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Mr. White
12-10-2009, 08:32 AM
What has he shown you that warrants another year?

What will be different next year?

I'd prefer something empirical. Something measurable.

MannyFresh
12-10-2009, 08:43 AM
And don't bring up Jeff Fisher's coach start/record either!!!! I curious to see what the Kubiak homers have to say.

Stemp
12-10-2009, 09:08 AM
What makes the "Fire Kubiak" crowd think that bringing in a new coach is going to mean a more successful team? What is plaguing Kubiak will plague the next coach just as much: Not enough playmakers on Defense, especially the secondary and players failing to make plays. I honestly think Kubiak has the team in a position to win every week, but the players just are not executing as well as they should. A new coach won't guarantee more success and most likely will mean a step backward, at least for a season or two. Are you really to endure/invest 2 more seasons of no playoffs to try someone new that may or may not pan out?

Runner
12-10-2009, 09:11 AM
How about from a non-supporter?

1) He has made marked improvement in the team's roster. I think he has had some big misses in a few people he's picked up and missed some opportunities, but this is a team that is talented enough to win. I credit Kubiak at least as much as Rick Smith in this.

2) His ability to lead and inspire is clear. This was especially true the first three seasons, although I think continued mediocrity in the final accounting each season may be reducing this admittedly unmeasurable quality for this particular team. This is one reason I think he may find more personal success if he moves on to his next opportunity.

3) He has raised the level of play that we see during the good times. That has been counteracted by the fact that the bad play is just as bad as it has always been, and that is with superior talent. However, further improvement may be found in correcting mistakes (his as well as the players). It is probably easier to correct mistakes than build new good stuff. I question whether Kubiak has the flexibility of thought to correct the mistakes though. His sticking with the script on game days is a manifestation of his whole approach to coaching, IMO.

I've ended up mixing some of his good qualities with what counters them, but the good qualities exist. I personally don't think he can reach the next level with the Texans at this time, although he might become a great coach.

I also believe he'll be here for his fifth season.

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 09:15 AM
What makes the "Fire Kubiak" crowd think that bringing in a new coach is going to mean a more successful team? What is plaguing Kubiak will plague the next coach just as much: Not enough playmakers on Defense, especially the secondary and players failing to make plays. I honestly think Kubiak has the team in a position to win every week, but the players just are not executing as well as they should. A new coach won't guarantee more success and most likely will mean a step backward, at least for a season or two. Are you really to endure/invest 2 more seasons of no playoffs to try someone new that may or may not pan out?

That really wasn't what I was looking for. If you want to argue the other side's logic, then there are a ton of other threads to choose from.

Not to mention you're speaking in hypotheticals. I'm looking for concrete reasons why he should keep his job.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2009, 09:16 AM
What makes the "Fire Kubiak" crowd think that bringing in a new coach is going to mean a more successful team? What is plaguing Kubiak will plague the next coach just as much: Not enough playmakers on Defense, especially the secondary and players failing to make plays. I honestly think Kubiak has the team in a position to win every week, but the players just are not executing as well as they should. A new coach won't guarantee more success and most likely will mean a step backward, at least for a season or two. Are you really to endure/invest 2 more seasons of no playoffs to try someone new that may or may not pan out?

You basically missed the point of the thread. Your paragraph had nothing but assumptions. There is no rule that teams take 2 steps backward. In fact many teams move forward as shown in Atlanta, Miami, etc. That is a made up rule that just isn't true anymore. Secondly, players not executing is on the coach. Either they don't have the discipline for it or they aren't taught right in practice. I'll keep brining this up in every thread but the most credible thing I've heard was Bill Maas on the radio the other day. The Chiefs used to be the Texans until Marty S got there. He said the day he got there, they got better because they were disciplined in areas they didn't even realize they needed. I think it is dead on here. If a mistake is made once in awhile, chalk it up to a player. If a mistake is a constant over 3 years, chalk it up to coaching and not being coached up right.

That really wasn't what I was looking for. If you want to argue the other side's logic, then there are a ton of other threads to choose from.

Not to mention you're speaking in hypotheticals. I'm looking for concrete reasons why he should keep his job.

Great minds........

HOU-TEX
12-10-2009, 09:16 AM
How about from a non-supporter?

1) He has made marked improvement in the team's roster. I think he has had some big misses in a few people he's picked up and missed some opportunities, but this is a team that is talented enough to win. I credit Kubiak at least as much as Rick Smith in this.

2) His ability to lead and inspire is clear. This was especially true the first three seasons, although I think continued mediocrity in the final accounting each season may be reducing this admittedly unmeasurable quality for this particular team. This is one reason I think he may find more personal success if he moves on to his next opportunity.

3) He has raised the level of play that we see during the good times. That has been counteracted by the fact that the bad play is just as bad as it has always been, and that is with superior talent. However, further improvement may be found in correcting mistakes (his as well as the players). It is probably easier to correct mistakes than build new good stuff. I question whether Kubiak has the flexibility of thought to correct the mistakes though. His sticking with the script on games days is a manifestation of his whole approach to coaching, IMO.

I've ended up mixing some of his good qualities with what counters them, but the good qualities exist. I personally don't think he can reach the next level with the Texans at this time, although he might become a great coach.

I also believe he'll be here for his fifth season.

QFT! I couldn't agree more, Runner. You said it better than I ever could.

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 09:20 AM
What makes the "Fire Kubiak" crowd think that bringing in a new coach is going to mean a more successful team? What is plaguing Kubiak will plague the next coach just as much: Not enough playmakers on Defense, especially the secondary and players failing to make plays. I honestly think Kubiak has the team in a position to win every week, but the players just are not executing as well as they should. A new coach won't guarantee more success and most likely will mean a step backward, at least for a season or two. Are you really to endure/invest 2 more seasons of no playoffs to try someone new that may or may not pan out?

None of this is an argument for Kubiak as is an argument against change and why he has not completed a task that should be expected in four years: one above .500 and/or playoffs wins.

What is Kubiak specifically doing well?

Runner
12-10-2009, 09:23 AM
What makes the "Fire Kubiak" crowd think that bringing in a new coach is going to mean a more successful team? What is plaguing Kubiak will plague the next coach just as much: Not enough playmakers on Defense, especially the secondary and players failing to make plays. I honestly think Kubiak has the team in a position to win every week, but the players just are not executing as well as they should. A new coach won't guarantee more success and most likely will mean a step backward, at least for a season or two. Are you really to endure/invest 2 more seasons of no playoffs to try someone new that may or may not pan out?

Is it out of the question to think a new coach, with different strengths and weaknesses, might correct some of the long running problems with this team while building on the foundation Kubiak has put in place?

I would like to see this thread stick to the original topic. Why might Kubiak succeed if he is kept a fifth year? (I already know I'll be disappointed in this).

Can I ask that the "my side is better than your side" rhetoric be put in all the other threads dedicated go that topic? I'll even participate!

Runner
12-10-2009, 09:39 AM
QFT! I couldn't agree more, Runner. You said it better than I ever could.

Thanks, although I didn't think the "than build new good stuff" part was particularly well phrased. :)

HOU-TEX
12-10-2009, 09:42 AM
Thanks, although I didn't think the "than build new good stuff" part was particularly well phrased. :)

Which is probably still phrased better than what HOU-TEX could do.

Stemp
12-10-2009, 09:44 AM
None of this is an argument for Kubiak as is an argument against change and why he has not completed a task that should be expected in four years: one above .500 and/or playoffs wins.

What is Kubiak specifically doing well?

The overall question is "why should he stay". My point was bringing in a new coach isn't going to guarantee success.
Look at the Raiders since 2003, 4 coaching changes, zero winning seasons. Look at the 49ers since 2003, 3 different coaches zero winning seasons. Look at the Bills since 2000, they've had 1 winning season with 3 different coaches. Seattle isn't doing well with Mora. People pointed to Atlanta and Miami as bad teams that got much better with the new coach. Are they the exception or the norm? Atlanta and Miami both had an 11-5 records last year yes. But what about so far this year? Both are 6-6. When Miami got Saban, they went 9-7 and the 6-10 the year after. Atlanta got Mora in 2004 and went 11-5 then 8-8 then 7-9.Shoot, Tom Landry had 6 losing seasons before a winning season for our friends up 45 N. .

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 09:47 AM
The overall question is "why should he stay". My point was bringing in a new coach isn't going to guarantee success.

The topic doesn't have anything to do with any other hypothetical coach.

I want to know what makes Kubiak such a good coach that he deserves another year.

Cjeremy635
12-10-2009, 09:52 AM
The overall question is "why should he stay". My point was bringing in a new coach isn't going to guarantee success.
Look at the Raiders since 2003, 4 coaching changes, zero winning seasons. Look at the 49ers since 2003, 3 different coaches zero winning seasons. Look at the Bills since 2000, they've had 1 winning season with 3 different coaches. Seattle isn't doing well with Mora. People pointed to Atlanta and Miami as bad teams that got much better with the new coach. Are they the exception or the norm? Atlanta and Miami both had an 11-5 records last year yes. But what about so far this year? Both are 6-6. When Miami got Saban, they went 9-7 and the 6-10 the year after. Atlanta got Mora in 2004 and went 11-5 then 8-8 then 7-9.Shoot, Tom Landry had 6 losing seasons before a winning season for our friends up 45 N. .

This is more how I look at it too. I see the marked improvements that he has made and I look at the % of success if we bring in someone new. If you could guarantee me that a new coach would equal playoffs, I'd be fine with a change, right this minute. But the fact of the matter is, there are coaching changes every year and they don't all equate to an immediate winning season or playoffs.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2009, 10:00 AM
The overall question is "why should he stay". My point was bringing in a new coach isn't going to guarantee success.
Look at the Raiders since 2003, 4 coaching changes, zero winning seasons. Look at the 49ers since 2003, 3 different coaches zero winning seasons. Look at the Bills since 2000, they've had 1 winning season with 3 different coaches. Seattle isn't doing well with Mora. People pointed to Atlanta and Miami as bad teams that got much better with the new coach. Are they the exception or the norm? Atlanta and Miami both had an 11-5 records last year yes. But what about so far this year? Both are 6-6. When Miami got Saban, they went 9-7 and the 6-10 the year after. Atlanta got Mora in 2004 and went 11-5 then 8-8 then 7-9.Shoot, Tom Landry had 6 losing seasons before a winning season for our friends up 45 N. .

Both Atlanta and Miami made drastic jumps and are still in the playoff hunt despite horrible injuries on both teams. Miami still has a shot at their division with the Pats in it. The Landry thing doesn't fly. For every Landry there are 20 Wannstedts.

Cjeremy635
12-10-2009, 10:00 AM
The topic doesn't have anything to do with any other hypothetical coach.
I want to know what makes Kubiak such a good coach that he deserves another year.

That's BS. It has everything to do with a new "hypothetical coach" because if you are thinking about firing him, you have to be thinking about replacing him with someone who you think will be more successful than him with what we currently have in place...to win now. The current group wanting him fired is pissed because we are not going to the playoffs. You want it now.....which I would imagine every fan of this team wants the playoffs right now too. So to not imagine another coach, using the existing personel (which is going to be the fastest way to get to the playoffs), would not fit into the "WIN NOW" concept that is pushing for this dude to get fired.

spurstexanstros
12-10-2009, 10:01 AM
The team is getting better and better each year...the bad thing is the losses are more heartbreaking because the team is getting better and better.


I would take this team under Kubiak over any under Capers. Kubiak drafting skills are very good....last year's second round being the exception.

Silver Oak
12-10-2009, 10:01 AM
What has he shown you that warrants another year?

What will be different next year?

I'd prefer something empirical. Something measurable.

nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:

-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide

-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the NFL from #27 when he arrived here

-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall

-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. a vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team MB's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.

-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints

Cjeremy635
12-10-2009, 10:03 AM
nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:

-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide

-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the nfl from #27 when he arrived here

-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall

-not as empirical as you may prefer, but i don not believe there is a team in the league that sees houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. A vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team mb's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.

-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints


qft!

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 10:07 AM
The overall question is "why should he stay". My point was bringing in a new coach isn't going to guarantee success.
Look at the Raiders since 2003, 4 coaching changes, zero winning seasons. Look at the 49ers since 2003, 3 different coaches zero winning seasons. Look at the Bills since 2000, they've had 1 winning season with 3 different coaches. Seattle isn't doing well with Mora. People pointed to Atlanta and Miami as bad teams that got much better with the new coach. Are they the exception or the norm? Atlanta and Miami both had an 11-5 records last year yes. But what about so far this year? Both are 6-6. When Miami got Saban, they went 9-7 and the 6-10 the year after. Atlanta got Mora in 2004 and went 11-5 then 8-8 then 7-9.Shoot, Tom Landry had 6 losing seasons before a winning season for our friends up 45 N. .

So you can't tell me why Kubiak deserves to stay based on the job he is doing.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 10:08 AM
We should keep him, because getting trounced in our division never
looked so good. Next season will look better, because we won't get
4 division games in a row, so we'll be able to pepper in those division
losses. Kubiak has gotten us to finish 6-4, 7-3, and we are now 4-2
against everyone NOT in the AFC South.

Who cares about the division anyway... It's only six games (which count
60% towards our conference record)!

Ryan
12-10-2009, 10:14 AM
-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win.



I disagree.

Signed,

The Indianapolis Colts.

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 10:15 AM
That's BS. It has everything to do with a new "hypothetical coach" because if you are thinking about firing him, you have to be thinking about replacing him with someone who you think will be more successful than him with what we currently have in place...to win now. The current group wanting him fired is pissed because we are not going to the playoffs. You want it now.....which I would imagine every fan of this team wants the playoffs right now too. So to not imagine another coach, using the existing personel (which is going to be the fastest way to get to the playoffs), would not fit into the "WIN NOW" concept that is pushing for this dude to get fired.

How is it BS? I'm the one asking the question here. If it doesn't get answered, then what's BS about that? Isn't that for me to say?

We should have kept Capers with this logic.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 10:17 AM
How is it BS? I'm the one asking the question here. If it doesn't get answered, then what's BS about that? Isn't that for me to say?

We should have kept Capers with this logic.

Jeff Fisher DID go 3-13 the year before they drafted VY, so......
We should have kept Capers.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 10:21 AM
-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win.

I disagree.

Signed,

The Indianapolis Colts.

Hey, now. Those wins weren't automatic... But your meltdowns
in the 4th quarter DEFINITELY were!!

Added,

The Jacksonville Jaguars.

Runner
12-10-2009, 10:25 AM
The overall question is "why should he stay". My point was bringing in a new coach isn't going to guarantee success.
Look at the Raiders since 2003, 4 coaching changes, zero winning seasons. Look at the 49ers since 2003, 3 different coaches zero winning seasons. Look at the Bills since 2000, they've had 1 winning season with 3 different coaches. Seattle isn't doing well with Mora. People pointed to Atlanta and Miami as bad teams that got much better with the new coach. Are they the exception or the norm? Atlanta and Miami both had an 11-5 records last year yes. But what about so far this year? Both are 6-6. When Miami got Saban, they went 9-7 and the 6-10 the year after. Atlanta got Mora in 2004 and went 11-5 then 8-8 then 7-9.Shoot, Tom Landry had 6 losing seasons before a winning season for our friends up 45 N. .

So you can't tell me why Kubiak deserves to stay based on the job he is doing.

That's what I got out of it too.

And I thought my list of reasons was a little sparse and didn't do him justce.

houstonspartan
12-10-2009, 10:29 AM
The team is getting better and better each year...the bad thing is the losses are more heartbreaking because the team is getting better and better.


I would take this team under Kubiak over any under Capers. Kubiak drafting skills are very good....last year's second round being the exception.

So where are all the W's, genius?

And, people, please stop brining up Dom Capers. That was a lifetime ago, and we all agree that the team was a disaster back then. Let's focus on KUBIAK.

Texanmike02
12-10-2009, 10:29 AM
So you can't tell me why Kubiak deserves to stay based on the job he is doing.

I don't think you should make the decision on "deserves". The question should be framed, "What do you think is the best move for the franchise." this isn't about Kubiak, as a person, its about the position of head coach. It is about how to get the most productivity both next year and beyond.

Mike

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 10:30 AM
So almost 30 replies and 2 of them actually stuck to the question.

How about from a non-supporter?

1) He has made marked improvement in the team's roster. I think he has had some big misses in a few people he's picked up and missed some opportunities, but this is a team that is talented enough to win. I credit Kubiak at least as much as Rick Smith in this.

2) His ability to lead and inspire is clear. This was especially true the first three seasons, although I think continued mediocrity in the final accounting each season may be reducing this admittedly unmeasurable quality for this particular team. This is one reason I think he may find more personal success if he moves on to his next opportunity.

3) He has raised the level of play that we see during the good times. That has been counteracted by the fact that the bad play is just as bad as it has always been, and that is with superior talent. However, further improvement may be found in correcting mistakes (his as well as the players). It is probably easier to correct mistakes than build new good stuff. I question whether Kubiak has the flexibility of thought to correct the mistakes though. His sticking with the script on game days is a manifestation of his whole approach to coaching, IMO.

I've ended up mixing some of his good qualities with what counters them, but the good qualities exist. I personally don't think he can reach the next level with the Texans at this time, although he might become a great coach.

I also believe he'll be here for his fifth season.

nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:

-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide

-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the NFL from #27 when he arrived here

-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall

-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. a vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team MB's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.

-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints

Does anyone have anything to add to this?

houstonspartan
12-10-2009, 10:31 AM
I disagree.

Signed,

The Indianapolis Colts.

Exactly.

For some reason, people on here don't care about the division record.

Stemp
12-10-2009, 10:36 AM
How is it BS? I'm the one asking the question here. If it doesn't get answered, then what's BS about that? Isn't that for me to say?

We should have kept Capers with this logic.

Because it's only half the question. The other half is, can we find and be able to hire someone in who can do a better job and bring success. If there isn't someone who can do it better, then it's better to give another season than have the franchise regress.

There were tons of better coaches than Capers available and Kubiak IS much better than him. The question is, can we find and GET someone better than Kubiak?

Cjeremy635
12-10-2009, 10:44 AM
Because it's only half the question. The other half is, can we find and be able to hire someone in who can do a better job and bring success. If there isn't someone who can do it better, then it's better to give another season than have the franchise regress.

That's it in a nutshell for me. If we make a change and go 4-12 or 6-10 next year, how pissed off would you be Mr. White? Those hoping for a change are doing so because you assume it would equate to immediate improvements. And it better, becuase if not, what's the point in making a change that big? I'm not for a change because I do not see a candidate on the market that I think is going to be able to do a better job than what we currently have. It's not like Kubes has screwed us up here, and you have to admit that we are a better team than before he got here. If you are willing to give a new coach a year or two to get us over the hump, then why not give the current coach another year to see if we can improve? I would feel different if we were like the Lions or the Bills, but we aren't. We have a good core of talented players and coaches. I also like the fact that our owner is more of the stability type and would prefer to have a coacing staff with a long tenure within his franchise. I honestly think that is the winning combination and will equal success for years to come vs. a one and done type of run.

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 10:47 AM
Because it's only half the question. The other half is, can we find and be able to hire someone in who can do a better job and bring success. If there isn't someone who can do it better, then it's better to give another season than have the franchise regress.

There were tons of better coaches than Capers available and Kubiak IS much better than him. The question is, can we find and GET someone better than Kubiak?

The problem is that I'm not interested in the other half of the question. If I were, then I'd go to another thread where we talk about all the other hypothetical coaches behind Door #2.

Those have been done to death and I'm interested in other aspects of the debate now.

This thread's about the guy we have now.

BigBull17
12-10-2009, 10:47 AM
I disagree.

Signed,

The Indianapolis Colts.

And Tennesse Titans. And this year Jacksonville Jaguars.

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 10:57 AM
I don't think you should make the decision on "deserves". The question should be framed, "What do you think is the best move for the franchise." this isn't about Kubiak, as a person, its about the position of head coach. It is about how to get the most productivity both next year and beyond.

Mike

To know what "best move for the franchise ," you need to know what are the strenghts and weakness of the administration. You can't figure where you need to go if you don't know where you are currently.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 10:57 AM
I'll disclaimer my devil's advocate reply with my own feelings that I think McNair will keep Kubiak through 2010 and I do not think the coach deserves it.

That being said, I can understand some of the pro-Kubiak crowd, even in disagreement.

-----------------------------------------

The offense has improved, but player mistakes and lack of depth are preventing it from being consistent week in/week out. These guys get paid a lot of money to catch balls and hold on when carrying the ball, and I would venture that at the professional level, the individual player has more to do with these mistakes than coaches. As far as lack of depth, Kubiak was saddled with a roster full of players that mostly faded away when cut, as well as a wicked salary cap situation from Casserly's blunders that prevented Kubiak/Smith from acquiring players much more quickly.

With more experienced players and more depth on the roster, our offense could be a consistent force to be reckoned with. The offense - with the exception of glaring mistakes - is THE main thrust of any legit argument to be made for keeping Kubiak, IMO.

Kubiak's in-game coaching mistakes should be a learning experiences. (I do have to disclaimer this by saying it does not appear to me that he is actually learning from his mistakes, but the argument could be made that he should be learning from them.)

Kubiak gets decent grades on his drafts. This is arguable, but it is clear that we seem to find more gems in later rounds than the previous regime. Although this is a 'glass half full' perspective, simply because there was nowhere to look but up after the disaster of Capers/Casserly. If they can retain the draft gems, then they are building through the draft and there is potential that the next draft will net the same results.

The players have another year in Kubiak's system. There is something to be said when you watch NFLN/ESPN and learn that other OCs are studying Kubiak's offense for ideas. It's a copy-cat league, so you have to give props to the original idea being copied. Will continuity and familiarity with this offense help our players next season? Stay tuned, because we'll find out.

First year DC has shown slight improvement in our defense. I feel like this is a stretch, but it is an argument that is being made. Like the point above, the logic is that another year of familiarity and another draft into the system could be a good thing.

-----------------------------------------

Now, I could counter every one of these points, but that's not what the OP requested in this thread. These are the pro-Kubiak points that I have heard and make some sort of sense, so I'm just posting as a devil's advocate in order to full comprehend why someone would want to give a mediocre head coach another year.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 10:58 AM
Because it's only half the question. The other half is, can we find and be able to hire someone in who can do a better job and bring success. If there isn't someone who can do it better, then it's better to give another season than have the franchise regress.

There were tons of better coaches than Capers available and Kubiak IS much better than him. The question is, can we find and GET someone better than Kubiak?

Kubiak is like the the girl that teases you on the phone, and when you invite
her over, gives every excuse to not drop draws. Sometimes, as a man,
you need to convince yourself that you CAN do better. Enough with
the teasin.'

As somebody said in another thread: "THIS year was the
'****-or-get-off-the-pot' year."

Cjeremy635
12-10-2009, 10:59 AM
The problem is that I'm not interested in the other half of the question. If I were, then I'd go to another thread where we talk about all the other hypothetical coaches behind Door #2.

Those have been done to death and I'm interested in other aspects of the debate now.

This thread's about the guy we have now.

I get it, you're pissed, but you don't have to be such a smart ass to the people posting in this thread. You asked a question and he answered it the way he saw fit. I don't think he was rude with his answers and I thought he answered it just fine and with a well thought out response. I'm done with this thread. The thruth of the matter is, you are going to be try to belittle anyone who does not agree with your agenda. Great, have fun with that. Maybe when you're done, you can go to McDonalds and pick a fight with the kids playing in the ball pit....I'm out.

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 11:03 AM
Because it's only half the question. The other half is, can we find and be able to hire someone in who can do a better job and bring success. If there isn't someone who can do it better, then it's better to give another season than have the franchise regress.

There were tons of better coaches than Capers available and Kubiak IS much better than him. The question is, can we find and GET someone better than Kubiak?

So why you can't answer one half of the question?

Again what is Kubiak doing well as the coach of the Houston Texans?

You have no way of saying who is better or not if not, if you can't even list out the strengths and weaknesses of what you have.

eriadoc
12-10-2009, 11:08 AM
Because in 2006, he had a crappy team. We drafted #1 overall, and he has built that team up from nothing. The Saints drafted #2 overall, the Titans drafted VY, and even the Jets drafted #4. Look what they've done.

Wait, what?

The '07 Falcons lost their starting QB (both of them, LOL) and won 4 games. They changed head coaches. Clearly, change is very disruptive.

Ooops, that doesn't work either. I'll keep trying. There has to be a Dolphins example in here somewhere.

Silver Oak
12-10-2009, 11:08 AM
think I'll bow out of these threads for a while myself. I answered your original question with facts and statistics, yet you chose to not address them at all.

have fun! :kitten:

spurstexanstros
12-10-2009, 11:14 AM
So where are all the W's, genius?

And, people, please stop brining up Dom Capers. That was a lifetime ago, and we all agree that the team was a disaster back then. Let's focus on KUBIAK.

Well who would you like me to compare him to? As I recall the Texans have had only two coaches...and no not a lifetime ago 4 years. I see the team making progress on offense and defense. That is a credit to the head coach...sure I am baffled by the play calling but look at it this way. Kubiak has put the team in the position to win it is up to the players to excecute.

In most of the losses the team was in the position to win but due to the failure of the players (and not the COACH) the team is where it is at now.

1st Jacksonville game (fumble)
Arizona game pic-6 and bad call
1st colts game missed FG
2nd titans game missed FG

So that is 4 games where the players messed it up. I give you the two bad games of Indy and Jacksonville during which Kubiak had some questionable strategies. However if the players would have excecuted in 4 out of the seven losses at crunch time then this would be a whole new ball of wax.

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 11:14 AM
think I'll bow out of these threads for a while myself. I answered your original question with facts and statistics, yet you chose to not address them at all.

have fun! :kitten:


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1321357&postcount=29

That's all I got for now. Maybe I'll address them when I see more answers that address the question.

Believe it or not, I'm not fishing for an argument here. I'm trying to understand the attachment.

Runner
12-10-2009, 11:18 AM
The problem is that I'm not interested in the other half of the question. If I were, then I'd go to another thread where we talk about all the other hypothetical coaches behind Door #2.

Those have been done to death and I'm interested in other aspects of the debate now.

This thread's about the guy we have now.

I get it, you're pissed, but you don't have to be such a smart ass to the people posting in this thread. You asked a question and he answered it the way he saw fit. I don't think he was rude with his answers and I thought he answered it just fine and with a well thought out response. I'm done with this thread. The thruth of the matter is, you are going to be try to belittle anyone who does not agree with your agenda. Great, have fun with that. Maybe when you're done, you can go to McDonalds and pick a fight with the kids playing in the ball pit....I'm out.

I don't think the two (now three) people who responded to the op feel belittled in any responses to those posts. I see anger and agenda coming from pro-Kubiak posters who don't bother with trying to participate in the thread's discussion point. Now we have the "because I said so" crap polluting this from both sides.

I find it ironic that two of the three posters who listed what they think Kubiak can bring to the table next year are not his supporters at all. At least we can see that point of view and can enumerate some of the arguments in its favor.

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 11:29 AM
I get it, you're pissed, but you don't have to be such a smart ass to the people posting in this thread. You asked a question and he answered it the way he saw fit. I don't think he was rude with his answers and I thought he answered it just fine and with a well thought out response. I'm done with this thread. The thruth of the matter is, you are going to be try to belittle anyone who does not agree with your agenda. Great, have fun with that. Maybe when you're done, you can go to McDonalds and pick a fight with the kids playing in the ball pit....I'm out.

Rude and belittling? What was this?

That's BS.

I'm just talking football. Looks like you're taking it personal.

The only agenda that I have is for my team to win more football games. I don't care who starts or sits, gets cut or fired or who sells the team to make that happen.

In the meantime, I'd like to understand the logic of the people that want to keep him around.

rollinstone18
12-10-2009, 11:41 AM
nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:

-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide

-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the NFL from #27 when he arrived here

-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall

-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. a vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team MB's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.

-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints

must spread rep...

BigBull17
12-10-2009, 12:12 PM
nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:

-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide

-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the NFL from #27 when he arrived here

-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall

-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. a vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team MB's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.

-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints

But, we have nothing to show for it but 2 straight 8-8 seasons. With a 3rd looming on the horrizon. You can't be content with that.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 12:23 PM
nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:

-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide

-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the NFL from #27 when he arrived here

-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall

-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. a vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team MB's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.

-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints
you must have been a big RnS fan. Offense can be entertaining but I've seen dozens and dozens of mediocre teams with good offenses over the years. After all that sunshine in your post, Kubiak has only managed to beat Capers best record by one win...in 3 years. For a guy who has brought the team so far he sure does have a crappy record.

Goldensilence
12-10-2009, 12:36 PM
For the Record I'm not a a fan of the idea of Gary Kubiak getting an extra year, so barring an 0-4 melt down (which Mike already said he's fine with) he'll likely get an extra year.


Gary has done a good job elevating an offense that could barely move under David Carr into a top 10 offense. Last year it finished #3 in the league. This year I think it's 6th or seventh.

He's done a good job in bringing in guys behind AJ and made a good WR Corps.

OD has turned from a 4th round former QB converted into a TE that has evolved into one of the best in the league that made the pro bowl last year. This year he w as looking at another pro bowl invite before injury.Granted I think Owen himself deserves a lot of credit for that.

I'm still left wondering after seeing some of the other quick turn around in the league, how much time and patience is bought by turning an 2-14 team into an 8-8 team?

Overall under Gary the play of the OL has improved pretty dramatically. He's cut the sack totals down to at last half of what they were under David Carr.

This year he finally got "his coach" at defensive coordinator who has gotten the defense into at least the mediocre range instead of pure crap. Last I saw they were like 17th I think overall.

Gary's done a pretty good job of turning the roster over and him and Rick have done a decent job in the draft. He's done a good job bargain shopping for McNair.


Overall I think Gary has done some good things for this franchise. I don't think the "anti" Kubiak crowd ignores them. I just think it's a matter of how much further can he take the team?

disaacks3
12-10-2009, 12:38 PM
nothing stated here will sway your opinion, but for the sake of argument, here's mine:

-elevated our offense from #28 in the league, to a top 10 offense league wide

-raised our passing offense up to #4 in the NFL from #27 when he arrived here

-improved total team defense from bottom 20%, up to top 50% at #16 overall

-not as empirical as you may prefer, but I don not believe there is a team in the league that sees Houston on the schedule and pencils it in as an automatic win. a vast improvement from 3 years ago...also, visit other team MB's and most all fans think we are on the verge of being a very good team.

-has identified, replaced, and purged the team of dead weight even while operating under financial constraints
Very good and valid points - and not stats for stats sake alone. I agree (with you & Bum Phillips) that we are on the verge of becoming a very good team. but...

To me the big question that remains is this:

Is Gary Kubiak the guy to get us OVER that hump?

IMHO - Given the Jekyll / Hyde of this team this team has shown from one half to the next in every game this year (w/ poss. exception of Bengals) one of two things must be true. Either: A) Kubiak & Co. performed miracles keepng us tied / ahead in games we had no business being in. or.. B) We are really as talented as we looked in the "good" half and the other half was so dreadfully coached, executed, etc. that it was painful to watch.

I love Kubiak, but I honestly have to say that it sure looks like the "B" option from here.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
Speaking of playing one GOOD HALF and one BAD HALF.

1st Half of 2009 Season:
5-3

2nd half of 2009 Season:
0-4 and counting..

They've been perfectly consistent with the good half/bad half ****.

barrett
12-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Kubiak is like the the girl that teases you on the phone, and when you invite
her over, gives every excuse to not drop draws. Sometimes, as a man,
you need to convince yourself that you CAN do better. Enough with
the teasin.'

Perhaps you should just pin her down and make her a winning coach.


I think it's always exciting to consider a new HC as an improvement. One thing that bringing in a new guy provides is a "reset" of sorts and I think that tends to give fans (who are very emotional) a new sense of hope and a willingness to forgive somethings because it's new.

It's harder as a fan to accept that more of the same could possibly be a better recipe for success.

I would argue this simple fact as a reason to continue forward with Kubiak:

He has improved this team every year and I see no reason to believe that won't continue to be the case. I know that's not a very sexy answer but it's a very good reason to keep him. He is not without fault, you could easily argue that no HC is. Even some that are considered to be "great" have made crucial mistakes costing their teams victories. But so long as this team continues to improve...

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 01:34 PM
I would argue this simple fact as a reason to continue forward with Kubiak:

He has improved this team every year and I see no reason to believe that won't continue to be the case. I know that's not a very sexy answer but it's a very good reason to keep him. He is not without fault, you could easily argue that no HC is. Even some that are considered to be "great" have made crucial mistakes costing their teams victories. But so long as this team continues to improve...

Do you really think that we've improved as a team since last year? If so, how?

eriadoc
12-10-2009, 02:00 PM
He has improved this team every year and I see no reason to believe that won't continue to be the case.

Vinny posted this in another thread, so I'll just paste it over here:

2009 - Week 13 - 5-7
2008 - Week 13 - 5-7
2007 - Week 13 - 5-7

2007: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2009: ???

So maybe you're right; maybe the team really has gotten better from year to year. If so, it sure as hell hasn't shown in the one category that matters. And I see no reason to believe that won't continue to be the case.

barrett
12-10-2009, 02:04 PM
Do you really think that we've improved as a team since last year? If so, how?

I do. I think our QB is much more comfortable in the system. I think our team is much more comfortable under adversity. (not comfortable enough but much improved) I think the defense is immensely improved. I think out depth is improved (not enough but considerably better). I think the DLine play has improved against the run 100%. I think our LB play is a top 5 group. Could you say that last year? I think our young CB's played a smarter, more sound brand of football than this team has ever had (except #23). I think as a unit we have an improved pass rush (you can talk sacks but I can also talk pressure). I think we have improved safety play 1000% (depth is clearly an issue still).

I would argue that of all the units on our team, only 3 have not improved. The running game the OLine and Kris Brown. You could argue that the OLine's lack of improvement / regression could be attributed to injury. You could argue that the run games regression could be attributed to the OLine's regression. (Although Slaton struggled regardless but his vision wasn't very good last year either).

Every other facet of this team has gotten better, including the coaching.

barrett
12-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Vinny posted this in another thread, so I'll just paste it over here:



2007: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2009: ???

So maybe you're right; maybe the team really has gotten better from year to year. If so, it sure as hell hasn't shown in the one category that matters. And I see no reason to believe that won't continue to be the case.

I knew that this would be the major rebuttal.

I can see that the record has not changed at this point in the season. I'm not blind to that. I would argue that overall the team has not performed at the level that it is capable. But it has improved. No one can deny that. Our record is what it is. But that doesn't mean that this team isn't better. It is. And as long as the team continues to improve then eventually the wins will follow. So long as the team continues to improve...

disaacks3
12-10-2009, 02:19 PM
I knew that this would be the major rebuttal.

I can see that the record has not changed at this point in the season. I'm not blind to that. I would argue that overall the team has not performed at the level that it is capable. But it has improved. No one can deny that. Our record is what it is. But that doesn't mean that this team isn't better. It is. And as long as the team continues to improve then eventually the wins will follow. So long as the team continues to improve...
At the end of the season, you are what your record says you are. When it's obvious that the talent has improved, but the record stays the same...who do you blame?

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 02:22 PM
The defense HAS improved, the offense has REGRESSED.
The talent HAS improved, the on-field discipline has REGRESSED.
The team has had LESS injuries, starters such as Slaton and Walter: REGRESS
The road record improves, the home record PLUMMETS

When you improve and regress at the same rate, what is your net gain?

Where is the NET GAIN in this regime? Please. Show it to me.

barrett
12-10-2009, 02:25 PM
At the end of the season, you are what your record says you are. When it's obvious that the talent has improved, but the record stays the same...who do you blame?

I don't think it's that simple. The talent has improved but they make several mistakes. They are young and talented. As the mistakes are reduced (which they have been every year) I think the games will continue to be more and more winnable. We have had an opportunity to win every single game this year except the first one. How is that not a sign of improvement?

HoustonFrog
12-10-2009, 02:25 PM
Vinny posted this in another thread, so I'll just paste it over here:



2007: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2009: ???

So maybe you're right; maybe the team really has gotten better from year to year. If so, it sure as hell hasn't shown in the one category that matters. And I see no reason to believe that won't continue to be the case.

The funny thing is that SilverOak actually gave us the biggest reason to fire him. All of what he said was true...offense, etc has all improved. Yet after 12 games for 3 years we have been 5-7 and in the last 2 ended up 8-8. So if there is more talent, improvments in stats...what would cause the downfall......coaching.

gtexan02
12-10-2009, 02:28 PM
Im not a Kubiak stay groupie, nor a fire Kubiak groupie, but somewhere undecided.
That being said, the argument for keeping is is really quite simple: Football is fun to watch in Houston.

We have an aggressive defense, we have a prolific offense, and we have some pretty good star power.

We've lost 7 games so far this season, but only 1 of them has been an ugly loss. We've had a chance to tie or win the game in the 4th quarter in 6 of those 7 losses (if memory serves me correctly).

I sit down at 1PM Est and know that Im going to see something exciting.

A few years ago, I sat down and was unsure if I was going to be embarassed. Im not embarassed anymore.

I watch football because I want to see close games and fun teams. Houston fits that category perfectly

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 02:31 PM
Im not a Kubiak stay groupie, nor a fire Kubiak groupie, but somewhere undecided.
That being said, the argument for keeping is is really quite simple: Football is fun to watch in Houston.

We have an aggressive defense, we have a prolific offense, and we have some pretty good star power.

We've lost 7 games so far this season, but only 1 of them has been an ugly loss. We've had a chance to tie or win the game in the 4th quarter in 6 of those 7 losses (if memory serves me correctly).

I sit down at 1PM Est and know that Im going to see something exciting.

A few years ago, I sat down and was unsure if I was going to be embarassed. Im not embarassed anymore.

I watch football because I want to see close games and fun teams. Houston fits that category perfectly


We're the new "Lovable Losers." Kubiak is Wayne Fonts. That guy
coached the Lions a long ass time, but he was such a nice guy.

barrett
12-10-2009, 02:32 PM
The defense HAS improved, the offense has REGRESSED.
The talent HAS improved, the on-field discipline has REGRESSED.
The team has had LESS injuries, starters such as Slaton and Walter: REGRESS
The road record improves, the home record PLUMMETS

When you improve and regress at the same rate, what is your net gain?

Where is the NET GAIN in this regime? Please. Show it to me.

I would argue that the net gain is generally improved quality of football overall thus far. If the improvement continues, then I would expect our Win/Loss record to improve as well. It is possible that we have improved but more gradually and at a more steady pace than might satisfy your need for immediate gratification.

Runner
12-10-2009, 02:39 PM
For those that are for keeping Kubiak because of his "constant improvement", I have a question.

I am not buying that the team is so improved this year, but I'll posit that for this post. What if the team doesn't get beat too bad in losses next year, shows improved play in some aspects, and everything else stays pretty much the same. The Texans are yet again improved.

If this "improved" team finishes 8-8 next year, do you give Kubiak a new contract or let him go?

gtexan02
12-10-2009, 02:44 PM
For those that are for keeping Kubiak because of his "constant improvement", I have a question.

I am not buying that the team is so improved this year, but I'll posit that for this post. What if the team doesn't get beat too bad in losses next year, shows improved play in some aspects, and everything else stays pretty much the same. The Texans are yet again improved.

If this "improved" team finishes 8-8 next year, do you give Kubiak a new contract or let him go?

Let him go.

Part of the reason that Im still slightly in favor of keeping Kubiak is because I think that another season of our new defensive scheme, coupled with a key safety addition, could see our defense make a transformation similar to that in Denver (I realize the irony is that they got a new coach).

I like the potential of our DC, and I like Kubiak offensively enough to trust he'll keep our offense good, and so I think one more season could give us a more accurate opinion on where this "team" is going

If we finished 8-8 or even 9-7 next year Id say can him

HoustonFrog
12-10-2009, 02:50 PM
Im not a Kubiak stay groupie, nor a fire Kubiak groupie, but somewhere undecided.
That being said, the argument for keeping is is really quite simple: Football is fun to watch in Houston.

We have an aggressive defense, we have a prolific offense, and we have some pretty good star power.

We've lost 7 games so far this season, but only 1 of them has been an ugly loss. We've had a chance to tie or win the game in the 4th quarter in 6 of those 7 losses (if memory serves me correctly).

I sit down at 1PM Est and know that Im going to see something exciting.

A few years ago, I sat down and was unsure if I was going to be embarassed. Im not embarassed anymore.

I watch football because I want to see close games and fun teams. Houston fits that category perfectly

See and that is what I don't get. Many team out there want more. If their coach isn't winning in the playoffs, they wan tto fire him. People here seem content to be .500, fun and keep the nice guy. I guess that is fine but that isn't a great goal.

Cjeremy635
12-10-2009, 02:52 PM
The defense HAS improved, the offense has REGRESSED.
The talent HAS improved, the on-field discipline has REGRESSED.
The team has had LESS injuries, starters such as Slaton and Walter: REGRESS
The road record improves, the home record PLUMMETS

When you improve and regress at the same rate, what is your net gain?

Where is the NET GAIN in this regime? Please. Show it to me.

You have to look at the reason for those things though:

Defense- improved since the beginning of the season. True.

Offense- regressed since last season. This is caused by several issues and I think the blame falls mostly on the players, not coaching decisions. By "player causes" I mean everything from poor execution down to injuries. We have to take them all into consideration. Pitts is out, that was a big blow from a continuity stand point, along with the other injured o-lineman. Our run game has been crap this year....could be caused by the injured players being out and the fact that Slaton has just plain sucked for some reason. I can't for the life of me blame Kubiak for Slaton's rapid decline from last season (I can blame him for continuing to play Brown though, that guy sucks even worse) The Walter regression....hmm...I can't really call it a regression. He and Shaub never got off to a great start this season due to the early injury that Walter had. Besides, the beginning of the season, the offense was not the problem. We had Owen and AJ playing lights out. Owen goes down (see injury clause above) and then we are in a heap of trouble. For some reason he and Shaub aren't on the same page. I see that more on Shaub for not going through his reads and looking for him more than I see Kubiak telling Shaub not to target him.

I can not sit here and try to sugar coat the losses. They sting and we should have a better record than we do. The thread of hope I'm holding on to is the fact that we have been in most of the games we played this year. A play or 2 not being screwed up by the people on the field are the difference between us winning and losing those games and being in the hunt for the playoff right now. That's what keeps me optimistic about Kubiak and thinking that he had the guys in the correct position to succeed, they failed on their part of the deal. I mean I can't sit here and ***** at Kubiak for Dunta making a pass interferance call or getting burned by a rookie. He was put in the correct position on the field, but he failed at his job, by his own hands. Sure, you can say "well that falls on the coaching for not having them ready to make the plays come game time", but we know that isn't always the case. You can only teach someone so much, they have to have the instincts and the mental fortitude to make the plays that are required of them when the time actually comes.

gtexan02
12-10-2009, 02:55 PM
See and that is what I don't get. Many team out there want more. If their coach isn't winning in the playoffs, they wan tto fire him. People here seem content to be .500, fun and keep the nice guy. I guess that is fine but that isn't a great goal.

Im not content to be 8-8, Im content to watch good football because its something we've never had before.

Teams don't fire their coach if they make the playoffs. Teams fire their coach if they consistently make the playoffs and lose early.

You have to have something consistently, then fail to show improvement, before getting canned.

Houston teams have never been consistently entertaining to watch. We've had an embarassing team for years. THis is the first year that I feel we're consistently putting out an "Any Given Sunday" type team that can beat anyone. If we had been doing this and ending up 8-8 for 2 or 3 years, then yeah, fire his ass. But this is the first year the defense and offense have both shown signs of clicking together at the same time.

Like I said, if we go 8-8 or 9-7 again, its a no brainer. But dont accuse me of being happy with mediocrity. If anything, you can say Im scared of regressing. As this is the first time we've consisntely been enjoyable, Im not lookin gforward to the possibility of slipping back into the "bad ol' days"

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 02:55 PM
At the end of the season, you are what your record says you are. When it's obvious that the talent has improved, but the record stays the same...who do you blame?

This is really the crux of the matter, isn't it?

"WE ARE SO MUCH BETTER!"...yet our record stays the same.

Standing still is not progress, folks.

Like Frank Zappa said: "Without deviation progress is not possible."

I don't think it's that simple.

Oh, but it is that simple. You are the one making it complicated.

The simplicity is that winning more than you lose gives you a winning record.

If your winning record is good enough, you make the playoffs.

If you don't lose in the playoffs, you become champion.

See how simple the NFL is? Why complicate such an easy-to-understand system? The league does not look at offensive or defensive rankings, or turnover ratios, or individual records, or even statistical improvement, to determine who makes the cut of entering the playoffs.

If you're a NCAA football fan, I can understand the need to complicate things, but this is the NFL, which is a results-driven league, plain and simple.

barrett
12-10-2009, 03:01 PM
It would be hard to speculate on something like that until we get there. I'm weighing the improvement that I witnessed this year.

I'll say this, I have greater expectations for this team each year. We are a young team with an extremely young nucleus. I feel like that young nucleus is trying to find consistency. I feel like you would have a hard time arguing agianst the thought that #8 played more consistent, #59, #44, #76, #73, #91, #93, #54, #12, #89, #11, #81, #35, #26 all returned from last year and played more consistent football that contributed to our ability to perform at a high level.

14 of 22/24 starters played more consistently. That's 2/3rds of the team. With rookies #56 and #29 contributing at an extremely high level in starting positions to boot.

#20, #83, #80, #3 and #4 regressed mentally. (i am including #80 in this because I feel like he had more drops than last year and his run blocking trailed off as well, furthermore I have extremely high expectations for him)

All of these players made mistakes, the ones who improved as well as the ones who didn't. But overall they improved including the Coach.

I expect all of these players to continue to improve. None of them are past their prime and the added free agents (#94 & 31) improved as the season went on.

How is that not a reflection of the coaching staff?

Runner
12-10-2009, 03:09 PM
For those that are for keeping Kubiak because of his "constant improvement", I have a question.

I am not buying that the team is so improved this year, but I'll posit that for this post. What if the team doesn't get beat too bad in losses next year, shows improved play in some aspects, and everything else stays pretty much the same. The Texans are yet again improved.

If this "improved" team finishes 8-8 next year, do you give Kubiak a new contract or let him go?

Come on - this is a simple question that shouldn't require waffling.

If constant improvement is all that matters, then of course you give him a new contract.

If you would not extend him, then the only real difference between you and those wanting to get rid him at this point is patience.


I guess it is a hard question to answer at that.

barrett
12-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Oh, but it is that simple. You are the one making it complicated.

The simplicity is that winning more than you lose gives you a winning record.

If your winning record is good enough, you make the playoffs.

If you don't lose in the playoffs, you become champion.

See how simple the NFL is? Why complicate such an easy-to-understand system? The league does not look at offensive or defensive rankings, or turnover ratios, or individual records, or even statistical improvement, to determine who makes the cut of entering the playoffs.

If you're a NCAA football fan, I can understand the need to complicate things, but this is the NFL, which is a results-driven league, plain and simple.

How does a comment like that make any logical sense? There are immense factors that go into the outcome of any 1 play, not to mention any 1 game, or furthermore, any 1 season. If you don't understand that then perhaps you should be the one watching college football where all you have to have is more money for your programs merchandising and bigger and faster players and a safer schedule THAT YOU CHOOSE.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2009, 03:14 PM
Im not content to be 8-8, Im content to watch good football because its something we've never had before.

Teams don't fire their coach if they make the playoffs. Teams fire their coach if they consistently make the playoffs and lose early.

You have to have something consistently, then fail to show improvement, before getting canned.

Houston teams have never been consistently entertaining to watch. We've had an embarassing team for years. THis is the first year that I feel we're consistently putting out an "Any Given Sunday" type team that can beat anyone. If we had been doing this and ending up 8-8 for 2 or 3 years, then yeah, fire his ass. But this is the first year the defense and offense have both shown signs of clicking together at the same time.

Like I said, if we go 8-8 or 9-7 again, its a no brainer. But dont accuse me of being happy with mediocrity. If anything, you can say Im scared of regressing. As this is the first time we've consisntely been enjoyable, Im not lookin gforward to the possibility of slipping back into the "bad ol' days"

I get what you are saying but don't you think it is a pretty low standard to have...fun team, seeming to improve, but playing for nothing for 3 years straight. That is consistently failing whether it is the playoffs or now. As I said earlier on here, Dallas might fire Wade if he doesn't make it or go far in the playoffs and he has won games. I think at some point you stop with the incredibly patient years of baby steps and you expect the same type of improvement. I think people in general have forgotten what the goal is just because now is better than Capers.

barrett
12-10-2009, 03:16 PM
Come on - this is a simple question that shouldn't require waffling.

If constant improvement is all that matters, then of course you give him a new contract.

If you would not extend him, then the only real difference between you and those wanting to get rid him at this point is patience.


I guess it is a hard question to answer at that.

So long as I feel like we are heading in the right direction. I'm sure that's as "simple" a decision that Bob McNair will make in his career.

Runner
12-10-2009, 03:18 PM
Come on - this is a simple question that shouldn't require waffling.

If constant improvement is all that matters, then of course you give him a new contract.

If you would not extend him, then the only real difference between you and those wanting to get rid him at this point is patience.


I guess it is a hard question to answer at that.

So long as I feel like we are heading in the right direction. I'm sure that's as "simple" a decision that Bob McNair will make in his career.

So that's a yes, extend Kubiak after an improved 8-8 next year?

barrett
12-10-2009, 03:29 PM
It's harder for me to see us improving and going 8-8 again. Then again, that's not even assured this year. So let's see how this plays out. If they loose 3 of the next four it may be a moot point anyway.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 03:38 PM
It's harder for me to see us improving and going 8-8 again. Then again, that's not even assured this year. So let's see how this plays out. If they loose 3 of the next four it may be a moot point anyway.

For the last three seasons, we've improved in some areas and regressed
in others. The rate of improvement has not been higher than the regression,
so we're looking better while finishing in the same place. Last year, we
were one of the least penalized teams in the league, but our overall talent
was less.

This year, we have more talent, yet this squad makes boneheaded penalties
right when they need to be locked in. Our quarterbacks turned the
ball over a ton last year. Schaub has started every game, AND cut his
interceptions and fumbles, BUT, the runningbacks have started turning it
over as much as the QB's last year.

Plus 1 minus 1 equals ZERO progress over the last THREE seasons.

We just look DAMN GOOD while losing. Set your standards higher, and so
will your owner. At least with the Rockets, you can SEE them trying. The
Astros just talk about it, and thus, can barely draw flies. The jury is
still out on the Texans, though. Bob better not screw this up.

barrett
12-10-2009, 03:52 PM
For the last three seasons, we've improved in some areas and regressed
in others. The rate of improvement has not been higher than the regression,
so we're looking better while finishing in the same place. Last year, we
were one of the least penalized teams in the league, but our overall talent
was less.

This year, we have more talent, yet this squad makes boneheaded penalties
right when they need to be locked in. Our quarterbacks turned the
ball over a ton last year. Schaub has started every game, AND cut his
interceptions and fumbles, BUT, the runningbacks have started turning it
over as much as the QB's last year.

Plus 1 minus 1 equals ZERO progress over the last THREE seasons.

We just look DAMN GOOD while losing. Set your standards higher, and so
will your owner. At least with the Rockets, you can SEE them trying. The
Astros just talk about it, and thus, can barely draw flies. The jury is
still out on the Texans, though. Bob better not screw this up.

That is inaccurate.

So doesn't improving the talent give us a better chance to win? Doesn't reducing mental mistakes at the QB position give us a better chance to win? Looking good while loosing is an improvement over past seasons under Kubiak.

I think Bob McNair and I have similar standards when it comes to this franchise. Build a lasting winner the right way.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 03:57 PM
How does a comment like that make any logical sense?

Simplicity is lost on you. YOU keep saying that they improved, but then blather on about intangibles and stats and things that really do not mean a damn thing at the end of the year.

The ONLY thing that really matter is wins and losses. Yet you want to complicate the issue with some sort of zeal based in quantum physics to explain the most simplest of ideas. We are still 5-7 at week 13, which is a trend that has repeated itself for three seasons now. Please, explain how this is IMPROVEMENT without bending over backward or making some other asinine illogical statement(s).

The fire-Kubiak crowd is SIMPLE and EASY to understand. Your logic requires suspension of reality and lots of hope and what ifs and nonsense. You have not made even ONE point that could be considered a sound reason for keeping such a mediocre coach.

It's harder for me to see us improving and going 8-8 again.

And you want to talk about logic?! PUH-LEEZ! :rake:

Stemp
12-10-2009, 04:04 PM
The fire-Kubiak crowd is SIMPLE and EASY to understand.


DON'T CARE HOW, I WANT IT NOW!!!
http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/veruca_salt.jpg

barrett
12-10-2009, 04:07 PM
I'll certainly agree with you that the fire Kubiak crown is simple.

We've lost by a touchdown or less in every single loss this year.

Can you wrap your head around that?

mussop
12-10-2009, 04:13 PM
This article says almost exactly what I have been saying for weeks now. I almost wonder if the writer has been reading my post and borrowing from them. Anyway here is the link (http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2009/12/no_justice_no_kubiak.php) and here is the article.

Gary Kubiak is a nice guy. I'll stipulate to that. He works hard. I'll stipulate to that. Bob McNair likes him. I'll stipulate to that. But that Gary Kubiak deserves to keep his job because of that? That I won't stipulate to.

But according to the Houston Chronicle's Richard Justice, Kubiak should keep his job because he's a nice, hard-working guy liked by the owner who has a team that is only a couple of lucky plays away from being 11-1. And if that's not enough, Justice also reminds us stupid readers that, at this point in his head coaching career, Kubiak has the same record as Jeff Fisher, and that his record is only two games worse than the records of Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick after 60 games.

Of course, this being Richard Justice, he leaves a couple of things out of his coach-comparing analysis. At the 60-game mark, Jimmy Johnson was in his fourth year as head coach of the Cowboys. The Cowboys went 11-5 in Johnson's third season and made the playoffs. And at the 12-game mark in his fourth season, game number 60, the Cowboys were 10-2 and well on their way to winning the Super Bowl that season. And Belichick's Cleveland Brown team was 9-3 at game 60 of Belichick's coaching career, and would finish the season 11-5 and in the playoffs.

At this same point, Kubiak's Texans are 5-7, have lost four straight, and have essentially been eliminated from playoff contention.

Then there's Jeff Fisher who was working under some very strange conditions when he reached game 60 of his coaching career. Fisher took over the Houston Oilers in midseason, replacing a fired Jack Pardee. Fisher went 1-5 that season. The next year, 1995, the Oilers were 7-9, but the whole uproar over whether the Oilers were getting a new stadium or were departing for Nashville was already well underway. The team went 8-8 under difficult circumstances in 1996 and 8-8 in 1997 as the team practiced in Nashville and played games in Memphis.

The Tennessee Oilers were 3-3 when Fisher hit the 60-game mark in 1998. They would finish that season at 8-8, and the next year, they would go to the Super Bowl. So while it's rather nice of Justice to provide us idiots with those comparisons, they're not really apt comparisons.

After all, Kubiak's not dealing with the distraction of a franchise moving to another city. And he's yet to get his team to the playoffs, and they're nowhere near to sniffing a Super Bowl. And as Justice likes to remind us, the Texans have improved since Kubiak took over. Which they have.

But can anybody really argue that Kubiak himself has improved? Does anyone yet have any confidence in Kubiak's clock management? Does anyone yet have any confidence in his game preparation? Does anybody yet have any confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments? Does anybody yet have any confidence that, when the game is on the line, Kubiak will make the right decisions?

The team has improved under Kubiak. The Texans have better, more talented personnel. They're no longer the abomination of a team that they were pre-Kubiak.

But Kubiak is still making the same mistakes he made in his first season. If he's not going to get any better at his job, then why should he be kept around to drag the team down?

There is more but you will have to click the link (http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2009/12/no_justice_no_kubiak.php) to read it.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 04:15 PM
Simplicity is lost on you. YOU keep saying that they improved, but then blather on about intangibles and stats and things that really do not mean a damn thing at the end of the year.

The ONLY thing that really matter is wins and losses. Yet you want to complicate the issue with some sort of zeal based in quantum physics to explain the most simplest of ideas. We are still 5-7 at week 13, which is a trend that has repeated itself for three seasons now. Please, explain how this is IMPROVEMENT without bending over backward or making some other asinine illogical statement(s).

The fire-Kubiak crowd is SIMPLE and EASY to understand. Your logic requires suspension of reality and lots of hope and what ifs and nonsense. You have not made even ONE point that could be considered a sound reason for keeping such a mediocre coach.



And you want to talk about logic?! PUH-LEEZ! :rake:

Co-Sign
:goodpost: :fans:

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 04:16 PM
So you can't tell me why Kubiak deserves to stay based on the job he is doing.

I'm not a Kubiak supporter, I'm a Texan supporter. As a Texan fan, I want Kubiak to stay because I think that is the most likely scenario that will make this team a winner next year. If you want some empirical evidence, then read Texan Chick's blog at chron.com/sports.

Having a disappointing season doesn't mean that the head coach should be fired. That's an awful way to run a football team. Kubiak isn't responsible for all the losing that took place hear before 2006. Frankly, he's not responsible for much of it since, either. This team was void of talent when he took it over and the cap situation was abysmal. This is the first season the Texans have had a better than average roster.

Sean Peyton, with a superior roster and in a weaker division, led the Saints to a 7-9 season in '07 and an 8-8 season in '08... I bet they are happy Benson didn't fire him now. Disappointing seasons happen. It doesn't make the head coach a bad one anymore than one winning season makes a head coach a good one: Barry Switzer, Dave Wannstedt, Mike Martz, Lovie Smith, Wade Phillips, Jim Fassel, Herm Edwards... etc....

disaacks3
12-10-2009, 04:16 PM
Build a lasting winner the right way. You have to have A winner before you can have a LASTING one. Where's this "winner" you speak of? :confused:

9-7 (or better) = Winner
8-8 = ???
7-9 (or worse) = Loser

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 04:17 PM
I'll certainly agree with you that the fire Kubiak crown is simple.

We've lost by a touchdown or less in every single loss this year.

Can you wrap your head around that?

Yet, according to you, we have this highly ranked offense with a much improved team. And the best that they can do is status quo.

Okey-dokey :ok: whateva'

Pull your head out and wrap it around that.

Runner
12-10-2009, 04:22 PM
For the last three seasons, we've improved in some areas and regressed
in others. The rate of improvement has not been higher than the regression,
so we're looking better while finishing in the same place. Last year, we
were one of the least penalized teams in the league, but our overall talent
was less.

This year, we have more talent, yet this squad makes boneheaded penalties
right when they need to be locked in. Our quarterbacks turned the
ball over a ton last year. Schaub has started every game, AND cut his
interceptions and fumbles, BUT, the runningbacks have started turning it
over as much as the QB's last year.

Plus 1 minus 1 equals ZERO progress over the last THREE seasons.

We just look DAMN GOOD while losing. Set your standards higher, and so
will your owner. At least with the Rockets, you can SEE them trying. The
Astros just talk about it, and thus, can barely draw flies. The jury is
still out on the Texans, though. Bob better not screw this up.

That is inaccurate.

So doesn't improving the talent give us a better chance to win? Doesn't reducing mental mistakes at the QB position give us a better chance to win? Looking good while loosing is an improvement over past seasons under Kubiak.

I think Bob McNair and I have similar standards when it comes to this franchise. Build a lasting winner the right way.

I quitting pressing you to answer the earlier question because you showed me you couldn't commit to an answer. I was fine with that because that was an answer in itself.

Then you start back up with this self-righteous "MY way is the RIGHT way" stuff. Therefore, I'll ask you to put your cloak of arrogance back on and tell me:

If Kubiak leads an improved Texans team to an 8-8 record next year, do you think he should get a new contract?

Yes or no. Just tell us the "right way".

barrett
12-10-2009, 04:23 PM
You have to have A winner before you can have a LASTING one. Where's this "winner" you speak of? :confused:

9-7 (or better) = Winner
8-8 = ???
7-9 (or worse) = Loser




Build:

v. built (blt), build·ing, builds
v.tr.
1. To form by combining materials or parts; construct.
2. To order, finance, or supervise the construction of
3. To develop or give form to according to a plan or process; create:
4. To increase or strengthen by adding gradually to:
5. To establish a basis for; found or ground:

I didn't say has built.

That's the whole debate. Is he on the right track or not? You say no. I say yes.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 04:24 PM
DON'T CARE HOW, I WANT IT NOW!!!
http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/veruca_salt.jpg

Riiiiiight. That's your best argument to keep Kubiak? A lame, childish reply to fans who no longer want to drink the Koolaide of mediocrity for a four year coach?

Your argument = FAIL

http://www.number1homeagent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/only-the-mediocre.jpg

barrett
12-10-2009, 04:29 PM
Yet, according to you, we have this highly ranked offense with a much improved team. And the best that they can do is status quo.

Okey-dokey :ok: whateva'

Pull your head out and wrap it around that.

I must have missed myself talking about offense rankings when my head was up there. Or you're putting words in my mouth that is up my ass. Why are you in here with me?

At this stage, apparently, the best the team can do is .500. My assessment that despite the win/loss record the team is much improved. How do you not see that? Do you really only see the win/loss record? That is too simplistic of a view in my opinion. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Kubiak is on the right track and therefore should remain the head coach.

mussop
12-10-2009, 04:30 PM
I'll certainly agree with you that the fire Kubiak crown is simple.

We've lost by a touchdown or less in every single loss this year.

Can you wrap your head around that?

Can you wrap your head around the fact that Kubiak isnt any better a coach than he was 4 years ago? He continues to make bad decisions in every aspect of coaching. Personell, in game adjustments, clock management and game preperation. And when the game matters the most do you really have confidence that he will make a good decision?

Kubiak has taken this team as far as his coaching abillity will allow him to. You yourself have pointed out that the team has gotten more talented and has improved in almost every aspect, yet the results have been the same year after year. Its simple deduction, everyone and everything about this team has gotten better except Kubiaks coaching ability. There are mountain sized piles of evidence to prove just that, and a lot of it is expressed in the pro Kubiaks posts, even yours.

barrett
12-10-2009, 04:34 PM
I quitting pressing you to answer the earlier question because you showed me you couldn't commit to an answer. I was fine with that because that was an answer in itself.

Then you start back up with this self-righteous "MY way is the RIGHT way" stuff. Therefore, I'll ask you to put your cloak of arrogance back on and tell me:

If Kubiak leads an improved Texans team to an 8-8 record next year, do you think he should get a new contract?

Yes or no. Just tell us the "right way".

I think the "right way" would be to assess it then. I can't say for sure what circumstances will be involved in this "hypothetical improved 8-8 team" that you keep talking about. I've been arguing all along that there are more complex factors to assess other than just the record alone. That's why I can't answer you on that. I don't know how I would feel at that point.

But, regardless I'm glad you're starting to see it my way. :)

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 04:38 PM
Simplicity is lost on you. YOU keep saying that they improved, but then blather on about intangibles and stats and things that really do not mean a damn thing at the end of the year.

The ONLY thing that really matter is wins and losses. Yet you want to complicate the issue with some sort of zeal based in quantum physics to explain the most simplest of ideas. We are still 5-7 at week 13, which is a trend that has repeated itself for three seasons now. Please, explain how this is IMPROVEMENT without bending over backward or making some other asinine illogical statement(s).

The fire-Kubiak crowd is SIMPLE and EASY to understand. Your logic requires suspension of reality and lots of hope and what ifs and nonsense. You have not made even ONE point that could be considered a sound reason for keeping such a mediocre coach.



And you want to talk about logic?! PUH-LEEZ! :rake:



You are making all kinds of logical leaps...

Of course Wins and Losses are not "all that matter"... at least, not in regards to assessing the development and growth of the football team moving forward. It certainly is the main factor regarding reaching the playoffs, or positioning for the draft. However, even in those scenarios, the league factors in other things such as strength of schedule.

I'll gladly admit that you may be right and replacing Kubiak may be the best course of action. I'm simply unsure and tend to think it isn't. Can you acknowledge that a team can be better and yet the record be worse? Surely you can admit that as a possibility.... Now, read Stephanie's blog at chron.com/sports about our rather dramatic improvement in DVOA. Also realize that if Kris Brown had the same season he had last year, we are probably a virtual lock for the playoffs right now (I'm not blaming the season on a kicker, but the reality is that his kicking won us some games last year and in '07 as much as it has lost them this year)... So, I tend to not blame the FG woes on the head coach or see poor kicking as an example of a poorly coached team.

I think it's foolish to want Kubiak fired without a plan in place. This isn't like 2005, where cleaning house was neccessary because the organization was a disaster. So, how about the "Fire Kubiak Club" include their plan for GM, head coach, OC, DC along with any discussion of firing Kubiak. I'd definitely be interested in replacing him with someone better. But, to be hell-bent on replacing him regardless... seems spiteful and ill-conceived.

barrett
12-10-2009, 04:42 PM
Can you wrap your head around the fact that Kubiak isnt any better a coach than he was 4 years ago? He continues to make bad decisions in every aspect of coaching. Personell, in game adjustments, clock management and game preperation. And when the game matters the most do you really have confidence that he will make a good decision?

Kubiak has taken this team as far as his coaching abillity will allow him to. You yourself have pointed out that the team has gotten more talented and has improved in almost every aspect, yet the results have been the same year after year. Its simple deduction, everyone and everything about this team has gotten better except Kubiaks coaching ability. There are mountain sized piles of evidence to prove just that, and a lot of it is expressed in the pro Kubiaks posts, even yours.

I'm really getting tired of saying this. That improvement that you are arguing as to why he should go is the same reason I'm using in my argument that he should stay.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 04:46 PM
I must have missed myself talking about offense rankings when my head was up there. Or you're putting words in my mouth that is up my ass. Why are you in here with me?

Please explain by what measure you are determining "improvement", Einstein. You keep babbling on how individual players have improved, yet you want to take exception as to how I packaged your thoughts? Seriously?

Please, elaborate and shed light in your thought process to determine your very own perception of improvement if it is not based on stats, wins/losses, or rankings.

I can't wait to be educated about a system that seems to elude so many other fans.

IAt this stage, apparently, the best the team can do is .500. My assessment that despite the win/loss record the team is much improved. How do you not see that? Do you really only see the win/loss record? That is too simplistic of a view in my opinion. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Kubiak is on the right track and therefore should remain the head coach.

What other qualifications do HEAD COACHES get judged by in the NFL, if not final results?

I do not disagree that Kubiak is "on the right track". I just don't think he's the man to get us to the destination that this track should lead us to. Can you even comprehend the other side that believes Kubiak has reached the end of his abilities as a head coach for this team at this point in time? I'm not asking for agreement, just a confirmation that you have the ability in you to simply comprehend another perspective than your own.

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 04:49 PM
Should Soprano be fired from Miami this year? Miami has already lost more games than they did last year!!

Perhaps Harbaugh should be fired from Baltimore?

or

Belichek from NE?

or

Coughlin from NY?

or

Tomlin from Pittsburgh?

or

Jon Fox

or

Mike Smith


If your subsequent argument is that those guys have won before, then you are acknowledging that other things do matter. Who has done a worse coaching job this season?

Kubiak
Tomlin
Harbaugh
Coughlin
Belichek

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 04:53 PM
Please explain by what measure you are determining "improvement", Einstein. .

Try this measurement (DVOA)... from Texan Chick's blog today-

"Bill Barnwell: Our projection for the Texans in 2009 was 6.9 wins. Seeing as that they're 5-7 at the moment, they're going to end up pretty close to that number.

The reason why our projection was so low despite their record a year ago had to do with a combination of things; their DVOA (our stat which compares each play in a season to the league average after adjusting for down, distance, situation, and the quality of the opposition) wasn't all that great a year ago, at -6.8%, which was 23rd in the league. They had a tough schedule ahead of them, since we were projecting Indy to be very good (albeit not undefeated) and Jacksonville to be a 10-win playoff team. We also look at things like age of starters and continuity of lineups.

This year, their DVOA is actually far better. At 10.2%, they're 14th in the league, just ahead of the 9-3 Bengals. The reason why has to do with how they've played, independent of their win-loss record -- they've dominated the Colts at times before losing, handily beat those same Bengals, and lost six games by a touchdown or less. With a little luck -- a couple of bounces here or there, a fumble recovery, a swatted ball that hit the ground instead of falling into a defender's arms -- they could very easily be 7-5 or 8-6. "

mussop
12-10-2009, 04:54 PM
I'm really getting tired of saying this. That improvement that you are arguing as to why he should go is the same reason I'm using in my argument that he should stay.

Ok then put that aside and aknowlege the rest of my post. If Kubiak is still making the same mistakes he made in his first season. If he's not going to get any better at his job, then why should he be kept around to drag the team down?

mussop
12-10-2009, 04:56 PM
Try this measurement (DVOA)... from Texan Chick's blog today-

"Bill Barnwell: Our projection for the Texans in 2009 was 6.9 wins. Seeing as that they're 5-7 at the moment, they're going to end up pretty close to that number.

The reason why our projection was so low despite their record a year ago had to do with a combination of things; their DVOA (our stat which compares each play in a season to the league average after adjusting for down, distance, situation, and the quality of the opposition) wasn't all that great a year ago, at -6.8%, which was 23rd in the league. They had a tough schedule ahead of them, since we were projecting Indy to be very good (albeit not undefeated) and Jacksonville to be a 10-win playoff team. We also look at things like age of starters and continuity of lineups.

This year, their DVOA is actually far better. At 10.2%, they're 14th in the league, just ahead of the 9-3 Bengals. The reason why has to do with how they've played, independent of their win-loss record -- they've dominated the Colts at times before losing, handily beat those same Bengals, and lost six games by a touchdown or less. With a little luck -- a couple of bounces here or there, a fumble recovery, a swatted ball that hit the ground instead of falling into a defender's arms -- they could very easily be 7-5 or 8-6. "

To bad we arent playing horse shoes. :shades:

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 04:57 PM
I must have missed myself talking about offense rankings when my head was up there. Or you're putting words in my mouth that is up my ass. Why are you in here with me?

At this stage, apparently, the best the team can do is .500. My assessment that despite the win/loss record the team is much improved. How do you not see that? Do you really only see the win/loss record? That is too simplistic of a view in my opinion. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Kubiak is on the right track and therefore should remain the head coach.

It's only an indictment of Kubiak. He's remained the same, while the
talent level has increased. There is no flexibility IN-GAME to what
adjustments a defense has made to him. The "close losses" only show
that we've matched our opponent in talent, but it's coaching that
gets teams to the elite level.

Where has Kubiak shown HIS growth, as a COACH? It's unrealistic to
expect championships from out-talenting our coaching deficiency. This
is the NFL, not the Big 12.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 04:59 PM
Can you acknowledge that a team can be better and yet the record be worse?

I have already stated that point on numerous occasions. Kubiak deserves credit for improving the team from the Capers era. I'm not a hater and will readily admit that fact.

But, I just don't think he's a good head coach. Good coordinator? Yes. Good offensive talent evaluator? Yes. Good head coach? Based on four seasons, no.

Also realize that if Kris Brown had the same season he had last year, we are probably a virtual lock for the playoffs right now (I'm not blaming the season on a kicker, but the reality is that his kicking won us some games last year and in '07 as much as it has lost them this year)... So, I tend to not blame the FG woes on the head coach or see poor kicking as an example of a poorly coached team.

There should be attempts to analyze those games other than bringing the discussion down to FGs. It is a little disingenuous to act like Kubiak had a great head coaching game for 59 minutes of each game and it just came down to a kicker.

I think it's foolish to want Kubiak fired without a plan in place. This isn't like 2005, where cleaning house was neccessary because the organization was a disaster. So, how about the "Fire Kubiak Club" include their plan for GM, head coach, OC, DC along with any discussion of firing Kubiak. I'd definitely be interested in replacing him with someone better. But, to be hell-bent on replacing him regardless... seems spiteful and ill-conceived.

Like I mentioned in another thread, my own position is not a witch hunt or a lust for vengeance. I wanted Kubiak to succeed and be here for 20 decades as much as any other fan.

But, based on this season, compiled on top of knowledge from the other three seasons, I have just arrived at the conclusion that Kubiak has taken it as far as he can, so delaying the inevitable does just that.

Hey, I think he'll be here in 2010, and to be quite honest, I hope I am completely and utterly wrong about Kubiak. As a Texans fan, I want nothing but the best, and if Kubiak is our HC for next season, then by all means, let's hope they win and cheer accordingly.

But I'm not going to overlook his glaring weakness, shortcomings, and lack of improvement in key areas in order to be a "true fan" in someone else's eyes.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 04:59 PM
Should Soprano be fired from Miami this year? Miami has already lost more games than they did last year!!

Perhaps Harbaugh should be fired from Baltimore?

or

Belichek from NE?

or

Coughlin from NY?

or

Tomlin from Pittsburgh?

or

Jon Fox

or

Mike Smith


If your subsequent argument is that those guys have won before, then you are acknowledging that other things do matter. Who has done a worse coaching job this season?

Kubiak
Tomlin
Harbaugh
Coughlin
Belichek
These guys have all had winning seasons...recently to boot. Kubiak is on pace for his best season ever this year. Those guys by and large are all in the playoff hunt too...something Kubes isn't in.

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:01 PM
Should Soprano be fired from Miami this year? Miami has already lost more games than they did last year!!

Perhaps Harbaugh should be fired from Baltimore?

or

Belichek from NE?

or

Coughlin from NY?

or

Tomlin from Pittsburgh?

or

Jon Fox

or

Mike Smith


If your subsequent argument is that those guys have won before, then you are acknowledging that other things do matter. Who has done a worse coaching job this season?

Kubiak
Tomlin
Harbaugh
Coughlin
Belichek

WITHOUT A DOUBT KUBIAK!!!

I dont see any of those coaches making the poor coaching decisions that Kubiak has continued to make for the last 4 years. Do you?

barrett
12-10-2009, 05:02 PM
Please explain by what measure you are determining "improvement", Einstein. You keep babbling on how individual players have improved, yet you want to take exception as to how I packaged your thoughts? Seriously?

Please, elaborate and shed light in your thought process to determine your very own perception of improvement if it is not based on stats, wins/losses, or rankings.

I can't wait to be educated about a system that seems to elude so many other fans.



What other qualifications do HEAD COACHES get judged by in the NFL, if not final results?

I do not disagree that Kubiak is "on the right track". I just don't think he's the man to get us to the destination that this track should lead us to. Can you even comprehend the other side that believes Kubiak has reached the end of his abilities as a head coach for this team at this point in time? I'm not asking for agreement, just a confirmation that you have the ability in you to simply comprehend another perspective than your own.

I can say with complete honesty that after rewatching each individual player on each individual play that I feel fairly confident in my "non statistical assessment" of their individual performance throughout the season.

My feelings are that in fact statistics are helpful in assessing performance but that viewing 1 single stat as the only measure of performance is perhaps a bit near sighted. I would think that a rational executive would take into account more than just a win loss record when assessing his team managers effectiveness especially with a young "improving" team.

You can't expect every CEO to fire their head coach for going 8-8 twice and 5-7 thus far...

I was all about comprehension until that bolded statement above. Help me out with that one if you don't mind.

I definitely can see the line of thought that he has taken us as far as he can. I just happen to feel confident that the evidence suggests otherwise. So when I do the math that makes me right and you wrong.


EDIT:

I should clarify, when I say that makes me right and you wrong I'm explaining my stance. Not stating fact.

ATXtexanfan
12-10-2009, 05:04 PM
This is like a bunch of drunks arguing religion and politics. If kubiak stays all you guys will still be here. If he is sent packing all you will be here as well. Move on fellas.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 05:09 PM
These guys have all had winning seasons...recently to boot. Kubiak is on pace for his best season ever this year. Those guys by and large are all in the playoff hunt too...something Kubes isn't in.

Only Texans fans can be so myopic that comparing successful, winning head coaches somehow supports the mentality of keeping a coach that has done nothing in four seasons.

I definitely can see the line of thought that he has taken us as far as he can. I just happen to feel confident that the evidence suggests otherwise. So when I do the math that makes me right and you wrong.

In your mind, you are right.

With that we will just have to agree to disagree and see how it all plays out. Only then can we determine who is actually right about Kubiak the head coach of the Texans.

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 05:12 PM
WITHOUT A DOUBT KUBIAK!!!

I dont see any of those coaches making the poor coaching decisions that Kubiak has continued to make for the last 4 years. Do you?

Bill Belichek has lost two games this season by going for 4th downs when it made no sense to do so. All five games they've lost (with Tom Brady at QB, by the way!) they had at least a 7pt lead, and had significant 2nd half leads in 4 of the 5 losses.

Mike Tomlin- They just lost at home to freakin' Oakland with a 4th quarter lead, in a must win game.

Mike Smith- Played Michael Turner one week after a high ankle sprain and set him back 3 weeks.

John Fox- watch Carolina play, and explain to me what he's doing right.


I watch a lot of NFL football, and I have a friend that has gambled and won for years. We have a running joke that we should form a coaching consultant firm and sit in a booth and advise NFL head coaches on how to manage the clock, timeouts, goal to go situations, etc... Because NFL head coaches, ALL OF THEM, consistently make really poor decisions.

I remember Mike Holmgren with Seattle kicking a FG with 2 minutes to go in the game, down 4 to Saint Louis on a 4th and 3 from the 7 yd line. Naturally, St. Louis took the kickoff of kneeled the ball for the win. I would've sworn he was trying to beat the spread it was such a poor decision. Belichek has gone for 4th downs in really poor situations all season.

You'll are more familiar with Kubiak so you are aware of more of his mistakes.

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:15 PM
I can say with complete honesty that after rewatching each individual player on each individual play that I feel fairly confident in my "non statistical assessment" of their individual performance throughout the season.

My feelings are that in fact statistics are helpful in assessing performance but that viewing 1 single stat as the only measure of performance is perhaps a bit near sighted. I would think that a rational executive would take into account more than just a win loss record when assessing his team managers effectiveness especially with a young "improving" team.

You can't expect every CEO to fire their head coach for going 8-8 twice and 5-7 thus far...

I was all about comprehension until that bolded statement above. Help me out with that one if you don't mind.

I definitely can see the line of thought that he has taken us as far as he can. I just happen to feel confident that the evidence suggests otherwise. So when I do the math that makes me right and you wrong.

No but you should expect that a CEO would evaluate their management (HC) and make a determination on whether after 4 years they had shown the capacity to improve at his trade. If im the CEO its an easy assesment for me. Kubiak has not improved in any area and threrefore should be replaced with a more capable candidate.

barrett
12-10-2009, 05:17 PM
With that we will just have to agree to disagree and see how it all plays out. Only then can we determine who is actually right about Kubiak the head coach of the Texans.

I hope you saw my edit on that post. I wasn't stating fact with that statement. But I will agree to agree to disagree.

barrett
12-10-2009, 05:20 PM
No but you should expect that a CEO would evaluate their management (HC) and make a determination on whether after 4 years they had shown the capacity to improve at his trade. If im the CEO its an easy assesment for me. Kubiak has not improved in any area and threrefore should be replaced with a more capable candidate.

Well that's the debate isn't it? You're not. Neither am I. But it concerns me that you feel like it would be an easy assesment. I'm certainly glad it's not you for that reason alone if not because your opinion differs from mine. That to me suggests that you're not thinking this through.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 05:20 PM
I hope you saw my edit on that post. I wasn't stating fact with that statement. But I will agree to agree to disagree.

yah, It's all good man! We are all Texans fans, so I certainly hope that there are never any hard feelings in these heated discussions.

In the end, we are all on the same boat headed to the same destination.

barrett
12-10-2009, 05:24 PM
wait! I thought we were on a train. What about this suggests that we're on a boat?

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:24 PM
Bill Belichek has lost two games this season by going for 4th downs when it made no sense to do so. All five games they've lost (with Tom Brady at QB, by the way!) they had at least a 7pt lead, and had significant 2nd half leads in 4 of the 5 losses.

Mike Tomlin- They just lost at home to freakin' Oakland with a 4th quarter lead, in a must win game.

Mike Smith- Played Michael Turner one week after a high ankle sprain and set him back 3 weeks.

John Fox- watch Carolina play, and explain to me what he's doing right.

Once again I dont see any of those coaches making the same mistakes over and over again for the last 4 years, do you? Do you think Kubiak makes better decisions this year than last year? What about the year before last?

Seriously my argument is he hasnt progressed as a coach in 4 years. I wish someone could convinvce me that he has because I like Kubiak and want to beleive he is capable of taking this team to the next level. I jsut dont see it. IMO he hasnt shown any improvemnet as a coach.

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 05:30 PM
Once again I dont see any of those coaches making the same mistakes over and over again for the last 4 years, do you? Do you think Kubiak makes better decisions this year than last year? What about the year before last?

Seriously my argument is he hasnt progressed as a coach in 4 years. I wish someone could convinvce me that he has because I like Kubiak and want to beleive he is capable of taking this team to the next level. I jsut dont see it. IMO he hasnt shown any improvemnet as a coach.

I share your concern. However, I think the team has progressed. I think his clock management is better but I am very concerned with his gameday decisions... However, I like that the team plays hard every week. How many teams do you see come out and consistently play with the effort and intensity that this one does?-

not pittsburgh
not Jacksonville (41-0 to seattle, for instance)
not Philadelphia
not Dallas
not Arizona

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 05:31 PM
Once again I dont see any of those coaches making the same mistakes over and over again for the last 4 years, do you? .

I've seen Belichek go for it on 4th down 3 times this season when it made zero sense to do so. He lost the game vs INdy and he just lost the game vs. Miami making the same bad decision.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 05:32 PM
I share your concern. However, I think the team has progressed. I think his clock management is better but I am very concerned with his gameday decisions... However, I like that the team plays hard every week. How many teams do you see come out and consistently play with the effort and intensity that this one does?-

not pittsburgh
not Jacksonville (41-0 to seattle, for instance)
not Philadelphia
not Dallas
not Arizona
that's laughable. Do you even watch NFL games other than Texans games?

Vinny
12-10-2009, 05:33 PM
I've seen Belichek go for it on 4th down 3 times this season when it made zero sense to do so. He lost the game vs INdy and he just lost the game vs. Miami making the same bad decision.
He's made those same calls and won multiple super bowls. Seriously, are you really trying to say that Kubiak is a better coach than Bill Belichick? That gets you laughed out of every football forum on the planet. You can't just point to a bad play and say a guy is a good coach or a bad coach.

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:35 PM
Well that's the debate isn't it? You're not. Neither am I. But it concerns me that you feel like it would be an easy assesment. I'm certainly glad it's not you for that reason alone if not because your opinion differs from mine. That to me suggests that you're not thinking this through.

If Kubiak is still making the same mistakes he made 4 years ago. If he's not getting any better at his job, then whats to think through. How do you think your boss would assess you under these circumstances?

disaacks3
12-10-2009, 05:35 PM
The DVOA argument cuts both ways though. If our number is so much better than last year and our record is still just as bad, doesn't that point to coaching? In other words, we're playing UNDER what our DVOA says it should be for THIS year. There's gotta be a fault somewhere. :bubbles:

DVOA is fairly useless IMHO...show me how accurate their year-over-year projections are for all 32 teams.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 05:36 PM
wait! I thought we were on a train. What about this suggests that we're on a boat?

A train that wants to be a boat.

http://cash-make-money-online.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/dangerous_oh_****_wrong_way_train_collapse_funny_4 .jpg

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 05:36 PM
These guys have all had winning seasons...recently to boot. Kubiak is on pace for his best season ever this year. Those guys by and large are all in the playoff hunt too...something Kubes isn't in.

If I bring up bad decisions made by winning coaches, then it gets dismissed because they've won. If I bring up bad decisions made by losing coaches, then you would use it to support your point... If I bring up coaches that took awhile to win, that is dismissed also (Fisher)... You do know that the title of this thread is a request to hear from Kubiak supporters?

Texan_Bill
12-10-2009, 05:36 PM
yah, It's all good man! We are all Texans fans, so I certainly hope that there are never any hard feelings in these heated discussions.

In the end, we are all on the same boat headed to the same destination.

I thought we were just re-arranging deck furniture on the Titanic. :thinking:

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 05:38 PM
that's laughable. Do you even watch NFL games other than Texans games?

I watch a ton of football. What's laughable?

Pittsburgh, in a game they needed to win, losing at home to Oakland is laughable.

Jacksonville losing by 41 to Seattle is laughable.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 05:39 PM
I thought we were just re-arranging deck furniture on the Titanic. :thinking:

To some, yes. To others, hey look, an iceburg! But, personally, I would be a poor folk down in the bottom of the ship so I didn't even know that they had deck chairs. I'm going down with the ship!

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 05:40 PM
He's made those same calls and won multiple super bowls. Seriously, are you really trying to say that Kubiak is a better coach than Bill Belichick? That gets you laughed out of every football forum on the planet. You can't just point to a bad play and say a guy is a good coach or a bad coach.

Are your comprehension skills really this poor or are you just intent on twisting my words in order to try and win an argument?

The point is that good coaches make poor decisions that cost their team games. And, sometimes, teams with good coaches and good personnel still can have mediocre or poor seasons.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 05:40 PM
If I bring up bad decisions made by winning coaches, then it gets dismissed because they've won. If I bring up bad decisions made by losing coaches, then you would use it to support your point... If I bring up coaches that took awhile to win, that is dismissed also (Fisher)... You do know that the title of this thread is a request to hear from Kubiak supporters?
you can't just pull a single play from a game here and there as an example of a good or bad coach. It's a simpleton argument. Fisher had to have 4 "home" stadiums in 3 cities over 4 years so if you think his scenario is the same as Kubiak's more power to you. The best Kubiak has ever done is .500 and everyone you bring up have been to the playoffs recently so perhaps you are bringing poor arguments to the table.

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:40 PM
I've seen Belichek go for it on 4th down 3 times this season when it made zero sense to do so. He lost the game vs INdy and he just lost the game vs. Miami making the same bad decision.

I would of gone for the 4th down agains Indy myself. You only have 1/2 yard to go to win the game and you have one of the best offenses in football as opposed to giving the ball up to arguably the best QB in the history of the NFL. Do you really want to campare calls like that to the poor decisions Kubiak has repeatidly made the last 4 years?

:gun:

barrett
12-10-2009, 05:43 PM
If Kubiak is still making the same mistakes he made 4 years ago. If he's not getting any better at his job, then whats to think through. How do you think your boss would assess you under these circumstances?

Perhaps this boss would ask "Why?" I think that would be a good boss. My boss is me. And he thinks I'm awesome. That's why he let me sit here in my p.j.'s today and argue with you nincompoops.

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:45 PM
If I bring up bad decisions made by winning coaches, then it gets dismissed because they've won. If I bring up bad decisions made by losing coaches, then you would use it to support your point... If I bring up coaches that took awhile to win, that is dismissed also (Fisher)... You do know that the title of this thread is a request to hear from Kubiak supporters?

Fisher was working under some very strange conditions when he reached game 60 of his coaching career. Fisher took over the Houston Oilers in midseason, replacing a fired Jack Pardee. Fisher went 1-5 that season. The next year, 1995, the Oilers were 7-9, but the whole uproar over whether the Oilers were getting a new stadium or were departing for Nashville was already well underway. The team went 8-8 under difficult circumstances in 1996 and 8-8 in 1997 as the team practiced in Nashville and played games in Memphis.

The Tennessee Oilers were 3-3 when Fisher hit the 60-game mark in 1998. They would finish that season at 8-8, and the next year, they would go to the Super Bowl. They're not really apt comparisons.

Kubiak's not dealing with the distraction of a franchise moving to another city. And he's yet to get his team to the playoffs, and they're nowhere near to sniffing a Super Bowl.

Can anybody really argue that Kubiak himself has improved? Does anyone yet have any confidence in Kubiak's clock management? Does anyone yet have any confidence in his game preparation? Does anybody yet have any confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments? Does anybody yet have any confidence that, when the game is on the line, Kubiak will make the right decisions?

barrett
12-10-2009, 05:45 PM
I would of gone for the 4th down agains Indy myself. You only have 1/2 yard to go to win the game and you have one of the best offenses in football as opposed to giving the ball up to arguably the best QB in the history of the NFL. Do you really want to campare calls like that to the poor decisions Kubiak has repeatidly made the last 4 years?

:gun:

This is another sign that reassures me that I'm pleased that you're not the one calling the shots in this scenario.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 05:50 PM
I don't know why some of you folks keep disagreeing with Gary Kubiak...

"That is part of this business, there is always going to be talk of that when you are not getting things done on a consistent basis and obviously, this team hasn't been consistent," Kubiak said. "We have struggled these last three weeks, so that is part of my responsibility."

December 1, 2009 (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/01/gary-kubiak-thinks-job-security-questions-are-fair/)

The man is trying to tell you what you keep arguing with us about. :kingkong:

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:51 PM
Perhaps this boss would ask "Why?" I think that would be a good boss. My boss is me. And he thinks I'm awesome. That's why he let me sit here in my p.j.'s today and argue with you nincompoops.

I guess you ran out of intelligent things to say so now it on to smart ass remarks and insults. Typical pro Kubiakers. :kitten:

mussop
12-10-2009, 05:57 PM
This is another sign that reassures me that I'm pleased that you're not the one calling the shots in this scenario.


And this post is another sign that reassures me that I'm pleased that you're not the one calling the shots in this scenario.

:smooch:

barrett
12-10-2009, 05:59 PM
Sorry, it was too good to pass up.

But seriously, I did actually make a serious comment before I dropped my smartass bomb.

And that was to say that I think a good evaluation involves more than just looking at the results. It's trying to understand the cause.

When I do that, I see somethings that give me more patience and belief that the current HC is perhaps the right man for the job.

Runner
12-10-2009, 06:00 PM
With that we will just have to agree to disagree and see how it all plays out. Only then can we determine who is actually right about Kubiak the head coach of the Texans.

I thought that's what we said last year.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 06:01 PM
I thought that's what we said last year.

hey, when you 3-peat .500 you are gonna get some redundancy. :spin:

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 06:04 PM
I thought that's what we said last year.

It is, but "Next Year" is a life philosophy with some folks.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 06:06 PM
It is, but "Next Year" is a life philosophy with some folks. We are tied with these teams...these are the teams that haven't made the playoffs since 2002. There's always next year!

Detroit Lions
Buffalo Bills
Houston Texans

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 06:07 PM
I don't know why some of you folks keep disagreeing with Gary Kubiak...



The man is trying to tell you what you keep arguing with us about. :kingkong:

It's been a bad season. And, Kubiak is responsible for at least some of what has gone wrong. I'm not defending him. I've watched football intently for over 30 years and have consistently seen good coaches make bad decisions. I'm much less concerned with a call or two that was made than I am about some of his personnel decisions. For instance, coming out of the bye with Chris Brown starting is very troubling. And, willingly entering the season with Barber and Ferguson (due to Wilson's injury) as starting safeties was very troubling. Stubbornly falling back to zone runs when other runs are much more effective troubles me. I have plenty of concerns. However, the weight of those concerns aren't greater than the unknown of firing him without a replacement and cohesive plan in place.

mussop
12-10-2009, 06:07 PM
Sorry, it was too good to pass up.

But seriously, I did actually make a serious comment before I dropped my smartass bomb.

And that was to say that I think a good evaluation involves more than just looking at the results. It's trying to understand the cause.
When I do that, I see somethings that give me more patience and belief that the current HC is perhaps the right man for the job.

And in your evaluation what would be the cause if Kubiaks lack of improvemnet as a HC? :spin: Im spinning in my chair in anticipation of your answer.

Texecutioner
12-10-2009, 06:10 PM
And, sometimes, teams with good coaches and good personnel still can have mediocre or poor seasons.

They aren't considered "good" when it's four straight poor seasons.

Lucky
12-10-2009, 06:14 PM
Wow, we need to take the inflammatory rhetoric down a notch or two. I realize that opinions and emotions run strong on both sides. I consider myself to be a huge fan of this team, and I've convinced myself that I'm 101% dead-on-balls-accurate on this issue. Just as everyone else is totally convinced of their opinion.

And I also realize that good nature poking can turn into something uglier. That's what has happened here and in many of the other Kubiak threads. Rather than having the mods go into them all and start whacking away at posts and posts quoting abusive posts, let's just stop making personal assertions altogether, and stick to facts and opinions regarding the coach, the players, and the organization. Attack the message, not the messenger.

barrett
12-10-2009, 06:18 PM
And in your evaluation what would be the cause if Kubiaks lack of improvemnet as a HC? :spin: Im spinning in my chair in anticipation of your answer.
Are you dizzy yet?



I would argue that in some respect his focus on playcalling was part of it. I think as he's given over some of the responsibilities his clock management improved as well as his challenge usage.

I would argue that injuries to 3 starters on the offense this year contributed.

I would argue that having one of the youngest teams in the NFL has contributed.

I would argue that having to grow a winning attitude and confidence from scratch contributed.

I would argue that playing in a very stable division contributed.

I would argue that learning a new defensive scheme contributed.

I would argue that every running back that has taken snaps putting the ball on the ground contributed.

I would say that overall the team has continued to improve and that I would like to give him another year and assess where the team is at by the end of the season next year.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 06:18 PM
It's been a bad season. And, Kubiak is responsible for at least some of what has gone wrong. I'm not defending him. I've watched football intently for over 30 years and have consistently seen good coaches make bad decisions. I'm much less concerned with a call or two that was made than I am about some of his personnel decisions. For instance, coming out of the bye with Chris Brown starting is very troubling. And, willingly entering the season with Barber and Ferguson (due to Wilson's injury) as starting safeties was very troubling. Stubbornly falling back to zone runs when other runs are much more effective troubles me. I have plenty of concerns. However, the weight of those concerns aren't greater than the unknown of firing him without a replacement and cohesive plan in place.

I'm not questioning your football acumen. That being said, I'm sure in that 30 years you have watched bad coaches make good decisions, too.

The problems you mention are part of a bigger picture that I think will repeat itself next season, and this is my concern. We, as Texans fans, sit through yet another mediocre season of improved team with average results. Those problems, to me, are far greater than the unknown of replacing him. So we see the same thing but arrive at different conclusions.

"Bottom line, it's my job to find some consistency in the group," coach Gary Kubiak said. "The team's (lack of) consistency : it's on me.".

"I've got to figure some kind of consistency in what we're doing," said Houston head coach Gary Kubiak. "It comes back on me, the teams consistency comes back on the coach which is me."

Did they quit? Does it matter? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it'll pass as a duck.

Afterward, the coach said the same things he almost always says. He pointed a finger at himself. And then he did it again and again and again.

“It comes back to me,” Gary Kubiak said.

And …

“It comes back on the coach.”

And …

“It's on me.”


And again, more Kubiak quotes from other games. Why are you Kubiak supporters arguing with the guy? He is telling you - point blank - that the inconsistent play is his fault.

Do y'all think Kubiak is a liar? Do you not trust his judgment of his football team? He is either telling the truth or not. Which one is it?

barrett
12-10-2009, 06:20 PM
Wow, we need to take the inflammatory rhetoric down a notch or two. I realize that opinions and emotions run strong on both sides. I consider myself to be a huge fan of this team, and I've convinced myself that I'm 101% dead-on-balls-accurate on this issue. Just as everyone else is totally convinced of their opinion.

And I also realize that good nature poking can turn into something uglier. That's what has happened here and in many of the other Kubiak threads. Rather than having the mods go into them all and start whacking away at posts and posts quoting abusive posts, let's just stop making personal assertions altogether, and stick to facts and opinions regarding the coach, the players, and the organization. Attack the message, not the messenger.

I actually have been enjoying the banter. At least in my ring. Double Barrel and I are almost bff by this point in the debate!

Runner
12-10-2009, 06:23 PM
I think the "right way" would be to assess it then. I can't say for sure what circumstances will be involved in this "hypothetical improved 8-8 team" that you keep talking about. I've been arguing all along that there are more complex factors to assess other than just the record alone. That's why I can't answer you on that. I don't know how I would feel at that point.

But, regardless I'm glad you're starting to see it my way. :)

Good, then I'm ahead of the game if I consider other factors when assessing this "hypothetically improved" team this year. Record is an important factor to me.

I think DVOAs might be too, if I can just find out how many it takes to get into the playoffs and win a Super Bowl. :)


As far as seeing things your way, I'm afraid I haven't been persuaded. For the most part I found your presentation not a way to highlight, but a way to distract the reader from, any good points you might have had.

barrett
12-10-2009, 06:24 PM
I'm not questioning your football acumen. That being said, I'm sure in that 30 years you have watched bad coaches make good decisions, too.

The problems you mention are part of a bigger picture that I think will repeat itself next season, and this is my concern. We, as Texans fans, sit through yet another mediocre season of improved team with average results. Those problems, to me, are far greater than the unknown of replacing him. So we see the same thing but arrive at different conclusions.








And again, more Kubiak quotes from other games. Why are you Kubiak supporters arguing with the guy? He is telling you - point blank - that the inconsistent play is his fault.

Do y'all think Kubiak is a liar? Do you not trust his judgment of his football team? He is either telling the truth or not. Which one is it?

I think the thinking is that he'll figure it out. I think some think he wont. I'm of the opinion that I still want to give him time to try. I don't know if he will but I feel like I see enough from him to let him keep trying. I don't disagree with him when he says it's on me. He has to coach them to play better. He's not doing it well enough but I still see reason to think he will.

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 06:26 PM
They aren't considered "good" when it's four straight poor seasons.

6-10 with that mess of a team in 2006 was a good coaching job.
8-8 with that talent and injury situation in 2007 was a good coaching job.

You can't blame the man for the fact that the organization was a disaster when we took it over.

If you guys want the team to get better, let's hear your solution. Firing Kubiak leaves the team without a coach. Who do you hire? What happens at GM and who are the coordinators going to be?

barrett
12-10-2009, 06:26 PM
Good, then I'm ahead of the game if I consider other factors when assessing this "hypothetically improved" team this year. Record is an important factor to me.

I think DVOAs might be too, if I can just find out how many it takes to get into the playoffs and win a Super Bowl. :)


As far as seeing things your way, I'm afraid I haven't been persuaded. For the most part I found your presentation not a way to highlight, but a way to distract the reader from, any good points you might have had.

Well you should see my powerpoint! And I've got key chains I'm giving away!

mussop
12-10-2009, 06:32 PM
It's been a bad season. And, Kubiak is responsible for at least some of what has gone wrong. I'm not defending him. I've watched football intently for over 30 years and have consistently seen good coaches make bad decisions. I'm much less concerned with a call or two that was made than I am about some of his personnel decisions. For instance, coming out of the bye with Chris Brown starting is very troubling. And, willingly entering the season with Barber and Ferguson (due to Wilson's injury) as starting safeties was very troubling. Stubbornly falling back to zone runs when other runs are much more effective troubles me. I have plenty of concerns. However, the weight of those concerns aren't greater than the unknown of firing him without a replacement and cohesive plan in place.

That is another thread and debate alltogether. For me this is about whether Kubiak is a good enough coach to take us to the next level. For the reasons yo stated above and plenty more I say NO he isnt.

Can anybody really argue that Kubiak himself has improved? Does anyone yet have any confidence in Kubiak's clock management? Does anyone yet have any confidence in his game preparation? Does anybody yet have any confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments? Does anybody yet have any confidence that, when the game is on the line, Kubiak will make the right decisions? Does anybody yet have any confidence in his ability to make personell decisions?

I cant answer yes to any of these questions. Can you?

Lucky
12-10-2009, 06:33 PM
I actually have been enjoying the banter. At least in my ring.
Well, I don't equate calling other posters nincompoops and simpletons as good natured banter. And I'm not calling out you specifically. Just about everyone is to blame. We're already getting complaints from these threads and it will only get worse if it doesn't stop. No one wants to edit or lock threads. Just enjoy the discussions without getting personal.

barrett
12-10-2009, 06:42 PM
I didn't even know I knew how to spell nincompoop! It's been very educational for me. I hope nobody EVER takes anything I say seriously on this board (unless i'm speaking about something other than football). I will make a greater attempt to be less relevant. I thought being socially irrelevant and also the only known person on the planet to have a confirmed doppleganger was a free pass to call people names since you can't say for certain it was actually me!

Again, Lucky, just kidding.

mussop
12-10-2009, 06:50 PM
Are you dizzy yet?



I would argue that in some respect his focus on playcalling was part of it. I think as he's given over some of the responsibilities his clock management improved as well as his challenge usage.

I would argue that injuries to 3 starters on the offense this year contributed.

I would argue that having one of the youngest teams in the NFL has contributed.

I would argue that having to grow a winning attitude and confidence from scratch contributed.

I would argue that playing in a very stable division contributed.

I would argue that learning a new defensive scheme contributed.

I would argue that every running back that has taken snaps putting the ball on the ground contributed.

I would say that overall the team has continued to improve and that I would like to give him another year and assess where the team is at by the end of the season next year.

Well im dizzy after reading this post. :) I dont see how any of the above explanations explain why Kubiak is still making the same flawed coaching decisions that he was making 4 years ago. However I do see you having a future in politics. :bender:

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 06:59 PM
That is another thread and debate alltogether. For me this is about whether Kubiak is a good enough coach to take us to the next level. For the reasons yo stated above and plenty more I say NO he isnt.

Can anybody really argue that Kubiak himself has improved? Does anyone yet have any confidence in Kubiak's clock management? Does anyone yet have any confidence in his game preparation? Does anybody yet have any confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments? Does anybody yet have any confidence that, when the game is on the line, Kubiak will make the right decisions? Does anybody yet have any confidence in his ability to make personell decisions?

I cant answer yes to any of these questions. Can you?


Why would you want him fired if we don't have someone better to replace him with? Seems vindictive. I'm just wanting this team to succeed. It seems like some of you are wanting to punish Kubiak for letting you down. I'm not interested in that.

Lucky
12-10-2009, 07:08 PM
Why would you want him fired if we don't have someone better to replace him with?
Why assume that a replacement can't be found? Is it a complete lack of confidence in Bob McNair's ability to attract a competent and proven head coach? The reasoning that Kubiak should stay because the Texans are unable to bring in a quality coach is depressing. I guess I have more optimism. Maybe that's unfounded, but you can't fire the owner.

mussop
12-10-2009, 07:21 PM
Why would you want him fired if we don't have someone better to replace him with? Seems vindictive. I'm just wanting this team to succeed. It seems like some of you are wanting to punish Kubiak for letting you down. I'm not interested in that.

I dont see how you can get any of that from reading my posts. I have NOTHING against Kubiak as a person. I think he is a good guy. Just not a good coach. Its my contention that Kubaik has not improved as a HC in his 4 years of coaching this team. He is not a good coach. Good coaches do not make the same mistakes over and over again as he has. I am not talking about a bad decision here and there, i'm talking about multiple bad decisions over an extended period of time. Most of which are repeat bad decisions.

I think coaching candidates has been discussed in abundance and dont even want to get into that right now. That doesnt mean I dont think it should be factored into a decision.

IlliniJen
12-10-2009, 07:36 PM
Wow, we need to take the inflammatory rhetoric down a notch or two. I realize that opinions and emotions run strong on both sides. I consider myself to be a huge fan of this team, and I've convinced myself that I'm 101% dead-on-balls-accurate on this issue. Just as everyone else is totally convinced of their opinion.

And I also realize that good nature poking can turn into something uglier. That's what has happened here and in many of the other Kubiak threads. Rather than having the mods go into them all and start whacking away at posts and posts quoting abusive posts, let's just stop making personal assertions altogether, and stick to facts and opinions regarding the coach, the players, and the organization. Attack the message, not the messenger.

http://6.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kufo97SVfk1qax0fjo1_500.jpg

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 07:53 PM
I dont see how you can get any of that from reading my posts. I have NOTHING against Kubiak as a person. I think he is a good guy. Just not a good coach. Its my contention that Kubaik has not improved as a HC in his 4 years of coaching this team. He is not a good coach. Good coaches do not make the same mistakes over and over again as he has. I am not talking about a bad decision here and there, i'm talking about multiple bad decisions over an extended period of time. Most of which are repeat bad decisions.

I think coaching candidates has been discussed in abundance and dont even want to get into that right now. That doesnt mean I dont think it should be factored into a decision.

You can't separate one from another. If Kubiak is fired, he has to be replaced by someone. Who? is what it's all about. You show me a staff and plan that is better than the one we have now, and I would be happy to fire Kubiak. Simply firing Kubiak because you're upset with the season doesn't solve anything.

What are these reoccuring bad decisions that Kubiak makes that you are alluding to?

JB
12-10-2009, 08:21 PM
Wow...just Wow!

This debate can go on until the start of next season or until a change is made. I think what we all need to realize is that everyone here is a fan of the team and has an opinion on what it will take to make the team better. But, in the end, the only opinion that counts is the one held by Bob McNair. And while he is a fan, primarily Bob McNaair is a businessman.... a very successful businessman. And he will also make a business decision, not a fan decision.
He hired GK on a five year business plan with every intention of giving him five years to implement his plan. As a business owner, you give your guy his allotted contract unless he is totally screwing you over.

The Texans have been competitive (not nearly enough for me), and they certainly have not cost Uncle Bob any money. The team has not quit on GK like they did on Capers, and they have not been too much of an embarrasement.

The bottom line will come down to what is best for the Texans and Bob McNair and will be a business decision.

personally, after the HB pass abortion, I was screaming to fire everyone; but, it is now Thursday night and I am ready to move on to the seachickens and how we gonna kick the daylights outts em!:fans:

ps...I may have had just a touch too much JB to coherently post here and I am sure my spelling sucks, so all grammer and spelling nazis just leave me alone.

pps... We all have opinions here, and we all know about opinions...they are like *******s, everyone has one and they all stink...

..unless they agree with me...lol

Vinny
12-10-2009, 08:29 PM
Wow...just Wow!
donno why its so shocking to see fans of the team with different opinions after 44 Kubiak coached games and absolutely zero big wins.

pps... We all have opinions here, and we all know about opinions...they are like *******s, everyone has one and they all stink...
That's what the forum is for...I thought that was assumed.

dalemurphy
12-10-2009, 08:30 PM
How do you guys grade Mike Tomlin's coaching performance tonight? Must win game versus Cleveland and they look confused, unfocused, cold, and bad!

JB
12-10-2009, 08:30 PM
That's what the forum is for...I thought that was assumed.

Absolutely!

Vinny
12-10-2009, 08:34 PM
You can't separate one from another. If Kubiak is fired, he has to be replaced by someone. Who? is what it's all about. You show me a staff and plan that is better than the one we have now, and I would be happy to fire Kubiak. Simply firing Kubiak because you're upset with the season doesn't solve anything.

What are these reoccuring bad decisions that Kubiak makes that you are alluding to?You don't see the redundancy in Gary "it's on me" Kubiak? If you can't see it, don't worry. It's on him and he's gonna get it cleaned up. Here is the latest...

Gary Kubiak has repeatedly touched on special-teams penalties when he’s reviewed games. Here’s a piece of his Monday news conference this week:

“Once again we had two special-teams penalties which has kind of been an issue for us. We had a big false start on fourth-and-3 down in the red zone. It goes with the other mistakes. Obviously the reason we’re losing some close football games is because we’re the team that’s making some of the big mistakes at crucial times in the game, whether it’s a turnover, whether it’s a big penalty. And it’s hard enough to win in this league when you’re doing things right, and when you’re adding these type of issues to the game then it makes it even more difficult. Obviously for us to get back going in the right direction, these things have got to get cleaned up.” I guess Gary is saying the coaching let the players down again. Ok, well maybe not this week.

According to Elias Sports Bureau, the Texans are tied with three teams for the third-most special-teams penalties in the league with 18 -- that’s an unacceptable 1.5 a game. You can't separate one from another. If Kubiak is fired, he has to be replaced by someone. Who? is what it's all about. You show me a staff and plan that is better than the one we have now, and I would be happy to fire Kubiak. Simply firing Kubiak because you're upset with the season doesn't solve anything.

What are these reoccuring bad decisions that Kubiak makes that you are alluding to?You don't see the redundancy in Gary "it's on me" Kubkiak? But, don't worry. It's on him and he's gonna get it cleaned up. Here is the latest...

Gary Kubiak has repeatedly touched on special-teams penalties when he’s reviewed games. Here’s a piece of his Monday news conference this week:

“Once again we had two special-teams penalties which has kind of been an issue for us. We had a big false start on fourth-and-3 down in the red zone. It goes with the other mistakes. Obviously the reason we’re losing some close football games is because we’re the team that’s making some of the big mistakes at crucial times in the game, whether it’s a turnover, whether it’s a big penalty. And it’s hard enough to win in this league when you’re doing things right, and when you’re adding these type of issues to the game then it makes it even more difficult. Obviously for us to get back going in the right direction, these things have got to get cleaned up.” I guess Gary is saying the coaching let the players down again.

According to Elias Sports Bureau, the Texans are tied with three teams for the third-most special-teams penalties in the league with 18 -- that’s an unacceptable 1.5 a game. "That may be on Marciano, but if it is a chronic problem, you know it's on me" - Kubes

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/6781/texans-get-1-5-special-teams-flags-a-game "That may be on Marciano, but if it is a chronic problem, you know it's on me" - Kubes

Lucky
12-10-2009, 08:35 PM
How do you guys grade Mike Tomlin's coaching performance tonight?
Not as good as his Super Bowl win. What's that have to do with why Gary Kubiak should stay or go?

barrett
12-10-2009, 08:37 PM
How do you guys grade Mike Tomlin's coaching performance tonight? Must win game versus Cleveland and they look confused, unfocused, cold, and bad!

Tackling like Busing.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 08:40 PM
How do you guys grade Mike Tomlin's coaching performance tonight? Must win game versus Cleveland and they look confused, unfocused, cold, and bad! What are you trying to say? one quarter of play on Thursday night football equates to 44 games of Kubiak's .500 or bust patrol?

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm guessing there's some other reason why people like Kubiak so much that they aren't letting onto. This thread's devolved into the same ol' same ol'.

It looks like it's pretty hard to say what you like about the guy without
a) making excuses for him
b) comparing him to a perennial playoff coach that he must be superior to
or
c) comparing him to a phantom coach that the Texans have yet to hire.

What do you like about the guy?

Is he a really a good coach? Or did he say something that got you fired up at a pancake breakfast?

JB
12-10-2009, 08:57 PM
I'm guessing there's some other reason why people like Kubiak so much that they aren't letting onto. This thread's devolved into the same ol' same ol'.

It looks like it's pretty hard to say what you like about the guy without
a) making excuses for him
b) comparing him to a perennial playoff coach that he must be superior to
or
c) comparing him to a phantom coach that the Texans have yet to hire.

What do you like about the guy?

Is he a really a good coach? Or did he say something that got you fired up at a pancake breakfast?


What do you hate about the guy?


Is he a really a bad coach? Or did he say something that got you pissed off at a wienie cocktail?

Vinny
12-10-2009, 08:59 PM
What do you hate about the guy?


Is he a really a bad coach? Or did he say something that got you pissed off at a wienie cocktail?
I can't speak for him but I bet he doesn't hate kubiak...Who can hate this guy? It may be his inability to win an important game or have more than 5 wins before week 14 in 3 years and 48 regular season games. Donno, but I'm thinking i'm bingo on this one.

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 09:03 PM
What do you hate about the guy?


Is he a really a bad coach? Or did he say something that got you pissed off at a wienie cocktail?

What the hell is a wienie cocktail?

Is it like a shrimp cocktail?

Mr. White
12-10-2009, 09:04 PM
edit

barrett
12-10-2009, 09:05 PM
sorry to end this debate but I just stumbled onto this little gem from a fella named Joe:


Gary Kubiak has taken a team that could not win against the Katy Tigers and got them to a level where we compete with every team in the league.
He will have one more year to prove his ability and take us to the promise land.
It is easy to forget 2 and 12 but it is still in our history so get ready for 1 more year and one hell of a playoff run. Remember the Superbowl is in Cowboys Stadium and I want to win that so bad I can taste it. So all you soap crazy couch coaches put the soap back in the shower and lets get behind this team like Luv Ya Blue.

Gimmie a freakin' wall!!!!!!

ArlingtonTexan
12-10-2009, 09:12 PM
How do you guys grade Mike Tomlin's coaching performance tonight? Must win game versus Cleveland and they look confused, unfocused, cold, and bad!

Yes... and when Kubiak wins a bleeping Superbowl, he can have a year or two of suckitude.

mussop
12-10-2009, 09:19 PM
You can't separate one from another. If Kubiak is fired, he has to be replaced by someone. Who? is what it's all about. You show me a staff and plan that is better than the one we have now, and I would be happy to fire Kubiak. Simply firing Kubiak because you're upset with the season doesn't solve anything.

What are these reoccuring bad decisions that Kubiak makes that you are alluding to?

Seriously Dale? Do I really need to list all Kubiaks poor in-game decisions, poor personell decisions and his all the instinces of poor game preperation?

In Kubiak own words "if it is a chronic problem, you know it's on me" - Kubes

Runner
12-10-2009, 11:53 PM
What are these reoccuring bad decisions that Kubiak makes that you are alluding to?

Here are some you may or may not agree with:

Their self-evaluation is horrid! Here's about a dozen examples:

1. In the off-season, they inexplicably don't address the safety position. So, they are content with Barber, Wilson, and Ferguson as primary backup. We had cap room and also players like Sean Jones available for almost nothing.

2. RB: Guys like Rashod Jennings, Javon Ringer, Gatrell Johnson... were available in the last couple rounds of the draft. They didn't address it in the draft or in FA.

3. Also, regarding RB, they come out of the bye with the idea that Chris Brown is their best option at HB... Moats looked great at Indy and today yet he couldn't get touches even with Slaton sidelined.

4. Busing!: I told Barrett early in the first quarter today, that they can't win with this guy at safety. For some reason, he played the entire first half and was responsible for almost every big play.

5. Deljuan Robinson: can't see the field, even though he's our best DT.

6. Chris White: he sucks and he isn't any more disciplined or reliable than Caldwell. There is no way he should be playing ahead of Caldwell!

7. Duane Brown!!: love him, but clearly he was hurt and ineffective today. Butler, who I have a lot of faith in, should've had the start at LT.

8. They still haven't figured out that our current group of OLmen can't run the zone scheme every freakin' play!

9. 2 weeks late pulling Fred Bennett out of the lineup!... oh yeah, what a contribution he made today on special teams.

10. Winston should've been slid into guard with Butler moved to RT... Winston isn't a very good edge pass blocker and with the injuries at guard, it's amazing to me that this hasn't even been a consideration!

11. Give Schaub some freedom to audible at the LOS!!!!!!!!.. Why on earth is Kyle Shanahan more qualified to call plays than Matt Schaub? Schaub's intelligent and knows what he's doing. Instead, they continue to handcuff him.

12. Richard Smith lasted 3 seasons! that's too long. If you're working with a guy every day for years, it shouldn't take 3 years to realize he's a moron!

eriadoc
12-11-2009, 12:03 AM
First off, note the avatar. That tells you all you need to know about where I stand.

That said, I'm curious what some of you think Kubiak is supposed to say at press conferences other than "it's on me". Seems like too much weight is being put on meaningless cliches. IMO, if there hadn't been a single press conference or interview all year, I'd have enough evidence to say he needs to go. Pointing to any of the meaningless things he says during PCs is just sort of silly. If I were Kubiak, I wouldn't do PCs at all. It's a no win situation.

Oh, and the post above this is epic LOL.

mussop
12-11-2009, 12:15 AM
Here are some you may or may not agree with:

Thank you for saving me the time.

dalemurphy
12-11-2009, 07:55 AM
Here are some you may or may not agree with:

I don't see that list as a reoccuring issue. I see it as his weakness as a coach and something that needs to be fixed. If you follow any organization, you can come up with a similar list.

dalemurphy
12-11-2009, 08:09 AM
Yes... and when Kubiak wins a bleeping Superbowl, he can have a year or two of suckitude.

This is where all you guys are illogical. I'll certainly agree that Mike Tomlin did a better job preparing/coaching the Steelers in 2008 than Kubiak did in 2008. Fine. Absolutely. However, most of you didn't want Kubiak fired after last season. This year, you all want Kubiak fired because you don't think he's a good coach. My point is that good coaches lead teams to disappointing seasons sometimes and perhaps he is a good coach. Mike Tomlin is an example: apparently a coach winning a Superbowl is strong evidence to most of you the quality of a coach... So, Tomlin must be pretty good. And yet, his very talented and experienced team has been playing like dogcrap for over a month. They are on a 5 game losing streak with losses to: KC, Oakland, and Cleveland.

Now, of course this doesn't mean that Kubiak is a good coach, only that one disappointing season doesn't mean he's a bad one. You argue that he would receive more patience if he had won a Superbowl. Well, that's pretty silly considering there isn't a coach in the history of the NFL that could've gotten the 2006-2008 Texans to the Superbowl. If you want to argue that coaches have a lot of responsibility in the talent development and acquisition of a football team and perhaps one of these great coaches would've done it better, then you are acknowledging the central point to what Barrett and I have been arguing: he has turned a pathetic franchise into a young, developing, and talented football team that legitimately can compete with the best team's in the NFL. So, regardless of the concerns I have regarding his coaching, I think that warrants another season with him as head coach... not because I want to reward him or like him but because I can't think of a scenario for next season that seems more likely to get this team well into the playoffs. Furthermore, I keep asking you guys that want him fired, to tell me what the plan is for his replacement and for the GM, OC, DC, etc... and nobody has an answer. To me, that's an alarming and irresponsible way to handle the team. That kind of response and insistence to fire him without even knowing who would be in place next season is a philosophy that seems less concerned with the progress of the team next year and more concerned with getting some sort of revenge against Kubiak for letting you down this year.

Kaiser Toro
12-11-2009, 08:12 AM
I have tried to be objective in this exercise by taking time to think why we should keep him as Head Coach - not as GM, Director of Player Personnel, Drinking Buddy, 12th Man, Offensive Coordinator - and could not think of any reason why. However, in that search I was trying to find something that was indefensible. I even tried the question "why would another GM/Owner hire Kubiak as HC" and was dumbfounded. Of course, he would be a great OC candidate.

Kubiak's offense is light years ahead of what we had before, but that had everything to do with Carr, so nothing+1 will of course be better.

As with many folks, I like Kubiak, but have heavily invested into the Texans and do not believe he is the guy to take us to the playoffs, let alone win a playoff game with him as HC.

The threads these days are about Kubiak, but for this fan this it has always been about the Texans - no more kids, no more scripts, no more first time coordinators flanking first time head coaches, no more cronyism.

HoustonFrog
12-11-2009, 08:16 AM
I must have missed myself talking about offense rankings when my head was up there. Or you're putting words in my mouth that is up my ass. Why are you in here with me?

At this stage, apparently, the best the team can do is .500. My assessment that despite the win/loss record the team is much improved. How do you not see that? Do you really only see the win/loss record? That is too simplistic of a view in my opinion. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Kubiak is on the right track and therefore should remain the head coach.

Here, I'll make it simple with Dick and Jane examples.

1) Poor Talent and 8-8 = Good job
2) Improved Talent 8-8 = Disappointed but OK
3) Talented and 8-8 or below = Regression

You aren't building if you have an improved offense, an improved defense and more talent and you end up at the SAME PLACE!!!! The one constant in the equations is COACH.

HoustonFrog
12-11-2009, 08:18 AM
Bill Belichek has lost two games this season by going for 4th downs when it made no sense to do so. All five games they've lost (with Tom Brady at QB, by the way!) they had at least a 7pt lead, and had significant 2nd half leads in 4 of the 5 losses.

Mike Tomlin- They just lost at home to freakin' Oakland with a 4th quarter lead, in a must win game.

Mike Smith- Played Michael Turner one week after a high ankle sprain and set him back 3 weeks.

John Fox- watch Carolina play, and explain to me what he's doing right.


.

All winners who have been to the SB or playoffs. Not people leveling out with more talent at .500. How is this so hard?

Runner
12-11-2009, 08:39 AM
Here are some you may or may not agree with:

I don't see that list as a reoccuring issue. I see it as his weakness as a coach and something that needs to be fixed. If you follow any organization, you can come up with a similar list.

Of course you don't. The fact that many of these issues have been there draft after draft, year after year, or game after game only looks like they are recurring issues if you don't look at them from the right angle.

It seems denial of problems is a staple of the reasoning of why Kubiak should be retained, along with "the next guy might not be better". Since I assume Kubiak will be back for a fifth year, I hope he and the team management take a different approach. I'd like to see them identify the problems they have and address them. Putting their collective head in the sand and hoping things get better probably won't work.

=========

You really don't do your argument any justice by relying on bluster and spin. Earlier this week you could obviously see issues that exist, but now you are once again just dismissive of anything that doesn't agree with the theory that Kubiak has had optimum performance here. I made a list of a few things that supported Kubiak staying on this thread, but I don't know if you could come up with any reason that he doesn't deserve a fifth year. This makes your posts appear intellectually dishonest to me, and I think that makes them carry far less weight than they could.

I also realize you don't care what I or most others think.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 08:49 AM
All winners who have been to the SB or playoffs. Not people leveling out with more talent at .500. How is this so hard?

Tomlin was handed his Super Bowl no different than your beloved Barry Switzer.

HoustonFrog
12-11-2009, 08:55 AM
Tomlin was handed his Super Bowl no different than your beloved Barry Switzer.

Come on TB. Tomlin has done a good job, whether handed or not. They have a ton of injuries this year. The point is that you can't live in a bubble and take successful organizations and coaches and then say that because they are having a bad year this year, they are on the same playing field as Kubes, who hasn't done anything. Hell, Chan Gailey took the Cowboys to the playoffs his first year. Let me see...offensive guru with Pitt, great coordinator...ok coach.

dalemurphy
12-11-2009, 08:55 AM
Of course you don't. The fact that many of these issues have been there draft after draft, year after year, or game after game only looks like they are recurring issues if you don't look at them from the right angle.

It seems denial of problems is a staple of the reasoning of why Kubiak should be retained, along with "the next guy might not be better". Since I assume Kubiak will be back for a fifth year, I hope he and the team management take a different approach. I'd like to see them identify the problems they have and address them. Putting their collective head in the sand and hoping things get better probably won't work.

=========

You really don't do your argument any justice by relying on bluster and spin. Earlier this week you could obviously see issues that exist, but now you are once again just dismissive of anything that doesn't agree with the theory that Kubiak has had optimum performance here. I made a list of a few things that supported Kubiak staying on this thread, but I don't know if you could come up with any reason that he doesn't deserve a fifth year. This makes your posts appear intellectually dishonest to me, and I think that makes them carry far less weight than they could.

I also realize you don't care what I or most others think.

What spin? My argument is that :

1. I have concerns with Kubiak
2. He hasn't done a good job as coach this year
3. I'd replace him if there was a better option and plan in place
4. Good coaches can have bad seasons.
5. Give him another year and don't blow this think up simply because we're disappointed with this season.

It's not about Kubiak. I'm concerned with thist team being successful next season... that is the reason why I want him to stay unless someone has a good plan that can be successfully implemented next year. I don't think a successful plan is: fire Kubiak and then start looking for a replacement.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 08:57 AM
Come on TB. Tomlin has done a good job, whether handed or not. They have a ton of injuries this year. The point is that you can't live in a bubble and take successful organizations and coaches and then say that because they are having a bad year this year, they are on the same playing field as Kubes, who hasn't done anything. Hell, Chan Gailey took the Cowboys to the playoffs his first year. Let me see...offensive guru with Pitt, great coordinator...ok coach.

Why does Tomlin get a pass because of injuries??? Owen Daniels isn't a huge loss?? Dude was on pace for 80+ receptions and 1000+ yards.

W/o Polamalu 0-5
w/o OD 0-4

Kaiser Toro
12-11-2009, 09:00 AM
What spin? My argument is that :

1. I have concerns with Kubiak
2. He hasn't done a good job as coach this year
3. I'd replace him if there was a better option and plan in place
4. Good coaches can have bad seasons.
5. Give him another year and don't blow this think up simply because we're disappointed with this season.

It's not about Kubiak. I'm concerned with thist team being successful next season... that is the reason why I want him to stay unless someone has a good plan that can be successfully implemented next year. I don't think a successful plan is: fire Kubiak and then start looking for a replacement.

So the question is, what is Kubiak's plan for next year? I would like to know.

HoustonFrog
12-11-2009, 09:00 AM
Why does Tomlin get a pass because of injuries??? Owen Daniels isn't a huge loss?? Dude was on pace for 80+ receptions and 1000+ yards.

W/o Polamalu 0-5
w/o OD 0-4

I'm not giving him a pass. I'm just saying that he is dealing with that this year...their O-line and D-Line too...and has a SB as trump card. You say he was gifted the team. But he won with the talent. Gary allegedly has a better offense, defense and more talent but has shown that he can go 5-7 through 13 weeks 3 years straight and can turn talent and better stats into a whole lotta mediocre. The argument in the other thread about Pitt giving coaches time...Knoll was 11-3 his 4th season and had won more games each year until then. Cowher took over and won off the bat for 3-4 years straight before they restocked and did it again. Tomlin got the torch from him. Apples and Oranges

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 09:08 AM
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm just saying that he is dealing with that this year...their O-line and D-Line too...and has a SB as trump card. You say he was gifted the team. But he won with the talent. Gary allegedly has a better offense, defense and more talent but has shown that he can go 5-7 through 13 weeks 3 years straight and can turn talent and better stats into a whole lotta mediocre. the argument in the other thread about Oitt giving coaches time...Knoll was 11-3 his 4th season and had won more games each year until then. Cowher took over and won off the bat for 3-4 years straight before they restocked and did it again. Tomlin got the torch from him. Apples and Oranges

No one can argue with Chuck Noll. I hated the guy (facing him twice a season), but there is no denying his accomplishments. 4 Super Bowls in 6 years?? That's awesome and that's why he's in the HOF.

Again, it's Barry Switzer light. I probably could've coached that team and taken them to the Super Bowl. Now that he faces adversity (i.e. injuries) he either gets a pass because of, or he sucks because he can't overcome adversity.

Cowher was handed a defense that included Greg Lloyd, Hardy Nickerson, Rod Woodson and Carnell Lake... I think I could do pretty well with that group too..

Mr. White
12-11-2009, 09:17 AM
No one can argue with Chuck Noll. I hated the guy (facing him twice a season), but there is no denying his accomplishments. 4 Super Bowls in 6 years?? That's awesome and that's why he's in the HOF.

Again, it's Barry Switzer light. I probably could've coached that team and taken them to the Super Bowl. Now that he faces adversity (i.e. injuries) he either gets a pass because of, or he sucks because he can't overcome adversity.

Cowher was handed a defense that included Greg Lloyd, Hardy Nickerson, Rod Woodson and Carnell Lake... I think I could do pretty well with that group too..

You really think that Tomlin is Barry Switzer "lite?" If that's the truth, then he'll be out of the league in 2 more years.

Does anyone really think that'll happen?

dalemurphy
12-11-2009, 09:19 AM
So the question is, what is Kubiak's plan for next year? I would like to know.

On offense, I'm hopeful that Alex Gibbs will be gone and the running game will be addressed with more open minds. They need to incorporate some counter-action in their run game, as well as draw plays, etc.. I'm also hopeful that they will work to improve the interior OL depth and RB situation.

Defensively, other than some upgrades at DT and maybe CB, as well as safety depth, I think an off-season for all those young guys will allow Frank Bush to incorporate a little more disguise in the coverages and blitzes. Basicly, though, just continuing to build on this season.

I think this team will be able to close games out much better if it gets a good running game. I don't think Kubiak has the mindset to blow people away with a pass-dominate offense. So, if this team is going to make real noise next season, the running game has gotta be fixed!

dalemurphy
12-11-2009, 09:21 AM
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm just saying that he is dealing with that this year...their O-line and D-Line too...and has a SB as trump card. You say he was gifted the team. But he won with the talent. Gary allegedly has a better offense, defense and more talent but has shown that he can go 5-7 through 13 weeks 3 years straight and can turn talent and better stats into a whole lotta mediocre. The argument in the other thread about Pitt giving coaches time...Knoll was 11-3 his 4th season and had won more games each year until then. Cowher took over and won off the bat for 3-4 years straight before they restocked and did it again. Tomlin got the torch from him. Apples and Oranges

Show me one respected football person that would argue that the Texan roster is better and more talented than the Steeler's roster!

I'm hopeful it will be in a year or two as Pitt gets older and the young talent for the Texans mature... but, come on! You must think Rick Smith is a miracle worker if you think the Texans have passed up Pittsburgh in talent.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 09:22 AM
You really think that Tomlin is Barry Switzer "lite?" If that's the truth, then he'll be out of the league in 2 more years.

Does anyone really think that'll happen?

No I don't think it'll happen. Dallas turns coaches over. Pittsburgh sticks with coaches.

BigBull17
12-11-2009, 09:46 AM
You really think that Tomlin is Barry Switzer "lite?" If that's the truth, then he'll be out of the league in 2 more years.

Does anyone really think that'll happen?

I think Tomlin is vastly over-rated.

mussop
12-11-2009, 02:33 PM
I don't see that list as a reoccuring issue. I see it as his weakness as a coach and something that needs to be fixed. If you follow any organization, you can come up with a similar list.

Are you kidding? Those were all good examples of poor coaching personell decisions. The sad thing is that that list is just the tip of the iceburg. There are many many more and there is a long list of examples of his poor in-game management, his poor clock management, his poor game preperations and just overall piss poor coaching. Kubiak is a bad HC. I see no indication that one more year is going change that. I wish someone would give me one shred of evidence to the contrary.

You want a game plan, here is one for you. Get a better more competant coach. It shouldnt be hard. Kubiac hasnt improved as a coach in 4 years of on the job training. If he were a player or assistant coach he wouldnt have a job right now. It amazes me that people are wanting to give him a pass because of fear of taking a step back.

You know Im not going to convince you and you arent going to convinve me one way or the other on this one. We have 4 more weeks of watching this bafoon trip over his own feet and I have no doubt he will hang himself, so lets just sit back and enjoy the show. If he somehow miraculoulsy turns into a good coach in that time I will be as happy as anyone here. I just dont see it.

mussop
12-11-2009, 02:35 PM
Why does Tomlin get a pass because of injuries??? Owen Daniels isn't a huge loss?? Dude was on pace for 80+ receptions and 1000+ yards.

W/o Polamalu 0-5
w/o OD 0-4

Oh I dont know maybe because he has actually had success and he doesnt make boneheaded mistakes over and over. Maybe?

Double Barrel
12-11-2009, 03:10 PM
First off, note the avatar. That tells you all you need to know about where I stand.

That said, I'm curious what some of you think Kubiak is supposed to say at press conferences other than "it's on me". Seems like too much weight is being put on meaningless cliches. IMO, if there hadn't been a single press conference or interview all year, I'd have enough evidence to say he needs to go. Pointing to any of the meaningless things he says during PCs is just sort of silly. If I were Kubiak, I wouldn't do PCs at all. It's a no win situation.

Oh, and the post above this is epic LOL.

Well since this seem to be directed at me, two points:

1. Yes it is silly, which was part of the reason I posted them. This thread and others like it get a bit deep and heated, so I was just having fun.

2. More importantly, the Kubiak quotes are true. Inconsistency with teams are the head coach's responsibility, plain and simple. Some of us, like yourself, want him to be held accountable for the obvious failure in his responsibilities, while others want to delay that accountability.

You mention that they are clichés, but that is only because a cliché by one definition is an overused truth that becomes stale. Perhaps Kubiak repeating the same excuse over and over is what turned it into a cliché, but that does not mean it's not true.

Vinny
12-11-2009, 03:14 PM
hilarious. potd Runner

What are these reoccuring bad decisions that Kubiak makes that you are alluding to?Here are some you may or may not agree with:
Their self-evaluation is horrid! Here's about a dozen examples:

1. In the off-season, they inexplicably don't address the safety position. So, they are content with Barber, Wilson, and Ferguson as primary backup. We had cap room and also players like Sean Jones available for almost nothing.

2. RB: Guys like Rashod Jennings, Javon Ringer, Gatrell Johnson... were available in the last couple rounds of the draft. They didn't address it in the draft or in FA.

3. Also, regarding RB, they come out of the bye with the idea that Chris Brown is their best option at HB... Moats looked great at Indy and today yet he couldn't get touches even with Slaton sidelined.

4. Busing!: I told Barrett early in the first quarter today, that they can't win with this guy at safety. For some reason, he played the entire first half and was responsible for almost every big play.

5. Deljuan Robinson: can't see the field, even though he's our best DT.

6. Chris White: he sucks and he isn't any more disciplined or reliable than Caldwell. There is no way he should be playing ahead of Caldwell!

7. Duane Brown!!: love him, but clearly he was hurt and ineffective today. Butler, who I have a lot of faith in, should've had the start at LT.

8. They still haven't figured out that our current group of OLmen can't run the zone scheme every freakin' play!

9. 2 weeks late pulling Fred Bennett out of the lineup!... oh yeah, what a contribution he made today on special teams.

10. Winston should've been slid into guard with Butler moved to RT... Winston isn't a very good edge pass blocker and with the injuries at guard, it's amazing to me that this hasn't even been a consideration!

11. Give Schaub some freedom to audible at the LOS!!!!!!!!.. Why on earth is Kyle Shanahan more qualified to call plays than Matt Schaub? Schaub's intelligent and knows what he's doing. Instead, they continue to handcuff him.

12. Richard Smith lasted 3 seasons! that's too long. If you're working with a guy every day for years, it shouldn't take 3 years to realize he's a moron!

HoustonFrog
12-11-2009, 03:20 PM
Show me one respected football person that would argue that the Texan roster is better and more talented than the Steeler's roster!
I'm hopeful it will be in a year or two as Pitt gets older and the young talent for the Texans mature... but, come on! You must think Rick Smith is a miracle worker if you think the Texans have passed up Pittsburgh in talent.

I never said that. My argument goes back to someone saying that we need to keep coaches in place like Pitt did. I said "because they won." Eventually it led to Tomlin. I said Tomlin won a SB with talent. Gary has more talent on the team this year compared to other years, a better O and D and is still at the same place. It didn't mean more that Pitt.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 03:29 PM
Oh I dont know maybe because he has actually had success and he doesnt make boneheaded mistakes over and over. Maybe?

You mean the success that was handed to him ala Barry Switzer. How has he done now that he's faced some adversity?

Vinny
12-11-2009, 03:31 PM
You mean the success that was handed to him ala Barry Switzer. How has he done now that he's face some adversity?

Switzer is a bad comparison since Tomlin was a very successful NFL defensive coach before he came to the Steelers and Switzer was a boola boola coach before he came into the league...and are you really bagging on Tomlin after he won a Super Bowl and has a better record that Kubiak has now? This is the best Kubiak has ever done....this is the worst Tomlin has ever done and he has much less track record of mediocrity than Kubiak has.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 03:36 PM
Switzer is a bad comparison since Tomlin was a very successful NFL defensive coach before he came to the Steelers and Switzer was a boola boola coach before he came into the league...and are you really bagging on Tomlin after he won a Super Bowl and has a better record that Kubiak has now? This is the best Kubiak has ever done....this is the worst Tomlin has ever done and he has much less track record of mediocrity than Kubiak has.

Quit trying to split hairs. They were both first time head coaches. Both were very successful in their previous endeavors and both involved football. No one is "bagging on" Tomlin, simply stating fact. He took over a very talented and successful team. How many major parts are different today than what was on Cowher's roster??

Maybe it's the worse he's done because it's the first time he's had to face any real adversity.

The argument here is that both teams lost major contributors to their teams and both teams have struggled since.

*EDIT* I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm trying to point out some points / counter points to those that approach issues with an open mind.

LonerATO
12-11-2009, 03:37 PM
Switzer is a bad comparison since Tomlin was a very successful NFL defensive coach before he came to the Steelers and Switzer was a boola boola coach before he came into the league...and are you really bagging on Tomlin after he won a Super Bowl and has a better record that Kubiak has now? This is the best Kubiak has ever done....this is the worst Tomlin has ever done and he has much less track record of mediocrity than Kubiak has.

Before the Bengals came out of no where this year the Steelers had almost a cake walk in the AFC North. Tomlin also got a ton of veteran talent who had been to a Super Bowl a few years back. Kubiak got some of the worst talent in the league playing in the what many have thought to be the best division in football. Whether Kubiak stays or gets fired you have to admit that he took a tougher challenge then Tomlin.

Thorn
12-11-2009, 03:39 PM
I'm getting the feeling, whether we like it or not, that Kubiak is back next year.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 03:41 PM
I'm getting the feeling, whether we like it or not, that Kubiak is back next year.

Probably so. I could care less one way or another.

Vinny
12-11-2009, 03:43 PM
Before the Bengals came out of no where this year the Steelers had almost a cake walk in the AFC North. Tomlin also got a ton of veteran talent who had been to a Super Bowl a few years back. Kubiak got some of the worst talent in the league playing in the what many have thought to be the best division in football. Whether Kubiak stays or gets fired you have to admit that he took a tougher challenge then Tomlin. So I guess after 48 games and an entire roster turn over, we still blame Kubiak's idiotic game management, and 5 wins in week 14 - for three consecutive years, on Casserly. Dom Davis's career was shorter than 48 games wasn't it?

Vinny
12-11-2009, 03:47 PM
Quit trying to split hairs. They were both first time head coaches. Both were very successful in their previous endeavors and both involved football. No one is "bagging on" Tomlin, simply stating fact. He took over a very talented and successful team. How many major parts are different today than what was on Cowher's roster??

Maybe it's the worse he's done because it's the first time he's had to face any real adversity.

The argument here is that both teams lost major contributors to their teams and both teams have struggled since.

*EDIT* I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm trying to point out some points / counter points to those that approach issues with an open mind.I'm not splitting hairs. He hasn't "done worse" than Cowher if you look at both their initial two seasons. Last time I checked, Bill Cowher didn't win the SB every year either. I just thought it was a bad comparison to Switzer since Switzer had zero NFL experience.

eriadoc
12-11-2009, 03:49 PM
Well since this seem to be directed at me, two points:

Wasn't directed at you at all. I missed where you said anything that would have me directing those comments at you.

And I agree with everything you said. I just think there are plenty of valid reasons to can Kubes without muddying the waters with PC comments that every coach makes.

LonerATO
12-11-2009, 03:51 PM
So I guess after 48 games and an entire roster turn over, we still blame Kubiak's idiotic game management, and 5 wins in week 14 - for three consecutive years, on Casserly. Dom Davis's career was shorter than 48 games wasn't it?

I think Kubiak has made bad coaching decisions when it comes to game day, but the fact that Tomlin started with a Super Bowl team and Kubiak had to rebuild a team. I would love to see how Tomlin would have done if he was the HC of the Browns.

Vinny
12-11-2009, 03:58 PM
I think Kubiak has made bad coaching decisions when it comes to game day, but the fact that Tomlin started with a Super Bowl team and Kubiak had to rebuild a team. I would love to see how Tomlin would have done if he was the HC of the Browns.
well, he'd have less wins. It's not like that wouldn't be obvious...but why are we knocking Tomlin? Of all fan bases?

LonerATO
12-11-2009, 04:05 PM
well, he'd have less wins. It's not like that wouldn't be obvious...but why are we knocking Tomlin? Of all fan bases?

I knock the Steelers for what they did to the Oilers back in the day and the fact that my old college roommate was from Mt. Lebanon and was a massive Steelers fan. I have nothing against Tomlin personally, but I'm almost to the point that I want to defend Kubiak on these boards. Im so sick of all of this negativity that has permeated this board. You cant post one thing right now without it becoming about how ****ty Kubiak is or how this team has no heart blah blah blah. I guess Im not a negative person or I can let things go after a few days. Some of the threads start off with good intent, but end up being the same.

Texan_Bill
12-11-2009, 04:17 PM
I'm not splitting hairs. He hasn't "done worse" than Cowher if you look at both their initial two seasons. Last time I checked, Bill Cowher didn't win the SB every year either. I just thought it was a bad comparison to Switzer since Switzer had zero NFL experience.

It took him (Cowher) 14 years.

*****************

As I mentioned earlier in this thread or another Cowher inherited a hell of defense too, Rod Woodson, Greg LLoyd, Hardy Nickerson and Carnell Lake to name a few.

dalemurphy
12-11-2009, 04:17 PM
So I guess after 48 games and an entire roster turn over, we still blame Kubiak's idiotic game management, and 5 wins in week 14 - for three consecutive years, on Casserly. Dom Davis's career was shorter than 48 games wasn't it?

Vinny, Do you think, based on the roster in '06, '07, and '08, that the Texans should've had better records? I don't think many people would argue that the '07 squad should've been competing for the playoffs.

I totally agree that Kubiak has led this team to a very disappointing season this year. But, I continue to attempt to make the point: good coaches lead teams to disappointing seasons sometimes. I bring up guys like Belichek and Tomlin because they are clearly examples of good coaches yet their teams' are disappointing this season. And, they have clearly not gotten anywhere near the most out of their teams. So, though I have concerns about Kubiak that I've listed on previous threads, I don't want him to be fired because of one bad season. I still think the chances are better that this team will be successful with him than any scenario I've heard... especially since all of you guys seem to want to fire him regardless of who we can get to replace him and regardless of what upheaval may come along with the new coach.

DexmanC
12-11-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm getting the feeling, whether we like it or not, that Kubiak is back next year.

If it happens, it'll be fun to watch the sparks fly. His "Gee, gosh darnit.
My kids are battlin.'" act is wearing thin on the fanbase. He starts slow
for the third year in a row, and it's gonna be his ASS.

ArlingtonTexan
12-11-2009, 05:31 PM
Vinny, Do you think, based on the roster in '06, '07, and '08, that the Texans should've had better records? I don't think many people would argue that the '07 squad should've been competing for the playoffs.

I totally agree that Kubiak has led this team to a very disappointing season this year. But, I continue to attempt to make the point: good coaches lead teams to disappointing seasons sometimes. I bring up guys like Belichek and Tomlin because they are clearly examples of good coaches yet their teams' are disappointing this season. And, they have clearly not gotten anywhere near the most out of their teams. So, though I have concerns about Kubiak that I've listed on previous threads, I don't want him to be fired because of one bad season. I still think the chances are better that this team will be successful with him than any scenario I've heard... especially since all of you guys seem to want to fire him regardless of who we can get to replace him and regardless of what upheaval may come along with the new coach.


The flaw is that you are making an assumption that Kubiak is a good coach having a bad year when there is no real evidence that say that he is a good (above average) coach.

DexmanC
12-11-2009, 05:56 PM
Vinny, Do you think, based on the roster in '06, '07, and '08, that the Texans should've had better records? I don't think many people would argue that the '07 squad should've been competing for the playoffs.

I totally agree that Kubiak has led this team to a very disappointing season this year. But, I continue to attempt to make the point: good coaches lead teams to disappointing seasons sometimes. I bring up guys like Belichek and Tomlin because they are clearly examples of good coaches yet their teams' are disappointing this season. And, they have clearly not gotten anywhere near the most out of their teams. So, though I have concerns about Kubiak that I've listed on previous threads, I don't want him to be fired because of one bad season. I still think the chances are better that this team will be successful with him than any scenario I've heard... especially since all of you guys seem to want to fire him regardless of who we can get to replace him and regardless of what upheaval may come along with the new coach.

We've been at or near 8-8 for three consecutive seasons now. The ONLY
things to change were the REASONS (EXCUSES) for the SAME RECORD.
How do you explain 5-7 to start week 14 for 3 consecutive years?

Same ****, different pile.

Thorn
12-11-2009, 06:04 PM
If it happens, it'll be fun to watch the sparks fly. His "Gee, gosh darnit.
My kids are battlin.'" act is wearing thin on the fanbase. He starts slow
for the third year in a row, and it's gonna be his ASS.

Well, IF Kubiak is the head coach next year, and IF he starts out slow again, rest assured, it will be his last year. McNair is patient, but not THAT patient. I'm sure of that.

I'm still firmly in the camp of wanting a new head coach next year, but only if he can get a good one, with experience. I'm not really sure I want another newbie head coach.

Double Barrel
12-11-2009, 06:09 PM
Hey, we could hire Dick Jauron! He's got experience as an NFL head coach and has about the same record as Kubiak over the time span of 2006-2008. ;)

I would be surprised if McNair lets Kubiak go after this season. I think he's most likely going to give him another year just to be certain of his decision. Half a decade should be long enough to ascertain judgment, yeah?

ArlingtonTexan
12-11-2009, 06:26 PM
Hey, we could hire Dick Jauron! He's got experience as an NFL head coach and has about the same record as Kubiak over the time span of 2006-2008. ;)

I would be surprised if McNair lets Kubiak go after this season. I think he's most likely going to give him another year just to be certain of his decision. Half a decade should be long enough to ascertain judgment, yeah?


This is the sense that I get also and to a large extent the MAJOR argument that I have read is this and other threads as to why Kubiak should still be the coach: He might still be a good coach, so give him another chance and we hope everything comes together.

I know one thing people are not breaking their fingers to type all of the above average characteristics Kubes has a coach showing that he has earned another year.

HoustonFrog
12-11-2009, 07:31 PM
Vinny, Do you think, based on the roster in '06, '07, and '08, that the Texans should've had better records? I don't think many people would argue that the '07 squad should've been competing for the playoffs.

I totally agree that Kubiak has led this team to a very disappointing season this year. But, I continue to attempt to make the point: good coaches lead teams to disappointing seasons sometimes. I bring up guys like Belichek and Tomlin because they are clearly examples of good coaches yet their teams' are disappointing this season. And, they have clearly not gotten anywhere near the most out of their teams. So, though I have concerns about Kubiak that I've listed on previous threads, I don't want him to be fired because of one bad season. I still think the chances are better that this team will be successful with him than any scenario I've heard... especially since all of you guys seem to want to fire him regardless of who we can get to replace him and regardless of what upheaval may come along with the new coach.


But Kubiak isn't a good coach. He hasn't won a SB or had a winning season like those guys. So while good coaches do have bad years, there is no proof that Kubiak is good coach. He is a consistently mediocre coach and has been consistently mediocre DESPITE having more talent and better units each year. That usually points to a flaw, like coaching. How is that not clear? There is no comparison

houstonspartan
12-11-2009, 07:46 PM
If it happens, it'll be fun to watch the sparks fly. His "Gee, gosh darnit.
My kids are battlin.'" act is wearing thin on the fanbase. He starts slow
for the third year in a row, and it's gonna be his ASS.

Yep. I could get ugly next year if Kubiak comes back.

What I don't get is, this team can't handle pressure of expectations. If Kubiak comes back next year, do they know how much pressure they will be under? It's going to be insane. If Gary even blinks wrong the fans are going to kill him.

Mr. White
12-11-2009, 08:44 PM
I know one thing people are not breaking their fingers to type all of the above average characteristics Kubes has a coach showing that he has earned another year.

No kidding. I thought it was a pretty simple request.

"What do you like about the guy? Why does he deserve to be here another year?"

So far, the straightest answers were by devil's advocates that don't even want him here.

DexmanC
12-11-2009, 09:06 PM
The recurring argument to keeping Kubiak here:

"Other playoff making, superbowl winning, multiple winning season
having coaches are struggling in '09."

My response to that grasp at straws:

"What has Kubiak done to earn a seat at the table those other
coaches are sitting?"

Please, Pro-Keep-Kubiak-In-Houstoners, address that point.

houstonspartan
12-11-2009, 09:13 PM
The recurring argument to keeping Kubiak here:

"Other playoff making, superbowl winning, multiple winning season
having coaches are struggling in '09."

My response to that grasp at straws:

"What has Kubiak done to earn a seat at the table those other
coaches are sitting?"

Please, Pro-Keep-Kubiak-In-Houstoners, address that point.

Well, to be fair, we could easily go back and look at some of your posts from a few weeks ago. You were pretty gung ho and specific about keeping him. Yes, I know you've seen the light. But you were pretty detailed in your defense of him.

As for the "other playoff making" coaches struggling this year argument, that's a strong reason to FIRE Kubiak. The AFC is really weak this year, and we could have easily taken over. Dynasties left and right are struggling (except for Indy), and we didn't do anything about it.

Unacceptable.

Joe Texan
12-11-2009, 09:22 PM
I will tell you Why Kubiak Thats Coach Kubiak to you soap droppers, is going to stay another year and then another year after that is because he has instilled confidence in Bob McNair that we are a play or two away from winning every game except the Jets Game. You Bone heads can yell and scream but it is deaf talk to the head office of the Texans. Go ahead and give up your tickets so there will be more room for me to move a real fan into your seats. We are a growing NFL franchise and we got it good in Houston. Jump Ship now and you might not catch a ladder to get back on later.
Fair Weather Fan and Couch Coach seem to fit pretty well. I will enjoy the blasts I get from this as I enjoy that kinda crap. Bring it on, cause you can flap those gums till they turn blue and no bit of it will change anything as far as the Texans Future. Texans Should Rally but they are to focused on leaving in the third quarter cause well cause they are Fair Weather just saying

Mr. White
12-11-2009, 09:29 PM
I will tell you Why Kubiak Thats Coach Kubiak to you soap droppers, is going to stay another year and then another year after that is because he has instilled confidence in Bob McNair that we are a play or two away from winning every game except the Jets Game. You Bone heads can yell and scream but it is deaf talk to the head office of the Texans. Go ahead and give up your tickets so there will be more room for me to move a real fan into your seats. We are a growing NFL franchise and we got it good in Houston. Jump Ship now and you might not catch a ladder to get back on later.
Fair Weather Fan and Couch Coach seem to fit pretty well. I will enjoy the blasts I get from this as I enjoy that kinda crap. Bring it on, cause you can flap those gums till they turn blue and no bit of it will change anything as far as the Texans Future. Texans Should Rally but they are to focused on leaving in the third quarter cause well cause they are Fair Weather just saying

http://www.gameops.com/images_3.0/interview/interviews/2007/02/kg1.jpg

Kaiser Toro
12-11-2009, 09:31 PM
Much better reading, with a Randy "Macho Man" Savage voice.

houstonspartan
12-11-2009, 09:31 PM
I will tell you Why Kubiak Thats Coach Kubiak to you soap droppers, is going to stay another year and then another year after that is because he has instilled confidence in Bob McNair that we are a play or two away from winning every game except the Jets Game. You Bone heads can yell and scream but it is deaf talk to the head office of the Texans. Go ahead and give up your tickets so there will be more room for me to move a real fan into your seats. We are a growing NFL franchise and we got it good in Houston. Jump Ship now and you might not catch a ladder to get back on later.
Fair Weather Fan and Couch Coach seem to fit pretty well. I will enjoy the blasts I get from this as I enjoy that kinda crap. Bring it on, cause you can flap those gums till they turn blue and no bit of it will change anything as far as the Texans Future. Texans Should Rally but they are to focused on leaving in the third quarter cause well cause they are Fair Weather just saying


I cannot believe that a PSL holder with such great seats would write this. You should be FURIOUS. I've been a PSL holder for five years, and I am tired of this.

Even worse is that McNair raised ticket prices this year, in the middle of a damn recession.

Since you like to toss out random generalities about other people, let me toss one out at you: You come off as a fan that enjoys tailgaiting, but doesn't really care if we win or lose.

LonerATO
12-11-2009, 09:34 PM
I cannot believe that a PSL holder with such great seats would write this. You should be FURIOUS. I've been a PSL holder for five years, and I am tired of this.

Even worse is that McNair raised ticket prices this year, in the middle of a damn recession.

Since you like to toss out random generalities about other people, let me toss one out at you: You come off as a fan that enjoys tailgaiting, but doesn't really care if we win or lose.

I have said it before and I will say it again, those that drop their PSL's in protest or anger I will be the first to snatch those things up. Im not saying your going to drop them, but those that due will find another fan waiting to grab them.

houstonspartan
12-11-2009, 09:36 PM
I have said it before and I will say it again, those that drop their PSL's in protest or anger I will be the first to snatch those things up.

Well, there are still a ton of PSL's that people are trying to dump, so go for it. You can go to Houstontexans.com and there's a list.

Warning: They are not cheap.

LonerATO
12-11-2009, 09:48 PM
Well, there are still a ton of PSL's that people are trying to dump, so go for it. You can go to Houstontexans.com and there's a list.

Warning: They are not cheap.

http://texans.seasonticketrights.com/Permanent-Seat-Licenses/16992/Listing-Details-Marketplace.aspx

This one isnt that bad at all

houstonspartan
12-11-2009, 09:53 PM
http://texans.seasonticketrights.com/Permanent-Seat-Licenses/16992/Listing-Details-Marketplace.aspx

This one isnt that bad at all

Surprisingly, it's not. The owner must be desperate to dump the seat, since he's not charging for his PSL fee. That seat has like a $1,800 PSL fee. I wonder if that's a bad seat or something.

You should go for it. It's pretty cheap.

And, as you can see, the list of PSL's available is LOOOOONNNGGGG. And it could get longer in a couple of months. And, these these are prime seats that bring in revenue.

McNair should be afraid. Very afraid.

Kaiser Toro
12-11-2009, 10:03 PM
Surprisingly, it's not. The owner must be desperate to dump the seat, since he's not charging for his PSL fee. That seat has like a $1,800 PSL fee. I wonder if that's a bad seat or something.

You should go for it. It's pretty cheap.

And, as you can see, the list of PSL's available is LOOOOONNNGGGG. And it could get longer in a couple of months. And, these these are prime seats that bring in revenue.

McNair should be afraid. Very afraid.

I have no baseline, but that is a surprisingly long list upon first glance.

Lucky
12-11-2009, 11:16 PM
Well, IF Kubiak is the head coach next year, and IF he starts out slow again, rest assured, it will be his last year. McNair is patient, but not THAT patient. I'm sure of that.
I'm pretty sure, too. Considering it would be the last year of Kubiak's contract.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I can't see McNair allowing Kubiak to coach the Texans on a lame duck contract. It's almost never done in the NFL. If someone could point out when the last time a NFL coach played out his contract, I would like to know what the results were.

One thing is for certain: It would be difficult to bring in any new assistants, when they know Kubiak is in his last season. So, McNair had better hope none of his assistants decide to retire (like Alex Gibbs) or move on to other club (like baby Shanny following his dad somewhere). It would also be difficult to sign a top free agent, when the coaching situation is unstabilized.

Speaking of lame, what about Mike Tomlin being brought into this conversation? Tomlin has won a Super Bowl. Tomlin is having one bad season, in 3 years. That bad season is a typical Gary Kubiak season. Let's try to stay rational and on topic.

ArlingtonTexan
12-11-2009, 11:26 PM
I'm pretty sure, too. Considering it would be the last year of Kubiak's contract.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I can't see McNair allowing Kubiak to coach the Texans on a lame duck contract. It's almost never done in the NFL. If someone could point out when the last time a NFL coach played out his contract, I would like to know what the results were.

Wade Phillips is in the last year of three year contract, although it does have a club option for year 4. Of courese, Phillips has less power over his team than and coach in the league as the Owner/GM/ de facto head coach jerry jones is around.

houstonspartan
12-11-2009, 11:43 PM
I'm pretty sure, too. Considering it would be the last year of Kubiak's contract.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I can't see McNair allowing Kubiak to coach the Texans on a lame duck contract. It's almost never done in the NFL. If someone could point out when the last time a NFL coach played out his contract, I would like to know what the results were.

One thing is for certain: It would be difficult to bring in any new assistants, when they know Kubiak is in his last season. So, McNair had better hope none of his assistants decide to retire (like Alex Gibbs) or move on to other club (like baby Shanny following his dad somewhere). It would also be difficult to sign a top free agent, when the coaching situation is unstabilized.

Speaking of lame, what about Mike Tomlin being brought into this conversation? Tomlin has won a Super Bowl. Tomlin is having one bad season, in 3 years. That bad season is a typical Gary Kubiak season. Let's try to stay rational and on topic.

Agree with all of this. The more I think about it, the more I just can't see McNair bringing him back. It just makes no sense at all.

Bringing the Steelers/Tomlin into this conversations is dumb. I was just talking with someone about this last night. Steelers fans have high standards, but they're going to give Tomlin a break. The man won them a Super Bowl, for pete's sakes. He gets a pass.

Kubiak, on the other hand...

eriadoc
12-12-2009, 12:59 AM
Texans Should Rally but they are to focused on leaving in the third quarter cause well cause they are Fair Weather just saying

OK, Mr. Random Capitalization Guy, tell me when I missed the fair weather.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 03:13 AM
What has he shown you that warrants another year?

What will be different next year?

I'd prefer something empirical. Something measurable.

instant offense - i find it extremely difficult to believe many coaches could come in and get as much or more from our players without spending so much that it'd strangle other areas. even with kubiak we need 2 interior offensive linemen, a runningback (gerhart?), an upgrade at starting receiver (shipley?), and without kubiak coaching up orlovsky the next couple of years we'd need to sign or draft another quarterback. is another coach going to get a top 5 offense from this group even if everybody's healthy?

improvement - in every area but the one that matters (wins). talent, defense, and staff have improved each season. the defense has taken a huge step in several areas. many are calling for gibbs to call it quits, and we've got matthews ready to take over. bush in his first year has worked well, and lil shanahan is only going to improve.

youth - every team in the nfl talks about building through the draft, and kubiak's done exactly that. it may get him fired, but texans fans should be greatful our baseline mirrors the steelers or patriots of a decade (or more) ago as opposed to throwing money at possibilities like the redskins. if we're going to build exclusively through the draft and young free agents, we WILL be inconsistant. it beats the heck out of putting all of our eggs in sharper and glenn and coleman and payne and wade and (and and and) hoping to win with a very small window of opportunity.

building from the inside out - sure not all has worked as intended but it isnt for a lack of effort. kubiak's drafted spencer, winston, brown, caldwell, mario, okoye, and barwin as first day picks (missing two seconds in the last 3 seasons). we've also gone after hopeful or focused pieces such as studdard, okam, weaver, smith, robinson, cody, and an excess of walk-ons - many currently playing key roles. by conventional wisdom, kubiak's doing it exactly right and will see those fruits in the near future.

potential - similar to the draft, this is an area that could be the end of kubiak's tenure. many, if not most, of our draft picks and signings are based on what they'll do 2 to 5 years down the road. so many of our players, even the perceived busts, still have so much time to boom before they even mature. altering that progression could be detrimental and possibly disastrous when staying the course with coaches who know these guys is more likely to get better results.

developement - not perfect, but if we're going to expect the youngest starting lineup in the nfl to be in the playoffs, we cant ignore how they got to that position. some progress, some regress, some are going through both (as with all teams), but under kubiak we've seen a lot more of the former. mario, demeco, slaton, schaub, daniels, cushing, and pollard have all had probowl calibre seasons under kubiak with schaub being the old man at 28. with our offensive success, brown will also be mentioned before long.

competitiveness - outside of the jets, there hasnt been a game this season that we werent there to win. we didnt go in unprepared or unmotivated (see steelers), and whether up against indy or down against arizona the texans have given what they have. as with every cliche in football, we've been one break away from having secured a playoff spot at this point. we're SO dang close SO dang often - a couple more players can push us over that hill, a new coaching staff could go either direction.

consistancy - bob mcnair's great flaw. we need time to gel. we need to execute. UGH! yeah i think i'm bleeding out of the ears just writing that but it doesnt take away their truths. our offensive line stayed healthy last season and propelled slaton to what should've been a probowl birth, the runaway #1 receiver in the league, and a top 5 offense. that kind of cohesiveness, especially in a growing organization that is on a forward path (unlike capers' aging and declining path), will continue to build upon itsself. studdard and white and caldwell and barwin and pollard and cushing and quinn and jacoby are getting their first real reps this season - their familiarity next season whether as backups or starters will greatly improve our abilities along with kubiak and his staff's ability to adjust with them.

houstonspartan
12-12-2009, 03:41 AM
instant offense - i find it extremely difficult to believe many coaches could come in and get as much or more from our players without spending so much that it'd strangle other areas. even with kubiak we need 2 interior offensive linemen, a runningback (gerhart?), an upgrade at starting receiver (shipley?), and without kubiak coaching up orlovsky the next couple of years we'd need to sign or draft another quarterback. is another coach going to get a top 5 offense from this group even if everybody's healthy?

improvement - in every area but the one that matters (wins). talent, defense, and staff have improved each season. the defense has taken a huge step in several areas. many are calling for gibbs to call it quits, and we've got matthews ready to take over. bush in his first year has worked well, and lil shanahan is only going to improve.

youth - every team in the nfl talks about building through the draft, and kubiak's done exactly that. it may get him fired, but texans fans should be greatful our baseline mirrors the steelers or patriots of a decade (or more) ago as opposed to throwing money at possibilities like the redskins. if we're going to build exclusively through the draft and young free agents, we WILL be inconsistant. it beats the heck out of putting all of our eggs in sharper and glenn and coleman and payne and wade and (and and and) hoping to win with a very small window of opportunity.

building from the inside out - sure not all has worked as intended but it isnt for a lack of effort. kubiak's drafted spencer, winston, brown, caldwell, mario, okoye, and barwin as first day picks (missing two seconds in the last 3 seasons). we've also gone after hopeful or focused pieces such as studdard, okam, weaver, smith, robinson, cody, and an excess of walk-ons - many currently playing key roles. by conventional wisdom, kubiak's doing it exactly right and will see those fruits in the near future.

potential - similar to the draft, this is an area that could be the end of kubiak's tenure. many, if not most, of our draft picks and signings are based on what they'll do 2 to 5 years down the road. so many of our players, even the perceived busts, still have so much time to boom before they even mature. altering that progression could be detrimental and possibly disastrous when staying the course with coaches who know these guys is more likely to get better results.

developement - not perfect, but if we're going to expect the youngest starting lineup in the nfl to be in the playoffs, we cant ignore how they got to that position. some progress, some regress, some are going through both (as with all teams), but under kubiak we've seen a lot more of the former. mario, demeco, slaton, schaub, daniels, cushing, and pollard have all had probowl calibre seasons under kubiak with schaub being the old man at 28. with our offensive success, brown will also be mentioned before long.

competitiveness - outside of the jets, there hasnt been a game this season that we werent there to win. we didnt go in unprepared or unmotivated (see steelers), and whether up against indy or down against arizona the texans have given what they have. as with every cliche in football, we've been one break away from having secured a playoff spot at this point. we're SO dang close SO dang often - a couple more players can push us over that hill, a new coaching staff could go either direction.

consistancy - bob mcnair's great flaw. we need time to gel. we need to execute. UGH! yeah i think i'm bleeding out of the ears just writing that but it doesnt take away their truths. our offensive line stayed healthy last season and propelled slaton to what should've been a probowl birth, the runaway #1 receiver in the league, and a top 5 offense. that kind of cohesiveness, especially in a growing organization that is on a forward path (unlike capers' aging and declining path), will continue to build upon itsself. studdard and white and caldwell and barwin and pollard and cushing and quinn and jacoby are getting their first real reps this season - their familiarity next season whether as backups or starters will greatly improve our abilities along with kubiak and his staff's ability to adjust with them.

Sorry, but I have to toss a cup of bull**** juice all over your long post.

You use a lot of words that this regime is used to using - potential, youth, etc - but you forgot about one thing: Wins.

Sorry, but four years is enough time.

Next.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 04:24 AM
Sorry, but I have to toss a cup of bull**** juice all over your long post.

You use a lot of words that this regime is used to using - potential, youth, etc - but you forgot about one thing: Wins.

Sorry, but four years is enough time.

Next.

of course wins is the end all statistic ... but that wasnt the question asked was it? my excessively long post is why i think continuing with kubiak will achieve those results - especially given many of the alternatives being thrown around. my stance is that keeping the course will see something of a dynasty in the near future as our "potential, youth, etc" reach their primes because of our direction under kubiak.

Grams
12-12-2009, 07:57 AM
I have been a Texan fan from the beginning. While I cannot breakdown plays and tell anyone who was out of position and why, I do watch every game.

I have been watching football for more years than the majority of posted here have been alive. (I started watching NFL football when YA Tittle was the QB of the Giants - that was a long time ago.)

What I have seen from the Texans is an improvement every year. Each year under Kubiak we get better, more competitive.

This year we are just so close to being a very good football team. We are not getting blow out, we come prepared, we make adjustments (most of the time), and we are inches away from winning games. I know that is very frustrating to a long of fans. But it is better than where we have been. Some of you who were fans of the Oilers - this seems like forever.

In this day of instant gratification (there is a 60 sec answer to everything and I want it and I want it now syndrome) it is hard to understand that some things take time to build correctly. You can build it fast but it will not last as long as something built the right way. Patience is a virtue that most fans do not have.

While I am not a "pink soaper" or a "one more yearer", I understand both sides of the debate. (Where did pink come in for soap for the NFL?) Would we be better of with a new coach or keeping the one we have? No one actually knows. There is no guarantee that any other coach will do a better job than the one we already have.

We are so close right now. It just seems we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Is that piece, the age of the team, the coaches, the losing mentality, the maturity, a player on the OL, a secondary player, a RB? None of us knows, we can ony speculate what the problem is.

We can't have everything immediately. Good things come to those who wait and build one piece at a time. We are getting there.

Joe Texan
12-12-2009, 08:58 AM
OK, Mr. Random Capitalization Guy, tell me when I missed the fair weather.


If the shoe fits

beerlover
12-12-2009, 09:24 AM
I'll be breif to the point, I think the hometown bias still swings my boat. I would hate to see him leave, go somewhere else then start winning these close games. Imagine the whining then, "oh how did we let him leave, we should never have let that happen", talk when he coaches another cities team to a Superbowl. no thanks :snowday:

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 09:37 AM
I'll be breif to the point, I think the hometown bias still swings my boat. I would hate to see him leave, go somewhere else then start winning these close games. Imagine the whining then, "oh how did we let him leave, we should never have let that happen", talk when he coaches another cities team to a Superbowl. no thanks :snowday:

So... We give him 10 years till he gains enough talent to win in spite of his
decisions. Good. This really IS the Big 12!

beerlover
12-12-2009, 09:54 AM
hard to win without weapons, when your turn it over its almost impossible I don't care who's coaching.

JB
12-12-2009, 09:57 AM
I have been a Texan fan from the beginning. While I cannot breakdown plays and tell anyone who was out of position and why, I do watch every game.

I have been watching football for more years than the majority of posted here have been alive. (I started watching NFL football when YA Tittle was the QB of the Giants - that was a long time ago.)

What I have seen from the Texans is an improvement every year. Each year under Kubiak we get better, more competitive.

This year we are just so close to being a very good football team. We are not getting blow out, we come prepared, we make adjustments (most of the time), and we are inches away from winning games. I know that is very frustrating to a long of fans. But it is better than where we have been. Some of you who were fans of the Oilers - this seems like forever.

In this day of instant gratification (there is a 60 sec answer to everything and I want it and I want it now syndrome) it is hard to understand that some things take time to build correctly. You can build it fast but it will not last as long as something built the right way. Patience is a virtue that most fans do not have.

While I am not a "pink soaper" or a "one more yearer", I understand both sides of the debate. (Where did pink come in for soap for the NFL?) Would we be better of with a new coach or keeping the one we have? No one actually knows. There is no guarantee that any other coach will do a better job than the one we already have.

We are so close right now. It just seems we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Is that piece, the age of the team, the coaches, the losing mentality, the maturity, a player on the OL, a secondary player, a RB? None of us knows, we can ony speculate what the problem is.

We can't have everything immediately. Good things come to those who wait and build one piece at a time. We are getting there.

:bravo:

Great Post Grams. Most people on here or too young or have forgot or just refuse to acknowledge the facts of the NFL. Do you remember the Oilers of '64-'74 that went a combined 49-102-5? Or the Oilers of '82-'86 that went 16-49?


Or how about the Saints that waited 13 years for their first non-losing season? And 21 years for their first winning season?

Or Tampa Bay that had 15 straight losing seasons from '82-'96?

Or the Cardinals that went from '85-'97 with only one .500 season ('94) in that span?

The instant gratification syndrome has totally spoiled many things...not least of all sports fans.

Kaiser Toro
12-12-2009, 10:04 AM
If the shoe fits

Smell it?

Lucky
12-12-2009, 10:16 AM
In this day of instant gratification (there is a 60 sec answer to everything and I want it and I want it now syndrome) it is hard to understand that some things take time to build correctly. You can build it fast but it will not last as long as something built the right way. Patience is a virtue that most fans do not have.
I'm not sure how 4 years equates to "instant gratification", but I do understand that 4 years is a long time period in the NFL. The average NFL career is less than 4 years. Most NFL player contracts are 4 years or less. A team has to be built in less than 4 years, or the players you are building around will be gone. That's just the reality that is the NFL. Great organizations realize this and constantly reload their talent. While winning.

Regarding the "improvement every year", well I don't see it. It is not indicated by the standings. Or the games. Whether a loss is by 30 or 3, it's a loss. I was much more impressed by the Texans 2007 8-8 record than anything Kubiak's teams have produced since. In 2007, the Texans battled major injuries to the QB and their All Pro WR, yet still played to a .500 record. Since then, the Texans have found ways to lose games versus good teams. No, they haven't been blown out as much as they were in the past. Yes, they seem very close to beating these teams. It's just that some of us feel the missing ingredient isn't a couple of players. It's the man coaching these players.

ArlingtonTexan
12-12-2009, 10:43 AM
Sorry, but I have to toss a cup of bull**** juice all over your long post.

You use a lot of words that this regime is used to using - potential, youth, etc - but you forgot about one thing: Wins.

Sorry, but four years is enough time.

Next.

Not going to kill for this post. He at least has offered reasons that for the most are specific and not the generalizations "we don't know if another coach is better' or "you guys just being impatient" that have offered for the most part.