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View Full Version : Where does Okoye stand right now?


m5kwatts
01-26-2010, 12:23 AM
First please note, this is NOT a "lets mindlessly bash Okoye" thread

Also please note, this is NOT an "I'm smarter than Rick Smith because I would have drafted Patrick Willis or Darrelle Revis" thread either

The purpose of this thread is to examine Okoye's status with the Texans right now and how his situation is approached going forward.

I think the Okoye discussion should start with his contract. It would help to have the specifics of it but I do know 1st round rookie contract money is always heavily backloaded and there's big bonuses on the back half. Typically a player's status is clear by their 3rd season in the league (excluding some positions like QB) which makes it easier to decide on those bonuses/cap numbers but Okoye's status is anything but clear.

His age (22) certainly complicates things, as he's the same age or younger than some of the DT prospects coming out in the draft this year. His tape from year-to-year looks like a different player almost. His rookie year he was surprisingly solid, his second year was surprisingly lackluster and his third year wasn't noteworthy excluding a few stretches of play where he looked like he did his rookie year.

There's going to come a point (as with all NFL players) where his contract will dictate the direction the Texans go as far as his future here. His snaps were reduced pretty significantly towards the end of the season to the point where he wasn't seen on 1st and 2nd down and when he was on the field he didn't look comfortable in his role. There was no clear explanation from the coaches as to why this was, but we can infer that it was tied to poor performance.

So what was said to Okoye in his exit interview? Was he told that he'll see more of the same (limited) playing time if he continues to underperform? Was he even told that he is in fact underperforming? Was he told that next year is the final year to prove himself as a player in the NFL?

My opinion on Okoye is that while he's still unproven and is underperforming, there are skills/tools in his repertoire that can help this team and he is a fit on our interior defensive line when he is right and is penetrating into the backfield. The problem is this does not happen nearly enough, and sooner (training camp 2010) or later (2011 offseason) a tough decision will have to be made to trade/release him if the money doesn't equal the results on the field.

Goatcheese
01-26-2010, 01:05 AM
I'm not sure where you got that impression about his playing time. He saw a reduced role in the second half, but still played the vast majority of the snaps.

Game snaps taken/possible snaps - sat out
1 59/80 - 21
2 50/65 - 15
3 51/64 - 13
4 50/61 - 11
5 55/60 - 5
6 54/58 - 4
7 53/62 - 9
8 42/45 - 3
9 59/81 - 22
10 60/70 - 10
11 45/67 - 22
12 51/70 - 19
13 55/69 - 14
14 47/60 - 13
15 63/80 - 17
16 46/64 - 18

I thought he showed some flashes early in the season, and at times seemed like he was getting things figured out. At one point he was on pace for 6.5 sacks, 26 QB Pressures, and 35 stops; then after week 5 he just seemed to disappear. He was practically invisible in the pass rush from Cinci in week 6 until his 7 QB pressure game against Miami in week 16.

I'd say it was a valuable year in his development, and for a 22 year old, it was a decent performance. He showed some ability against the run that we haven't seen in the past, and seemed to anchor better against the double team.

Okoye isn't making that much, and he will probably get the full length of his contract to figure things out. Almost all of his contract was guaranteed, and his base salary is pretty much league minimum.

Amobi Okoye Defensive Lineman 7/26/2007: Signed a six-year, $15.4 million contract. The deal contains $12.785 million guaranteed. Another $2.3 million is available through incentives, including a fifth-year escalator of $2.2 million. 2009: $630,000, 2010: $765,000, 2011: $850,000, 2012: $665,000 (Voidable Year), 2013: Free Agent

nero THE zero
01-26-2010, 09:28 AM
What we see from Okoye is what we're going to get. He's a mediocre rotation player. I'm not opposed to carrying him on the roster as a 4th DT kind of guy, but the automatic starter status he has right now has to go.

Ole Miss Texan
01-26-2010, 10:27 AM
He was a top 10 pick based on his upside/potential. We selected him because of that upside, the need of a DT and more importantly, the need to beef up the players next to Mario. You have to let the #1 overall pick have every opportunity to excel.

Now add in the belief that a Defensive Lineman typically takes 3 years to get acclimated to the NFL and the fact that Amobi was the youngest player to take an NFL snap in over 40 years. I think we all want him to be producing... and quite frankly he should be expected to. No way should he get a free pass.

At this point in time, we can't afford to cut him. We don't have the depth right now to fill the void of his departure. Additionally, for financial reasons, we really don't gain anything out of it. He's not a troublemaker or cancer in the locker room, doesn't have bad work ethic that I know of... so all signs point to coach the hell out of him.

As you mentioned, he's about the same age as most of these DT's in the draft. He's ahead of the curve though because he's already got 3 years of nfl experience, solid starting experience at that. I think we just need to keep adding some quality players through the draft and FA. Keep our DL fresh by rotating them consistently and let them play at 100%. One might say I've got battle red glasses on but I think he's right on the verge of fulfilling his potential. The next few years is when we really see the early investment pay off. And if in 3 years, it still hasn't... then he doesn't get a contract like he's performed.... he get's offered one that fits what his role will be.

I still think he can be a HUGE part of our team and can live up to his draft selection.

Hagar
01-26-2010, 11:52 AM
Bust. Been saying it for a while now.

Okoye's biggest problem is in run defense. He usually gets blown off the ball and ends up 3 yards back off the line of scrimmage.

D-ReK
01-26-2010, 12:41 PM
First please note, this is NOT a "lets mindlessly bash Okoye" thread

Also please note, this is NOT an "I'm smarter than Rick Smith because I would have drafted Patrick Willis or Darrelle Revis" thread either

The purpose of this thread is to examine Okoye's status with the Texans right now and how his situation is approached going forward.

I think the Okoye discussion should start with his contract. It would help to have the specifics of it but I do know 1st round rookie contract money is always heavily backloaded and there's big bonuses on the back half. Typically a player's status is clear by their 3rd season in the league (excluding some positions like QB) which makes it easier to decide on those bonuses/cap numbers but Okoye's status is anything but clear.

His age (22) certainly complicates things, as he's the same age or younger than some of the DT prospects coming out in the draft this year. His tape from year-to-year looks like a different player almost. His rookie year he was surprisingly solid, his second year was surprisingly lackluster and his third year wasn't noteworthy excluding a few stretches of play where he looked like he did his rookie year.

There's going to come a point (as with all NFL players) where his contract will dictate the direction the Texans go as far as his future here. His snaps were reduced pretty significantly towards the end of the season to the point where he wasn't seen on 1st and 2nd down and when he was on the field he didn't look comfortable in his role. There was no clear explanation from the coaches as to why this was, but we can infer that it was tied to poor performance.

So what was said to Okoye in his exit interview? Was he told that he'll see more of the same (limited) playing time if he continues to underperform? Was he even told that he is in fact underperforming? Was he told that next year is the final year to prove himself as a player in the NFL?

My opinion on Okoye is that while he's still unproven and is underperforming, there are skills/tools in his repertoire that can help this team and he is a fit on our interior defensive line when he is right and is penetrating into the backfield. The problem is this does not happen nearly enough, and sooner (training camp 2010) or later (2011 offseason) a tough decision will have to be made to trade/release him if the money doesn't equal the results on the field.

Regarding Amobi's contract, from Rotoworld (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=nfl&id=4174),

7/26/2007: Signed a six-year, $15.4 million contract. The deal contains $12.785 million guaranteed. Another $2.3 million is available through incentives, including a fifth-year escalator of $2.2 million. 2009: $630,000, 2010: $765,000, 2011: $850,000, 2012: $665,000 (Voidable Year), 2013: Free Agent

So his contract isn't really problematic. He will in all likelihood play out his contract here, barring a trade, since his contract is that manageable.

His age is definitely what muddles the situation, because if he were a typical 3 year vet, I would not hesitate to label him a bust. However, at 22 he is still growing and should be getting much stronger. He has gained about 15 pounds since entering the league if you compare his combine weight to his current weight at NFL.com.

Because of this, I have actually been wondering if he might grow into a decent NT for us. I know his game is supposed to be getting sacks and hurries, but he hasn't been overly effective in that role. Maybe with a couple more years of bulk, he will stop getting blown off the ball and become more stout in run defense. Who knows? I'm still wondering why he was so great in his first few games and hasn't played as well since.

Hervoyel
01-26-2010, 02:17 PM
There's no good reason to cut him and I don't even see why you bother to trade him at this point unless Charlie Casserly or Matt Millen get another NFL job and come calling with stupid compensation. Okoye is semi-quality depth and every team needs that. He's not a starter, he's not even the first guy off the bench but he's going to be cheap next year and he knows the system.

We still need a starting DT but that has nothing to do with Amobi Okoye at this point in time. You sign or draft a guy and give that player every chance to beat out Okoye. If he's even got a pulse that shouldn't be a problem. Then you let Okoye try and earn time and his next contract if he can (he can't). If you like him better than any of the other tomato cans out there then maybe you give him a minimum offer to be your "somewhere towards the bottom" DT but even then don't expect him to be back in 2011. Somebody somewhere will think they can motivate this kid and develop him or do something we didn't (hell maybe they can) and he'll be gone.

steelbtexan
01-26-2010, 02:41 PM
The problem with drafting a 19 yr old kid is he may be good when he's 25 but he probably wont be on your team. The Texans went through all of AO's growing pains and some other team will reap the benefits. This is the catch 22 of this situation.

It is also the reason a rebuilding team should never spend a top 10 pick on a 19 yr old kid.

TexCanada
01-26-2010, 02:58 PM
I still think its too early to give up on AO. At 22 years old, his body is just maturing to the level that most are at in their first year. It is extremely difficult when you are a boy playing amongst men. I think we will really start to see some positive development in the next year.

steelbtexan
01-26-2010, 03:14 PM
I still think its too early to give up on AO. At 22 years old, his body is just maturing to the level that most are at in their first year. It is extremely difficult when you are a boy playing amongst men. I think we will really start to see some positive development in the next year.

Hopefully we will se improvement.

But I hope he doesn't decide to spend anothe offseason in Nigeria doing whatever it was that he did after his rookie year.

He needs to be here in the offseason doing whatever it takes to perfect his craft.

The reason he's able to go galavanting around the globe is because of the $ he gets paid for playing football. He needs to realize this and put all of his efforts into becoming a better football player.

He is bordering on bust material right now. IMO

dinkatoid
01-26-2010, 03:26 PM
I still think its too early to give up on AO. At 22 years old, his body is just maturing to the level that most are at in their first year. It is extremely difficult when you are a boy playing amongst men. I think we will really start to see some positive development in the next year.

This is what I was wondering about. I constantly hear people say that a rookie needs to bulk up a bit. I assume this not only means they need to work at it (because the NFL is a different beast than college is), but also that they are getting older and their bodies are maturing into a frame that is more capable of putting on that bulk.

It was pretty clear that AO was a project, he may have had a harder time keeping up purely due to age. Now that we have 3 years of coaching into him, maybe once his body matures a bit, he will turn out to be a bit more effective.

HoustonFrog
01-26-2010, 03:36 PM
Where does he stand?

On the sidelines with his hands on his hips:cutthroat:

ChampionTexan
01-26-2010, 03:46 PM
I think Haynesworth is an example of why we shouldn't eliminate the possibility that Okoye has yet to approach his ceiling, and in fact it's possible (not saying likely) that it could still be a pretty high one.

Haynesworth was 20 years old when drafted, and 21 years old when his rookie season started. He was listed at 320 lbs. at the draft, and is now listed at a playing weight of 350 (and he's probably more). After four seasons, he was known around the league as the guy who stomped on Andre Gurode's face, and little else. Now he's the "$100,000,000" man.

That's one end of the spectrum, and while it's improbable that Amobi becomes what Phat Albert is now (when healthy and motivated), it's also kind of short-sighted if you assume that he's topped out, or try to predict how much further he's capable of growing.

Right now, Amobi's a slightly better version of Travis Johnson (and Travis Johnson still has a job in the NFL). Given the incremental cost and risk (or lack thereof), to keep him around, I think it's going to be interesting to see where he is after his fourth and fifth years in the league.

imatexan
01-26-2010, 04:02 PM
Not a bust yet.

He was still the youngest player to ever be drafted in the NFL.

I think that he is still adjusting to the NFL and will become a quality starter next year.

I do not think that he is going to be great but better than he was this year.

Hervoyel
01-26-2010, 04:08 PM
Every year it's possible that the incredible upside we all hoped for could appear. Every year there are at least somewhat valid reasons why it hasn't shown up yet. The problem is that damned rookie contract will run out before we run out of excuses for why he hasn't become any kind of force at all on the line.

The Texans will have to decide whether to sign him and they won't be doing it in a vacuum. They'll be doing it with some dumbass GM out there from another team willing to offer Okoye money (maybe not top-ten pick money but good money) on the same slight chance that he's going to turn the corner that we're talking about. I don't know how you look at his body of work and say "Yeah, ok. Sign me up for 3-4 more years of that" and I damn sure don't know how you face the fans and your peers if you do take that chance and Amobi Okoye ain't got nothing more to show you than what you've already seen. How do you keep your job making decisions like that?

It's going to be a tough call and all I keep thinking is that this bullshit could have been avoided if Rick Smith, Gary Kubiak, & Co. had just taken a mature, "safe" (by NFL first round standards at least) player like Willis or Revis. Instead they had to go get cute and draft the guy who should have been dominating his high school team/division.

ChampionTexan
01-26-2010, 04:20 PM
Every year it's possible that the incredible upside we all hoped for could appear. Every year there are at least somewhat valid reasons why it hasn't shown up yet. The problem is that damned rookie contract will run out before we run out of excuses for why he hasn't become any kind of force at all on the line.

The Texans will have to decide whether to sign him and they won't be doing it in a vacuum. They'll be doing it with some dumbass GM out there from another team willing to offer Okoye money (maybe not top-ten pick money but good money) on the same slight chance that he's going to turn the corner that we're talking about. I don't know how you look at his body of work and say "Yeah, ok. Sign me up for 3-4 more years of that" and I damn sure don't know how you face the fans and your peers if you do take that chance and Amobi Okoye ain't got nothing more to show you than what you've already seen. How do you keep your job making decisions like that?

It's going to be a tough call and all I keep thinking is that this bullshit could have been avoided if Rick Smith, Gary Kubiak, & Co. had just taken a mature, "safe" (by NFL first round standards at least) player like Willis or Revis. Instead they had to go get cute and draft the guy who should have been dominating his high school team/division.

As pointed out in a previous post, he's under contract for three more years (the third one voidable) at reasonable money. If questions still exist at that point, they'll always exist (I just don't think that's true after 3 years).

m5kwatts
01-26-2010, 07:47 PM
I think Haynesworth is an example of why we shouldn't eliminate the possibility that Okoye has yet to approach his ceiling, and in fact it's possible (not saying likely) that it could still be a pretty high one.

Haynesworth was 20 years old when drafted, and 21 years old when his rookie season started. He was listed at 320 lbs. at the draft, and is now listed at a playing weight of 350 (and he's probably more). After four seasons, he was known around the league as the guy who stomped on Andre Gurode's face, and little else. Now he's the "$100,000,000" man.

That's one end of the spectrum, and while it's improbable that Amobi becomes what Phat Albert is now (when healthy and motivated), it's also kind of short-sighted if you assume that he's topped out, or try to predict how much further he's capable of growing.

Right now, Amobi's a slightly better version of Travis Johnson (and Travis Johnson still has a job in the NFL). Given the incremental cost and risk (or lack thereof), to keep him around, I think it's going to be interesting to see where he is after his fourth and fifth years in the league.

Very good points. I'm all for giving Okoye time to develop whether it be physically or mentally and he will add "NFL weight" to his frame. I just hope his production comes sooner than later.

Also, does anyone remember during the Bengals game, I don't recall who the announcers were but one of them said the Bengals' coaching staff told them Okoye was one of the better speed interior d-lineman in the league and was one of their biggest concerns in preparing for the Texans defense. If anything this shows that if the Texans didn't want him, there'd be other teams in line who'd be more than happy to have his services.

Texan_Bill
01-26-2010, 07:50 PM
For the draft pick - BUST

For the money - workable as some depth (while hopefully maturing both physically and mentally)

TheRealJoker
01-26-2010, 08:36 PM
He was supposed to be baby Sapp and more importantly Mario's partner in crime. Similar to how Cushing is DeMeco's partner in crime. His presence was supposed to elevate the other player's game and vice versa.

After 3 years he hasn't done that which is bad for where he was drafted. Even worse is the fact we passed on all pros like Darelle Revis and Patrick Willis. Basically all the bad things national media were saying about the Mario pick (no matter how good Mario is he'll never be as good as VY and Reggie) are true about the Okoye pick. No matter how good Amobi plays, he's never gonna be on the level of Revis and Willis, arguably the 2 best defensive players in the NFL (I personally thought Revis deserved DPOY and you could make a case for Willis as well).

Revis would've been a shutdown CB for us, Willis and his 4.3 speed could've been moved to SAM or we could've moved DeMeco to SAM. At least we got Cushing to lessen the sting of losing out on a talent like Willis but it sucks seeing Revis out there blanketing the opposing team's # 1 WR knowing that the Texans passed on him for Amobi.

m5kwatts
01-26-2010, 08:40 PM
He was supposed to be baby Sapp and more importantly Mario's partner in crime. Similar to how Cushing is DeMeco's partner in crime. His presence was supposed to elevate the other player's game and vice versa.

After 3 years he hasn't done that which is bad for where he was drafted. Even worse is the fact we passed on all pros like Darelle Revis and Patrick Willis. Basically all the bad things national media were saying about the Mario pick (no matter how good Mario is he'll never be as good as VY and Reggie) are true about the Okoye pick. No matter how good Amobi plays, he's never gonna be on the level of Revis and Willis, arguably the 2 best defensive players in the NFL (I personally thought Revis deserved DPOY and you could make a case for Willis as well).

Revis would've been a shutdown CB for us, Willis and his 4.3 speed could've been moved to SAM or we could've moved DeMeco to SAM. At least we got Cushing to lessen the sting of losing out on a talent like Willis but it sucks seeing Revis out there blanketing the opposing team's # 1 WR knowing that the Texans passed on him for Amobi.

You must've just skimmed through the first 2 lines of the original post, go back and re-read and re-post thanks.

infantrycak
01-27-2010, 10:02 AM
I think Haynesworth is an example of why we shouldn't eliminate the possibility that Okoye has yet to approach his ceiling, and in fact it's possible (not saying likely) that it could still be a pretty high one.

Haynesworth 15th pick first three years - 98 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 2 FF.
Okoye 10th pick first three years - 94 tackles, 8 sacks, 2 FF.

Haynesworth did play in 8 less games during that time due to injury. Interestingly, he never notched a sack during those three years against the Texans.

Likelihood is the $64k question.

Mr. White
01-27-2010, 11:01 AM
If there's anything to the Haynesworth comparison, that means it'll be a contract year before we see anything from him.

2slik4u
01-27-2010, 08:39 PM
I'm not sure where you got that impression about his playing time. He saw a reduced role in the second half, but still played the vast majority of the snaps.

Game snaps taken/possible snaps - sat out
1 59/80 - 21
2 50/65 - 15
3 51/64 - 13
4 50/61 - 11
5 55/60 - 5
6 54/58 - 4
7 53/62 - 9
8 42/45 - 3
9 59/81 - 22
10 60/70 - 10
11 45/67 - 22
12 51/70 - 19
13 55/69 - 14
14 47/60 - 13
15 63/80 - 17
16 46/64 - 18

I thought he showed some flashes early in the season, and at times seemed like he was getting things figured out. At one point he was on pace for 6.5 sacks, 26 QB Pressures, and 35 stops; then after week 5 he just seemed to disappear. He was practically invisible in the pass rush from Cinci in week 6 until his 7 QB pressure game against Miami in week 16.

I'd say it was a valuable year in his development, and for a 22 year old, it was a decent performance. He showed some ability against the run that we haven't seen in the past, and seemed to anchor better against the double team.

Okoye isn't making that much, and he will probably get the full length of his contract to figure things out. Almost all of his contract was guaranteed, and his base salary is pretty much league minimum.

Amobi Okoye Defensive Lineman 7/26/2007: Signed a six-year, $15.4 million contract. The deal contains $12.785 million guaranteed. Another $2.3 million is available through incentives, including a fifth-year escalator of $2.2 million. 2009: $630,000, 2010: $765,000, 2011: $850,000, 2012: $665,000 (Voidable Year), 2013: Free Agent

Great post, great info. I think based on contract numbers alone we should keep him around and see if he materializes into the player we expected. Thats suprisingly not as much money as I first thought.

ubecool454
01-27-2010, 08:42 PM
Where does he stand? Right now I'm not sure but if he doesn't get better and start bringing it he will be standing in the unemployment line.

GP
01-27-2010, 11:15 PM
First please note, this is NOT a "lets mindlessly bash Okoye" thread

Also please note, this is NOT an "I'm smarter than Rick Smith because I would have drafted Patrick Willis or Darrelle Revis" thread either

The purpose of this thread is to examine Okoye's status with the Texans right now and how his situation is approached going forward.

Man, this is like a legal covenant agreement thread.

Can I fart during this thread? Am I allowed visitors and physical contact during this thread? LOL.

You essentially say we can't do any of those things.

I just say the guy is depth, at best. Let's cut the mumbo jumbo and just call it what it is: A project that's growing tiresome on me, and upon others.

Maybe he can turn the corner. Maybe not.

Seems to be in line with his head coach's chances, as well, so that's not surprising.

(Sigh)

I broke the rules. Fortunately, I am a Texans fan. I can't be cut from the fan base as long as Gurry Kubiak is head coach. I might even get more snaps! Or franchised!

GNTLEWOLF
01-27-2010, 11:28 PM
Man, this is like a legal covenant agreement thread.


You essentially say we can't do any of those things.

I just say the guy is depth, at best. Let's cut the mumbo jumbo and just call it what it is: A project that's growing tiresome on me, and upon others.

Maybe he can turn the corner. Maybe not.

Seems to be in line with his head coach's chances, as well, so that's not surprising.

(Sigh)

I broke the rules. Fortunately, I am a Texans fan. I can't be cut from the fan base as long as Gurry Kubiak is head coach. I might even get more snaps! Or franchised!
:spit:

must spread Rep

dalemurphy
01-28-2010, 01:05 AM
The majority of the negative nellies and soapers are right. As of now, he's solid depth, at best, for a good DL. That being said, I'm not entirely without hope that he can progress. After all, he clearly made great strides this season. In the preseason and through the first three games I was livid that the guy even saw the field. He would consistently get washed 15 yards off the play when he was run at. Something changed in October and he became mediocre versus the run (a dramatic improvement!). What is disconcerting to me is his inability to rush the passer. He seems unable to disengage from a blocker even when he beats him with his first step and, as a result, gets ridden past the play with relative ease. I assume this means that he needs to strengthen his core and work on his handfighting. Hopefully that will happen and we will see further improvement. Personally, I've been pimping Deljuan Robinson for about one year and think he is clearly the closest thing we have to a playmaker at DT, though I do like the consistency of S. Cody.

GP
01-28-2010, 09:28 AM
The majority of the negative nellies and soapers are right. As of now, he's solid depth, at best, for a good DL. That being said, I'm not entirely without hope that he can progress. After all, he clearly made great strides this season. In the preseason and through the first three games I was livid that the guy even saw the field. He would consistently get washed 15 yards off the play when he was run at. Something changed in October and he became mediocre versus the run (a dramatic improvement!). What is disconcerting to me is his inability to rush the passer. He seems unable to disengage from a blocker even when he beats him with his first step and, as a result, gets ridden past the play with relative ease. I assume this means that he needs to strengthen his core and work on his handfighting. Hopefully that will happen and we will see further improvement. Personally, I've been pimping Deljuan Robinson for about one year and think he is clearly the closest thing we have to a playmaker at DT, though I do like the consistency of S. Cody.

Same here.

I really hope it's legitimate that DelJuan was hurt, and not that Kubiak is pulling the same stuff on DelJuan that he does with Jacoby Jones.

He has power AND quickness, and some smarts in the heat of the moment.

I really began to focus in on watching DelJuan at the end of 2008 when he and Bulman started seeing more snaps in the last few games.

Ole Miss Texan
01-28-2010, 10:43 AM
I really like having Deljuan and Bulman on our roster, I love how they play.

Interesting note about Amobi's pass rushing stats from last season as compared to other DTs:

QB Sacks (2): T-20th
QB Hits: (5): T-12th
QB Pressures: (21): 4th

I hope we continue to see improvement.

threetoedpete
01-28-2010, 12:17 PM
I really like having Deljuan and Bulman on our roster, I love how they play.

Interesting note about Amobi's pass rushing stats from last season as compared to other DTs:

QB Sacks (2): T-20th
QB Hits: (5): T-12th
QB Pressures: (21): 4th

I hope we continue to see improvement.

I use to post I thought we were drafting John Randle http://images.google.com/images?q=John+Randle&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=T8ZhS92wMYmGNPKX1OoL&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQsAQwAA of the Minnesota Vikings and Sea hawks....and what we've gotten so far is Tony Randall. There is no doubt the guy thoroughly whipped every ones butt in the drills the year he attended the Senior bowl. He's not dead yet. The lesson of course is they all can bust out. No matter what their Rep. No matter how well they do prior to the draft. Drafting is an art not a science. One way or another it will all sort itself out this year. McClain mentioned the other day he had 25 tackles. Which from the DT position is pretty good.

steelbtexan
01-28-2010, 06:32 PM
The majority of the negative nellies and soapers are right. As of now, he's solid depth, at best, for a good DL. That being said, I'm not entirely without hope that he can progress. After all, he clearly made great strides this season. In the preseason and through the first three games I was livid that the guy even saw the field. He would consistently get washed 15 yards off the play when he was run at. Something changed in October and he became mediocre versus the run (a dramatic improvement!). What is disconcerting to me is his inability to rush the passer. He seems unable to disengage from a blocker even when he beats him with his first step and, as a result, gets ridden past the play with relative ease. I assume this means that he needs to strengthen his core and work on his handfighting. Hopefully that will happen and we will see further improvement. Personally, I've been pimping Deljuan Robinson for about one year and think he is clearly the closest thing we have to a playmaker at DT, though I do like the consistency of S. Cody.

What progess?

You seemed to point out the negatives. The only positive is that he improved to medicore against the run. LOL

I'm not saying they should cut him but after 2 NFL offseason he should have improved his core strength enough to be more than medicore against the run. IMO

This makes me question AO's dedication to the game. I certianly would expect more dedication out of a top 10 draft pick than what I've seen from AO if I were Smithiak and my career hung in the balance.

PapaL
01-28-2010, 06:57 PM
Where does he stand right now? Probably in a house worth more then most of us made combined last year.

GP
01-29-2010, 01:23 AM
What progess?

You seemed to point out the negatives. The only positive is that he improved to medicore against the run. LOL

I'm not saying they should cut him but after 2 NFL offseason he should have improved his core strength enough to be more than medicore against the run. IMO

This makes me question AO's dedication to the game. I certianly would expect more dedication out of a top 10 draft pick than what I've seen from AO if I were Smithiak and my career hung in the balance.

A lot was made about how smart and mature he was for his age, when we drafted him.

I wonder if it's exactly what you said in your post: He's just NOT the go-getter type who eats, sleeps, and breathes it (like a Brian Cushing does)?

Is there something in his personality that makes him very "chill" and not the assertive type on the field? You get a sense that with guys like Jared Allen, Brian Cushing, Ray Lewis, etc., that those guys view the football field as a place to inflict pain and punishment and have it be LEGAL!

In the end, maybe even Mario Williams fits the Amobi Okoye profile: A gentle, sort of care-free person who is just happy to be there. I'm not saying they don't love what they do. But maybe they don't have the same wiring as the guys around them who seem to bubble with energy and zeal on each and every play.

Maybe the scouting line of "Seems to take plays off" isn't such a bad thing to pay attention to?

Texecutioner
01-29-2010, 01:30 AM
I broke the rules. Fortunately, I am a Texans fan. I can't be cut from the fan base as long as Gurry Kubiak is head coach. I might even get more snaps! Or franchised!

:lol:

Hervoyel
01-29-2010, 12:00 PM
I keep thinking "Where does Okoye stand right now?"

I'm pretty sure he's right where the last offensive lineman he played against left him. Like a shopping cart out on the farthest corner of the parking lot that can't come back on its own and that nobody wants to walk that far out to retrieve.

CloakNNNdagger
01-29-2010, 12:30 PM
I keep thinking "Where does Okoye stand right now?"

I'm pretty sure he's right where the last offensive lineman he played against left him. Like a shopping cart out on the farthest corner of the parking lot that can't come back on its own and that nobody wants to walk that far out to retrieve.


What a picture to visualize! I think there have been other Texans carts that have been sharing that space for a while.:lol:

steelbtexan
01-29-2010, 03:28 PM
Okoyes cousin is on 790 right now. He's a forensics guy who's talking about the impact of concussions on NFL players.

After hearing Okoyes cousin I dont want Amobi on the team. He's never going to play at a high level. The Amobi Okoye experiment has been and will continue to be a waste of time and money.

Smithiak need to cut their losses and try to get as much in trade for this guy as soon as they can.

I propose an Okoye and a 4th rd pick trade to the Broncos for Kuper and Hillis.

There is no cap this year. This trade can and needs to happen.

JB
01-29-2010, 03:30 PM
Okoyes cousin is on 790 right now. He's a forensics guy who's talking about the impact of concussions on NFL players.

After hearing Okoyes cousin I dont want Amobi on the team. He's never going to play at a high level. The Amobi Okoye experiment has been and will continue to be a waste of time and money.

Smithiak need to cut their losses and try to get as much in trade for this guy as soon as they can.

I propose an Okoye and a 4th rd pick trade to the Broncos for Kuper and Hillis.

There is no cap this year. This trade can and needs to happen.

What did he say that led you to this conclusion?

steelbtexan
01-29-2010, 03:57 PM
He was talking about the dangers of playing football.

How football head injuries are causing ex-players early deaths.

While this my or may not be true I dont want people with this thought process playing DT on my NFL team.

Smithiak should just cut their losses.

ChampionTexan
01-29-2010, 03:59 PM
He was talking about the dangers of playing football.

How football head injuries are causing ex-players early deaths.

While this my or may not be true I dont want people with this thought process playing DT on my NFL team.

Smithiak should just cut their losses.

So if I want to know your thought processes and views on issues, I can talk to your cousin, and assume I know them?

JB
01-29-2010, 04:01 PM
So Amobi was saying this or his cousin ( who I presume is a doctor?) was saying it? I do not get how his concern means that Amobi will not play hard.

BigTimeTexanFan
01-29-2010, 04:18 PM
He was talking about the dangers of playing football.

How football head injuries are causing ex-players early deaths.

While this my or may not be true I dont want people with this thought process playing DT on my NFL team.

Smithiak should just cut their losses.

It's a good thing his cousin doesn't play DT for the Texans then.

Blake
01-29-2010, 04:30 PM
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/91246367.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D014FAAB86BE4277F6 16D0A120A5438FD442F1EB6C1F368644E30A760B0D811297

Apparently he stands next to Cushing and Ryans.

steelbtexan
01-29-2010, 05:05 PM
So if I want to know your thought processes and views on issues, I can talk to your cousin, and assume I know them?

Yeah my cousins are much smarter than I am. All you have to do is ask them. LOL


Read GP's previous post, I believe Okoye doesn't have the right mind set and after hearing his cousin today I could've gotten an explanation as to why becoming a productive football player isn't high on his priority list.

steelbtexan
01-29-2010, 05:08 PM
It's a good thing his cousin doesn't play DT for the Texans then.

True

I hope AO's mindset isn't the same.

I have my doubts. Some people are too smart for their own good. AO appears to be one of these kind of guys.

Carr Bombed
01-29-2010, 06:42 PM
He was talking about the dangers of playing football.

How football head injuries are causing ex-players early deaths.

While this my or may not be true I dont want people with this thought process playing DT on my NFL team.

Smithiak should just cut their losses.

LOL sorry, but this is just rediculous.

If you haven't noticed the NFL and congress have started a strong campaign for in-depth studies into the long lasting effects of head injuries and awareness of concussion related issues.

Everything his cousin said was 100% true. (there is no "may or may not be true" about it) This is like not wanting a firefighter working at your local fire station, because his cousin "the doctor" says smoke inhalation is bad for your lungs and fire can pose a serious risk to your health. :rolleyes:

Every NFL player knows concussions aren't good and they also know that playing in the NFL has long lasting effects on their health...even some serious issues that can cut down on their life span. It's why they get paid the money they do and why I don't have a problem with players trying to get as much coin as they can while they're playing.

If you don't want Okoye on the roster, because you feel like he sucks, well that's one thing, but to say we need to cut ties because his cousin who works in the medical field is saying the medical equivalent of "the sky is blue" is just ridiculous. You know it's officially the offseason when you get reaches like that LOL.

m5kwatts
01-29-2010, 06:52 PM
True

I hope AO's mindset isn't the same.

I have my doubts. Some people are too smart for their own good. AO appears to be one of these kind of guys.

Don't forget Amobi is very cause-driven. He and a few elite NFL players went to Africa a few years back to spread AIDS awareness. Him playing at a high level puts him in a better situation to spread his causes. He's very sincere in his dedication to these cause so I would think that that would serve as a motivator.

CloakNNNdagger
01-29-2010, 07:09 PM
This could be a little off subject, but here is a contemporary yet oversimplified review of what is going on with the NFL in respect to the head injury issue. For those who might be interested.: New Sign of Brain Damage in N.F.L. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/sports/football/28brain.html)
Please feel free to continue the more pertinent discussion on Amobi.

Carr Bombed
01-29-2010, 07:15 PM
And that's another thing... I don't get where this "football mindset" thing has anything to do with a person's intelligence. We need to get past the "football players are just big dummies" and you have to be boarderline bonkers/stupid to do what they do.

Gene Upshaw was always veiwed as a highly intelligent guy....all he did was play 15 years in the NFL trenches and have a HOF career.

Mike Singletary was one of the best that ever played the game and he is as sharp as they come.

Matt Birk is a harvard graduate and he has been one of the best interior lineman in the league and just finished his 11 season in the NFL.

Seth Payne (remember him) was a Cornell graduate...nobody ever questioned his toughness or desire to play the game in the trenches.

Hell our very own DeMeco Ryans was a two time academic all-american and all that guy does is eats, breaths, and craps football.

Look at this years Myron Rolle, all he did was become a Rhodes Scholar which forced him to take a year off from football. What did he do.....his love for football motivated him to go train at a rugby facility nearly everyday and now he's shown up to the Senior Bowl in the best shape of his life and is blowing NFL scouts away. While at the same time you have perceived dumber "SEC football player" like Terrence Cody showing up pushing 370 pounds and looking like a lazy slug.

Dedication and love to play the game has NOTHING to do with how smart you are...it's something you either have or you don't have (it's either in your blood or not) regardless of what your I.Q. score is. There are big dumb loafs who have no dedication or desire to play the game for anything other than a paycheck when they get into the league like Travis Johnson and JaMarcus Russell. If you raise their IQ, they aren't going to love football anymore than they currently do, just like lowering Frank Okam's IQ wouldn't make him a better football player :rolleyes:

JB
01-29-2010, 07:20 PM
And that's another thing... I don't get where this "football mindset" thing has anything to do with intelligence. We need to get past the "football players are just big dummies" and you have to be boarderline bonkers/stupid to do what they do.

Gene Upshaw was always veiwed as a highly intelligent guy....all he did was play 15 years in the NFL trenches and have a HOF career.

Matt Birk is a harvard graduate and he has been one of the best interior lineman in the league and just finished his 11 season in the NFL.

Hell our very own Seth Payne was a Cornell graduate...nobody every questioned his toughness or desire to play the game in the trenches.

Look at this years Myron Rolle, all he did was become a Rhodes Scholar which forced him to take a year off from football. What did he do.....his love for football motivated him to go train at a rugby facility nearly everyday and now he's shown up to the Senior Bowl in the best shape of his life and is blowing NFL scouts away. While at the same time you have perceived dumber "SEC football player" like Terrence Cody showing up pushing 370 pounds and looking like a lazy slug.

Desire to play the game has NOTHING to do with how smart you are...it's something you either have or you don't have regardless of what your I.Q. score is. There are big dumb loafs who have no desire to play the game when they get into the league like Travis Johnson and JaMarcus Russell. If you raise their IQ, they aren't going to love football anymore than they do just like lowering Frank Okam's IQ wouldn't make him a better football player :rolleyes:


:goodpost:

Except that Okam knows if he craps out in the NFL, he can go to med school. If he was borderline stupid he may figure he had to make it or work at McDonalds...

Carr Bombed
01-29-2010, 07:33 PM
:goodpost:

Except that Okam knows if he craps out in the NFL, he can go to med school. If he was borderline stupid he may figure he had to make it or work at McDonalds...

LOL, yeah but Okam didn't even show a love for the game at Texas. (and everybody knew it) The Texans brass were nieve for thinking they could get him to all of a sudden give a crap and Okam is smart for getting them to believe that he would give a crap while milking a highly lucrative NFL contract out of them.....Law school isn't cheap. :)

CloakNNNdagger
01-29-2010, 07:55 PM
:goodpost:

Except that Okam knows if he craps out in the NFL, he can go to med school. If he was borderline stupid he may figure he had to make it or work at McDonalds...

Some past Texans players could go in together to purchase their own large McDonald's franchise, AND staff it themselves. "One McDummy coming right up........would you care for some extra special stupid sauce with that?":chef:

steelbtexan
01-29-2010, 07:58 PM
LOL, yeah but Okam didn't even show a love for the game at Texas. (and everybody knew it) The Texans brass were nieve for thinking they could get him to all of a sudden give a crap and Okam is smart for getting them to believe that he would give a crap while milking a highly lucrative NFL contract out of them.....Law school isn't cheap. :)

I consider AO in this group of players.

He's doing Nigerian charity trips after his rookie season. Instead of staying in Houston and working on improving his craft.

This is the type of guy Idont want on my team. I want guys who eat and sleep football on my team. Ones who work hard in the offseason so they will be better players the next year.

That's called being dedicated to your craft.

It's either in you or its not in you.

It doesn't appear to be in Okoye. IMO

Carr Bombed
01-29-2010, 08:09 PM
I consider AO in this group of players.

He's doing Nigerian charity trips after his rookie season. Instead of staying in Houston and working on improving his craft.

This is the type of guy Idont want on my team. I want guys who eat and sleep football on my team. Ones who work hard in the offseason so they will be better players the next year.

That's called being dedicated to your craft.

It's either in you or its not in you.

It doesn't appear to be in Okoye. IMO


I just don't think he's that great of a player. He did improve this year so that shows me he did something last offseason. I just don't think he's ever going to develop into the inside pass rushing beast that the Texans thought they were going to get, but that's why you don't draft 19 year old projects with top 10 picks. Amobi Okoye has some serious physical flaws, motivational issues aside. Frank Okam is everything you'd want and more as far as a "physical specimen" goes...he just doesn't care.

Hervoyel
01-29-2010, 08:11 PM
I consider AO in this group of players.

He's doing Nigerian charity trips after his rookie season. Instead of staying in Houston and working on improving his craft.

This is the type of guy Idont want on my team. I want guys who eat and sleep football on my team. Ones who work hard in the offseason so they will be better players the next year.

That's called being dedicated to your craft.

It's either in you or its not in you.

It doesn't appear to be in Okoye. IMO

It's right back into David Carr territory. Good citizen, wonderful father and husband I'm sure. Loves the baby Jesus with all his heart. He'd make a great neighbor I'm sure but I want my QB to be something of an obsessed asshole who lives, eats, and breaths this game.

Okoye has his priorities in order just like Carr and Okam. They don't align with the Houston Texans priorities though, or at least they shouldn't. Not entirely.

steelbtexan
01-29-2010, 08:16 PM
It's right back into David Carr territory. Good citizen, wonderful father and husband I'm sure. Loves the baby Jesus with all his heart. He'd make a great neighbor I'm sure but I want my QB to be something of an obsessed asshole who lives, eats, and breaths this game.

Okoye has his priorities in order just like Carr and Okam. They don't align with the Houston Texans priorities though, or at least they shouldn't. Not entirely.

LOL

Gotta spread the rep.

I want a team full of A-HOLES who are obsessed with football.

gary
01-29-2010, 10:34 PM
If he does not start playing better he'll be laying in the arms of Jerry Jones just pleading for mercey and another chance and Jerry just might do so.

Goatcheese
01-29-2010, 11:33 PM
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/91246367.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D014FAAB86BE4277F6 16D0A120A5438FD442F1EB6C1F368644E30A760B0D811297

Apparently he stands next to Cushing and Ryans.

Damn, how much has Okoye grown? He was 6020 at the combine, and here he looks a good inch taller than Cushing(6027).

Carr Bombed
01-30-2010, 12:28 AM
If he does not start playing better he'll be laying in the arms of Jerry Jones just pleading for mercey and another chance and Jerry just might do so.

Amobi doesn't carry enough hardware for Jerrah. He's a rocket launcher and a .50 cal short from being a troubled DT who Jerrah would be willing to take a chance on.

m5kwatts
01-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Does anyone think he'd be better suited as a 5-technique?

Goatcheese
01-30-2010, 02:17 AM
Does anyone think he'd be better suited as a 5-technique?

I don't see Okoye ever excelling as a 4-3 DE. He could probably handle a 4 tech in a 3-4, head up on the tackle.

houstonspartan
01-30-2010, 12:47 PM
I consider AO in this group of players.

He's doing Nigerian charity trips after his rookie season. Instead of staying in Houston and working on improving his craft.

This is the type of guy Idont want on my team. I want guys who eat and sleep football on my team. Ones who work hard in the offseason so they will be better players the next year.

That's called being dedicated to your craft.

It's either in you or its not in you.

It doesn't appear to be in Okoye. IMO

Sorry, but I just don't understand. I agree that having football obsessed guys on our team is what we want, but there's nothing wrong with a well-paid football player doing charity work.

Doing charity work and him being a mediocre football player aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It's possible that Okoye could spend ALL of his time on football and still crap out at it.

I know this is an extreme example, because we're talking about two totally different talents, but, Andre Johnson regularly does all kinds of charity work when he's not playing football.

As far as David Carr, it's well-documented that he was somewhat lazy and not dedicated. He was last one in the weight room and first one out. That's just how he was. I'm not sure if we can blame his charity work for that. Dude just didn't have it in him.

I like this discussion, though. Okoye is a hard one to read. I think what bothers me the most is that he's starting. He doesn't deserve to be starting. As others have said, at best, he's depth on the line.

GP
01-30-2010, 08:35 PM
It has nothing to do with what the guys do with their free time.

But I do think that Amobi doesn't have a motor that runs the whole time when it's football season. Not knocking the guy's talent or what he dreams he can achieve.

And I am not hating on the guy. He's there; I'm not. But there is something lacking, with Amobi over all of his seasons here, that you conversely saw immediately in Cushing's first season: Impact.

And I think the "impact" factor, in today's NFL, doesn't take a few years. You see it, or you don't. It's there, or it's not. And if it's not, you're depth at best.

Quarterbacks might be guys who bloom later than other people at other positions. Because they are having to process so much information, and their job is so reliant upon making split-second decisions with laser-like accuracy, that it takes some of them more time to get the role of NFL QB figured out.

Guys who run like hell and smash things, such as defensive players? The heat-seeking missile-type of player? He's got it or he doesn't. And that's why I think we should worry about Mario Williams, as well, and not just Amobi Okoye. The clock is ticking, IMO.

Goatcheese
01-30-2010, 08:48 PM
Guys who run like hell and smash things, such as defensive players? The heat-seeking missile-type of player? He's got it or he doesn't. And that's why I think we should worry about Mario Williams, as well, and not just Amobi Okoye. The clock is ticking, IMO.

They've both shown that they have 'it', just not the attitude to bring 'it' on every play.

jppaul
01-31-2010, 11:44 PM
I know/knew someone on the Staff at Louisville at the time Okoye was there, and he basically told me, that whoever drafted Okoye wouldn't be getting what they thought they were getting.

He said that he doubted Okoye was 19 at the time he was drafted, thus everybody who thought that this kid was just scratching the surface of talent, that thought he would better when he physically matured were mistaken because this person thought he was a "nigerian 19".

Obviously can't verify any of that, but thought it relevant to the issue.

GP
01-31-2010, 11:51 PM
They've both shown that they have 'it', just not the attitude to bring 'it' on every play.

Then they are worse than depth, IMO.

Depth players bring "it" on every down, so they won't get cut, because they don't have the "IT" (talent) that the lazy starters have but can't show on every play.

Vernon Davis is a guy who I saw in tonight's game. He has "IT" but before Mike Singletary became the law in 'Frisco he was an Amobi Okoye'ish player. No, correction: He was somewhere between an Okoye and a Mario. He got soft. And it affected him. Then he sort of swerved into reality.

Vernon Davis had a revelation, and I seriously think the guy is now operating at the level he was projected at when he was drafted. He's the sort of guy who has finally matched up his "it" and his "IT" and I think he's going to keep getting more dangerous each year.

houstonspartan
01-31-2010, 11:52 PM
I know/knew someone on the Staff at Louisville at the time Okoye was there, and he basically told me, that whoever drafted Okoye wouldn't be getting what they thought they were getting.

He said that he doubted Okoye was 19 at the time he was drafted, thus everybody who thought that this kid was just scratching the surface of talent, that thought he would better when he physically matured were mistaken because this person thought he was a "nigerian 19".

Obviously can't verify any of that, but thought it relevant to the issue.

Interesting. So is the implication that he was older than 19, or younger?

GP
01-31-2010, 11:56 PM
I know/knew someone on the Staff at Louisville at the time Okoye was there, and he basically told me, that whoever drafted Okoye wouldn't be getting what they thought they were getting.

He said that he doubted Okoye was 19 at the time he was drafted, thus everybody who thought that this kid was just scratching the surface of talent, that thought he would better when he physically matured were mistaken because this person thought he was a "nigerian 19".

Obviously can't verify any of that, but thought it relevant to the issue.

My brother-in-law and his wife are adopting to two twin sisters from Ethiopia.

They showed us the pictures, and the agency in Ethiopia says they are 6-years-old. My wife and I took one look at the photo and we chuckled and said, at the same time, "Those two girls are at least 9-years-old."

We have a 5-year-old girl. And we have a 9-year-old girl. So we know, from living with our girls every day, what the two ages look like. The facial structure, alone, is easy to spot a 4-year difference in age.

Sure enough, they found out that the girls are indeed 9.

It's a culture thing. Or it's an issue of not documenting the exact birth date in more official manner than what we see happening in the U.S. hospitals.

I can see how the guy might really have been 21 or 22 when we drafted him. It's not out of the question, though I think his parents' life story (IIRC) places Amobi as someone who would have pretty accurate birth year data.

houstonspartan
02-01-2010, 12:00 AM
My brother-in-law and his wife are adopting to two twin sisters from Ethiopia.

They showed us the pictures, and the agency in Ethiopia says they are 6-years-old. My wife and I took one look at the photo and we chuckled and said, at the same time, "Those two girls are at least 9-years-old."

We have a 5-year-old girl. And we have a 9-year-old girl. So we know, from living with our girls every day, what the two ages look like. The facial structure, alone, is easy to spot a 4-year difference in age.

Sure enough, they found out that the girls are indeed 9.

It's a culture thing. Or it's an issue of not documenting the exact birth date in more official manner than what we see happening in the U.S. hospitals.

I can see how the guy might really have been 21 or 22 when we drafted him. It's not out of the question, though I think his parents' life story (IIRC) places Amobi as someone who would have pretty accurate birth year data.

Wow, that's interesting.

So, wouldn't that mean that, physically, Okoye would be more advanced than he was? Of course, his football abilities would depend on when he actually got into the game. But I'm just wondering that, if he were really 21 or 22 when we drafted him, wouldn't he be further along than he is?

GP
02-01-2010, 12:10 AM
Wow, that's interesting.

So, wouldn't that mean that, physically, Okoye would be more advanced than he was? Of course, his football abilities would depend on when he actually got into the game. But I'm just wondering that, if he were really 21 or 22 when we drafted him, wouldn't he be further along than he is?

I think he's just got a personality that's way different than the killer sharks you see in Cushing, Jared Allen, Ray Lewis, etc.

You can have all the talent in the world, in any profession, but at the end of the day does your personality (the thing that's actually pretty "set" by that age) enable you or hinder you in what you do for a living?

I even think Mario has got a bit of that in him, too. Call it a "contentment" to be happy with just being there, or whatever, but I look at a guy like Jared Allen and put him side-by-side with Mario...what a difference.

Even Marvin Harrison has to have had some sort of dark, alter-ego thing that had to have been there (but masked, obviously).

Maybe he's just outmatched in a 4-3, like someone else said. I can buy that, too.

steelbtexan
02-01-2010, 01:23 AM
I know/knew someone on the Staff at Louisville at the time Okoye was there, and he basically told me, that whoever drafted Okoye wouldn't be getting what they thought they were getting.

He said that he doubted Okoye was 19 at the time he was drafted, thus everybody who thought that this kid was just scratching the surface of talent, that thought he would better when he physically matured were mistaken because this person thought he was a "nigerian 19".

Obviously can't verify any of that, but thought it relevant to the issue.

Smithiak shouldn't have drafted Okoye.

They were given a sign when Okoyes college coach Petrino) didn't draft him at pick no.8 for ATL.

Smithiak chose to ignore this and could pay the price by getting fired.

houstonspartan
02-01-2010, 01:40 AM
Smithiak shouldn't have drafted Okoye.

They were given a sign when Okoyes college coach Petrino) didn't draft him at pick no.8 for ATL.

Smithiak chose to ignore this and could pay the price by getting fired.

Well, Petrino was so lost as an NFL coach he wouldn't have known any better anyway. The guy was as clueless as all get out, so I'm not sure if his judgement should be used as a baseline for anything.

steelbtexan
02-01-2010, 01:54 AM
Well, Petrino was so lost as an NFL coach he wouldn't have known any better anyway. The guy was as clueless as all get out, so I'm not sure if his judgement should be used as a baseline for anything.

Point taken

houstonspartan
02-01-2010, 03:21 AM
I think he's just got a personality that's way different than the killer sharks you see in Cushing, Jared Allen, Ray Lewis, etc.

You can have all the talent in the world, in any profession, but at the end of the day does your personality (the thing that's actually pretty "set" by that age) enable you or hinder you in what you do for a living?

I even think Mario has got a bit of that in him, too. Call it a "contentment" to be happy with just being there, or whatever, but I look at a guy like Jared Allen and put him side-by-side with Mario...what a difference.

Even Marvin Harrison has to have had some sort of dark, alter-ego thing that had to have been there (but masked, obviously).

Maybe he's just outmatched in a 4-3, like someone else said. I can buy that, too.

Well, if Mario likes his coach as much as he says he does, he'd better step it up in 2010. The Texans are a poorly-coached team, and the only way we'll overcome that is through our defense completely shutting people down.

m5kwatts
02-03-2010, 02:33 AM
Smithiak shouldn't have drafted Okoye.

They were given a sign when Okoyes college coach Petrino) didn't draft him at pick no.8 for ATL.

Smithiak chose to ignore this and could pay the price by getting fired.

And Petrino used that insider intelligence to swiftly stockpile a certain elite defensive end talent, Jamaal Anderson, who through 3 seasons has 2.5 sacks.

Norg
02-03-2010, 02:55 AM
This would be the year he gets out of college if he stayed his senior year lets wait and see on what we got for 2 more years

Goatcheese
02-03-2010, 04:08 AM
This would be the year he gets out of college if he stayed his senior year lets wait and see on what we got for 2 more years

Don't you know Okoye is actually 30? :rolleyes:

maddogmrb
02-03-2010, 08:44 AM
Omobi's Current Status Right Now is: Starting DT

Omobi's Current Status Right Now SHOULD BE: Bench player getting ocassional minutes until he consistently elevates his game.

Omobi's Status Going Forward: Starting DT because Smithiak refuse to admit their error.

Omobi's Status Going Forward SHOULD BE: Bench player getting ocassional minutes until he consistently elevates his game.

Scooter
02-03-2010, 08:57 AM
Omobi's Current Status Right Now is: Starting DT

Omobi's Current Status Right Now SHOULD BE: Bench player getting ocassional minutes until he consistently elevates his game.

Omobi's Status Going Forward: Starting DT because Smithiak refuse to admit their error.

Omobi's Status Going Forward SHOULD BE: Bench player getting ocassional minutes until he consistently elevates his game.

okoye's status right now is - starting DT
okoye's status SHOULD BE - "and in the 2010 draft, from louisville ... wait, how does okoye have 3 years NFL experience already?"

okoye's status going forward is - we dont know
okoye's status going forward SHOULD BE - entirely dependant on how he performs during camp and preseason compared to his competition.

Dutchrudder
02-03-2010, 10:01 AM
okoye's status right now is - starting DT
okoye's status SHOULD BE - "and in the 2010 draft, from louisville ... wait, how does okoye have 3 years NFL experience already?"

okoye's status going forward is - we dont know
okoye's status going forward SHOULD BE - entirely dependant on how he performs during camp and preseason compared to his competition.

I think his status should be 'traded to an AFC/NFC West team for a 4th round pick'.

And just in case anyone hasn't said this yet:

Q: Where does Okoye stand right now?
A: Pancaked under the left guard.

:D

JB
02-03-2010, 10:33 AM
I think his status should be 'traded to an AFC/NFC West team for a 4th round pick'.

And just in case anyone hasn't said this yet:

Q: Where does Okoye stand right now?
A: Pancaked under the left guard.

:D

I am glad you have no real sayso

Dutchrudder
02-03-2010, 02:22 PM
I am glad you have no real sayso


Ahhh, I'm just joking. Amobi is young (22?) and still needs time to develop, but he should have been doing this in college, not the NFL. Either him or Cody need to be replaced as a starting DT this year. We need a DT that requires two blockers every down so that our DE's can get to the QB better.

barrett
04-17-2010, 01:08 PM
In a story on Chron.com (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6962937.html)

Okoye mentions that he's going to be playing at his rookie weight of 290:

I just feel like this is the year,” he said. “I'm back at the weight (290) that raised eyebrows at the Senior Bowl in the first place. I feel that's what I should be, and I'm excited about this season.

can anyone tell me what weights he's played at the other 2 seasons? He's listed at 296 on HT.com.

It's certianly worth noting that he was the most explosive against the pass as a rookie but best against the run last season (after week 4).

CloakNNNdagger
04-17-2010, 01:19 PM
In a story on Chron.com (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6962937.html)

Okoye mentions that he's going to be playing at his rookie weight of 290:



can anyone tell me what weights he's played at the other 2 seasons? He's listed at 296 on HT.com.

It's certianly worth noting that he was the most explosive against the pass as a rookie but best against the run last season (after week 4).

Last year he played at 315. A the NFL Combine, he weighed in at 302.

Section516
04-17-2010, 01:27 PM
How will this affect the run D?

gary
04-17-2010, 01:28 PM
If would just be more of a contributer the D would be better. I am looking for a CB in the draft.

steelbtexan
04-17-2010, 01:37 PM
I think his status should be 'traded to an AFC/NFC West team for a 4th round pick'.

And just in case anyone hasn't said this yet:

Q: Where does Okoye stand right now?
A: Pancaked under the left guard.

:D

Or pushed 3 yds off the LOS.

barrett
04-17-2010, 02:46 PM
Kollar is well known for utilizing undersized linemen. They made the move to go with smaller interior DLinemen around week 3 or 4 and the results were positive. If he's playing 20+ pounds lighter that's substantial. Looks like it'll be another year of questions surrounding #91.


I recognize that change is the only constant in the NFL but this interior line thing has been in massive flux for too long. The secondary as well. I'm so tired of all the unknowns with these two groups.

CloakNNNdagger
04-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Kollar is well known for utilizing undersized linemen. They made the move to go with smaller interior DLinemen around week 3 or 4 and the results were positive. If he's playing 20+ pounds lighter that's substantial. Looks like it'll be another year of questions surrounding #91.


I recognize that change is the only constant in the NFL but this interior line thing has been in massive flux for too long. The secondary as well. I'm so tired of all the unknowns with these two groups.

Sometimes, I think the brain trust has gotten too caught up in BIG vs. SMALL ATHLETIC.....Where on both sides of the line, independent of size, they have been minimizing the importance of individual football STRENGTH.

infantrycak
04-17-2010, 04:03 PM
Sometimes, I think the brain trust has gotten too caught up in BIG vs. SMALL ATHLETIC.....Where on both sides of the line, independent of size, they have been minimizing the importance of individual football STRENGTH.

I am not sure that is the reality of their back room discussions as much as it is the realm of fan generalization. Hopefully the new S&C coach will work on the football strength part as well.

barrett
04-17-2010, 04:26 PM
I hope the change in S&C makes as big of a difference as you guys seem to think it will. It makes sense to me.

m5kwatts
04-18-2010, 02:46 AM
sometimes, i think this message board has gotten too caught up in big vs. Small athletic.....where on both sides of the line, independent of size, they have been minimizing the importance of individual football strength.

fify

Scooter
04-18-2010, 08:10 AM
THIS is why we drafted okoye. instead of having his name called this weekend like most other 22 year olds, okoye's spent 3 years in the texans' organization and has diagnosed one of his biggest flaws (one that every d-lineman struggles to dial in), his ideal weight.

strength as CND has said, is obvious as one that gets lost in the great weight debate ... most folks arent pat williams. one not so clear is balance. in a game where success is measured by fractions, 20lbs to a kid is a major difference. if okoye feels that at 290 he's a fraction quicker, able to get a fraction lower, able to use his strength a fraction better ... that is a MAJOR impact on his game. that pro level experience and adjustment isnt something you can find (nor a defensive tackle WANTING to lose weight) at that age.

thunderkyss
04-18-2010, 09:29 AM
Last year he played at 315. A the NFL Combine, he weighed in at 302.


How will this affect the run D?


If would just be more of a contributer the D would be better. I am looking for a CB in the draft.

If Amobi is going to get down to 290, it's not because of some whim he came up with on his own. Hopefully, it's a concerted decision that has come down from the Head-Coach, through the DC, via the DL coach, to the player. & this is the direction we want to go in.

Don't need to be a tub of lard to stop the run. If he's got a nose for the ball & a knack for getting in the backfield we can stop still stop the run.

Last year, we successfully stopped the run, by getting a hat on a hat, and keeping our LBs & Safeties clean.

I don't know how a 290lb Amobi is going to help that.

It irritates me, that we can't build on the things we were successful at in the previous year.

ubecool454
04-18-2010, 09:55 AM
I say draft Dan Williams or Mike Iiapti with the first pick. We need a stud DT worse than a OG. I would take Dan Williams, move Antonio Smith to DT and start Conner Barwin at the other DE. Okoye would get a year to provide depth or just package him in a trade. I want to see Okoye do good but we can't wait forever.......he is just a reach and an experiment gone bad. I just hope Okoye makes me eat my words.

infantrycak
04-18-2010, 10:11 AM
If Amobi is going to get down to 290, it's not because of some whim he came up with on his own.

Amobi getting up from 290 to 315 may very well not have been some whim he came up with on his own and may have been the whim of a now departed DC and DL coach.

Scooter
04-18-2010, 11:01 AM
Amobi getting up from 290 to 315 may very well not have been some whim he came up with on his own and may have been the whim of a now departed DC and DL coach.

yup yup.

"amobi you have the frame to put on ______ so that you can better ______" this is after topping 300 for the draft to hit that pretty number for defensive linemen.

dropping to 290 might not be wholly his decision, but i'm willing to bet it was his idea. while not inhuman like mario, okoye is exceptionally strong, especially (again) considering his age. getting "BEEEFCAAAKE!" doesnt make him stronger ... it's arguably counterproductive and has potentially been a set-back to this point. the kid's about as smart as they come and as a texan is the first time he's "failed" at anything ... if he says 290's where he's going to do the most damage, i believe him.

IDEXAN
04-18-2010, 11:11 AM
This is getting pretty redundant, this thing about this is the year that he finds himself and becomes the playmaker the Texans envisioned for their 10th round pick. So this is the 4th year, and it's still the same song & dance, right ?

ubecool454
04-18-2010, 11:21 AM
This is getting pretty redundant, this thing about this is the year that he finds himself and becomes the playmaker the Texans envisioned for their 10th round pick. So this is the 4th year, and it's still the same song & dance, right ?

Right ....I don't understand why Texans fans keep making excuses for this guy and they hated Travis Johnson who played with more fire. It's obvious this guy is as good as he will ever be. I just wish I could ask some of the opposing lineman around the NFL and see how threatened they feel when Okoye lines up across from them. I really want the guy to do well but I think we have a backup that is starting. At this point I want Dan Williams or make a trade for Haynesworth to get us over the hump.

kiwitexansfan
04-18-2010, 11:44 AM
Everytime I see this thread title I can't help but think "How am I supposed to know, who am I his mother?"

or

"How am I supposed to know, do you think I have an electronic tracking anklet on him or something?"

barrett
04-18-2010, 11:47 AM
I rewatched the Pats game late last night. (god I'm so ready!!) #91 was very aggressive against the run. They were putting a hat on a hat as you say but also breaking off the block and making the tackle frequently.

I'll be very curious to see what a reduction in weight does. Surely strength was effecting his ability to break off of the block.

dalemurphy
04-18-2010, 11:53 AM
If Amobi is going to get down to 290, it's not because of some whim he came up with on his own. Hopefully, it's a concerted decision that has come down from the Head-Coach, through the DC, via the DL coach, to the player. & this is the direction we want to go in.

Don't need to be a tub of lard to stop the run. If he's got a nose for the ball & a knack for getting in the backfield we can stop still stop the run.

Last year, we successfully stopped the run, by getting a hat on a hat, and keeping our LBs & Safeties clean.

I don't know how a 290lb Amobi is going to help that.

It irritates me, that we can't build on the things we were successful at in the previous year.

If the weight loss turns him into an effective pass rusher, then it's worth it. After all, that is what DL rotation is all about. He can rotate in on passing downs and Deljuan can play the 3 technique on rushing downs. If we end up with a good pass rush from a DT, not only do we get an extra 6 or 7 sacks from that position but it also creates many more opportunities for our DEs! How many times did you see Mario slide just behind the QB as he stepped up into the pocket last season?

Scooter
04-18-2010, 12:22 PM
okoye is 5 months older than ndamakong suh, with 3 years pro experience and personal grooming by the texans. for what he gives now and what's still left to improve upon, amobi seems to be ahead of the curve ... by 3 years if i had to guess. flashes of excellence, moments of obscurity, and trying to idealize his weight for the upcoming season ... i think we're doing pretty dang well on this one.

CloakNNNdagger
04-18-2010, 12:28 PM
From Scout.com's Okoye Draft Profile (http://louisville.scout.com/a.z?s=17&p=8&c=1&nid=2448860):

Pos:

Explosive defender with terrific instincts. Quick off the snap, plays with good pad level and gets a lot of force going up the field. Makes plays laterally, effectively uses hand technique to protect himself and rarely is off his feet. Chases hard to get involved in the action and makes plays everywhere on the field.

Neg:

Lacks top playing strength, is slow getting off the blocks and can be handled at the point.

Things apparently haven't changed much for Okoye, despite "aging" and NFL coaching (I know, don't say it).


As I've said before, I like Okoye. But there may have well been good logic behind other teams passing him up, and probably passing him up quite a bit past the 10th pick, had we not taken him. There can't be much solace taken by the fact that "he is just now at 'draft age' and had an opportunity to learn so much in the past 3 years," when a typical top 10 DT pick would have been expected to have been close to this level of play (or, probably better) 3 years ago. I will continue to hope that Okoye turns into that true starter caliber DT, but that still would not make up for the fact that this was not the smartest use of a #10 pick...............not even a well-calculated risk.

infantrycak
04-18-2010, 12:44 PM
But there may have well been good logic behind other teams passing him up, and probably passing him up quite a bit past the 10th pick, had we not taken him.

Dude was drafted in exactly the range all the experts expected him to go. He most definitely was not considered a reach.

steelbtexan
04-18-2010, 12:53 PM
We had this discussion about OkOye last offseason and I'm willing to bet we have this discussion next offseason.

OkOye doesn't have it and never will have it. It comes down to work ethic. I would like to know how much he could bench press when he was drafted vs what he can bench press now? I bet there's not much of a difference. (Not that the BP is everything) That is an example of lack of work ethic.

OkOye obviously has more important things going on in his life than having to worry about becoming the best professional football player he can be.

Okoye will never maximize his god given abilities. (Lack of work ethic)

In short he's a bust. But I enjoy having this coversation every offseason.

BTW: OkOye isn't the first DL to not maxamize his talent and still hang around the NFL for 10 yrs or so while making tons of $ and never being the players he could've been. It happen frequently.

All of the hoping that he matures is just wishful thinking. It's not going to happen. IMHO

m5kwatts
04-18-2010, 12:57 PM
we had this discussion about OkOye last offseason and I'm willing to bet we have this discussion next offseason.

OkOye doesn't have it and never will have it. It comes down to work ethic. I would like to know how much he could bench press when he was drafted vs what he can bench press now? I bet there's not much of a difference. (Not that the BP is everything) That is an example of lack of work ethic.

OkOye obviously has more important things going on in his life than having to worry about becoming the best professional football player he can be.

Okoye will never maximize his god given abilities. (Lack of work ethic)

In short he's a bust. But I enjoy having this coversation every offseason.

BTW: OkOye isn't the first DL to not maxamize his talent and still hang around the NFL for 10 yrs or so while making tons of $ and never being the players he could've been. It happen frequently.

Replace "Ok0ye" with "Haynesworth" and all that would've been true about his first few years in the league

CloakNNNdagger
04-18-2010, 01:00 PM
Dude was drafted in exactly the range all the experts expected him to go. He most definitely was not considered a reach.

My point is that, that would have been fine if that were our "last piece of the puzzle" pick or we didn't need instant dominating skills in that or other positions. And, you are correct, the "experts" ranked him high........and he was still there at the 10...........for a team, whose state of "needs" could have probably been filled better with so many other talented players available at the time.

steelbtexan
04-18-2010, 01:02 PM
Replace "Ok0ye" with "Haynesworth" and all that would've been true about his first few years in the league

Haynesworth plays strictly for $. He's the exception to the rule.

There have been far more Chester McGlocklins and Darryl Gardners of the world. (Okoye) Than the Haynesworth types. (Okoye)

dalemurphy
04-18-2010, 01:26 PM
We had this discussion about OkOye last offseason and I'm willing to bet we have this discussion next offseason.

OkOye doesn't have it and never will have it. It comes down to work ethic. I would like to know how much he could bench press when he was drafted vs what he can bench press now? I bet there's not much of a difference. (Not that the BP is everything) That is an example of lack of work ethic.

OkOye obviously has more important things going on in his life than having to worry about becoming the best professional football player he can be.

Okoye will never maximize his god given abilities. (Lack of work ethic)

In short he's a bust. But I enjoy having this coversation every offseason.

BTW: OkOye isn't the first DL to not maxamize his talent and still hang around the NFL for 10 yrs or so while making tons of $ and never being the players he could've been. It happen frequently.

All of the hoping that he matures is just wishful thinking. It's not going to happen. IMHO


You're right. But, sometimes wishful thinking does come true.!

By the way, other than the handling of the safety situation last season and the crush they have on Kasey Studdard, my biggest issue with this coaching staff is their insistence to continue to play Okoye so many snaps. I still don't understand why Deljuan was sitting on the bench last season while Okoye played almost every snap.

If he has really dropped 20 lbs, perhaps he will be effective at least situationally. Hopefully the staff will use him accordingly.

m5kwatts
04-18-2010, 01:33 PM
Haynesworth plays strictly for $. He's the exception to the rule.

There have been far more Chester McGlocklins and Darryl Gardners of the world. (Okoye) Than the Haynesworth types. (Okoye)

Well he's not Travis Johnson bad either, he's actually shown flashes and was dominant his first few games in the league.... He's shown us what good Amobie Okoye looks like and has led us to believe that that player exists somewhere....There was no good side of Travis Johnson.

steelbtexan
04-18-2010, 01:47 PM
Well he's not Travis Johnson bad either, he's actually shown flashes and was dominant his first few games in the league.... He's shown us what good Amobie Okoye looks like and has led us to believe that that player exists somewhere....There was no good side of Travis Johnson.

I consider OkOye and T.Johnson to be on par with each other. OkOye has much more ability than Johnson. He just does less with his god given talent. That's the maddening thing.

To play DT in the NFL you've got to be a nasty guy. OkOye doesn't have this in his character and will never live up to his potential. IMHO

thunderkyss
04-18-2010, 01:54 PM
Amobi getting up from 290 to 315 may very well not have been some whim he came up with on his own and may have been the whim of a now departed DC and DL coach.

If Amobi is going to get down to 290, I HOPE it's not because of some whim he came up with on his own. Hopefully, it's a concerted decision that has come down from the Head-Coach, through the DC, via the DL coach, to the player. & this is the direction we want to go in.

Excuse me, I didn't mean to sound pretentious. I accidentally left out two words.

thunderkyss
04-18-2010, 01:59 PM
This is getting pretty redundant, this thing about this is the year that he finds himself and becomes the playmaker the Texans envisioned for their 10th round pick. So this is the 4th year, and it's still the same song & dance, right ?



Right ....I don't understand why Texans fans keep making excuses for this guy and they hated Travis Johnson who played with more fire. It's obvious this guy is as good as he will ever be.

I understand your Warren Sapps are far and in between. Most DT prospects develop the way Haynesworth has... Amobi is on that track. If it happens in '10, he'll be ahead of schedule.

welsh texan
04-18-2010, 02:07 PM
I don't think we can give up on Okoye just yet. That said, if you are a rebuilding franchise with multiple holes, how on earth can you justify using the 10th pick in the draft on a player that will need help around him for at least 3 years?

I don't agree that we should give up on Okoye after 3 years and at an age where he should have been coming into the league as a rookie, but by the same token, I also don't agree that the Texans FO made a good pick for the teams needs at that point in time by taking a project when any number of players still available at various positions could have come in and been quality starters from the get go.

Amobi needs to show improvement next season and become a true quality DT by 2 years time or else this is an expensive mistake by Smithiak.

ubecool454
04-18-2010, 03:00 PM
Everytime I see this thread title I can't help but think "How am I supposed to know, who am I his mother?"

or

"How am I supposed to know, do you think I have an electronic tracking anklet on him or something?"

If you watch the games and just focus on #91 you will know. He hardly ever stand anywhere because he is always on his back or flat on his face after getting push around and manhandled.

gary
04-18-2010, 03:26 PM
Next season will be my last draw with Okoye the problem is how much money he is going to cost the team by not working out.

Honoring Earl 34
04-18-2010, 03:29 PM
Dude was drafted in exactly the range all the experts expected him to go. He most definitely was not considered a reach.

Yep ... he made his money by dominating Senior Bwol week .

Goatcheese
04-18-2010, 04:31 PM
I consider OkOye and T.Johnson to be on par with each other. OkOye has much more ability than Johnson. He just does less with his god given talent. That's the maddening thing.

To play DT in the NFL you've got to be a nasty guy. OkOye doesn't have this in his character and will never live up to his potential. IMHO

You do realize that Okoye had 21 QB pressures (4th in the NFL among DTs) in 2009, and Travis Johnson doesn't have 21 QB pressures in his entire 5 year career, right?

thunderkyss
04-18-2010, 04:34 PM
I'm asking, because I don't know.

Which DT, taken in a recent draft, is performing better than Okoye?

JB
04-18-2010, 04:35 PM
You do realize that Okoye had 21 QB pressures (4th in the NFL among DTs) in 2009, and Travis Johnson doesn't have 21 QB pressures in his entire 5 year career, right?

I would be interested to see what the average time of release for opposing qb's were against our defense. Seems to me, the Qb was able to get a pass of in under 3 seconds most of the time.

Hard to rack up sacks if you secondary cannot cover for 3.5 seconds

CloakNNNdagger
04-18-2010, 04:53 PM
The 2007 NFL was probably one of the worst drafts for DT's of any in recent history. Look through the DT list of that draft (http://football.about.com/od/nfldrafthistory/a/2007draftresult.htm), not only the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, but also the remainder of the rounds. Recognize ANY of the names?? With this overtly poor selection of available DTs, it is not quite a solid point of boasting that we may had even chosen the best DT available...............especially when the caliber of Best Available PLAYER at that pick could have served us so much better.

CloakNNNdagger
04-18-2010, 05:44 PM
You do realize that Okoye had 21 QB pressures (4th in the NFL among DTs) in 2009, and Travis Johnson doesn't have 21 QB pressures in his entire 5 year career, right?

That, with Mario ranked at the 10th spot for DEs certainly didn't make for impressive Texans sack ranking of 25th.

Just for comparison, Okoye was 81st of 87 DTs against the run (Zgonina was 46th and Cody at 58th), 30th in pass rush (Zgonina was 16th and Cody at 60), and 74th overal DT rating (Zgonina at 30 and Cody at 69).

Lucky
04-18-2010, 06:44 PM
okoye is 5 months older than ndamakong suh, with 3 years pro experience and personal grooming by the texans.
I would still prefer Suh. Despite all of the "grooming". Actually, Okoye played better prior to the grooming.

That, with Mario ranked at the 10th spot for DEs certainly didn't make for impressive Texans sack ranking of 25th.

Just for comparison, Okoye was 81st of 87 DTs against the run (Zgonina was 46th and Cody at 58th), 30th in pass rush (Zgonina was 16th and Cody at 60), and 74th overal DT rating (Zgonina at 30 and Cody at 69).
Hey, where are these rankings coming from? Could I get a link and look through them? Thanks in advance.

Maddict5
04-18-2010, 06:58 PM
I would still prefer Suh. Despite all of the "grooming". Actually, Okoye played better prior to the grooming.


Hey, where are these rankings coming from? Could I get a link and look through them? Thanks in advance.


http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=&season=2009&pos=DT&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

CloakNNNdagger
04-18-2010, 07:10 PM
I would still prefer Suh. Despite all of the "grooming". Actually, Okoye played better prior to the grooming.


Hey, where are these rankings coming from? Could I get a link and look through them? Thanks in advance.

Sorry, Lucky, just responded to goatcheese's post, not catching that he had not posted the link.

Lucky
04-18-2010, 08:36 PM
Pro Football Focus, huh. So the QB hurries aren't an official stat (like from Stats, Inc.). Just from some fans who watch the games. Frankly, the 21 hurries from Okoye look inflated, to me.

I think C&D makes a good point regarding the lack of DT talent in the '07 draft. Though the Texans could have gotten similar production from Brandon Mebane (who was taken by Seattle with the 85th pick). Still, I find the excuses for Okoye to be weak. Had he worked harder on his technique and conditioning, we would have seen better results. Maybe not top 10 pick results, but better than what can be found in the 3rd round. He needs to see competition for his starting job in training camp. Not just handed it to him on a silver platter. Maybe then, Okoye will realize that this is his profession and will develop into a good, if not great, DT.

CloakNNNdagger
04-18-2010, 09:29 PM
Football Outsiders also has a stat charting of QB pressures. If you read the initial piece (which gives some insight to the process) and then follow the discussion below, you can see how arbitrary, indeed, this charting really is.

El Tejano
04-18-2010, 11:26 PM
Where does Okoye stand right now? In the middle of our defense and other teams' offensive lineman do it for him.

barrett
04-19-2010, 12:58 AM
I'm asking, because I don't know.

Which DT, taken in a recent draft, is performing better than Okoye?

anyone?

steelbtexan
04-19-2010, 01:05 AM
anyone?

Which is the reason I would make the trade for Haynesworth.

You may not like him personally. But he's a nasty dude. The Texans would have a physical/nasty presence on each level of their defense.

Haynesworth/Cushing/Pollard

This would be a good thing no?

Norg
04-19-2010, 01:18 AM
Hynes is a little old and slow tho wouldnt yall be worried

VY&CJ would just zipp right past him

and MJD could also prob out run him

barrett
05-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Does this guy look like our starting 3 tech DT?
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/388320363/Landing_in_Niaja_Airport.jpg
'm not saying, I'm just saying. Don't mean to pick on the guy seriously but I was shocked when I saw this pic. Judging from the military uni's in the background I'm guessing this is Nigeria. Amobi organizes a trip there every year for charity. So maybe two months ago?

I don't know enough about what he should be size wise but geeze he looks tiny.

Ole Miss Texan
05-06-2010, 04:59 PM
Honestly, if you've ever seen him in person, I think his size is alright. He's really not that tall (which I think is good for leverage) and he's got a BIG base/lower body - he's really wide. I don't know if he needs to just add more strength but from a body standpoint, I think he's good. Heck, maybe he's developing in the run stuffer and not the pass rusher. I think we all hope to see some major progress this season though.

Ole Miss Texan
05-06-2010, 05:03 PM
Ps - I always get nervous when this thread randomly pops up to the top.

:user: Goes searching for Recent Texans Transactions.

Jackie Chiles
05-06-2010, 05:16 PM
Does this guy look like our starting 3 tech DT?
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/388320363/Landing_in_Niaja_Airport.jpg
'm not saying, I'm just saying. Don't mean to pick on the guy seriously but I was shocked when I saw this pic. Judging from the military uni's in the background I'm guessing this is Nigeria. Amobi organizes a trip there every year for charity. So maybe two months ago?

I don't know enough about what he should be size wise but geeze he looks tiny.

He looks small but I don't mind if he weighs 250 as long as we get squeeze some more production out of him. He hasn't been performing at whatever he has been playing at, let him drop some weight and maybe he can give us something.

Edit: And when i say he hasn't been performing I mean he hasn't been performing like a top 10 pick. He has made improvements against the run as evidenced by this team's turnaround after the first 3 games last year.

dalemurphy
05-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Does this guy look like our starting 3 tech DT?
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/388320363/Landing_in_Niaja_Airport.jpg
'm not saying, I'm just saying. Don't mean to pick on the guy seriously but I was shocked when I saw this pic. Judging from the military uni's in the background I'm guessing this is Nigeria. Amobi organizes a trip there every year for charity. So maybe two months ago?

I don't know enough about what he should be size wise but geeze he looks tiny.

Looks as though the rumor of 20 lbs of weightloss is true!

Ole Miss Texan
05-06-2010, 05:38 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if the light comes on for Amobi next season? Kinda like he's caught up to the game, gotten honed in on how he needs to play and at what weight, etc. Just comes out next season and tears it up!? I know there hasn't been any evidence of this yet but that would be so sweet. Let's hope and pray guys.

gtexan02
05-06-2010, 05:41 PM
Does this guy look like our starting 3 tech DT?
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/388320363/Landing_in_Niaja_Airport.jpg
'm not saying, I'm just saying. Don't mean to pick on the guy seriously but I was shocked when I saw this pic. Judging from the military uni's in the background I'm guessing this is Nigeria. Amobi organizes a trip there every year for charity. So maybe two months ago?

I don't know enough about what he should be size wise but geeze he looks tiny.

Heres what he looked like at the combine


http://www.procombinetraining.com/images/mobi_p4ig.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
05-06-2010, 06:24 PM
Okoye played in college at 287.............then gained 15 for the Combine (302)............played the 2007 season at 302.................played the 2008 season at 305...........played the 2009 season at 315...............and now is purported to weigh in at 296.


Strength and technique, NOT weight, will be (as they have been all along) the deciding factors.

buddyboy
05-06-2010, 06:30 PM
He looks small but I don't mind if he weighs 250 as long as we get squeeze some more production out of him. He hasn't been performing at whatever he has been playing at, let him drop some weight and maybe he can give us something.

Edit: And when i say he hasn't been performing I mean he hasn't been performing like a top 10 pick. He has made improvements against the run as evidenced by this team's turnaround after the first 3 games last year.

If him "not performing" is failing to play as a top 10 pick, then I completely disagree with your stance. Say Ben Tate doesn't perform like a day one pick. Say he doesn't rush for 1000 yards, never becomes our number one back, but improves our rushing game #31 in the league to a top 10 running team.

He comes in on 3rd and short and gets the first down. But he's no star by any means. Is that a failure?

A player shouldn't be judged based on where he was picked. They have no control over that. So if Okoye plays better this season, but still not worthy of a #10 pick, that's okay. If he helps the team win games, I don't care what pick he was drafted at.

CloakNNNdagger
05-06-2010, 06:41 PM
In college, FLAT belly...........still HUMONGOUS lower body.


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v66/87/121/1658550033/n1658550033_30061525_4986.jpg

Lucky
05-06-2010, 07:01 PM
A player shouldn't be judged based on where he was picked.
I see your point. In that case, you judge the guys who are drafting and coaching the player. If Okoye doesn't perform as a top 10 pick...blame the guys who drafted him at #10 and are coaching the underachiever.

Jackie Chiles
05-07-2010, 01:31 PM
If him "not performing" is failing to play as a top 10 pick, then I completely disagree with your stance. Say Ben Tate doesn't perform like a day one pick. Say he doesn't rush for 1000 yards, never becomes our number one back, but improves our rushing game #31 in the league to a top 10 running team.

He comes in on 3rd and short and gets the first down. But he's no star by any means. Is that a failure?

A player shouldn't be judged based on where he was picked. They have no control over that. So if Okoye plays better this season, but still not worthy of a #10 pick, that's okay. If he helps the team win games, I don't care what pick he was drafted at.

Umm, that was pretty much the point of my entire post. Amobi is a bust as a top 10 pick but it doesn't mean he can't improve his game or help the team.

New_Texans
05-07-2010, 02:35 PM
Name me a DT that has come into the league and produced greatly within his first three years in the past ten years.

Now, take into account Okoye's age compared to those other DTs.

JB
05-07-2010, 02:38 PM
Name me a DT that has come into the league and produced greatly within his first three years in the past ten years.

Wilfork, Hampton, Ngata

Rey
05-07-2010, 02:41 PM
Name me a DT that has come into the league and produced greatly within his first three years in the past ten years.

Tommie Harris

New_Texans
05-07-2010, 02:42 PM
Wilfork, Hampton, Ngata

Okoye has more career sacks than Wilfork; the same amount of sacks as Hampton and more sacks than Ngata.

Yeah, harris had i think 11 sacks in his 1st 3 years total.
3 his rookie year, 3 the next, and 5 his third year.

We should be excited about the potential Okoye could show this coming year. It's not like he hasn't done anything at all production wise.

Perhaps our expectations are too high? I mean what do we want from him, sack numbers and hurries? Because, his overall skill set has improved each year, he wasn't as much of a liability on the field as he was his sophomore year during the run.

JB
05-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Okoye has more career sacks than Wilfork; the same amount of sacks as Hampton and more sacks than Ngata.

Being productive is not all about sacks

rmartin65
05-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Okoye has more career sacks than Wilfork; the same amount of sacks as Hampton and more sacks than Ngata.

Only problem is, sacks are not the end all be all for DTs. And Okoye is supposed to be a pass rusher, the other 3 are big nasty run pluggers.

New_Texans
05-07-2010, 02:51 PM
Only problem is, sacks are not the end all be all for DTs. And Okoye is supposed to be a pass rusher, the other 3 are big nasty run pluggers.

Exactly, this is why im confused by what people are asking of him. People are arguing about his weight because he isn't big enough then people are arguing about his pass rushing skills because he isn't getting 8+ sacks a season. We should be happy if Okoye gets 5 sacks a season because its rare for DT's to have huge sack numbers.

infantrycak
05-07-2010, 03:19 PM
Only problem is, sacks are not the end all be all for DTs. And Okoye is supposed to be a pass rusher, the other 3 are big nasty run pluggers.

And all come from 4-3 D's so why mention them in comparison?

Goldensilence
05-07-2010, 04:04 PM
Name me a DT that has come into the league and produced greatly within his first three years in the past ten years.

Now, take into account Okoye's age compared to those other DTs.

Sorry dude the age thing is getting old. The FO knew about his age when they drafted him. But, then again I guess since they aren't big players in FA they have to draft players that are raw and hope they develop into big time play makers in a year or three. Problem is it always seems to leave us behind the curve of the rest of the NFL.

Exactly, this is why im confused by what people are asking of him. People are arguing about his weight because he isn't big enough then people are arguing about his pass rushing skills because he isn't getting 8+ sacks a season. We should be happy if Okoye gets 5 sacks a season because its rare for DT's to have huge sack numbers.

Heck yeah I'd be happy with five sacks as opposed to the 2.5 he's netted the past two years combined.

What I'm asking of him is what the FO said they drafted him for. To be a pass rushing DT. Now if he turns out to be effective in the stopping the run that's supposed to be icing on the cake.

To me this is like having Ron Dayne as a "power runner" but turns out the guy falls at the LOS when someone touches him. It means he's not being effective in the role you brought him in to do. Clearly AO hasn't been effective in what they drafted him to do. Rush the passer.

rmartin65
05-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Exactly, this is why im confused by what people are asking of him. People are arguing about his weight because he isn't big enough then people are arguing about his pass rushing skills because he isn't getting 8+ sacks a season. We should be happy if Okoye gets 5 sacks a season because its rare for DT's to have huge sack numbers.

This FO places a premium on the DTs shooting gaps and getting to the passer. So while 8+ sacks is a little extreme, he should be doing better than 2.5 in the last two seasons.

And all come from 4-3 D's so why mention them in comparison?

I did not bring up the comparison. I was the one saying it was not an apt comparison.

dalemurphy
05-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Only problem is, sacks are not the end all be all for DTs. And Okoye is supposed to be a pass rusher, the other 3 are big nasty run pluggers.

While I'm cautiously hopeful that he will play better this season, without a doubt he has been a big disappointment over his first three seasons. Not only is his sack total low but he has been run over for much of the first three seasons (much better last 10 games last season). Also, though, he doesn't hit the QB or get free of blockers. Sometimes he does get near the QB but he's never disengaged from the blocker, who just rides him past the QB

The1ApplePie
05-07-2010, 05:05 PM
Okoye has more career sacks than Wilfork; the same amount of sacks as Hampton and more sacks than Ngata.

Yeah, harris had i think 11 sacks in his 1st 3 years total.
3 his rookie year, 3 the next, and 5 his third year.

We should be excited about the potential Okoye could show this coming year. It's not like he hasn't done anything at all production wise.

Perhaps our expectations are too high? I mean what do we want from him, sack numbers and hurries? Because, his overall skill set has improved each year, he wasn't as much of a liability on the field as he was his sophomore year during the run.

Wilfork and Ngata are two of the most dominant forces in their position and in the sport. When healthy, Harris is as well.

Okoye has never taken over a game and is not listed by anyone as a dominant player.

barrett
05-07-2010, 05:48 PM
Heres what he looked like at the combine


http://www.procombinetraining.com/images/mobi_p4ig.jpg

In college, FLAT belly...........still HUMONGOUS lower body.


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v66/87/121/1658550033/n1658550033_30061525_4986.jpg

very interesting and useful to see where he's at physically. he mentioned in a Q&A that he was back to his draft weight and that makes it pretty clear that he is but with better muscle tone.


this is the best i can muster for an image of him last year. looks more cut now and less round.

http://nimg.sulekha.com/sports/thumbnailfull/brett-favre-amobi-okoye-2009-8-31-22-10-9.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
05-07-2010, 07:46 PM
very interesting and useful to see where he's at physically. he mentioned in a Q&A that he was back to his draft weight and that makes it pretty clear that he is but with better muscle tone.


this is the best i can muster for an image of him last year. looks more cut now and less round.

http://nimg.sulekha.com/sports/thumbnailfull/brett-favre-amobi-okoye-2009-8-31-22-10-9.jpg

Keep in mind that his playing weight (when he chaulked up his amazing numbers in college) was 15 pounds less than his Combine weight. His admittedly needed extra "NFL weight" may not ever translate into attaining the rushing "super powers" he demonstrated in the "good ole days." That's at least something to think about.

CloakNNNdagger
05-07-2010, 08:03 PM
I don't know how many fans realize that the Texan's expectations when drafting him may have been overestimated by misevaluating his overall rushing sack skills, basing them essentially on a single season performance.

Sacks

freshman-1
sophomore-1
junior-none
senior-8

The question you have to ask..........was his senior year an aberration?.........and will the Texans continue to take this to a fault.

CloakNNNdagger
05-27-2010, 08:12 PM
Next year, will Kubiak be saying "He still has room to grow because at age 23, he's still the age of many rookies"?
Texans DT Amobi Okoye still learning (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9FVBJP80.html)

05/27/2010

By KRISTIE RIEKEN / Associated Press


Amobi Okoye got 5 1/2 sacks as a 20-year-old rookie in 2007.

The Houston Texans tackle figured he'd get at least that many each season. Two seasons and just 2 1/2 sacks later, the more seasoned Okoye realizes things don't come that easy in the NFL.

He says since the sacks came easily at first his dedication "dipped down a little bit" after his rookie season. He adds that he's been back on track since last season.

Coach Gary Kubiak says learning the difficulty of long-term success in the NFL is a lesson that players have to learn through experience. Still, he doesn't judge Okoye's performance solely on his sacks. He also notes that Okoye still has room to grow because at age 22, he's still the age of many rookies.

JB
05-27-2010, 09:50 PM
C'mon Doc. Admit it, you really don't like Okoye...

gary
05-27-2010, 10:00 PM
I'll give him one more season.

Hagar
05-28-2010, 01:29 AM
Until Okoye proves otherwise, he's a bust. Number 10 picks are not only expected to start but to excell. Okoye doesn't get very many sacks and he's pitiful against the run too.

CloakNNNdagger
05-28-2010, 07:39 AM
C'mon Doc. Admit it, you really don't like Okoye...

I have no personal feelings towards Okoye one way or the other. But, I find it somewhat unpalatable to hear that a 10th pick, at any point in time, especially early in his career, is given a pass on lack of dedication.......and age. Okoye and Kubiak were both aware of their decision for an "early coming out" and the immaturity factor making the long term investment a heavy and more unpredictable risk. Both definitely had something to prove. When you pick at 10, you are picking for a sure-fire early impact player.......not a developmental crap shoot. I hope that we finally see something special out of him having finally come of "draft age," but the investment to date in my mind has been very difficult to justify.

beerlover
05-28-2010, 08:32 AM
I have no personal feelings towards Okoye one way or the other. But, I find it somewhat unpalatable to hear that a 10th pick, at any point in time, especially early in his career, is given a pass on lack of dedication.......and age. Okoye and Kubiak were both aware of their decision for an "early coming out" and the immaturity factor making the long term investment a heavy and more unpredictable risk. Both definitely had something to prove. When you pick at 10, you are picking for a sure-fire early impact player.......not a developmental crap shoot. I hope that we finally see something special out of him having finally come of "draft age," but the investment to date in my mind has been very difficult to justify.

teams have a choice players do not where they are drafted, unless your freaking Archie Mannings kid :cool:

CloakNNNdagger
05-28-2010, 08:47 AM
teams have a choice players do not where they are drafted, unless your freaking Archie Mannings kid :cool:

Even as a 7th rounder, players DO have a choice whether to put forth genuine all-out effort and dedication.......or just take the money and run.

beerlover
05-28-2010, 08:52 AM
Even as a 7th rounder, players DO have a choice whether to put forth genuine all-out effort and dedication.......or just take the money and run.

probably more so don't you think since Amobi has already cashed in some coin? which begs the real question is he satisfied with his lifestyle as it is or will he flip a switch & start looking for that second big contract?

SAMURAITEXAN
05-28-2010, 09:23 AM
probably more so don't you think since Amobi has already cashed in some coin? which begs the real question is he satisfied with his lifestyle as it is or will he flip a switch & start looking for that second big contract?

Okoye will flips a switch & start looking for a new contract. He is very smart kid and being so young and already has 3 years of good life, I am sure he is looking for more good life and much brighter future.

Go Texans!!!

spurstexanstros
05-28-2010, 10:05 AM
Who is this Amobi Okoye everyone keeps mentioning I have searched and searched the texans past games and have yet to see this guy...I did see a #91 whiff on Gerrard on a 4th and 8..was that him?

IDEXAN
05-28-2010, 10:17 AM
Okoye is kinda, sorta the Texans Reggie Bush. Every year Okoye flashs, shows the promise, the reason he was picked so high, but after the seasons over fans end up wondering again why he was picked so high ? Maybe this will be the year that fans see the upside Smith/Kuibak saw in Okoye when he was picked (as maybe Saints fans will in Bush ?) ? Honestly though, I'm skeptical we ever see either player.

BullNation4Life
05-28-2010, 10:27 AM
Bust. Been saying it for a while now.

Okoye's biggest problem is in run defense. He usually gets blown off the ball and ends up 3 yards back off the line of scrimmage.

No actually that is where he plays the best. His pass rushing skills is the problem....

BullNation4Life
05-28-2010, 10:31 AM
Name me a DT that has come into the league and produced greatly within his first three years in the past ten years.

Now, take into account Okoye's age compared to those other DTs.

Tank Johnson...

threetoedpete
05-28-2010, 10:53 AM
Wouldn't it be awesome if the light comes on for Amobi next season? Kinda like he's caught up to the game, gotten honed in on how he needs to play and at what weight, etc. Just comes out next season and tears it up!? I know there hasn't been any evidence of this yet but that would be so sweet. Let's hope and pray guys.

I don't know about the light bulb, but you got to figure his brain trust is looking at the back end of the contract. Looking at those numbers they must realize, it costs the Texans next to nothing to go with the flow. However, if he wants the brass ring, he's going to have to produce in 2010. Other wise they could leave him twisting in the wind, if there is a season in 2011. Okoye could be one of those guys that takes up the production slack with the lose of Cushing the first four games. Or he could continue to be always a step too slow, a half a second too late. The difference in a new contract or starting over with another club at vet minimum.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1355578&postcount=7

Hagar
05-29-2010, 12:07 AM
No actually that is where he plays the best. His pass rushing skills is the problem....Well, then that's just sad because his run defense skills stink.

TimeKiller
05-29-2010, 07:14 PM
He'll have a nice spot in the rotation because no one has proven they should have his spot but it would be nice to see him have clear production to point to instead of good thoughts and hopes and QB pressures. It would be nice to say without a question he is playing well. Antonio Smith gets a QB pressure and it's because he loose and coming at the QB as they throw. Okoye gets QB pressures and you go....really?

Okoye stands on a short hill with almost nobody trying to push him off, except opposing OL.

thunderkyss
05-29-2010, 07:44 PM
I was watching one of the videos, and saw Mitchell playing next to Okam (who looks to be in great shape by the way)... I'm sure it doesn't show us exactly what they have planned for Mitchell, but it looks like they have him slotted to relieve Okoye from time to time, and not thrown in in passing situations like they told us (i.e. next to Okoye)...

ATXtexanfan
05-29-2010, 07:51 PM
Until Okoye proves otherwise, he's a bust. Number 10 picks are not only expected to start but to excell. Okoye doesn't get very many sacks and he's pitiful against the run too.

aren't most top ten picks a bust? best solution not to be there in the top ten. didnt like the pick then and dont like it now. if we move on without him so be it. you cant hit on all your investments.

New_Texans
05-30-2010, 03:36 AM
I just feel like the expectations for Okoye are a bit too high (which they should be since I mean we want him to destroy everyones faces). I'm not saying hes fine now, cause hes not; I want to see him make more game changing plays like stuffing the Raiders' lineman into the end zone to create that safety. However, I don't think hes bust just yet because if we judged many good DTs based on their first 3 years, many would be bust. I'll be surprised if we hear that Suh and McCoy are absolutely destroying people. BJ Raji? What did he do last season? Sedrick Ellis, wasn't blowing up lines for NO. Glenn Dorsey? Many are calling him a bust. Adam Carriker, hasn't done much. Haloti Ngata has been the best DT drafted since the 2006 draft--he happens to play on a ravens team that has always had a stellar defense, a ravens team that knows how to successfully use their DTs in a completely different scheme than what we use.

I don't believe that the Texans utilize their D-line in a way that will produce much as far as plays go...they've never done it. Mario Williams has produced supremely off of the number 1 overall talent that he has. We have our D-linemen dropping back into coverage for freaks sake on some plays...this past season was probably the best play we've seen from our D-line within the years of the Texans existance, which is sad. So, basically this coming season will be very telling as far as what comes to be since Kollar will have his 2nd season to work with the same guys...hes obviously been putting in his idea of what a D-line should be physically by making all of them slimmer.

JB
05-30-2010, 08:59 AM
Interesting read on Okoye

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDZoa8CNYjArYtDr-A1sC1B2AEYgD9FVO90O1

CloakNNNdagger
05-30-2010, 10:19 AM
Interesting read on Okoye

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDZoa8CNYjArYtDr-A1sC1B2AEYgD9FVO90O1

JB,

That is actually the article I posted [POST #160] (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1442453&postcount=160) right before your post questioning if I just didn't like Okoye. My subsequent posts actually were responsive to some of the comments made in that article. In that context, you may be able to better appreciate where I was coming from.:toast2:

JB
05-30-2010, 10:40 AM
JB,

That is actually the article I posted [POST #160] (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1442453&postcount=160) right before your post questioning if I just didn't like Okoye. My subsequent posts actually were responsive to some of the comments made in that article. In that context, you may be able to better appreciate where I was coming from.:toast2:

It does, and I do Doc. Btw, my comment about you not liking Okoye was tongue-in-cheek.

I happen to agree with you about his effort and dedication level. Hopefully, he will rectify that this year.

Lucky
05-30-2010, 11:45 AM
aren't most top ten picks a bust?
I would say, no. Defining the term "bust" is difficult, at best. Are guys like Robert Gallery, Roy Williams, and Reggie Bush considered "busts"? They have contributed, if not to the level expected. I would say they were over-drafted. As Okoye was. Charles Rogers and Ryan Leaf are busts.

thunderkyss
05-30-2010, 03:36 PM
Stats aren't everything..... I know.

But have we established the baseline stats that we should be judging Okoye against?

gary
05-30-2010, 03:45 PM
Good read about Okoye.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDZoa8CNYjArYtDr-A1sC1B2AEYgD9FVO90O1

PapaL
05-31-2010, 01:50 AM
OK I've stayed away from this thread for a long time but Okoye probably stands in the middle of a really big house thanks to us.

That is all. No real input.

SteveSlaton20
06-01-2010, 05:54 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8186ed04&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Okoye's on NFL.com, didnt check any of the other posts, so idk if its old by now or not.

76Texan
06-01-2010, 07:06 PM
Stats aren't everything..... I know.

But have we established the baseline stats that we should be judging Okoye against?

Even as TC's pieces are always interesting, I found KC Joyner's method of collecting date highly questionable.

He calimed that Okoye only beat the double team 3 times the whole year.

I mentioned in the Earl Mitchell's thread that I saw Okoye doing that in less than a half in the first game against the Jets.
I have not gotten around to review the rest, but I jumped to the Miami game.
And again, in less than a half, Okoye beat another 3 double teams.

I know I've seen him beating other double teams but I have yet to study every snap.

Just want to reiterate that analysis can't be any good until the data are correct.

thunderkyss
06-01-2010, 08:53 PM
Just want to reiterate that analysis can't be any good until the data are correct.

I haven't looked myself, but I remember Joyner differentiating between true double teams, and other "psuedo" double teams. If the second player started and finished on the block, then it was considered a double team. If the second player started, then got off the block to get to the second level, or help another lineman, he didn't consider it a true double. Same thing if Okoye engaged a player, and a second player came along... RB, TE, or even another line man.

So he only counted a double team a double team, if two people engaged Okoye, and stayed with him the entire play.

Like I said, I didn't look, but that doesn't happen often.

JB
06-01-2010, 09:55 PM
just want to reiterate that analysis can't be any good until the data are correct.

gigo

76Texan
06-01-2010, 10:14 PM
I haven't looked myself, but I remember Joyner differentiating between true double teams, and other "psuedo" double teams. If the second player started and finished on the block, then it was considered a double team. If the second player started, then got off the block to get to the second level, or help another lineman, he didn't consider it a true double. Same thing if Okoye engaged a player, and a second player came along... RB, TE, or even another line man.

So he only counted a double team a double team, if two people engaged Okoye, and stayed with him the entire play.

Like I said, I didn't look, but that doesn't happen often.

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/05/on_the_texans_and_runstuffing.html

And I quote Joyner:

The problem for the Texans is that their two main DTs were below par in this metric. Cody faced 22 double teams all year and won only one of those battles, for a double team POA win rate of 4.5%. Okoye had similar totals, as he won only three of the 53 double teams he faced last season (5.7% double team POA win rate).

Their numbers were even worse on pure double team blocks (i.e. blocks where both linemen stayed with the block - contrast to a combination block where both block the DL at first and then one releases downfield to block at the 2nd level). Cody and Okoye faced a combined 23 pure double teams and won not a single one of them. That metric says that whenever an offensive coordinator wanted to run the ball between the tackles, all he had to do was call for a double team on the DTs. If that doesn't change in 2010, Houston will see teams pound the ball at them with much success."

....

I would say the data were incorrect on both counts, against the pure double teams and the combo blocks.

76Texan
06-01-2010, 10:18 PM
gigo

I always stand corrected.

Never claim that all my data have total integrity, no matter how pure the intention.

Which was all the more reasons I've been stating that I'm no longer a fan of stats for quite a while now. Some thirty years ago when I was in college, I was.

JB
06-01-2010, 10:34 PM
I always stand corrected.

Never claim that all my data have total integrity, no matter how pure the intention.

Which was all the more reasons I've been stating that I'm no longer a fan of stats for quite a while now. Some thirty years ago when I was in college, I was.

No, no. I was agreeing with the statement you made. Any one can make observations and analyisis; But if you do not have consistent data, your conclusions are worthless. I am applying this to KC, as no one seems to know what he bases his analysis on...


Dude, I was agreeing with you.

76Texan
06-01-2010, 10:53 PM
No, no. I was agreeing with the statement you made. Any one can make observations and analyisis; But if you do not have consistent data, your conclusions are worthless. I am applying this to KC, as no one seems to know what he bases his analysis on...


Dude, I was agreeing with you.

That was my first impression. But I was not quite sure of the lingo and wanted to cover all the bases. :cow:

As I've said many times before, we can have difference in opinions at times and that would be fine! No problem there!

LOL, BTW, when you mentioned consistent data, I remember the days when we would go to the lab and tailor the data to our benefits, That was after reading about the experiment, knowing what kind of data we should be looking for. And I swear, a lot of times, we just couldnt get the data to agree with the conclusions that were supposed to be; so we doctored the data as best we could, LOL!

JB
06-01-2010, 11:25 PM
No, no. I was agreeing with the statement you made. Any one can make observations and analyisis; But if you do not have consistent data, your conclusions are worthless. I am applying this to KC, as no one seems to know what he bases his analysis on...


Dude, I was agreeing with you.

That was my first impression. But I was not quite sure of the lingo and wanted to cover all the bases. :cow:

As I've said many times before, we can have difference in opinions at times and that would be fine! No problem there!

LOL, BTW, when you mentioned consistent data, I remember the days when we would go to the lab and tailor the data to our benefits, That was after reading about the experiment, knowing what kind of data we should be looking for. And I swear, a lot of times, we just couldnt get the data to agree with the conclusions that were supposed to be; so we doctored the data as best we could, LOL!

If you did not know, gigo stands for :Garbage In, Garbage Out.

An old technician saying for programmers can be dumbasses also...

76Texan
06-01-2010, 11:51 PM
[QUOTE=76Texan;1444949]

If you did not know, gigo stands for :Garbage In, Garbage Out.

An old technician saying for programmers can be dumbasses also...

Oh yeah, me and my early Alzheimer.
And I am one year your junior, LOL!

JB
06-02-2010, 12:14 AM
[QUOTE=JB;1444965]

Oh yeah, me and my early Alzheimer.
And I am one year your junior, LOL!

Dude, if you gots Alzheimer, I want some...