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Texans_Chick
01-20-2010, 10:13 AM
Just put up a blog post at the Chron about the Texans defense and their third down performance (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/01/texans_defense_third_down.html).

Learned a little when I put it together, and hope readers learn stuff too.

(If only you see Bernard Pollard's mad dancing skillz.)

infantrycak
01-20-2010, 10:25 AM
Do they have a stat in there for 3 and outs? For a good portion of the season the commentators were saying the Texans had more than anyone else. Interesting to then end up 28th overall. Sounds kind of like stop them fast or lose concentration.

DeMarCushPoll
01-20-2010, 10:29 AM
Do they have a stat in there for 3 and outs? For a good portion of the season the commentators were saying the Texans had more than anyone else. Interesting to then end up 28th overall. Sounds kind of like stop them fast or lose concentration.

I believe they were 13th in overall defense.

DexmanC
01-20-2010, 10:36 AM
Two games highlight their 3rd down performance for me:

3rd down against the pass: Mark Sanchez and the Jets burning us in the
air every time.

3rd down against the run: MJD shoving it up on us when we NEEDED to stop
them on something like 11 consecutive handoffs.

It's the "gotta haves" and "gotta stops" categories that must improve this
offseason.

thunderkyss
01-20-2010, 11:25 AM
It's the "gotta haves" and "gotta stops" categories that must improve this
offseason.

This, I will agree with.

dalemurphy
01-20-2010, 12:01 PM
Two games highlight their 3rd down performance for me:

3rd down against the pass: Mark Sanchez and the Jets burning us in the
air every time.

3rd down against the run: MJD shoving it up on us when we NEEDED to stop
them on something like 11 consecutive handoffs.

It's the "gotta haves" and "gotta stops" categories that must improve this
offseason.


After week 3, I thought the defense played very good situational defense. The end of the second Jags game was certainly frustrating. I agree. But, MJD is a great back and he's going to do that sometimes. That was the exception more than the rule once the defense got going in October.

b0ng
01-20-2010, 01:02 PM
After week 3, I thought the defense played very good situational defense. The end of the second Jags game was certainly frustrating. I agree. But, MJD is a great back and he's going to do that sometimes. That was the exception more than the rule once the defense got going in October.

I think this year if the defense waits till october to show up somebody's ass might be on fire.

DexmanC
01-20-2010, 01:37 PM
After week 3, I thought the defense played very good situational defense. The end of the second Jags game was certainly frustrating. I agree. But, MJD is a great back and he's going to do that sometimes. That was the exception more than the rule once the defense got going in October.

In the "big games," it was definitely NOT the case. VY torched us with
his legs dang near every 3rd down. When the Colts needed a touchdown
to win both games in the 4th qtr, they GOT them. Situational defense
against marginal teams, we had a field day. Against EVERY CONTENDER
WE FACED, it was definitely a struggle. It seems to me, the Bengals
game was more an "exception" to the rule.

We managed to play 30 minutes a game, and somehow won 9 games. I'd
be encouraged, if I were to believe they'll play 60 minutes consistently in
2010. I'd surely like to see that.

Texans_Chick
01-20-2010, 01:50 PM
Do they have a stat in there for 3 and outs? For a good portion of the season the commentators were saying the Texans had more than anyone else. Interesting to then end up 28th overall. Sounds kind of like stop them fast or lose concentration.

Looked but didn't see it. I'll ask my buds over there some questions about that.

But while noodling around to find that info, one other glaring bad bad bad stat is the Texans red zone defense. Ew. Near the bottom of the league.

I think Bush did a nice job being creative and trying to make what personnel they have work for them, and you can clearly see the benefit of Pollard + Cushing, but the defense needs some work.

The Texans were very very fortunate to find Pollard last season and that Cushing and Williams didn't have to miss any games due to their injuries. The depth on that side of the ball still gives me the willies.

DeMarCushPoll
01-20-2010, 01:55 PM
I think this year if the defense waits till october to show up somebody's ass might be on fire.

I don't think it was a case of them waiting until October to show-up, I think it took them a little while to adjust to a new DC/system. I actually thought it would take longer than it did, I was impressed with how quickly they were able to get it together.

disaacks3
01-20-2010, 02:13 PM
In the "big games," it was definitely NOT the case. VY torched us with
his legs dang near every 3rd down. When the Colts needed a touchdown
to win both games in the 4th qtr, they GOT them. Situational defense
against marginal teams, we had a field day. Against EVERY CONTENDER
WE FACED, it was definitely a struggle. It seems to me, the Bengals
game was more an "exception" to the rule.

We managed to play 30 minutes a game, and somehow won 9 games. I'd
be encouraged, if I were to believe they'll play 60 minutes consistently in
2010. I'd surely like to see that.
Hence why I LOVED the PLAY30 moniker for the Texans this year (as a turn on the PLAY60 NFL exercise thing for kids).:runaway:

Malloy
01-20-2010, 02:43 PM
Good read as always TC, thanks! :)

dalemurphy
01-20-2010, 02:49 PM
In the "big games," it was definitely NOT the case. VY torched us with
his legs dang near every 3rd down. When the Colts needed a touchdown
to win both games in the 4th qtr, they GOT them. Situational defense
against marginal teams, we had a field day. Against EVERY CONTENDER
WE FACED, it was definitely a struggle. It seems to me, the Bengals
game was more an "exception" to the rule.

We managed to play 30 minutes a game, and somehow won 9 games. I'd
be encouraged, if I were to believe they'll play 60 minutes consistently in
2010. I'd surely like to see that.

vs. Tennessee-- Defense did struggle at times but only gave up 20 points. And, got the ball back in time for the Texans to tie game. By the way, also stopped the Titans on the 36 and forced a very risky 53 yd field goal to go ahead.

at INDY-- Defense gave up one score in the second half. It was a TD with 7 minutes left. In the 3rd quarter, the Colts were shutdown, including a turnover on a Pollard INT. Then, the biggest series for the Texan defense, when Indy got the ball with 2:13 left in the game, the Texans stopped them on a 3 and out, including a Sack-Fumble. The Colts had to punt with 1:51 left in the game, giving the Texans time to setup for the game-tying 42 yd field goal

Vs. Cincinnati, Cushing made the game clinching INT.

Vs. NE, the Texans scored 21 points unanswered, including picking off and beating the heck out of Brady in the 4th quarter.

at Arizona, the Texans held the Cardinals offense scoreless the entire second half. Also, in the first half, they had a huge red zone turnover to keep the game manageable.


Dexman, clearly the heartbreaking losses this year knocked you silly. I understand. Really, I do. I get why you have soured on Kubiak and why you are so frustrated. But, I'm not sure what you're wanting out of this defense because it performed very well in many of the big moments of the big games. It's still a flawed defense but the defense stepped up big time this year and did it in big spots against good offenses and good teams.

dalemurphy
01-20-2010, 02:53 PM
I don't think it was a case of them waiting until October to show-up, I think it took them a little while to adjust to a new DC/system. I actually thought it would take longer than it did, I was impressed with how quickly they were able to get it together.

week one starting secondary:

Brice McCain
Fred Bennett
Dominique Barber
John Busing


that, folks, is the reason why the team struggled early:
Pollard wasn't on the team yet
Reeves was coming back from his injury
Dunta held out the entire preseason
EWilson was cheap-shotted by Favre and missed week one.
Quin was playing primarily in nickel at that point.

So, Our top 5 DBs were all on the bench to start that game!

thunderkyss
01-20-2010, 03:04 PM
week one starting secondary:

Brice McCain
Fred Bennett
Dominique Barber
John Busing


that, folks, is the reason why the team struggled early:
Pollard wasn't on the team yet
Reeves was coming back from his injury
Dunta held out the entire preseason
EWilson was cheap-shotted by Favre and missed week one.
Quin was playing primarily in nickel at that point.

So, Our top 5 DBs were all on the bench to start that game!

Not only that, but our rookie bad-ass missed all of training camp as well. He made plays early no doubt, but he got burned on some of those big runs in the first three games as well.

dalemurphy
01-20-2010, 03:19 PM
Defenses I'd rather have (maybe)going into the 2010 season:

NYJets-- young and damn good! with the best CB I've seen in a long time
Pittsburgh-- great group of LBs, Polamalu, and some nice DTs.
San Diego-- underachieved this season but a good NT, two very good CBs and some other nice pieces.
Dallas-- 3 excellent LBs: Ware, Spencer, James. Excellent front 3, especially Ratliff! and good, young CBs
NYGiants-- I like their CBs even though they struggled. And that's a heck of an 8 man DL rotation.
Minnesota-- Great DL and nice pieces in the secondary
GB-- Woodson, playmakers at safety, excellent young DL, and young, athletic OLBs.


That's it. Baltimore's secondary is in BIG trouble and Ray Lewis has gotten to old to play every down. Washington and Cincy have nice defenses but I think their poor offenses have a lot to do with their statistical strengths. NE is a mess! Tennessee has issues at CB, aging LBs, and a lot of free agents on the DL.

steelbtexan
01-20-2010, 06:00 PM
week one starting secondary:

Brice McCain
Fred Bennett
Dominique Barber
John Busing


that, folks, is the reason why the team struggled early:
Pollard wasn't on the team yet
Reeves was coming back from his injury
Dunta held out the entire preseason
EWilson was cheap-shotted by Favre and missed week one.
Quin was playing primarily in nickel at that point.

So, Our top 5 DBs were all on the bench to start that game!

Cant rep you but this is exactly why the team struggled.

I cant believe they waited until week 3 to sign Pollard.

The lack of making this move before week 1 is the main reason the Texans aren't in the playoffs this year. IMO

You snooze (Smithiak) You lose (Texans fans)

dalemurphy
01-20-2010, 08:21 PM
Cant rep you but this is exactly why the team struggled.

I cant believe they waited until week 3 to sign Pollard.

The lack of making this move before week 1 is the main reason the Texans aren't in the playoffs this year. IMO

You snooze (Smithiak) You lose (Texans fans)

Tough losses, HB pass on 1st and goal, annointing Chris Brown the starter after the bye week are all things that have made my confidence in Kubiak waiver from time to time. However, nothing created as much doubt as his (and Rick Smith's) negligence of the safety position last off-season. Someone still needs to explain to me why on earth they were so confident in the combination of Nick Ferguson, Dominique Barber, Brandon Harrison, and Eugene Wilson!

HJam72
01-20-2010, 08:59 PM
Cant rep you but this is exactly why the team struggled.

I cant believe they waited until week 3 to sign Pollard.

The lack of making this move before week 1 is the main reason the Texans aren't in the playoffs this year. IMO

You snooze (Smithiak) You lose (Texans fans)

I thought that was the first chance we had. We could have gotten him earlier???

Lucky
01-20-2010, 09:50 PM
week one starting secondary:

Brice McCain
Fred Bennett
Dominique Barber
John Busing

McCain didn't start. Robinson started the Jets game, and every other game in the '09 season.

And the secondary didn't lose the Jets game. It was the offense's inability to compete on any level that doomed the Texans. It was the biggest egg ever laid in the Kubiak era. From the stands, it looked as if the team just quit.


I cant believe they waited until week 3 to sign Pollard.

The lack of making this move before week 1 is the main reason the Texans aren't in the playoffs this year. IMO

You snooze (Smithiak) You lose (Texans fans)
Pollard was still nursing an ankle injury from the Chiefs training camp. He couldn't pass a physical prior to the Texans signing him after week 2. I'm pretty sure Pollard was bound for Houston as soon as he was cut, but couldn't sign until he was cleared medically.

Back to the thread topic, I find much of the Football Outsiders statistical analysis to be dubious. I trust what I saw more than what their numbers tell me. I saw a defense that was completely unprepared at the start of the seasons. Excuses aside, it was a horrible performance. However, the defense improved over the rest of the season. Other than maybe the MNF Titans loss, and the home loss to the Colts, the defense played well enough to win. Granted, they didn't face a lot of great offenses (I'm sure that's why FO knocks the D so much). But, you can only play the teams on your schedule. And I'd say the defense played well enough to win 11 games.

Despite the Texans gaudy offensive stats, I'd say the offense played well enough to win in about half the games. The Jets game was a total failure. They slept through the games versus the Raiders and the Rams. The combination of no rushing attack and turnovers doomed the team in the 4 game divisional losing streak. And while they moved the ball during the 2nd half in Arizona, the inability to score on the goal line, along with giving up the game winning score, was to much to overcome.

So while I don't believe the Texans defense is a finished product, they out performed the "elite" Texans offense over the course of the season. That's how I saw it. Frank Bush was the best coach on this team. And it would best serve the franchise if the resources available in $$$ and draft picks were slanted toward the offense, this offseason. Specifically, the interior offensive line and running back positions. And maybe come up with a few more running plays besides inside and outside zone runs. Just for the hell of it.

m5kwatts
01-20-2010, 10:02 PM
That video of Pollard dancing in the Chiefs locker room is HILARIOUS I thoroughly enjoyed that, didn't realize the guy had a playful side after seeing how he hits.

I still can't believe the guy had 102 tackles and wasn't even in the league the first 3 weeks. Wow.

infantrycak
01-21-2010, 09:09 AM
annointing Chris Brown the starter after the bye week are all things that have made my confidence in Kubiak waiver from time to time.

Being on the field for the 1st snap is an almost meaningless stat in this instance. Brown had 4 "starts" and in only one did he have a majority of rushes.

TN - Brown 11, other RBs 5
Jax - Brown 6, other RBs 12
Seattle - Brown 3, other RBs 23
Stl - Brown 3, other RBs 15

dalemurphy
01-21-2010, 09:16 AM
Being on the field for the 1st snap is an almost meaningless stat in this instance. Brown had 4 "starts" and in only one did he have a majority of rushes.

TN - Brown 11, other RBs 5
Jax - Brown 6, other RBs 12
Seattle - Brown 3, other RBs 23
Stl - Brown 3, other RBs 15

"Giving Brown that many carries coming out of the bye week!" is that better?

infantrycak
01-21-2010, 09:32 AM
"Giving Brown that many carries coming out of the bye week!" is that better?

I see CB being in as the coaches being between Scylla and Charybdis. Our rushing game was ineffective so we had to pass to move. That made pass protection imperative. CB was best at that. But you couldn't only put him in on passing plays and never rush him or you give the play away so you had to rush him occasionally. 11 was probably too many but in the grand scheme of things was the difference between 11 and 5 that big a deal in that game? Can we really say another one of the RBs would have done anything significant with those carries? Maybe, maybe not. But I agree I would have rather it have been 5.

dalemurphy
01-21-2010, 10:11 AM
I see CB being in as the coaches being between Scylla and Charybdis. Our rushing game was ineffective so we had to pass to move. That made pass protection imperative. CB was best at that. But you couldn't only put him in on passing plays and never rush him or you give the play away so you had to rush him occasionally. 11 was probably too many but in the grand scheme of things was the difference between 11 and 5 that big a deal in that game? Can we really say another one of the RBs would have done anything significant with those carries? Maybe, maybe not. But I agree I would have rather it have been 5.

I've made the argument you're making right now! And, you aren't wrong. I was just saying that during the losing streak, there were times that my confidence in Kubiak fluxuated.. And, seeing Chris Brown bungle around in the backfield was often the catalyst. My point, though, is that not even the HB pass fiasco vs. Jacksonville shook my faith in Kubiak as much as watching Kubiak and Smith willingly enter the preseason with Brandon Harrison and Dominique Barber slated to start and be the primary backup safety.

thunderkyss
01-21-2010, 12:02 PM
Being on the field for the 1st snap is an almost meaningless stat in this instance. Brown had 4 "starts" and in only one did he have a majority of rushes.

TN - Brown 11, other RBs 5
Jax - Brown 6, other RBs 12
Seattle - Brown 3, other RBs 23
Stl - Brown 3, other RBs 15

Even still, it's not like it was Kubiak's plan to ever make C.Brown the man. I think it's a travesty that we didn't bring L.J. in going into our bye week. But that's another story.

Slaton lost his job after the San Fran Game. We went to Buffalo with Moats being the main guy, then Indy & he fumbles in the red zone.

IMHO, this was the game he was going to give Slaton the opportunity to earn his job back. Brown got 14 touches (53 yards) Slaton got 10 touches (63 yards)

In the following game at Indy, Slaton got 17 touches (106 yds) Brown got 14 touches (76 yards).

Then Slaton got hurt.

The next game (Jacksonville) Moats got more touches than Brown.

I know we can shoulda, woulda, coulda this to death, but the plan was clearly to get Slaton back in the game. Didn't happen.... what are you gonna do?

steelbtexan
01-21-2010, 02:43 PM
I've made the argument you're making right now! And, you aren't wrong. I was just saying that during the losing streak, there were times that my confidence in Kubiak fluxuated.. And, seeing Chris Brown bungle around in the backfield was often the catalyst. My point, though, is that not even the HB pass fiasco vs. Jacksonville shook my faith in Kubiak as much as watching Kubiak and Smith willingly enter the preseason with Brandon Harrison and Dominique Barber slated to start and be the primary backup safety.

While calling that HB pass was a stupid play call.

Having C.Brown as the RB used to execute was a fireable offense. IMO

As far as the S position going into last season

Smith should be held accountable for that. Thinking that Barber and Harrison were the answers at S is either arrogant or stupid.

Smith not signing Pollard when he was available as a FA before the season started or making a trade for a 7th rd choice (That's what the Chiefs were asking for Pollard) and getting Pollard on the team during TC so that he could learn the system. Is criminal.

McNair should hold somebodies feet to the fire for that decision.

Instead of making people accountable McNair is content sitting back,keeping status quo and raising ticket prices.

End Of Rant

infantrycak
01-21-2010, 02:59 PM
Having C.Brown as the RB used to execute was a fireable offense. IMO

So you've seen all the RBs throw and know which other would have been better? I don't recall seeing any of them throw.

Smith not signing Pollard when he was available as a FA before the season started or making a trade for a 7th rd choice (That's what the Chiefs were asking for Pollard) and getting Pollard on the team during TC so that he could learn the system. Is criminal.

Someone reported (and I can't verify the veracity) that Pollard was injured and didn't clear medically until the 2nd week of the season and the Texans had worked a deal out to be signed the minute he cleared. If true it would seem to remove the criminality of the episode.

dalemurphy
01-21-2010, 03:00 PM
While calling that HB pass was a stupid play call.

Having C.Brown as the RB used to execute was a fireable offense. IMO

As far as the S position going into last season

Smith should be held accountable for that. Thinking that Barber and Harrison were the answers at S is either arrogant or stupid.

Smith not signing Pollard when he was available as a FA before the season started or making a trade for a 7th rd choice (That's what the Chiefs were asking for Pollard) and getting Pollard on the team during TC so that he could learn the system. Is criminal.
McNair should hold somebodies feet to the fire for that decision.

Instead of making people accountable McNair is content sitting back,keeping status quo and raising ticket prices.

End Of Rant


Actually, I think it was Lucky that said this: Pollard had an injury and couldn't pass a physical in order to be signed or traded for. The Texans, supposedly, were in talks with him, but had to wait before they could sign him.

That being said, I do blame Kubiak for the Texans' lack of aggressive pursuit of a safety in the off-season. It is the job of the coaches to communicate to the GM what the team needs... then, it's the job of Smith to go and get it. Clearly, Kubiak was not telling Smith last March that they needed help at safety.

datchapin
01-21-2010, 04:35 PM
So you've seen all the RBs throw and know which other would have been better? I don't recall seeing any of them throw.

It doesn't matter. It was a poorly coached play Brown didn't look to see what was happening right in front of him. He had room to set and didn't. He ran right into a tackle and never saw it coming. Kubiak said he liked what he saw pre-game and thought it would be an "easy TD".

I don't know how you or anyone else can try to defend this decision. CB has never come through for us and you put the game in his hands... on a trick play. That was garbage.


In regards to the original post. I think our D-line relies too much on speed. This is Bill Kollars calling card. We need a better balanced line. Unfortunately as long as Bill is here I don't see that happening because he luvs his undersized quick DT's.

infantrycak
01-21-2010, 05:10 PM
It doesn't matter. It was a poorly coached play Brown didn't look to see what was happening right in front of him. He had room to set and didn't. He ran right into a tackle and never saw it coming. Kubiak said he liked what he saw pre-game and thought it would be an "easy TD".

I don't know how you or anyone else can try to defend this decision. CB has never come through for us and you put the game in his hands... on a trick play. That was garbage.

I didn't defend the play call. I commented on someone else's comment about which RB was called to run the play. And you can't look at one failed play and say it was coached badly. Players are told all the time exactly what they need to do and then botch the play. Leon Lett had been coached since he was five to let that ball die and instead tried to dive on it (classic example of a bone headed play by an otherwise excellent and extremely well coached player).

thunderkyss
01-21-2010, 05:39 PM
It doesn't matter. It was a poorly coached play Brown didn't look to see what was happening right in front of him.

"Poorly Coached" I don't know how you can say it was poorly coached. all the players said it developed just like they had practiced it. They said they practiced it many times.

Chris Brown choked... bottom line.

If we got the outcome we wanted, no one would be calling that play stupid. PERIOD.

steelbtexan
01-21-2010, 07:07 PM
I didn't defend the play call. I commented on someone else's comment about which RB was called to run the play. And you can't look at one failed play and say it was coached badly. Players are told all the time exactly what they need to do and then botch the play. Leon Lett had been coached since he was five to let that ball die and instead tried to dive on it (classic example of a bone headed play by an otherwise excellent and extremely well coached player).

I didn't say it was poorly coached.

I dont know if another RB can throw a HB pass better than C.Brown.

I do know and knew at the time if C.Brown is the best option Kubes had for attempting a HB pass.Tthat play shouldn't be in Kubes playbook. Let alone calling the HB pass with 1st and goal from the 5 with your season on the line.

I will say it again if Kubes doesn't have more sense than to not use that play with C.Brown being the main participant in it. It should be a fireable offense.

infantrycak
01-21-2010, 07:41 PM
I didn't say it was poorly coached.

I dont know if another RB can throw a HB pass better than C.Brown.

I do know and knew at the time if C.Brown is the best option Kubes had for attempting a HB pass.Tthat play shouldn't be in Kubes playbook. Let alone calling the HB pass with 1st and goal from the 5 with your season on the line.

I will say it again if Kubes doesn't have more sense than to not use that play with C.Brown being the main participant in it. It should be a fireable offense.

Why? What is it about Chris Brown that makes him so particularly unsuitable for that play? The two key elements for that play are an ability to throw and decision making. Clearly he failed on the decision in this instance but what information prior to the play indicated he would do so? He was the most veteran RB on the squad.

thunderkyss
01-21-2010, 07:55 PM
Let alone calling the HB pass with 1st and goal from the 5 with your season on the line.


When do you call that play? 3rd and goal from the 1?

If I'm going to call that play, it would be on 1st & goal from the 5, when I've (theoretically) got 3 more plays. Unless my RB chokes.

dalemurphy
01-21-2010, 08:48 PM
When do you call that play? 3rd and goal from the 1?

If I'm going to call that play, it would be on 1st & goal from the 5, when I've (theoretically) got 3 more plays. Unless my RB chokes.

I don't call that play.

I'm on your side regarding Kubiak... but, I hate trick plays. Particularly, when the traditional offense is moving the ball well.

thunderkyss
01-21-2010, 09:38 PM
I don't call that play.

I'm on your side regarding Kubiak... but, I hate trick plays. Particularly, when the traditional offense is moving the ball well.

I'm not big on them either. But if I were going to call it, I would call it on 1st & whatever. Not 3rd & a prayer, or 4th and gotta have it.

And it's not like Kubiak hadn't tried the conventional methods when in the red zone. There was one series against New England, before the half I think. Where we tried 3 different passes inside the 5, and got nothing.

On one hand, you've got people griping that Kubiak is to "conservative" to stubborn, to predictable. He does this.... and he's still getting raked over the coals.

The Pencil Neck
01-21-2010, 10:15 PM
I had no problem with that play. Dreessen was wide open. All CB had to do was pull the trigger before he rush got to him but he double clutched and lost his opportunity and then made a bone-head decision to try to put it up anyway.

You've got coaches like Andy Reid and Bill Parcells and Bill Cowher calling those sorts of plays when they think they can work. Sometimes they do. If those plays work (like the Steelers in the SB), then you're a genius. If they fail, you might like an *****.

But there was nothing wrong with that play or the call, imo.

steelbtexan
01-21-2010, 10:31 PM
Why? What is it about Chris Brown that makes him so particularly unsuitable for that play? The two key elements for that play are an ability to throw and decision making. Clearly he failed on the decision in this instance but what information prior to the play indicated he would do so? He was the most veteran RB on the squad.

Because C.Brown cant seem to
1. Make good decisions with the ball in his hands.
2. He's a turnover waiting to happen
3. He stinks as a player in general.
4. Most teams that run HB passes use great athelets to convert the play (Payton,Tomlinson) because they have the speed to make the corner come up.

Name one RB of the caliber of C.Brown that you can remember successfully completing a HB pass. How about even trying a HB pass?

thunderkyss
01-21-2010, 10:47 PM
Because C.Brown cant seem to

2. He's a turnover waiting to happen


Ironically, you're probably one of those guys who think Slaton should have got more carries than Chris Brown in the preceeding games.

The Pencil Neck
01-21-2010, 10:49 PM
Because C.Brown cant seem to
Name one RB of the caliber of C.Brown that you can remember successfully completing a HB pass. How about even trying a HB pass?

You mean like Kevin Faulk, Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown, Rickie Williams, Santonio Holmes, Mewelde Moore, Reggie Wayne, Joseph Addai, Chris Johnson...?

The Patriots hadn't tried it this year, but had last year. Every other team I checked (Dolphins, Steelers, Colts, and Titans) had at least 1 halfback (or WR) pass this season. Some of them were successful and some of them weren't.

steelbtexan
01-21-2010, 11:33 PM
Ironically, you're probably one of those guys who think Slaton should have got more carries than Chris Brown in the preceeding games.

No I was one of those guys that thought Moats should've gotten most of the carries.

Looking back on it Foster should've gotten PT eariler. Then atleast the Texans would know what they've got in him.

Slatons fumbling problems are related to the nerve damage in his arm. IMO

I would love to see C-N-D's take on this.

steelbtexan
01-21-2010, 11:46 PM
You mean like Kevin Faulk, Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown, Rickie Williams, Santonio Holmes, Mewelde Moore, Reggie Wayne, Joseph Addai, Chris Johnson...?

The Patriots hadn't tried it this year, but had last year. Every other team I checked (Dolphins, Steelers, Colts, and Titans) had at least 1 halfback (or WR) pass this season. Some of them were successful and some of them weren't.

All of these guys are much better atheletes. IMHO

You cant really compare Holms,Wayne,Edwards as athletes to C.Brown.

Wildcat RB's shouldn't count because that's not really a HB pass.

So that leaves Moore and Faulk who are both vets who have run this play many times in their careers. (none with the season on the line) Addai was a HS QB (Sharpstown) who was very good throwing the ball.

Johnson is the only RB that's comparable to Brown in his passing abilities. I wouldn't want him throwing a HB pass either. Particularly in that situation with the season on the line.

dalemurphy
01-21-2010, 11:52 PM
No I was one of those guys that thought Moats should've gotten most of the carries.

Looking back on it Foster should've gotten PT eariler. Then atleast the Texans would know what they've got in him.

Slatons fumbling problems are related to the nerve damage in his arm. IMO

I would love to see C-N-D's take on this.

Moats would've gotten Schaub killed. He's bad in pass protection.

Regarding Foster, I'm sure it was the same thing. He was likely slow to pick up protection scheme.

steelbtexan
01-22-2010, 12:08 AM
Moats would've gotten Schaub killed. He's bad in pass protection.

Regarding Foster, I'm sure it was the same thing. He was likely slow to pick up protection scheme.

You're probably right.

Man we've got some crappy RB's on this team.

RB should be adressed in the draft or FA. Preferrably both

76Texan
01-22-2010, 12:46 AM
Do they have a stat in there for 3 and outs? For a good portion of the season the commentators were saying the Texans had more than anyone else. Interesting to then end up 28th overall. Sounds kind of like stop them fast or lose concentration.
There's something wrong with that number, it seems to me.

Per nfl.com, the Texans D were 79/201 on 3rd down allowed, and 9/21 on 4th down. That's a total 88/222, or almost 40%

I did a quick comparison, and on the first 12 teams I ran across randomly, the Texans are better than 6 of them already. 28th overall doesn't sound right at all.

dalemurphy
01-22-2010, 01:15 AM
There's something wrong with that number, it seems to me.

Per nfl.com, the Texans D were 79/201 on 3rd down allowed, and 9/21 on 4th down. That's a total 88/222, or almost 40%

I did a quick comparison, and on the first 12 teams I ran across randomly, the Texans are better than 6 of them already. 28th overall doesn't sound right at all.

According to the official statistics, we were:
18th overall in 3rd down % = 39%
8th best overall in 4th down %

So, we were right in the middle of the pack... and better than average after week 3. While it is certainly an area to improve upon, we weren't bad.

HOU-TEX
01-22-2010, 09:22 AM
You're probably right.

Man we've got some crappy RB's on this team.

RB should be adressed in the draft or FA. Preferrably both

Not that I'm taking up for our RB's, but blitz pickups and blocking assignments are usually what rookie RBs say are the hardest to learn their first year.

There aren't many pro style offenses any more in College. They hardly block at all in the spread.

The Pencil Neck
01-22-2010, 09:30 AM
All of these guys are much better atheletes. IMHO

You cant really compare Holms,Wayne,Edwards as athletes to C.Brown.

Wildcat RB's shouldn't count because that's not really a HB pass.

So that leaves Moore and Faulk who are both vets who have run this play many times in their careers. (none with the season on the line) Addai was a HS QB (Sharpstown) who was very good throwing the ball.

Johnson is the only RB that's comparable to Brown in his passing abilities. I wouldn't want him throwing a HB pass either. Particularly in that situation with the season on the line.

I don't think the athleticism of these athletes is that much greater than Chris Brown's when it comes to throwing a 15 yard pass. I'd be surprised if Brown hasn't been running that play in practice since the pre-season and probably been hitting it with regularity. In a game situation with guys making impact on him, he blew it. Happens to QBs all the time.

DexmanC
01-22-2010, 09:41 AM
I don't think the athleticism of these athletes is that much greater than Chris Brown's when it comes to throwing a 15 yard pass. I'd be surprised if Brown hasn't been running that play in practice since the pre-season and probably been hitting it with regularity. In a game situation with guys making impact on him, he blew it. Happens to QBs all the time.

The way that cornerback fired off the blocks probably wouldn't have been
as aggressive if he respected Brown's ability to make him miss. It was a
goofy play not only because of the situation, but ALSO the person who
ran it had no credibility to sell the run.

infantrycak
01-22-2010, 10:02 AM
The way that cornerback fired off the blocks probably wouldn't have been
as aggressive if he respected Brown's ability to make him miss. It was a
goofy play not only because of the situation, but ALSO the person who
ran it had no credibility to sell the run.

Nice spin. How about a more realistic he fired off because he bought that it was going to be a run, i.e. what the play was designed to have happen.

The Pencil Neck
01-22-2010, 10:14 AM
The way that cornerback fired off the blocks probably wouldn't have been
as aggressive if he respected Brown's ability to make him miss. It was a
goofy play not only because of the situation, but ALSO the person who
ran it had no credibility to sell the run.

The CB was sold on the fake and would have done that on a regular running play. It had nothing to do with him thinking "Oh, hey, this is Chris Brown! He's not going to make me miss." He would have come up like that even if it was Moats or Foster or Slaton.

Everyone was up in run support leaving Dreessen wide open in the end zone and they wouldn't have been up there if the run hadn't been sold.

We just didn't get the guy blocked. And that happens sometimes even on regular pass plays and on regular run plays.

steelbtexan
01-22-2010, 10:27 AM
I don't think the athleticism of these athletes is that much greater than Chris Brown's when it comes to throwing a 15 yard pass. I'd be surprised if Brown hasn't been running that play in practice since the pre-season and probably been hitting it with regularity. In a game situation with guys making impact on him, he blew it. Happens to QBs all the time.

We will have to agree to diaagree.

How many times this year has it been said if one of the OL had made their block that play would've worked?

It's time to fix the OL. IMO

steelbtexan
01-22-2010, 10:42 AM
Not that I'm taking up for our RB's, but blitz pickups and blocking assignments are usually what rookie RBs say are the hardest to learn their first year.

There aren't many pro style offenses any more in College. They hardly block at all in the spread.

Le me try to assess our RB's.

Brown- Slow as molasses, is a turnover waiting to happen, but he's good at blitz pickup.

Moats- Good running the ball, because of his size he cant pickup the blitz and could get Schaub killed, A bit of a fumbler.

Slaton- Undersized to be a full time weight, gainend too much weight causing him to lose the thing that made him the thing that made him special. (quickness)

Foster- Looked good in limited time as a rookie, Needs to learn blitz pickup, a bit of a fumbler (in college as well as 1 of the 3 games he played) avg speed, he's got potential but is an avg. RB. Compared to the rest of the RB's he looked good.

RB should be a top priority in the draft/FA or both. IMO

HOU-TEX
01-22-2010, 10:46 AM
Not that I'm taking up for our RB's, but blitz pickups and blocking assignments are usually what rookie RBs say are the hardest to learn their first year.

There aren't many pro style offenses any more in College. They hardly block at all in the spread.

Le me try to assess our RB's.

Brown- Slow as molasses, is a turnover waiting to happen, but he's good at blitz pickup.

Moats- Good running the ball, because of his size he cant pickup the blitz and could get Schaub killed, A bit of a fumbler.

Slaton- Undersized to be a full time weight, gainend too much weight causing him to lose the thing that made him the thing that made him special. (quickness)

Foster- Looked good in limited time as a rookie, Needs to learn blitz pickup, a bit of a fumbler (in college as well as 1 of the 3 games he played) avg speed, he's got potential but is an avg. RB. Compared to the rest of the RB's he looked good.

RB should be a top priority in the draft/FA or both. IMO

Mmkay, like I said above, I'm not sticking up for our RB's. RB, Oline, FS and DT should all be priorities in the draft/FA. What's your point?

steelbtexan
01-22-2010, 11:02 AM
I wasn't directing that post to you. You just got me thinking abot the state of the Texans RB corps.

Which is a bad thing to think about. LOL

HOU-TEX
01-22-2010, 11:45 AM
I wasn't directing that post to you. You just got me thinking abot the state of the Texans RB corps.

Which is a bad thing to think about. LOL

Ah, gotcha. And yes, our running game as a whole last season sucks to think about. We've got to get it right and I'm pretty sure Kubiak wants it addressed as well.

thunderkyss
01-22-2010, 12:34 PM
Nice spin. How about a more realistic he fired off because he bought that it was going to be a run, i.e. what the play was designed to have happen.

Was it a corner back that got him? If I remember right, Vonta Leach made a poor choice on who to block, & I thought it was someone bigger than a corner.

datchapin
01-22-2010, 05:41 PM
Nice spin. How about a more realistic he fired off because he bought that it was going to be a run, i.e. what the play was designed to have happen.

I'm sorry, every other HB pass I've seen that's been successful the RB stops sets and throws. He does NOT keep running and try to throw on the run. CB was running and throwing as he was hit. Had he stopped whoever fired off would have to cover more ground to reach him. Brown helped him when he kept running.

I don't understand how you say your not sticking up for this decision when everytime it's judged you try to justify it.

Chris Brown coughed up the ball in the Jags game, he's the short yardage back and couldn't get 1 yd. at the Cards game. After all that is this the guy that YOU would put in to run the play?

I remember someone mentioning Winston saying that everything was going according to plan. I find it hard to believe that a lineman that is focused on blocking can tell what was going on in the backfield. Maybe they were blocking right, but unless Winston has eyes or cameras on the back of his helmet I don't know how he could tell what was going on in the backfield.


If all our RB's suck at blitz pick-up maybe it's time to look at our RB coach. The first game where Jenkins owned Myers, Slaton whiffed on that block. You can see him on the screen tapping Jenkins on the arm. Chick Harris has been our RB coach the whole time. Maybe there's a connection as to why our RB's haven't excelled.

thunderkyss
01-22-2010, 05:52 PM
If all our RB's suck at blitz pick-up maybe it's time to look at our RB coach. The first game where Jenkins owned Myers, Slaton whiffed on that block. You can see him on the screen tapping Jenkins on the arm. Chick Harris has been our RB coach the whole time. Maybe there's a connection as to why our RB's haven't excelled.

Slaton's not bad. Especially for his size. Chris Brown is just better. Moats flat out sucks.

Foster was a rookie.

Lucky
01-22-2010, 06:37 PM
I did a quick comparison, and on the first 12 teams I ran across randomly, the Texans are better than 6 of them already. 28th overall doesn't sound right at all.

According to the official statistics, we were:
18th overall in 3rd down % = 39%
8th best overall in 4th down %

I'm pretty sure Football Outsiders takes into account the competition faced, and skews the rankings. And so what. The fans that actually watched the Texans games know that the defense was brutal on 3rd downs early in the season. Just brutal. But, improved greatly as the season wore on.

I don't want to get off on a tangent regarding the Stagger Gary play. But seriously, who didn't watch that play unfold and say to themselves (or out loud), "What the ____!" It was the wrong play at the wrong time. You're down 2 scores, your team is reeling from 3 straight division losses, and you decide to take the ball out of your Pro Bowl level QB hands in the red zone, and call a halfback option by a back who had never, ever thrown a pass in his NFL career. Please. You will never convince me that that wasn't a totally idiotic, if not arrogant, call.

Since I'm on the tangent, anyway, let me address the "Only Chris Brown can pickup the blitz" storyline. How do you enter a season with a stable of RBs that can't pickup the blitz? I mean other than an ancient, injury-prone stiff like Chris Brown. And just how great a blocker is Chris Brown? Maybe someone can show me the stats that reveal his blocking prowess. All I know is that in the two games where Brown received his most carries (vs the Titans and Indy), Matt Schaub is sacked 6 times.

The Pencil Neck
01-22-2010, 08:05 PM
But seriously, who didn't watch that play unfold and say to themselves (or out loud), "What the ____!"

:BananaWav

dalemurphy
01-23-2010, 10:18 AM
I'm pretty sure Football Outsiders takes into account the competition faced, and skews the rankings. And so what. The fans that actually watched the Texans games know that the defense was brutal on 3rd downs early in the season. Just brutal. But, improved greatly as the season wore on.

I don't want to get off on a tangent regarding the Stagger Gary play. But seriously, who didn't watch that play unfold and say to themselves (or out loud), "What the ____!" It was the wrong play at the wrong time. You're down 2 scores, your team is reeling from 3 straight division losses, and you decide to take the ball out of your Pro Bowl level QB hands in the red zone, and call a halfback option by a back who had never, ever thrown a pass in his NFL career. Please. You will never convince me that that wasn't a totally idiotic, if not arrogant, call.

Since I'm on the tangent, anyway, let me address the "Only Chris Brown can pickup the blitz" storyline. How do you enter a season with a stable of RBs that can't pickup the blitz? I mean other than an ancient, injury-prone stiff like Chris Brown. And just how great a blocker is Chris Brown? Maybe someone can show me the stats that reveal his blocking prowess. All I know is that in the two games where Brown received his most carries (vs the Titans and Indy), Matt Schaub is sacked 6 times.


I agree with everything you just said. For the "Fire Kubiak Club", the only thing I'd add is that I see stupid calls/decisions from head coaches with great reputations all the time. But yeah, you are dead on about the call, about the stable of RBs we entered the season with, and about the drastic improvement of the defense during the season.

thunderkyss
01-23-2010, 11:06 AM
But yeah, you are dead on about the call...

I'm still not convinced. We're talking about week 13, he had a pretty good idea of what his pro-bowl QB was going to do in the Red-Zone. He had a pretty good idea what a conventional play was going to do...

Again, If Chris Brown throws it out of bounds, or takes the sack, we still have 3 opportunities to push it in.

dalemurphy
01-23-2010, 04:29 PM
I'm still not convinced. We're talking about week 13, he had a pretty good idea of what his pro-bowl QB was going to do in the Red-Zone. He had a pretty good idea what a conventional play was going to do...

Again, If Chris Brown throws it out of bounds, or takes the sack, we still have 3 opportunities to push it in.

I was screaming "NO" as soon as I recognized the play. Doesn't mean it was a good call but it does mean I would've complained about the call even if it worked.

Texans_Chick
01-25-2010, 08:32 PM
According to the official statistics, we were:
18th overall in 3rd down % = 39%
8th best overall in 4th down %

So, we were right in the middle of the pack... and better than average after week 3. While it is certainly an area to improve upon, we weren't bad.

The Football Outsiders stats look at what average NFL teams do in similar circumstances. Field position, length of third down, etc. And they look at competition.

So if you give up third downs to crappy offenses, it hurts your defensive efficiency.

dalemurphy
01-26-2010, 08:00 AM
The Football Outsiders stats look at what average NFL teams do in similar circumstances. Field position, length of third down, etc. And they look at competition.

So if you give up third downs to crappy offenses, it hurts your defensive efficiency.

I really appreciate the football outsiders' statistics and the information you provide on your blog. That being said, since I've watched all 16 games more than once, I can say with some certainty that we were probably the worst 3rd down defense the first three weeks of the season. Afterwards, we were among the best in 3rd and 4th and short. I can mentally recall about 8 stops on 3rd or 4th and one, just off the top of my head.

I would love to see the Football Outsiders' formula applied only to the last 13 games!

Texans_Chick
01-26-2010, 10:56 PM
I really appreciate the football outsiders' statistics and the information you provide on your blog. That being said, since I've watched all 16 games more than once, I can say with some certainty that we were probably the worst 3rd down defense the first three weeks of the season. Afterwards, we were among the best in 3rd and 4th and short. I can mentally recall about 8 stops on 3rd or 4th and one, just off the top of my head.

I would love to see the Football Outsiders' formula applied only to the last 13 games!

I am going to be putting that together soonishly.

dalemurphy
01-27-2010, 03:39 AM
I am going to be putting that together soonishly.

that would be awesome! no hurry, we've got 7 months.

tex-sky
01-28-2010, 04:20 AM
on the 3rd down subject, IMO its more on the DB's then anything. From what i saw our line got pressure but QB's were able to get rid of the ball very quickly. We need to draft one of the 3 first round FS's, and try to get a one of the veteran tackles that will be available to play passing downs. Quinn and Dunta are decent cover guys but if they had a rangy playmaking FS behind to go with Pollard they would look alot better. Also our LB's are top of the line there is no denying that but if they could improve 1 part of their game it would be there man to man coverage on RB's and TE's. Cush had some picks and pass's defensed but got burnt on 3rd somtimes, same with Ryans.

i can see us having a hell of a defense next year.

thunderkyss
01-28-2010, 12:58 PM
Also our LB's are top of the line there is no denying that but if they could improve 1 part of their game it would be there man to man coverage on RB's and TE's. Cush had some picks and pass's defensed but got burnt on 3rd somtimes, same with Ryans.
.

I think they can all also stand to understand zone coverages as well.

Cushing is good, that's why he usually gets a hand on the ball, if he don't outright intercepts a pass. But I think they all need to work on their zone coverage skills.

:texflag:

dalemurphy
01-28-2010, 01:08 PM
I think they can all also stand to understand zone coverages as well.

Cushing is good, that's why he usually gets a hand on the ball, if he don't outright intercepts a pass. But I think they all need to work on their zone coverage skills.



:texflag:

I think it will help this off-season for Bush to be able to implement more disguise in coverage, now that there won't be so many new parts and rookies trying to learn a brand new system. It's often the pre-snap confusion that lead to LBs making a play on the ball.

spurstexanstros
01-28-2010, 05:32 PM
So wait i am confused....I thought I had retired the " For the Love of God , someone please make a stop on third down" phrase but reading this thread makes me think the Texans didnt progress when I believed they did.

I thought they led the league in getting stops on third down...I guess I was wrong.

thunderkyss
01-28-2010, 07:06 PM
So wait i am confused....I thought I had retired the " For the Love of God , someone please make a stop on third down" phrase but reading this thread makes me think the Texans didnt progress when I believed they did.

I thought they led the league in getting stops on third down...I guess I was wrong.

there was a time, when "they" were saying we were 1st in the league in forcing 3 & outs.

a little different than being the best on third downs.

BigBull17
01-29-2010, 02:45 PM
week one starting secondary:

Brice McCain
Fred Bennett
Dominique Barber
John Busing

that, folks, is the reason why the team struggled early:
Pollard wasn't on the team yet
Reeves was coming back from his injury
Dunta held out the entire preseason
EWilson was cheap-shotted by Favre and missed week one.
Quin was playing primarily in nickel at that point.

So, Our top 5 DBs were all on the bench to start that game!

That's a motley crew of a secondary. Makes me cry a little inside.

Texans_Chick
02-05-2010, 09:03 AM
Here's a follow up post I did over at my Chron blog:

"The Texans defense....without those pesky first three games" (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2010/02/the_texans_defensewithout_thos.html)

Bill Barnwell of Football Outsiders runs a few numbers for us Texan fans. Interesting stuff...I learned a few things.

If you have any follow up questions to that post, please leave them in the comments over there and I will try to get Bill to answer them.