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BSofA04
01-04-2010, 11:42 PM
I was really impressed with the improvement of our franchise LT in year #2. Last season he was a bit out of shape and rotating in and out with Ephraim Salaam (while still managing to give up 11.5 sacks). At times you could tell he was simply overwhelmed by the speed of the game and poor technique.

This past season you could see that he was holding his own against some formidable defenses and DE's. What's really impressive to me is how well he's done despite the Texans having to throw nearly 30-40 times a game.

For you stat gurus, I was able to find a site that shows sacks allowed and the median time...however it is only current as of 12/04.
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/12/04/between-the-lines-sacks-allowed-team-by-team/

Duane had given up 8 sacks, which was the worst, but it's the median time of 3.55 seconds that should be taken into serious consideration. What that's telling me is that Schaub had a tendency to hold onto the ball way too long. Unfortunately, it also means that we were throwing the ball way too much due to us being behind. 3.55 seconds in an eternity folks!

I wondering how many of those 8 sacks were truly his fault? Maybe half? Either way, it's very impressive. Compare that to Levi Brown of the Cardinals who had given up 6.5 sacks, but had a median time of 2.7 seconds. 2.7 seconds!

I'm feeling very good about Schaub's blind slide protector going forward and that's a first as a Texans fan. How do y'all feel going forward?

YoungTexanFan
01-05-2010, 12:12 AM
I'm still upset. Horrible value. Simply a bad pick. Maybe by his 4th year he'll be league average. You don't draft that type of player in the first round. He wasn't good in college, and he has been nothing but the same in the NFL.

Jackie Chiles
01-05-2010, 12:15 AM
I'm still upset. Horrible value. Simply a bad pick. Maybe by his 4th year he'll be league average. You don't draft that type of player in the first round. He wasn't good in college, and he has been nothing but the same in the NFL.

Honest question, where is the protection coming from if not partly from Duane? Schaub was sacked 25 times this season and just from watching the games I have been impressed with the pocket the line has provided him, especially the 2nd half of the season.

Carr Bombed
01-05-2010, 12:23 AM
I'm still upset. Horrible value. Simply a bad pick. Maybe by his 4th year he'll be league average. You don't draft that type of player in the first round. He wasn't good in college, and he has been nothing but the same in the NFL.

Horrible value. :rolleyes: A good young LT in the bottom of the first round is not "horrible value".

Carr Bombed
01-05-2010, 12:24 AM
Honest question, where is the protection coming from if not partly from Duane? Schaub was sacked 25 times this season and just from watching the games I have been impressed with the pocket the line has provided him, especially the 2nd half of the season.

Don't mind him......he's been wielding that ax at Duane Brown since the moment we picked Brown.

houstonspartan
01-05-2010, 12:51 AM
I haven't paid enough attention to Brown this year to comment on his work this season. But I do agree with you that SOMEBODY has been protecting Matt fairly well this year.

BSofA04
01-05-2010, 12:54 AM
I don't understand that hate 2 years after we drafted him. Like most others, I was upset/disappointed that there was such a massive run on LT's and we simply couldn't get anyone that was a household name. Duane was a project, but was the most athletic LT and had potential.

What if KC didn't draft Brandon Albert before we picked? It's possible we wouldn't have traded down with the Ravens and pulled the trigger on Albert. Would we be better off with Albert? Hell no. Was Ephraim the answer for 2008? Hell no. We had to draft a LT for the future and we lucked out that Duane wasn't picked earlier. It is widely believed that San Diego would've picked Brown at #27 if we selected CB Antoine Cason at #26. Brown fit the mold we were looking for and so far it has worked out.

The Texans with 25 sacks allowed are #5 in the NFL. That's outstanding considering that we lost Briesel, Pitts. When Schaub was sacked, I'd say half the time it was because he held onto the ball too long. But that's nit-picking on my part, Schaub was great this year.

b0ng
01-05-2010, 02:37 AM
I'm still upset. Horrible value. Simply a bad pick. Maybe by his 4th year he'll be league average. You don't draft that type of player in the first round. He wasn't good in college, and he has been nothing but the same in the NFL.

Really this idea seems to just sound like grudge holding from a draft 2 years ago. Matt Schaub is a league leading passer for a reason, and it's not because Eric Winston is so supreme he plays both tackle positions. Nobody is calling him a world beating stud but judging by other picks taken before him, he is not a bad LT from that draft.

keyser
01-05-2010, 02:57 AM
I think Duane Brown has done well - about how you'd expect someone drafted at the bottom of the first round to do. I don't think he's likely to ever be a pro bowler, but he's solid. He's done better than I expected (I thought, and still think to some degree, that he was a significant reach at that point). He's solidified that position, which was pretty much what we needed.

Still, I think he could be upgraded. Last year, I was wanting Oher, and though Cushing turned out to be absolutely great, I don't think we would have done bad at all had we picked Oher instead (Brown could have moved to the interior OL, which would have helped a lot this year).

Goatcheese
01-05-2010, 04:32 AM
Horrible value. :rolleyes: A good young LT in the bottom of the first round is not "horrible value".

Yep a good LT is great value at the bottom of the first round.

7.5 sacks for 56.5 yards, 10 QB hits, and 34 QB pressures

Hold on, let me find my pro bowl ballet. :challenge

Brisco_County
01-05-2010, 05:14 AM
Fire Duane Brown!!!1!!

TimeKiller
01-05-2010, 07:56 AM
I'm still upset. Horrible value. Simply a bad pick. Maybe by his 4th year he'll be league average. You don't draft that type of player in the first round. He wasn't good in college, and he has been nothing but the same in the NFL.

Worst.

Post.

Ever.

HOU-TEX
01-05-2010, 09:27 AM
I think he improved upon last season, but there's no doubt he needs to get better. Duane wasn't our primary problem along the Oline.

El Tejano
01-05-2010, 09:45 AM
You can't appreciate Duane Brown until our offense throws a screen to Slaton on Duane Brown's side. Then everything you hated about Brown is gone because so is Steve.

BigBull17
01-05-2010, 09:48 AM
He has holes in his game, but he isn't a scrubb that costs us games. Schaub holds the ball al long time and still doesn't get sacked that much. He normally has lots of time to scan the field. And Brown is unbelievable on sreens and any play he pulls.

GP
01-05-2010, 09:49 AM
You can't appreciate Duane Brown until our offense throws a screen to Slaton on Duane Brown's side. Then everything you hated about Brown is gone because so is Steve.

Good post. Rep your way, if it lets me.

Porky
01-05-2010, 09:51 AM
I'm still upset. Horrible value. Simply a bad pick. Maybe by his 4th year he'll be league average. You don't draft that type of player in the first round. He wasn't good in college, and he has been nothing but the same in the NFL.

LOL. That's about all I can say about that post.

Hardcore Texan
01-05-2010, 09:52 AM
I think he improved upon last season, but there's no doubt he needs to get better. Duane wasn't our primary problem along the Oline.

Agreed. Between Myers getting routinely rag-dolled and Winston getting beat around the edge half the time, clearly Brown did pretty well in pass pro.


You can't appreciate Duane Brown until our offense throws a screen to Slaton on Duane Brown's side. Then everything you hated about Brown is gone because so is Steve.

This is a point I was going to bring up, Brown's ability to get outside and block for those little screens to Slaton was fantastic. Very athletic for a big guy, a couple of those resulted in TD's.

YoungTexanFan
01-05-2010, 10:05 AM
It's not that I dislike us picking Brown. He's an NFL player, I'm not arguing that. It was still a terrible pick. It was a reach. It wasn't good value. He still hasn't produced enough to warrant that pick. It's like drafting Seth Wand at the bottom of the first round. Would anyone have been happy with that? If we had drafted Duane Brown in the third round, I would have been better with the pick. It also didn't help when we threw our project rookie LT, who gave up something close to 9 sacks in the ACC his senior year, into the starting role he clearly wasn't ready to handle. There is no telling if he will finally develop in his 3rd or 4th year to where we should/would pass on an upper tier LT in the 1st round. I hope he does, but if there is a tier-one LT, I draft him and move Brown.

YoungTexanFan
01-05-2010, 10:13 AM
Really this idea seems to just sound like grudge holding from a draft 2 years ago. Matt Schaub is a league leading passer for a reason, and it's not because Eric Winston is so supreme he plays both tackle positions. Nobody is calling him a world beating stud but judging by other picks taken before him, he is not a bad LT from that draft.

I haven't ever liked him. Even at VT. I didn't put him on my big board because he wasn't a top player. It's not about a grudge. I didn't like Johnathan Stewart and he's doing great. I can admit when I was wrong about players. I'm not wrong to this point about Duane Brown. I'm not saying he's "bad" but I'm saying he's not "good". He's passable. That isn't what you take in the first round. This is going on year 3 now for him. He still has potential because he was new to the OT position, and it still may "click" for him, but no NFL team should wait for that to happen while paying first round money and putting him at a premium position.

That's my point. Not that he won't stick in the NFL, not that he's costing us games, not that he isn't at least marginally improving...The point is that it wasn't a good pick. It was a reach and we compounded that by starting him in the NFL before he was ready.

BigBull17
01-05-2010, 10:23 AM
It's not that I dislike us picking Brown. He's an NFL player, I'm not arguing that. It was still a terrible pick. It was a reach. It wasn't good value. He still hasn't produced enough to warrant that pick. It's like drafting Seth Wand at the bottom of the first round. Would anyone have been happy with that? If we had drafted Duane Brown in the third round, I would have been better with the pick. It also didn't help when we threw our project rookie LT, who gave up something close to 9 sacks in the ACC his senior year, into the starting role he clearly wasn't ready to handle. There is no telling if he will finally develop in his 3rd or 4th year to where we should/would pass on an upper tier LT in the 1st round. I hope he does, but if there is a tier-one LT, I draft him and move Brown.

I would be cool with that, but Kubiak won't move him inside. Also won't move Winston to guard and move Brown to RT. But if an elite level LT fell to us, I would do it.

Goldensilence
01-05-2010, 10:23 AM
Really this idea seems to just sound like grudge holding from a draft 2 years ago. Matt Schaub is a league leading passer for a reason, and it's not because Eric Winston is so supreme he plays both tackle positions. Nobody is calling him a world beating stud but judging by other picks taken before him, he is not a bad LT from that draft.

Only LT's taken before Brown that have made a big impact have been #1 Jake Long and Ryan Clady, who might've been worth the move up.

Chris Williams has had trouble staying on the field, Cherilous and Albert have struggled. I'm almost expecting KC to pick a LT this year and move Albert in side to guard. Baker has been solid when he's been on the field.

Otah was moved to RT and I think he finished the year on IR.

Next LT taken was Greco in the third by St. Louis and he's a backup. Next two worth mentioning were Oniel Cousins taken with the last pick of the third and Anthony Collins in the 4th.

I agree Duane Brown isn't a stud, but he's not a scrub either. I think as the interior of our line improves so will our tackle play.

It's not that I dislike us picking Brown. He's an NFL player, I'm not arguing that. It was still a terrible pick. It was a reach. It wasn't good value. He still hasn't produced enough to warrant that pick. It's like drafting Seth Wand at the bottom of the first round. Would anyone have been happy with that? If we had drafted Duane Brown in the third round, I would have been better with the pick. It also didn't help when we threw our project rookie LT, who gave up something close to 9 sacks in the ACC his senior year, into the starting role he clearly wasn't ready to handle. There is no telling if he will finally develop in his 3rd or 4th year to where we should/would pass on an upper tier LT in the 1st round. I hope he does, but if there is a tier-one LT, I draft him and move Brown.

All things considered again, I don't think Brown's done horrible. The only guy I would've picked after trading down is Cason.

I'm just curious given the circumstances what would you have done?

YoungTexanFan
01-06-2010, 01:47 AM
Only LT's taken before Brown that have made a big impact have been #1 Jake Long and Ryan Clady, who might've been worth the move up.

Chris Williams has had trouble staying on the field, Cherilous and Albert have struggled. I'm almost expecting KC to pick a LT this year and move Albert in side to guard. Baker has been solid when he's been on the field.

Otah was moved to RT and I think he finished the year on IR.

Next LT taken was Greco in the third by St. Louis and he's a backup. Next two worth mentioning were Oniel Cousins taken with the last pick of the third and Anthony Collins in the 4th.

I agree Duane Brown isn't a stud, but he's not a scrub either. I think as the interior of our line improves so will our tackle play.



All things considered again, I don't think Brown's done horrible. The only guy I would've picked after trading down is Cason.

I'm just curious given the circumstances what would you have done?

I wanted Albert as an OG, not a LT. I never liked Williams or Otah. Especially not Otah as our LT. I also never liked the OT out of Pitt whom Dayne ran over. I never thought for a moment that he was an NFL caliber LT. I have a bias towards Collins, but he should have stayed another year. He was a first team AA but was still pretty unknown until the end of the season. Stupid choice that ended up stunting his potential.

I likely would have taken Cason (who should have come out the year prior) or Phillips. We needed (still do) a FS and I wouldn't bet against a FS from The U. It was a weak draft overall that was hyped too much, but we could have had better value from that pick. Duane Brown is an NFL player, but was never a first round talent. I had Duane Brown rated as the #74 overall talent on my big board. That's 3rd round. That's why I didn't and still don't agree with the pick.

beerlover
01-06-2010, 02:35 AM
there are some good tackles in this upcoming draft who could swing inside or tackle the ends, however they invision putting the jigsaw together. Just as long the emphasis is on improving the running game. I think Duane could be hell of a pulling guard, thats why the Texans coveted him because he can move to the second level in space. This will be the requrement for any linemen moving forward to succeed in a ZBS. Duane fits this scheme, is well liked by teammates & is showing progress, good enough for me. I'm really more puzzeled over Amobi Okoye & his lack of playmaking disruptive inside push that I expected coming out of Louisville.

TimeKiller
01-06-2010, 07:33 AM
He may have been a reach but he was also the best shot at filling the hole at LT. Salaam wasn't going to hack it. AND he's done pretty well, all things considered.

dalemurphy
01-06-2010, 08:01 AM
I wanted Albert as an OG, not a LT. I never liked Williams or Otah. Especially not Otah as our LT. I also never liked the OT out of Pitt whom Dayne ran over. I never thought for a moment that he was an NFL caliber LT. I have a bias towards Collins, but he should have stayed another year. He was a first team AA but was still pretty unknown until the end of the season. Stupid choice that ended up stunting his potential.

I likely would have taken Cason (who should have come out the year prior) or Phillips. We needed (still do) a FS and I wouldn't bet against a FS from The U. It was a weak draft overall that was hyped too much, but we could have had better value from that pick. Duane Brown is an NFL player, but was never a first round talent. I had Duane Brown rated as the #74 overall talent on my big board. That's 3rd round. That's why I didn't and still don't agree with the pick.


I find that quite funny! Your big board?... Mel Kiper is comical enough, acting like he has the inside story of the future of NFL players. When fans refer to their "big boards" as if they can define a good pick based on where it falls, that is pretty silly, IMO.

That being said, I don't mean to say that a fan can't make some judgements about how the team is operating in the draft. But, give me a break! Pleny of people had Brown rated late first round into early second round in the draft. But, regardless, in only his second season, he was the LT for a team that dropped back and threw the ball close to 600 times and yet allowed only 25 sacks... by the way, Kasey Studdard was lined up next to him for most of the year. Now, I'm not saying he's an elite player, but it's pretty ridiculous when fans are criticizing late first round draft picks that address primary needs on the team and are productive players almost immediately.

Hooston Texan
01-06-2010, 09:19 AM
I likely would have taken Cason (who should have come out the year prior) or Phillips. We needed (still do) a FS and I wouldn't bet against a FS from The U. It was a weak draft overall that was hyped too much, but we could have had better value from that pick. Duane Brown is an NFL player, but was never a first round talent. I had Duane Brown rated as the #74 overall talent on my big board. That's 3rd round. That's why I didn't and still don't agree with the pick.

We got a player who has held his own his first two years at one of the marquee positions in the NFL. A position where we basically had nobody going into the draft. When we made the choice, we had no second round pick, so we were going to have to wait 55+ picks before we got our next shot. Could we afford the risk of going into the 2008 season with only Salaam protecting Matt's backside?

In my mind, a "reach" is when you draft a player early that you probably could have gotten with a later pick. Maybe Brown would have been there at our mid-third-round pick, but we couldn't afford to take that chance at such a critical position. Our pick came after 7 of the first 25 picks were LTs (though some switched to RT), and the guy we got has outperformed most of the other players taken ahead of him aside from Jake Long and Clady.

YTF, I appreciate the work you put into the draft, including your big board. Your posts are very insightful, and I look forward to your stuff for this next draft. But when you are judging a draft that occurred two years ago, the grades should be based on on-field performance during those two years rather than draft board position at the time the pick was made. While playing next to a practice-squad-level LG on a pass-happy team that had no running game, Brown kept Schaub's jersey pretty clean. Indeed, most of the sacks he surrendered came after Schaub held the ball for longer than he should. But the fact that Matt feels like he can do that is a testament to how comfortable he is with his pass protection. Brown was not a successful player in college, but the coaches saw something in him that was worth grabbing. To this point, he's done his job.

leebigeztx
01-06-2010, 10:09 AM
Brown has done well no matter what a person thinks. not to mention, if we were a weakside sweep team where he could pull, he would be even better. I can make the case that if brown was a guard and this team ran g-power, people would really hype what he can do. He's a good player and he's getting better. They don't slide protection his way nor do they have to chip. The texans have a slow footed pocket passer who hold the ball a long time.

Hagar
01-06-2010, 10:39 AM
The Texans with 25 sacks allowed are #5 in the NFL. That's outstanding considering that we lost Briesel, Pitts. When Schaub was sacked, I'd say half the time it was because he held onto the ball too long. But that's nit-picking on my part, Schaub was great this year.
Wow, I didn't realize we did that well in pass protection.

How soon we forget the good old days of 2005. 68 total sacks and dead last in the NFL. Fun, fun, fun.

b0ng
01-06-2010, 11:13 AM
Wow, I didn't realize we did that well in pass protection.

How soon we forget the good old days of 2005. 68 total sacks and dead last in the NFL. Fun, fun, fun.

Put it to you like this, if your QB is the league leading passer and is rarely getting sacked, you can thank the O-line (Yes, even Chris Myers rollerskates and all), especially the LT since he will normally face the best pass rusher on the other team.

Fox
01-06-2010, 12:32 PM
While playing next to a practice-squad-level LG on a pass-happy team that had no running game, Brown kept Schaub's jersey pretty clean. Indeed, most of the sacks he surrendered came after Schaub held the ball for longer than he should. But the fact that Matt feels like he can do that is a testament to how comfortable he is with his pass protection. Brown was not a successful player in college, but the coaches saw something in him that was worth grabbing. To this point, he's done his job.

Repped, excellent post. I'm surprised that this debate is still going, I thought Duane took a big step forward and looked like a solid LT in year 2. The only times I really recall thinking that he was struggling was when he faced Freeney, and I'm giving our late first rounder some more time to solve that jig saw puzzle before I'm too upset about that. Combine his steady progression with his above-par athleticism that makes him such an asset on screens and I feel like our LT position is locked up for the foreseeable future (which is what I expect out of first round selections - steady progression and solidifying their respective positions). Not to mention the coaches seem pleased not only with his play, but with his toughness. Solid selection that I expect will continue to pay dividends, IMO.

eriadoc
01-06-2010, 01:25 PM
I think you Brown haters are overlooking that 3.55 second median time. Take a look at the list and the median times for some of the tackles you think are better. I can point to plays where Brown did a poor job, but I can also point to plays where he did an outstanding job. And I can't imagine that one of these other tackles y'all are mentioning would do much better with Schaub back there holding the ball for that long.

Put another way - if I'm an NFL GM, and someone guarantees me that some LT I'm thinking about drafting will give my QB 3.55 seconds of time on average, I'm taking it and telling the QB to be damn happy about it.

This team connects on big pass plays that take a long time to develop - more than any other team in the NFL, IIRC. Brown is a big part of why that happens. In fact, mark it down right now - I'm calling Duane Brown a bona fide success from that draft.

TexCanada
01-06-2010, 03:20 PM
Duane will benefit largely from a healthy Chester Pitts getting back in the line-up.

badboy
01-06-2010, 03:55 PM
Duane will benefit largely from a healthy Chester Pitts getting back in the line-up.I'm looking for info. Why do you think Texans will re-sign Chester Pitts as a free agent? He will be 31 next June.

Goatcheese
01-06-2010, 05:56 PM
I'm looking for info. Why do you think Texans will re-sign Chester Pitts as a free agent? He will be 31 next June.

O-linemen are not like running backs. They can play 15+ years. Kevin Mawae is 38 and still going strong on one of the NFL's best lines.

TexCanada
01-06-2010, 08:55 PM
I'm looking for info. Why do you think Texans will re-sign Chester Pitts as a free agent? He will be 31 next June.

I don't know for sure. My point is that Brown looks worse because of our crappy interior O-Line and he will be much better when we improve it.

BSofA04
01-06-2010, 09:34 PM
I think you Brown haters are overlooking that 3.55 second median time.
Bingo. Duane has been outstanding in giving Schaub ample time.

Big Lou
01-06-2010, 11:09 PM
I never really watched Brown specifically this season, but he seemed to hold his own to me. I really only recall like one or two times when someone just kicked his ass to get to Shaub, and 3.55 seconds average seems reasonable. Brown also gets to the next level, is a very athletic Tackle. There was a play this year when he got out on the flat and blew someone up for a bubble screan for a TD.

If anything I remember Winston whiffing several times this year. Although I like Winston he seems to be good for a couple of "LOOK OUT!!!" blocks a year, where your watching the game saying WTF just happened there, did you miss the snap count or something???

I think for our scheme we have book ends. The interior needs drmatic help, even Pitts seemed to struggle compared to previous years.