PDA

View Full Version : Kubiak's ranking as an OC


ArlingtonTexan
01-12-2010, 09:21 AM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/01/11/ranking-the-offensive-coordinators

14. Gary Kubiak / Texans (head coach)
Kubiak's simple system maximizes the ability of his quarterback, but evaluators were confused as to why his game plans were not more aggressive late in games and called into question his ability to adjust in the second half. Statistically, the Texans rank in the top third of the league in offensive output with Matt Schaub having a career year that helped produce the Texans' first winning record. And offensive coordinator/QB coach Kyle Shanahan deserves mention for his work with Schaub.
SCOUT'S TAKE: "They are innovative early in the game with their initial packages, but they tighten up under pressure and go much more conservative. I question how well they adapt. They usually become very predictable in what they are trying to execute. If you look at Andre Johnson's productivity, a lot of it is coming early instead of late. He racks up yards, but they don't come through in clutch situations."

Scooter
01-12-2010, 11:13 AM
i think it's a pretty accurate since kubiak was responsible for play design and scripted plays, while (according to kyle - or atleast the quote here) shanahan had majority and then exclusive playcalling duties from week 6.

this is IMO the greatest kubiak flaw. opposite of mike shanahan who wants control over each aspect, kubiak is WAY too quick to delegate. in itsself not a bad thing, but a big step backwards when "as soon as i gave him the playcalling responsibility, we won back to back championships" is instead passing on that role to a kid. kubiak's studying that denny's menu because he doesnt have anything else to do until a coordinator starts racking up penalties. unlike capers who was seen by some as a monday through saturday coach, kubiak is built for sunday. we're moving in the right direction, but will only finish the job when kubiak's footprint on the texans becomes him personally stomping on other teams' throats - IMO that's going to require him assuming the role of Alpha and Omega on offense on sundays.

HoustonFrog
01-12-2010, 11:21 AM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/01/11/ranking-the-offensive-coordinators

I find that very accurate...especially the AJ stuff.

Quick story to illustrate. Over Christmas I'm in Turks and Caicos at a resort. They aren't showing alot of the day games like the Texans, etc so I'm keeping up with fantasy stats through my brother in laws laptop...my team in the finals in both my leagues. I have AJ on one of them. Somewhere in the 3rd quarter AJ has 5 catches, 72 yards and a TD(estimate). 3rd and 4th quarter go by......Miami making a comeback....yet by games end AJs stats were the same as above. Didn't move. He should be getting fed the ball.

disaacks3
01-12-2010, 11:22 AM
Boy, that thing reads like a word-for-word criticism from many of the users here on TT. It's not that we think Kubiak CAN'T get it done, but that he goes into a shell once ahead, and doesn't emerge again until (sometimes) it's too late.

El Tejano
01-12-2010, 11:31 AM
Not making excuses but I have a good feeling that alot of our second half ineptness comes from the inability to run the football. I noticed that it seemed like Kubiak tries to run more with a lead (like anyone would) but he tries to force it to work because he knew eventually we are going to have to run the football at some point in the game/season.

Does anyone think that this was the case?

The Pencil Neck
01-12-2010, 11:36 AM
Actually, it's looked to me like if we have success early, we kinda shut down late and just try to hang on. (Niners, Colts, Dolphins) Sometimes we won those games, sometimes not.

If we don't have success early, we seem to make some corrections and come out and find a way to get it done in the second half (Cardinals, Bills games for example.)

The most complete game was the Patriot game but even then it was more of the second type than the first.

Kubiak's concept is that you get a lead and then you pound the hell out of your opponent with the run. And that's a great strategy if you've got a good running game. The problem is, we couldn't run worth crap until the last couple of games.

disaacks3
01-12-2010, 12:06 PM
Actually, it's looked to me like if we have success early, we kinda shut down late and just try to hang on. (Niners, Colts, Dolphins) Sometimes we won those games, sometimes not.

If we don't have success early, we seem to make some corrections and come out and find a way to get it done in the second half (Cardinals, Bills games for example.)

The most complete game was the Patriot game but even then it was more of the second type than the first.

Kubiak's concept is that you get a lead and then you pound the hell out of your opponent with the run. And that's a great strategy if you've got a good running game. The problem is, we couldn't run worth crap until the last couple of games. Going away from what you do well has never seemed like a particularly good approach. This applies to BOTH sides of the ball. I don't think you need to be running "trick plays" when you're up by 30 in the 4th quarter, but I also don't believe in playing prevent OFFENSE either.

Malloy
01-12-2010, 12:09 PM
Going away from what you do well has never seemed like a particularly good approach. This applies to BOTH sides of the ball. I don't think you need to be running "trick plays" when you're up by 30 in the 4th quarter, but I also don't believe in playing prevent OFFENSE either.

I agree, if it aint broke, dont fix it!

Scooter
01-12-2010, 12:23 PM
i challange the selective memory here to look at the actual plays called.

4Texans
01-12-2010, 12:26 PM
That all sounds very familiar, like I've heard that before somewhere.........:thinking:





Oh, on this board.... I have to agree, it's accurate. Hopefully next season we'll see them stay aggessive for 4 qtrs.

silvrhand
01-12-2010, 12:43 PM
Not making excuses but I have a good feeling that alot of our second half ineptness comes from the inability to run the football. I noticed that it seemed like Kubiak tries to run more with a lead (like anyone would) but he tries to force it to work because he knew eventually we are going to have to run the football at some point in the game/season.

Does anyone think that this was the case?

When you throw the ball for almost 300 yards in a half, you do what's working for you and KEEP throwing the ball. Going away from your strength and what's working for you goes against all logic...

When they find a way to stop what you are doing, then you adjust, not adjust and screw yourself up.

The Pencil Neck
01-12-2010, 12:44 PM
i challange the selective memory here to look at the actual plays called.

AJ averages 17 yards per catch in the first half and 14 yards per catch in the second. He scored 6 TD's in the first half and 3 TD's in the second. He's scored 3 TD's in the 1st quarter, 3 TD's in the 2nd quarter, 0 TD's in the 3rd quarter, and 3 TD's in the 4th. (He's also only scored 3 TD's at home this year.)

AJ is 23 receptions for 316 yards and 2TDs when we're ahead. He's 48 receptions for 685 yards and 5 TD's when we're behind. He's 30 receptions for 568 yards and 2 TD's when we're tied.

By quarter:
1st quarter: 29 receptions for 496 yards, 8 20+ yards, 3 40+ yards
2nd quarter: 25 receptions for 420 yards, 6 20+ yards, 2 40+ yards
3rd quarter: 25 receptions for 280 yards, 3 20+ yards, 1 40+ yards
4th quarter: 22 receptions for 373 yards, 5 20+ yards, 3 40+ yards

I don't know. Maybe he gets tired and then catches his second wind in the 4th.

silvrhand
01-12-2010, 12:47 PM
I find that very accurate...especially the AJ stuff.

Quick story to illustrate. Over Christmas I'm in Turks and Caicos at a resort. They aren't showing alot of the day games like the Texans, etc so I'm keeping up with fantasy stats through my brother in laws laptop...my team in the finals in both my leagues. I have AJ on one of them. Somewhere in the 3rd quarter AJ has 5 catches, 72 yards and a TD(estimate). 3rd and 4th quarter go by......Miami making a comeback....yet by games end AJs stats were the same as above. Didn't move. He should be getting fed the ball.

I can think of maybe 1 or 2 times the ENTIRE year that we tossed the ball to Andre while in the redzone. I'm sorry but I'm all for going to your best guy with his best play and let him make a play. Who cares if they know it's coming, if you know it's coming and you still can't stop it then keep running the play.

I guess I'm just too old fashioned, I can rememember many a games that you know who was getting the ball, where he was going, and man up and come try to stop us.

silvrhand
01-12-2010, 12:48 PM
By quarter:
1st quarter: 29 receptions for 496 yards, 8 20+ yards, 3 40+ yards
2nd quarter: 25 receptions for 420 yards, 6 20+ yards, 2 40+ yards
3rd quarter: 25 receptions for 280 yards, 3 20+ yards, 1 40+ yards
4th quarter: 22 receptions for 373 yards, 5 20+ yards, 3 40+ yards

I don't know. Maybe he gets tired and then catches his second wind in the 4th.

Compare this to the # of times we run the ball per quarter and I think you'll have your answer.

Goatcheese
01-12-2010, 12:50 PM
I can think of maybe 1 or 2 times the ENTIRE year that we tossed the ball to Andre while in the redzone.

Then you're not thinking very much, if at all.

The Pencil Neck
01-12-2010, 12:53 PM
I can think of maybe 1 or 2 times the ENTIRE year that we tossed the ball to Andre while in the redzone. I'm sorry but I'm all for going to your best guy with his best play and let him make a play. Who cares if they know it's coming, if you know it's coming and you still can't stop it then keep running the play.

I guess I'm just too old fashioned, I can rememember many a games that you know who was getting the ball, where he was going, and man up and come try to stop us.

That's a crazy statement. I can think of games where he was targetted 3-4 times in the red zone.

The Pencil Neck
01-12-2010, 12:58 PM
Compare this to the # of times we run the ball per quarter and I think you'll have your answer.

I don't have the running stats, I'd have to go through the situational stats and add everyone's rushing attempts up, but I do have Schaub's stats.

1st quarter: 92/133 for 1233 yards and 8 TD's, 4 INT's.
2nd quarter: 110/163 for 1445 yards and 11 TD's, 2 INT's.
3rd quarter: 91/133 for 984 yards for 5 TD's and 5 INT's.
4th quarter: 103/154 for 1128 yards for 5 TD's and 4 INT's.

So we had 8 fewer passes made in the 2nd half vs. the 1st half. Less than half a pass per game. That doesn't sound like we're radically changing what we do in the 2nd half. It just looks like we're not doing it as effectively.

silvrhand
01-12-2010, 01:19 PM
Then you're not thinking very much, if at all.

Probably, thinking more of home games but let's look anyways.

When we are in the redzone we completed 14 passes to him, with only 3 TD's at home. I could not find the # of attempts to him in the red zone though, I'm guessing since he had only 7 drops all year according to CBS, that we didn't go to him much more often.

Red Zone: Home & Away
OPP 19-1 - BY YARD LINE 0 14 137 9.8 197 11 7 8.6 00

3rd Down Usage
THIRD DOWN 0 21 282 13.4 492 14 6 6.7 41

IMHO, we should be going to him more in these situations.

silvrhand
01-12-2010, 01:33 PM
That's a crazy statement. I can think of games where he was targetted 3-4 times in the red zone.

The red zone completion stats don't support that, now that being said I *COULD* be wrong but I can think of many games in the red zone that we ran on 1st/2nd down and didn't get the ball to Andre. Later in the year we did get better about it, and it had a marked improvement in his red zone efficiency. I also had him on my fantasy team so I was intently watching his chances when he was in the red zone, but again my memory could be shit.

Now that being said I am looking at the situational stats, and need to really sit down and put together some numbers, cause I can't find a site that has all the #'s for me.

I just don't have time considering doing it this weekend.

The Pencil Neck
01-12-2010, 03:22 PM
The red zone completion stats don't support that, now that being said I *COULD* be wrong but I can think of many games in the red zone that we ran on 1st/2nd down and didn't get the ball to Andre. Later in the year we did get better about it, and it had a marked improvement in his red zone efficiency. I also had him on my fantasy team so I was intently watching his chances when he was in the red zone, but again my memory could be shit.

Now that being said I am looking at the situational stats, and need to really sit down and put together some numbers, cause I can't find a site that has all the #'s for me.

I just don't have time considering doing it this weekend.

Just because he only got 14 receptions when we were in the red zone doesn't mean he wasn't targetted more often than that. I mean, just go back to Patriot game and the possession where we gave up the ball at the 1. AJ caught a couple of passes in the red zone to get us into that situation AND THEN was targetted for a fade on 4th down that he couldn't get free on. That's 3 targets right there.

Scooter
01-12-2010, 03:56 PM
It just looks like we're not doing it as effectively.

ding. we begin the game with run and pass options. and we adjust at halftime to ... ummm ... more pass options? sitting on the ball in the 4th quarter is only where we skew the stats, it's not going conservative at halftime. kubiak wants to run, just like shanahan wants to run, just like walsh wanted to run ... picking up first downs while winding the clock is fantastic, but each of these coaches is running because it puts their best players in open space. despite the result, our rosencopter performance is the the playcalling opportunity kubiak drools over with a lead. forget the second half of games this season, did we even run a bootleg after game 3?

andre is triple covered after halftime, walter is doubled, dreessen just dropped a 7 yarder, and we cant run for 2 yards against a prevent defense. you make the call.

The Pencil Neck
01-12-2010, 04:53 PM
ding. we begin the game with run and pass options. and we adjust at halftime to ... ummm ... more pass options? sitting on the ball in the 4th quarter is only where we skew the stats, it's not going conservative at halftime. kubiak wants to run, just like shanahan wants to run, just like walsh wanted to run ... picking up first downs while winding the clock is fantastic, but each of these coaches is running because it puts their best players in open space. despite the result, our rosencopter performance is the the playcalling opportunity kubiak drools over with a lead. forget the second half of games this season, did we even run a bootleg after game 3?

andre is triple covered after halftime, walter is doubled, dreessen just dropped a 7 yarder, and we cant run for 2 yards against a prevent defense. you make the call.

I read something like this and I wonder if you're watching the games. I mean, are you serious? Is this just hyperbole or something?

steelbtexan
01-12-2010, 09:30 PM
Rosencopter took away Kubes go for the throat mentality.

Kubes has to get over it or year 5 will be his last year here. IMO

Wolf
01-12-2010, 10:37 PM
if we could run the ball efficiently, I think we would see a different view of this offense "going into a shell" after a lead.. running the ball eats clock time and gives the defense a rest .

I think of a couple of things
our inability to run the ball would make Buddy Ryan throw a punch at.....

and I think it was
bum Phillips that said when passing the ball 3 things can happen and 2 of them are bad (incompletions and Ints)

m5kwatts
01-12-2010, 11:05 PM
Is anyone else astonished that Jason Garrett is #1 on this list? I'm not saying the Cowturds offense is bad or anything, its definitely top 10. But THE best OC in football? Did they forget how bad the offense struggled last year?

ArlingtonTexan
01-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Is anyone else astonished that Jason Garrett is #1 on this list? I'm not saying the Cowturds offense is bad or anything, its definitely top 10. But THE best OC in football? Did they forget how bad the offense struggled last year?

Trust me as a DFW resident, most Cowboy fans think Garrett is way overrrated and if anything they would rather our guys than him.

thunderkyss
01-12-2010, 11:24 PM
....yet by games end AJs stats were the same as above. Didn't move. He should be getting fed the ball.

I've rewatched the Miami game several times. That game was one identified as a game where we went conservative in the second half. But watching it, and looking at the plays called, I don't think we lost our aggressiveness, I think we lost our "sharpness."

I know it sounds like I'm always defending Kubiak, but we were still trying to throw the ball in the second half, it just wasn't working out. AJ was running his butt off. But either Schaub didn't feel that AJ was open, or AJ wasn't getting open.

I recognized this early in the season... & believe it is up to Kubiak to fix it. I just don't think it's a matter of the play calling as I think it's an issue of execution.