere else--is worse. Drafting in later rounds for depth, of course, is another story.

Hottoddie
03-06-2005, 01:22 PM
Baas is not the best center prospect in the draft. He's the best guard prospect, with the tools to be one of the best center prospects.

Chris Spencer is considered by many NFL scouts to be the best center prospect in the draft. According to Len Pasquarelli at ESPN, one AFC regional scout (could he be from the Texans?) stated that Spencer could be one of the best centers to come into the league in the past 25 years.

ESPN Article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1998936)

Jason Brown, who began his college career at tackle and moved inside to the hub in his second season with the Tar Heels, hasn't allowed a sack since his sophomore campaign. He is bright, competitive, has terrific recognition skills and, at 6-feet-2 3/8 and 310 pounds, possesses excellent size for the position. Watch him on tape, against even the premier defensive tackles in the ACC, and his opponents rarely penetrate into the backfield.

Amazingly, he might not even be the top center prospect.

Scouts spoke Thursday of Brown, who has slimmed down considerably since playing at an ungainly 336 pounds in 2003, in glowing terms. But they lavished praise on Chris Spencer of Mississippi, who appeared legitimately taken aback when apprised of some of their comments. One regional scout from an AFC franchise suggested Spencer could be one of the best centers to come into the league in the last 25 years.

Among the other names to watch: David Baas (Michigan), Ben Wilkerson (LSU), Junius Coston (North Carolina A&T) and Vince Carter (Oklahoma).

Hottoddie
03-06-2005, 01:30 PM
And to further reenforce my point.

NFL DRAFT COUNTDOWN (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/combine/review.html)

Centers

The center position is as strong as it has been in years and pro personnel people came away very impressed with this group. The talented but troubled Richie Incognito of Nebraska (pictured right) was having a tremendous week before injuring his knee in drills. He had an MRI and the results came back negative, but the extent of the injury is still unknown leaving his status a bit up in the air. David Baas of Michigan continues to impress and showed off good strength and speed, possibly ensuring a 2nd round grade. One of the top sleepers in the Draft had a nice performance as well with Rob Hunt of North Dakota St. impressing. Perhaps the top player at the position though is Chris Spencer of Ole Miss, who did nothing but solidify his lofty grade. Ben Wilkerson of L.S.U. is still rehabbing his injury and will workout at a later date.

Marcus
03-06-2005, 01:38 PM
...but I also believe that Wand is a serious liability--he was labeled a "project" from the day he arrived and I'm not sure when that "project" will be finished. How long can a contending NFL franchise go with a weakness like that at LT?

The difference between Wand and McKinney is rather stark.

Wand, playing one season at LT, is expected to only get better as he gets experience, and then you have highly paid Steve "we have one of the top 10 lines in the league" McKinney with years of experience, and is only going to get worse as his arrogance grows?

Sorry. To me, it's a no brainer.

bckey
03-06-2005, 01:47 PM
The difference between Wand and McKinney is rather stark.

Wand, playing one season at LT, is expected to only get better as he gets experience, and then you have highly paid Steve "we have one of the top 10 lines in the league" McKinney with years of experience, and is only going to get worse as his arrogance grows?

Sorry. To me, it's a no brainer.

I agree. I did like Pitts at lt better though.

Honoring Earl 34
03-06-2005, 02:03 PM
:thumbup I think the maturation of an NFL player is hitting the weights . I bet Wand was'nt exposed to a 1st class weight program in college . As he and Pitts get stronger they'll get more confidence . I have less a problem with them because they have some upside .

Number19
03-06-2005, 03:00 PM
Baas is not the best center prospect in the draft. He's the best guard prospect, with the tools to be one of the best center prospects.

Chris Spencer is considered by many NFL scouts to be the best center prospect in the draft...
I won't disagree, totally, with your assessment. It's something I go back and forth on. Both Baas and Spencer have started only one season at OC. Spencer also played OG his sophmore season (he declared as a junior). Most of the rankings place Baas at OG and this is what the evaluations are based on. I've seen only a couple with Baas listed at center and he was ranked number one. On all the measurables, Baas has better numbers than Spencer, but the one area where I have not seen an evaluation is his ability to snap the ball cleanly in the exchange and then that quick burst out of his stance to position himself for the block. If he is able to do this efficently, then Baas has the potential to be something special as a center. But it is this versitility which makes him my unequivacal choice as our first pick.

keyfro
03-06-2005, 03:22 PM
as of right now i only see two of our lineman as undoubted starters...pitts and wade...if you noticed the majority of our rushing td's in the second half of the season came from behind pitts...wade is about as solid of a RT as you can find in the NFL today...mckinney is average at best in the center position, weigert is hurt constantly it seems and seems to get beat by a decent pass rushing DT half the time, and wand...i'm sorry this guy should not be a starting left tackle in the nfl...a starting left tackle shouldn't need a tight end to help him on pass protection...if you line up a DE with 4.7 speed or lower against wand carr is sacked...now do i think drafting barron is a good idea for this season no...i think no matter what barron would need about a season to really be able to take over the LT position fully...so in the long haul it would be a good pick but not this year...personally i'd rather wait and see how eric winston of miami comes back and target him next year...unfortunately there is no free agent LT out there...we're kinda stuck with what we have...and the coaching staff needs to find more ways to protect carr whether that's having a back chip block on wand's side or just having bruener there to help him

powda
03-06-2005, 05:15 PM
this has been an enjoyable thread to read though disillusioned from time to time.

for those of you critical of the coaching staff for not paying enough attention to our ol personel let me refresh your memory :

boselli, ryan young, steve mckinney, zach weigert,and todd wade were all overpriced vetran aquisitions who have yet to live up to their billing as quality linemen. something else to note is all of these players were effected in one way or another by injuries.

in the draft we selected chester pitts in the 2nd, and wand and weary (bust) in the 3rd.

dont be critical that we didnt target offensive linemen. instead ask, why didnt the coaches address freeny and give wand some help with a tightend or a fullback? ask why mckinney has been allowed to corrupt our interior line (a direct impact on both guard postions) for 3 years? ask why we dont use screens more often to ease the blitz? and lastly, i think theres a place for the deep threat...i like it because it softens the defense...but you have to pick your spots. when carr has 2 1/2 seconds to throw the ball throughout the game our recievers shouldnt even be running intermediate routes...let alone 40 yards downfield. wheres the slant? aj had success with the hitch route for a portion of the season but we got away from it. mix in a screen and keep the 3 step drops until the line can prove some consistency. otherwise, the face of our franchise will not live to sign his next contract.

in fairness to the line we didnt just change to a zone blocking scheme ( i know, i know, you'll tell me that has no effect on the pass protection ),but we also had a new line coach (pendry).

- i think the infatuation with baas is also due to the fact that he can play center and guard. if we draft him he'll find a place in our starting rotation faster because of it.

as for the defense......what happened to the blitz happy capers? what changed so drastically from our inagrual year?

2003 = 17 players on injured reserve...thats not even counting the players who missed ample time but werent placed on the ir. YOU CANT HAVE AN EFFECTIVE, CONSISTENT BLITZ WITHOUT THE PROPER PERSONEL.

2004? -glenn (ageing and still recovering from the previous years injury) -robinson (rookie) -coleman (transition to free safety for the first time since his failed experiment with the jets...and later injured) -brown (puke!) -earl (rookie recovering from a collegiate injury)

whats the point of this? when you blitz linebackers and they dont get there fast enough you leave huge patches of green for recievers. our secondary was a monumental question mark at the time and the coaches felt safer sending linbackers into coverage to ease the burden on our secondary. to aggrivate the problem more we had foreman as one of those backers dropping into coverage...he was abused several times over. our line got very little pressure on its own ( walker underperformed, payne was recovering, and robarie was new to the postion---though he came alive in the last quarter of the season ).

the secondary will be signifigantly better then last year (glenn dont prove me wrong!). with greenwood we just aquired a true coverage backer with ample speed. babin and peek should be better. the dl has me concerned but i see no "quick fix solution" to that problem. with better play from both the secondary and the linebackers i dont see the dl being exposed as much as last year.

what i do see is the texans D loading up for a blitz happy year again. its not nearly as bad as some of you guys think it is. every year we've improved and that trend will continue. stop tieing those knots and put the razors away.

Honoring Earl 34
03-06-2005, 05:35 PM
:heh: I for one am not infatuated with Baas , I'm infatuated with Eva Longoria . Wade had a high ankle sprain last year . That takes at least a month to get back to 100 % . I believe all we can ask for is more young talent through the draft and some patience .

TexanExile
03-06-2005, 06:31 PM
The difference between Wand and McKinney is rather stark.

Wand, playing one season at LT, is expected to only get better as he gets experience, and then you have highly paid Steve "we have one of the top 10 lines in the league" McKinney with years of experience, and is only going to get worse as his arrogance grows?

Sorry. To me, it's a no brainer.

Definitely a good point. But my concern isn't who's better based on how long they've been doing it...it's more about which one actually hurts Houston more by being subpar. Is it more important right now to find a better center or a better LT? Even though I think there's not much out there in the way of "better" available LTs, I do think Wand is the bigger liability.

TexanFanInCC
03-07-2005, 01:05 AM
Greater minds than mine are at work here, I'm sure...but I have to ask: WHY are the Texans worrying about the defense when we need SO MUCH help on offense? The left side of the line is...weak...inconsistent... Surely addressing this issue is more important than anything? Can someone please explain this to me? I'm getting aggravated, here!

defense wins games. thats why baltimore won the super bowl a few years ago...and tampa bay. if our defense is better, then our offense will definitely score more points bc of the extra time they will have per game. however, i do think we need to address the pass protection desperately. if carr can get the time, then we will be a probowler. our offense was pretty good last yr considering how the defense was on the field for a long time each game.

MIGHTYTEX
03-07-2005, 06:13 PM
The Pats are focused on both sides of the ball and that is why they are
a dynasty---

Total Offense/NFL-- 7th
Scoring Offense/NFL-- 4th

I don't think these results are average!

Total Defense/NFL-- 9th
Scoring Defense/NFL-- 2nd :heh:


Those were the Pats stats last year look at their first SB and you'll see what I mean.

rhc564
03-07-2005, 07:29 PM
Those were the Pats stats last year look at their first SB and you'll see what I mean.

See what you mean? They had a newbie starting QB in that 1st winning SB
but who CARES??? They not only got to the big game, they won it---now,
they've won 3 out of the last 4--- believe me, the Pats win 'anyway they
can.' BB is a defensive minded coach who made the transisition from DC to
HC and his teams are coached to win, regardless of what side of the ball
it is or who the players are-- his thinking and success with it are going to
change the minds of many coaches, only leaving behind the 'old school'
coaches who still believe 'we can't do this or that because we don't have
this or that.' :woot

MIGHTYTEX
03-07-2005, 08:51 PM
See what you mean? They had a newbie starting QB in that 1st winning SB
but who CARES??? They not only got to the big game, they won it---now,
they've won 3 out of the last 4--- believe me, the Pats win 'anyway they
can.' BB is a defensive minded coach who made the transisition from DC to
HC and his teams are coached to win, regardless of what side of the ball
it is or who the players are-- his thinking and success with it are going to
change the minds of many coaches, only leaving behind the 'old school'
coaches who still believe 'we can't do this or that because we don't have
this or that.' :woot

It seems to me that your post suggest that its Dom Capers is who has the problems not the O or the D.