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View Full Version : who likes the switch?


pittbull
06-07-2004, 07:14 AM
With Wong moving to the right side of the defense, who thinks this is going to be a bigger advantage for the Texans? I was actually hoping to see Peek on the right side, Babin on the left, moving Wong on the inside to play along Sharper. Wong has a Ray Lewis type motor, just not his capabilities on the field. I think with Wong going to the right side, we still have to wonder about the pass rush. Historically, the left side of the 3-4 plays the run and pass defense, while the right side is more of a run stopper and pass rusher. Wong hasn't shown great production at getting to the passer in his opportunities, but maybe Fangio knows something we don't. Who knows.....Any thoughts?

Vinny
06-07-2004, 08:23 AM
Nobody has shown that they can handle the edge full time on this roster except Wong. Peek sure hasn't to date. I think Peek may end up as a starter there eventually, but if we start Peek and Babins on the edges expect a long season unless Peek has improved TREMENDOUSLY. I'm not sure he would be ready for the full-time rolb.

TheOgre
06-07-2004, 08:40 AM
If Peek progresses this season, I think you will see Wong replace Foreman next season. I think Vinny is right though. The Texans do not want to start a rookie and a first time starter at our two OLB positions in the same season.

El Tejano
06-07-2004, 08:58 AM
In Wong's defense, his first year with us he was moving to a brand new position in a totally new defensive scheme. Last year he played with alot of unprooven talent in fron of him and not Gary Walker in front or along side of him. This year he will have Robaire Smith that the offense will have to account for and I just believe he won't be covering as much as blitzing so we may see him flourish now that he has the hang of the system pretty much.

Babin, I am a little nervous about him being a rookie making a transition and all but it seems he has speed to keep up with the TE and RBs coming out of the backfield so he might work.

infantrycak
06-07-2004, 10:20 AM
Wong didn't get many sacks last year but he got a bunch of QB hurries. The DL being decimated last year didn't help that at all--hopefully with a healthy DL more of the QB hurries will be sacks for all the LB's this year.

J-Man
06-07-2004, 11:04 AM
I think that one of Wong's strengths is his versatility at the position. He is a solid starter at either OLB or ILB...but does not excell at either. I think that his play will be elevated this season due to a much better group of players around him. As for Peek...yeah, I keep hearing all the talk about him being a physical specimen and all that, but I haven't seen him preform on the field up to the talk yet. I'm sure we will take a long hard look at him this preseason and I hope that he works out, but if he doesn't then that's just how it goes.

Mistril48
06-07-2004, 11:14 AM
I think that one of Wong's strengths is his versatility at the position. He is a solid starter at either OLB or ILB...but does not excell at either. I think that his play will be elevated this season due to a much better group of players around him.

I agree wholeheartly with J-man. Wong will be very valuable BECAUSE of his versatility. To enhance that versatility, he will open camp at ROLB. Working at LOLB won't help him. I don't think we know yet how he will be used and early practice will only tip the Texans hand so much.

After what happened to the offensive line year 1 and then defense year 2, it will be great to have WOng covering all the linebacker positions.

A Texan
06-07-2004, 03:06 PM
As productive as Jay Foreman has been the last 2 years, I can't see anybody replacing him anytime soon.

J-Man
06-07-2004, 03:25 PM
As productive as Jay Foreman has been the last 2 years, I can't see anybody replacing him anytime soon.

Honestly I have been thinking that since I started checking out the boards and saw everyone calling for Foreman to be benched in favor of any number candidates. I don't think Foreman is that bad at all...his numbers are solid, his is a quiet preformer that turns in steady blue collar production pretty much every week.

Why do 75% of the fans seem to be calling for his head?

Vinny
06-07-2004, 03:27 PM
As productive as Jay Foreman has been the last 2 years, I can't see anybody replacing him anytime soon.
Ugh, I am no Jay Foreman fan. Tackle stats mean nothing to me when most of your stops are 5 yards down field. Inside linebackers are supposed to make at or around or over 100 tackles in our system since most of everything is funneled to them. He rarely makes plays at the line of scrimmage or behind the LOS. He is a solid NFL reserve but a very low-end starter in my eyes.

J-Man
06-07-2004, 03:37 PM
Ugh, I am no Jay Foreman fan. Tackle stats mean nothing to me when most of your stops are 5 yards down field. Inside linebackers are supposed to make at or around or over 100 tackles in our system since most of everything is funneled to them. He rarely makes plays at the line of scrimmage or behind the LOS. He is a solid NFL reserve but a very low-end starter in my eyes.

You make some good points, let me put this out there though...it's tough for any NFL linebacker to make plays while he has 300lb O-line guys hammering him, not to mention the fact that there were several times when our D-line was about as effective as crash test dummies.

I am not saying that he is a top notch LB or that he is even better than average. I simply think he is average and not as bad as many folks think. Just remember average is exactly that...for every Urlacher there is an EJ Hendersen (as noted in your thread on the Vikes).

Fiddy
06-07-2004, 04:37 PM
Wouldnt mind seeing a little of Babin-Sharper-Wong-Peek.

I agree with V that the tackle stats dont mean anything, but Foreman, if not great, has been steady.

Shotgun30
06-07-2004, 04:46 PM
And Wong, who has trouble getting to the QB, is going to do a better job in the middle. Give me break here.

Fiddy
06-07-2004, 05:05 PM
And Wong, who has trouble getting to the QB..
That is a misconception, Wong might not have the sack number you would like, but he gets a lot of hurries.

Can anybody get his stats for QB pressure???

Shotgun30
06-07-2004, 05:43 PM
I am not saying I don't like Wong.....but i like foreman too.....And the funny thing is everyone likes Babin, but we have not seen him play in pro game yet.....this year the LB's will be babin or peek-sharper-foreman-wong

Vinny
06-07-2004, 05:54 PM
I am not saying I don't like Wong.....but i like foreman too.....And the funny thing is everyone likes Babin, but we have not seen him play in pro game yet.....this year the LB's will be babin or peek-sharper-foreman-wong
Actually, Peek is battling Wong for the LB slot on the right side. It will be Babin Sharper Foreman or Wong/Peek. Everyone likes Babin because first round picks should be impact guys. We are all ready for an impact edge rusher. We really have not had one ever.

PHAROAH
06-07-2004, 06:43 PM
Sign Gildon none of those guys are proven he can show them how it's done.

Fiddy
06-07-2004, 06:53 PM
Sign Gildon none of those guys are proven he can show them how it's done.and Gildon is at the end of his career, I dont see why you would want to sign a guy that has little left in the tank as a pass rusher.

DominatorDavis
06-07-2004, 07:03 PM
I thought that Jeff Pose did a pretty good job in year 1 but he didn't stick around long enough to let the team grow. I think that we drafted Peek because we lost Pose to Buffalo. That being said, 8 sacks is not a great number of sacks for an ouside pass rusher in our system either. But the team was hurt when we lost him and like -V- said we have not recovered as of yet. The truth is Casserly knew that we needed a guy to groom this year to produce from the outside. I like the idea of the Babin pick. If he puts the hammer down from the outside I think that everyone will like him. He certainly has impressed people with his quickness.

Not to get off the subject, but during football offseasons I used to wrestle in highschool. And not to bragg in any way but - I was a good strong quick athlete. I remember wrestling the guy who ended up being the state champion for my weight division (202 lbs.). He was so lightning fast I felt like I was moving in slow motion. I was overwhelmed. Those state wrestling champion guys like JB are no joke and I dont know how competitive wrestling is in Michigan but if it is just half as competitive as the east coast is, then we have drafted a truely gifted athlete. But how well of a player that Babin will be is another story all together.

Anyway, if you need a guy for the outside, and you want to address it this year, and you had the options that CC had to work with, it is a good idea to get the guy you want now while you have extra latter picks in that same draft. It wasn't something where I said to myself "Awesome! We just gave up a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and switched 5ths - for another 1st!" Or anything like that. But in retrospect, in looking at what they did with the rest of the draft, I feel pretty good about it. If I did know better I'd be heading up the draft in April.

But they want Pose production or better no doubt and I certainly hope that Babin can provide that.

infantrycak
06-07-2004, 07:13 PM
Can anybody get his stats for QB pressure???

From Wong's profile on the Texans web-site:

led team with 26 quarterback pressures…

clandestin
06-07-2004, 07:33 PM
I have a feeling that most are over-estimating the impact that Babin is likely to have in his first year. Here are some early stats from other good 3-4 OLBs carreers.

Kevin Greene

Season Team Games Sacks
1985 LAM 15 0.0
1986 LAM 16 7.0
1987 LAM 9 6.5
1988 LAM 16 16.5

Greg Lloyd

1988 PIT 4 .5
1989 PIT 16 7
1990 PIT 14 4.5
1991 PIT 16 8

Jason Gildon

1994 PIT 16 2
1995 PIT 16 5
1996 PIT 14 12
1997 PIT 16 12
1998 PIT 16 12

There are exceptions (ie. Suggs' 12 sacks last year) but I would view a 6-8 sack season from Babin as a success, and even that may be overly optimistic--even LT took 3 years to get into double-digits.

DominatorDavis
06-07-2004, 08:33 PM
I would agree that 6-8 sacks is a success for Babin as well. If folks are optimistic it is because we gave up a lot to get him and the expectations on a guy like that are very high. As they should be. Why would you draft a guy if you did not have an idea of what he could do and what the team needs? No one drafts a player with the idea in mind that he will hit rock bottom. I know that that is not your point - but I hope that you can see the point that I am trying to make. Your are just counter-reacting to the hype on Babin and I respect that. Your position has its merit. With me it is more like cautious optimism and a wait and see approach.

Besides - when you look at everything who doesn't want the Texans to just dominate? I know I do. And I hope that Babin helps with that. On a side note, I do believe that our secondary will be the weak link next year IMO - not the D-line or the backers.

Vinny
06-07-2004, 08:47 PM
I think that I am going to expect a Posey-like year out of Babin. Posey produced decent pressure, a decent amount of sacks, but was fairly one-dimensional. Posey was one-dimensional because of limitations in his game but Babin will likely be a bit one-dimensional because of his experience in changing from DE to OLB although I expect Babin to be better against the run than Posey was. Babin will likely be weak in coverage in the flat and his run/pass reads. One step of hesitation gets you beat in the NFL. The game just moves too fast to think about what you are doing before you react to what you see.

Corrosion
06-08-2004, 12:35 AM
Ugh, I am no Jay Foreman fan. Tackle stats mean nothing to me when most of your stops are 5 yards down field.


I think you are forgetting the D line last year getting run over , many blockers getting to the second lvl meaning tackles are going to be made 5+ yards down-field ..... Not saying Foreman is an AllPro or anything but he is a steady performer if not spectacular and does work hard

Vinny
06-08-2004, 12:36 AM
I haven't forgotten. I didn't like him in 2002 either. Jamie Sharper plays right beside him and he didn't have nearly as many problems with Guards and getting good licks on backs at the LOS.

dalemurphy
06-08-2004, 02:30 AM
With Wong being used more consistantly as a pass-rusher, I'm sure it's going to be frustrating seeing RBs catch the ball underneath and gain 15 yards. With Sharper an adequate cover LB alongside Foreman (poor) and Babin (inexperienced), it's bound to be an achilles heel this year. But, hey, I prefer that to the QB having 7 seconds to throw the ball or the RB having 5 yards of daylight before he reaches any defenders.

scourge
06-08-2004, 07:26 PM
If memory serves me correctly, and it might not, wasnt Sharper an OLB in college and with the Ravens? If so, why havent they toyed with the idea of moving Wong back inside and Sharper back out? Just curious...

Fiddy
06-08-2004, 07:30 PM
If memory serves me correctly, and it might not, wasnt Sharper an OLB in college and with the Ravens? If so, why havent they toyed with the idea of moving Wong back inside and Sharper back out? Just curious...If Sharper was an OLB in college, he was in a 4-3, with the Ravens he was teamed with Ray Lewis in the middle, I think, as a MLB in a 3-4. If we ran a 4-3 he might be an OLB.

infantrycak
06-08-2004, 08:41 PM
If Sharper was an OLB in college, he was in a 4-3, with the Ravens he was teamed with Ray Lewis in the middle, I think, as a MLB in a 3-4. If we ran a 4-3 he might be an OLB.

The Ravens switched from 4-3 to 3-4 for the 2002 season so Sharper played one year there in a 3-4 and when that change was made he went from OLB to ILB.

Chance_C
06-09-2004, 11:24 AM
Historically, the left side of the 3-4 plays the run and pass defense, while the right side is more of a run stopper and pass rusher. Wong hasn't shown great production at getting to the passer in his opportunities, but maybe Fangio knows something we don't. Who knows.....Any thoughts?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that Wong's sack opportunities are limited because of being on the left side. I think he should definately have more sacks this year. And since Babin will be on the left side, if he gets 6-8 sacks that would be awesome. Like the general consensus, I hope he can catch on to the coverage aspect of his position rather quickly. I would like to see Foreman as our backup ILB, because that would mean that we would have someone better manning the position. The weak DL argument for last year does not apply to 2002 as pointed out by V. He is a solid backup, that's it.