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TEXANRED
12-10-2009, 12:16 PM
It's not good......at all.

2007
Further information: 2007 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/10 (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye Defensive tackle Louisville (Bust)
3/73 Jacoby Jones Wide receiver Lane (Not long for this team)
4/123 (from New Orleans) Fred Bennett Cornerback South Carolina (Not long for this team)
5/144 Brandon Harrison Safety Stanford (He got cut didn't he?)
5/163 (from New Orleans) Brandon Frye Offensive tackle Virginia Tech (Gone)
6/183 Kasey Studdard Offensive guard Texas (Depth at best)
7/218 Zac Diles Linebacker Kansas State (Not the best OLB but he will do for now)

2008
Further information: 2008 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/26 (from Baltimore) Duane Brown Offensive tackle Virginia Tech (Decent pick, I like him)
3/79 Antwaun Molden Cornerback Eastern Kentucky (Always hurt, bust)
3/89 (from Baltimore) Steve Slaton Running back West Virginia (we will see after this year)
4/118 Xavier Adibi Linebacker Virginia Tech (Depth)
5/151 Frank Okam Defensive tackle Texas (You can't be active with this group of scrubs? Not long for this team)
6/173 (from Baltimore) Dominique Barber Safety Minnesota (Depth)
7/223 Alex Brink Quarterback Washington State (gone)

2009
Further information: 2009 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/15 Brian Cushing Linebacker Southern California (Stud)
2/46 Connor Barwin Defensive end Cincinnati (situational, depth)
3/77 Antoine Caldwell Center Alabama (Depth)
4/112 Glover Quin Cornerback New Mexico (Hey look a starter)
4/122 (from Minnesota) Anthony Hill Tight end North Carolina State (mostly inactive or hurt)
5/152 James Casey Tight end Rice (Depth)
6/188 Brice McCain Cornerback Utah (Depth)
7/223 Troy Nolan Safety Arizona State (who?)

I know I know, a lot of guys say that it takes 3-4 years to judge a draft but the 07 draft looks a lot like the 05 draft.


2005
Further information: 2005 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/16 (from New Orleans) Travis Johnson Defensive tackle Florida State
3/73 (from Dallas) Vernand Morency Running back Oklahoma State
4/114 Jerome Mathis Wide receiver Hampton
5/151 Drew Hodgdon Center Arizona State
6/188 C.C. Brown Safety Louisiana-Lafayette
7/277 Kenneth Pettway Linebacker Grambling

My problem with the way that we draft is that out of 22 draft picks we are only able to get 6 starters on a team that has never been any good and has holes all over the place. This is a team that sells me every year that we are a team that builds through the draft and develops its players but no one gets developed. There is a good possibility that 6 out of 14 players from the 07 / 08 drafts are not even on this team heading into next year.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 12:20 PM
It's not good......at all.

2007
Further information: 2007 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/10 (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye Defensive tackle Louisville (Bust)
3/73 Jacoby Jones Wide receiver Lane (Not long for this team)
4/123 (from New Orleans) Fred Bennett Cornerback South Carolina (Not long for this team)
5/144 Brandon Harrison Safety Stanford (He got cut didn't he?)
5/163 (from New Orleans) Brandon Frye Offensive tackle Virginia Tech (Gone)
6/183 Kasey Studdard Offensive guard Texas (Depth at best)
7/218 Zac Diles Linebacker Kansas State (Not the best OLB but he will do for now)

2008
Further information: 2008 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/26 (from Baltimore) Duane Brown Offensive tackle Virginia Tech (Decent pick, I like him)
3/79 Antwaun Molden Cornerback Eastern Kentucky (Always hurt, bust)
3/89 (from Baltimore) Steve Slaton Running back West Virginia (we will see after this year)
4/118 Xavier Adibi Linebacker Virginia Tech (Depth)
5/151 Frank Okam Defensive tackle Texas (You can't be active with this group of scrubs? Not long for this team)
6/173 (from Baltimore) Dominique Barber Safety Minnesota (Depth)
7/223 Alex Brink Quarterback Washington State (gone)

2009
Further information: 2009 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/15 Brian Cushing Linebacker Southern California (Stud)
2/46 Connor Barwin Defensive end Cincinnati (situational, depth)
3/77 Antoine Caldwell Center Alabama (Depth)
4/112 Glover Quin Cornerback New Mexico (Hey look a starter)
4/122 (from Minnesota) Anthony Hill Tight end North Carolina State (mostly inactive or hurt)
5/152 James Casey Tight end Rice (Depth)
6/188 Brice McCain Cornerback Utah (Depth)
7/223 Troy Nolan Safety Arizona State (who?)

I know I know, a lot of guys say that it takes 3-4 years to judge a draft but the 07 draft looks a lot like the 05 draft.


2005
Further information: 2005 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/16 (from New Orleans) Travis Johnson Defensive tackle Florida State
3/73 (from Dallas) Vernand Morency Running back Oklahoma State
4/114 Jerome Mathis Wide receiver Hampton
5/151 Drew Hodgdon Center Arizona State
6/188 C.C. Brown Safety Louisiana-Lafayette
7/277 Kenneth Pettway Linebacker Grambling

My problem with the way that we draft is that out of 22 draft picks we are only able to get 6 starters on a team that has never been any good and has holes all over the place. This is a team that sells me every year that we are a team that builds through the draft and develops its players but no one gets developed. There is a good possibility that 6 out of 14 players from the 07 / 08 drafts are not even on this team heading into next year.

So, "Smithiak drafts well!" is only a company line? I admit it. I bought it.

eriadoc
12-10-2009, 12:27 PM
You're off. First of all, any contribution you get from 6th and 7th rounders is a success. So Studdard and Diles holding down starting jobs, even though sub-optimal, makes them a fine pick.

Second, Okoye is not a bust. He had a good rookie season in '07, followed by a sophomore slump in '08, followed by what's turning out to be a pretty good year for him. He's not the dominant force we all hoped he'd be, but he's far from a bust yet.

Third, Jacoby Jones has finally started to contribute somewhere besides ST and is actually turning into a nice little player, and you're calling him a bust? I don't think you know very much about NFL player development. It usually takes about three years for wide receivers to develop. Sure, we'd love all our receivers to be like AJ, but get real. JJ is actually following a pretty standard path of progression, which is remarkable when you consider where he came from.

Finally, any evaluation you want to apply to the '08 and '09 draft is way too early. So there's no point in even going there with you, especially after seeing your unfounded opinion on the '07 draft. The team hit on at least four draft picks from the '07 draft, and Bennett even showed he could play one year, so perhaps there are some other issues going on there.

J_R
12-10-2009, 12:31 PM
Okoye is a bust for being the 10th overall pick. JMO

badboy
12-10-2009, 12:31 PM
It's not good......at all.

2007
Further information: 2007 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/10 (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye Defensive tackle Louisville (Bust)
3/73 Jacoby Jones Wide receiver Lane (Not long for this team)
4/123 (from New Orleans) Fred Bennett Cornerback South Carolina (Not long for this team)
5/144 Brandon Harrison Safety Stanford (He got cut didn't he?)
5/163 (from New Orleans) Brandon Frye Offensive tackle Virginia Tech (Gone)
6/183 Kasey Studdard Offensive guard Texas (Depth at best)
7/218 Zac Diles Linebacker Kansas State (Not the best OLB but he will do for now)

2008
Further information: 2008 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/26 (from Baltimore) Duane Brown Offensive tackle Virginia Tech (Decent pick, I like him)
3/79 Antwaun Molden Cornerback Eastern Kentucky (Always hurt, bust)
3/89 (from Baltimore) Steve Slaton Running back West Virginia (we will see after this year)
4/118 Xavier Adibi Linebacker Virginia Tech (Depth)
5/151 Frank Okam Defensive tackle Texas (You can't be active with this group of scrubs? Not long for this team)
6/173 (from Baltimore) Dominique Barber Safety Minnesota (Depth)
7/223 Alex Brink Quarterback Washington State (gone)

2009
Further information: 2009 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/15 Brian Cushing Linebacker Southern California (Stud)
2/46 Connor Barwin Defensive end Cincinnati (situational, depth)
3/77 Antoine Caldwell Center Alabama (Depth)
4/112 Glover Quin Cornerback New Mexico (Hey look a starter)
4/122 (from Minnesota) Anthony Hill Tight end North Carolina State (mostly inactive or hurt)
5/152 James Casey Tight end Rice (Depth)
6/188 Brice McCain Cornerback Utah (Depth)
7/223 Troy Nolan Safety Arizona State (who?)

I know I know, a lot of guys say that it takes 3-4 years to judge a draft but the 07 draft looks a lot like the 05 draft.


2005
Further information: 2005 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/16 (from New Orleans) Travis Johnson Defensive tackle Florida State
3/73 (from Dallas) Vernand Morency Running back Oklahoma State
4/114 Jerome Mathis Wide receiver Hampton
5/151 Drew Hodgdon Center Arizona State
6/188 C.C. Brown Safety Louisiana-Lafayette
7/277 Kenneth Pettway Linebacker Grambling

My problem with the way that we draft is that out of 22 draft picks we are only able to get 6 starters on a team that has never been any good and has holes all over the place. This is a team that sells me every year that we are a team that builds through the draft and develops its players but no one gets developed. There is a good possibility that 6 out of 14 players from the 07 / 08 drafts are not even on this team heading into next year.Ddressing 2007 only for now,

Okoye; not a bust but not what I hoped for. Bush seems to have the run game slowed immensely and Okoye gets lots of plays. I would evaluate him after season.

JJ: I think you are speaking from emotion that the guy keeps shooting himself in the toe. Get to the damn meeting!He has corrected the fumbling issue and was doing well as a WR. He is not going anywhere yet.

Bennett: A true puzzle. Another poster said Fred suffered a personal loss that screwed his entire season. If this is true and hoping he can resurrect his playing career, I'd keep him until I could see if his head is better.

Studdard: I can't evaluate this guy. Early season, I think Pitts was helping him.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 12:34 PM
You're off. First of all, any contribution you get from 6th and 7th rounders is a success. So Studdard and Diles holding down starting jobs, even though sub-optimal, makes them a fine pick.

Second, Okoye is not a bust. He had a good rookie season in '07, followed by a sophomore slump in '08, followed by what's turning out to be a pretty good year for him. He's not the dominant force we all hoped he'd be, but he's far from a bust yet.

Ok0ye is an epic bust. He makes zero difference and we pay him a top ten rookie contract. You can't tell the difference when he gets replaced by a journeyman like Shaun Cody...we get the same non push and inability to anchor.

Mailman
12-10-2009, 12:38 PM
It's not good......at all.



This thread...it's not good...at all.

Seriously reactionary stuff here that's all about Kubiak's job security and not at all about the players themselves.

Cmon, man. Jacoby Jones, Zac Diles, Cushing, Amobi Okoye, Quin, Slaton, Barwin, Duane Brown, etc.

Dumb.

J_R
12-10-2009, 12:38 PM
Ok0ye is an epic bust. He makes zero difference and we pay him a top ten rookie contract. You can't tell the difference when he gets replaced by a journeyman like Shaun Cody...we get the same non push and inability to anchor.

You must spread reputation around before giving it to Vinny again.

+1

eriadoc
12-10-2009, 12:44 PM
Ok0ye is an epic bust. He makes zero difference and we pay him a top ten rookie contract. You can't tell the difference when he gets replaced by a journeyman like Shaun Cody...we get the same non push and inability to anchor.

Sorry, I reserve the term "epic bust" for guys like Tony Mandarich.

Even if you think Okoye is a bust for where he was picked, it still doesn't validate the point of the thread.

Goldensilence
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
You're off. First of all, any contribution you get from 6th and 7th rounders is a success. So Studdard and Diles holding down starting jobs, even though sub-optimal, makes them a fine pick.

Second, Okoye is not a bust. He had a good rookie season in '07, followed by a sophomore slump in '08, followed by what's turning out to be a pretty good year for him. He's not the dominant force we all hoped he'd be, but he's far from a bust yet.

Third, Jacoby Jones has finally started to contribute somewhere besides ST and is actually turning into a nice little player, and you're calling him a bust? I don't think you know very much about NFL player development. It usually takes about three years for wide receivers to develop. Sure, we'd love all our receivers to be like AJ, but get real. JJ is actually following a pretty standard path of progression, which is remarkable when you consider where he came from.

Finally, any evaluation you want to apply to the '08 and '09 draft is way too early. So there's no point in even going there with you, especially after seeing your unfounded opinion on the '07 draft. The team hit on at least four draft picks from the '07 draft, and Bennett even showed he could play one year, so perhaps there are some other issues going on there.

I don't think he's a bust but certainly an epic disappointment considering we missed on on Revis and Willis for him.

I think Studdard holding a starting job down is more on Gary Kubiak keeping him around then Studdard blowing people away with his talent. That's just me me though.

Diles. Not argument here. Lunch pail guy who brought it and has outplayed and out hustled guys to keep his spot. Good pick.

Jones has been up and down, but you're right this year he's contributing beyond punts. I wouldn't call him a good pick yet but looks like he might be coming around.

Fred Bennett is a puzzle. Looked like he was the real deal his rookie campaign and then just falls off dramatically.

I've pointed it out in other threads. Smith has been up and down on the draft, but it's hard to really put it all on him considering the amount of input Gary Kubiak has.

TEXANRED
12-10-2009, 01:00 PM
This thread...it's not good...at all.

Seriously reactionary stuff here that's all about Kubiak's job security and not at all about the players themselves.

Cmon, man. Jacoby Jones, Zac Diles, Cushing, Amobi Okoye, Quin, Slaton, Barwin, Duane Brown, etc.

Dumb.

Nice opinion.

JJ? He is another Mathis. He won't be in the league long and he has been given chance after chance to clean it up. He was even made to house with the rookies this year.

Okoye is a bust. I don't know how you can debate that.

Quin is a first year player and too early to tell. Bennett any one?

Slaton? Really? Not saying that he is a bust but he has had one really good year and then 7 fumbles in five games this year.

Brown and Cushing are studs.

Barwin has had two sacks IIRC so far this year. He is a second round draft pick that is situational. Its a bit of a luxery pick when you have a team with needs all over the place. Not saying he does not have talent but again, we spent a second round pick on a guy who has only played that position for one year. Any body remember Seth Wand?

Diles? I am not sold on Diles either. I think he is a younger Morlon Greenwood. He is slow and playing out of position. He is keeping the seat warm IMO.

So none of those guys you mentioned with the exception of Brown and Cushing are worth debating.

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 01:03 PM
Earlier this year i made a post on how Smith has done well in finding veteran to fill in holes. This post shows me that the Texans have had to do so. While you can't expect a particular mid to late round draft pick to workout, becuase of the numbers of players in the NFL you have to hit on the some of these guys not just as depth, but as starters. right now, I am seeing one long-term starter (diles) from this list drafted the 4th round or later.

Let me put it this way to fill out a starting line-up, assuming one high dollar free agent and hitting on all of you picks in the first 3 rounds, it would take 5 plus years to get to 22 starters. The numbers say finding players in the late rounds is a have to do not a nice thing to do.

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 01:07 PM
These same players would look better right now if the team was 7-5.

beerlover
12-10-2009, 01:07 PM
you've got to include Matt Schaub he cost Texans 2nd rd. picks in 07 & 08 :tiphat:

JB
12-10-2009, 01:08 PM
Nice opinion.

JJ? He is another Mathis. He won't be in the league long and he has been given chance after chance to clean it up. He was even made to house with the rookies this year.

Okoye is a bust. I don't know how you can debate that.

Quin is a first year player and too early to tell. Bennett any one?

Slaton? Really? Not saying that he is a bust but he has had one really good year and then 7 fumbles in five games this year.

Brown and Cushing are studs.

Barwin has had two sacks IIRC so far this year. He is a second round draft pick that is situational. Its a bit of a luxery pick when you have a team with needs all over the place. Not saying he does not have talent but again, we spent a second round pick on a guy who has only played that position for one year. Any body remember Seth Wand?

Diles? I am not sold on Diles either. I think he is a younger Morlon Greenwood. He is slow and playing out of position. He is keeping the seat warm IMO.

So none of those guys you mentioned with the exception of Brown and Cushing are worth debating.

So, why do you think your opinion is any more valid than any other fan posting here?

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 01:10 PM
These same players would look better right now if the team was 7-5.

Maybe if these players WERE better, the team would be 7-5.

Ckw
12-10-2009, 01:12 PM
I will only address one thing: those of you hating on Slaton.

Yes, he had major fumble problems this year (how much of that was due to the neck injury we will never know) but have you looked at the guys production this year?!?!?!?! He was not that effective running the ball for us this season but behind the worst interior line in the NFL, most backs would struggle. That being said in only 11 games, the guy had over 850 total yards (rushing and receiving), averaged over 9 yards per reception, and scored 7 touchdowns!

Such a bust that 3rd round Steve Slaton is.

BigBull17
12-10-2009, 01:14 PM
Nice opinion.

JJ? He is another Mathis. He won't be in the league long and he has been given chance after chance to clean it up. He was even made to house with the rookies this year.

Okoye is a bust. I don't know how you can debate that.

Quin is a first year player and too early to tell. Bennett any one?

Slaton? Really? Not saying that he is a bust but he has had one really good year and then 7 fumbles in five games this year.

Brown and Cushing are studs.

Barwin has had two sacks IIRC so far this year. He is a second round draft pick that is situational. Its a bit of a luxery pick when you have a team with needs all over the place. Not saying he does not have talent but again, we spent a second round pick on a guy who has only played that position for one year. Any body remember Seth Wand?

Diles? I am not sold on Diles either. I think he is a younger Morlon Greenwood. He is slow and playing out of position. He is keeping the seat warm IMO.

So none of those guys you mentioned with the exception of Brown and Cushing are worth debating.

He is alot more natural at wide reciever to say Mathis 2.0. I'm not sold that JJ could'nt be a bigger piece of our puzzle.

Texecutioner
12-10-2009, 01:18 PM
you must spread reputation around before giving it to vinny again.

+1

+ 2

And I can't believe that anyone is trying to argue that Okoye isn't a bust. When you spend a top ten pick in the draft on a DT, you're supposed to get a stud. Okoye has been very far from that.

BigBull17
12-10-2009, 01:20 PM
you've got to include Matt Schaub he cost Texans 2nd rd. picks in 07 & 08 :tiphat:

I don't think that was a bad trade on our part. They got 2 2nd round picks but had to turn around and draft a guy 3rd overall.

Ckw
12-10-2009, 01:21 PM
He is alot more natural at wide reciever to say Mathis 2.0. I'm not sold that JJ could'nt be a bigger piece of our puzzle.

Jerome Mathis: 6 total receptions, 80 total yards receiving, 1 receiving td

Jacoby Jones: 34 total receptions, 495 totals yards receiving, 4 receiving tds

Man, those guys sure are similar WRs. I encourage some of you guys on this board to start here (http://football.about.com/cs/football101/a/bl_football101.htm) and after that, then come discuss football with the big boys.

BigBull17
12-10-2009, 01:27 PM
Jerome Mathis: 6 total receptions, 80 total yards receiving, 1 receiving td

Jacoby Jones: 34 total receptions, 495 totals yards receiving, 4 receiving tds

Man, those guys sure are similar WRs. I encourage some of you guys on this board to start here (http://football.about.com/cs/football101/a/bl_football101.htm) and after that, then come discuss football with the big boys.

Is the link directed at me? Cause I think was arguing that JJ wasn't Mathis 2.0.

beerlover
12-10-2009, 01:32 PM
I don't think that was a bad trade on our part. They got 2 2nd round picks but had to turn around and draft a guy 3rd overall.

doesn't matter what WE think about this trade the fact remains in regards to Smithiak's draft history Matt Schaub has to be included. this perception of suckage or not has to be taken in its proper context. personally I would of traded a whole entire draft just to run David Carr out of town & bring in Matt Schaub :cowboy1:

Ckw
12-10-2009, 01:40 PM
Is the link directed at me? Cause I think was arguing that JJ wasn't Mathis 2.0.

Not at all. Link was more a joke than anything, and I was just piggybacking off of your post. I think you are correct about JJ not being Mathis 2.0. They aren't really even that similar. They are both black, have some attitude problems, and have good-great return skills. JJ is a much better receiver, runs better routes, appears (at least this year) to be a harder worker, but JJ is not as good of a kick returner as Mathis nor as fast (even though both can fly).

Mailman
12-10-2009, 02:22 PM
Again, dumb thread (http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft_slide_2.html?thisspeed=25000)

El Tejano
12-10-2009, 02:53 PM
So are you saying that Cassiak was better? Someone drafted Mario, Demeco, Winston, Owen Daniels, David Anderson. Heck, even Charles Spencer was a good LT before his leg got tore up. That was three Pro Bowlers, 2 starters and a quality depth guy right there.

Or was the 2006 Draft left out on purpose?

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 03:00 PM
Again, dumb thread (http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft_slide_2.html?thisspeed=25000)


Did you read the article or just assume because Forbes printed it is accuarate?

1) the article is dated prior to this past's year draft.

and here is the standard which he used

Behind the Numbers
To find the NFL's best and worst teams at drafting, we looked at the last three years of drafts for all 32 NFL teams. To judge the success or failure of the drafting teams, we looked at the percentage of players from those three draft classes who were still listed as active members of the team.

We gave a little extra weight to players who had made the Associated Press' All-Pro first and second teams--the players deemed as that year's best at their respective positions. Membership in this elite group is difficult to crack for a young player, as many long-tenured veterans make the All-Pro team year after year based only on reputation (take the N.Y. Jets' Alan Faneca).



As long as player was on the team, he was considered a good draft pick. Matters some if he is an all-Pro and no more if player is a starter or barely on the roster. Even admits that the draft "success" it gives the Texans has not mattered on the field, which probably goes to the flaw in the method used.

phantom17
12-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Okoye is a bust for being the 10th overall pick. JMO



SIGH! Sadly this is starting to become true, but I will give him one more year! I'm hoping he will progress well & becomes a force, & not a farce in 2010!:bat:

Hervoyel
12-10-2009, 03:41 PM
Ok0ye is an epic bust. He makes zero difference and we pay him a top ten rookie contract. You can't tell the difference when he gets replaced by a journeyman like Shaun Cody...we get the same non push and inability to anchor.


That is to me the most disturbing thing about the non-effect of many of our draft picks. We're throwing first round picks and free agent contracts at guys to play on the DL over the past few years and yet we're running around scraping up the Lions cast-offs, signing street free agents, and trotting out Methusela... I mean Zgonina and it doesn't make any difference. Amobi Okoye in year three coming from pick #10 should make more of a difference than he does. There's just no two ways about that.

El Tejano
12-10-2009, 03:51 PM
So are you saying that Cassiak was better? Someone drafted Mario, Demeco, Winston, Owen Daniels, David Anderson. Heck, even Charles Spencer was a good LT before his leg got tore up. That was three Pro Bowlers, 2 starters and a quality depth guy right there.

Or was the 2006 Draft left out on purpose?

I'm still asking.

4Texans
12-10-2009, 03:56 PM
So are you saying that Cassiak was better? Someone drafted Mario, Demeco, Winston, Owen Daniels, David Anderson. Heck, even Charles Spencer was a good LT before his leg got tore up. That was three Pro Bowlers, 2 starters and a quality depth guy right there.

Or was the 2006 Draft left out on purpose?

Smith was not hired until after the 2006 draft.:thinking:

TEXANRED
12-10-2009, 03:58 PM
So, why do you think your opinion is any more valid than any other fan posting here?

It's not. I didn't know that you held me in such high regard. Thats sweet. :kitten:

TEXANRED
12-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Again, dumb thread (http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft_slide_2.html?thisspeed=25000)

Way to contribute and be productive to the conversation.

Hold on, let me get out my rainbows and sunshine for you.

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 04:01 PM
Maybe if these players WERE better, the team would be 7-5.

So, it is a talent issue and not the coaching. Hmmm.

Thorn
12-10-2009, 04:04 PM
So, it is a talent issue and not the coaching. Hmmm.


It's both. :)

TEXANRED
12-10-2009, 04:06 PM
So are you saying that Cassiak was better? Someone drafted Mario, Demeco, Winston, Owen Daniels, David Anderson. Heck, even Charles Spencer was a good LT before his leg got tore up. That was three Pro Bowlers, 2 starters and a quality depth guy right there.

Or was the 2006 Draft left out on purpose?

That was the Cass class. Smith was 2007.

TEXANRED
12-10-2009, 04:15 PM
Did you read the article or just assume because Forbes printed it is accuarate?

1) the article is dated prior to this past's year draft.

and here is the standard which he used



As long as player was on the team, he was considered a good draft pick. Matters some if he is an all-Pro and no more if player is a starter or barely on the roster. Even admits that the draft "success" it gives the Texans has not mattered on the field, which probably goes to the flaw in the method used.

This is really the thing that I looked at the most. Who we have drafted and how have they helped our team. Out of the 22 picks over the last 3 years we produced 6 starters. Out of those 6 starters I would only grade 2 of them, Brown and Cushing, as above average players.

Goatcheese
12-10-2009, 06:25 PM
My problem with Smith is that he always targets the developmental projects based on physical talent over those with proven ability, when the Texans need players who can start and contribute now.

Just look at our 3rd round+ picks since he's been here:

A.Okoye project
J.Jones project
D.Brown project
A.Molden project
S.Slaton project(as a full time starter, otherwise a situational pick)
B.Cushing FINALLY! An NFL ready player who could step in and make an impact(that isn't negative)
C.Barwin project

Using 1st day picks on long term developmental projects is a luxury of good teams with veteran starters. A team that has to throw their rookies into the fire needs to draft NFL ready players.

You can't draft D.Brown to protect the blind side of Matty Icepack as a rookie. He's a project who needs time before you throw him out there to get Schaub clobbered 30 times a year. You can't draft a 19 year old kid to start at a position where players don't sniff their potential until their mid-late 20's.

He just doesn't understand the situation that he's in.

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 06:49 PM
So, it is a talent issue and not the coaching. Hmmm.

I am not an either/or, black/white thinker, but remember smithiak has turned over the roster complete, so they are cooking the meal with the groceries they shopped for.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 08:04 PM
I am not an either/or, black/white thinker, but remember smithiak has turned over the roster complete, so they are cooking the meal with the groceries they shopped for.

Problem is, they are cooking a slow-simmering soup, instead of steak and
eggs.

JB
12-10-2009, 08:48 PM
Problem is, they are cooking a slow-simmering soup, instead of steak and
eggs.

When starting with crap and heavy-weight paper, good soup is a luxury

TexCanada
12-10-2009, 08:52 PM
When starting with crap and heavy-weight paper, good soup is a luxury

Yes, but now we've had 3 years of soup! Gimme some steak baby!

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 08:53 PM
When starting with crap and heavy-weight paper, good soup is a luxury

Yeah, but we've been on soup the last 3 years. It's starting to feel like
Communist Russia.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 08:56 PM
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/distinguishedgoods/Soup_Nazi_Seinfeld.jpg

JB
12-10-2009, 09:02 PM
I agree, I am so totally tired of soup.

But I would rather have soup than just gruel!

wolf123
12-10-2009, 10:39 PM
Wow, I gotta say anyone who doesn't think the combined efforts of the kubiak and smith regime have done an excellent job in player personel do not understand football

Before Smith and Kubiak got here we had. Andre, Chester, Dunta, kris brown. 4 good players on our whole team!!!!

Now we have. Andre, Owen daniel, Matt schaub, Kevin walter, Duane Brown, Chester, Eric Winston, Slaton, Vonta on offense alone!!

On Defense we have-Dunta, Eugene wilson, Pollard, Ryans, Diles, Cushing, Mario, Glover quinn.

People who evalute GM's or coaches on the draft alone know nothing. The fact is since we got rid of Capers and Casserly(anyone believing that he had anything to do with picking up our talent in 06 are crazy!) Don't believe me just go back over his drafts and free agency moves from 02-05!!

Fact is these two men have taken us from a position of worst talent in the NFL to now we have the ability to win any game.

TexCanada
12-10-2009, 10:44 PM
Wow, I gotta say anyone who doesn't think the combined efforts of the kubiak and smith regime have done an excellent job in player personel do not understand football

Before Smith and Kubiak got here we had. Andre, Chester, Dunta, kris brown. 4 good players on our whole team!!!!

Now we have. Andre, Owen daniel, Matt schaub, Kevin walter, Duane Brown, Chester, Eric Winston, Slaton, Vonta on offense alone!!

On Defense we have-Dunta, Eugene wilson, Pollard, Ryans, Diles, Cushing, Mario, Glover quinn.

People who evalute GM's or coaches on the draft alone know nothing. The fact is since we got rid of Capers and Casserly(anyone believing that he had anything to do with picking up our talent in 06 are crazy!) Don't believe me just go back over his drafts and free agency moves from 02-05!!

Fact is these two men have taken us from a position of worst talent in the NFL to now we have the ability to win any game.

The fact is that if you compare a steaming pile of dog crap to something else, that something else looks quite amazing.

wolf123
12-10-2009, 10:51 PM
The fact is that if you compare a steaming pile of dog crap to something else, that something else looks quite amazing.

If you compare our starters to most other teams you will see we hold our own in talent.

TexCanada
12-10-2009, 10:56 PM
If you compare our starters to most other teams you will see we hold our own in talent.

I wasn't really voicing my opinion one way or the other on Smithiak's successes or failures. I'm saying that if all you're looking for is someone to be better than our old regime, than you havn't set the bar very high. I am not satisfied with having the "best team in our history" because that still only makes us an 8-8 team.

SAMURAITEXAN
12-10-2009, 11:02 PM
What would be a successful draft rate(i.e. starter and depth rate) in comparison with other NFL teams for last three years? Some teams depth players are better and some are bad. So, it won't exactly tell you we are suceessful in draft or not. But, this comparison rate should give us some ideal of how we have been drafting for last three years.

I don't have such info. Do yall have some draft comparison info?

Go Texans!!!

wolf123
12-10-2009, 11:04 PM
I wasn't really voicing my opinion one way or the other on Smithiak's successes or failures. I'm saying that if all you're looking for is someone to be better than our old regime, than you havn't set the bar very high. I am not satisfied with having the "best team in our history" because that still only makes us an 8-8 team.

I agree, I'm not satisfied either but I remember what hell looked like and I'm glad to be on the other side of that.

Second Honeymoon
12-10-2009, 11:04 PM
When starting with crap and heavy-weight paper, good soup is a luxury

Yeah, but we've been on soup the last 3 years. It's starting to feel like
Communist Russia.

In Communist Russia, soup eats you.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=390143&d=1213313993

BigBull17
12-11-2009, 07:19 AM
Not at all. Link was more a joke than anything, and I was just piggybacking off of your post. I think you are correct about JJ not being Mathis 2.0. They aren't really even that similar. They are both black, have some attitude problems, and have good-great return skills. JJ is a much better receiver, runs better routes, appears (at least this year) to be a harder worker, but JJ is not as good of a kick returner as Mathis nor as fast (even though both can fly).

And doesnt beat pregnant women. Is big and physical where one was a track guy. I think mathis was a extension of Marciano's special teams. Now that you can't wedge, our return game is suffering.

New_Texans
12-11-2009, 09:37 AM
How can you guys say that we are one of the most talented teams in the league then say that we draft horribly? I don't get that...Not ALL of your draft picks are going to end up being Cushing/Meco/Williams gods! Most of them are going to end up being solid players that do their job. Relax, this team has the talent; we've been in every goddamn game this season except for the Jets game and lost them because of IMO coaching decisions and because of the Curse of the Kris/Chris'.

El Tejano
12-11-2009, 10:41 AM
That was the Cass class. Smith was 2007.

But are you saying that Casserly and Kubiak, was better than Smith and Kubiak?

TEXANRED
12-11-2009, 03:27 PM
But are you saying that Casserly and Kubiak, was better than Smith and Kubiak?

No. I was answering your question.

Maddict5
12-12-2009, 07:02 AM
Maybe if these players WERE better, the team would be 7-5.

they'd still be the exact same draft picks if kris brown kicks his fg's or not... or if chris brown doesnt turnover the ball

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 09:24 AM
Comparing Rick Smith to Charley Casserly MAKES Smith look like Bill Polian.
He ain't that. The reason mediocre looks good to the pro "Keep-Kubiak-Here's,"
is because the starting point was pure garbage. Maybe we make the playoffs
by going 0-6 in the AFC South, because "it's too hard," and go 10-0 the rest
of the way.

We'll make the playoffs THAT way. Kubiak HAS been consistent, but it just
won't matter. The six games that matter most get glossed over, while he
does well in the other ten.

Competitive??

My ass.

Silver Oak
12-12-2009, 10:24 AM
Comparing Rick Smith to Charley Casserly MAKES Smith look like Bill Polian.
He ain't that. The reason mediocre looks good to the pro "Keep-Kubiak-Here's,"
is because the starting point was pure garbage. Maybe we make the playoffs
by going 0-6 in the AFC South, because "it's too hard," and go 10-0 the rest
of the way.

We'll make the playoffs THAT way. Kubiak HAS been consistent, but it just
won't matter. The six games that matter most get glossed over, while he
does well in the other ten.

Competitive??

My ass.


http://i45.tinypic.com/8w03s7.jpg

ArlingtonTexan
12-12-2009, 10:49 AM
they'd still be the exact same draft picks if kris brown kicks his fg's or not... or if chris brown doesnt turnover the ball

You missed point like Kris Brown missed those FGs. If the players (draft selections) were better the games don't come down a journeyman RB or mediocore field goal kicker.

gafftop
12-12-2009, 11:57 AM
1. Too cute on draft picks. Okoye, Barwin, JJ. If we were the New England Pats or Steelers then maybe take flyers, but we aren't.
2. Waste too many picks on DL. My theory on DL is they are just one step away from being fat nobodys. DL is all heart and it is hard to judge that. Just look at all the draft picks wasted on DL and look what we have, NOTHING. Williams overated. Look at how many no names are playing great in NFL.
3. Very shortsighted in draft. All I ever hear is how important running game is and the you see what we have in OL and RB. I am one that had thread during draft about " i want a running back" All I heard is we have the mighty SLATON. BS. Look up his history in college. Great 1st year and then nothing. Wasted a chance to PU a FA RB for just money. Do not give up draft choices for FA.

My main problem is their philosophy in the draft is wrong.

TimeKiller
12-12-2009, 12:18 PM
I can't complain too much about the drafts. I think they bring in decent players, this year the focus was clearly on athleticism but when it comes down to putting players in the right places/playing to their strengths the staff can't (or won't) forge a new idea. They get stuck in their system so the potential gets wasted and the production is inconsistent.

Take JJ for example. Who could've guessed a 6'2'' 230 guy that can blaze and juke would make a good PR? Oh I don't know, everybody? Now take that blazing speed and size, turn him into a WR because that's what good coaches do. Uhoh spaghetios.....

Maddict5
12-12-2009, 12:44 PM
You missed point like Kris Brown missed those FGs. If the players (draft selections) were better the games don't come down a journeyman RB or mediocore field goal kicker.

i didnt actually, my point was that 90% of the players are playing well enough to be 7-5

Vinny
12-12-2009, 02:33 PM
2. Waste too many picks on DL. My theory on DL is they are just one step away from being fat nobodys. DL is all heart and it is hard to judge that. Just look at all the draft picks wasted on DL and look what we have, NOTHING. Williams overated. Look at how many no names are playing great in NFL.

laughable. That's what they are in jr high but in the pros the games are controlled by those guys. I've met my share of linemen and let me tell you...they aren't just fat nobodies. Go get a 6'4" 310 pound man who can run 4.9 and get in his way and come back and tell me he is a fat nobody. Big men who move like that are special athletes in their own right. Games are won in the trenches.

TEXANRED
12-12-2009, 03:12 PM
laughable. That's what they are in jr high but in the pros the games are controlled by those guys. I've met my share of linemen and let me tell you...they aren't just fat nobodies. Go get a 6'4" 310 pound man who can run 4.9 and get in his way and come back and tell me he is a fat nobody. Big men who move like that are special athletes in their own right. Games are won in the trenches.

And our trenches suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!!!!!!!!!

gafftop
12-12-2009, 08:42 PM
I am not saying the DL is not important. I am saying we have spent alot on the area and have nothing to show for it. Hard to measure heart.

stingray
12-12-2009, 08:49 PM
laughable. That's what they are in jr high but in the pros the games are controlled by those guys. I've met my share of linemen and let me tell you...they aren't just fat nobodies. Go get a 6'4" 310 pound man who can run 4.9 and get in his way and come back and tell me he is a fat nobody. Big men who move like that are special athletes in their own right. Games are won in the trenches.

Exactly Vinny. Most of these "fat nobody's" who weigh 320 lbs. can out run the average 5' 9" 180 lbs accountant in a 40.

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 01:04 AM
And our trenches suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!!!!!!!!!

Do you watch this team? These guys have excelled on short yardage! Since week 3, this defense is one of the best versus the run. So, I'm not sure where you get that they "suck". It's certainly an area that could be upgraded but can't we give them credit when it is certainly due?

Goldensilence
12-13-2009, 01:22 AM
Do you watch this team? These guys have excelled on short yardage! Since week 3, this defense is one of the best versus the run. So, I'm not sure where you get that they "suck". It's certainly an area that could be upgraded but can't we give them credit when it is certainly due?

Would've been nice for our mediocre trenches to have gotten a stop last week as the Jags iced the game with MJD.

beerlover
12-13-2009, 07:57 AM
06 - rebuild from scratch, cornerstone players Mario Williams & DeMeco Ryans
07 - added franchise QB, Matt Schaub, missed on 1st pick Amobi Okoye, step backward
08 - rebuild OL w/Gibbs recoverd from Sophmore slump
09- 1st true Texans draft, solid top to bottom, coaches in place, players ascending until injury bug hit.
10 - red zone conversion will have to be addressed as #1 priority. Need Owen & Steve back 100%. Need to add a TD machine like a Toby Gerhart plus help on interior line. :logo:

Vinny
12-13-2009, 08:26 AM
Do you watch this team? These guys have excelled on short yardage! Since week 3, this defense is one of the best versus the run. So, I'm not sure where you get that they "suck". It's certainly an area that could be upgraded but can't we give them credit when it is certainly due?Now the team "excels" in short yardage? lol I've watch you turn into an incredible homer the last few weeks. You and Jagsbtch have something in common finally. On both sides of the ball this team has consistently lost the battle at the LOS when it counted most. Did you not see the team unable to stop MJD when we really needed it? The reason Kubiak called that idiotic flea flicker play because this team is weak from G to G (none of the current starting players G to G are NFL caliber quality starters) and has no feature back with Slaton out. I've come to the conclusion that you aren't watching games. Perhaps you are turning your back when the important plays are run like your hero Kubes.

DexmanC
12-13-2009, 08:51 AM
Do you watch this team? These guys have excelled on short yardage! Since week 3, this defense is one of the best versus the run. So, I'm not sure where you get that they "suck". It's certainly an area that could be upgraded but can't we give them credit when it is certainly due?

You haven't watched this team in the last SIX weeks? Keep drinkin' that
Battle Red Kool-Aid

http://i50.tinypic.com/vhdb0j.jpg

record
12-13-2009, 10:58 AM
You can't just judge draft results when evaluating our GM. What about other player acquisitions? Although I am very upset about the current 4 game losing streak, I don't think it is due to the talent on the team. The roster has been completely turned over since Casserly left and is tons better. You also have to include trades and free agency moves as well as his managing of the cap.

I know these are debateable, but these are some of the good moves I think we have done to build up the roster outside of the draft:

Pollard, Leach, Myers (very average or below, but we gave up little to get him), Schuab, Wilson, Butler, Moats, Walter, Demps last year, Zgoninia, not giving in to Dunta over last off season

Bad moves:

Orlosky, C Brown, A Green

Debatable:

Reeves - disappointing last season, but has been playing better
A Smith
Cody
A Davis


Even if you think the GMs draft results are poor (which I don't although they aren't as good as I thought), I'm not sure how you can say the same about the rest of his job. Could he be doing better, yes. However, I don't think Rick Smith is bad. I think he has done a pretty good job overall when you consider how poor the talent level was when he got here. Our roster still isn't deep enough to with stand injuries and we still have some major holes to fill though. They need to just keep working at it.

When you play in as many close games as the Texans have, it isn't a lack of talent but a lack of execution. If we were a little more talented, perhaps we would overcome some of the lack of execution at times, but we aren't.

TimeKiller
12-13-2009, 11:05 AM
laughable. That's what they are in jr high but in the pros the games are controlled by those guys. I've met my share of linemen and let me tell you...they aren't just fat nobodies. Go get a 6'4" 310 pound man who can run 4.9 and get in his way and come back and tell me he is a fat nobody. Big men who move like that are special athletes in their own right. Games are won in the trenches.

Indeed and besides that...let me count while I type: Mario, Amobi, Okam, Barwin....4 in 3 drafts? Out of 21 or so picks? That's not spending a whole lot for an area that STILL needs improvement. Yeah it sucks that 91 isn't impressing anybody, Okam never really stood out but Mario is beast when healthy and Barwin is looking up. If you want to add in ASmith he's been a good signing IMO.

CloakNNNdagger
04-15-2010, 06:45 PM
Found this somewhat surprising little blurb (http://www.inquisitr.com/70003/draft-day-decision-makers-houston-texans/).

Over the past five years the Texans have done a fairly good job on draft day. In this time period they have made 35 draft picks. Three of those have gone onto the pro bowl, 12 are starters, and 12 are backups. This may be the best stat only 11 of them are out of the league or playing for other teams. That is a fine record, which would be impressive on any team.

You would have to further dissect these numbers by asking how many of these "starters" are true quality starters.

Rozelle
04-15-2010, 07:33 PM
Too early to call Okoye a bust. The kids what... 22 years old. Has he lived up to the 1.10? No, but you can't expect a kid (basically right out of high school) to be an impact player in the NFL in his first couple years.

He didn't even start playing football until he was a sophmore in HS and up to that point really knew nothing about the game. We'll know more in a couple years.

I thought Barwin was good pick, great motor guy. He's looks like he's gonna be a good one.

2slik4u
04-15-2010, 08:45 PM
Nice opinion.

JJ? He is another Mathis. He won't be in the league long and he has been given chance after chance to clean it up. He was even made to house with the rookies this year.

Okoye is a bust. I don't know how you can debate that.

Quin is a first year player and too early to tell. Bennett any one?

Slaton? Really? Not saying that he is a bust but he has had one really good year and then 7 fumbles in five games this year.

Brown and Cushing are studs.

Barwin has had two sacks IIRC so far this year. He is a second round draft pick that is situational. Its a bit of a luxery pick when you have a team with needs all over the place. Not saying he does not have talent but again, we spent a second round pick on a guy who has only played that position for one year. Any body remember Seth Wand?
Diles? I am not sold on Diles either. I think he is a younger Morlon Greenwood. He is slow and playing out of position. He is keeping the seat warm IMO.

So none of those guys you mentioned with the exception of Brown and Cushing are worth debating.

Connor Barwin had 3.5 sacks in his rookie year.

Thats more than the #3 overall pick (Tyson Jackson - 0.0 sacks), the #9 overall pick (BJ Raji - 1.0 sacks), the #11 overall pick (Aaron Maybin - 0.0 sacks), the #18 overall pick (Robert Ayers - 0.0 sacks), the #24 overall pick (Peria Jerry - 0.0 sacks), and the #32 overall pick (evander hood - 1.0 sacks) COMBINED!!

Our "luxury" situational pass rusher had more sacks in a non starting position than all of the first round defensive lineman combined.

Now I know that sacks arent everything but they are all we have to measure these guys with.

***note*** Mario had 4.5 sacks in his rookie year, one more than our 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

With all that being said, I would say that getting a second round situational pass rusher that outperformed all of the first round defensive lineman, I would say thats taking the best player available with great upside.

The guy has a motor that doesnt quit running. Im as excited about Barwin as I am about Cushing.

The Pencil Neck
04-15-2010, 08:51 PM
Connor Barwin had 3.5 sacks in his rookie year.

Thats more than the #3 overall pick (Tyson Jackson - 0.0 sacks), the #9 overall pick (BJ Raji - 1.0 sacks), the #11 overall pick (Aaron Maybin - 0.0 sacks), the #18 overall pick (Robert Ayers - 0.0 sacks), the #24 overall pick (Peria Jerry - 0.0 sacks), and the #32 overall pick (evander hood - 1.0 sacks) COMBINED!!

Our "luxury" situational pass rusher had more sacks in a non starting position than all of the first round defensive lineman combined.

Now I know that sacks arent everything but they are all we have to measure these guys with.

***note*** Mario had 4.5 sacks in his rookie year, one more than our 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

With all that being said, I would say that getting a second round situational pass rusher that outperformed all of the first round defensive lineman, I would say thats taking the best player available with great upside.

The guy has a motor that doesnt quit running. Im as excited about Barwin as I am about Cushing.


Um.

Connor had 4.5 sacks, not 3.5. He had the same amount of sacks as Mario did his rookie year.

I expected him to get more than that actually.

2slik4u
04-15-2010, 08:54 PM
Um.

Connor had 4.5 sacks, not 3.5. He had the same amount of sacks as Mario did his rookie year.

I expected him to get more than that actually.

Thats what I thought too but I cant seem to find that anywhere. According to NFL.com and espn.com, its 3.5.

If you can find 4.5 elsewhere, please post with link.

The Pencil Neck
04-15-2010, 08:56 PM
Thats what I thought too but I cant seem to find that anywhere. According to NFL.com and espn.com, its 3.5.

If you can find 4.5 elsewhere, please post with link.

NFL.com.
http://www.nfl.com/players/search?category=name&filter=Connor+Barwin&playerType=current

DE 98 Barwin, Connor ACT TCKL 18 SCK 4.5 FF 0 INT -- HOU

2slik4u
04-15-2010, 08:59 PM
NFL.com.
http://www.nfl.com/players/search?category=name&filter=Connor+Barwin&playerType=current

DE 98 Barwin, Connor ACT TCKL 18 SCK 4.5 FF 0 INT -- HOU

Not to play semantics but.....

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/player.asp?player_id=387

http://search.espn.go.com/connor-barwin/

http://sports.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylc=X1MDMjE0MjQ3ODk0OARfcgMyBGZyMgNzYS1ncA RncHJpZANGQVR0LjdOeVN0MnM2OFFBUndINFVBBG5fZ3BzAzQE cHFzdHIDYmFyd2luBHF1ZXJ5A2Nvbm5vciUyMGJhcndpbgRzYW MDMQRzYW8DMQ--?p=connor%20barwin&fr=sports-us-ss

That first one is a link from NFL.com. Heres three sites that say 3.5. Not sure which it is but the fact remains the same. He outperformed all other DL ahead of him.

The Pencil Neck
04-15-2010, 09:07 PM
Not to play semantics but.....

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/player.asp?player_id=387

http://search.espn.go.com/connor-barwin/

http://sports.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylc=X1MDMjE0MjQ3ODk0OARfcgMyBGZyMgNzYS1ncA RncHJpZANGQVR0LjdOeVN0MnM2OFFBUndINFVBBG5fZ3BzAzQE cHFzdHIDYmFyd2luBHF1ZXJ5A2Nvbm5vciUyMGJhcndpbgRzYW MDMQRzYW8DMQ--?p=connor%20barwin&fr=sports-us-ss

That first one is a link from NFL.com. Heres three sites that say 3.5. Not sure which it is but the fact remains the same. He outperformed all other DL ahead of him.

Yeah, I don't disagree with your point. I don't know where the other sites are getting their numbers but...

I always trust 2 sources: NFL.com (and your first link is from HoustonTexans.com, not NFL.com; my link is from NFL.com) and ProFootballReference.com.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BarwCo99.htm

Both of the sources I trust say 4.5. So. I'm going 4.5.

And, for a game by game breakdown (again, this is from NFL.com):

http://www.nfl.com/players/gamelogs?id=BAR811942

This shows him getting sacks against the Bengals, Colts, Rams, Patriots, and a half-sack against the Jags. The only sack I remember offhand is the one against the Bengals. But I could check all the games to make sure.

2slik4u
04-15-2010, 09:10 PM
Yeah, I don't disagree with your point. I don't know where the other sites are getting their numbers but...

I always trust 2 sources: NFL.com (and your first link is from HoustonTexans.com, not NFL.com; my link is from NFL.com) and ProFootballReference.com.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BarwCo99.htm

Both of the sources I trust say 4.5. So. I'm going 4.5.

And, for a game by game breakdown (again, this is from NFL.com):

http://www.nfl.com/players/gamelogs?id=BAR811942

This shows him getting sacks against the Bengals, Colts, Rams, Patriots, and a half-sack against the Jags. The only sack I remember offhand is the one against the Bengals. But I could check all the games to make sure.

Word. 4.5 it is! Hes one sack better (maybe?) than I thought.

Rep my friend.

CloakNNNdagger
04-15-2010, 09:10 PM
Too early to call Okoye a bust. The kids what... 22 years old. Has he lived up to the 1.10? No, but you can't expect a kid (basically right out of high school) to be an impact player in the NFL in his first couple years.
He didn't even start playing football until he was a sophmore in HS and up to that point really knew nothing about the game. We'll know more in a couple years.

I thought Barwin was good pick, great motor guy. He's looks like he's gonna be a good one.


If you remember, we were sold a pretty nice bill of goods after Okoye was chosen. When do you choose a "developmental" player at the 10th overall pick of the draft? When do you choose at the 10th overal pick of the draft without having chosen a player expected to make a significant IMMEDIATE impact? I can tell you when..............When you've made a MISTAKE.........a BIG MISTAKE!

JB
04-15-2010, 09:15 PM
If you remember, we were sold a pretty nice bill of goods after Okoye was chosen. When do you choose a "developmental" player at the 10th overall pick of the draft? When do you choose at the 10th overal pick of the draft without having chosen a player expected to make a significant IMMEDIATE impact? I can tell you when..............When you've made a MISTAKE.........a BIG MISTAKE!


I think in this instance they might have been burned by their draft board. They had Okoye rated as a top 5 pick, and when they feel to him they had to take him.

2slik4u
04-15-2010, 09:24 PM
I think in this instance they might have been burned by their draft board. They had Okoye rated as a top 5 pick, and when they feel to him they had to take him.

Thats an interesting point I never thought about. I just hope we get who we want (which is debateable), I want Wilson or Thomas, my buddy wants Matthews.

As long as we dont flop and pick anything other than a RB or CB, then I dont think we can go wrong.

Thomas is my numero uno.

JB
04-15-2010, 09:28 PM
Thats an interesting point I never thought about. I just hope we get who we want (which is debateable), I want Wilson or Thomas, my buddy wants Matthews.

As long as we dont flop and pick anything other than a RB or CB, then I dont think we can go wrong.

Thomas is my numero uno.

If we stay @ 20, I am hoping Thomas is there. If not I hope we can get Wilson or McCourty in the first and Ben Tate in the 2nd

Lucky
04-15-2010, 10:18 PM
This shows him getting sacks against the Bengals, Colts, Rams, Patriots, and a half-sack against the Jags. The only sack I remember offhand is the one against the Bengals. But I could check all the games to make sure.
I remember Barwin sacking Brady, who then started jawing with the rookie. Hey Tom, you're a Super Bowl MVP. Act like you've been sacked before and shrug it off.

And I can't forget Manning taking a dive right before Barwin could lay into him. So weak. I don't care if Manning is the greatest ever (debatable). That was weak.

b0ng
04-15-2010, 10:26 PM
And I can't forget Manning taking a dive right before Barwin could lay into him. So weak. I don't care if Manning is the greatest ever (debatable). That was weak.

But pretty much that's what keeps Manning healthy. He's smart enough to know when the play is busted and to fall down. If he's keeping himself out of some huge DE's crosshairs, and can still propel his team to wins I'm not having a problem with how he does business on the field.

Norg
04-15-2010, 10:48 PM
Quick thoughts



1/10 (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye Defensive tackle Louisville -this would be is post senior year lets see how he does this year
4/123 (from New Orleans) Fred Bennett Cornerback South Carolina
6/183 Kasey Studdard Offensive guard Texas
7/218 Zac Diles Linebacker Kansas State --all 3 solid picks IMO



3/79 Antwaun Molden Cornerback Eastern Kentucky
4/118 Xavier Adibi Linebacker Virginia Tech
5/151 Frank Okam Defensive tackle Texas
6/173 (from Baltimore) Dominique Barber Safety Minnesota
7/223 Alex Brink Quarterback Washington Stateok yeah this yeah was iffy AM is a soild depth IMO but frank Baber and Brink were WTF PICKS


1/15 Brian Cushing Linebacker Southern California
2/46 Connor Barwin Defensive end Cincinnati
3/77 Antoine Caldwell Center Alabama
4/112 Glover Quin Cornerback New Mexico
4/122 (from Minnesota) Anthony Hill Tight end North Carolina State
5/152 James Casey Tight end Rice (Depth)
6/188 Brice McCain Cornerback Utah (Depth)
7/223 Troy Nolan Safety Arizona State (who?)the only thing i dont like about this was the James casey pick it seemed like a politcal pick other then that your right who is troy nolan ???? but hey hes a 7th rounder

The Pencil Neck
04-15-2010, 11:28 PM
I remember Barwin sacking Brady, who then started jawing with the rookie. Hey Tom, you're a Super Bowl MVP. Act like you've been sacked before and shrug it off.

And I can't forget Manning taking a dive right before Barwin could lay into him. So weak. I don't care if Manning is the greatest ever (debatable). That was weak.

Good point. Now I definitely remember the Patriot sack. That was pretty priceless seeing Brady starting to jaw with a rookie.

But I haven't re-watched the Colts games, yet. I probably won't watch those until closer to training camp because... well... the whole losing part is still too painful.

J_R
04-16-2010, 12:13 AM
2007:
1/10 (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye Defensive tackle Louisville - I'll go ahead and say it, I think he's a bust. Others are willing to give him more time; others now say bring in someone else to help Okoye fill in his potential(didn't we bring him in to help Mario? Yeahhh....not so much)
3/73 Jacoby Jones Wide receiver Lane - Decent 3rd WR. Has some maturing to do imo
4/123 (from New Orleans) Fred Bennett Cornerback South Carolina - 2nd coming of Petey Faggins
5/144 Brandon Harrison Safety Stanford - No longer on the team
5/163 (from New Orleans) Brandon Frye Offensive tackle Virginia Tech - No longer on the team
6/183 Kasey Studdard Offensive guard Texas - depth guy, shouldn't be starting.
7/218 Zac Diles Linebacker Kansas State - Considering he was/is a 7th round pick, he's been decent. Not irreplaceable though.

2008:
1/26 (from Baltimore) Duane Brown Offensive tackle Virginia Tech - not as high on him as most probably are. Much to be desired thus far imo
3/79 Antwaun Molden Cornerback Eastern Kentucky - the Bennie Joppru of CBs
3/89 (from Baltimore) Steve Slaton Running back West Virginia - One good year, remains to be seen what he does from here on out. May not be looked at by some as nothing more than what many thought he was - a 3rd down back
4/118 Xavier Adibi Linebacker Virginia Tech - Depth guy/STer
5/151 Frank Okam Defensive tackle Texas - Has done much of nothing.
6/173 (from Baltimore) Dominique Barber Safety Minnesota - Has been ok. Probably a backup on this team.
7/223 Alex Brink Quarterback Washington State - no longer on the team.

2009:
1/15 Brian Cushing Linebacker Southern California - Great pick.
2/46 Connor Barwin Defensive end Cincinnati - Was decent in his rookie year. Some see him as a project, others already expecting big things this upcoming year.
3/77 Antoine Caldwell Center Alabama - depth/situational guy for the most part last year. Hopefully can put things together and take over at RG sooner rather than later.
4/112 Glover Quin Cornerback New Mexico - Good year. You hope he doesnt fall off like Freddie Bennett
4/122 (from Minnesota) Anthony Hill Tight end North Carolina State - 2nd coming of Bennie Joppru? Much to be desired from him.
5/152 James Casey Tight end Rice - situational backup guy last year. Nice depth guy
6/188 Brice McCain Cornerback Utah - Nice 3rd or 4th CB. I however don't see him as a starter
7/223 Troy Nolan Safety Arizona State - TBD. Placed on injured reserve last year.

ObsiWan
04-16-2010, 01:10 AM
As someone said a couple of pages back, Matt Schaub was acquired with two 2nd round picks. IMO, he's part of the draft evaluation because we used picks to get him.

Or would you rather have two unknowns with those two picks instead of Schaub?

HuttoKarl
04-16-2010, 09:06 AM
How many Pro-Bowlers have the Colts drafted in the past five years?

dc_txtech
04-16-2010, 11:15 AM
Good point. Now I definitely remember the Patriot sack. That was pretty priceless seeing Brady starting to jaw with a rookie.

But I haven't re-watched the Colts games, yet. I probably won't watch those until closer to training camp because... well... the whole losing part is still too painful.

I just re-watched this game a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure when or if the sack came but it wasn't on the play where Brady started jawing at Connor. On that play Brady had already gotten rid of the ball when Barwin pushed him. That's what he was upset about, he thought the shove came late and wanted a flag.

Goatcheese
04-16-2010, 11:22 AM
Word. 4.5 it is! Hes one sack better (maybe?) than I thought.

Rep my friend.

Don't forget the intentional grounding he forced against SEA and didn't get credit for. That's just as good as a sack.

The Pencil Neck
04-16-2010, 11:26 AM
I just re-watched this game a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure when or if the sack came but it wasn't on the play where Brady started jawing at Connor. On that play Brady had already gotten rid of the ball when Barwin pushed him. That's what he was upset about, he thought the shove came late and wanted a flag.

Yep. You're right.

So I went back and checked the play-by-play on NFL and then pulled up the game. The play starts at 1:56 at the end of the first half. Hoyer is the QB.

Connor got around the tackle and got Hoyer's feet. Cushing blitzed and took Hoyer high. I can see where this sack could have gone either way. NFL awarded it to Barwin and the other stat places probably awarded it to Cushing which is probably why Barwin shows up with 3.5 on some sites. When I first saw this play, I thought it was a Cushing sack. It probably should have been a half sack to each.

gtexan02
04-16-2010, 12:25 PM
Why are people so hard on the diles? The guy was a 7th rounder who has turned out to be a very reliable starter in a very good linebacking corp. Any 7th rounder who makes himself an everydown player should be considered a big, big success

Section516
04-16-2010, 12:36 PM
Why are people so hard on the diles? The guy was a 7th rounder who has turned out to be a very reliable starter in a very good linebacking corp. Any 7th rounder who makes himself an everydown player should be considered a big, big success

I think its because of who he plays around. If he was on a Cushing/Ryans level of play...Imagine THAT group of LB.

Great LB's take over games. :wild:

2slik4u
04-16-2010, 12:48 PM
Why are people so hard on the diles? The guy was a 7th rounder who has turned out to be a very reliable starter in a very good linebacking corp. Any 7th rounder who makes himself an everydown player should be considered a big, big success

Dude, thank you for saying that. He is an unsung hero on our defense. A seventh rounder that not only is an every down starter but also does his job and keeps his mouth shut is definately a success in my opinion.

b0ng
04-16-2010, 12:53 PM
Why are people so hard on the diles? The guy was a 7th rounder who has turned out to be a very reliable starter in a very good linebacking corp. Any 7th rounder who makes himself an everydown player should be considered a big, big success

People see him "not being Demeco Ryans" on the field and think he's a scrub. People are also kind of dumb.

HOU-TEX
04-16-2010, 01:18 PM
Why are people so hard on the diles? The guy was a 7th rounder who has turned out to be a very reliable starter in a very good linebacking corp. Any 7th rounder who makes himself an everydown player should be considered a big, big success

Dude, thank you for saying that. He is an unsung hero on our defense. A seventh rounder that not only is an every down starter but also does his job and keeps his mouth shut is definately a success in my opinion.

I agree with the both of y'all and I've been on Diles' side for a while now. Additionally, his time on the field is probably half of what Cush and D-Ryans see. Diles comes off the field in nickel/dime situations. I don't think he plays at all in the Colts games, other than ST's.

I like him and hope he continues to win the WILL position

threetoedpete
04-16-2010, 01:21 PM
People see him "not being Demeco Ryans" on the field and think he's a scrub. People are also kind of dumb.

They do the same thing with David Anderson. I was pretty impressed last year when I saw the DC of New England scheming to shut down DA's third down targets. I took that as a very high complement. Not many people scheming to shut down your #5 third down slot guy. And while no one was watching Joel Driesen grew up.

Section516
04-16-2010, 01:24 PM
I agree with the both of y'all and I've been on Diles' side for a while now. Additionally, his time on the field is probably half of what Cush and D-Ryans see. Diles comes off the field in nickel/dime situations. I don't think he plays at all in the Colts games, other than ST's.

I like him and hope he continues to win the WILL position

Which is what i was trying to say =P Its just because of who he plays around. Like OD/KW with AJ.

The Pencil Neck
04-16-2010, 01:46 PM
Diles and Anderson were both very, very good picks.

HOU-TEX
04-16-2010, 01:48 PM
Diles and Anderson were both very, very good picks.

Yessir, they have.

Pocky
04-16-2010, 10:10 PM
Again, dumb thread (http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft_slide_2.html?thisspeed=25000)
agreed.

To sum up the OP's thoughts:

He thinks Jacoby Jones will be out of the league soon after a breakout season.

He thinks Zac Diles is Morlon Greenwood V.2.

He's comparing the 2005 draft to the 2007 just because they both had the Texans taking a DT first a LB last. Otherwise, I don't see much of a comparison.

One draft class got us 4 contributors to our recent 9-7 squad, 3 of whom were starters, compare to a draft class in which nearly all the draftees are out of the league. That lone draftee survivor is also on the brink of being the same boat as the rest of his class.

Goldensilence
04-18-2010, 06:00 PM
agreed.

To sum up the OP's thoughts:

He thinks Jacoby Jones will be out of the league soon after a breakout season.

He thinks Zac Diles is Morlon Greenwood V.2.

He's comparing the 2005 draft to the 2007 just because they both had the Texans taking a DT first a LB last. Otherwise, I don't see much of a comparison.

One draft class got us 4 contributors to our recent 9-7 squad, 3 of whom were starters, compare to a draft class in which nearly all the draftees are out of the league. That lone draftee survivor is also on the brink of being the same boat as the rest of his class.

Disagree on the OP's point about the thread.

I think his point is that we hear so much about the team's commitment to building through the draft, and only getting about mediocre results with an emphasis on mixed top picks. When that is your primary avenue for building your team when you miss on a pick it means a lot more than a team that is a bigger player in FA.