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View Full Version : John Clayton "Schaub now an elite QB"


JWarren14
12-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=4781193)

Despite battling a separated left shoulder, Schaub has played every game in 2009 and has had a monster year. He has passed for 4,467 yards, 27 touchdowns and completed 68.4 percent of his passes. His quarterback rating is 99.1 and he's kept Houston's offense ticking despite a butchered running attack. Schaub was selected as a Pro Bowl alternate and has the 8-7 Texans within a tiebreaker of being in the playoffs. Now that Schaub is established, the Texans have the chance to be an annual playoff contender.

It's scary what sort of offense we would have had with an even half decent running game and a healthy OD.

Let's hope we get him some playoff experience this year.

Ryan
12-30-2009, 04:22 PM
We are an interior offensive and defensive line away from being a playoff team every year i believe. Schaub is the man!:fans:

m5kwatts
12-30-2009, 04:22 PM
Missing from Clayton's case is the fact that Schaub lost his safety valve in OD halfway through the year... I'd be interested to see how certain elite QBs would perform without Dallas Clark, Wes Welker, Antonio Gates etc

Texan_Bill
12-30-2009, 04:27 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo!!! The ultimate jinx.

No More 8-8's
12-30-2009, 04:36 PM
In unrelated news; Sean Salisbury just punched a hole though a wall at the local bar he sleeps at.

ATXtexanfan
12-30-2009, 04:37 PM
Kudos to schaub. Lets hope he carries it into next year.

JWarren14
12-30-2009, 04:50 PM
In unrelated news; Sean Salisbury just punched a hole though a wall at the local bar he sleeps at.

Breaking News: Craig James just tucked his son Adam in for his afternoon nap!

Texecutioner
12-30-2009, 05:05 PM
Missing from Clayton's case is the fact that Schaub lost his safety valve in OD halfway through the year... I'd be interested to see how certain elite QBs would perform without Dallas Clark, Wes Welker, Antonio Gates etc

Peyton Manning has played just fine without Clark before and played just fine the minute that Harrison no longer was a great WR.

Tom Brady was already an elite QB way before Welker ever even got there and was running through multiple WR's every season.

Rivers has never played without Gates, but I'm pretty sure he'd still be a very good QB. He spreads the ball around very well.

Kaiser Toro
12-30-2009, 05:08 PM
And with the flick of a lisp Matt Schaub's agents are about to be neck deep in glitter and bad perfume.

GuerillaBlack
12-30-2009, 05:09 PM
Peyton Manning has played just fine without Clark before and played just fine the minute that Harrison no longer was a great WR.

Tom Brady was already an elite QB way before Welker ever even got there and was running through multiple WR's every season.

Rivers has never played without Gates, but I'm pretty sure he'd still be a very good QB. He spreads the ball around very well.

I think the point is, Schaub would be that much better had OD not gotten injured. Even better if we had the same running game as last year.

m5kwatts
12-30-2009, 05:14 PM
Peyton Manning has played just fine without Clark before and played just fine the minute that Harrison no longer was a great WR.

Tom Brady was already an elite QB way before Welker ever even got there and was running through multiple WR's every season.

Rivers has never played without Gates, but I'm pretty sure he'd still be a very good QB. He spreads the ball around very well.

Are you kidding? Manning has been spoiled with 1st round offensive toys to play with since the Colts drafted him. Every time they've had a hole they've filled it with a 1st rounder. Clark wasn't a 1st rounder but he's developed into one of Peyton's favorite target he's ever had.

I'll give you Brady but I'd still like to see how he'd do losing his most reliable target in the MIDDLE of the season not just in the offseason. Thats a huge difference having to change the offense mid-season.

And Rivers? Are you kidding? His first year as a starting QB LT broke every runningback record there is. He's had the best TE at his disposal every year. He's got big quality receivers to throw to and before this year their o-line was always a top 5 unit.

You can't tell me for a second Rivers and Manning haven't been spoiled with talent around them and have been fortunate enough to not lose major targets in the middle of the season.

Also, those 3 QB's are playing behind way better offensive lines than Schaub does. And while it may be only slightly, those 3 have better running games too.

Corrosion
12-30-2009, 05:19 PM
Are you kidding? Manning has been spoiled with 1st round offensive toys to play with since the Colts drafted him. Every time they've had a hole they've filled it with a 1st rounder. Clark wasn't a 1st rounder but he's developed into one of Peyton's favorite target he's ever had.

I'll give you Brady but I'd still like to see how he'd do losing his most reliable target in the MIDDLE of the season not just in the offseason. Thats a huge difference having to change the offense mid-season.

And Rivers? Are you kidding? His first year as a starting QB LT broke every runningback record there is. He's had the best TE at his disposal every year. He's got big quality receivers to throw to and before this year their o-line was always a top 5 unit.

You can't tell me for a second Rivers and Manning haven't been spoiled with talent around them and have been fortunate enough to not lose major targets in the middle of the season.

Also, those 3 QB's are playing behind way better offensive lines than Schaub does. And while it may be only slightly, those 3 have better running games too.

Maybe Manning and Rivers make those around them better.

DexmanC
12-30-2009, 05:22 PM
I think the point is, Schaub would be that much better had OD not gotten injured. Even better if we had the same running game as last year.

Our running game was a mirage. Slaton WAS our running game, as he
was the ONLY back since Kubes got here that could average 5 ypc.
Our line can't hold its blocks, but Slaton was very quick to the openings
the line could muster for that split second. Our coaching staff bought
fool's gold, and considers Myers and Brisiel 1st class starters, when in reality
those two are not as talented as their backups.

m5kwatts
12-30-2009, 05:23 PM
Maybe Manning and Rivers make those around them better.

I wouldn't deny that. But I maintain that neither of those 3 have dealt with the adversity Schaub has this year yet he's still performing at the same level as them.

ObsiWan
12-30-2009, 05:29 PM
Maybe Manning and Rivers make those around them better.

Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk were already studs before Manning was drafted. The Colts have been playing plug and play with their RB (Faulk/ Eggerin James/Joseph Addai) and WRs (Harrison/Wayne/Clark) ever since.

Is it Manning or the Colts system?

infantrycak
12-30-2009, 05:34 PM
Maybe Manning and Rivers make those around them better.

No doubt Manning gets rid of the ball better than anyone. At the same time can you not say Schaub makes those around him better? We went from having 60 sack seasons to having 20 something sack seasons. When was the last time you saw the QB run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage? AJ didn't sniff 1200 yds and now becomes the 2nd player in NFL history to get back to back 1500 yd seasons. TE, along with the entire middle of the field, was virtually invisible past 10 yards and now we have a 4th round guy who is still top half of TE's only having played 7 games.

Kaiser Toro
12-30-2009, 05:36 PM
Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk were already studs before Manning was drafted. The Colts have been playing plug and play with their RB (Faulk/ Eggerin James/Joseph Addai) and WRs (Harrison/Wayne/Clark) ever since.

Is it Manning or the Colts system?

Faulk's best season as a Colt (which was his fifth and last) was Manning's first year. Harrison did not take off until year two of Manning.

Texecutioner
12-30-2009, 05:38 PM
Are you kidding?

No, I'm not kidding. You asked the question, and I gave you the factual answer.



Manning has been spoiled with 1st round offensive toys to play with since the Colts drafted him. Every time they've had a hole they've filled it with a 1st rounder. Clark wasn't a 1st rounder but he's developed into one of Peyton's favorite target he's ever had.

You're really not informed here. Marvin Harrison is one of the best WR's of all time and he went down in the middle of the season. Actaully towards the beginning of it and he had been Manning's main WR for years. Manning still had a great season despite that.

Oh yeah, Austin Collie and Garcon are first round talent studs aren't they? Manning has made those guys look amazing.

I'll give you Brady but I'd still like to see how he'd do losing his most reliable target in the MIDDLE of the season not just in the offseason. Thats a huge difference having to change the offense mid-season.

The Patriots have had so many multiple WR's over the years before Moss and Welker ever got there. They have been the epitome of "plug and play."

And Rivers? Are you kidding? His first year as a starting QB LT broke every runningback record there is. He's had the best TE at his disposal every year. He's got big quality receivers to throw to and before this year their o-line was always a top 5 unit.

Antonio Gates has been "arguably" the best TE in the league in a few seasons. Witten has been right there with him practically every season and so has Gonzales. And a TE is never your main WR any way. He isn't supposed to be. Rivers didn't have any major weapons until this season once Jackson finally came on big time and at the end of last season when Jackson finally came on. Before that he was a big under achiever.

You can't tell me for a second Rivers and Manning haven't been spoiled with talent around them and have been fortunate enough to not lose major targets in the middle of the season.

I can totally tell you that Rivers hasn't and he's had less talent to work with than what Schaub has had. Are you honestly going to suggest to me that the Chargers have had one WR better than Andre Johnson? Please stop right there. Then he's also had Walter, Jones, Davis, and Anderson. That's a very nice collection of weapons in the receiving game.

I'll give you Manning before Harrison's big injury that tool place two seasons ago, but Manning's been without an ELITE Harrison for three years now and this year he made average guys look incredible.

Also, those 3 QB's are playing behind way better offensive lines than Schaub does. And while it may be only slightly, those 3 have better running games too.


You need to do some better research before making suggestions like this right here. Schaub has had a ton of weapons to utilize at his disposal and other than the Patriots with Moss and Welker he's had better weapons than the Colts and the Chargers.

Texecutioner
12-30-2009, 05:46 PM
I wouldn't deny that. But I maintain that neither of those 3 have dealt with the adversity Schaub has this year yet he's still performing at the same level as them.

Dude stop it. Scahub has had a very impressive season, but he has not played as good as Manning at all. Manning has been the epitome of a winner this entire decade and this season was no different for him. It was his typical magic and some of his best. Schaub is still trying to get past 8-8 while Manning has been undefeated.

It's great to see Schaub mentioned amongst some of these guys but he is not an elite QB "yet." He is right there behind the elites and on the cusp of it, but you've got to have at least two great individual seasons and at least one winning season before you can even be considered elite.

Schaub is not even a top 5 QB at this point and I consider the top 5ers the elitists. He is in the top 10 though this year for sure.

ObsiWan
12-30-2009, 05:52 PM
Faulk's best season as a Colt (which was his fifth and last) was Manning's first year. Harrison did not take off until year two of Manning.

Harrison had averaged nearly 70 catches and 800 yds the two yrs prior to Manning's arrival. Once Faulk left the offense stopped going thru him and started going more thru the receivers. Anyhow, this is minutia

Point is, Manning has always had multiple, solid (if not pro bowl), caliber weapons.

You know, the more we have this discussion, the more respect I have for Brady.

Double Barrel
12-30-2009, 05:55 PM
Maybe Manning and Rivers make those around them better.

Sort of like Andre Johnson. :texflag:

infantrycak
12-30-2009, 05:56 PM
Schaub is not even a top 5 QB at this point and I consider the top 5ers the elitists.

Ummm, yeah.

#1 in yds.
#3 in completion %.
#4 in ypa.
#1 in ypg.
#6 on TD's.
#2 on 1st downs.
#6 on 1st down %.
#2 on passes over 20 yards (by 1).
#6 on QB rating.

Without a running game or his 2nd favorite target for half the season.

Texecutioner
12-30-2009, 05:58 PM
Harrison had averaged nearly 70 catches and 800 yds the two yrs prior to Manning's arrival. Once Faulk left the offense stopped going thru him and started going more thru the receivers. Anyhow, this is minutia

Point is, Manning has always had multiple, solid (if not pro bowl), caliber weapons.

You know, the more we have this discussion, the more respect I have for Brady.

This is all true and it's one of the reasons why I've always considered Brady the better QB between him and Manning. However though, this was the first real season where Harrison wasn't even on the team and Gonzales was looking really good with Manning early on and he looked like he was going to fill the void. Then he went down and Manning has been sensational all year with Collie and Garcon, so he's pretty much proven now that he can be just as good without all elite WR's. Wayne is still there, but Manning has been tremendous with all of his weapons this season.

infantrycak
12-30-2009, 06:01 PM
Then he went down and Manning has been sensational all year with Collie and Garcon, so he's pretty much proven now that he can be just as good without all elite WR's. Wayne is still there, but Manning has been tremendous with all of his weapons this season.

You seem to discount both Wayne and the years Manning had with Wayne and Harrison both. Manning is fantastic but he has had great tools. The Texans have never had a Wayne caliber player as their #2 WR. But Schaub has good tools at the same time.

Texan_Bill
12-30-2009, 06:04 PM
Ummm, yeah.

#1 in yds.
#3 in completion %.
#4 in ypa.
#1 in ypg.
#6 on TD's.
#2 on 1st downs.
#6 on 1st down %.
#2 on passes over 20 yards (by 1).
#6 on QB rating.

Without a running game or his 2nd favorite target for half the season.

Those damn TD's, 1st downs and QB rating. Schaub sucks.

Texecutioner
12-30-2009, 06:05 PM
Ummm, yeah.

#1 in yds.
#3 in completion %.
#4 in ypa.
#1 in ypg.
#6 on TD's.
#2 on 1st downs.
#6 on 1st down %.
#2 on passes over 20 yards (by 1).
#6 on QB rating.

Without a running game or his 2nd favorite target for half the season.

This is pure homerism to call him a top 5 when he's had one great statistical season.

Schaub is not considered in the top 5 of all QB's from any fans around the country.

In no particular order Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, and Big Ben have all proven more than Schaub has in their careers and have had better seasons in their careers as well. Unless you're going to call top 10 QB's elite then fine. I'd call the top 5 guys the elitists though. 3 of these QB's have won SB's, one has been to two AFC championships, and the other has been a flat out stud in his first two seasons as a starter and both of those seasons were better than Schaub's and that is Rodgers.

Texan_Bill
12-30-2009, 06:06 PM
BTW, after Faulk's final season the Colts filled that spot with Edgerin James who promptly rushed for 1500+ yards and had nearly 600 recieving his rookie season.

ObsiWan
12-30-2009, 06:09 PM
This is all true and it's one of the reasons why I've always considered Brady the better QB between him and Manning. However though, this was the first real season where Harrison wasn't even on the team and Gonzales was looking really good with Manning early on and he looked like he was going to fill the void. Then he went down and Manning has been sensational all year with Collie and Garcon, so he's pretty much proven now that he can be just as good without all elite WR's. Wayne is still there, but Manning has been tremendous with all of his weapons this season.

I think the loss of O.D. points to who's left as much as O.D.'s contributions. With O.D. gone, you only have to worry about A.J. (who would have been your 1st priority anyhow), K.W., J.J. (who, admittedly, has been a pleasant surprise), and a bunch of who-dat RBs.

With Harrison gone, you still have to worry about Wayne (1st priority anyway), Clark, Addai, and Collie/Garcon (who, like J.J. have turned out to be "pleasant surprises")

We need more depth.

Brisco_County
12-30-2009, 06:12 PM
Schaub's not elite yet, but he will be next year if he leads his team to a winning season and a playoff berth.

John Clayton isn't exactly wrong, he's just ahead of the curve on what's inevitable.

But you can't call a QB elite when he's never had a winning season.

Texecutioner
12-30-2009, 06:12 PM
You seem to discount both Wayne and the years Manning had with Wayne and Harrison both. Manning is fantastic but he has had great tools. The Texans have never had a Wayne caliber player as their #2 WR. But Schaub has good tools at the same time.

What the heck are you talking about? I never discounted any of the great talent Manning ever had. Go back and reread my posts. I've always made that argument against Manning in many discussions. Manning has always had exceptional talent and better than anyone as far as his WR's other than last season and this season and he's proven that he doesn't have to have elite WR's to still be great.

Texecutioner
12-30-2009, 06:26 PM
I think the loss of O.D. points to who's left as much as O.D.'s contributions. With O.D. gone, you only have to worry about A.J. (who would have been your 1st priority anyhow), K.W., J.J. (who, admittedly, has been a pleasant surprise), and a bunch of who-dat RBs.

Dude, you guys need to stop acting like OD was some other form of Andre Johnson. He was on the way to having his best statistical season and he was a beast and all, but he's still a TE and losing a TE in the passing game does not all of a sudden make an entire offense go to waste.

People seem to forget that Walter had 900 yards last season. He hasn't done anything close to that this season and a large part of that is because a lot of his balls went to OD instead of Walter. They just developed more plays to go to OD this year and threw to him a lot more often than they did Walter this year. It's not like Walter isn't good enough to catch passes up the middle, line up in different spots on the field and he's an excellent blocker as well. Kubiak and Shanny decided to force a lot more balls to OD this year, and that's fine. It seemed to work out real well, but make no mistake about the fact that OD benefited from having AJ and Walter as the WR's which made it a lot easier for OD to get open.

With Harrison gone, you still have to worry about Wayne (1st priority anyway), Clark, Addai, and Collie/Garcon (who, like J.J. have turned out to be "pleasant surprises")

We need more depth.

That's no different than what the Texans have. Collie and Garcon were nobodies before they got to start playing with Manning. Had they been on other teams, most likely they wouldn't have even played and might not have hardly gotten a chance to do anything. Clark and OD were pretty much a push and Wayne and Johnson are as well with Johnson being slightly better.

The Texans have better over all weapons to me, but barely. I think Manning makes guys look a lot better other than a guy like Wayne. I don't think Clark would be as good on another team.

nytexan
12-30-2009, 06:32 PM
This is pure homerism to call him a top 5 when he's had one great statistical season.

Schaub is not considered in the top 5 of all QB's from any fans around the country.

In no particular order Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, and Big Ben have all proven more than Schaub has in their careers and have had better seasons in their careers as well. Unless you're going to call top 10 QB's elite then fine. I'd call the top 5 guys the elitists though. 3 of these QB's have won SB's, one has been to two AFC championships, and the other has been a flat out stud in his first two seasons as a starter and both of those seasons were better than Schaub's and that is Rodgers.


Although I agree with you for the most part, I'm not sure what Rodgers has done yet. Until Schaub can do it again he's no more than a Kubiak retread named Jake Plummer in my opinion.

m5kwatts
12-30-2009, 06:43 PM
Dude, you guys need to stop acting like OD was some other form of Andre Johnson. He was on the way to having his best statistical season and he was a beast and all, but he's still a TE and losing a TE in the passing game does not all of a sudden make an entire offense go to waste.

People seem to forget that Walter had 900 yards last season. He hasn't done anything close to that this season and a large part of that is because a lot of his balls went to OD instead of Walter. They just developed more plays to go to OD this year and threw to him a lot more often than they did Walter this year. It's not like Walter isn't good enough to catch passes up the middle, line up in different spots on the field and he's an excellent blocker as well. Kubiak and Shanny decided to force a lot more balls to OD this year, and that's fine. It seemed to work out real well, but make no mistake about the fact that OD benefited from having AJ and Walter as the WR's which made it a lot easier for OD to get open.

With Harrison gone, you still have to worry about Wayne (1st priority anyway), Clark, Addai, and Collie/Garcon (who, like J.J. have turned out to be "pleasant surprises")



That's no different than what the Texans have. Collie and Garcon were nobodies before they got to start playing with Manning. Had they been on other teams, most likely they wouldn't have even played and might not have hardly gotten a chance to do anything. Clark and OD were pretty much a push and Wayne and Johnson are as well with Johnson being slightly better.

The Texans have better over all weapons to me, but barely. I think Manning makes guys look a lot better other than a guy like Wayne. I don't think Clark would be as good on another team.

The same could be said about Walter, Andre Davis, David Anderson, and Owen Daniels. Hell Andre Johnson didn't start posting ungodly 1500 yard seasons until Schaub was throwing him balls.

Enough with the chicken and egg crap. QB's make WR's RB's and TE's better and same is true in vice versa.

The only point I was trying to make from what I first said was that Schaub lost his safety valve, OD. Safety valve meaning his most reliable short target. OD was a third down machine. He was a HUGE part of the offense, don't minimize his contributions by writing him off as "just the TE in the offense." OD was actually catching as many balls as Andre a game when he went down and was becoming our best red zone target.

Schaub has dealt with more adversity than Rivers, Manning and Brady THIS season and has still performed at their level. The numbers don't lie.

steelbtexan
12-30-2009, 06:57 PM
Schaub's not elite yet, but he will be next year if he leads his team to a winning season and a playoff berth.

John Clayton isn't exactly wrong, he's just ahead of the curve on what's inevitable.

But you can't call a QB elite when he's never had a winning season.

This

Who are the Colts RB's? the Texans RB's ?

I think who has the better weapons is obvious.

Schaub is a top 5-10 QB right now. IMHO

Silver Oak
12-30-2009, 06:58 PM
where is the "Schaub is injury prone" crowd?

ObsiWan
12-30-2009, 07:08 PM
The same could be said about Walter, Andre Davis, David Anderson, and Owen Daniels. Hell Andre Johnson didn't start posting ungodly 1500 yard seasons until Schaub was throwing him balls.

Enough with the chicken and egg crap. QB's make WR's RB's and TE's better and same is true in vice versa.

The only point I was trying to make from what I first said was that Schaub lost his safety valve, OD. Safety valve meaning his most reliable short target. OD was a third down machine. He was a HUGE part of the offense, don't minimize his contributions by writing him off as "just the TE in the offense." OD was actually catching as many balls as Andre a game when he went down and was becoming our best red zone target.

Schaub has dealt with more adversity than Rivers, Manning and Brady THIS season and has still performed at their level. The numbers don't lie.

and let's not compare the respective O-lines that are supposed to give these guys time to throw...
:stirpot:

m5kwatts
12-30-2009, 07:15 PM
and let's not compare the respective O-lines that are supposed to give these guys time to throw...
:stirpot:

Lol yeah those 3 don't have to deal with tripping over Studdard Myers and White while trying to throw the ball downfield.

Honoring Earl 34
12-30-2009, 07:23 PM
Those damn TD's, 1st downs and QB rating. Schaub sucks.

He would be a top 5 QB in the NFL if he had a running game for sure . He does play action and the defense doesn't have to fear the run and he'll still get over 4500 yards passing .

I'm glad our team passing records are now getting respectable . Of course he's no VY but if Schaub had the Titan OL and CJ ... the Texans would be where the Colts are . Matt wouldn't have to run to make 1st downs . :aggressive:

ObsiWan
12-30-2009, 07:41 PM
Those damn TD's, 1st downs and QB rating. Schaub sucks.

you know, that's right.
that damned Kubiak wasted two picks on the bum
fire the coach!
:stirpot:

False Start
12-30-2009, 08:05 PM
Of course he's no VY

Good one. :heh:

Double Barrel
12-31-2009, 10:28 AM
This is pure homerism to call him a top 5 when he's had one great statistical season.

Schaub is not considered in the top 5 of all QB's from any fans around the country.

In no particular order Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, and Big Ben have all proven more than Schaub has in their careers and have had better seasons in their careers as well. Unless you're going to call top 10 QB's elite then fine. I'd call the top 5 guys the elitists though. 3 of these QB's have won SB's, one has been to two AFC championships, and the other has been a flat out stud in his first two seasons as a starter and both of those seasons were better than Schaub's and that is Rodgers.

I'd put Schaub and Rodgers in that Top 10 - no. 6-10 - but not top five for either QB right now. Brady, Manning, Brees, Favre, and Big Ben are my top five, and Ben just makes it because of two rings. But Schaub is definitely proving himself worthy to be in the Top 10 discussion, IMO. This list would also include Rivers, Palmer, and McNabb, for me at least.

Goatcheese
12-31-2009, 10:41 AM
Manning and Brees are the only guys I can really call "Elite" with a straight face. There are some really good QBs, but you'd have to really dumb down the term to call them elite.

Double Barrel
12-31-2009, 11:09 AM
Manning and Brees are the only guys I can really call "Elite" with a straight face. There are some really good QBs, but you'd have to really dumb down the term to call them elite.

No Brady? :confused: don't be hatin'!

Goatcheese
12-31-2009, 11:26 AM
No Brady? :confused: don't be hatin'!

For his career absolutely. He hasn't been the Golden boy this year though. He's in the 'really good' log jam with Schaub, Beg Ben, Rivers, etc.

No More 8-8's
12-31-2009, 11:30 AM
For his career absolutely. He hasn't been the Golden boy this year though. He's in the 'really good' log jam with Schaub, Beg Ben, Rivers, etc.

Yeah using his formula, "elite" is actually common, and therefore not prestigious. Heck, he has 15 QBs listed as elite, thats roughly half the starting teams QBs. Calling Schaub elite, is just saying that he is in the better half of the league, by his standards.

Pollardized
12-31-2009, 11:56 AM
Yeah using his formula, "elite" is actually common, and therefore not prestigious. Heck, he has 15 QBs listed as elite, thats roughly half the starting teams QBs. Calling Schaub elite, is just saying that he is in the better half of the league, by his standards.

I still think our very 1st quarterback was among the elitest of the elite... :drunk:

Texecutioner
12-31-2009, 12:07 PM
I'd put Schaub and Rodgers in that Top 10 - no. 6-10 - but not top five for either QB right now. Brady, Manning, Brees, Favre, and Big Ben are my top five, and Ben just makes it because of two rings. But Schaub is definitely proving himself worthy to be in the Top 10 discussion, IMO. This list would also include Rivers, Palmer, and McNabb, for me at least.

Rodgers is easily top 5 right now after starting only two seasons and doing what he's done.

He's played with a worse O line than any of these QB's have this season and played remarkably. Most people didn't even think he would last the entire season he was getting hit so much, but was still throwing all over teams and scrambling for big plays.

His first season to start he he threw for 28 TD's and 13 INT's and over 4,000 yards and ran for over 200 yards and 4 TD's. So, he accounted for 32 TD's and only 13 INT's in his first season to play.

THis year he's had 29 TD's and only 7 INT's and thrown for 4,200 yards and ran for over 300 yards and another 4 TD's as well so that's 33 TD's to 7 INT's and still has one game left. They've got a nice winning record right now and like 3 of their losses came in games where Rodgers and that offense put up like 28 points or more. Rodgers has carried this entire offense all season long. THeir defense has been good some games and really bad in others. Rodgers is one of the most mobile QB's in the league on his feet and is great at buying time and extending plays and has a cannon for an arm and is one of the most accurate passers in the league.

He's easily put himself in the top 5 to top 6 after these last two seasons.

Goatcheese
12-31-2009, 12:08 PM
I still think our very 1st quarterback was among the elitest of the elite... :drunk:

In what? Mullet growing? Jared Allen clearly has him beat.

Texecutioner
12-31-2009, 12:15 PM
The same could be said about Walter, Andre Davis, David Anderson, and Owen Daniels. Hell Andre Johnson didn't start posting ungodly 1500 yard seasons until Schaub was throwing him balls.

Enough with the chicken and egg crap. QB's make WR's RB's and TE's better and same is true in vice versa.

Dude, stop acting like AJ is pulling 1,500 yard seasons "because" of Matt Schaub. AJ is a freaking stud. All AJ needs is a competent QB at best to put up huge numbers. HE isn't some dude that needs a great QB to put up big numbers. He had David freaking Carr as his QB before and one of the worst O lines that's ever been put together, so don't even go there. And last season Schaub didn't even play all year. Sage was throwing the ball for plenty of those games where AJ was putting up some numbers. If anything AJ helps Schaub's numbers. Not the other way around.


Schaub has dealt with more adversity than Rivers, Manning and Brady THIS season and has still performed at their level. The numbers don't lie.

Scahub has not performed at Manning's level this year, and you're kidding yourself beyond belief to say that. He's been very good, but he hasn't been as good as Manning has.

infantrycak
12-31-2009, 12:54 PM
Dude, stop acting like AJ is pulling 1,500 yard seasons "because" of Matt Schaub. AJ is a freaking stud. All AJ needs is a competent QB at best to put up huge numbers. HE isn't some dude that needs a great QB to put up big numbers. He had David freaking Carr as his QB before and one of the worst O lines that's ever been put together, so don't even go there. And last season Schaub didn't even play all year. Sage was throwing the ball for plenty of those games where AJ was putting up some numbers. If anything AJ helps Schaub's numbers. Not the other way around.

AJ's 5 biggest games last year came under Schaub. AJ didn't get to 1200 yards under prior QBs. They are feeding each other.

Goatcheese
12-31-2009, 01:20 PM
AJ's 5 biggest games last year came under Schaub. AJ didn't get to 1200 yards under prior QBs. They are feeding each other.

Synergy IMO.

infantrycak
12-31-2009, 01:27 PM
Synergy IMO.

Exactly.

m5kwatts
12-31-2009, 01:40 PM
Dude, stop acting like AJ is pulling 1,500 yard seasons "because" of Matt Schaub. AJ is a freaking stud. All AJ needs is a competent QB at best to put up huge numbers. HE isn't some dude that needs a great QB to put up big numbers. He had David freaking Carr as his QB before and one of the worst O lines that's ever been put together, so don't even go there. And last season Schaub didn't even play all year. Sage was throwing the ball for plenty of those games where AJ was putting up some numbers. If anything AJ helps Schaub's numbers. Not the other way around.

Scahub has not performed at Manning's level this year, and you're kidding yourself beyond belief to say that. He's been very good, but he hasn't been as good as Manning has.

So is it the chicken or the egg?

Because it seems like it is whatever you think it is.

Whatever is most convenient for your argument yes?

datchapin
12-31-2009, 01:41 PM
Lol yeah those 3 don't have to deal with tripping over Studdard Myers and White while trying to throw the ball downfield.

Is that an argument for Schaub?

I'm asking because you've been pro-Schaub most of the thread and this is clearly an argument that would be made against Schaub.

Schaub should be more aware of whats going on in front of him than the linemen should be aware of what's going on behind them. Add to that the fact that he and the center have had multiple bad snaps and that brings up a case against Schaub.

Another thing, Texans chick posted a thread awhile back about our line giving Schaub more time to throw than most other lines. In that thread she pointed out that Schaub was eating sacks at an avg. of 3.5 secs. where most other sacks around the league had a median time of 2.0 secs. So his protection isn't an issue.

The last thing (I can think of right now anyways.) is that even though Schaub has those pretty stats he is far from consistent. He disappears in halves and wasn't even there for the Jets game. He wasn't there in the second half against the Dolphins, 49ers, Rams, Jags, and Indy. He wasn't there the first half against the Cardinals and Jags (All I can remember right now.) To me this is a sign of folding under pressure. He was only sacked once this past weekend the rest of the time Miami came close, but he couldn't complete the passes. When he gets our guys the balls they are fairly open, however were he an elite QB he would get them the ball in tight coverage as well. Something I rarely see. As far as those stats are concerned I'm really not sold on them.

Bottom line, Schaub has put up elite stats in a few categories. This to me does not make him elite. You can't be elite without consistency and the only thing Schaub has been consistent at is being inconsistent.

datchapin
12-31-2009, 01:43 PM
So is it the chicken or the egg?

Because it seems like it is whatever you think it is.

Whatever is most convenient for your argument yes?

It's the egg. Duh, they've been around since before the time of the Dinosaurs.

m5kwatts
12-31-2009, 01:59 PM
Is that an argument for Schaub?

I'm asking because you've been pro-Schaub most of the thread and this is clearly an argument that would be made against Schaub.

Schaub should be more aware of whats going on in front of him than the linemen should be aware of what's going on behind them. Add to that the fact that he and the center have had multiple bad snaps and that brings up a case against Schaub.

Another thing, Texans chick posted a thread awhile back about our line giving Schaub more time to throw than most other lines. In that thread she pointed out that Schaub was eating sacks at an avg. of 3.5 secs. where most other sacks around the league had a median time of 2.0 secs. So his protection isn't an issue.

The last thing (I can think of right now anyways.) is that even though Schaub has those pretty stats he is far from consistent. He disappears in halves and wasn't even there for the Jets game. He wasn't there in the second half against the Dolphins, 49ers, Rams, Jags, and Indy. He wasn't there the first half against the Cardinals and Jags (All I can remember right now.) To me this is a sign of folding under pressure. He was only sacked once this past weekend the rest of the time Miami came close, but he couldn't complete the passes. When he gets our guys the balls they are fairly open, however were he an elite QB he would get them the ball in tight coverage as well. Something I rarely see. As far as those stats are concerned I'm really not sold on them.

Bottom line, Schaub has put up elite stats in a few categories. This to me does not make him elite. You can't be elite without consistency and the only thing Schaub has been consistent at is being inconsistent.

Part of "protection" is being able to run the ball. How does it protect your QB if the defense knows you can't get more than 3 yards running the ball? Running the ball aids your play-action pass. How many times have we seen the Texans run play-action and no one gets open down field and Schaub holds the ball for too long and either has to throw it away or take a sack? A million. Well thats happening because the defense doesn't respect your fake run and plays your play action like a straight up pass and drops into coverage not even flinching at the run. So while it looks great for the o-line on that stat you showed (3.5 seconds or however long) the reality is the defense isn't buying your play-action because your o-line stinks and they know you can't run it. "Eating sacks at x seconds" doesn't measure the coverage a defense gives you nor does it measure the lack of respect for one's running game/play-action pass.

TheCD
12-31-2009, 02:00 PM
The last thing (I can think of right now anyways.) is that even though Schaub has those pretty stats he is far from consistent. He disappears in halves and wasn't even there for the Jets game. He wasn't there in the second half against the Dolphins, 49ers, Rams, Jags, and Indy. He wasn't there the first half against the Cardinals and Jags (All I can remember right now.) To me this is a sign of folding under pressure. He was only sacked once this past weekend the rest of the time Miami came close, but he couldn't complete the passes. When he gets our guys the balls they are fairly open, however were he an elite QB he would get them the ball in tight coverage as well. Something I rarely see. As far as those stats are concerned I'm really not sold on them.


Just curious as to how not being able to hold on to 17+ point leads is folding under pressure. I agree it's not good and inconsistent, but I fail to see how pressure has anything to do with it.

datchapin
12-31-2009, 02:22 PM
Part of "protection" is being able to run the ball. How does it protect your QB if the defense knows you can't get more than 3 yards running the ball? Running the ball aids your play-action pass. How many times have we seen the Texans run play-action and no one gets open down field and Schaub holds the ball for too long and either has to throw it away or take a sack? A million. Well thats happening because the defense doesn't respect your fake run and plays your play action like a straight up pass and drops into coverage not even flinching at the run. So while it looks great for the o-line on that stat you showed (3.5 seconds or however long) the reality is the defense isn't buying your play-action because your o-line stinks and they know you can't run it. "Eating sacks at x seconds" doesn't measure the coverage a defense gives you nor does it measure the lack of respect for one's running game/play-action pass.

Actually running the ball doesn't really have that much to do with the protection. However even if that were the case teams respect our running game because of our performance last yr. They know we are capable and none of them want to be the one we break out on.

Teams know Schaub can't make the throw across his body leaving his only options as the receivers dragging across the field in his direction. So they stop our PA easily by rolling cover to wherever Schaub is going to. So while it's easy to blame our lack of a running game, you gotta accept the fact that Schaubs inability to throw across his body also limits us. In addition I don't think we've even ran a designed PA bootleg run with Schaub back there. That also limits us.

Texecutioner
12-31-2009, 02:26 PM
So is it the chicken or the egg?

Because it seems like it is whatever you think it is.

Whatever is most convenient for your argument yes?

All you've said this entire time was that Schaub's had to deal with the most adversity, which isn't even exactly true. You've discounted what other QB's around the league have dealt with even when I told you about some of their injuries, but yet you discount those and I don't even think you knew about them in the first place. I mean hell, you've tried to say that Schaub has been as brilliant as Manning this season who is having arguably one of the best seasons of his entire career and he's going to be a HOFer. You're arguments have been pro Texans and anti anything else. Is this supposed to be an objective discussion or should we just say that all Texans players are the best no matter what?

Chicken or the egg? You tell me. I think that is a question more suited for you to answer considering your statements thus far.

datchapin
12-31-2009, 02:29 PM
Just curious as to how not being able to hold on to 17+ point leads is folding under pressure. I agree it's not good and inconsistent, but I fail to see how pressure has anything to do with it.

He was under pressure to run the clock and extend the lead, to make plays with his arm or legs and give us an easier victory. Against the Dolphins they would have beat us had it not been for some calls going our way. If they had beat us it would have been on the defense as well, but also on the offense and Schaub for not having been able to score when we needed to. QB's always have pressure on them and when they fail it's often because they let the pressure keep them from doing their job.

Texecutioner
12-31-2009, 02:33 PM
Is that an argument for Schaub?

I'm asking because you've been pro-Schaub most of the thread and this is clearly an argument that would be made against Schaub.

Schaub should be more aware of whats going on in front of him than the linemen should be aware of what's going on behind them. Add to that the fact that he and the center have had multiple bad snaps and that brings up a case against Schaub.

Another thing, Texans chick posted a thread awhile back about our line giving Schaub more time to throw than most other lines. In that thread she pointed out that Schaub was eating sacks at an avg. of 3.5 secs. where most other sacks around the league had a median time of 2.0 secs. So his protection isn't an issue.

The last thing (I can think of right now anyways.) is that even though Schaub has those pretty stats he is far from consistent. He disappears in halves and wasn't even there for the Jets game. He wasn't there in the second half against the Dolphins, 49ers, Rams, Jags, and Indy. He wasn't there the first half against the Cardinals and Jags (All I can remember right now.) To me this is a sign of folding under pressure. He was only sacked once this past weekend the rest of the time Miami came close, but he couldn't complete the passes. When he gets our guys the balls they are fairly open, however were he an elite QB he would get them the ball in tight coverage as well. Something I rarely see. As far as those stats are concerned I'm really not sold on them.

Bottom line, Schaub has put up elite stats in a few categories. This to me does not make him elite. You can't be elite without consistency and the only thing Schaub has been consistent at is being inconsistent.


Excellent points here. His inconsistency is definitely a factor in this as well. However I do think a lot of the inconsistency at times was a result of the coaching and the offensive game plans in some of those poor 2nd halves. That is nothing that can be exactly proven though. I don't think Schaub has near as good of a chance though in some of those halves since Kubes made the offense a lot more predictable and conservative at times.

Over all I think he's had a very good season with all the circumstances considered and I'm happy with his production and his season over all. He showed several times this season that he can take it down the field in crunch time which is one of the most important qualities in any QB in the NFL. He isn't elite yet by any means though. He's close and could possibly get there, but he'll need one more year of sweet numbers and more consistency as well. You don't "need" an elite QB to be a top team in the NFL though. Schaub is more than good enough to take us where we need to go.

Texecutioner
12-31-2009, 02:42 PM
AJ's 5 biggest games last year came under Schaub. AJ didn't get to 1200 yards under prior QBs. They are feeding each other.

AJ could put up huge numbers with almost any QB in the entire league practically. He just needs to be on a team with decent protection where a QB can get him the ball. This is the only forum on the planet that would suggest that AJ's numbers are great "because" of Schaub. AJ's one of the best talents that's ever entered the NFL at the WR position. Guys like that can thrive statistically on almost any team. It's actually amazing that AJ was able to put up over 1,000 yards period in the David Carr/Capers years. He was capable of a lot more at the time.

m5kwatts
12-31-2009, 03:29 PM
All you've said this entire time was that Schaub's had to deal with the most adversity, which isn't even exactly true. You've discounted what other QB's around the league have dealt with even when I told you about some of their injuries, but yet you discount those and I don't even think you knew about them in the first place. I mean hell, you've tried to say that Schaub has been as brilliant as Manning this season who is having arguably one of the best seasons of his entire career and he's going to be a HOFer. You're arguments have been pro Texans and anti anything else. Is this supposed to be an objective discussion or should we just say that all Texans players are the best no matter what?

Chicken or the egg? You tell me. I think that is a question more suited for you to answer considering your statements thus far.

Bold: Tell me then, what adversity has Manning Brady and Rivers dealt with this year and how does it even begin to compare to what Schaub has dealt with? Have they lost their 2 starting guards? Are they operating behind one of the worst centers in the league? Their star TE on IR? Are they last in the NFL in running the ball like the Texans? (oh wait I say nothing bad about the Texans, our running game is the best in the league!)

Underlined: Um Schaub has more yards in less pass attempts than Manning, more yards per pass, more yards a game meanwhile being sacked twice as much. He is doing some things better than Manning this year. Are you arguing with numbers and facts?

I am very pro-Schaub yes and a lot of my passion is out of disgust for people who take for granted what he's doing. I know you've agreed he's in the top 6-10 range of QBs in the league, I'm not saying you're being ridiculous. I just think its time to start appreciating what we have here and quit nit-picking at this guy's game. Its absurd, yeah Manning is great and is a better QB when comparing body's of work but the reality is Schaub is right there with him statistically this year.

m5kwatts
12-31-2009, 03:42 PM
Actually running the ball doesn't really have that much to do with the protection. However even if that were the case teams respect our running game because of our performance last yr. They know we are capable and none of them want to be the one we break out on.

Teams know Schaub can't make the throw across his body leaving his only options as the receivers dragging across the field in his direction. So they stop our PA easily by rolling cover to wherever Schaub is going to. So while it's easy to blame our lack of a running game, you gotta accept the fact that Schaubs inability to throw across his body also limits us. In addition I don't think we've even ran a designed PA bootleg run with Schaub back there. That also limits us.

This is ridiculous, we're not the same offense as last year, teams don't give a crap about what we did last year why would they? We don't even have the same personnel as last year, we have 2 backups starting at guard for us, it isn't the same running game. Slaton wasn't the same back this year and we're now employing backups to run the ball.

Running the ball has EVERYTHING to do with protection. How else do you think Flacco and Matt Ryan had good years as rookies and made the playoffs last year? Because their running game's were tops in the league. A great running game can hide poor quarterbacking. A great running game can make an average QB better. And in the same vein, a poor running game can make your passing game worse.

And Schaub does throw across his body. Remember Owen Daniels' 60 yard TD in the SF game? It was play-action and Schaub threw across his body and hit Daniels down field. I think what you're getting at is his mobility, rollouts are tough when your QB is stiff and can't move. I'll give you that, his mobility is lacking.

This is partly my disgust for anti-Schaubers out there. Why is it that we've been presented this beautiful piece of artwork yet all we can do is point out the warts? And why don't people try this hard to find flaws in guys like Cushing? I'll never understand why people choose to point out Schaub's flaws rather than appreciate his excellence.

TheCD
12-31-2009, 03:53 PM
Underlined: Um Schaub has more yards in less pass attempts than Manning, more yards per pass, more yards a game meanwhile being sacked twice as much. He is doing some things better than Manning this year. Are you arguing with numbers and facts?

I do agree with you about Matt being the guy for us. But these passing stats you've presented can be misleading. Peyton lacks a ground game like us (albeit not as bad), and his lowered stats in the categories you mentioned very likely could be a result of having to play "ball control" with a short passing game.

krocket
01-01-2010, 08:39 AM
I will admit that Schaub is an Elite passer. But, I am waiting for him to will a win in a very important game before I will call him an Elite QB. He has a sparkling opportunity this Sunday.

barrett
01-01-2010, 12:53 PM
I for some reason pay attention to the little things, sock color changes etc. The "intangibles" that are sometimes hard to argue but are important to me. If you watch the NFL network Texans v. Patriots video you will see a guy who has become a leader. Not just the guy calling people the day after he got signed, but a full bore leader. After Foster scores his first NFL touchdown the entire team is congratulating him but watch #8 grab him and really let him know that HE is proud of Foster. And I've been gushing over his pocket presence since week 4. It gets better every single week. His accuracy is absolutely top 4 along with Breese, Manning & Brady.

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv/index.asp?mm_file_id=3885&play_clip=y

datchapin
01-01-2010, 01:36 PM
This is ridiculous, we're not the same offense as last year, teams don't give a crap about what we did last year why would they? We don't even have the same personnel as last year, we have 2 backups starting at guard for us, it isn't the same running game. Slaton wasn't the same back this year and we're now employing backups to run the ball.

Running the ball has EVERYTHING to do with protection. How else do you think Flacco and Matt Ryan had good years as rookies and made the playoffs last year? Because their running game's were tops in the league. A great running game can hide poor quarterbacking. A great running game can make an average QB better. And in the same vein, a poor running game can make your passing game worse.

And Schaub does throw across his body. Remember Owen Daniels' 60 yard TD in the SF game? It was play-action and Schaub threw across his body and hit Daniels down field. I think what you're getting at is his mobility, rollouts are tough when your QB is stiff and can't move. I'll give you that, his mobility is lacking.

This is partly my disgust for anti-Schaubers out there. Why is it that we've been presented this beautiful piece of artwork yet all we can do is point out the warts? And why don't people try this hard to find flaws in guys like Cushing? I'll never understand why people choose to point out Schaub's flaws rather than appreciate his excellence.

Yet we were able to run the ball well against Miami. What about the guards, that's not exactly the hardest position to replace.

If a bad running game can make your passing game worst than howcome we and the Colts have some of the best passing stats?

My bad, Matt Schaub can't throw across his body when he's rolling out. Yeah I remember that play, but Schaub stopped set up loaded the ball before he launched it.

I don't really have to try, I just call it like I see it. Considering my attention if fully focused on them every Sunday it's hard to miss those warts. Anyhoo, I think this is a good thing to discuss as Matt is due for an extension. Hmm, I never really considered myself a Schaub hater, not sure if that comment was directed at me.

Happy New Years!

Farough
01-01-2010, 02:54 PM
While I think Schaub is close to being an elite QB, I really dont agree with Clayton that there are elite QBs on half the teams. An elite isn't upperhalf... its the TOP. I would say you have to be top 5 in the league to be elite.

barrett
01-01-2010, 06:52 PM
Statistically he is top 5 in most of the major categories.

silvrhand
01-01-2010, 09:07 PM
Statistically he is top 5 in most of the major categories.

For 1 year, you don't get elite status after one year, but that's just me.

infantrycak
01-01-2010, 10:31 PM
For 1 year, you don't get elite status after one year, but that's just me.

What if the phrasing was changed to playing at an elite level?

Goldensilence
01-01-2010, 10:52 PM
For 1 year, you don't get elite status after one year, but that's just me.

Pretty much sums up how I feel. I find it hard to call him elite when he's finally been healthy for one year and hasn't had to battle a career backup for control of the team.

Do I think he's bad? Nope not by any means whatsoever. He's played very impressive this year. By the same token we could've said Derek Anderson was elite a year or two ago after his "big" year.

What if the phrasing was changed to playing at an elite level?

Well sure. Again a year ro two ago we could've said Braylon Edwards was playing at an elite level but, would we really means he's an elite receiver?

IMO I'd still compare Matt to Hasselbeck in Seattle, no he's not elite himself necessarily but's he's good enough to get a team into the superbowl.

infantrycak
01-01-2010, 11:03 PM
Well sure. Again a year ro two ago we could've said Braylon Edwards was playing at an elite level but, would we really means he's an elite receiver?

Sure, but the first step to having consistency is the 1st great year. You don't get to put 3 or 4 in the record books at once.

IMO I'd still compare Matt to Hasselbeck in Seattle, no he's not elite himself necessarily but's he's good enough to get a team into the superbowl.

I'd say that comparison is a little harsh. Hasselbeck in 11 seasons has two with QB ratings over 90. Schaub has done that the past two years of his three years as a starter. He's never approached Schaub's completion % and that is very telling since he is much more a short passer as reflected by their ypa. I'm not crowning him elite yet but he had a darn good year and when your season rightfully is compared to future hall of famers Manning, Brady and Favre and franchise guys like Big Ben and Rivers you are on the right track.

beerlover
01-01-2010, 11:07 PM
two 2nd rd. picks seem cheap now :clap:

Goldensilence
01-01-2010, 11:15 PM
Sure, but the first step to having consistency is the 1st great year. You don't get to put 3 or 4 in the record books at once.

Point still stands though. I think Schaub will follow up but, what if he doesn't? He's another Derek Anderson.

I'd say that comparison is a little harsh. Hasselbeck in 11 seasons has two with QB ratings over 90. Schaub has done that the past two years of his three years as a starter. He's never approached Schaub's completion % and that is very telling since he is much more a short passer as reflected by their ypa. I'm not crowning him elite yet but he had a darn good year and when your season rightfully is compared to future hall of famers Manning, Brady and Favre and franchise guys like Big Ben and Rivers you are on the right track.



I think he's like Hasselbeck in that he is not like a Manning, Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, Favre and Brees in that he doesn't have the ability to carry a team when they need him to. To me that defines an elite QB.

Jon Kitna a few years back had back to back 4,000 plus yards but he wasn't putting the team on his shoulders and putting them in the playoffs. Sure he's a darn good QB but Elite......not yet. I hope next year he proves that.

infantrycak
01-01-2010, 11:27 PM
I think he's like Hasselbeck in that he is not like a Manning, Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, Favre and Brees in that he doesn't have the ability to carry a team when they need him to. To me that defines an elite QB.

Jon Kitna a few years back had back to back 4,000 plus yards but he wasn't putting the team on his shoulders and putting them in the playoffs. Sure he's a darn good QB but Elite......not yet. I hope next year he proves that.

I haven't gone back to pull numbers but it seems to me when they have needed a last minute drive to win or tie the game he has gotten them in position to do so the great majority of the time. Seems like he and Big Ben are having similar seasons lifting their teams this year.

Again, I think the Kitna comparison is unfair. Kitna was playing from behind a lot and it isn't just about yardage. Kitna barely topped an 80 QB rating as he threw more INT's than TD's both those seasons and for a much lower ypa. Schaub is just under a QB rating of 100 and 1 TD away from a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio. Across the board Schaub is positioned next/in front of all the guys you just mentioned. Kitna only put up yards.

Goldensilence
01-01-2010, 11:56 PM
I haven't gone back to pull numbers but it seems to me when they have needed a last minute drive to win or tie the game he has gotten them in position to do so the great majority of the time. Seems like he and Big Ben are having similar seasons lifting their teams this year.

Again, I think the Kitna comparison is unfair. Kitna was playing from behind a lot and it isn't just about yardage. Kitna barely topped an 80 QB rating as he threw more INT's than TD's both those seasons and for a much lower ypa. Schaub is just under a QB rating of 100 and 1 TD away from a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio. Across the board Schaub is positioned next/in front of all the guys you just mentioned. Kitna only put up yards.

So is it on one of the Browns?

When we're looking at W-L records, Schaub is putting up, just yards.

I'm not dissing MAtt or his accomplishments at all this year, but he's not elite quite just yet IMO. Fair or not a QB is judged by his team's W-L record and what he does in getting to the post season and what he does when he's there.

infantrycak
01-02-2010, 12:05 AM
So is it on one of the Browns?

Sometimes. No QB plays all eleven positions, it is a team sport. Schaub has repeatedly done his assignment late in games.

When we're looking at W-L records, Schaub is putting up, just yards.

Well if you're looking at just W-L records then he isn't even putting up yards. This disregard the stats attitude seems silly to me. If your defense and running game are carrying you and the stats reflect the QB is holding you back you swap QBs. If your team is relying on the passing game with no running game and excellent QB stats you look elsewhere for change. None of the guys you keep mentioning like Anderson or Kitna have ever performed at the level Schaub did this year.

Goldensilence
01-02-2010, 12:10 AM
Sometimes. No QB plays all eleven positions, it is a team sport. Schaub has repeatedly done his assignment late in games.



Well if you're looking at just W-L records then he isn't even putting up yards. This disregard the stats attitude seems silly to me. If your defense and running game are carrying you and the stats reflect the QB is holding you back you swap QBs. If your team is relying on the passing game with no running game and excellent QB stats you look elsewhere for change. None of the guys you keep mentioning like Anderson or Kitna have ever performed at the level Schaub did this year.

Ultimately Cak I guess it comes down to a definition of what an elite QB is. Again I'm not dissing Matt Schaub, his stats or what he has done this year. I just don't think he has yet earned the moniker elite in terms of where he stands as a QB.

I guess elite to me in the end is looking at QBs when the cards are falling who is the guy you want?

To me I got Manning, Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers. No offense to Matt. Do I put him in the top tier after his performance this year finally? Definitely. Elite? Still not there yet.

infantrycak
01-02-2010, 12:18 AM
Ultimately Cak I guess it comes down to a definition of what an elite QB is. Again I'm not dissing Matt Schaub, his stats or what he has done this year. I just don't think he has yet earned the moniker elite in terms of where he stands as a QB.

I guess elite to me in the end is looking at QBs when the cards are falling who is the guy you want?

To me I got Manning, Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers. No offense to Matt. Do I put him in the top tier after his performance this year finally? Definitely. Elite? Still not there yet.

I agree with that. That's why I rephrased the assertion. I don't think he should be judged elite yet but I do think he has performed at an elite level this year. Time well tell if he continues that. Remember Brees didn't start being elite until his 5th year as a starter and it wasn't as good as the one Schaub is having this year.

thunderkyss
01-02-2010, 12:39 AM
Ultimately Cak I guess it comes down to a definition of what an elite QB is. Again I'm not dissing Matt Schaub, his stats or what he has done this year. I just don't think he has yet earned the moniker elite in terms of where he stands as a QB.

I guess elite to me in the end is looking at QBs when the cards are falling who is the guy you want?

To me I got Manning, Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers. No offense to Matt. Do I put him in the top tier after his performance this year finally? Definitely. Elite? Still not there yet.

Both Manning & Brady looked like **** when the New York Giants were dominating on the Defensive Line a couple of years back. They were still elite, even though they couldn't get it done in those games.

To me, Matt isn't elite...... he has to perform at that level for at least another year, & this has got to be a winning team.

If Kitna isn't elite, he is pretty damn close, like Archie Manning or Dan Foust.

wagonhed
01-02-2010, 06:27 AM
To all of you talking about how QBs can only be elite PLAYERS OF THEIR POSITION if they win in the playoffs, I present to you:

Barry Sanders


Matt Schaub could be an elite QB and never win a game in his entire career if the defense was bad enough. Judging an elite QB by how many championships they have is ridiculous. And that's why saying that Ben Rofulussburger is a top 5 QB is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all week.

Grams
01-02-2010, 09:19 AM
To me an "Elite" QB is one who with the game on the line, can drive his team down the field and put them in position to score the winning/tying field goal or to score the winning/tying TD on a regular basis.

When Montana got the ball with 2 min or less in a game and they were behind, you just KNEW that he would drive them down the field and score. Manning, Brady, Rivers, Brees and Big Ben can do that on a regular basis. Maybe not every single time but most times.

Can Matt do that? He has several times this year. But something always seems to happen when we get in position to score the winning/tying points. Untill we actually score those winning/tying points, Matt will be a very good/excellent QB, but not "elite".

While I do not think that Matt is the reason he is not elite yet, we need to get more consistant play from those around him - RB, FG kicker, etc. Matt does get us in position, but someone always lets him/us down in the end.

Silver Oak
01-02-2010, 11:18 AM
elite or good, I'm not sure, but I am very happy that the "injury prone" crap has ceased...at least for the season.

Ndevine7
01-02-2010, 11:25 AM
yea i wouldnt go as far as elite quite yet because as a team we havent done anything. Once we make the playoffs and are consistently a good team i think he is an excellent quarterback but not elite

Goldensilence
01-02-2010, 12:44 PM
To all of you talking about how QBs can only be elite PLAYERS OF THEIR POSITION if they win in the playoffs, I present to you:

Barry Sanders


Matt Schaub could be an elite QB and never win a game in his entire career if the defense was bad enough. Judging an elite QB by how many championships they have is ridiculous. And that's why saying that Ben Rofulussburger is a top 5 QB is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all week.

IMO the thing about Barry that made him elite was he carried his team. As evidenced in the Lions post Barry, he carried that team and that aside from his moves on the field made him elite.

If you ask me if anyone on the team is elite it's AJ. He carries the passing attack for the team and makes the offense better.

HollywoodLeo
01-02-2010, 04:40 PM
And Rivers? Are you kidding? His first year as a starting QB LT broke every runningback record there is. He's had the best TE at his disposal every year. He's got big quality receivers to throw to and before this year their o-line was always a top 5 unit.
That running back hasn't exactly been himself in the past three years and Rivers has taken over the offense since.

You can't tell me for a second Rivers and Manning haven't been spoiled with talent around them and have been fortunate enough to not lose major targets in the middle of the season.

Right. And Schaub has that Andre Johnson guy to throw the ball to.

Every elite QB in the history of the game has weapons. It takes two people to make a complete pass.

Also, those 3 QB's are playing behind way better offensive lines than Schaub does. And while it may be only slightly, those 3 have better running games too.

San Diego's running game is ranked #29. I guess it's slightly better than Houston (31) but that's nitpicking as Rivers is obviously overcoming a lack of a running game just as much as Schaub is.

Anyways, I'm not in here to say Rivers is better than Schaub or the other way around, it just seems silly to me to try and insinuate Rivers isn't as good as he looks because he has a good TE and because LT was breaking records 3 years ago.

HollywoodLeo
01-02-2010, 04:55 PM
Bold: Tell me then, what adversity has Manning Brady and Rivers dealt with this year and how does it even begin to compare to what Schaub has dealt with? Have they lost their 2 starting guards? Are they operating behind one of the worst centers in the league? Their star TE on IR? Are they last in the NFL in running the ball like the Texans?

The Chargers lost so many OLmen in game 1 of the season that they almost had to put a TE on the line.

Nick Hardwick (starting center) just now came back from the injury he received in that game.

Jeromy Clary (starting RE) was put in the IR two weeks later

Louis Vazquez (starting RG....and a rookie, at that) missed some games to injury

Scott Mrzucowski (2nd string center starting in place of Hardwick) even went down, leading to Rivers having a 3rd stringer hiking him the ball.

Meanwhile, the Chargers defensive front is a patchwork project thanks to Jamal Williams going on the IR in week 1.

Oh, and the Chargers run game isn't exactly stellar either.

So, to answer your question, yes Rivers has had to deal with injuries to his team as well.

b0ng
01-02-2010, 04:57 PM
What teams would want Schaub as their QB1?

Colts - No
Jax - Absolutely
Ten - Absolutely
Miami - Absolutely
Buffalo - Absolutely
NE - No
NYJ - Toss - up. They could believe enough in Sanchez for some reason
CIN - Maybe? Palmer is good but Schaub has outplayed him this year
CLE - Absolutely
Pitt - No
Bal - Probably not. Joe Flacco is not as good as Matt Schaub though.
KC - Absolutely
DEN - Absolutely
OAK - Absolutely
SD - No
NO - No
TB - Absolutely
CAR - Absolutely
ATL - Probably not, but Matt Schaub has played better this year
DAL - Probably not, but I'd rather have Schaub than Romo
NYG - Probably not, but I'd rather have Schaub over Eli
PHI - No
WSH - Absolutely
GB - No
MIN - I say yes here only because Favre is already 40 and I doubt he plays more than 1 or 2 more seasons
DET - I would rather have Schaub but it's the Lions and they drafted Stafford. Toss-up
CHI - Absolutely.
STL - Absolutely
SF - Absolutely
ARI - Absolutely
SEA - Absolutely

That's 16 teams that I'm sure would take Matt Schaub over their current QB1, and 8 more where it would go either way, and 8 teams that would for sure take their QB1 over Schaub.

No, he's not elite yet, but you can definitely make a case for him being a very desirable QB.

ObsiWan
01-02-2010, 05:29 PM
What teams would want Schaub as their QB1?

Colts - No
Jax - Absolutely
Ten - Absolutely
Miami - Absolutely
Buffalo - Absolutely
NE - No
NYJ - Toss - up. They could believe enough in Sanchez for some reason
CIN - Maybe? Palmer is good but Schaub has outplayed him this year
CLE - Absolutely
Pitt - No
Bal - Probably not. Joe Flacco is not as good as Matt Schaub though.
KC - Absolutely
DEN - Absolutely
OAK - Absolutely
SD - No
NO - No
TB - Absolutely
CAR - Absolutely
ATL - Probably not, but Matt Schaub has played better this year
DAL - Probably not, but I'd rather have Schaub than Romo
NYG - Probably not, but I'd rather have Schaub over Eli
PHI - No
WSH - Absolutely
GB - No
MIN - I say yes here only because Favre is already 40 and I doubt he plays more than 1 or 2 more seasons
DET - I would rather have Schaub but it's the Lions and they drafted Stafford. Toss-up
CHI - Absolutely.
STL - Absolutely
SF - Absolutely
ARI - Absolutely
SEA - Absolutely

That's 16 teams that I'm sure would take Matt Schaub over their current QB1, and 8 more where it would go either way, and 8 teams that would for sure take their QB1 over Schaub.

No, he's not elite yet, but you can definitely make a case for him being a very desirable QB.

Good post. I'm gonna have to move a couple of your 'probably nots' over to the definite 'No' side of the ledger.

Cincy - No. They've built their offense around Palmer and while, at least I think, they're two of a kind Palmer and Schaub (really good with a 'fragile' label), I doubt they'd do a one fer one swap. And I think Palmer's numbers are down because they had success running the ball and didn't have to rely on the pass as much this year.
Dallas - Last year this might have been a 'yes' but Romo's come thru for them this Dec and he's their media darling. And we all know how much Jerrah likes attention.
NYG - Eli got them a SB championship. I understand that gets one a "We Excuse/Forgive Your Suckatude" card for at least a year or two.

Goldensilence
01-02-2010, 08:29 PM
What teams would want Schaub as their QB1?

Colts - No
Jax - Absolutely
Ten - Absolutely
Miami - Absolutely
Buffalo - Absolutely
NE - No
NYJ - Toss - up. They could believe enough in Sanchez for some reason
CIN - Maybe? Palmer is good but Schaub has outplayed him this year
CLE - Absolutely
Pitt - No
Bal - Probably not. Joe Flacco is not as good as Matt Schaub though.
KC - Absolutely
DEN - Absolutely
OAK - Absolutely
SD - No
NO - No
TB - Absolutely
CAR - Absolutely
ATL - Probably not, but Matt Schaub has played better this year
DAL - Probably not, but I'd rather have Schaub than Romo
NYG - Probably not, but I'd rather have Schaub over Eli
PHI - No
WSH - Absolutely
GB - No
MIN - I say yes here only because Favre is already 40 and I doubt he plays more than 1 or 2 more seasons
DET - I would rather have Schaub but it's the Lions and they drafted Stafford. Toss-up
CHI - Absolutely.
STL - Absolutely
SF - Absolutely
ARI - Absolutely
SEA - Absolutely

That's 16 teams that I'm sure would take Matt Schaub over their current QB1, and 8 more where it would go either way, and 8 teams that would for sure take their QB1 over Schaub.

No, he's not elite yet, but you can definitely make a case for him being a very desirable QB.

Good post. I think it sums up what his desirability around the league could be.

However, what would make me nervous about the state of some of those teams is bad OLs and his lack of mobility is a recipe for disaster.

b0ng
01-02-2010, 09:56 PM
Good post. I think it sums up what his desirability around the league could be.

However, what would make me nervous about the state of some of those teams is bad OLs and his lack of mobility is a recipe for disaster.

Of course. I'd say one of the Hallmarks of a bad team is terrible line play, and Matt Schaub behind a terrible line would probably equal out to a 10 game a season QB.

But yeah I could see all of those bad teams jumping at the idea of offering an unrestricted free-agent Schaub a good contract. To be truthful he's above average in a season where there is a lot of good QB play. I don't believe he is being propped up by AJ (because as good as AJ is he does require somebody who can get the ball out of there), and I don't think that his numbers are smoke and mirrors. He's put up great numbers in injury shortened seasons so him being healthy has put him where he should've been 2 seasons and the previous season ago.

That being said I wouldn't trade him except for one of the big 3 or 4 (Brees, Brady, Manning and maybe Rivers) because he fits what we need here in Houston. He's accurate, he can throw it farther than 8 yards down field, and he can sell the playaction (A skill everybody just throws by the wayside).

It took AJ awhile before everybody declared him elite, Schaub should take at least that long unless the Texans make regular playoff appearances.

edo783
01-02-2010, 11:43 PM
It took AJ awhile before everybody declared him elite, Schaub should take at least that long unless the Texans make regular playoff appearances.

This is very true. The first 2-3 years, AJ was less than reliable as a pass catcher, but he worked very hard at it using the Juggs machine firing hard fast ones at him at about 10 yards, and he got a lot better. Matt seems to be on the same sort of track, 2-4 years to learn the NFL level stuff and then off to the races. Only issue with Matt that still concerns be, is that he isn't as durable as I would like. Looks like he will play all 16 this year (finishing with a separated shoulder), but needs to do it for another year or two to lose the "Injury prone" thing. Certainly showed he is tough this year though. A separated shoulder hurts like all get out, especially when you land on it with a 300 lb. guy on top of you.

m5kwatts
01-13-2010, 01:04 AM
Missing from Clayton's case is the fact that Schaub lost his safety valve in OD halfway through the year... I'd be interested to see how certain elite QBs would perform without Dallas Clark, Wes Welker, Antonio Gates etc

We found out about this one on Sunday. I don't mean to dig up old stuff and throw it in people's faces, but that said Brady was completely flummoxed without Welker. Its not easy losing your safety valve. Schaub went half the season without his and overcame it. THIS is why he should be a pro bowler.

ObsiWan
01-13-2010, 05:19 AM
We found out about this one on Sunday. I don't mean to dig up old stuff and throw it in people's faces, but that said Brady was completely flummoxed without Welker. Its not easy losing your safety valve. Schaub went half the season without his and overcame it. THIS is why he should be a pro bowler.

Yeah, the shine sure seems to have come off of Brady's rep during his last two playoff appearances. In this "What Have You Done for Me Lately" NFL, Brady may be losing his "Elite" status.

ATXtexanfan
01-13-2010, 06:48 AM
Guys aren't the same after major injuries. Palmer has never been the same. Brady didn't look right all year. He had numbers due to elite weapons around him. Welker might miss all of next year as well. Curious to see if the dynasty is coming undone next year.

bigbrewster2000
01-13-2010, 07:21 AM
I wouldnt be so quick to jump on that bandwagon. Brady is and will remain an elite QB. They won less games because their Defense is not even close to as good as it was 3 or 4 years ago. Its getting back to that point but its still a season away at least. Sorry this talk about Brady is silly.

HoustonFrog
01-13-2010, 08:26 AM
I wouldnt be so quick to jump on that bandwagon. Brady is and will remain an elite QB. They won less games because their Defense is not even close to as good as it was 3 or 4 years ago. Its getting back to that point but its still a season away at least. Sorry this talk about Brady is silly.

Agree that downgrading Brady is a little silly but this article really brings some playoff Brady talk to light. Doesn't lessen him but adds to Warner and others that people have found to be less than him.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68732

El Tejano
01-13-2010, 10:31 AM
I'm not going to argue with Phillip Rivers because he can beat Indy in Indy even during a playoff game on a busted foot.

RagingBull
01-13-2010, 11:10 AM
I think Schaub is like a 2006 version of Drew Brees. Before that, no one ever talked about him as being elite. Brees numbers from 2005 and 2006 closely match Schaubs numbers from 2008 and 2009. I think just as Brees has, Schaub will continue to improve and we will see him listed with the Elite QB's in 2-3 years. Right now he is still "pre-elite"