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bckey
01-10-2010, 09:15 AM
Joe Logan of EastAurora.org wrote wednesday night that Cowher is "OK" with the Bills' salary offer, but that Cowher wants a "commitment" from Russ Brandon regarding the money that would be available to sign players.

Don't know if Cowher would really sign with the Bills but there really aren't going to be that many opportunities this year to fill hc vacancies. And the teams that have vacancies are not really too enticing for big name coaches.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/07/bills-could-still-be-chasing-cowher/

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=tsn-arecowherbillsincont&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Lucky
01-10-2010, 09:29 AM
If Cowher shuffles off to Buffalo, that should dismiss the notion that he was unobtainable by the Texans. Of course he was obtainable. It was rumored that Houston was one of his top 2 favored landing spots.

This may hav been the best head coaching talent pool that was ever available in one offseason. Cowher, Shanahan, Carroll, possibly Gruden. But,the Texans stuck with Kubiak. OK, let's move on. However, never let it be said that the Texans couldn't have found someone better. They could have.

Second Honeymoon
01-10-2010, 11:28 AM
exactly. cowher would have came here in a heartbeat.

but .500 Kubiak is da bomb, so lets stick with him. after all he isn't a losing head coach anymore...but he ain't a winning head coach either. just a flatlining good ole boy local hero who never met a big game he couldn't lose

Dan B.
01-10-2010, 11:32 AM
exactly. cowher would have came here in a heartbeat.

but .500 Kubiak is da bomb, so lets stick with him. after all he isn't a losing head coach anymore...but he ain't a winning head coach either. just a flatlining good ole boy local hero who never met a big game he couldn't lose

I'm done with the debate. I'm a koolaid drinking Kubiak worshiper again til next year. Or at least until the FA period.

Lucky
01-10-2010, 11:42 AM
I'm done with the debate.
I'm not trying to re-open that can of worms. What's done is done. I just wanted to dismiss the argument that there wasn't a better option to Kubiak available to the Texans. That was a crock.

awtysst
01-10-2010, 11:47 AM
If Cowher shuffles off to Buffalo, that should dismiss the notion that he was unobtainable by the Texans. Of course he was obtainable. It was rumored that Houston was one of his top 2 favored landing spots.

This may hav been the best head coaching talent pool that was ever available in one offseason. Cowher, Shanahan, Carroll, possibly Gruden. But,the Texans stuck with Kubiak. OK, let's move on. However, never let it be said that the Texans couldn't have found someone better. They could have.

Wait a moment Lucky lets be careful with that. I am not sure we could have gotten any of the names you mentioned.

Cowher to Buffalo is not a done deal. He may be trying to see if any teams he is interested in would be willing to pull a Seattle (ie dump their coach for him). I think he really wanted the Carolina job and may be holding out for that one. He may even decide to become a Head of Football operations like Holgrimm.

Shanahan was never going to come here. He is too close to Kubiak to do that. Furthermore, the Texans would not bring him in anyway. If Kubes was fired they would go in a completely different direction.

Carroll is not some dynamic coach. He was average in the NFL. He made a living beating up on a weak Pac 10 for years. I am not convinced he is going to do much in the NFL. In college he can out recruit his rivals, but its not as easy in the NFL to do that. Salary caps prevent that type of accumulation of talent. Besides he wants to be in a place that is pro-Carroll. Seattle Washington is full of USC alums that kow tow to him. Think there are a ton of USC alums in Htown that will do that?! Nah. Htown are full of UT alums. Now, if Mack Brown came to the Texans, HE would get the kow towing.

And finally we come to Gruden. I don't get what people like so much about Gruden. He took a team that Tony Dungy built and won a superbowl. When it was time for him to find additional players to keep it going he failed. He is the classic right guy in the right place situation.

So, could we have fired Kubiak, sure. And if we do next year who may be available? Well Gruden is still there. Cowher may still be there. And perhaps another hot college coach (like Harbaugh at Stanford) or the current hot coordinator like Frazier?

thunderkyss
01-10-2010, 12:04 PM
Cowher to Buffalo is not a done deal. He may be trying to see if any teams he is interested in would be willing to pull a Seattle (ie dump their coach for him). I think he really wanted the Carolina job and may be holding out for that one. He may even decide to become a Head of Football operations like Holgrimm.


The thing about Cowher, that I don't understand, is that he says he doesn't want to go somewhere that doesn't have an established QB. That's one of the things that fueled the rumor that HTown was on his short list. We have a QB, Buffalo don't.

But then the rumors are that Carolina is also on that short list. They don't have an established QB.

Cowher had trouble finding a QB that could do what he wanted him to do. He hit gold, with BigBen, but he wouldn't let him throw the ball. I can't imagine what he would have done with Schaub. Schaub can't do the things that Kordell Stewart, Charlie Batch, BigBen could do... not the things that Cowher allowed them to do anyway.

WWJD
01-10-2010, 12:08 PM
I'd be shocked if Cowher went to Buffalo but I guess there is that possibility now..

but hey who ever thought Carroll would leave USC for the Seattle job?

ChampionTexan
01-10-2010, 12:24 PM
I'd be shocked if Cowher went to Buffalo but I guess there is that possibility now..

but hey who ever thought Carroll would leave USC for the Seattle job?

I believe that Seattle is a really good NFL job. It's an absolutely fantastic place to live (which may not matter to you that much if you work 100 hours a week, but it might be important to your wife and kids), you have the wealthiest owner in the NFL, you have a fan-base that from what I can tell is extremely supportive (see the whole twelfth man thing), but is a little bit more "well adjusted" than Philly, New York, and those types of fans. I don't think the media is going to be anything like he saw with the Jets or the Pats, and finally, you're coaching in the NFC West, and while the Cards have been good for a couple years, I'll believe that's sustainable when I see it.

I don't know if he'll succeed, and I don't really have a rooting interest either way, but it should be far easier to be a successful NFL head coach in Seattle that it was in either New York or Boston.

WWJD
01-10-2010, 12:35 PM
I believe that Seattle is a really good NFL job. It's an absolutely fantastic place to live (which may not matter to you that much if you work 100 hours a week, but it might be important to your wife and kids), you have the wealthiest owner in the NFL, you have a fan-base that from what I can tell is extremely supportive (see the whole twelfth man thing), but is a little bit more "well adjusted" than Philly, New York, and those types of fans. I don't think the media is going to be anything like he saw with the Jets or the Pats, and finally, you're coaching in the NFC West, and while the Cards have been good for a couple years, I'll believe that's sustainable when I see it.

I don't know if he'll succeed, and I don't really have a rooting interest either way, but it should be far easier to be a successful NFL head coach in Seattle that it was in either New York or Boston.

I'll agree about Seattle being a great place, great job and all that but my opinion of him leaving is based solely on the "he has it made" theory...he had a tremendous few years going there in USC and it's odd that he would leave that comfort zone to take over a losing NFL team..when he's been fired from Nfl HC jobs. That's all I 'm saying.

UNLESS like others think and have posted that there is a brewing NCAA storm coming USC's way.

In that case it makes perfect sense for him to leave. Get out while the getting's good.

GuerillaBlack
01-10-2010, 12:43 PM
If Cowher shuffles off to Buffalo, that should dismiss the notion that he was unobtainable by the Texans. Of course he was obtainable. It was rumored that Houston was one of his top 2 favored landing spots.

This may hav been the best head coaching talent pool that was ever available in one offseason. Cowher, Shanahan, Carroll, possibly Gruden. But,the Texans stuck with Kubiak. OK, let's move on. However, never let it be said that the Texans couldn't have found someone better. They could have.

Would anyone sacrifice this "winning" season for an 8-8 record, but with Cowher becoming our coach next year?

GuerillaBlack
01-10-2010, 12:46 PM
I believe that Seattle is a really good NFL job. It's an absolutely fantastic place to live (which may not matter to you that much if you work 100 hours a week, but it might be important to your wife and kids), you have the wealthiest owner in the NFL, you have a fan-base that from what I can tell is extremely supportive (see the whole twelfth man thing), but is a little bit more "well adjusted" than Philly, New York, and those types of fans. I don't think the media is going to be anything like he saw with the Jets or the Pats, and finally, you're coaching in the NFC West, and while the Cards have been good for a couple years, I'll believe that's sustainable when I see it.

I don't know if he'll succeed, and I don't really have a rooting interest either way, but it should be far easier to be a successful NFL head coach in Seattle that it was in either New York or Boston.

People act like he was bad in New England though. He made the playoffs two out of three years there...

infantrycak
01-10-2010, 01:33 PM
People act like he was bad in New England though. He made the playoffs two out of three years there...

Which doesn't make him good since he inherited a Parcells 11-5 team and they got worse each year he was there.

ChampionTexan
01-10-2010, 03:17 PM
Would anyone sacrifice this "winning" season for an 8-8 record, but with Cowher becoming our coach next year?

Without naming names, yes, I think several anyone's would do that in a heartbeat!

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 03:26 PM
If Cowher shuffles off to Buffalo, that should dismiss the notion that he was unobtainable by the Texans. Of course he was obtainable. It was rumored that Houston was one of his top 2 favored landing spots.

This may hav been the best head coaching talent pool that was ever available in one offseason. Cowher, Shanahan, Carroll, possibly Gruden. But,the Texans stuck with Kubiak. OK, let's move on. However, never let it be said that the Texans couldn't have found someone better. They could have.

Exactly. This kills the "Cowher ONLY want to go to Carolina because of his family" nonsense. In fact, I would take it a step further and say that Cowher actually WANTED to come here.

Texans fans have been dismissively saying "Cowher would never come here" as if we're some rinky dink franchise in a small town. We are one of the top franchises in the NFL and can get any coach out there - if we wanted to.

Texecutioner
01-10-2010, 03:27 PM
If Cowher shuffles off to Buffalo, that should dismiss the notion that he was unobtainable by the Texans. Of course he was obtainable. It was rumored that Houston was one of his top 2 favored landing spots.

This may hav been the best head coaching talent pool that was ever available in one offseason. Cowher, Shanahan, Carroll, possibly Gruden. But,the Texans stuck with Kubiak. OK, let's move on. However, never let it be said that the Texans couldn't have found someone better. They could have.

It's sad really. It's been reported for the last two weeks that he's been assembling a coaching staff together to coach for next season. He's been obviously waiting for the right spot to open. I highly doubt that "he wants" to coach in Buffalo. The Texans probably have the most attractive HC spot right now if they would have done what was right and fired Mr. 8-8. The fact that we would ignore a HOF in Cowher to hold on to an under achiever in Kubes who has proven nothing is just sad.

GuerillaBlack
01-10-2010, 03:31 PM
It's sad really. It's been reported for the last two weeks that he's been assembling a coaching staff together to coach for next season. He's been obviously waiting for the right spot to open. I highly doubt that "he wants" to coach in Buffalo. The Texans probably have the most attractive HC spot right now if they would have done what was right and fired Mr. 8-8. The fact that we would ignore a HOF in Cowher to hold on to an under achiever in Kubes who has proven nothing is just sad.

*sigh*

It hurts. This franchise is too loyal. Kris Brown is even still on the team.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 03:35 PM
It's sad really. It's been reported for the last two weeks that he's been assembling a coaching staff together to coach for next season. He's been obviously waiting for the right spot to open. I highly doubt that "he wants" to coach in Buffalo. The Texans probably have the most attractive HC spot right now if they would have done what was right and fired Mr. 8-8. The fact that we would ignore a HOF in Cowher to hold on to an under achiever in Kubes who has proven nothing is just sad.

I firmly believe that he actually wanted to come here. He announces a couple of weeks ago that he wanted to coach again. Then, Carolina decides to bring back John Fox.

No word from Cowher.

Then, a few hours after Bob McNair announces that Gary will return to the Texans, Cowher leaks that he's changed his mind and doesn't want to coach.

I have no idea whether this buffalo rumor has any credibility or not. But I will say that getting Bill Cowher wouldn't have been as hard as we think.

Texecutioner
01-10-2010, 03:41 PM
I firmly believe that he actually wanted to come here. He announces a couple of weeks ago that he wanted to coach again. Then, Carolina decides to bring back John Fox.

Agreed. ANd for all of those people that keep going on and on about Cowher going to Carolina didn't have a clue what they were talking about. Carolina was never going to fire Fox, because the financial consequences were going to be huge. They simply couldn't have afforded to ax Fox like that and then paid Cowher what he wanted with the situation that they're currently in. I posted a thread about this a while back actually where a writer broke the whole situation down. It was never going to happen.



Then, a few hours after Bob McNair announces that Gary will return to the Texans, Cowher leaks that he's changed his mind and doesn't want to coach.

I have no idea whether this buffalo rumor has any credibility or not. But I will say that getting Bill Cowher wouldn't have been as hard as we think.

I hope he doesn't go to buffalo. I'd hate to see Cowher have to go coach over there. He's one of my favorite coaches. Hopefully he'll wait it out one more season and maybe Mcnair will wake up and go after him after this next season.

thunderkyss
01-10-2010, 03:51 PM
Ok, break it down for me.

List all the proven, NFL, SuperBowl winning coaches who have gone on to a second team that were successful. I'm having a hard time thinking of any not named Bill Parcells, & he fell short of expectations in Dallas.

I'm not saying that Cowher can't be successful here, but I don't see anything to suggest that he would be more successful here in 2010 than Kubiak will be.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 03:54 PM
Agreed. ANd for all of those people that keep going on and on about Cowher going to Carolina didn't have a clue what they were talking about. Carolina was never going to fire Fox, because the financial consequences were going to be huge. They simply couldn't have afforded to ax Fox like that and then paid Cowher what he wanted with the situation that they're currently in. I posted a thread about this a while back actually where a writer broke the whole situation down. It was never going to happen.





I hope he doesn't go to buffalo. I'd hate to see Cowher have to go coach over there. He's one of my favorite coaches. Hopefully he'll wait it out one more season and maybe Mcnair will wake up and go after him after this next season.

Yeah, the guys over at national football post did a breakdown several weeks ago of Jake Delhomme's huge contract. Basically, that contract is going to haunt them for the next several years. They're going to be paying Delhomme tens of millions of dollars for the next several years, even if they release him.

Then you have the collapse of the banking industry. Charlotte is a banking town, and is hurting because of the banking collapse. I doubt if the Panthers are getting the same amount of corporate revenue they were getting even a few years ago.

Then, as you pointed out, there's John Fox's contract. Then, there's the qb issue. They will have to start all over at qb, which won't be cheap.

Cowher to Carolina has never been a done deal.

Wolf
01-10-2010, 04:04 PM
Ok, break it down for me.

List all the proven, NFL, SuperBowl winning coaches who have gone on to a second team that were successful. I'm having a hard time thinking of any not named Bill Parcells, & he fell short of expectations in Dallas.

I'm not saying that Cowher can't be successful here, but I don't see anything to suggest that he would be more successful here in 2010 than Kubiak will be.

true ..
I'd love to have Cowher, but I wonder how he would treat this offense. Would he change it to the type that he had with the Steelers? if so, how long would it take to rebuild it (again).. two years to get the personnel to fit his style,?

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 04:22 PM
true ..
I'd love to have Cowher, but I wonder how he would treat this offense. Would he change it to the type that he had with the Steelers? if so, how long would it take to rebuild it (again).. two years to get the personnel to fit his style,?

It's quite possible that Cowher would do NOTHING to the offense, and concentrate on the defense.

I don't believe a new coach, regardless of who it is, would come in there and tear down the entire team.

TexanSam
01-10-2010, 04:39 PM
I hope he doesn't go to buffalo. I'd hate to see Cowher have to go coach over there. He's one of my favorite coaches. Hopefully he'll wait it out one more season and maybe Mcnair will wake up and go after him after this next season.

We won't need him. Texans will go 11-5 next season and Cowher will go elsewhere

The Pencil Neck
01-10-2010, 05:03 PM
I'm with Thunderkyss on this.

Just because a coach was successful with one team, that's no more of a guarantee that he's going to be successful with another team than hiring a totally unknown position coach. Maybe worse.

To the best of my knowledge, no coach has ever won SB's with two different teams. Parcells has come the closest.

I think your best bet is to get a coach who's been a coordinator, give him his first HC job, and then stick with him as he figures it out.

So, I don't want Cowher or Gruden here.

Lucky
01-10-2010, 05:16 PM
Just because a coach was successful with one team, that's no more of a guarantee that he's going to be successful with another team than hiring a totally unknown position coach. Maybe worse.

So, I don't want Cowher or Gruden here.
If a Super Bowl winning head coach is unacceptable as the Texans head coach, then there can never be an adequate replacement for Gary Kubiak.

Gotcha.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 05:19 PM
I'm with Thunderkyss on this.

Just because a coach was successful with one team, that's no more of a guarantee that he's going to be successful with another team than hiring a totally unknown position coach. Maybe worse.

To the best of my knowledge, no coach has ever won SB's with two different teams. Parcells has come the closest.

I think your best bet is to get a coach who's been a coordinator, give him his first HC job, and then stick with him as he figures it out.

So, I don't want Cowher or Gruden here.

You're missing the point. The point is, he has a successful track record, which sort of means he's somewhat of a good coach. Nothing is guaranteed. It never is. But nothing is guaranteed with Kubiak, either.

Another coordinator? Are you kidding me? Hell no. We are done with allowing a coach to "figure it out." No more training wheels.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: Cowher, Gruden and Dungy are crappy coaches because they've won Super Bowls.

That's ridiculus.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 05:21 PM
If a Super Bowl winning head coach is unacceptable as the Texans head coach, then there can never be an adequate replacement for Gary Kubiak.

Gotcha.

LOL. Lucky, yeah, I had to read that post a few dozen times myself.

thunderkyss
01-10-2010, 05:41 PM
You're missing the point. The point is, he has a successful track record, which sort of means he's somewhat of a good coach. Nothing is guaranteed. It never is. But nothing is guaranteed with Kubiak, either.


Cowher & Gruden, had their share of mundane (failure) seasons as well. Gruden got fired... Bill Cowher winning the Super Bowl could just as easily fall into the blind pig category.

Don't get me wrong, if I thought that Kubiak couldn't get the job done, and needed to be replaced, there are several coaches I would like to have replace him.

Mike Singletary... hasn't proven squat, I know. But I like his attitude, & the attitude he is instilling into that team.

Tony Dungy.. he's all about teaching players to play, and teaching men to be men... I like that.

Tom Cable... he wouldn't be an automatic hire, I would like to talk to him though. I always liked coaches who are willing to get fired for being successful doing what they think is right, as opposed to a coach who is a failure doing what he is being "told" to do.

Brian Billick. again, I like his attitude.

Eric Mangini... yes, I like Mangini, & I think what he did in Cleveland this year, is probably the approach we should have took in 2006. The same thing Singletary did when he took the reigns last year.

Gruden... I would talk to gruden, to find out what he thinks happened in Tampa Bay. Depending on his answer, he could possibly have been on the top of my list.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 05:53 PM
Cowher & Gruden, had their share of mundane (failure) seasons as well. Gruden got fired... Bill Cowher winning the Super Bowl could just as easily fall into the blind pig category.

Don't get me wrong, if I thought that Kubiak couldn't get the job done, and needed to be replaced, there are several coaches I would like to have replace him.

Mike Singletary... hasn't proven squat, I know. But I like his attitude, & the attitude he is instilling into that team.

Tony Dungy.. he's all about teaching players to play, and teaching men to be men... I like that.

Tom Cable... he wouldn't be an automatic hire, I would like to talk to him though. I always liked coaches who are willing to get fired for being successful doing what they think is right, as opposed to a coach who is a failure doing what he is being "told" to do.

Brian Billick. again, I like his attitude.

Eric Mangini... yes, I like Mangini, & I think what he did in Cleveland this year, is probably the approach we should have took in 2006. The same thing Singletary did when he took the reigns last year.

Gruden... I would talk to gruden, to find out what he thinks happened in Tampa Bay. Depending on his answer, he could possibly have been on the top of my list.

I agree with this. I really like Billick and would have been fine with him coming here.

Mangini is a ********* that would ruin this team. He has no business coaching.

I like most of your list, and understand the point you're trying to make. You think we need a bit of attitude. I agree.

Lucky
01-10-2010, 05:55 PM
Bill Cowher winning the Super Bowl could just as easily fall into the blind pig category.

Don't get me wrong, if I thought that Kubiak couldn't get the job done, and needed to be replaced, there are several coaches I would like to have replace him.



Tom Cable.

Eric Mangini... yes, I like Mangini
Cowher's a blind pig. And your preference would be Tom Cable or Eric Mangini.

I have no comeback. You win the thread.

The Pencil Neck
01-10-2010, 06:10 PM
If a Super Bowl winning head coach is unacceptable as the Texans head coach, then there can never be an adequate replacement for Gary Kubiak.

Gotcha.

Oh, sure. You're right. You're right.

Let's call up George Seifert... how'd that work out for the Panthers?

Let's call up Mike Ditka... how'd that work out for the Saints?

If we're REALLY lucky, this SB winning HC might turn out like Mike Holmgren and give us a bunch of crappy years, a few winning seasons, and a SB loss.

Or maybe Parcells who'll come to our team, get us to the cusp, and leave.

Yeah.

Let's get right on that.

:sarcasm:

The Pencil Neck
01-10-2010, 06:16 PM
You're missing the point. The point is, he has a successful track record, which sort of means he's somewhat of a good coach. Nothing is guaranteed. It never is. But nothing is guaranteed with Kubiak, either.

Another coordinator? Are you kidding me? Hell no. We are done with allowing a coach to "figure it out." No more training wheels.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: Cowher, Gruden and Dungy are crappy coaches because they've won Super Bowls.

That's ridiculus.

But YOU'RE missing the point.

Just look at the history of what SB winning coaches have done when they've left their first teams and you'll find that most of them went down the tubes after that. Joe Gibbs, George Seifert, Mike Ditka, Hank Stram... etc. Parcells and Holmgren are the best arguments you've got and they're not the best arguments.

None of these "guys with a track record" have ever gotten back and won. None. And only one of these guys has gotten back to the SB at all. So, where's your argument? You want to hire a guy that's NOT going to win a SB with us.

Eventually one of these guys who've won a SB will go to another team and win another SB. But that's bucking long odds at this point. It's like having a running back who wins the rushing title. It sounds great on paper, but it doesn't win many Super Bowls.

thunderkyss
01-10-2010, 07:09 PM
Cowher's a blind pig. And your preference would be Tom Cable or Eric Mangini.

I have no comeback. You win the thread.

Bill Cowher is the best argument to give Kubiak one more year. Pittsburgh stuck with that mediocre coach, & look how that turned out for them?

Mangini & Cable aren't letting the media or a meddlesome owner tell them what to do.

Showtime100
01-10-2010, 07:13 PM
Bill Cowher is the best argument to give Kubiak one more year. Pittsburgh stuck with that mediocre coach, & look how that turned out for them?

Mangini & Cable aren't letting the media or a meddlesome owner tell them what to do.

This might sound like an argument but I mean no harm. Do you really think Al Davis is not a meddlesome owner?

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 07:17 PM
But YOU'RE missing the point.

Just look at the history of what SB winning coaches have done when they've left their first teams and you'll find that most of them went down the tubes after that. Joe Gibbs, George Seifert, Mike Ditka, Hank Stram... etc. Parcells and Holmgren are the best arguments you've got and they're not the best arguments.

None of these "guys with a track record" have ever gotten back and won. None. And only one of these guys has gotten back to the SB at all. So, where's your argument? You want to hire a guy that's NOT going to win a SB with us.

Eventually one of these guys who've won a SB will go to another team and win another SB. But that's bucking long odds at this point. It's like having a running back who wins the rushing title. It sounds great on paper, but it doesn't win many Super Bowls.

So, we stick with Kubiak instead of even considering a coach who has experience?

How do you know none of these guys are not going to win if they come here? Your argument is basically that those super bowl winning coaches are terrible. I reject that. They are better than Kubiak. That is a fact.

You want to talk about bucking the odds? Take a look at the genius we have coaching our team. The odds are, we're looking at 8-8 or 7-9 next year. Those odds are based on a four-year baseline of his performance.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 07:20 PM
Cowher's a blind pig. And your preference would be Tom Cable or Eric Mangini.

I have no comeback. You win the thread.

LOL. Co-sign.

Cowher is a terrible coach and Kubiak and Tom Cable are geniuses.

Alright then.

I think the freezing temperatures around here are getting to people.

Showtime100
01-10-2010, 07:22 PM
Personally I'd take Cowher in a heartbeat. If it weren't for Kubiak we'd be on the gamethread right now.

infantrycak
01-10-2010, 07:23 PM
Joe Gibbs, George Seifert, Mike Ditka, Hank Stram... etc. Parcells and Holmgren are the best arguments you've got and they're not the best arguments.

You could add in Jimmy Johnson.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 07:24 PM
Personally I'd take Cowher in a heartbeat. If it weren't for Kubiak we'd be on the gamethread right now.

Exactly. I'd be flying back from Cincy with a big-ass hangover right about now.

thunderkyss
01-10-2010, 07:42 PM
This might sound like an argument but I mean no harm. Do you really think Al Davis is not a meddlesome owner?

I know Davis is a meddlesome owner, that's why Cable is in the doghouse for benching Russell.

Showtime100
01-10-2010, 07:47 PM
I know Davis is a meddlesome owner, that's why Cable is in the doghouse for benching Russell.

Cool. My thought was if Davis wasn't meddlesome Cable would be a........cable guy and no longer the coach of the Raiders. I do understand what you were saying though.

thunderkyss
01-10-2010, 07:47 PM
You want to talk about bucking the odds? Take a look at the genius we have coaching our team. The odds are, we're looking at 8-8 or 7-9 next year. Those odds are based on a four-year baseline of his performance.

If I were looking at the data, I would think we'll either go 9-7, 10-6, or 11-5.

2007 & 2008, we finished 8-8. Looking at that, you could think our improvement would be so incrementally small, that you wouldn't see it in our record.... so we would have another 9-7 season.

From 2008 to 2009, our W-L column increased by one game, so the argument can be made that we'll finish 10-6.

From 2006to 2007, we improved by 2 wins, so we could argue that we'll go 11-5 in 2010.

I see nothing to suggest that we'll go backwards.

houstonspartan
01-10-2010, 07:53 PM
If I were looking at the data, I would think we'll either go 9-7, 10-6, or 11-5.

2007 & 2008, we finished 8-8. Looking at that, you could think our improvement would be so incrementally small, that you wouldn't see it in our record.... so we would have another 9-7 season.

From 2008 to 2009, our W-L column increased by one game, so the argument can be made that we'll finish 10-6.

From 2006to 2007, we improved by 2 wins, so we could argue that we'll go 11-5 in 2010.

I see nothing to suggest that we'll go backwards.

That's how I used to think. Last year, we went 8-8 and blew two key games. This year, I naievely added two more games to last years record, assuming that we would stay the same and all we had to do was win two more games. I predicted 10-6.

The reason I'm iffy about next year is our division record. Gary simply does not know how to win in our division. And our opponents in our division know us very well.

Our division record says a lot about us.

thunderkyss
01-10-2010, 08:15 PM
That's how I used to think. Last year, we went 8-8 and blew two key games. This year, I naievely added two more games to last years record, assuming that we would stay the same and all we had to do was win two more games. I predicted 10-6.

The reason I'm iffy about next year is our division record. Gary simply does not know how to win in our division. And our opponents in our division know us very well.

Our division record says a lot about us.

I was being facetious, you were talking about using Kubiak's 4 years as a baseline to predict an 8-8 or a 7-9 season.

I look at our team, & I know that we know what we want to do on offense. Very few teams can stop us at all, much less for a whole game. Kubiak has got this team clicking, & just like he was in Denver, his offense is top 5, if not top 10 in this league.

Defensively, again, we're good at doing what we want to do. Stop the run. We're ok at putting pressure on the QB, need to get better. but we're ok.

I don't care who we play next year, we're going to win more games than we lose, because we're a good football team, and most teams in the league are not. That's why the Colts & Pats can stay at the top for so long.

Texecutioner
01-10-2010, 08:31 PM
Bill Cowher is the best argument to give Kubiak one more year. Pittsburgh stuck with that mediocre coach, & look how that turned out for them?

Mangini & Cable aren't letting the media or a meddlesome owner tell them what to do.

YOu have said some of the craziest things in here I swear, but this one really takes the cake. Cowher isn't suitable, but Cable and Mangini are these great HC's that would be? YOu can't be taken seriously after that statement. :spit:

Hookem Horns
01-10-2010, 08:46 PM
It's always funny how everyone plays down Gruden's Super Bowl win because he took a Tony Dungy built team to the Super Bowl. The team he played against in the Super Bowl was a Gruden built team. So shouldn't Gruden at least get credit for building that Raiders team, and then get more credit for blowing out the team he built?

BTW, Dungy just couldn't get that Bucs team over the hump for years and Gruden was able to. I do think that Dungy is a good coach however I don't think it would be too far fetched that Gruden would have also been able to win a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and that Colts team.

Texecutioner
01-10-2010, 09:07 PM
It's always funny how everyone plays down Gruden's Super Bowl win because he took a Tony Dungy built team to the Super Bowl. The team he played against in the Super Bowl was a Gruden built team. So shouldn't Gruden at least get credit for building that Raiders team, and then get more credit for blowing out the team he built?

BTW, Dungy just couldn't get that Bucs team over the hump for years and Gruden was able to. I do think that Dungy is a good coach however I don't think it would be too far fetched that Gruden would have also been able to win a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and that Colts team.

Great post and I totally agree. Gruden deserves credit for the Raiders team being very good with a lot of talent and for getting the Bucs over the hump when Dungy couldn't.

He did slowly screw up the Bucs though as well. That offense was bad and never hardly improved and he played musical chairs with his QB's way to much. HIs players really couldn't stand playing for him and he was always having issues with his guys that messed up chemistry at times. He sort of ran himself out of town in Tampa though. I think it was probably a good lesson for him though and hopefully it humbled him a bit for his next gig whenever that might be and he becomes a better coach for it.

The Pencil Neck
01-10-2010, 09:30 PM
So, we stick with Kubiak instead of even considering a coach who has experience?

How do you know none of these guys are not going to win if they come here? Your argument is basically that those super bowl winning coaches are terrible. I reject that. They are better than Kubiak. That is a fact.

You want to talk about bucking the odds? Take a look at the genius we have coaching our team. The odds are, we're looking at 8-8 or 7-9 next year. Those odds are based on a four-year baseline of his performance.

If you're going to change your coach, then you look at the coaches who have won Super Bowls and you figure out where they came from.

Belichik, Dungy, Gruden, Shanahan, and several other coaches were guys who'd made teams that had won some games but hadn't won a Super Bowl... or even been to a SB. Holmgren, Billick and Tomlin or even go back to Cowher and you're looking at Coordinators or Position coaches who were given the chance and turned it into success.

So, like I said before, either a moderately winning coach on their second go-round or you take a chance on the hot, young coordinator/position coach.

That's where SB winning coaches have come from. That's the well you want to look at.

If you take a chance on a SB winning coach, then you're bucking the odds and expecting that coach to do something no one else has ever done.

The Pencil Neck
01-10-2010, 09:37 PM
It's always funny how everyone plays down Gruden's Super Bowl win because he took a Tony Dungy built team to the Super Bowl. The team he played against in the Super Bowl was a Gruden built team. So shouldn't Gruden at least get credit for building that Raiders team, and then get more credit for blowing out the team he built?

BTW, Dungy just couldn't get that Bucs team over the hump for years and Gruden was able to. I do think that Dungy is a good coach however I don't think it would be too far fetched that Gruden would have also been able to win a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and that Colts team.

Gruden built a really good Raider team and then took over a team that Dungy had taken to the brink. Gruden wasn't able to re-create his success by building another successful offense. His SB was based on him knowing the weaknesses of what he had built and giving his defense everything it needed to know to shut it down.

That Tampa Bay team might have been able to win that SB even with Dungy still at the helm but it might not have been able to beat the Raiders without Gruden's input. We'll never know.

Dungy OTOH was never able to build a really good defense in Indy. He inherited Manning and Harrison and those guys and he just basically stayed out of their way. It took him a long time to finally get his SB.

You frequently see coaches known for developing one side of the ball that can't get that side of the ball working. Billick never really got the high flying offense working at Baltimore.

cuppacoffee
01-10-2010, 11:16 PM
You could add in Jimmy Johnson.


Did Vince win one in Washington?


:coffee;

The Pencil Neck
01-11-2010, 01:26 AM
Did Vince win one in Washington?


:coffee;

You mean, Lombardi? No. He went 7-5-2 and missed the playoffs. He only won SB's in Green Bay.

IIRC, all of Washington's SB wins were Gibbs.

Hookem Horns
01-11-2010, 02:00 AM
Did Vince win one in Washington?



Vince Young? LOL, I would love to see VY win a Super Bowl for the Redskins. It would really jolt all of these Cowboys/VY fan yahoos around here.

Getting back on topic, no HC has ever won a SB with 2 different franchises. As someone mentioned Parcells was the closest. He probabaly would have done so if he wasn't so quick to bail on teams. IMO he is the greatest HC of all time.

The man had the Pats in the SB and the Jets in the AFC Championship game. He might have won another one with one of those franchises if he would have stuck it out. Notice I didn't mention Dallas. While he was respectable there, it wasn't going to work with Jerry Jones.

Goldensilence
01-11-2010, 10:16 AM
Vince Young? LOL, I would love to see VY win a Super Bowl for the Redskins. It would really jolt all of these Cowboys/VY fan yahoos around here.

Getting back on topic, no HC has ever won a SB with 2 different franchises. As someone mentioned Parcells was the closest. He probabaly would have done so if he wasn't so quick to bail on teams. IMO he is the greatest HC of all time.

The man had the Pats in the SB and the Jets in the AFC Championship game. He might have won another one with one of those franchises if he would have stuck it out. Notice I didn't mention Dallas. While he was respectable there, it wasn't going to work with Jerry Jones.

Holmgren was close as well. Packers then the Seahawks.

HoustonFrog
01-11-2010, 10:32 AM
Vince Young? LOL, I would love to see VY win a Super Bowl for the Redskins. It would really jolt all of these Cowboys/VY fan yahoos around here.

Getting back on topic, no HC has ever won a SB with 2 different franchises. As someone mentioned Parcells was the closest. He probabaly would have done so if he wasn't so quick to bail on teams. IMO he is the greatest HC of all time.

The man had the Pats in the SB and the Jets in the AFC Championship game. He might have won another one with one of those franchises if he would have stuck it out. Notice I didn't mention Dallas. While he was respectable there, it wasn't going to work with Jerry Jones.

I see this alot about he and Jerry but there is alot more too it. Parcells wasn't exactly winning big games and he was baiting and pushing Jerry as much as Jerry was doing his deal. Parcells drafted who he wanted....Ware, Spencer, etc..and he got "his guys." Jerry's main mistake was adding TO to the mix. That was a deal breaker. But I also think Parcells was tired of the grind and by the end was over the new media and the new players. who didn't really care for the psychological games. JMO. All Wade did was lighten up and go 13-3. He just didn't have some of the other skills as Parcells. But overall I respect what Parcells did with us. He infused talent that was missing since post-SB years.

Dan B.
01-11-2010, 04:41 PM
Just for the record, no QB has ever started and won the Super Bowl (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_Quarterbacks_have_won_superbowl_rings_with_m ultiple_teams) with two different teams either. The best argument you've got is Kurt Warner and Craig Morton. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_quarterbacks_with_multiple_Super_Bowl_star ts) I can't think of any RB's who signed elsewhere after a ring and won either, although there could easily be some. Regardless, you can't assume based on this one stat that Manning would be a failure elsewhere and that teams are better off signing someone else's backup. There's a reason that people winning multiple championships almost always do it with the same team. They have a good team around them.

4Texans
01-11-2010, 04:55 PM
I know Davis is a meddlesome owner, that's why Cable is in the doghouse for benching Russell.

I believe that was a strike against Lane Kifin also. He didn't want Russell either.

The Pencil Neck
01-11-2010, 06:26 PM
Just for the record, no QB has ever started and won the Super Bowl (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_Quarterbacks_have_won_superbowl_rings_with_m ultiple_teams) with two different teams either. The best argument you've got is Kurt Warner and Craig Morton. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_quarterbacks_with_multiple_Super_Bowl_star ts) I can't think of any RB's who signed elsewhere after a ring and won either, although there could easily be some. Regardless, you can't assume based on this one stat that Manning would be a failure elsewhere and that teams are better off signing someone else's backup. There's a reason that people winning multiple championships almost always do it with the same team. They have a good team around them.

It's very rare for a franchise QB or RB that's won a SB to leave their team and go to another great team while they're still in their prime.

Coaches that have a SB are sometimes able to put together another good team and win some games, but after 40 some odd years, no one's ever been able to recreate the magic with another team. So, if you're going to choose a new coach for your team, do you say "screw history" and take a chance on a SB winning coach or do you look at what's worked in the past and go with that?

I'd go with what's worked in the past. Either picking a hot coordinator and giving him a chance, or picking a coach who's had some success with another team but no SB wins. AND, I like the Steeler/Colt method of choosing a coach and then sticking with him for several years to give him a chance. The Titans and Jags are following that method but it hasn't paid off, yet.