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houstonlibraria
01-20-2010, 10:04 PM
Correct me if I am wrong here, but the lack of a pass rush is still killing this defense. Mario making a pro bowl is great and all, but he simply doesn't put pressure on the opposing team's offensive line like a pure pass rusher can do. I had high hopes for Barwin, but he's still learning the ropes.

I realize the defense improved by leaps and bounds this year, but man that lack of a pass rush was a killer often times.

I'd like some better corners and a run stuffing defensive tackle as much as anyone else, but I think a ferocious edge rusher would do more good than anything else for this team.

b0ng
01-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Correct me if I am wrong here, but the lack of a pass rush is still killing this defense. Mario making a pro bowl is great and all, but he simply doesn't put pressure on the opposing team's offensive line like a pure pass rusher can do. I had high hopes for Barwin, but he's still learning the ropes.

I realize the defense improved by leaps and bounds this year, but man that lack of a pass rush was a killer often times.

I'd like some better corners and a run stuffing defensive tackle as much as anyone else, but I think a ferocious edge rusher would do more good than anything else for this team.

I don't think you are going to get your wish :(

Brisco_County
01-20-2010, 10:25 PM
Rush the edge and then what, over pursue? That's what Mario's doing right now because we don't have pressure up the middle.

m5kwatts
01-20-2010, 10:26 PM
The landscape of this draft may provide some elite pass rushing ends when the Texans pick comes up in the 1st round... could be very hard to pass on some of the talent coming out this year as far as defensive ends

TexCanada
01-20-2010, 10:47 PM
Rush the edge and then what, over pursue? That's what Mario's doing right now because we don't have pressure up the middle.

I agree with this completely.

Our DEs are not even close to the problem. The problem is that when the opposing QB feels any sort of pressure coming from the edges, its no problem because he has acres of space in front of him. He can easily step up and have time to make a pass or run. A disruptive DT/NT to play alongside Okoye will go a very long way for helping this team's defense.

Brisco_County
01-20-2010, 11:33 PM
The landscape of this draft may provide some elite pass rushing ends when the Texans pick comes up in the 1st round... could be very hard to pass on some of the talent coming out this year as far as defensive ends

The only way I would support this is if we move Antonio Smith inside, but who knows if that's the best use of his ability.

Getting another DT is the solution. The fact that we've had two busts at that position is a ridiculously ignorant reason for not addressing it.

m5kwatts
01-20-2010, 11:42 PM
The only way I would support this is if we move Antonio Smith inside, but who knows if that's the best use of his ability.

Getting another DT is the solution. The fact that we've had two busts at that position is a ridiculously ignorant reason for not addressing it.

Yeah I don't think Smithiak would ignore it because of Okoye or TJ, the only reason I'd seem them not taking a 1st round DT would be if there's none there worth taking, which is the likely scenario. I would like Price or Dan Williams to be there but who knows how their stocks will fair over the next few months, I think they're only going to increase in demand. There's a plethora of projected 1st round DE's though and there will be atleast a couple of good ones at 19/20 wherever we pick. We could always trade up or trade back but who knows whats gonna happen, its only January.

Brisco_County
01-20-2010, 11:59 PM
Yeah I don't think Smithiak would ignore it because of Okoye or TJ, the only reason I'd seem them not taking a 1st round DT would be if there's none there worth taking, which is the likely scenario. I would like Price or Dan Williams to be there but who knows how their stocks will fair over the next few months, I think they're only going to increase in demand. There's a plethora of projected 1st round DE's though and there will be atleast a couple of good ones at 19/20 wherever we pick. We could always trade up or trade back but who knows whats gonna happen, its only January.

The more DE's in the draft, the better. Guys we don't need can fill picks between 1 and 19 while we wait for the player we want.

I would still support trading up for Gerald McCoy if it's a realistic scenario.

And if the DT we want in round 1 isn't there, I'd be thrilled taking Earl Thomas.

m5kwatts
01-21-2010, 12:10 AM
The more DE's in the draft, the better. Guys we don't need can fill picks between 1 and 19 while we wait for the player we want.

I would still support trading up for Gerald McCoy if it's a realistic scenario.

And if the DT we want in round 1 isn't there, I'd be thrilled taking Earl Thomas.

McCoy would be great but we'd have to trade up pretty high, probably top 5. Nobody wants to pay top 5 rookie money either and I don't imagine the Texans would want to do that. Earl Thomas would be awesome but I can't see him getting past the Steelers who have a big need at safety. His value is only going to increase. Mays could be there but I keep hearing negative things about him which is why his stock is slipping. Its looking more and more like DE or reach for a CB/DT you like. Or go completely off the map and take the best player available like a Dez Bryant. The good thing is this draft is loaded and I don't think it makes sense to reach on anybody when you can fill needs later in the draft.

Joe Texan
01-21-2010, 12:50 AM
Why cant you draft a DE and make him a tackle. These kids are young and teachable. If we got one hard ass Rusher up the middle Mario would be the king of sacks. He already improved with pressure from the other side, Now we need someone who is twice as big as Demeco With the Brian Attitude. Put him up the middle and it is "Texans We are Bullish on the front line", for years to come.


Stampede Defence

Marcus
01-21-2010, 01:27 AM
Getting another DT is the solution. The fact that we've had two busts at that position is a ridiculously ignorant reason for not addressing it.

Thank you! I have never understood the logic with this "spread the wealth" thing if the previous picks for the original positions busted out. Drafts are crapshoots. Some are going to be misses, others are going to hit.

I don't care how much of the salary cap is tied up on the DL, the fact still remains that there is a need for a DT who can ragdoll the interior O-line, like Haloti Ngata or Kris Jenkins.

I know it would never happen, but if we trade our entire draft for Ndamukong Suh, I wouldn't complain.

RagingBull
01-21-2010, 01:34 AM
Maybe instead of taking a first round DT every 3rd year they should take a 3rd or 4th round DT every year until they get two that works? Save the 1st round pick for a less bust-prone position.

Hagar
01-21-2010, 01:55 AM
The only way I would support this is if we move Antonio Smith inside, but who knows if that's the best use of his ability.

Getting another DT is the solution. The fact that we've had two busts at that position is a ridiculously ignorant reason for not addressing it.

Personally, I'm tired of trying to get this done through the draft, its time to bring in a proven free agent. I just don't know if its a prudent move given the current market for DT.

m5kwatts
01-21-2010, 02:20 AM
Maybe instead of taking a first round DT every 3rd year they should take a 3rd or 4th round DT every year until they get two that works? Save the 1st round pick for a less bust-prone position.

I've heard scouts suggest this approach with QBs too, figure if you take one in the mid to late rounds every year you'll hit on one every 4 years or so....and even if you have a franchise QB you can spin em off for more picks later... Green Bay comes to mind as a team that has subscribed to this (Aaron Brooks, Matt Hasselbeck)

TimeKiller
01-21-2010, 08:58 AM
If they're going for line help with the 1st round pick I hope it's OL and not DL.

HuttoKarl
01-21-2010, 09:28 AM
The only way I would support this is if we move Antonio Smith inside, but who knows if that's the best use of his ability.

Getting another DT is the solution. The fact that we've had two busts at that position is a ridiculously ignorant reason for not addressing it.

I wouldn't say Amobi is a bust. He's not the guy that takes up two blockers, but the guy who capitalizes off of it. He needs someone solid next to him to allow him to shoot through. Bigass DT is a HUGE priority this offseason.

BigBull17
01-21-2010, 09:42 AM
Rush the edge and then what, over pursue? That's what Mario's doing right now because we don't have pressure up the middle.

Ding ding ding. Need someone to put pressure up the middle. And Okoye isn't getting the job done.

I wouldn't say Amobi is a bust. He's not the guy that takes up two blockers, but the guy who capitalizes off of it. He needs someone solid next to him to allow him to shoot through. Bigass DT is a HUGE priority this offseason.

He is a bust. he may still be a decent player with more consistency, but he isn't getting the job done.

HOU-TEX
01-21-2010, 09:53 AM
Personally, I'm tired of trying to get this done through the draft, its time to bring in a proven free agent. I just don't know if its a prudent move given the current market for DT.

Yeah, unfortunately, this season isn't likely going to be the season we'd want to do that. Unless we want a DT that's flicking moth balls out of his butt crack everyday.

As far as the original post is concerned, we had more pressure on the QB this season than any under Kubiaks regime. The front 4 still isn't good enough, but overall, it was better than last year.

Ckw
01-21-2010, 10:56 AM
Call me crazy but I am one that believes the same excuses that are used for DBs (poor play due to lack of a pass rush) should be used for DEs. I can't tell you how many times I saw us get great pressure this season and be so close to getting the sack only to have the QB dump it off for a completion.

We got a ton better when Pollard came in and Quinn helped but overall, our DBs were some of the worst in the league. Just like the DB will have a harder time if the DEs aren't getting any pressure, I really believe the DEs have a much harder time when the DBs are constantly giving the opposition tons of cushion for the QB to complete the pass before the pass rusher can ever get there.

There is a reason football is a TEAM game.

Corrosion
01-22-2010, 11:02 AM
Call me crazy but I am one that believes the same excuses that are used for DBs (poor play due to lack of a pass rush) should be used for DEs. I can't tell you how many times I saw us get great pressure this season and be so close to getting the sack only to have the QB dump it off for a completion.

We got a ton better when Pollard came in and Quinn helped but overall, our DBs were some of the worst in the league. Just like the DB will have a harder time if the DEs aren't getting any pressure, I really believe the DEs have a much harder time when the DBs are constantly giving the opposition tons of cushion for the QB to complete the pass before the pass rusher can ever get there.

There is a reason football is a TEAM game.

I agree with this - rep if I could - The other thing tho is that the QB's were often able to step up in the pocket .... an upgrade at the DT spot might just help solve both problems.

But I think this team has bigger issues elsewhere - OG and FS come to mind. If an OG or FS and DT graded equally at the Texans pick I'd have to take the one I felt filled the biggest need - DT is at least third on my list.

If a player grades out significantly higher than any of these at another position - I think its a no brainer to take the higher graded player or trade back to get value for the pick.

ubecool454
01-24-2010, 08:52 AM
If Vince Wilfork isn't resigned by the Pats lets lock him up and offer up something nice to the Raiders and try to get Richard Seymour in here.

thunderkyss
01-24-2010, 09:09 AM
I wouldn't say Amobi is a bust. He's not the guy that takes up two blockers, but the guy who capitalizes off of it. He needs someone solid next to him to allow him to shoot through. Bigass DT is a HUGE priority this offseason.

I think we'll see in 2010 if Amobi is a bust or not. I don't think we have the best tackles on our roster, but Amobi played above his level of competition in 2009, where he did not in 2008 or 2007. To me, I thought he was getting decent penetration most of the year, but he would take the same outside arc the DE would, leaving that big gap in the middle the QB would step up in. If he would go inside more often, I think we would have seen more sacks in 2009. I think it's a coaching thing.

Cody, also played better than TJ. I don't really see a big need to upgrade that position.

However, I have no problem with the Texans drafting a tackle in the second round. I like Barwin, but would much rather keep Smith outside on pass rushing downs. If this class is that deep on DL... we should be able to get something.

Texsker
01-24-2010, 11:57 AM
I think we'll see in 2010 if Amobi is a bust or not. I don't think we have the best tackles on our roster, but Amobi played above his level of competition in 2009, where he did not in 2008 or 2007. To me, I thought he was getting decent penetration most of the year, but he would take the same outside arc the DE would, leaving that big gap in the middle the QB would step up in. If he would go inside more often, I think we would have seen more sacks in 2009. I think it's a coaching thing.

Cody, also played better than TJ. I don't really see a big need to upgrade that position.

However, I have no problem with the Texans drafting a tackle in the second round. I like Barwin, but would much rather keep Smith outside on pass rushing downs. If this class is that deep on DL... we should be able to get something.

Barwin equaled Smith's sack production in limited minutes. Granted, sacks don't tell the whole story, but the kid has a lot of potential and is still very raw. I still have hope that he'll develop into the type of edge rusher the Texans thought they drafted. If he does, then he's a more viable option than Smith on obvious passing downs IMO.

It's very difficult for a rookie to come in and immediately show dominance as a pass rusher against NFL tackles and TEs -- especially for a guy who hasn't played the position for very long. Barwin showed flashes but needs to be more consistent. Hopefully that will come soon.

I'd love to see the Texans go after a premier NT in this draft -- a guy who could collapse the pocket at the midline -- to complement Okoye inside, as well as what could be a solid edge rush from Williams and Barwin next year.

Ole Miss Texan
01-25-2010, 04:01 PM
Here's a question for you X's and O's guys out there. What kind of defense do Bush and the Texans utilize? Obviously it's a base 4-3... but I'd love to hear from you guys that really know about football and discuss the different formations we tend to use. That should be pretty telling as to what kind of Defensive Front we want to have... what kind of DT's we look for, etc.

I would love to have a fat ass nose tackle that takes on two blockers every play but that doesn't mean that's who this team needs. I want a ball hawk free safety to intercept every other pass that's thrown deep but that might not be the 'system' or 'scheme' that we're going to be running.

Getting back to the Pass Rush: My opinion is that we shouldn't be looking at DE in the 1st round. We've got Mario, Smith and Barwin. I can see going after a DT though. Most of us fans want that NT but does the scheme we use require one? Or does it require 2 DT's that penetrate and rush the passer?

Knowing what kind of scheme our defense employs is vital in targeting players that fit! It's the same as looking at OL or RB's for the offense, if they don't fit the ZBS... we're probably not going to take them!

Brisco_County
01-25-2010, 06:21 PM
Here's a question for you X's and O's guys out there. What kind of defense do Bush and the Texans utilize? Obviously it's a base 4-3... but I'd love to hear from you guys that really know about football and discuss the different formations we tend to use. That should be pretty telling as to what kind of Defensive Front we want to have... what kind of DT's we look for, etc.

I would love to have a fat ass nose tackle that takes on two blockers every play but that doesn't mean that's who this team needs. I want a ball hawk free safety to intercept every other pass that's thrown deep but that might not be the 'system' or 'scheme' that we're going to be running.

Getting back to the Pass Rush: My opinion is that we shouldn't be looking at DE in the 1st round. We've got Mario, Smith and Barwin. I can see going after a DT though. Most of us fans want that NT but does the scheme we use require one? Or does it require 2 DT's that penetrate and rush the passer?

Knowing what kind of scheme our defense employs is vital in targeting players that fit! It's the same as looking at OL or RB's for the offense, if they don't fit the ZBS... we're probably not going to take them!

We shouldn't be looking at DE in any round. Our needs there are covered.

We need a big, fast NT that can move the pocket back for the DE's, blow up the center, or create a gap for Okoye to shoot. Right now we have depth at DT, but no exceptional quality.

Ole Miss Texan
01-26-2010, 10:33 AM
We need a big, fast NT that can move the pocket back for the DE's, blow up the center, or create a gap for Okoye to shoot. Right now we have depth at DT, but no exceptional quality.
That's what everybody wants but that's hard to find. Does our scheme call for a big NT to take up blockers? Or does our scheme call for 2 DT's that can shoot the gaps? It'd be awesome to find that 330lb NT that can take on two defenders, stop the run and collapse the pocket all the same... but I'm not holding my breath.

infantrycak
01-26-2010, 10:54 AM
That's what everybody wants but that's hard to find. Does our scheme call for a big NT to take up blockers? Or does our scheme call for 2 DT's that can shoot the gaps? It'd be awesome to find that 330lb NT that can take on two defenders, stop the run and collapse the pocket all the same... but I'm not holding my breath.

I think we would be better off with a DT in the mold of Seth Payne in his prime. 303 lbs but able to take on and push back double teams with some penetration.

Ole Miss Texan
01-27-2010, 11:21 AM
Rush the edge and then what, over pursue? That's what Mario's doing right now because we don't have pressure up the middle.

These stats pretty interesting. Using Pro Football Focus I've sorted the DE rankings by Sacks, Hits and Hurries. Then by adding the top two DE's per team, I've loosely found the Team ranks. Again, going off only their top 2 producing DE's.

Sacks
T-1) MIN - 24
T-1) IND - 24
3) PHI - 22
T-4) 16

Mario Williams was T-6th with 10.
Antonio Smith was T-21st with 6.

Hits
1) MIN - 36
2) HOU - 32

Mario Williams was 3rd with 17.
Antonio Smith was T-5th with 15.

Pressures
1) IND - 78
2) MIN - 70
3) ATL - 69
4) HOU - 59

Mario Williams was T-10th with 29.
Antonio Smith was T-8th with 30.

What you can't tell for Smith is how many of these stats came from when he moved inside to DT so these don't mean they are strictly from the DE position.

I did a quick sort through the DT rankings but they looked terrible as a team. Amobi's stats on his own were solid but not great. He had 2 sacks (t-20th), 5 hits (t-12th) and 21 pressures (4th). So despite popular belief, Amobi actually got pretty good pressure.

Even if we give the DT position the benifit of the doubt and say much of Antonio Smith's stats came when he moved in side and was paired with Amobi... we did pretty good. However, I think that's far from the case and adding a full time DT that can get consistent pressure would really make this DL take off. At the very least, it will keep everyone fresh through rotation to make a real difference.

Whether this is addressed through FA or the Draft, time will tell. But I think it's vital for this Defense to be ELITE. It will be interesting to see how Kubiak/Smith/Bush feel about it. Additionally, Amobi Okoye is our only DT that is currently signed passed the 2010 season. I suspect Cody will probably get re-signed, Jeff Zgonina keeps on trucking but he's not getting any younger (40 yrs old) and although I love having Deljuan on the team, we have to pay him if we want him to stay or else he's leaving. Suddenly our depth looks terrible.

HJam72
01-29-2010, 10:46 PM
I don't think it ever hurts any scheme to have a large, disruptive NT moving the midline backwards, but that may not be what some coaches look for...

My opinion, if you're ever going to go for pure brawn over anything else, then where else but NT??? SO DO IT.

CloakNNNdagger
01-29-2010, 11:26 PM
We shouldn't be looking at DE in any round. Our needs there are covered.

We need a big, fast NT that can move the pocket back for the DE's, blow up the center, or create a gap for Okoye to shoot. Right now we have depth at DT, but no exceptional quality.

Such a player (as close to perfect) might exist. I've watched Tenessee NT Dan williams (6-3, 327)...........unbelievable motor and doesn't take off plays. Just one example of his profile.

The 2010 draft is one of the deepest in terms of defensive talent in quite some time—especially in the trenches. Tennessee’s season has been somewhat of a disappointment this year. But if it wasn’t for Big Dan Williams plugging up the middle Coach Kiffin’s seat would be a bit hotter.

Reminds us a little of NFL nose tackle Shaun Rogers where he may not consistently show up on the stat sheet or with post-season accolades. Instead he’ll clog up the middle of the field taking on two, sometimes three, opposing lineman or running backs freeing up the skill positions to make plays. Dan Williams isn’t going to overly excite fans of whichever team calls his name but he’s going to please his future coaching staff as a dependable two-down lineman.

A few teams have aging stalwarts in the middle of their defensive line that could be looking to add somebody of William’s character, work ethic and most importantly, sheer size.

Link (http://www.mynfldraft.com/NFL-Draft-Profiles/2010/Dan-Williams)

You might also check out this VIDEO INTERVIEW (http://www.squidoo.com/NFLDRAFT2010#module75271271) #13

bckey
01-31-2010, 10:52 AM
I think Dan Williams would be a great pick at 20. Not sure if the Texans will go the dt route but it is a position of need and one of the deepest dt classes in a few years. It could be cb, s, ol, dt or maybe even rb or wr if Spiller or Bryant were to somehow fall to us. Yeah right. I think the Texans would really like a cb or s but I'm not sure there will be one worthy of the 19th or 20th pick when it comes around. Maybe Earl Thomas or Donovan Warren.

I think that the Texans will take a look at Karlos Dansby from the Cardinals because of the Frank Bush connection. He may be expensive but the Texans have a lot of money coming off the books and an uncapped year. What an awesome linebacker corps we would have. Triple terror.

steelbtexan
01-31-2010, 01:27 PM
After D.Williams Sr.Bowl performance I doubt that he will be available at 20.

I was also checking out Jared Odrick from Penn St. He had a great week of practice. He also was very disruptive during the game.

He has been the solid rock of the Penn St. DL for 2 yrs. The double teams that he absorbed made a 1 trick pony (Maybin) alot of money in last years draft.

If I were drafting for the Texans at 20 he would get some serious consideration.

steelbtexan
01-31-2010, 01:29 PM
Double post

Edit

Lucky
01-31-2010, 02:23 PM
These stats pretty interesting. Using Pro Football Focus I've sorted the DE rankings by Sacks, Hits and Hurries.
I don't want to take the thread into a tangent, but I just can't take the analysis from web sites like Pro Football Focus or Football Outsiders as gospel. Especially, when it doesn't jibe with what I actually see on the field. Yes, they have a web site. Yes, they have statistics (not necessarily official statistics). Inevitably, someone like you or me who may or may not watch the game closely has to input those statistics. It can be a case of garbage in, garbage out.

Arky
01-31-2010, 04:36 PM
I don't want to take the thread into a tangent, but I just can't take the analysis from web sites like Pro Football Focus or Football Outsiders as gospel. Especially, when it doesn't jibe with what I actually see on the field. Yes, they have a web site. Yes, they have statistics (not necessarily official statistics). Inevitably, someone like you or me who may or may not watch the game closely has to input those statistics. It can be a case of garbage in, garbage out.

Spotters. I always picture some 18-19 year old (no offense to 18-19 year olds) on the couch, in front of the DVR, laptop on the coffee table, Patriots baseball cap on backwards, 6-pack of Heineken and funny cigarettes nearby.... ;)

b0ng
01-31-2010, 04:49 PM
I don't want to take the thread into a tangent, but I just can't take the analysis from web sites like Pro Football Focus or Football Outsiders as gospel. Especially, when it doesn't jibe with what I actually see on the field. Yes, they have a web site. Yes, they have statistics (not necessarily official statistics). Inevitably, someone like you or me who may or may not watch the game closely has to input those statistics. It can be a case of garbage in, garbage out.

Why it'd almost be like taking analysis from here as gospel! :specnatz: