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awtysst
01-20-2010, 03:34 PM
As always it is fun to see what "The Great Pumba" of Mocking has to say.
He just put his first, first round mock. Anyone with Insider Access here? I am curious as to who he has the Texans take. And, if it is not too much trouble, if you could also include picks 15-25 that would be great.
Thanks!

JB
01-20-2010, 03:44 PM
Kiper's first Mock with comments for you.


Things certainly will change as the workout season commences, but it's time to get the ball rolling for the 2010 NFL draft. Remember that my Big Board and position group rankings (now adjusted so all declared players are grouped) are a good primer. That said, off we go.
Two things that stand out early in the first mock draft of the season are the degree to which the first round is dominated by underclassmen -- they make up 21 of the 32 picks -- and how we're seeing a truly deep class of defensive linemen. Even though many NFL teams now employ the 3-4, the options up front for either 4-3 or 3-4 defenses are pretty significant in this draft.

St. Louis Rams
Record: 1-15
Ndamukong Suh, DT, Nebraska
Nobody questions that the top need for the Rams is a quarterback. But unless St. Louis trades down -- an extremely difficult proposition on multiple levels -- it shouldn't take a quarterback with its first pick. Suh is maybe the most dominating defensive tackle I've seen in 32 years of doing this. He can be effective immediately for the Rams, and they may address the QB with a trade.

Detroit Lions
Record: 2-14
Gerald McCoy*, DT, Oklahoma
Getting McCoy both fills a big need for the Lions and is an extraordinarily good consolation prize for any team unable to get Suh. McCoy makes his living in opponents' backfields and is such a talent he could have landed in this position last year had he declared as a redshirt sophomore.

Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Record: 3-13
Eric Berry*, S, Tennessee
This is very early for a safety to go off the board, but Berry is that kind of talent. A player compared often (not unfairly) to Ed Reed, Berry is a difference-making safety headed to a league that has seen those types (Reed, Troy Polamalu, Bob Sanders) become more and more prevalent in recent years.

Washington Redskins
Record: 4-12
Sam Bradford*, QB, Oklahoma
Mike Shanahan and the Redskins can get a quarterback here who might have been the top player taken had he opted to come out last year. The Redskins need to find their franchise quarterback, and when healthy, Bradford is an exceptionally accurate passer with an underrated arm. Shanahan also hit on his last QB selection when he drafted Jay Cutler in Denver.

Kansas City Chiefs
Record: 4-12
Russell Okung, OT, Oklahoma State
I think the Chiefs could use help at safety as well, but Berry likely won't fall this far, and they'd be reaching on either of the two other safeties with first-round grades. Okung could solve two problems, making him a good value -- he could step in at LT and allow the Chiefs to move Brandon Albert to the right side. A pick that can pay immediate dividends for the Chiefs.

Seattle Seahawks
Record: 5-11
Derrick Morgan*, DE, Georgia Tech
Many in Seattle will view the offensive line as a greater need, but Morgan fills another huge hole for a team that simply couldn't get to the quarterback in 2009. He represents great value because he can rush the passer, is productive against the run and can even drop back -- a versatile talent. Pete Carroll knows defense and should love what Morgan can offer.

Cleveland Browns
Record: 5-11
Joe Haden*, CB, Florida
I'm not convinced the Browns will be willing to draft a quarterback simply because the position is unsettled. In Haden, they can't go wrong with by far the top CB on the board, a player they can plug in from day one. A deft cover corner and great tackler, Haden is the total package.

Oakland Raiders
Record: 5-11
Anthony Davis*, OT, Rutgers
Davis might not be the most complete tackle in the first round just yet, but he is the most naturally gifted and should get better. Great feet, ideal size and he has the ability to maul defenders in the run game. After a whiff in the first round last year, the Raiders should address a big need here.

Buffalo Bills
Record: 6-10
Jimmy Clausen*, QB, Notre Dame
People will debate Clausen's merits long after he shakes the commissioner's hand, but he has continued to improve, has displayed toughness, has an NFL arm and, perhaps most importantly, has experience under center in a pro-style offense. That was a key for Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez, and is a huge consideration for scouts.

Denver Broncos (from Chicago)
Record: 7-9
Dez Bryant*, WR, Oklahoma State
In all likelihood, Brandon Marshall is headed elsewhere, so the Broncos will attempt to fill the void with the best deep threat in the draft. Bryant has great size and was unstoppable in the Big 12. He represents an immediate weapon in the passing game.

Jacksonville Jaguars
Record: 7-9
Jason Pierre-Paul*, DE, South Florida
This is no place to draft a guy like Tim Tebow just to sell tickets. Pierre-Paul could be the Mario Williams of this draft class, a raw talent but one with remarkable athleticism and an incredible burst off the line. Could be a terror for QBs in the future and maybe he's local enough for some.

Miami Dolphins
Record:7-9
Rolando McClain*, LB, Alabama
A potential home run for Miami, a team that needs an inside linebacker and could get the best one in the whole draft after the top 10. The Dolphins also could go after Bryant if he were to fall to them here, because they also must address WR.

San Francisco 49ers
Record: 8-8
Trent Williams, OT, Oklahoma
I consider the right tackle position a big need for the 49ers, and getting Williams here should strengthen them immediately both in the run game and as they look to further develop a potentially dangerous passing game with Michael Crabtree and Vernon Davis.

Seattle Seahawks (from Denver)
Record: 5-11
C.J. Spiller, RB, Clemson
He's not an offensive lineman, but Spiller could be a Reggie Bush-like option for the Seahawks. For a coach uniquely familiar with what Bush can do, Spiller is a missing home run threat in the run game, a good receiver and a valuable returner. Fans will want O-line help, and I'd expect it in Round 2.

New York Giants
Record: 8-8
Carlos Dunlap*, DE, Florida
This is a high-value pick for the Giants, whose defensive line depth I feel has been overstated. There are makeup questions surrounding Dunlap, but for much of this past season, he was considered the premier pass-rusher in the college game. He has the potential to be like Jevon Kearse.

San Francisco 49ers (from Carolina)
Record: 8-8
Earl Thomas*, S, Texas
The 49ers need help in pass coverage, and Thomas fits because he's a great value here, whereas reaching for a CB at No. 16 wouldn't represent good value at all. Thomas isn't a huge guy but can cover a tremendous amount of real estate.

Tennessee Titans
Record: 8-8
Everson Griffen*, DE, USC
Pierre-Paul likely won't fall this far, so the Titans get a gifted underclassman who looked like a pro coming out of high school and now is living up to his potential. He already has an NFL frame, and when Griffen is consistent, he's a strong pass-rusher.

Pittsburgh Steelers
Record: 9-7
Bryan Bulaga*, OT, Iowa
Pittsburgh clearly needs help up front if it wants to return to power running and protecting the quarterback, and Bulaga is an emerging tackle with great feet from a pro-style system. The Steelers will improve immediately, and he wears the black and gold well already.

Atlanta Falcons
Record: 9-7
Sergio Kindle, OLB, Texas
The Falcons could use some help at OLB, and Kindle's continued improvement throughout the season is appealing. He's not quite in the class of Brian Orakpo, but he is a similar type of player and has proved to be very physical.

Houston Texans
Record: 9-7
Brian Price*, DT, UCLA
Price is hidden away a bit in such a deep class of defensive linemen, but he's a disruptive force who utilizes great leverage. He should add depth to an improving defense.

Cincinnati Bengals
Record: 10-6
Aaron Hernandez*, TE, Florida
They need to give Carson Palmer options in the passing game aside from who already is there, and Hernandez is the most athletic TE available, a guy with surprising run-after-catch ability. The favorite target of Tebow at Florida, he could offer immediate help in the passing game.

New England Patriots
Record: 10-6
Ricky Sapp, OLB, Clemson
The Patriots clearly need help when it comes to getting to opposing quarterbacks, and Sapp is an ideal fit on the edge in the 3-4. He's the kind of athlete who can adjust to being upright and flat-out knows how to get to the quarterback.

Green Bay Packers
Record: 11-5
Taylor Mays, S, USC
If you had told Green Bay in August that it could get Mays at No. 23 overall, the Packers would have been thrilled. An extraordinary athlete, Mays might have suffered against expectations, but the Pack hit a home run with Clay Matthews Jr. out of USC last year, and Mays both fills a need and has great potential.

Philadelphia Eagles
Record: 11-5
Navorro Bowman*, OLB, Penn State
The Eagles need an athletic OLB, and they get a lot of value by landing Bowman here. Bowman lacks size, but any parsing on measurables can't overcome his great play on film. Could end up as the best at his position in this class.

Baltimore Ravens
Record: 9-7
Jermaine Gresham*, TE, Oklahoma
Gresham is so good that while he sat out his junior year, I left him on the Big Board the whole time. Now healthy, he's a great find this late in the first round and a perfect target for Joe Flacco as an heir to Todd Heap. At a hair over 6-6 and 262 pounds, he's the total package at TE.

Arizona Cardinals
Record: 10-6
Dan Williams, DT, Tennessee
I see this position as the second-biggest need for the Cardinals, and Williams is a great value here. Tremendously strong in the lower body, he is a disruptive force against the run.

Dallas Cowboys
Record: 11-5
Bruce Campbell*, OT, Maryland
Jerry Jones knows he needs to address the tackle position after the debacle he witnessed against Minnesota in the divisional round of the playoffs, and Campbell, while still learning, is a tremendous talent at this position.

San Diego Chargers
Record: 13-3
Jonathan Dwyer*, RB, Georgia Tech
With the possible departure of LaDainian Tomlinson on the horizon, Dwyer represents the player who can handle 20-plus carries in an offense that already has a great speed back in Darren Sproles. Dwyer has ideal size and shows explosiveness.

New York Jets
Record: 9-7
Golden Tate*, WR, Notre Dame
The Jets must give Mark Sanchez some weapons in the passing game, and while Tate has question marks on his ability to separate, he is more physical than many think and has always been a playmaker. In the mold of Laveranues Coles.

Minnesota Vikings
Record: 12-4
Patrick Robinson, CB, Florida State
Need meets value here. Robinson is the second-best corner in the draft, and Minnesota should be happy to grab him this late. Robinson has the chance to step in and contribute.

New Orleans Saints
Record: 13-3
Jared Odrick, DT, Penn State
Odrick is an ideal pick here for the Saints, who are looking to add stability to the rush defense. His presence helped standout LBs Bowman and Sean Lee run free up in Happy Valley, and the Saints will ask for the same.

Indianapolis Colts
Record: 14-2
Brandon Graham, DE, Michigan
Graham was a one-man show for the Wolverines, leading the nation in tackles for loss as a senior. Always in the backfield, he's a guy who can learn under master pass-rushers in Indy and build on the tradition. He's been on my Big Board all year, so a good value this late.
* -- Draft-eligible junior/redshirt sophomore

Wolf6151
01-20-2010, 03:57 PM
I sure hope he's wrong. If that were the way the draft fell, I'd rather have Dan Williams.

Ole Miss Texan
01-20-2010, 04:02 PM
Doesn't he know we want Earl Thomas? Why doesn't he just move some picks around so we can have him?
Gosh come on Kiper.... :)

badboy
01-20-2010, 04:20 PM
I'd call Jerry Jones and ask if he wants to swap and get FS Mays before Green Bay. We get a 3rd and I select RB Gerhart who will not be there in 2nd round. Asamoah in 2nd for my LG 3A Kyle Wilson CB or Jerome Murphy CB 3B Chad Jones FS LSU or Akwasi Owusu-Ansah FS/CB 4th Baylor center Walton

HuttoKarl
01-20-2010, 04:35 PM
Does anyone else think that part Native American Sam Bradford would be a Redskin is sorta funny???

Texecutioner
01-20-2010, 04:44 PM
Doesn't he know we want Earl Thomas? Why doesn't he just move some picks around so we can have him?
Gosh come on Kiper.... :)

You and I do. We don't know that the Texans do though. The safety position never seems to be high on their radar for 1st round picks though. They passed on Michael Griffin a few years ago who would have been an excellent pick at the time. Hopefully, they'll see something in Earl Thomas.

Goldensilence
01-20-2010, 04:50 PM
I'd call Jerry Jones and ask if he wants to swap and get FS Mays before Green Bay. We get a 3rd and I select RB Gerhart who will not be there in 2nd round. Asamoah in 2nd for my LG 3A Kyle Wilson CB or Jerome Murphy CB 3B Chad Jones FS LSU or Akwasi Owusu-Ansah FS/CB 4th Baylor center Walton

Would be extremely disappointed if we took a DT in the first this year. Will Price be effective from the first snap he takes? Really hard to tell with DTs.

I think it's a high risk pick and we're in a position next year where we are facing a brutal schedule on paper and we're going to need someone to make a hands down immediate impact with our first rounder.

I like the trade idea proposal here. Except I feel unless Gerhart blows it up in the combine and pro day he'll be there in the second when our next pick comes up. I however, feel like Iupati wouldn't be there so he'd be my first round pick. Set him at one of the guards, get a push for our OL, we'd have a strong backfield of Slaton, Gerhart and Foster. Who knows maybe Jeremiah Johnson will be back healthy and make a case for himself at the third spot.

I'd throw money at Casey Hampton in FA and/or just look for a big body later in the draft. If only this staff could figure out how to get a fire under Okam.

Texecutioner
01-20-2010, 04:58 PM
I'd throw money at Casey Hampton in FA and/or just look for a big body later in the draft. If only this staff could figure out how to get a fire under Okam.

I've wanted the Texans to try and seek a trade to get Sean Rodgers for years now. Detroit traded him for not that much and Cleveland was rumored to have had him on the block last season. As great as he is, the Browns are far from being any real contender for a long time or at least two seasons and with picks, they could build their team up better that way. I'd love for the Texans to try and make a trade to get Sean Rogers. The guy is a freaking beast at DT and I'd have no problems giving up a 2nd rounder and other picks or a player possibly for him.

BigTimeTexanFan
01-20-2010, 05:21 PM
Houston Texans
Record: 9-7
Brian Price*, DT, UCLA

"Price is hidden away a bit in such a deep class of defensive linemen, but he's a disruptive force who utilizes great leverage. He should add depth to an improving defense."


Who the hell drafts in the first round to add depth?

thunderkyss
01-20-2010, 05:46 PM
Houston Texans
Record: 9-7
Brian Price*, DT, UCLA

"Price is hidden away a bit in such a deep class of defensive linemen, but he's a disruptive force who utilizes great leverage. He should add depth to an improving defense."


Who the hell drafts in the first round to add depth?

I was thinking the same thing. Is he saying we're so loaded with Talent that we can just mail this one in? He's got the Saints taking a guy to start on their DL much later in the draft...

Or is he saying we're that screwed up?

The Pencil Neck
01-20-2010, 05:57 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Is he saying we're so loaded with Talent that we can just mail this one in? He's got the Saints taking a guy to start on their DL much later in the draft...

Or is he saying we're that screwed up?

He thinks Casserly is still our GM.

Jackie Chiles
01-20-2010, 06:59 PM
The way that his mock played out Price is a great pick. Would be tough to pass up Mays but it would have been between those two if I was pulling the trigger. Surprised he doesn't have Iupati going later in the first as well. Will be interesting to see if we get a shot at Earl Thomas in the actual draft because he would be perfect for this team.

texdawg
01-20-2010, 07:24 PM
I've wanted the Texans to try and seek a trade to get Sean Rodgers for years now. Detroit traded him for not that much and Cleveland was rumored to have had him on the block last season. As great as he is, the Browns are far from being any real contender for a long time or at least two seasons and with picks, they could build their team up better that way. I'd love for the Texans to try and make a trade to get Sean Rogers. The guy is a freaking beast at DT and I'd have no problems giving up a 2nd rounder and other picks or a player possibly for him.

Rogers finished the season on IR with an ankle or leg injury. Some fans believed the run defense improved after he was out of the rotation.

I believe the Browns gave a 3rd round pick and a DB (Boden ??). There has been some buzz about the Browns looking to trade him. Some of us, myself included, want him moved to DE in the 3-4 line. Rogers is a disruptive upfield bullrusher. His problem though is that his aggressive play takes him out of too many plays. Its like the O-line lets him go where he wants to go then just runs it where he has vacated.

He probably has a good 2-3 yrs left. He could probably be had for the Texans 2nd round pick. IMO, not worth a 2nd rounder. His replacement Rubin, I believe, was a 6th round pick.

texdawg
01-20-2010, 07:43 PM
Rogers finished the season on IR with an ankle or leg injury. Some fans believed the run defense improved after he was out of the rotation.

I believe the Browns gave a 3rd round pick and a DB (Boden ??). There has been some buzz about the Browns looking to trade him. Some of us, myself included, want him moved to DE in the 3-4 line. Rogers is a disruptive upfield bullrusher. His problem though is that his aggressive play takes him out of too many plays. Its like the O-line lets him go where he wants to go then just runs it where he has vacated.

He probably has a good 2-3 yrs left. He could probably be had for the Texans 2nd round pick. IMO, not worth a 2nd rounder. His replacement Rubin, I believe, was a 6th round pick.

A better fit might be Corey Williams 6'4 320. He played DT for Green Bay in their 4-3 and was very successful. The Browns in their typical dumbassery gave a 2nd round pick for him and changed his position to DE in 3-4. He has not been as productive as a DE. He needs to move back to a DT in 4-3. He is younger and would be worth a 2nd round pick. A proven starter that wants to play DT not DE.

Sorry about being a little off thread topic-just wanted to pass on this info.

beerlover
01-20-2010, 08:11 PM
One week ago when I did my first mock also noticed about 20 picks were underclassman. We actually agree on 9 picks while needs in most other cases match up there is a difference in ranking.

He seems to focus on broad needs of teams over specific player profiles who fit teams character & scheme not to mention changing of HC & staffs. Then he pulls a couple shockers out of the hat :kitten: for kicks I guess.

I feel ahead of him at this point but that could change when he actually does a little more research :specnatz:

ArlingtonTexan
01-20-2010, 08:35 PM
One week ago when I did my first mock also noticed about 20 picks were underclassman. We actually agree on 9 picks while needs in most other cases match up there is a difference in ranking.

He seems to focus on broad needs of teams over specific player profiles who fit teams character & scheme not to mention changing of HC & staffs. Then he pulls a couple shockers out of the hat :kitten: for kicks I guess.

I feel ahead of him at this point but that could change when he actually does a little more research :specnatz:

Kiper is a needs drafter for the most part. he only goes a team should draft BPA when they a ton of weaknesses or no obvious weaknesses. Some of his best and worst moments are when he reacts to teams not drafting someone he believes is a need.

On the Price pick, it is more probably that Price is not there at 19/20 than anything. Highly productive quick penatrating DT. For what seems to be the style that Texans currently want in the DL, he is a good fit. While we fans have clamored for a really big fat guy, the current administration wants guys that move even if they have some size. Dan williams seems to have that mobilty with decent size, but may run a bit hot and cold. I would be shocked if a Terrance Cody type winds up a Texans as long as Frank Bush is DC.

Texan4Ever
01-20-2010, 11:02 PM
I don't care how good Price is, I don't want him. He stands at 6'2" 300-lbs and is another Amobi Okoye, a UT. Give me a space eater a la Kris Jenkins or Casey Hampton but other then that I don't want us going DT.

Is it only me or does anyone else think Gerald McCoy is overrated as a prospect. He may be a good DT one-on-one against a guard but he struggles with double teams and gets taken out of the action often and I think he has serious bust potential.

ArlingtonTexan
01-20-2010, 11:09 PM
I don't care how good Price is, I don't want him. He stands at 6'2" 300-lbs and is another Amobi Okoye, a UT. Give me a space eater a la Kris Jenkins or Casey Hampton but other then that I don't want us going DT.

Is it only me or does anyone else think Gerald McCoy is overrated as a prospect. He may be a good DT one-on-one against a guard but he struggles with double teams and gets taken out of the action often and I think he has serious bust potential.

So if Price turns out to be a Hall of Famer, screw it I want a big fat guy just because?

Texan4Ever
01-20-2010, 11:50 PM
So if Price turns out to be a Hall of Famer, screw it I want a big fat guy just because?

No, my reasoning is this: we have invested in Amobi Okoye and adding Price won't help matters unless you want Okoye taking on two blockers and letting Price shoot the gaps then go ahead. Actually, this might work considering that Okoye has been gaining weight and is going towards 320-lbs range.

WolverineFan
01-21-2010, 01:22 AM
No, my reasoning is this: we have invested in Amobi Okoye and adding Price won't help matters unless you want Okoye taking on two blockers and letting Price shoot the gaps then go ahead. Actually, this might work considering that Okoye has been gaining weight and is going towards 320-lbs range.

You don't need a 350 lb NT to stop the run. If you didn't notice the D did just fine last year stuffing the run. We were 10th in rush yds against and 14th in avg yds per carry against. That's a little above average. We did that while in the 1st year of a new system that included us giving up 250 rush yds a game in the first 3 games of the season. This defense proved they can stop the run w/o a 360 lb guy in the middle. We actually had a top 10 defense during the last 2 months of the season, but injuries on offense, turnovers, and redzone inconsistency doomed us once again.

We run a 4-3, not a 3-4. A NT is not a necessity. This obsession with it is getting quite annoying actually. Price had an excellent career in college and he can play at the pro level. If he can shoot gaps and make plays then that's all we need. Besides, if one of the DT's is eating a double team then that leaves Demeco & Co. free to make plays. I can live with that.

Also, about the whole depth thing. I doubt he would be on the field every snap. DT's add depth because they are always rotating. At least that's my interpretation of Kiper's analysis.

mussop
01-21-2010, 01:53 AM
You don't need a 350 lb NT to stop the run. If you didn't notice the D did just fine last year stuffing the run. We were 10th in rush yds against and 14th in avg yds per carry against. That's a little above average. We did that while in the 1st year of a new system that included us giving up 250 rush yds a game in the first 3 games of the season. This defense proved they can stop the run w/o a 360 lb guy in the middle. We actually had a top 10 defense during the last 2 months of the season, but injuries on offense, turnovers, and redzone inconsistency doomed us once again.

We run a 4-3, not a 3-4. A NT is not a necessity. This obsession with it is getting quite annoying actually. Price had an excellent career in college and he can play at the pro level. If he can shoot gaps and make plays then that's all we need. Besides, if one of the DT's is eating a double team then that leaves Demeco & Co. free to make plays. I can live with that.

Also, about the whole depth thing. I doubt he would be on the field every snap. DT's add depth because they are always rotating. At least that's my interpretation of Kiper's analysis.

REP!


I Agree with everything you said. Its obvious that Smithiaks idea of winning football is having a high powered offense and a speedy defense that flies around the ball and can get after the QB. As for the bolded part, you can never have enough talent in the trenches.

Corrosion
01-21-2010, 08:26 AM
REP!


I Agree with everything you said. Its obvious that Smithiaks idea of winning football is having a high powered offense and a speedy defense that flies around the ball and can get after the QB. As for the bolded part, you can never have enough talent in the trenches.

Just seems like they ALMOST get to the QB very consistantly.

A step short on so many occasions .... Why ? I havent figured it out.

infantrycak
01-21-2010, 08:43 AM
Just seems like they ALMOST get to the QB very consistantly.

A step short on so many occasions .... Why ? I havent figured it out.

We play in a tough division with Garrard and VY as very mobile QBs and Manning as the best in the NFL at getting the ball out. For a little perspective though, Manning was sacked 10 times this year - 4 of them by the Texans. So we got to Manning 4 times in 2 games and the rest of the league got to him 6 times in 14 games.

Section516
01-21-2010, 08:46 AM
It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

:scarygirl:

gtexan02
01-21-2010, 09:06 AM
Given how successful we've been at drafting defensive lineman so far in the 1st round (Babin - fail, TJ - fail, Okoye - fail, Williams - success), it'll only take us 10-12 more years before we've got a nice DL going!

I really, really hope we don't use a low 1st rounder to draft a DT. Every year there are 2-4 "can't miss" DT prospects that go in the 1st. I really, really don't want one this year

BigBull17
01-21-2010, 09:31 AM
I've wanted the Texans to try and seek a trade to get Sean Rodgers for years now. Detroit traded him for not that much and Cleveland was rumored to have had him on the block last season. As great as he is, the Browns are far from being any real contender for a long time or at least two seasons and with picks, they could build their team up better that way. I'd love for the Texans to try and make a trade to get Sean Rogers. The guy is a freaking beast at DT and I'd have no problems giving up a 2nd rounder and other picks or a player possibly for him.

Sean Rodgers is a turd.

mussop
01-21-2010, 10:00 AM
Given how successful we've been at drafting defensive lineman so far in the 1st round (Babin - fail, TJ - fail, Okoye - fail, Williams - success), it'll only take us 10-12 more years before we've got a nice DL going!

I really, really hope we don't use a low 1st rounder to draft a DT. Every year there are 2-4 "can't miss" DT prospects that go in the 1st. I really, really don't want one this year

LZ Quote (http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2010/01/nfl_draft_2010_anthony_dixon_w.html) After talking with some scouts and personnel mean over the years, I'm starting to realize that you can never have enough good defensive linemen and you should never stop trying to build your defensive line until you have been successful. I still believe pass rushing is a major need for the Texans whether it comes from the DE or DT spot.

dalemurphy
01-21-2010, 10:41 AM
Just seems like they ALMOST get to the QB very consistantly.

A step short on so many occasions .... Why ? I havent figured it out.


I think it's because of the simplicity we had to run on defense this year. Trying to implement a new system with new players and starting a rookie at LB and CB, while also starting a SS that wasn't even with the team until week 2 forced Bush to keep things very simple.

Next season, Bush will be able to do with with disguising of coverage, etc... and that will cause the QBs to hold on to the ball too long more often. I think this defense should take a significant jump in year two. Barring significant injury issues, I think we're looking at a top 5 defense!

badboy
01-21-2010, 12:58 PM
Would be extremely disappointed if we took a DT in the first this year. Will Price be effective from the first snap he takes? Really hard to tell with DTs.

I think it's a high risk pick and we're in a position next year where we are facing a brutal schedule on paper and we're going to need someone to make a hands down immediate impact with our first rounder.

I like the trade idea proposal here. Except I feel unless Gerhart blows it up in the combine and pro day he'll be there in the second when our next pick comes up. I however, feel like Iupati wouldn't be there so he'd be my first round pick. Set him at one of the guards, get a push for our OL, we'd have a strong backfield of Slaton, Gerhart and Foster. Who knows maybe Jeremiah Johnson will be back healthy and make a case for himself at the third spot.

I'd throw money at Casey Hampton in FA and/or just look for a big body later in the draft. If only this staff could figure out how to get a fire under Okam.Beerlover is pushing a DT that is big, strong and fast for 4th round. I think Dwyer, CJ Spiller,Gerhart will be gone by our 2nd pick. Best and ANd Matthews could be there but not the "bigger"back that I want. Anthony Dixon is more my style and has a better chance of being at round #2. Most of us that are Gerhart fans are hoping he does not blow up at combine. I agree that Iupati is good but y concern is a 16 games schedule at his size. I think Gerhart is better than all backs with closest being Dwyer who will prob go ahead of TG. Iupati is not that much better than Asamoah 6'4"315 5.08 and comes from a ZBS. If it was a guarantee we could get TG in 2nd and Earl Thomas gone in first, I would prob take Iupati #20 & hope he keeps his wind and does not get injured 2nd half of season. JJ is an unknown quantity & needs to worry about making the roster.

badboy
01-21-2010, 01:09 PM
It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

:scarygirl:and that is why I'm a lover not a fighter.

mussop
01-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Beerlover is pushing a DT that is big, strong and fast for 4th round. I think Dwyer, CJ Spiller,Gerhart will be gone by our 2nd pick. Best and ANd Matthews could be there but not the "bigger"back that I want. Anthony Dixon is more my style and has a better chance of being at round #2. Most of us that are Gerhart fans are hoping he does not blow up at combine. I agree that Iupati is good but y concern is a 16 games schedule at his size. I think Gerhart is better than all backs with closest being Dwyer who will prob go ahead of TG. Iupati is not that much better than Asamoah 6'4"315 5.08 and comes from a ZBS. If it was a guarantee we could get TG in 2nd and Earl Thomas gone in first, I would prob take Iupati #20 & hope he keeps his wind and does not get injured 2nd half of season. JJ is an unknown quantity & needs to worry about making the roster.

Why is that a concern?

Goldensilence
01-21-2010, 01:56 PM
Beerlover is pushing a DT that is big, strong and fast for 4th round. I think Dwyer, CJ Spiller,Gerhart will be gone by our 2nd pick. Best and ANd Matthews could be there but not the "bigger"back that I want. Anthony Dixon is more my style and has a better chance of being at round #2. Most of us that are Gerhart fans are hoping he does not blow up at combine. I agree that Iupati is good but y concern is a 16 games schedule at his size. I think Gerhart is better than all backs with closest being Dwyer who will prob go ahead of TG. Iupati is not that much better than Asamoah 6'4"315 5.08 and comes from a ZBS. If it was a guarantee we could get TG in 2nd and Earl Thomas gone in first, I would prob take Iupati #20 & hope he keeps his wind and does not get injured 2nd half of season. JJ is an unknown quantity & needs to worry about making the roster.

I guess it comes down to some people having preferences for a stout defense or a potent offense. In today's NFL it's difficult to have both.

Myself, I'm just a let's get into the playoffs guy, that's why I think we should go ahead and top off our offense because it's real close to being elite. We just have to stop settling for FG tries and put it in the endzone.

Agree that Spiller and Dwyer will likely be gone in the first. Gerhart's going to have to blow up at the combine IMO to get selected in the first and a few teams might find value in him early second. For him it's not going to be his 40 time that places him in the draft, it's likely to be the agility tests. I'm inclined to believe though that he'll likely be there with our second pick.

For where we are picking if Thomas is there that's probably the only defensive player I'd be happy with. I'd be majorly upset with taking a DT even if we traded down a few slots. Looking at next year's schedule it's important to hit the ground running. We're going absolutely need big contributions from our first and second round picks. Can't afford project picks this year.

steelbtexan
01-21-2010, 02:06 PM
i've already given my plan as to what I would try to do in another thread.

but

I'm begining to warm to the idea of taking Dan Williams in the 1st. U of Tenn DT's historically have had a low bust rate. (Haynesworth,Henderson for ex.)

Kyle Calloway is an OL that Smithiak should be looking at in the 3rd. He is a big mobile guy that played in a ZBS at Iowa. Calloway can play anywhere on the OL but LT. He played OG in his bowl game against Ga.Tech and was quite impressive in the run game as well as pass protection.

badboy
01-21-2010, 02:07 PM
Why is that a concern?a 6'5"330 probably more by game 1 rookie used to playing 12-13 games against college guys has to go up against NFL DEs and LBs for 16 games? You don't see that as a concern? Look at Duane Brown for example his rookie year. He ran out of gas very early and that was with Salaam spelling him every other series initially.

badboy
01-21-2010, 02:13 PM
I guess it comes down to some people having preferences for a stout defense or a potent offense. In today's NFL it's difficult to have both.

Myself, I'm just a let's get into the playoffs guy, that's why I think we should go ahead and top off our offense because it's real close to being elite. We just have to stop settling for FG tries and put it in the endzone.

Agree that Spiller and Dwyer will likely be gone in the first. Gerhart's going to have to blow up at the combine IMO to get selected in the first and a few teams might find value in him early second. For him it's not going to be his 40 time that places him in the draft, it's likely to be the agility tests. I'm inclined to believe though that he'll likely be there with our second pick.

For where we are picking if Thomas is there that's probably the only defensive player I'd be happy with. I'd be majorly upset with taking a DT even if we traded down a few slots. Looking at next year's schedule it's important to hit the ground running. We're going absolutely need big contributions from our first and second round picks. Can't afford project picks this year.GS, you & I are not that far apart. I am not advocating a DT in first or any round on my board. I think a LG to replace Studdard, especially if Pitts returns productively and a solid power back like Gerhart "tops off" the O. I have been putting off my most recent mock while working with Beerlover and Rmartin 65 on one. I guess I should post so all will know where I am coming from.

TexCanada
01-21-2010, 02:18 PM
I think it's because of the simplicity we had to run on defense this year. Trying to implement a new system with new players and starting a rookie at LB and CB, while also starting a SS that wasn't even with the team until week 2 forced Bush to keep things very simple.

Next season, Bush will be able to do with with disguising of coverage, etc... and that will cause the QBs to hold on to the ball too long more often. I think this defense should take a significant jump in year two. Barring significant injury issues, I think we're looking at a top 5 defense!

I don't think our secondary will allow us to be a top 5 D. We either need to add in a top FS or we need a more consistent pass rush to help them out. Bush's scheming won't help against the 10 yard cushions we have to give to make up for lack of speed.

Texan4Ever
01-21-2010, 03:12 PM
You don't need a 350 lb NT to stop the run. If you didn't notice the D did just fine last year stuffing the run. We were 10th in rush yds against and 14th in avg yds per carry against. That's a little above average. We did that while in the 1st year of a new system that included us giving up 250 rush yds a game in the first 3 games of the season. This defense proved they can stop the run w/o a 360 lb guy in the middle. We actually had a top 10 defense during the last 2 months of the season, but injuries on offense, turnovers, and redzone inconsistency doomed us once again.

We run a 4-3, not a 3-4. A NT is not a necessity. This obsession with it is getting quite annoying actually. Price had an excellent career in college and he can play at the pro level. If he can shoot gaps and make plays then that's all we need. Besides, if one of the DT's is eating a double team then that leaves Demeco & Co. free to make plays. I can live with that.

Also, about the whole depth thing. I doubt he would be on the field every snap. DT's add depth because they are always rotating. At least that's my interpretation of Kiper's analysis.



If we need a DT for depth or have him rotate in, why use a 1st round pick on a DT when there are plenty of solid players available in the later rounds?

mussop
01-21-2010, 03:58 PM
a 6'5"330 probably more by game 1 rookie used to playing 12-13 games against college guys has to go up against NFL DEs and LBs for 16 games? You don't see that as a concern? Look at Duane Brown for example his rookie year. He ran out of gas very early and that was with Salaam spelling him every other series initially.

I dont see what his size has to do with it. The guy is a physical specimen he is not your average fat guy OL.

thunderkyss
01-21-2010, 08:11 PM
We play in a tough division with Garrard and VY as very mobile QBs and Manning as the best in the NFL at getting the ball out. For a little perspective though, Manning was sacked 10 times this year - 4 of them by the Texans. So we got to Manning 4 times in 2 games and the rest of the league got to him 6 times in 14 games.

Which in my opinion is the best reason we need a real NT. Minnesota is probably the only team that is as fierce against the run as they are rushing the passer. But that is what I would like.

Let's free up our Linebakers to cover the short & intermediate routes, and spy the QB.

Let's stop the run with our front 4, so our secondary don't bite so hard on the play action.

theanswer000
01-21-2010, 10:32 PM
:spit: he is just messing.

C.J. Spiller is our guy.

playa465
01-23-2010, 04:12 AM
You don't need a 350 lb NT to stop the run. If you didn't notice the D did just fine last year stuffing the run. We were 10th in rush yds against and 14th in avg yds per carry against. That's a little above average. We did that while in the 1st year of a new system that included us giving up 250 rush yds a game in the first 3 games of the season. This defense proved they can stop the run w/o a 360 lb guy in the middle. We actually had a top 10 defense during the last 2 months of the season, but injuries on offense, turnovers, and redzone inconsistency doomed us once again.

We run a 4-3, not a 3-4. A NT is not a necessity. This obsession with it is getting quite annoying actually. Price had an excellent career in college and he can play at the pro level. If he can shoot gaps and make plays then that's all we need. Besides, if one of the DT's is eating a double team then that leaves Demeco & Co. free to make plays. I can live with that.

Also, about the whole depth thing. I doubt he would be on the field every snap. DT's add depth because they are always rotating. At least that's my interpretation of Kiper's analysis.

You are misunderstanding the principle behind the wanting the space eating/bigger/stronger DT/NT opposite the UT. If a player in that position can eat up 2 blockers, the smaller UT should have a better opportunity to shoot the gap or gain a 1 on 1. If your DT/NT can collapse the pocket these are other things that should fall in line:
The DEs have a better shot at reaching the QB
The timing of both running/passing plays is disrupted
The opposing OL don't reach the 2nd level in their blocking assignments
LBs are freed up immensely
Secondary doesn't have to cover as long.

Don't get caught up on our stats; plus I think next years' opponents have stronger rushing attacks vs this year

mussop
01-23-2010, 07:34 AM
You are misunderstanding the principle behind the wanting the space eating/bigger/stronger DT/NT opposite the UT. If a player in that position can eat up 2 blockers, the smaller UT should have a better opportunity to shoot the gap or gain a 1 on 1. If your DT/NT can collapse the pocket these are other things that should fall in line:
The DEs have a better shot at reaching the QB
The timing of both running/passing plays is disrupted
The opposing OL don't reach the 2nd level in their blocking assignments
LBs are freed up immensely
Secondary doesn't have to cover as long.

Don't get caught up on our stats; plus I think next years' opponents have stronger rushing attacks vs this year

That phylosophy is well documented and sound but unfortunaltely our coaching staff doesnt follow it so you are preaching to the choir as they say. Its kind of like the safety position where usually there is a strong safety that is more of a runs support guy and isnt generally as good in coverage and then there is a free safety that is just the opposite. Our coaching staff dont use that phylosophy either. They want their safeties to be interchangeable.

thunderkyss
01-23-2010, 08:44 AM
Its kind of like the safety position where usually there is a strong safety that is more of a runs support guy and isnt generally as good in coverage and then there is a free safety that is just the opposite. Our coaching staff dont use that phylosophy either. They want their safeties to be interchangeable.

That is until last year when we picked up Eugene Wilson.

Our safeties have followed the more traditional roles since we picked up Eugene. His primary role has been FS. He does have run support duties, but so does every DB in the league.

Dominique Barber, IMO, failed miserably as a SS. Pollard came in and has been our SS ever since. Barber looked better as a FS, which he ended the year playing.

Pollard will generally have coverage responsibilities.... so did Roy Williams, so does Palamalu.

I think going forward, Wilson will be our FS, Pollard will be our SS, and they will be played like most FS/SS combos in the league.

Redtexan#34
01-23-2010, 02:29 PM
Did anybody with espn insider see who Mel Kiper has the Texans picking in his first mock draft? I let my insider expire.

Wolf6151
01-23-2010, 02:30 PM
Brian Price-DT from UCLA, I sure hope he's wrong.

mussop
01-23-2010, 03:19 PM
There is a thread about it in the draft forum (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68918). Thats also a better place to get your draft info than wasting your money on that Insider crap.

m5kwatts
01-23-2010, 04:22 PM
Brian Price-DT from UCLA, I sure hope he's wrong.

Yeah this team has too many disruptive interior defensive lineman

The Pencil Neck
01-23-2010, 05:45 PM
That phylosophy is well documented and sound but unfortunaltely our coaching staff doesnt follow it so you are preaching to the choir as they say. Its kind of like the safety position where usually there is a strong safety that is more of a runs support guy and isnt generally as good in coverage and then there is a free safety that is just the opposite. Our coaching staff dont use that phylosophy either. They want their safeties to be interchangeable.

I think, with Bush, that philosophy is changing.

We saw more of Dunta being put on the opponents best receiver instead of just playing a side like in pre-Bush days. We saw more of a SS/FS duty split with Pollard playing up in the box and Wilson/Barber/whoever playing more of a FS role. I even think with the drafting of Okam, we saw the possibility of that space-eating NT to clear the way for Amobi/Whoever playing DT.

So, while I would have agreed with you last year, I think they're changing a bit.

ubecool454
01-27-2010, 08:14 PM
Would be extremely disappointed if we took a DT in the first this year. Will Price be effective from the first snap he takes? Really hard to tell with DTs.

I think it's a high risk pick and we're in a position next year where we are facing a brutal schedule on paper and we're going to need someone to make a hands down immediate impact with our first rounder.

I like the trade idea proposal here. Except I feel unless Gerhart blows it up in the combine and pro day he'll be there in the second when our next pick comes up. I however, feel like Iupati wouldn't be there so he'd be my first round pick. Set him at one of the guards, get a push for our OL, we'd have a strong backfield of Slaton, Gerhart and Foster. Who knows maybe Jeremiah Johnson will be back healthy and make a case for himself at the third spot.

I'd throw money at Casey Hampton in FA and/or just look for a big body later in the draft. If only this staff could figure out how to get a fire under Okam.

Hampton being a ex-longhorn might be able to light that fire under Okam.

threetoedpete
01-28-2010, 01:41 AM
Houston Texans
Record: 9-7
Brian Price*, DT, UCLA

"Price is hidden away a bit in such a deep class of defensive linemen, but he's a disruptive force who utilizes great leverage. He should add depth to an improving defense."


Who the hell drafts in the first round to add depth?

So how many Amobi Okoye's do we have to draft before we get it right ?

threetoedpete
01-28-2010, 01:46 AM
I think, with Bush, that philosophy is changing.

We saw more of Dunta being put on the opponents best receiver instead of just playing a side like in pre-Bush days. We saw more of a SS/FS duty split with Pollard playing up in the box and Wilson/Barber/whoever playing more of a FS role. I even think with the drafting of Okam, we saw the possibility of that space-eating NT to clear the way for Amobi/Whoever playing DT.

So, while I would have agreed with you last year, I think they're changing a bit.

Well I don't know about philosophy, but I use to say before last year...when we sent five or six, we couldn't get there. I can't post that anymore. Look after four years you got to understand...the basic philosophy of this football team is we're rushing four and dropping seven. And that isn't going to change untill Gary Kubiak is gone.

HOU-TEX
01-28-2010, 01:54 PM
So how many Amobi Okoye's do we have to draft before we get it right ?

I don't think Okoye should be compared to Brice. IMO, Okoye shouldn't have been drafted in the first round. Here's College stats of Okoye along with Brice and Williams. Can you choose who's who?

DT #1:

GP: 35
Tackles: 66
TFL: 8
Sack: 2.5
FR: 3

DT #2:

GP: 35
Tackles: 97
TFL: 44.5
Sack: 12.5
FR:

DT #3:

GP: 32
Tackles: 90
TFL: 16
Sack: 4.5
FR: 0

threetoedpete
01-28-2010, 02:02 PM
Nope....you Just just go ahead an flat out post me that drafting UCLA will put pressure on Manning. And therefore we will whip the Colts one out of two the next three years. You go ahead and post that the Pack ten is a very high conference and these stats will flat out translate into making Manning have itchy feet. You can tell us another one now.

HOU-TEX
01-28-2010, 02:27 PM
Nope....you Just just go ahead an flat out post me that drafting UCLA will put pressure on Manning. And therefore we will whip the Colts one out of two the next three years. You go ahead and post that the Pack ten is a very high conference and these stats will flat out translate into making Manning have itchy feet. You can tell us another one now.

Huh? :thinking:

It's been a while since I've had to use the ttpete decoder.

Goatcheese
01-28-2010, 10:30 PM
I don't think Okoye should be compared to Brice. IMO, Okoye shouldn't have been drafted in the first round. Here's College stats of Okoye along with Brice and Williams. Can you choose who's who?

DT #1:

GP: 35
Tackles: 66
TFL: 8
Sack: 2.5
FR: 3

DT #2:

GP: 35
Tackles: 97
TFL: 44.5
Sack: 12.5
FR:

DT #3:

GP: 32
Tackles: 90
TFL: 16
Sack: 4.5
FR: 0

None of those are Okoye.

2006 54 tackles 14 TFL 8 sacks
2005 23 tackles 5 TFL .5 sack

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2006&org=367&player=91

mussop
01-29-2010, 02:24 AM
None of those are Okoye.

2006 54 tackles 14 TFL 8 sacks
2005 23 tackles 5 TFL .5 sack

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2006&org=367&player=91

i think he was talking about their collage stats.

playa465
01-29-2010, 02:26 AM
Nope....you Just just go ahead an flat out post me that drafting UCLA will put pressure on Manning. And therefore we will whip the Colts one out of two the next three years. You go ahead and post that the Pack ten is a very high conference and these stats will flat out translate into making Manning have itchy feet. You can tell us another one now.

LOL...If we take Price I hope all you have said is wrong, but its still funny

Goatcheese
01-29-2010, 05:26 AM
i think he was talking about their collage stats.

I didn't know they tracked stats for art. :thinking:

I may have found my new hobby.

mussop
01-30-2010, 02:38 AM
I didn't know they tracked stats for art. :thinking:

I may have found my new hobby.

Funny I have been working on some collages. :spin: