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Runner
12-12-2009, 10:57 AM
:bravo:

Great Post Grams. Most people on here or too young or have forgot or just refuse to acknowledge the facts of the NFL. Do you remember the Oilers of '64-'74 that went a combined 49-102-5? Or the Oilers of '82-'86 that went 16-49?


Or how about the Saints that waited 13 years for their first non-losing season? And 21 years for their first winning season?

Or Tampa Bay that had 15 straight losing seasons from '82-'96?

Or the Cardinals that went from '85-'97 with only one .500 season ('94) in that span?

The instant gratification syndrome has totally spoiled many things...not least of all sports fans.

I have to give you props for realism. You are comparing the Texans to similar teams rather than great teams or otherwise predicting a dynasty.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 10:57 AM
So... We give him 10 years till he gains enough talent to win in spite of his
decisions. Good. This really IS the Big 12!

win in spite of his decisions? ask yourself honestly, where would we be at this point with the texans without kubiak's decisions? if you'll recall, kubiak spent his first 2 seasons eliminating those badass contracts, another removing sherman's additions (which i admit had me fooled), and building through the draft ... and as the offensive guru projected to be has made us a top tier offense without any wasted motions. that speaks to me of good decisions. a half-back pass is just plain dumb (but the chargers and colts have done it successfully), starting brown when slaton's fumbling is a no-win situation, and many more are poor decisions - but these are not big picture and not what a coach's tenure can be based on.

kubiak should ...

coach the offense ... top 10 the last three seasons
acquire talent ... being frustrated by our results speaks for itsself (or we could be celebrating our superbowl 2nd win of the season against the steelers)
surround himself with good coaches ... gibbs, rhodes, matthews, shanahan, bush, and marciano (and sherman who should actually take a year off of kubiak's tenure)
prepare and motivate ... we're 1 play or kick per game away from 10 wins to this point, maybe 11.
manage the roster ... after a 2 year purge we have the youngest and one of the most feared starting lineups in football without having to spend to do so (our potentially bad contracts are orlovsky and smith ... cap hell!)
develope talent ... mario, demeco, cushing, brown, slaton, winston, daniels, schaub, quinn, spencer, adibi, diles (i can keep going if you want).

kubiak's decisions, in my opinion, are in line with what will make us successful in the long term - and if replaced the next head coach will have struck a gold mine. why would cowher be attracted to the texans as opposed to the more popular raiders or home town panthers or savior of the lions or every other opportunity? we are attractive because of the perception that kubiak's done everything to get us here, but another coach (even proven winners) will be able to get more out of a young team without on-field leadership. why should another coach get to finish what kubiak's started? and make no mistake, we've just started ... i've said it over and over ... when this houston texans team hits their prime (when our starting lineup is atleast 27 years old) we'll be a juggernaut.

Mr. White
12-12-2009, 11:08 AM
I'll be breif to the point, I think the hometown bias still swings my boat. I would hate to see him leave, go somewhere else then start winning these close games. Imagine the whining then, "oh how did we let him leave, we should never have let that happen", talk when he coaches another cities team to a Superbowl. no thanks :snowday:

Maybe it's the Brad Lidge syndrome. A guy capable of getting a team to the World Series, but he's hit his ceiling in Houston. He's even regressed.

The only way that he'll get to the Super Bowl is with a change of address. He's got us as far as he can take us for now. His style of coaching just isn't working for these "kids" anymore.

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 11:22 AM
Maybe it's the Brad Lidge syndrome. A guy capable of getting a team to the World Series, but he's hit his ceiling in Houston. He's even regressed.

The only way that he'll get to the Super Bowl is with a change of address. He's got us as far as he can take us for now. His style of coaching just isn't working for these "kids" anymore.

Jeff Van Gundy led the Rockets to the playoffs every year, but we couldn't
get out of the first round. It was always "next year." Jeff did all he could,
but it was once we brought in Rick Adelman we could go on a 22 game win
streak, and get OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND!

Same talent, different coach, better results. This Rockets team is LESS
talented than they were in previous years, yet they are competitive NOT
by losing close, but WINNING GAMES!!

Please...

Competitive = WINNING GAMES!

Losing Close = Losing Big = LOSING!!!

Scooter
12-12-2009, 11:30 AM
c'mon dex, the rockets are a horrid example. morey as much as anybody has made our success with the smart roster building - which is where most of the kubiak compliments come from. it wasnt until we filled the holes with scola, landry, brooks, artest, wafer, and lowry that we made it out of the first round.

same talent different results? for a 10 man roster, that's not even close.

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 11:33 AM
c'mon dex, the rockets are a horrid example. morey as much as anybody has made our success with the smart roster building - which is where most of the kubiak compliments come from. it wasnt until we filled the holes with scola, landry, brooks, artest, wafer, and lowry that we made it out of the first round.

same talent different results? for a 10 man roster, that's not even close.

Smart roster building, cheap players, who play better because of GREAT
COACHING.

There is a parallel. Adelman is a PROVEN COMMODITY as a COACH. He's
taken a roster that does NOT level in the top ten in talent, and has installed
a team that wins more than it loses. Gary Kubiak is a likeable guy, but he's
never proven ANYTHING as a coach in the NFL. How many mulligans does
the guy get here?

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 11:36 AM
c'mon dex, the rockets are a horrid example. morey as much as anybody has made our success with the smart roster building - which is where most of the kubiak compliments come from. it wasnt until we filled the holes with scola, landry, brooks, artest, wafer, and lowry that we made it out of the first round.

same talent different results? for a 10 man roster, that's not even close.

Who's the blue chipper in that group? It was the coaching that got them
over-the-top, for the most part WITHOUT Yao OR McGrady.

dc_txtech
12-12-2009, 11:43 AM
[QUOTE=DexmanC;1314889]I was just as pissed as everyone here Sunday afternoon, but I chose not
to open my bar of pink soap just yet. Hear me out. This team finished 8-8
over the last two season, but in a lot of their losses prior to this season,
they were blown off the field. This year, they seem like a team that's
fumbling for a winning formula, but have yet to strike 'Eureka!'

In spite of having a rookie OC, and a rookie DC, this team looks like
it has the ability to whip any team on their schedule. Before this season,
we were hoping they could just 'hang with' the big boys. This is the first
time they've proven to themselves they really could play with ANYBODY. QUOTE]

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67573

Man, people sure can change their tune quickly.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 11:47 AM
smart roster building - check
cheap players - check
playing better because of coaching - the only reason we even have these playoffs or bust expectations are because of how well such a young team has been coached up

never proven anything in the nfl? after taking over playcalling duties has 2 superbowl rings and is in the midst of his 4th season as head coach of his first opportunity. we didnt exactly hire chuck knoll here. what muligans? at what point is anyone asking to start over or rebuild or correct anything? the "keep him" crowd is focused on his progression, and where i think that progression will lead us next season and the next.

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 11:47 AM
[QUOTE=DexmanC;1314889]I was just as pissed as everyone here Sunday afternoon, but I chose not
to open my bar of pink soap just yet. Hear me out. This team finished 8-8
over the last two season, but in a lot of their losses prior to this season,
they were blown off the field. This year, they seem like a team that's
fumbling for a winning formula, but have yet to strike 'Eureka!'

In spite of having a rookie OC, and a rookie DC, this team looks like
it has the ability to whip any team on their schedule. Before this season,
we were hoping they could just 'hang with' the big boys. This is the first
time they've proven to themselves they really could play with ANYBODY. QUOTE]

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67573

Man, people sure can change their tune quickly.

When you're lead to believe fire is cold, then you touch it, you come
to understand the truth very quickly. I've already explained that multiple
times.

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 11:55 AM
smart roster building - check
cheap players - check
playing better because of coaching - the only reason we even have these playoffs or bust expectations are because of how well such a young team has been coached up

never proven anything in the nfl? after taking over playcalling duties has 2 superbowl rings and is in the midst of his 4th season as head coach of his first opportunity. we didnt exactly hire chuck knoll here. what muligans? at what point is anyone asking to start over or rebuild or correct anything? the "keep him" crowd is focused on his progression, and where i think that progression will lead us next season and the next.

They've won the same amount of games vs. .500 or better teams for the
last four years running. We slap the Raiders and Bills around pretty good,
and pee our pants against the Titans, Colts, Jags (Who lost to the Seahawks
by 41,) Jets (How were they coached up, when they looked like they'd
forgotten how to play football.)

We're moving in place, folks. Improving in some areas, regressing at the
SAME RATE we've progressed in other areas. Better road team, worse home
team. Better defense, regressed offense. Less quarterback turnovers, more
runningback turnovers.

Better coaching? At least Van Gundy knew to get the ball to his best weapon
Better coaching? We can't throw a fade to Dre in the redzone? Our
personnel is made for zone blocking, yet we take Dre off the field, tighten
the formation at the one yardline, and dare the Cardinals (#1 run defense
in the NFL at the time) to stop us from running it up the gut with Chris
Brown?) How can our headcoach get better at his job, when he's too
stubborn to effectively correct his mistakes?

There ARE better coaches in the NFL better than Gary Kubiak. Which one
is it? That's what the interview process is for. Maybe, this time, Bob will
interview more than 3 candidates.

Redtexan#34
12-12-2009, 11:58 AM
Everyone is pointing out the recent success of new coaches and total overhaul with regards to Systems offensive and defensive, see Denver. I am not saying it is not possible but one thing people on this board are taking for granted is assuming we can fill wholes utilizing free agents. Here is a link about the current state of negotiations between the union and league regarding the CBA http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/12/league-union-back-at-the-bargaining-table/ . If there is no CBA there will be 200 less free agents on the market. The only good thing for the Texans is it will reduce the number of our own free agents that the club will need to worry about signing. I agree with vinny who posted in another thread that McNair is totally going to David Carr the Kubiak situation and he will return. I hope an agreement on a new CBA is reached or we can forget about Hampton are any other big name free agent.

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 12:08 PM
The sadist in me wants Bob to keep Gary here, only because I know the
fan base at Reliant won't stand for his "Mediocre is improvement" act any longer.
If Bob McNair is blind and deaf, Gary Kubiak will be your coach in 2010.

TEXANRED
12-12-2009, 12:08 PM
:bravo:

Great Post Grams. Most people on here or too young or have forgot or just refuse to acknowledge the facts of the NFL. Do you remember the Oilers of '64-'74 that went a combined 49-102-5? Or the Oilers of '82-'86 that went 16-49?




And we went through a coach a year too.

Bum Phillips went 11-5 in his first year with the Oilers.

Jerry Glanville got us to the playoffs in his second year of coaching.

I don't think you can say that we are in the same situation now. Bud would of fired Kubes by now. Bud fires coachs until he gets the right one unlike McNair who take the Bengals aproach. Keep the coach around till his contract is up cus he doesnt want to pay a guy if he in not employed with the team.

Vinny
12-12-2009, 12:10 PM
:bravo:

Great Post Grams. Most people on here or too young or have forgot or just refuse to acknowledge the facts of the NFL. Do you remember the Oilers of '64-'74 that went a combined 49-102-5? Or the Oilers of '82-'86 that went 16-49?


Or how about the Saints that waited 13 years for their first non-losing season? And 21 years for their first winning season?

Or Tampa Bay that had 15 straight losing seasons from '82-'96?

Or the Cardinals that went from '85-'97 with only one .500 season ('94) in that span?

The instant gratification syndrome has totally spoiled many things...not least of all sports fans.
Your also talking about a league before the salary cap and player movement via FA for the most part. That's why it is so rare to see a team not make the playoffs for 8 years anymore. The Cardinals were a league joke for a long time, as were the Bengals and the Saints. Nobody respected those organizations during those periods.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 12:13 PM
The sadist in me wants Bob to keep Gary here, only because I know the
fan base at Reliant won't stand for his "Mediocre is improvement" act any longer.
If Bob McNair is blind and deaf, Gary Kubiak will be your coach in 2010.

hang on, i'm getting the impression you dont want kubiak here next season? :toast2:

Vinny
12-12-2009, 12:14 PM
hang on, i'm getting the impression you dont want kubiak here next season? :toast2:

he'll change his mind this week. He should have a pair of flip-flops in his avatar.

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 12:17 PM
hang on, i'm getting the impression you dont want kubiak here next season? :toast2:

I started my phrase "THE SADIST IN ME." Meaning: The part of me
that likes to see things go to shit. Meaning: If Kubes comes back next year,
and this team plays like it ALWAYS HAS under his command, Reliant is gonna
be ROCKIN,' and NOT in a good way.

eriadoc
12-12-2009, 12:19 PM
If the shoe fits

That doesn't answer the very simple question I asked. I'll break it down like I'm talking to a simpleton - in order for there to be fair weather fans, there needs to have been some fair weather at some point. My very simple and direct question to you is this:

When was the fair weather?

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 12:22 PM
he'll change his mind this week. He should have a pair of flip-flops in his avatar.

I came to a realization, and have not gone back-and-forth. As I've said.
I was lead to believe that fire was cold, and bought the Texans' marketing
lock, stock, and barrel. After I looked deeper than 8-8, I was able to see
the truth. I've stated my reasons behind my understanding very clearly, and
at times, ad nauseum.

:texan:

TEXANRED
12-12-2009, 12:23 PM
When was the fair weather?

When we beat Dallas.

After that its pretty much sucked.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 12:24 PM
I started my phrase "THE SADIST IN ME." Meaning: The part of me
that likes to see things go to shit. Meaning: If Kubes comes back next year,
and this team plays like it ALWAYS HAS under his command, Reliant is gonna
be ROCKIN,' and NOT in a good way.

sarcasm still doesnt work well in text. :cow:

Maddict5
12-12-2009, 12:28 PM
The sadist in me wants Bob to keep Gary here, only because I know the
fan base at Reliant won't stand for his "Mediocre is improvement" act any longer.
If Bob McNair is blind and deaf, Gary Kubiak will be your coach in 2010.

im still :spit: looking at your post history.


http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt288/Maddict5/SMH.gif

and it would be alot easier for mcnair to please the loudest fans and fire kubiak after this year. however, as evidenced by the reggie bush decision, pleasing the majority of fans isnt his his principle concern thank god. i believe mcnair will be strong enough to make what i believe is the right decision and give kubiak one more year

Maddict5
12-12-2009, 12:35 PM
he'll change his mind this week. He should have a pair of flip-flops in his avatar.

lol glad im not the only one that noticed it. credibility is not his friend

TEXANRED
12-12-2009, 12:37 PM
im still :spit: looking at your post history.


http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt288/Maddict5/SMH.gif

and it would be alot easier for mcnair to please the loudest fans and fire kubiak after this year. however, as evidenced by the reggie bush decision, pleasing the majority of fans isnt his his principle concern thank god. i believe mcnair will be strong enough to make what i believe is the right decision and give kubiak one more year

And if it would please the court to go ahead and sign him to an extension after he calls another half back pass when at the 9 yard line. Or sign him to an extension after he wins his second challenge of the year. Or maybe after the team plays one game for a full 60 minutes. If only we could play Detroit. (whats that? we did? they came back on us too? Damn.)

GuerillaBlack
12-12-2009, 12:38 PM
It took him (Cowher) 14 years.

*****************

As I mentioned earlier in this thread or another Cowher inherited a hell of defense too, Rod Woodson, Greg LLoyd, Hardy Nickerson and Carnell Lake to name a few.

And? How long did it take him to make it to Super Bowl 30? Four years?

houstonspartan
12-12-2009, 12:39 PM
I'll be breif to the point, I think the hometown bias still swings my boat. I would hate to see him leave, go somewhere else then start winning these close games. Imagine the whining then, "oh how did we let him leave, we should never have let that happen", talk when he coaches another cities team to a Superbowl. no thanks :snowday:

I am going to pretend I did not just read that.

If Gary goes somewhere else and has great success, I'd be happy for him. I like him.

But I'm amazed that you're not seeing the other side of this equation. It's also very possible - and likely - that a new coach could come in here, build on what Gary built, and get us going to the playoffs really fast.

When the Texans go to the Super Bowl, it will be because coach X came in and used Gary's system. And we'll have the same debates they've been having about Tampa and Pittsburg for the last few years.

Geez, I'm amazed at how dense some of us are being. Fear of the unknown is really working a number on this fanbase.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 01:17 PM
I am going to pretend I did not just read that.

If Gary goes somewhere else and has great success, I'd be happy for him. I like him.

But I'm amazed that you're not seeing the other side of this equation. It's also very possible - and likely - that a new coach could come in here, build on what Gary built, and get us going to the playoffs really fast.

When the Texans go to the Super Bowl, it will be because coach X came in and used Gary's system. And we'll have the same debates they've been having about Tampa and Pittsburg for the last few years.

Geez, I'm amazed at how dense some of us are being. Fear of the unknown is really working a number on this fanbase.

for every "fear of the unknown", there's as much or more "the grass is greener". even the heavy kubiak supporters like myself believe that a new coach (within reason - i'd love to get cowher) will get us over the hump, and that's because of where kubiak's gotten us. we are one play, one lucky break, one injury, one player away from all of these talks disappearing entirely with kubiak as coach. mario and demeco gave us that push, schaub and daniels gave us that push, brown and slaton gave us that push, cushing and pollard are giving us that push ... why wont the next (especially with kubiak on the hotseat, finally going after a true elite veteran) give us the last nudge over the hump? a new coach is likely to do that ... and just as likely to punt us back to square 1 shortly afterward. kubiak's pushed this franchise up the hill, and it's been an exceptionally heavy burden for a first time coach (49 player turnover without veterans, purging contracts, and staying within the draft), but i'm confident that when we begin our reign - kubiak will be our best chance to succeed with the "kids" that grew up under him.

DexmanC
12-12-2009, 01:19 PM
15-pages long, and we've now established that if one were to go on
emprical data alone, there's little to no justification to keeping Kubiak
here. Knowing this, the "Pro-Keep-Kubiakers" have no data to substantiate
their reasoning, so they respond by directly attacking the "Anti-Keep-Kubiakers."

In summary:

Kubiak should go because: "We want to make the playoffs. The team doesn't
win games when the whole world expects them to. The team blows big games,
no matter the size of the lead. They don't win in the division, etc."

Kubiak should stay because: "I don't have any data to back my beliefs, so
I'm just gonna try to discredit you."


This is the same tactic the FBI used on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.
Religions use the same tactic as well (My God is better than your God.) I'm
very aware of it. Either way, free thinkers are always in search of the
truth no matter the source. I'll see you guys in four weeks. I'm sure
the discussion will be alive and kickin'.

houstonspartan
12-12-2009, 01:23 PM
for every "fear of the unknown", there's as much or more "the grass is greener". even the heavy kubiak supporters like myself believe that a new coach (within reason - i'd love to get cowher) will get us over the hump, and that's because of where kubiak's gotten us. we are one play, one lucky break, one injury, one player away from all of these talks disappearing entirely with kubiak as coach. mario and demeco gave us that push, schaub and daniels gave us that push, brown and slaton gave us that push, cushing and pollard are giving us that push ... why wont the next (especially with kubiak on the hotseat, finally going after a true elite veteran) give us the last nudge over the hump? a new coach is likely to do that ... and just as likely to punt us back to square 1 shortly afterward. kubiak's pushed this franchise up the hill, and it's been an exceptionally heavy burden for a first time coach (49 player turnover without veterans, purging contracts, and staying within the draft), but i'm confident that when we begin our reign - kubiak will be our best chance to succeed with the "kids" that grew up under him.

Are you kidding me?

"The grass is greener?" No one is using that argument. We are discussing FACTS. A lot of people who want a new coach are arguing FACTS. Those who want him to stay are arguing emotions.

Hell, read your responses in this post. You talk in platitutes about how we're "one player away" and "one lucky break" away.

That's bullshit talk. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Do you not understand what a blown opportunity this season has been? We had the NFC WEST, for petes sake. My 10 year old nephew could beat them.

Guess who we have next year? The NFC EAST. Know what that means? Dallas, NY Giants, Philly, etc. REAL teams. Next year is going to be 10 times harder than this year.

dc_txtech
12-12-2009, 01:35 PM
15-pages long, and we've now established that if one were to go on
emprical data alone, there's little to no justification to keeping Kubiak
here. Knowing this, the "Pro-Keep-Kubiakers" have no data to substantiate
their reasoning, so they respond by directly attacking the "Anti-Keep-Kubiakers."

In summary:

Kubiak should go because: "We want to make the playoffs. The team doesn't
win games when the whole world expects them to. The team blows big games,
no matter the size of the lead. They don't win in the division, etc."

Kubiak should stay because: "I don't have any data to back my beliefs, so
I'm just gonna try to discredit you."


This is the same tactic the FBI used on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.
Religions use the same tactic as well (My God is better than your God.) I'm
very aware of it. Either way, free thinkers are always in search of the
truth no matter the source. I'll see you guys in four weeks. I'm sure
the discussion will be alive and kickin'.

You have got to be kidding me? Scoot wrote a very good post a couple of pages back.

instant offense - i find it extremely difficult to believe many coaches could come in and get as much or more from our players without spending so much that it'd strangle other areas. even with kubiak we need 2 interior offensive linemen, a runningback (gerhart?), an upgrade at starting receiver (shipley?), and without kubiak coaching up orlovsky the next couple of years we'd need to sign or draft another quarterback. is another coach going to get a top 5 offense from this group even if everybody's healthy?

improvement - in every area but the one that matters (wins). talent, defense, and staff have improved each season. the defense has taken a huge step in several areas. many are calling for gibbs to call it quits, and we've got matthews ready to take over. bush in his first year has worked well, and lil shanahan is only going to improve.

youth - every team in the nfl talks about building through the draft, and kubiak's done exactly that. it may get him fired, but texans fans should be greatful our baseline mirrors the steelers or patriots of a decade (or more) ago as opposed to throwing money at possibilities like the redskins. if we're going to build exclusively through the draft and young free agents, we WILL be inconsistant. it beats the heck out of putting all of our eggs in sharper and glenn and coleman and payne and wade and (and and and) hoping to win with a very small window of opportunity.

building from the inside out - sure not all has worked as intended but it isnt for a lack of effort. kubiak's drafted spencer, winston, brown, caldwell, mario, okoye, and barwin as first day picks (missing two seconds in the last 3 seasons). we've also gone after hopeful or focused pieces such as studdard, okam, weaver, smith, robinson, cody, and an excess of walk-ons - many currently playing key roles. by conventional wisdom, kubiak's doing it exactly right and will see those fruits in the near future.

potential - similar to the draft, this is an area that could be the end of kubiak's tenure. many, if not most, of our draft picks and signings are based on what they'll do 2 to 5 years down the road. so many of our players, even the perceived busts, still have so much time to boom before they even mature. altering that progression could be detrimental and possibly disastrous when staying the course with coaches who know these guys is more likely to get better results.

developement - not perfect, but if we're going to expect the youngest starting lineup in the nfl to be in the playoffs, we cant ignore how they got to that position. some progress, some regress, some are going through both (as with all teams), but under kubiak we've seen a lot more of the former. mario, demeco, slaton, schaub, daniels, cushing, and pollard have all had probowl calibre seasons under kubiak with schaub being the old man at 28. with our offensive success, brown will also be mentioned before long.

competitiveness - outside of the jets, there hasnt been a game this season that we werent there to win. we didnt go in unprepared or unmotivated (see steelers), and whether up against indy or down against arizona the texans have given what they have. as with every cliche in football, we've been one break away from having secured a playoff spot at this point. we're SO dang close SO dang often - a couple more players can push us over that hill, a new coaching staff could go either direction.

consistancy - bob mcnair's great flaw. we need time to gel. we need to execute. UGH! yeah i think i'm bleeding out of the ears just writing that but it doesnt take away their truths. our offensive line stayed healthy last season and propelled slaton to what should've been a probowl birth, the runaway #1 receiver in the league, and a top 5 offense. that kind of cohesiveness, especially in a growing organization that is on a forward path (unlike capers' aging and declining path), will continue to build upon itsself. studdard and white and caldwell and barwin and pollard and cushing and quinn and jacoby are getting their first real reps this season - their familiarity next season whether as backups or starters will greatly improve our abilities along with kubiak and his staff's ability to adjust with them.

That was followed up with this comment.

Sorry, but I have to toss a cup of bullshit juice all over your long post.

You use a lot of words that this regime is used to using - potential, youth, etc - but you forgot about one thing: Wins.

Sorry, but four years is enough time.

Next.

Basically anybody who doesn't see things your way is wrong Dex. That's what I'm getting out of your posts, and I realize that wasn't you that I quoted. The truth of the matter is none of us know whether Kubiak will return or whether he will be successful. Nobody has a crystal ball, we could win the Super Bowl with or without Kubiak next year or we could go 2-14 with or without Kubiak next year. Nobody is right or wrong in this thread.

hradhak
12-12-2009, 01:37 PM
I am still on the fence about getting rid of Kubiak, I go back and forth about 20 times per day. There are things that irritate me about Kubiak's coaching style. He has shown that he doesn't know how to manage the clock and he has had trouble preparing his team for games. At the same time, he has taken a team with almost no talent and made them respectable He has made some huge advancements with the offense. When the offense looks good they look like the Colts, but at the same time they look so bad sometimes that they resemble the 2-14 Texans of a few years ago. I don't know that getting rid of him is going to fix all of the problems that we have. But I think in the prior 3 years we have won as many games as we could with the team we fielded. This year I think he has left some games on the table, but that is part of his growth as well as our players. I think he warrants one more year just to see if this year was an aberration.

houstonspartan
12-12-2009, 01:40 PM
You have got to be kidding me? Scoot wrote a very good post a couple of pages back.



That was followed up with this comment.



Basically anybody who doesn't see things your way is wrong Dex. That's what I'm getting out of your posts, and I realize that wasn't you that I quoted. The truth of the matter is none of us know whether Kubiak will return or whether he will be successful. Nobody has a crystal ball, we could win the Super Bowl with or without Kubiak next year or we could go 2-14 with or without Kubiak next year. Nobody is right or wrong in this thread.

Uh, Scooters email was filled with generalizations. Those of us who want Kubiak gone have been arguing in facts. No, I didn't put any hard numbers in my response, because I assumed everyone knew them already.

But, a refresher course: 5-7. 1-5 against the division this year. 5-16 (or something like that) against the division over four years. He's won, what, two coaches challenges in the last four years?

The clock management. The halfback pass. Keeping Chris Brown as the runner.

Do you not get it?

Texecutioner
12-12-2009, 01:44 PM
On offense, I'm hopeful that Alex Gibbs will be gone and the running game will be addressed with more open minds. They need to incorporate some counter-action in their run game, as well as draw plays, etc.. I'm also hopeful that they will work to improve the interior OL depth and RB situation.

Defensively, other than some upgrades at DT and maybe CB, as well as safety depth, I think an off-season for all those young guys will allow Frank Bush to incorporate a little more disguise in the coverages and blitzes. Basicly, though, just continuing to build on this season.

I think this team will be able to close games out much better if it gets a good running game. I don't think Kubiak has the mindset to blow people away with a pass-dominate offense. So, if this team is going to make real noise next season, the running game has gotta be fixed!

This up here ^^^^ is no different than the types of stuff that you were so arrogantly trying to tell me before "last season" when I didn't agree that Rick Smith needed an extension so soon after doing nothing really. I got killed in here for being against that, and you acted like I was a fool for not believing in Kubes or Smith. Here is a small piece where you acted as if the Texans were going to easily win 10 games before last season under Kubes.


Dale Murphy wrote:
What holes? Every hole on this team has been significantly addressed. Now, does that mean that Okam, CThompson, Bentley are going to collectively solve our poor run defense? NO... Is it very possible that those guys will? YES.

The same thing can be said at RB, CB, S, OT, OL in general, and DE.

What holes do you know about that will keep this team from winning ten games?

1. You know that CBrown, AGreen, CTaylor, Slaton will fail to improve the running game behind Alex Gibbs?

2. You know that Gibbs will be unable to improve the general OL play and that Duane Brown will not be a good LT?

3. You know that Schaub won't improve on a very promising first season starting at QB and/or he'll be unable to stay healthy?

4. You know that the addition of Okam and Colvin, along with the growth of players like Okoye, Mario, Bullman won't be enough to create a pass rush or stop the run?

5. You know that Zac Diles, Thompson, Bentley, Adibi won't improve the LB play?

6. You know that Dunta won't come back healthy. And, if he does, you know Reeves will be a bust, Molden will be a bust, Bennett won't improve, and nobody else will step up at CB?

7. You know that having Demps at safety for a full season won't matter, and that Brandon Harrison, Brandon Mitchell, D. Barber, G.Earl- among others are all going to fail to improve the safety position?


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51136&page=4

dalemurphy
12-12-2009, 01:53 PM
15-pages long, and we've now established that if one were to go on
emprical data alone, there's little to no justification to keeping Kubiak
here. Knowing this, the "Pro-Keep-Kubiakers" have no data to substantiate
their reasoning, so they respond by directly attacking the "Anti-Keep-Kubiakers."

.


Once again, read Texan Chick's article from football outsiders about "DVOA", if you are interested in empirical data. There has been dramatic improvement based on that measurement.

dalemurphy
12-12-2009, 01:58 PM
This up here ^^^^ is no different than the types of stuff that you were so arrogantly trying to tell me before "last season" when I didn't agree that Rick Smith needed an extension so soon after doing nothing really. I got killed in here for being against that, and you acted like I was a fool for not believing in Kubes or Smith. Here is a small piece where you acted as if the Texans were going to easily win 10 games before last season under Kubes.


Dale Murphy wrote:
What holes? Every hole on this team has been significantly addressed. Now, does that mean that Okam, CThompson, Bentley are going to collectively solve our poor run defense? NO... Is it very possible that those guys will? YES.

The same thing can be said at RB, CB, S, OT, OL in general, and DE.

What holes do you know about that will keep this team from winning ten games?

1. You know that CBrown, AGreen, CTaylor, Slaton will fail to improve the running game behind Alex Gibbs?

2. You know that Gibbs will be unable to improve the general OL play and that Duane Brown will not be a good LT?

3. You know that Schaub won't improve on a very promising first season starting at QB and/or he'll be unable to stay healthy?

4. You know that the addition of Okam and Colvin, along with the growth of players like Okoye, Mario, Bullman won't be enough to create a pass rush or stop the run?

5. You know that Zac Diles, Thompson, Bentley, Adibi won't improve the LB play?

6. You know that Dunta won't come back healthy. And, if he does, you know Reeves will be a bust, Molden will be a bust, Bennett won't improve, and nobody else will step up at CB?

7. You know that having Demps at safety for a full season won't matter, and that Brandon Harrison, Brandon Mitchell, D. Barber, G.Earl- among others are all going to fail to improve the safety position?


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51136&page=4


I'm not sure what your point is... I was arguing that your pessimism after the '07 season was unwarranted. I think the team has taken a lot of steps forward and improved a great deal.

I'm not sure how it's arrogant to make the argument that none of us know how things are going to turn out. I guess that's what you think of someone who disagrees with you. They must be arrogant to not accept your assertions without question.

Texecutioner
12-12-2009, 02:12 PM
I'm not sure what your point is... I was arguing that your pessimism after the '07 season was unwarranted. I think the team has taken a lot of steps forward and improved a great deal.

I'm not sure how it's arrogant to make the argument that none of us know how things are going to turn out. I guess that's what you think of someone who disagrees with you. They must be arrogant to not accept your assertions without question.

No, the arrogance came from a few of the insults you flung at me at the time for not thinking that it was a good decision to extend Smith at the time and not thinking that Kubiak was a great coach after two seasons of him going 6-10 and 8-8. I wasn't all giddy about the team's chances of a winning season last year before the season started and you just couldn't understand why or how anyone could question the almighty Kubiak. Hell you didn't even think we had holes on the team before the 08 season last year. If you weren't so busy trying to accuse everyone of being a pessimistic fan all the time simply because they're making their own realistic evaluations, then maybe your difference of opinion wouldn't come off that way. Some people don't just have confidence in a guy and drink the Kool Aid right away just because people have been hired by Bob Mcnair. A lot of us have seen flaws in Kubiak since day one, and then some others had confidence and eventually grew tired of the inefficiencies after while, and then some people won't ever let go of their faith in Kubiak no matter what happens with this team.

People aren't doom and gloomers and pessimists just because they don't feel optimism just to feel it. You've been shoving Kubes down our throats as this great coach pretty hard for some time now, and most of your predictions regarding him have not been correct. At some point it's time to let go.

barrett
12-12-2009, 02:13 PM
I'm not sure how 4 years equates to "instant gratification", but I do understand that 4 years is a long time period in the NFL. The average NFL career is less than 4 years. Most NFL player contracts are 4 years or less. A team has to be built in less than 4 years, or the players you are building around will be gone. That's just the reality that is the NFL. Great organizations realize this and constantly reload their talent. While winning.

Regarding the "improvement every year", well I don't see it. It is not indicated by the standings. Or the games. Whether a loss is by 30 or 3, it's a loss. I was much more impressed by the Texans 2007 8-8 record than anything Kubiak's teams have produced since. In 2007, the Texans battled major injuries to the QB and their All Pro WR, yet still played to a .500 record. Since then, the Texans have found ways to lose games versus good teams. No, they haven't been blown out as much as they were in the past. Yes, they seem very close to beating these teams. It's just that some of us feel the missing ingredient isn't a couple of players. It's the man coaching these players.

Found a minor crack in the foundation of your argument. You apparently failed to watch the next two seasons, severely distorting your view of the teams progress.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 02:18 PM
Are you kidding me?

"The grass is greener?" No one is using that argument. We are discussing FACTS. A lot of people who want a new coach are arguing FACTS. Those who want him to stay are arguing emotions.

Hell, read your responses in this post. You talk in platitutes about how we're "one player away" and "one lucky break" away.

That's bullshit talk. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Do you not understand what a blown opportunity this season has been? We had the NFC WEST, for petes sake. My 10 year old nephew could beat them.

Guess who we have next year? The NFC EAST. Know what that means? Dallas, NY Giants, Philly, etc. REAL teams. Next year is going to be 10 times harder than this year.

Uh, Scooters email was filled with generalizations. Those of us who want Kubiak gone have been arguing in facts. No, I didn't put any hard numbers in my response, because I assumed everyone knew them already.

But, a refresher course: 5-7. 1-5 against the division this year. 5-16 (or something like that) against the division over four years. He's won, what, two coaches challenges in the last four years?

The clock management. The halfback pass. Keeping Chris Brown as the runner.

Do you not get it?

consecutive posts you've mentioned facts. we havent had the wins needed. now that i've eliminated your one and only fact ... which others am i missing? this was our season because of the schedule ... fact? (we're 1-1 against the NFC West, the loss being a player failure against the 8-4 cardinals). next season will be more difficult because you see the future ... fact? colts have a hb pass for touchdown and interception, we have one for interception so that makes it moronic ... fact? kubiak is the problem ... fact? a new coach (to be named later) is going to be an improvement ... fact?

FACT - we've brought in named coaches in key roles
FACT - we've produced probowl players at nearly every general position in kubiak's tenture
FACT - we've been one of the top ranking offenses in the past 3 seasons
FACT - we've moved up into a mid ranking defense despite giving away our first 3 games, including an extended stretch as the top run defense in the nfl
FACT - we are the youngest starting roster in the nfl
FACT - we're recognized around league publications as a team that is both unlucky and poised to break through at any moment
FACT - we are under the salary cap, with room to make a necessary splash if the opportunity presents

make a point if you're going to. you've neither explained why kubiak isnt likely to get us over the hump, nor offered an alternative. raising the bullshit flag with nothing more than regurgitated win/loss totals that everyone here has seen aint exactly doing much. put a fact out to why we're where we are, and why we should move in a certain direction.

TEXANRED
12-12-2009, 03:14 PM
No, the arrogance came from a few of the insults you flung at me at the time for not thinking that it was a good decision to extend Smith at the time and not thinking that Kubiak was a great coach after two seasons of him going 6-10 and 8-8. I wasn't all giddy about the team's chances of a winning season last year before the season started and you just couldn't understand why or how anyone could question the almighty Kubiak. Hell you didn't even think we had holes on the team before the 08 season last year. If you weren't so busy trying to accuse everyone of being a pessimistic fan all the time simply because they're making their own realistic evaluations, then maybe your difference of opinion wouldn't come off that way. Some people don't just have confidence in a guy and drink the Kool Aid right away just because people have been hired by Bob Mcnair. A lot of us have seen flaws in Kubiak since day one, and then some others had confidence and eventually grew tired of the inefficiencies after while, and then some people won't ever let go of their faith in Kubiak no matter what happens with this team.

People aren't doom and gloomers and pessimists just because they don't feel optimism just to feel it. You've been shoving Kubes down our throats as this great coach pretty hard for some time now, and most of your predictions regarding him have not been correct. At some point it's time to let go.

I haven't read your post. Just wanted to give you props on the banner.

Its not going to happen, but damn nice banner.

Texecutioner
12-12-2009, 03:28 PM
I haven't read your post. Just wanted to give you props on the banner.

Its not going to happen, but damn nice banner.

Thanks, but I can't fully accept the props on it. Those props go to Brakos. He made it, and I told him that I liked it, and he was ever nice enough to resize it for me so I could sport it here at TT.

mussop
12-12-2009, 03:41 PM
win in spite of his decisions? ask yourself honestly, where would we be at this point with the texans without kubiak's decisions? if you'll recall, kubiak spent his first 2 seasons eliminating those badass contracts, another removing sherman's additions (which i admit had me fooled), and building through the draft ... and as the offensive guru projected to be has made us a top tier offense without any wasted motions. that speaks to me of good decisions. a half-back pass is just plain dumb (but the chargers and colts have done it successfully), starting brown when slaton's fumbling is a no-win situation, and many more are poor decisions - but these are not big picture and not what a coach's tenure can be based on.

kubiak should ...

coach the offense ... top 10 the last three seasons
acquire talent ... being frustrated by our results speaks for itsself (or we could be celebrating our superbowl 2nd win of the season against the steelers)
surround himself with good coaches ... gibbs, rhodes, matthews, shanahan, bush, and marciano (and sherman who should actually take a year off of kubiak's tenure)
prepare and motivate ... we're 1 play or kick per game away from 10 wins to this point, maybe 11.
manage the roster ... after a 2 year purge we have the youngest and one of the most feared starting lineups in football without having to spend to do so (our potentially bad contracts are orlovsky and smith ... cap hell!)
develope talent ... mario, demeco, cushing, brown, slaton, winston, daniels, schaub, quinn, spencer, adibi, diles (i can keep going if you want).

kubiak's decisions, in my opinion, are in line with what will make us successful in the long term - and if replaced the next head coach will have struck a gold mine. why would cowher be attracted to the texans as opposed to the more popular raiders or home town panthers or savior of the lions or every other opportunity? we are attractive because of the perception that kubiak's done everything to get us here, but another coach (even proven winners) will be able to get more out of a young team without on-field leadership. why should another coach get to finish what kubiak's started? and make no mistake, we've just started ... i've said it over and over ... when this houston texans team hits their prime (when our starting lineup is atleast 27 years old) we'll be a juggernaut.



This post is so bad Im not sure where to begin. I'll start with
win in spite of his decisions? ask yourself honestly, where would we be at this point with the texans without kubiak's decisions?

Honestly? We woud be alot better off. This thread is pepperd with facts showing the plethera of mistakes Kubiak has made and continues to make over and over for the las 4 years.

if you'll recall, kubiak spent his first 2 seasons eliminating those badass contracts, another removing sherman's additions (which i admit had me fooled), and building through the draft ...
So know you are going to give him credit for Rick
Smiths job?

and as the offensive guru projected to be has made us a top tier offense without any wasted motions. that speaks to me of good decisions.

The run and shoot was top 5 every year, did it get them anywhere?

a half-back pass is just plain dumb (but the chargers and colts have done it successfully), starting brown when slaton's fumbling is a no-win situation, and many more are poor decisions - but these are not big picture and not what a coach's tenure can be based on.

Here you admit a few of the many poor coaching decisions yet you say that isnt what a coaches tenure is based on? Actually it is combined with wins and losses.

kubiak should ...

coach the offense ... top 10 the last three seasons

Im so sick of seeing this worthlesss stat. Moving the ball between the 20's doesnt mean shit if you dont get points to go along with it. In 2007 we finished 12th in scoring offense with 379 points, in 2008 17th place scoring 366 points, in 2009 so far we are 14th scoring 277points. And where is your great offense when its really needed most? It sure isnt scoring and winning close games. In scoring we have been average just like Kubiaks coaching abilities and our Win Loss record.

acquire talent ... being frustrated by our results speaks for itsself (or we could be celebrating our superbowl 2nd win of the season against the steelers)

I dont even comprehen this jiberish.

surround himself with good coaches ... gibbs, rhodes, matthews, shanahan, bush, and marciano (and sherman who should actually take a year off of kubiak's tenure)

Matthews is a gofer and hasnt proved anything to be considered a good coach. Marciano's special teams are one of the highest penalized teams in the NFL, Gibbs coaches a scheme full time that only wortks in the open feild and obviously cant adjust to any other style, Rhodes, do I really need to say anything regarding the coaching of our secondary? I dont really understand teh Sherman coment.

prepare and motivate ...

Prepare? Are you kidding? Motivate? Again are you kidding?

we're 1 play or kick per game away from 10 wins to this point, maybe 11.

This is the most over used BS by the pro Kubiak groupies. Lets recap

wk 1 we get our asses kicked bad by a rookie HC and QB.
wk 2 we squeek out a victory, Collins dropped the ball at the end.
wk 3 we have a chance to TIE at the end NOT WIN, TIE. Even if Brown doesnt fumble does he get in? Doubtfull.
wk 4 we play Oakland big win yippe.
wk 5 the tale of two halfs. we play great in the first half and Kubiaks poor game adjustments, motivational skills and all around coaching skills are exposed in the second half as we piss away the good play and loose.
wk 6 the only complete game we play all year. Just a few more of these type games and we arent having this disscussion.
wk 7 we sqweek out a victory but our coaching adjustments are horrible as a second string looser QB almost beats us running the same play for a TD, 3 times in the second half. Same play 3 X for TD!
wk 8 we beat a really bad Buffalo team and look ok doing it.
wk 9 we have a chance to TIE the game(not win tie) but miss a long feild goal following a very questionable coaching call the play before.
wk 10 bye week an extra wk for Kubiak to show his great preperational and motivational skills for an upcoming MNF game against our biggest rival and divisional foe.
wk 11 Kubiaks showcase game, we have a chance to TIE (not win tie) the game with a long 49 yard FG but it sails wide left.
wk 12 we jump out to a 17 point lead and despite Kubiaks great coaching abilities we fall apart and loose the game going away.
wk 13 we have no chance of even trying to score for a win because we cant stop the obvious run.

So where are these imaginary 10 or 11 wins you people keep aluding too? PATHETIC!

manage the roster ... after a 2 year purge we have the youngest and one of the most feared starting lineups in football without having to spend to do so (our potentially bad contracts are orlovsky and smith ... cap hell!)

Once again giving Kubiak credit for Smiths job.

develope talent ... mario, demeco, cushing, brown, slaton, winston, daniels, schaub, quinn, spencer, adibi, diles (i can keep going if you want).

Please do! Please enliighten us how Kubiak has personnally developed the physical freak Mario Williams into nothing more than a speed rusher that runs himself out of the play 90% ofthe time. Please explain how he turned Slaton into fumbling machine or how he developed Cushing or what hes done to make Adibis of Spencers career move along?

kubiak's decisions, in my opinion, are in line with what will make us successful in the long term

SAD!

- and if replaced the next head coach will have struck a gold mine.

There is plenty to be fixed here.

why would cowher be attracted to the texans as opposed to the more popular raiders or home town panthers or savior of the lions or every other opportunity?

Who says he is? Would you want to work for Al Davis? This is really the best you can come up with?

we are attractive because of the perception that kubiak's done everything to get us here,

WHAT?????? phhsss!

but another coach (even proven winners) will be able to get more out of a young team without on-field leadership.

This I have no doubt of.

why should another coach get to finish what kubiak's started?

Because Kubiak hasnt learned from his mistakes over the last 4 years and keeps repeating them.

and make no mistake, we've just started ... i've said it over and over ... when this houston texans team hits their prime (when our starting lineup is atleast 27 years old) we'll be a juggernaut.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! If we get a real HC in here.

Scooter
12-12-2009, 04:19 PM
did you actually dispute anything in there?

yes they would
the run and shoot put up stats
sure we have a top tier offense, and my numbers over 3 seasons show us in the top half in points scored
our wins dont count, our losses could TIE NOT WIN.
credit goes to smith, even before he's there
coaches are bad - like an assistant with head coach experience, a guy who will retire as the best ever at the position, and a hall of famer preparing to teach the positions he played
the mentioned players despite probowl years are the suck and late round picks as quality players are more suck
pssssh, sad, what, huh, honestly?, al davis ...

did i miss anything?

mussop
12-12-2009, 04:33 PM
did you actually dispute anything in there?

yes they would
the run and shoot put up stats
sure we have a top tier offense, and my numbers over 3 seasons show us in the top half in points scored
our wins dont count, our losses could TIE NOT WIN.
credit goes to smith, even before he's there
coaches are bad - like an assistant with head coach experience, a guy who will retire as the best ever at the position, and a hall of famer preparing to teach the positions he played
the mentioned players despite probowl years are the suck and late round picks as quality players are more suck
pssssh, sad, what, huh, honestly?, al davis ...

did i miss anything?

Wow and I thought your last post was bad.
Here let me make it easier for you. Lets start with-

Why are you giving Kubiak credit for Smiths job?

Do you admit Kubiak has made lots of bad personell, in-game and game management decisions?

If so how does that equate to good coaching?

What good is a top 10 YPG offense if it cnt score when the game is on the line?

Please give examples of Kubiak great motivational and preperation skills you speek of.

Please explain how we're 1 play or kick per game away from 10 wins to this point, maybe 11.

Please enliighten us how Kubiak has personnally developed the physical freak Mario Williams into nothing more than a speed rusher that runs himself out of the play 90% ofthe time. Please explain how he turned Slaton into fumbling machine or how he developed Cushing or what hes done to make Adibis or Spencers career move along?

Answer these questions and I will gladly line you out as to why Kubiak is a Bush Leauge coach who is holding this team back. I feel like the cat here :kitten:

Mr. White
12-12-2009, 05:26 PM
Once again, read Texan Chick's article from football outsiders about "DVOA", if you are interested in empirical data. There has been dramatic improvement based on that measurement.

That DVOA stat seems like a reach.

It's significance is lost on me.

Runner
12-12-2009, 06:24 PM
Once again, read Texan Chick's article from football outsiders about "DVOA", if you are interested in empirical data. There has been dramatic improvement based on that measurement.


1) DVOA are just statistics, so they should be looked at like any other stat. Some are good indicators; some are not. None tell the whole story, and I'm sure they aren't the only thing that matters. However, I admit they show improvement, but I'm not sure how important that is. I am sure it isn't the most important thing in measuring a football team's success.

2) The Texans DVOA stats were bad last year, yet still we heard the same type of talk about dramatic improvement after that season. So were they misleading last year or this year? I guess I shouldn't expect consistency from you, since you can feign shock that there are recurring problems and ignore the long list of recurring problems you posted. I haven't got a satisfactory answer for that yet.

3) If the players played so much better (as shown by the DVOA), what held them back from more victories?

=================

That DVOA article came out just in time to give people something to latch on to, that's for sure. How many DVOAs do we need to get in the playoffs?

Runner
12-12-2009, 06:36 PM
hilarious. potd Runner


The coveted Post of the Day! Thanks Vinny, I'm very excited. I think I had one before, but that was two or three years ago.

I changed my avatar to mark the occasion.

houstonspartan
12-12-2009, 08:52 PM
consecutive posts you've mentioned facts. we havent had the wins needed. now that i've eliminated your one and only fact ... which others am i missing? this was our season because of the schedule ... fact? (we're 1-1 against the NFC West, the loss being a player failure against the 8-4 cardinals). next season will be more difficult because you see the future ... fact? colts have a hb pass for touchdown and interception, we have one for interception so that makes it moronic ... fact? kubiak is the problem ... fact? a new coach (to be named later) is going to be an improvement ... fact?

FACT - we've brought in named coaches in key roles
FACT - we've produced probowl players at nearly every general position in kubiak's tenture
FACT - we've been one of the top ranking offenses in the past 3 seasons
FACT - we've moved up into a mid ranking defense despite giving away our first 3 games, including an extended stretch as the top run defense in the nfl
FACT - we are the youngest starting roster in the nfl
FACT - we're recognized around league publications as a team that is both unlucky and poised to break through at any moment
FACT - we are under the salary cap, with room to make a necessary splash if the opportunity presents

make a point if you're going to. you've neither explained why kubiak isnt likely to get us over the hump, nor offered an alternative. raising the bullshit flag with nothing more than regurgitated win/loss totals that everyone here has seen aint exactly doing much. put a fact out to why we're where we are, and why we should move in a certain direction.

You know what, this post was so dumb I'm going to step out of this conversation. You don't think a coach should be judged by wins and losses. Ok, that's all I need to know, Mr. Scooter.

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 12:31 AM
1) DVOA are just statistics, so they should be looked at like any other stat. Some are good indicators; some are not. None tell the whole story, and I'm sure they aren't the only thing that matters. However, I admit they show improvement, but I'm not sure how important that is. I am sure it isn't the most important thing in measuring a football team's success.

2) The Texans DVOA stats were bad last year, yet still we heard the same type of talk about dramatic improvement after that season. So were they misleading last year or this year? I guess I shouldn't expect consistency from you, since you can feign shock that there are recurring problems and ignore the long list of recurring problems you posted. I haven't got a satisfactory answer for that yet.

3) If the players played so much better (as shown by the DVOA), what held them back from more victories?

=================

That DVOA article came out just in time to give people something to latch on to, that's for sure. How many DVOAs do we need to get in the playoffs?


Bad kicking, bad referee calls, poor coaching decisions, bad luck.

I'm not sure why anything I've argued is even in dispute. The thread asked for reasons Kubiak should stay. I submitted a few. I've repeatedly argued that I understand the concerns people have with him.... I share some of them. I've also said that I would agree with his removal if a plan with a head coach and GM was in place and was better than what we have... or, likely better. I experienced the same disappointment and frustration that the rest of you did and for about 28 hours I was in the "Fire Kubiak Camp"... After I became emotionally stable again, I thought about it and reconsidered. Somehow that is upsetting to people or at least is fodder to discredit my thoughts on the subject. I'm not sure I get that.

Lucky
12-13-2009, 01:03 AM
I've also said that I would agree with his removal if a plan with a head coach and GM was in place and was better than what we have... or, likely better.
I don't get this concern. It's not as if there aren't qualified coaching candidates available every year. This year's field may be the best in years. And how difficult is it to replace a head coach who has never had a winning season?

I would take the following AFC head coaches over Kubiak in a heartbeat:
Bill Belichick
Jeff Fisher
Mike Tomlin
John Harbaugh
Tony Sparano
Josh McDaniels
Jim Caldwell
Rex Ryan
Jack Del Rio (Yes, even JDR)

Coaches that I consider a wash with Kubiak:
Todd Haley
Norv Turner
Marvin Lewis

Coaches I consider Kubiak superior to:
Tom Cable
Eric Mangini
Whomever is coaching the Bills

As far as a plan is concerned, I'm sure the Texans process would be like any other team searching for a new coach. Identify the candidates. Interview the candidates. Select the best coach for your team. It's not rocket science and it's done every year. Nothing to fear. The only thing we have to fear is another season of mediocrity under Kubiak.

GP
12-13-2009, 01:10 AM
Bad kicking, bad referee calls, poor coaching decisions, bad luck.

I'm not sure why anything I've argued is even in dispute. The thread asked for reasons Kubiak should stay. I submitted a few. I've repeatedly argued that I understand the concerns people have with him.... I share some of them. I've also said that I would agree with his removal if a plan with a head coach and GM was in place and was better than what we have... or, likely better. I experienced the same disappointment and frustration that the rest of you did and for about 28 hours I was in the "Fire Kubiak Camp"... After I became emotionally stable again, I thought about it and reconsidered. Somehow that is upsetting to people or at least is fodder to discredit my thoughts on the subject. I'm not sure I get that.

Why hell, it's a wonder the NFL even has a Super Bowl champion if those are the things that holds a team back.

I mean, who can overcome such giant obstacles?

Gary "Stones" Kubiak can. Just needs another year, preferably one with less obstacles.

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 01:12 AM
I don't get this concern. It's not as if there aren't qualified coaching candidates available every year. This year's field may be the best in years. And how difficult is it to replace a head coach who has never had a winning season?

I would take the following AFC head coaches over Kubiak in a heartbeat:
Bill Belichick
Jeff Fisher
Mike Tomlin
John Harbaugh
Tony Sparano
Josh McDaniels
Jim Caldwell
Rex RyanJack Del Rio (Yes, even JDR)

Coaches that I consider a wash with Kubiak:
Todd Haley
Norv Turner
Marvin Lewis

Coaches I consider Kubiak superior to:
Tom Cable
Eric Mangini
Whomever is coaching the Bills

As far as a plan is concerned, I'm sure the Texans process would be like any other team searching for a new coach. Identify the candidates. Interview the candidates. Select the best coach for your team. It's not rocket science and it's done every year. Nothing to fear. The only thing we have to fear is another season of mediocrity under Kubiak.


You do realize that most of the guys you listed don't have much of any track record? Come on! Jim Caldwell? You have to look at the circumstances. Rex Ryan... why? Josh McDaniels has coached in 12 games, and he's lost 4 of his last 6. John Harbaugh took over a perennial winner with established veterans that no how to win and had a good season last year. This year, he's 6-6 despite a good defense, a great RB, a good OL.

Wade Phillips has an excellent NFL record as a head coach. Would you really rather have him as your coach? I just think that circumstance and luck/probablility factor more heavily into wins and losses than many of you do. And, while I think Kubiak has failed in his role this year, I don't see his failure to be inevitable to repeat itself. As a matter of a fact, I expect a different result next season.

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 01:16 AM
Why hell, it's a wonder the NFL even has a Super Bowl champion if those are the things that holds a team back.

I mean, who can overcome such giant obstacles?

Gary "Stones" Kubiak can. Just needs another year, preferably one with less obstacles.

For about the 12th time: Kubiak failed this year. He made poor decisions and it cost the team. Back to my original point that none of you will acknowledge: "good coaches lead their teams to bad seasons sometimes.. even with more talented and experienced rosters". For example:

Mike Tomlin in '09
Bill Bellicheck in '09
Bill Parcels had a losing season in Dallas immediately after a 10- 6 season.

Lucky
12-13-2009, 01:28 AM
Back to my original point that none of you will acknowledge: "good coaches lead their teams to bad seasons sometimes..
What you (and others) are not acknowledging is that Gary Kubiak has yet to become a "good" coach. These other coaches you are referring to have had good coaching years. Some have had great years. You can't compare Kubiak to guys who have had success, like a Belichick or a Tomlin. You can compare him to coaches who never succeeded, like a Bruce Coslet or a David Shula or a Hugh Campbell. Maybe those guys were never given enough time to succeed. Or maybe they just couldn't cut it as NFL head coaches.

Lucky
12-13-2009, 01:36 AM
You do realize that most of the guys you listed don't have much of any track record?
I firmly believe that any NFL team would choose John Harbaugh, Tony Sparano, Josh McDaniels, Jim Caldwell, or Rex Ryan over Gary Kubiak as head coach. If these coaches were released from their contracts and became available, all would have head coaching jobs in 2010. If Gary Kubiak becomes available, his best option will be as an offensive coordinator.

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 01:38 AM
What you (and others) are not acknowledging is that Gary Kubiak has yet to become a "good" coach. These other coaches you are referring to have had good coaching years. Some have had great years. You can't compare Kubiak to guys who have had success, like a Belichick or a Tomlin. You can compare him to coaches who never succeeded, like a Bruce Coslet or a David Shula or a Hugh Campbell. Maybe those guys were never given enough time to succeed. Or maybe they just couldn't cut it as NFL head coaches.

Do you think Tomlin wins more than 6 games in Houston in '06 or 8 games in '07?

And, once again, I'm not comparing Kubiak to those coaches. I'm saying that coaches that almost everyone believes to be very good, have their teams underachieve some seasons. So, the fact that the Texans have underachieved through 12 games this year, doesn't mean Kubiak is a bad coach. Now, if you want to argue that he's a bad coach because he throws a HB pass that gets intercepted then I'm actually a little more sympathetic.. However, then I'd have to compare/contrast him to Jim Caldwell, who allowed the same thing to happen against us... with PEYTON MANNING at QB!

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 01:41 AM
I firmly believe that any NFL team would choose John Harbaugh, Tony Sparano, Josh McDaniels, Jim Caldwell, or Rex Ryan over Gary Kubiak as head coach. If these coaches were released from their contracts and became available, all would have head coaching jobs in 2010. If Gary Kubiak becomes available, his best option will be as an offensive coordinator.

Your assumption of popular opinion hardly makes it reality. By the way, popular opinion is overrated... Many of those same decision-makers that you think would hire McDaniels over Kubiak also passed on MJ Drew because he was too short. They also may have voted safety Roy Williams to one of his 5 consecutive probowl appearences. And, they probably all had Mike Vick on top of their draft board.

Lucky
12-13-2009, 01:48 AM
Many of those same decision-makers that you think would hire McDaniels over Kubiak also passed on MJ Drew because he was too short.
McDaniels will accomplish something in his first season that Kubiak has failed to in four. It's about results. It's about performance. No one has to judge Kubiak on potential, like a draft prospect. Kubiak has a 4 year track record. And that record clearly show that he has not gotten the job done.

eriadoc
12-13-2009, 01:49 AM
Do you think Tomlin wins more than 6 games in Houston in '06 or 8 games in '07?

Good question. I'm not sure I do, but I'm pretty sure I feel like he'd have won more games in '08 and '09. So that's all that really matters. I mean, even Dom Capers progressed to a point, then he failed. I believe Kubiak is past the point of reasonable progression. So if this were the 1970s and he was given a decade to build a team, maybe he'd be great. Unfortunately, in the salary cap era, coaches have to win a lot sooner than that.

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 01:51 AM
McDaniels will accomplish something in his first season that Kubiak has failed to in four. It's about results. It's about performance. No one has to judge Kubiak on potential, like a draft prospect. Kubiak has a 4 year track record. And that record clearly show that he has not gotten the job done.

If the Texans and Broncos finish the season with the same record, what will your attitude be towards the two coaches?

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 02:00 AM
Good question. I'm not sure I do, but I'm pretty sure I feel like he'd have won more games in '08 and '09. So that's all that really matters. I mean, even Dom Capers progressed to a point, then he failed. I believe Kubiak is past the point of reasonable progression. So if this were the 1970s and he was given a decade to build a team, maybe he'd be great. Unfortunately, in the salary cap era, coaches have to win a lot sooner than that.

He's lost 7 games with the Steelers! Including must win games versus KC, Cleveland, Oakland; why on earth do you think he'd have done better versus Indy x2, Tennessee, Jacksonville?... Oh, and by the way, we beat Cincy handely in Cincinnati while Pitt lost to them twice.

Pittsburgh's losses:
Oakland
Kansas City
Cleveland
Chicago
Cincinnati
Cincinnati
Baltimore

Are you telling me that he would improve on our 7 losses:
Indy
Indy
Jacksonville
Jacksonville
Tennessee
NYJets
Arizona

Goldensilence
12-13-2009, 02:11 AM
If the Texans and Broncos finish the season with the same record, what will your attitude be towards the two coaches?

Did you even look at the remaining schedule for the Broncos?

Colts
Raiders
Eagles
Chiefs

Assume they win the two games they should against the Raiders and Chiefs. They finish the season 10-6. We can't match that.

Assuming they lose one to go 9-7 this team would have to win out, 4 in a row. Food for thought McDaniels has had this team on game win streak. What's the best a Kubiak team has done? 3?

What's my attitude about the coaches?

Let's see one has won more then one game against teams over .500

One coach has made the dreaded move of moving to a 3-4 defense, and got better, oh and had the sense to hire a coach with a track record.

One coach 12 weeks into the season has already matched Kubiak's best season win total.

Oh yeah this is all also under a newly hired GM.

Runner
12-13-2009, 02:14 AM
Did you even look at the remaining schedule for the Broncos?

Colts
Raiders
Eagles
Chiefs

Assume they win the two games they should against the Raiders and Chiefs. They finish the season 10-6. We can't match that.

Assuming they lose one to go 9-7 this team would have to win out, 4 in a row. Food for thought McDaniels has had this team on game win streak. What's the best a Kubiak team has done? 3?

What's my attitude about the coaches?

Let's see one has won more then one game against teams over .500

One coach has made the dreaded move of moving to a 2-3 defense, and got better, oh and had the sense to hire a coach with a track record.

One coach 12 weeks into the season has already matched Kubiak's best season win total.

If Denver finishes the season with a better record than the Texans, then that comparison immediately becomes irrelevant. Reason i.e. spin to be supplied later.

:rolleyes:

houstonspartan
12-13-2009, 03:42 AM
For about the 12th time: Kubiak failed this year. He made poor decisions and it cost the team. Back to my original point that none of you will acknowledge: "good coaches lead their teams to bad seasons sometimes.. even with more talented and experienced rosters". For example:

Mike Tomlin in '09
Bill Bellicheck in '09
Bill Parcels had a losing season in Dallas immediately after a 10- 6 season.

Wow. I have no words.

Dale, you need to stop. Right now.

TexCanada
12-13-2009, 03:18 PM
Kubes was solid today, he didn't do anything really dumb. He also called the "throw it to number 80" play a whole lot of times today, and we usually win when we do that.

I told myself beforehand that I wouldn't let this game determine how I felt about Kubiak. I think Mcnair has already made up his mind on keeping Kubiak anyway, so we might as well take what positives we can out of this game looking forward.

HJam72
12-13-2009, 03:21 PM
Because he stops playing chess on a football field and outsmarting himself when the game only counts to save his job...

Hey! I just realized (:sarcasm:)....that's a really good reason to can his butt...

TheRealJoker
12-13-2009, 03:22 PM
The best thing about Kubiak is that his team will not quit on him. Unfortunately, I don't think that's enough. I hope I am wrong and the teams ahead of us in the playoff race collapse down the stretch but I would like to get a coach that can get us wins when we are in control of our own destiny.

His team looked great today, but it might end up being too little too late. Wish we could've seen this team the last 4 games :(

Leahmic223
12-13-2009, 03:29 PM
I'm sure it has been mentioned, but the only real solid excuse for Kubiak is that he has had too many injuries.

Pitts, Briesel, Owen, Wilson, Slaton

With Pitts, Owen, and Slaton being impact players, that is sure to hurt a team in the long run...but still the team was right there to win most of it's games and failed each time.

euro-Texan
12-13-2009, 03:38 PM
I'm sure it has been mentioned, but the only real solid excuse for Kubiak is that he has had too many injuries.

Pitts, Briesel, Owen, Wilson, Slaton

With Pitts, Owen, and Slaton being impact players, that is sure to hurt a team in the long run...but still the team was right there to win most of it's games and failed each time.

A coach should give his team an oportunity to win. The rest is on the players. Kubiak has consistantly put this team in position to win almost every game they have played. PLEASE don't tell me that he should have coached them better so they don't fumble on the goal-line or miss gimmie field goals. That is player responsibility.

TheRealJoker
12-13-2009, 03:51 PM
A coach should give his team an oportunity to win. The rest is on the players. Kubiak has consistantly put this team in position to win almost every game they have played. PLEASE don't tell me that he should have coached them better so they don't fumble on the goal-line or miss gimmie field goals. That is player responsibility.

The coach also has to play the players who give them the best opportunity to win. Not take our best player off the field in crunch time like the 1st Jags game and Cardinals game. It would also help if we stopped forcing a square peg into a round hole (I.E. everything having to do with Chris Brown this season. MAYBE our 4th best RB?)

Chris Brown doesn't give us the best chance to win, yet we gave him the ball in crucial situations that contributed to 3 of our losses. That's on the coach for not getting the ball to a better player (like maybe that Andre Johnson guy?)

Lets not forget that we didn't sign Pollard until week 3 when our safety play was some of the worst in NFL history...

TexansSeminole
12-13-2009, 03:59 PM
The coach also has to play the players who give them the best opportunity to win. Not take our best player off the field in crunch time like the 1st Jags game and Cardinals game. It would also help if we stopped forcing a square peg into a round hole (I.E. everything having to do with Chris Brown this season. MAYBE our 4th best RB?)

Chris Brown doesn't give us the best chance to win, yet we gave him the ball in crucial situations that contributed to 3 of our losses. That's on the coach for not getting the ball to a better player (like maybe that Andre Johnson guy?)

Lets not forget that we didn't sign Pollard until week 3 when our safety play was some of the worst in NFL history...


Or all the games where Kubiak and Kyle decided to pass on every down making the offense extremely predictable. That's putting your QB in a position to fail, which we consistently do at the end of games.

Even today we are passing on first down, running on second, passing on third down when we are up by 20-27 points in the fourth quarter. Just run the damn ball in this situation. Have these guys work the kinks out in a live game if you think this crew can get it done.

Odd when a coach doesn't have alot of trust in the running game, but then makes little change to the oline or running back situation in the offseason. Ex. 2006-2007 offseason. 2007-2008 offseason. I would include last offseason but the numbers were not that bad last year, even though it ALL came from one person. Probably should have thought, you know, that he may actually get hurt.

euro-Texan
12-13-2009, 04:04 PM
Or all the games where Kubiak and Kyle decided to pass on every down making the offense extremely predictable. That's putting your QB in a position to fail, which we consistently do at the end of games.

Even today we are passing on first down, running on second, passing on third down when we are up by 20-27 points in the fourth quarter. Just run the damn ball in this situation. Have these guys work the kinks out in a live game if you think this crew can get it done.

Odd when a coach doesn't have alot of trust in the running game, but then makes little change to the oline or running back situation in the offseason. Ex. 2006-2007 offseason. 2007-2008 offseason. I would include last offseason but the numbers were not that bad last year, even though it ALL came from one person. Probably should have thought, you know, that he may actually get hurt.


Holy Sh*t, are we really at the point where we critisize the 27 freaking point wins? Are you morons sniffing glue?

dalemurphy
12-13-2009, 04:04 PM
The coach also has to play the players who give them the best opportunity to win. Not take our best player off the field in crunch time like the 1st Jags game and Cardinals game. It would also help if we stopped forcing a square peg into a round hole (I.E. everything having to do with Chris Brown this season. MAYBE our 4th best RB?)

Chris Brown doesn't give us the best chance to win, yet we gave him the ball in crucial situations that contributed to 3 of our losses. That's on the coach for not getting the ball to a better player (like maybe that Andre Johnson guy?)

Lets not forget that we didn't sign Pollard until week 3 when our safety play was some of the worst in NFL history...

Joker,

I agree with you that this is the biggest issue with Kubiak. He's a little old school in wanting to rely on veterans. And, I think that is the main issue that has held them back. That being said, moving forward two good things can happen: he can learn from his mistakes, and the younger players can become veterans.

TheRealJoker
12-13-2009, 04:06 PM
Joker,

I agree with you that this is the biggest issue with Kubiak. He's a little old school in wanting to rely on veterans. And, I think that is the main issue that has held them back. That being said, moving forward two good things can happen: he can learn from his mistakes, and the younger players can become veterans.

Only problem with that line of thinking is that's exactly what we've been hoping would be the end result of Kubiak's HC mistakes since he got here...

Yet we still see the same problems. 1-5 in the division aint gonna cut it.

TexansSeminole
12-13-2009, 04:12 PM
Holy Sh*t, are we really at the point where we critisize the 27 freaking point wins? Are you morons sniffing glue?

You know, it's the same thing EVERY year. We pick up rather meaningless wins in meaningless December games. I don't care that we won this game by 27 points. It doesn't really matter. I'm watching to see if the problems that we have been suffering from all season are getting worked out. And they aren't.

I watch other football teams, that can actually run the ball when they need to. Teams that have balance in their offense. We don't have that. Sure we can beat a 5-7 Seattle team that is injury riddled, and really just bad in almost every facet of the game. But when it comes to beating our division opponents, or just games that we need to win PERIOD, we fail using the same formula almost every time.

I'm past the point where a 27 point win against a 5-7 Seattle team in a meaningless December game has me :clap: my hands.

TexCanada
12-13-2009, 04:18 PM
Holy Sh*t, are we really at the point where we critisize the 27 freaking point wins? Are you morons sniffing glue?

If we were in a playoff spot no one would be criticizing. We are still 1-4 in our last 5 games.

Wolf
12-13-2009, 04:21 PM
Wins have been difficult this year... granted we aren't going to playoffs, so I have accepted that and I will just enjoy the win for what it is.. It sure the hell beats the hell out of the alternative, a loss. I don't know how Seattle beat the Jags 41-0 many moons ago.. I guess injuries and any given sunday

houstonspartan
12-13-2009, 04:35 PM
Holy Sh*t, are we really at the point where we critisize the 27 freaking point wins? Are you morons sniffing glue?

What I'm sniffing, you f-----g moron, is the $10,000 I've dropped on this mediocre team in the five years I've been a season ticket holder.

This was a bullshit win and you know it.

Wolf
12-13-2009, 04:46 PM
What I'm sniffing, you f-----g moron, is the $10,000 I've dropped on this mediocre team in the five years I've been a season ticket holder.

This was a bullshit win and you know it.

so you would take another loss instead?

I am not saying this wasn't a hollow victory in the grand scheme of things but wow

houstonspartan
12-13-2009, 05:01 PM
so you would take another loss instead?

I am not saying this wasn't a hollow victory in the grand scheme of things but wow

No, of course I don't want another loss. But I'm not ready to annoint Kubiak Coach of the Decade, either.

I was at the game. Usually, when the Texans win at home, there's screaming and hollering by fans as they're exiting the stadium and walking towards their cars. Today, it was as silent if there had been a loss.

Fans aren't dumb. We know this was an empty victory.

Wolf
12-13-2009, 05:03 PM
I am not sure who is anointing him coach of the decade either, but I might have to do a search on here

I just get the feeling that if it the Texans aren't in the playoffs, (and I am not saying it is you) but feels like people want the #1 pick in the draft then because there seems to be no in between , which I would want like everyone else wants .. playoffs

treduke
12-13-2009, 05:12 PM
this should make for an interesting week here on the boards team kubes will come out and say look we won a game who cares if its meaningless we won
well i'm sorry a win against a lifeless seattle team is not enough to make me put my pink soap away but in typical kubes fashion he does his best coaching when there's nothing on the line!

Vinny
12-13-2009, 06:11 PM
What I'm sniffing, you f-----g moron, is the $10,000 I've dropped on this mediocre team in the five years I've been a season ticket holder.

This was a bullshit win and you know it.
Someone needs a time out. Sit in the naughty corner please. Two days of no soup for u!

Runner
12-13-2009, 06:16 PM
I enjoyed the big Seattle win.

===========

I will await the DVOAs before I decide if I think they played well. :sarcasm:

Norg
12-13-2009, 06:24 PM
What I'm sniffing, you f-----g moron, is the $10,000 I've dropped on this mediocre team in the five years I've been a season ticket holder.

This was a bullshit win and you know it.

i thought the seahwaks were going to be a good team this year

and there no slouches they has the same amount of wins has us

J_R
12-13-2009, 06:37 PM
Looks like the consensus is Kubiak is going to need a strong finish(though nothing we really didnt know). Take "strong finish" for what you want.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Source-Kubiak-could-be-back-with-strong-finish.html

According to the NFP's Michael Lombardi (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Sunday-at-the-Post-5526.html), sources close to the Texans told the National Football Post that Houston owner Bob McNair will not make any changes if the club can finish strong over the next four weeks.

The Texans have have struggled to close out games throughout the 2009 season, and have fallen out of the AFC playoff race, prompting Kubiak's job security to come into question. But, Kubiak can put to bed any rumors about his job if the Texans can show McNair that they are going in the right direction heading into the off-season.

5. From my sources in Houston, I’m told there’s a prevailing feeling that owner Bob McNair will not make any changes if the Texans can finish strong in their remaining four games.

6. But there’s no doubt that Texans offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan will join his father Mike, probably in Washington when he returns to coaching next year. Kyle is a very bright coach who will be his father’s offensive coordinator.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Sunday-at-the-Post-5526.html


and


It's that time of the year again. A definite chill in the air is warmed nicely by the spirit of fellowship and good cheer with the holiday season upon us and young folks everywhere with visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads. It all sounds so wonderful, unless you're an NFL head coach who finds himself perched perilously atop the ever-expanding bubble that signifies life in the NFL for the coaches who haven't won often enough, fast enough or big enough for today's "what have you done for me lately" team owners and fans.

The next group falls into the category of "would be gone today if the decision had to be made, but may be able to salvage their jobs in the coming weeks." Gary Kubiak of the Texans is on top of this list, followed by Carolina's John Fox and Raheem Morris of the Bucs. Everything I'm hearing is that as much as Texans owner Bob McNair likes Kubiak, anything short of winning his last four games will cost him his job. Following back-to-back 8-8 seasons and a 5-3 start this year, Kubiak has to prove he can take a meaningful step forward. Word on the grapevine is that, short of dropping three or all of their last four, Fox will survive to fight another season with the Panthers. Owner Jerry Richardson trusts Fox a great deal and feels his body of work merits that trust, and that Fox is as likely to turn Carolina's fortunes as any new coach would be. Morris has clearly demonstrated he's in over his head, but I'm hearing the Glazer family is stubbornly determined to try to prove its faith in the young man was justified.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/12/12/some-coaches-in-for-unhappy-holidays-2

Vinny
12-13-2009, 06:39 PM
the best team in the league when nothing is on the line.

DerekLee1
12-13-2009, 06:42 PM
What I saw today was a team playing its ARSE off for its coach. Everyone was fired up, everyone was aggressive, and everybody wanted blood. I have NEVER seen this defense that aggressive, or the offense that attacking. Even if it is "just the Seahawks", it's a HUGE victory. And to me it's a statement that Kubiak has NOT lost this team, and that they want him here. That makes me third-guess myself. I'm now holding off all "fire Kubiak" or "keep Kubiak" feelings until the end of the season. If this team plays for its coaches every game like they did today, then they should all stay.

J_R
12-13-2009, 06:44 PM
the best team in the league when nothing is on the line.

Must spread rep before giving it to Vinny again.

+1 - so true.

J_R
12-13-2009, 06:46 PM
What I saw today was a team playing its ARSE off for its coach. Everyone was fired up, everyone was aggressive, and everybody wanted blood. I have NEVER seen this defense that aggressive, or the offense that attacking. Even if it is "just the Seahawks", it's a HUGE victory. And to me it's a statement that Kubiak has NOT lost this team, and that they want him here. That makes me third-guess myself. I'm now holding off all "fire Kubiak" or "keep Kubiak" feelings until the end of the season. If this team plays for its coaches every game like they did today, then they should all stay.

Yeah, they're all coming out saying they dont want any other coach. I want Kubiak gone but expect him to be back.

DerekLee1
12-13-2009, 06:48 PM
You know, it's the same thing EVERY year. We pick up rather meaningless wins in meaningless December games. I don't care that we won this game by 27 points. It doesn't really matter. I'm watching to see if the problems that we have been suffering from all season are getting worked out. And they aren't.

I watch other football teams, that can actually run the ball when they need to. Teams that have balance in their offense. We don't have that. Sure we can beat a 5-7 Seattle team that is injury riddled, and really just bad in almost every facet of the game. But when it comes to beating our division opponents, or just games that we need to win PERIOD, we fail using the same formula almost every time.

I'm past the point where a 27 point win against a 5-7 Seattle team in a meaningless December game has me :clap: my hands.

I'm so tired of hearing how wins in December for this team have been "meaningless". Ask last year's Bears if our win was "meaningless". Every game matters. Saying games in December are "meaningless" is stupid. We're still mathematically alive in the playoff hunt. Are you going to quit and consider this an extended 2010 preseason? Or are you going to fight and hope for a lucky break somewhere?

LonerATO
12-13-2009, 06:50 PM
Looks like the consensus is Kubiak is going to need a strong finish(though nothing we really didnt know). Take "strong finish" for what you want.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Source-Kubiak-could-be-back-with-strong-finish.html




http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Sunday-at-the-Post-5526.html


and




http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/12/12/some-coaches-in-for-unhappy-holidays-2

The part about Kyle leaving to work with his dad makes me think that Kubes could have called all the plays today. I know Kubiak approves all calls, but he might have called something else then what Kyle had called. I didnt get to see the game either and someone said that Matt was able to audible at the line.

Silver Oak
12-13-2009, 07:04 PM
the best team in the league when nothing is on the line.

not labeling you as such, but I believe that's a pessimistic POV. if you truly think Kubiak and his staff can sprinkle magic dust on the team at the end of the season to churn up these so called easy wins, well...that's not the thinking of someone who is non biased.

Vinny
12-13-2009, 07:05 PM
not labeling you as such, but I believe that's a pessimistic POV. if you truly think Kubiak and his staff can sprinkle magic dust on the team at the end of the season to churn up these so called easy wins, well...that's not the thinking of someone who is non biased.
Pessimistic or realistic? There is no denying that each of the last 3 years the team rolled into week 14 with 5 total wins then "finished strong" when nothing was on the line each season.

TheRealJoker
12-13-2009, 07:13 PM
I'd prefer for the players to start playing for their coach when we are in control of our own playoff fate.

Silver Oak
12-13-2009, 07:15 PM
Pessimistic or realistic? There is no denying that each of the last 3 years the team rolled into week 14 with 5 total wins then "finished strong" when nothing was on the line each season.

I won't deny that, but I think you are suggesting that somehow the HC can ready his team to play more than other weeks is just not very plausible.

These guys are pros and prepare the same each week. I would like wins at the beginning of the season too, but it's just a coincidence that we finish with wins late...IMO.

I know one thing, there are other teams in the league with similar records who don't seem to want to finish the season strong for their coaches/themselves!

eriadoc
12-13-2009, 07:16 PM
6. But there’s no doubt that Texans offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan will join his father Mike, probably in Washington when he returns to coaching next year. Kyle is a very bright coach who will be his father’s offensive coordinator.

Well, good news may come after all. Sweet!

Runner
12-13-2009, 07:16 PM
the best team in the league when nothing is on the line.

not labeling you as such, but I believe that's a pessimistic POV. if you truly think Kubiak and his staff can sprinkle magic dust on the team at the end of the season to churn up these so called easy wins, well...that's not the thinking of someone who is non biased.

If you ask me, pessimistic is believing that year after year mediocity is the best possible result and that nothing could have been done to make the team better.

TexansSeminole
12-13-2009, 07:17 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how wins in December for this team have been "meaningless". Ask last year's Bears if our win was "meaningless". Every game matters. Saying games in December are "meaningless" is stupid. We're still mathematically alive in the playoff hunt. Are you going to quit and consider this an extended 2010 preseason? Or are you going to fight and hope for a lucky break somewhere?

Who cares if we eliminated the Bears from the playoffs last year? It means nothing to the Houston Texans and getting to the playoffs. Meaningless.

We are mathematically alive, but our chances are extremely slim. We have little chance even if we win out.

Glad we beat the 4th worst team last year who is 5-7 this year. Unhappy that we can't seem to get a running game going or commit to trying to get it going.

GuerillaBlack
12-13-2009, 07:21 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how wins in December for this team have been "meaningless". Ask last year's Bears if our win was "meaningless". Every game matters. Saying games in December are "meaningless" is stupid. We're still mathematically alive in the playoff hunt. Are you going to quit and consider this an extended 2010 preseason? Or are you going to fight and hope for a lucky break somewhere?

Uh....no. The game definitely had meaning for the Bears, but not us. What did we gain out of winning? A better record is the only thing.

phantom17
12-13-2009, 07:23 PM
I like the wins, but this sh%t always happens when this team has no more playoff chances! This team should & could have played WELL the whole year, now it's too late! This team needs change in the coaching levels! I'm just tired of watching stupid/goofy football! The sad part is that Boss Hog McNair will keep Kubes & will see more of the same crapola next year, SIGH! I swear the fans in Houston are just a glutton for punishment & gets easily suckered by the GREEDY/ INCOMPETENT pro sport owners there!:roast: WAKE UP DIE HARD TEXANS FANS!

DerekLee1
12-13-2009, 07:23 PM
Well, good news may come after all. Sweet!

The OC that made us an offensive powerhouse? And coached Matt Schaub into an elite-tier QB? And OD into a Pro Bowl TE? And a receiver corps that is better than any other in the league? And you would consider him leaving "good news"?

:clown:

Mr. White
12-13-2009, 07:25 PM
The OC that made us an offensive powerhouse? And coached Matt Schaub into an elite-tier QB? And OD into a Pro Bowl TE? And a receiver corps that is better than any other in the league? And you would consider him leaving "good news"?

:clown:

Can anyone prove that Shanahan actually calls the plays here?

Vinny
12-13-2009, 07:26 PM
I won't deny that, but I think you are suggesting that somehow the HC can ready his team to play more than other weeks is just not very plausible.

These guys are pros and prepare the same each week. I would like wins at the beginning of the season too, but it's just a coincidence that we finish with wins late...IMO.

I know one thing, there are other teams in the league with similar records who don't seem to want to finish the season strong for their coaches/themselves!This team has never won a game of any significance in 45 outings, but you are trying to sell me on the big Seachicken victory? I saw a shockingly bad Seahawk team out there today. Sure, I'm glad we have risen to one game under .500 and all, but Gary Kubiak is now in a no-win situation as far as how fans like myself perceive him. I don't think he will be able to change how I look at him until he can start beating good teams as well as the dregs of the league. He won't be able to prove that till next season when something is once again on the line. And lastly, I ain't buying into all that pie in the sky playoff talk for this year so save that for someone else if anyone wants to go there.

eriadoc
12-13-2009, 07:29 PM
The OC that made us an offensive powerhouse? And coached Matt Schaub into an elite-tier QB? And OD into a Pro Bowl TE? And a receiver corps that is better than any other in the league? And you would consider him leaving "good news"?

:clown:

The OC that made us an offensive powerhouse (really good OC at that), coached MS into the QB that he is (not quite elite yet, thank you), and generally is responsible for the players' success on the offensive side is posing as a head coach, and should never have turned any of the playcalling duties over to Kyle Shanahan. Nothing against Shanahan, but this team should be fighting for its playoff lives, and sometimes on-the-job training does not meet that need.

DerekLee1
12-13-2009, 07:31 PM
Can anyone prove that Shanahan actually calls the plays here?

No one says who specifically calls the plays. Methinks that Shanahan calls them early, then Kubiak takes over in the second half. It would make sense why the halves are often completely different teams.

thunderkyss
12-13-2009, 07:32 PM
i thought the seahwaks were going to be a good team this year

and there no slouches they has the same amount of wins has us

I saw a few of their games earlier this year, I saw some good things from their defense, & was worried they would put it all together, & be playing well this year.

Obviously that is not the case.

One thing I was hoping everyone would see though, is that they did have the same 5-7 record as we did to start the day. Some people want to use that W-L to define the team, but if you watched the game, There was a big difference between the two teams on the field.

There was a good 5-7 team, and a bad 5-7 team. In years past, we were a bad team whatever our record was. Last year, we finally had enough talent that we could contend with any team in the league, IMHO on a talent level. This year, they are starting to put things together, & we're turning into a real team on both sides of the ball.

DerekLee1
12-13-2009, 07:36 PM
The OC that made us an offensive powerhouse (really good OC at that), coached MS into the QB that he is (not quite elite yet, thank you), and generally is responsible for the players' success on the offensive side is posing as a head coach, and should never have turned any of the playcalling duties over to Kyle Shanahan. Nothing against Shanahan, but this team should be fighting for its playoff lives, and sometimes on-the-job training does not meet that need.

I don't know about others on this board, but I watch a lot of training camp practices. And Kyle is the one out coaching the offense the most, while Kubiak is pacing the sidelines overseeing everything. The roles - at least in practice - seem to be distributed as they should. So yes, I think Shanahan is HUGE in actually COACHING this offense, not just a "trainee" or a "figurehead". It's the playcalling that Kubiak is having a hard time giving up. Losing him would be a blow. I don't know that it would be unrecoverable, but it would be big nonetheless.

thunderkyss
12-13-2009, 07:44 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how wins in December for this team have been "meaningless". Ask last year's Bears if our win was "meaningless". Every game matters. Saying games in December are "meaningless" is stupid. We're still mathematically alive in the playoff hunt. Are you going to quit and consider this an extended 2010 preseason? Or are you going to fight and hope for a lucky break somewhere?

+1 for truth.

Vinny
12-13-2009, 07:46 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how wins in December for this team have been "meaningless". Ask last year's Bears if our win was "meaningless". Every game matters. Saying games in December are "meaningless" is stupid. We're still mathematically alive in the playoff hunt. Are you going to quit and consider this an extended 2010 preseason? Or are you going to fight and hope for a lucky break somewhere?
If it does nothing for us, it means nothing to us. Who cares about the Bears?

IlliniJen
12-13-2009, 07:47 PM
If you ask me, pessimistic is believing that year after year mediocity is the best possible result and that nothing could have been done to make the team better.

I wouldn't call that "pessimistic." More like "myopic homerism."

rollinstone18
12-13-2009, 07:59 PM
reading the post-game quotes at ht.com (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=5913) basically reaffirms my opinion on kubiak. i watched every game this season and i can't pin any loss on the coaching. and that's basically why i think kubiak should get one more year. that and i think our team has improved every year since kubes has been the coach. we've had some shitty luck this year and just too many players effing up at the wrong time. shit happens, that's football.

Ghostform
12-13-2009, 08:07 PM
we beat a crappy team after we lost all the must wins. big deal. i needa shower now, who can spare me some pink soap?

GP
12-13-2009, 08:20 PM
I saw a few of their games earlier this year, I saw some good things from their defense, & was worried they would put it all together, & be playing well this year.

Obviously that is not the case.

One thing I was hoping everyone would see though, is that they did have the same 5-7 record as we did to start the day. Some people want to use that W-L to define the team, but if you watched the game, There was a big difference between the two teams on the field.

There was a good 5-7 team, and a bad 5-7 team. In years past, we were a bad team whatever our record was. Last year, we finally had enough talent that we could contend with any team in the league, IMHO on a talent level. This year, they are starting to put things together, & we're turning into a real team on both sides of the ball.

Well, TK, our 5-7 team couldn't beat the Jags on two tries.

And the 5-7 'Hawks beat the snot out of the Jags.

That kinda' blows the "good" 5-7 teams vs. the "bad" 5-7 teams theory out of the water as far as I am concerned.

Teams either muscle their way to the top of the food chain, where they battle it out with other top carnivores. Or they scurry and hide under a rock, waiting for something smaller than them to come limping by.

This Texans team ate another fellow bottom-feeder (the Seahawks).

I guess since we beat the Seahawks, we're better than the Jags (since the Seahawks beat the Jags)?

Bottom line: We're just average. Like everyone else who won't make the playoffs.

thunderkyss
12-13-2009, 08:24 PM
If it does nothing for us, it means nothing to us. Who cares about the Bears?

so to you, 9-7 & 5-11 is the same thing if you only had 5 wins before December?

Are you going to look at this team as if it were a 5-11 team next year?

In a strange kinda way that makes sense.

mussop
12-13-2009, 08:36 PM
A coach should give his team an oportunity to win. The rest is on the players. Kubiak has consistantly put this team in position to win almost every game they have played. PLEASE don't tell me that he should have coached them better so they don't fumble on the goal-line or miss gimmie field goals. That is player responsibility.

Ok how about he should of done a better job of choosing his personell. Everyone with a hint of intellignence knows Brown isnt a short yardage back. And which gimme feild goals are you refering too? Not the 49 yarder against the Colts where Kubiak decided to line it up better instead of going for another yard or two to make it shorter for a kicker that had been strugleing I hope?

mussop
12-13-2009, 08:38 PM
so to you, 9-7 & 5-11 is the same thing if you only had 5 wins before December?

Are you going to look at this team as if it were a 5-11 team next year?

In a strange kinda way that makes sense.

When we actually win 9 games you can use that. :smiliedance:

GP
12-13-2009, 08:46 PM
so to you, 9-7 & 5-11 is the same thing if you only had 5 wins before December?

Are you going to look at this team as if it were a 5-11 team next year?

In a strange kinda way that makes sense.

It's like this:

When a man forgets his wedding anniversary, and he gets scolded by his wife for it, he runs out the next day and gets her a beautiful piece of jewelry. He hands it to her, and she says "I like it. Thank you." BUt every time she looks at it, all she thinks is "How could he not remember our wedding date?"

If we're going to get subjective here, then so be it.

I could care less about rallying the team and winning the final games.

Three games are left: Rams, Dolphins, Patriots.

I predict 1-2 at worst, or 2-1 at best.

2-1, at best, means 8-8. To get to 9-7, we have to win all three games.

Seems it would have been easier on the Texans, and Gary Kubiak, if they could have gotten their act together earlier in the year and at the midway point of the year against our divisional opponents.

I don't buy this B.S. that Gary has put them in position to win and the players need to just come through to the other side. I see better, more effective play on our defense than on Gary's elite offense that he's been masterminding and fine-tuning for four years.

Gurry's getting his ass out-coached by his d-coord. Period.

EDIT: Gurry's getting his ass out-coached by his FIRST-YEAR, ROOKIE d-coord. Period.

mussop
12-13-2009, 08:47 PM
reading the post-game quotes at ht.com (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=5913) basically reaffirms my opinion on kubiak. i watched every game this season and i can't pin any loss on the coaching. and that's basically why i think kubiak should get one more year. that and i think our team has improved every year since kubes has been the coach. we've had some shitty luck this year and just too many players effing up at the wrong time. shit happens, that's football.

This isnt a result of poor coaching in your opinion? Its ALL on the players? :choke:

Lucky
12-13-2009, 08:48 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how wins in December for this team have been "meaningless".
Then you might want to take a nap. Because the Houston Texans have won nothing but meaningless games in December since their inception.
I saw a shockingly bad Seahawk team out there today.
They were worse than the Raiders. At least the Raiders played with a little heart. The Seahags sent this one in UPS Red, as the game was over before the opening quarter had expired.

FirstTexansFan
12-13-2009, 08:50 PM
They were worse than the Raiders. At least the Raiders played with a little heart. The Seahags sent this one in UPS Red, as the game was over before the opening quarter had expired.

Couldn't agree more, in fact, I feel what we saw today was just a continuation of the same old BS. The offense failed to play 4 quarters of football. If our competition had continued to play, we'd have probably seen the typical fold by our team at the end of the game.

GP
12-13-2009, 08:52 PM
If you think the Seahawks are bad, you guys should have watched the Rams game today.

Wow.

Wolf
12-13-2009, 08:58 PM
Texans are taking a page from the Astros, unfortunately ...start slow and then work their tail off toward the end .. but Texans haven't realized that the NFL is a sprint and not a marathon

maybe the Comical needs to put an article in the paper on the 1st week of the season and put the Texans logo on it
http://forloveoftheastros.mlblogs.com/my_weblog/images/tombstonepage.jpg

FirstTexansFan
12-13-2009, 08:58 PM
If you think the Seahawks are bad, you guys should have watched the Rams game today.

Wow.

Thanks to Sunday Ticket, I did, and you are correct. :)

J_R
12-13-2009, 09:15 PM
If you think the Seahawks are bad, you guys should have watched the Rams game today.

Wow.

Hah so you think we put up 40+ on St. Louis? Wait, nevermind. That is against Gary Kubiak's mentality.

utahmark
12-13-2009, 11:36 PM
Ok how about he should of done a better job of choosing his personell. Everyone with a hint of intellignence knows Brown isnt a short yardage back. And which gimme feild goals are you refering too? Not the 49 yarder against the Colts where Kubiak decided to line it up better instead of going for another yard or two to make it shorter for a kicker that had been strugleing I hope?

i'm so tired of hearing that arguement. every kick he missed up to that point he was lined up on one or the other hash mark's and kicked the ball straight and just barely missed. none of those kicks had anything to do with distance. the logical thing to do was to put the ball in the middle of the field so kris wouldnt have to worry about angling the kick. he is still having the same problem. he almost missed a short one today because he had to angle it. its about time for kris to go. that block today was on him as well.

theanswer000
12-14-2009, 12:00 AM
Gary Kubiak will be back next year unless we just look pathetic our last 2 games. But even then I do not see Bill Cowher coming in. I still kind of feel like we made some progress this year. But next years schedule is not going to get any easier.

Goldensilence
12-14-2009, 01:51 AM
I'm so tired of hearing how wins in December for this team have been "meaningless". Ask last year's Bears if our win was "meaningless". Every game matters. Saying games in December are "meaningless" is stupid. We're still mathematically alive in the playoff hunt. Are you going to quit and consider this an extended 2010 preseason? Or are you going to fight and hope for a lucky break somewhere?

Meaningful games = ones that the Texans can win to qualify for the playoffs.

For some people when faced with not making the playoffs "meaningful" might mean preventing another team from making it. I guess that's you.

Truth is no mathematically we're still in the playoffs sure, but no matter what happened with the Miami/Jags game today the outcome was going to hurt us. Our staff should look at the Baltimore game, that's what a team does to step on the throats of a bad team.

Corrosion
12-14-2009, 04:14 AM
Somebody make a play ....

Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6768700.html)


“We had a long talk, me and him personally, and it meant a lot, the things he said to me and the way he came at me,” Williams said after making six tackles, including three for losses. “Everybody's under the microscope, but at the end of the day, it's the players that play.

“I realized I need to give a better effort, not just for myself but for him. I don't want another coach here. I love Kubiak to death.”

In their conversation, Williams told Kubiak he knew he had been underperforming.

He refused to blame the shoulder injury that's bothered him since early in the season or the groin injury that slowed him in practice last week.

Tell it like it is
“I'm still way behind in the team's eyes and in my eyes,” Williams said. “A lot of times, the first person to be blamed is the coach, but it definitely shouldn't be that way, because eventually, it's going to come down to us.

“If we were to have somebody different, what are we going to say then if the same thing happens?”


They made a lot today ....

No pink soap for me.

Tedc
12-14-2009, 06:11 AM
Regardless of the nice win against a bad team, the game mismanagement at the end of the half points to more serious issues with this staff.:clown:

silvrhand
12-14-2009, 07:50 AM
Regardless of the nice win against a bad team, the game mismanagement at the end of the half points to more serious issues with this staff.:clown:

Who the hell let's the foot off the gas in the second half like that seriously.. put them away keep your foot on the gas and keep going. Another playing not to lose half by Gary Kubiak, signed by Gary Kubiak..

:foottap:

Mr. White
12-14-2009, 08:01 AM
I won't deny that, but I think you are suggesting that somehow the HC can ready his team to play more than other weeks is just not very plausible.

These guys are pros and prepare the same each week. I would like wins at the beginning of the season too, but it's just a coincidence that we finish with wins late...IMO.


Sounds pretty plausible to me. Looks like that's exactly how it happened. (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6768693.html)

Gary Kubiak stood in front of his players Saturday night and sliced open his soul. He dug down deep, into places he probably doesn't go that often.

He spoke of his love of football, of his players and of this Texans franchise. He told his players he hoped they appreciated the gift they'd been given and that they'd never take playing in the NFL for granted.

“I talked probably longer than I've ever talked,” Kubiak said.

He didn't pretend these are normal times. These last four games probably will decide his future with the Texans, and he let his players know he wasn't going down without fighting for both himself and them.

“It definitely hit me right between the eyes,” quarterback Matt Schaub said.

Kubiak isn't comfortable making things about him, but this month is about him. This isn't his usual mode of operation. After bad games, he accepts the blame. After good games, he deflects the credit.

Now things are different. Maybe he subconsciously wanted to make his fight for survival their fight. If so, it worked. The Texans jumped Seattle hard during a 17-point first quarter and rolled to a 34-7 victory Sunday afternoon.
Stars step up

They played with purpose and focus, dominated both sides of the ball, and, when they got control of the game, never let go. Kubiak's big players — Schaub, Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, etc. — played big.

Just proves that Kubiak can motivate a team when his back is against the wall, but not until then.

eriadoc
12-14-2009, 08:19 AM
Just proves that Kubiak can motivate a team when his back is against the wall, but not until then.

I think he motivates them just fine for any given game. They came out fired up against the Colts. Then reality set in. I think the fact that we played the Seahawks has more to do with it than anything. He could have given that speech each time before 10 games vs. the Colts and we don't come out on the winning side more often than not. Would that make it a less motivating speech?

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 08:31 AM
My theory on winning late games when you have no chance is as simple as playing loose. The coaches feel free to throw everythign out the window and go for broke. The players play less tight, knowing a loss won't kill them. The problem is how the Texans have been the middle games....the set up games for the stretch. That is when things are tough and tight. Kubes and the players have choked at those times. I refuse to sit here and act like a drubbing of one of the worst teams I've watched in years....Oakland earlier this year might have been worse....was this come to Jesus moment.

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 08:51 AM
My comparision of Kubiak to Jeff Van Gundy still stands. Like Jeff, Kubiak
will play veterans in key roles IN SPITE of having a younger guy in there
who's flat out better. Remember Jeff Van Gundy sticking with Rafer Alston
when Aaron Brooks was a tougher matchup for defenses? Arian Foster
runs like Chris Brown with BURST, yet Kubiak allows him to languish on the
practice squad all year for no real reason.

Why did he JUST NOW start forcing the ball to Dre? It was the main reason
our offense was so wide open last year. When we're playing for nothing,
Kubiak stops micromanaging and allows the players to play. It's a huge flaw
in his coaching, and it's stunted the growth of this team. "Go with the
hot hand" is what Adelman does. It's what smart coaches do. Kubiak
just goes with vets because they're vets. He SHOULD go with the guy
having the better game, and put everyone on notice, that if they're having
a bad game, the guy playing better will be out there.

GP
12-14-2009, 08:56 AM
He didn't pretend these are normal times. These last four games probably will decide his future with the Texans, and he let his players know he wasn't going down without fighting for both himself and them.

“It definitely hit me right between the eyes,” quarterback Matt Schaub said.

Kubiak isn't comfortable making things about him, but this month is about him. This isn't his usual mode of operation. After bad games, he accepts the blame. After good games, he deflects the credit.

Now things are different. Maybe he subconsciously wanted to make his fight for survival their fight. If so, it worked. The Texans jumped Seattle hard during a 17-point first quarter and rolled to a 34-7 victory Sunday afternoon.

This is a huge problem.

When teams begin adopting their head coach's desparation, trying to win a few so their coach doesn't get fired, then they are playing for the wrong reasons.

They are playing to help THE COACH instead of helping themselves and their teammates. They are trying to help their COACH to not get fired instead of helping themselves from getting cut (or lessening their future contract $$$).

This, IMO, is the sign of a weak coach. He cannot get the team into position, via a good week-to-week, opponent-to-opponent strategy that takes advantage of the opponent's weaknesses. Nor can he develop and employ a consistently reliable gameday strategy of adjusting as the game moves along.

Instead, he pleads with them to ACT NOW! Before This Offer Expires! like some bad infomercial at 2 a.m. on the local stations.

Coaches who have "it" just find a way to get over the hump and do most everything with the intangibles that make a coach "great" instead of average. It's the same with players, too.

Once a coach starts in with the "Help me to help YOU" speeches, it's over.

Silver Oak
12-14-2009, 08:56 AM
you soapers are already in midweek form on a Monday morning. :bravo:

Vinny
12-14-2009, 08:58 AM
you soapers are already in midweek form on a Monday morning. :bravo:

at least most of them are talking about the game, the players and the coaches. You are getting to the point where most of your posts center around the posters.

GP
12-14-2009, 08:59 AM
you soapers are already in midweek form on a Monday morning. :bravo:

Yeah, we're not like Gary Kubiak. We find what works, and stick with it.

GP
12-14-2009, 09:00 AM
at least most of them are talking about the game, the players and the coaches. You are getting to the point where most of your posts center around the posters.

Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you.

The posters are not on trial here. The millionaire "professionals" are.

Mr. White
12-14-2009, 09:01 AM
you soapers are already in midweek form on a Monday morning. :bravo:

Wow. Insightful.

My mind is changed now.

Ghostform
12-14-2009, 09:03 AM
we beat a really good seahawks team and got our first win in a month...i change my mind let kubes stay now omg!

/sarcasm

rollinstone18
12-14-2009, 09:47 AM
you soapers are already in midweek form on a Monday morning. :bravo:

no kidding, some folks need to get a life.

Runner
12-14-2009, 09:56 AM
you soapers are already in midweek form on a Monday morning. :bravo:

no kidding, some folks need to get a life.

Just like every division loss in the recent four game skid strengthened the resolve of the pro-Kubiak pessimists club that he is the best coach for the Texans.

HOU-TEX
12-14-2009, 10:08 AM
Sounds pretty plausible to me. Looks like that's exactly how it happened. (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6768693.html)



Just proves that Kubiak can motivate a team when the playoffs are all but out of reach, but not until then.

Fixed your post to reflect my thoughts. :)

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 10:43 AM
I noticed on the second TD drive, Schaub called TWO audibles. It was
the first game he's done so all year. Kubiak's desperation should have
been felt from week one.

dalemurphy
12-14-2009, 10:50 AM
I noticed on the second TD drive, Schaub called TWO audibles. It was
the first game he's done so all year. Kubiak's desperation should have
been felt from week one.

I noticed that too. Schaub definitely seemed in charge of the game in a way that I've never seen him.. With or without Kubiak next season, that is something I hope to see more of.

dalemurphy
12-14-2009, 10:55 AM
My comparision of Kubiak to Jeff Van Gundy still stands. Like Jeff, Kubiak
will play veterans in key roles IN SPITE of having a younger guy in there
who's flat out better. Remember Jeff Van Gundy sticking with Rafer Alston
when Aaron Brooks was a tougher matchup for defenses? Arian Foster
runs like Chris Brown with BURST, yet Kubiak allows him to languish on the
practice squad all year for no real reason.

Why did he JUST NOW start forcing the ball to Dre? It was the main reason
our offense was so wide open last year. When we're playing for nothing,
Kubiak stops micromanaging and allows the players to play. It's a huge flaw
in his coaching, and it's stunted the growth of this team. "Go with the
hot hand" is what Adelman does. It's what smart coaches do. Kubiak
just goes with vets because they're vets. He SHOULD go with the guy
having the better game, and put everyone on notice, that if they're having
a bad game, the guy playing better will be out there.


This is definitely an issue. I try not to make too much of it sense the Texans do have the youngest starting team in the NFL. So, it's hard to compare him to other NFL coaches since none of them start a more inexperienced team.

Second Honeymoon
12-14-2009, 10:57 AM
Kubiak should stay because his teams play so good in games that matter and because he performs so well in the division. I mean the guy almost has a .200 divisional record. Why should he stay? I cant even begin to count the reasons. He is a genius at inspiring his troops and his teams are so disciplined and don't get stupid penalties or do stupid things. Why not just resign the guy to a 10 year contract. He is winning 2 out of 10 divisional games...that is freaking awesome. Cowher can't even hold Kubiak's jock. Kubiak is a winner. yeah, he is a losing head coach but he coaches for us, so he is a winner and he just has to be the answer. screw looking at things like stats and trends and reality. He is a Texans head coach and is a local 'hero' so he has to be good. Logic and facts be damned.

how dare anyone question Kubiak. who knows maybe if we are patient he just may win 2 divisional games next year. that would be awesome.

i am so geeked up for next year. we are going to be so awesome. hooray for Big Game Gary.

Double Barrel
12-14-2009, 11:17 AM
I enjoyed the big Seattle win.

===========

I will await the DVOAs before I decide if I think they played well. :sarcasm:

lol! DVOAs are about as useful as QB ratings as they relate to getting into the playoffs. What next, tarot cards?

http://www.sunhairsimscreations.com/forum/images/smilies/fortune-teller-anim-fortune-teller-zodiac-sign-smiley-emoticon-000545-medium.gif

Nice win, but like my 7 year old said yesterday, why don't they play like that all year? I told him because we don't have the Seahawks on our schedule for 16 games! :D

TexCanada
12-14-2009, 11:26 AM
It think its time to accept that Kubiak will be getting another year whether you like or not. So, we might as well take what positives we can from that game. I saw Kubiak allow some audibles to be called, a whole bunch of plays we called for #80, and our coach didn't attempt to "out-couch" the other sideline.

I am sure that Kubiak has seen his coaching-life flash before his eyes the last couple weeks, and I'm hoping that it has humbled him. I liked that we saw Quin, McCain and Foster in the games at important times.

Clearly Kubes has the support from the players and the management, so I think I will take it easy on the guy for now.

HOU-TEX
12-14-2009, 11:33 AM
It think its time to accept that Kubiak will be getting another year whether you like or not. So, we might as well take what positives we can from that game. I saw Kubiak allow some audibles to be called, a whole bunch of plays we called for #80, and our coach didn't attempt to "out-couch" the other sideline.

I am sure that Kubiak has seen his coaching-life flash before his eyes the last couple weeks, and I'm hoping that it has humbled him. I liked that we saw Quin, McCain and Foster in the games at important times.

Clearly Kubes has the support from the players and the management, so I think I will take it easy on the guy for now.

I think most of us are aware of that, but it doesn't mean we can't voice our displeasures.

Up until the titans game I've been in Kubiaks corner 100%. That game forced me to reflect on Kubiak's tenure here and I came away unimpressed.

I will have no problem climbing back on his bandwagon if he can win me back. :)

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 11:43 AM
It think its time to accept that Kubiak will be getting another year whether you like or not. So, we might as well take what positives we can from that game. I saw Kubiak allow some audibles to be called, a whole bunch of plays we called for #80, and our coach didn't attempt to "out-couch" the other sideline.

I am sure that Kubiak has seen his coaching-life flash before his eyes the last couple weeks, and I'm hoping that it has humbled him. I liked that we saw Quin, McCain and Foster in the games at important times.

Clearly Kubes has the support from the players and the management, so I think I will take it easy on the guy for now.

I'm still not sold on this. I can see 8-8 again and that isn't good enough. As much as I think McNair is lost about some things he understands the bottom line and I've seen other reports here that he may be looking in a different direction if he doesn't win out. The pattern here is to keep someone too long but I think the fact that the season pattern has become so predictable works against Kubes. I also think his speech works against him. Why wouldn't you pull that out to start the season, mid-season, etc,... not to just save your job.

Vinny
12-14-2009, 12:00 PM
I'm still not sold on this. I can see 8-8 again and that isn't good enough. As much as I think McNair is lost about some things he understand the bottom line and I've seen other reports here that he may be looking in a different direction if he doesn't win out. The pattern here is to keep someone too long but I think the fact that the season pattern has become so predictable works against Kubes. I also think his speech works against him. Why wouldn't you pull that out to start the season, mid-sseason, etc, not to just save your job.tons of empty seats yesterday.

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 12:03 PM
It think its time to accept that Kubiak will be getting another year whether you like or not. So, we might as well take what positives we can from that game. I saw Kubiak allow some audibles to be called, a whole bunch of plays we called for #80, and our coach didn't attempt to "out-couch" the other sideline.

I am sure that Kubiak has seen his coaching-life flash before his eyes the last couple weeks, and I'm hoping that it has humbled him. I liked that we saw Quin, McCain and Foster in the games at important times.

Clearly Kubes has the support from the players and the management, so I think I will take it easy on the guy for now.

You mean Kubiak has changed? He's gonna play the best players on his roster,
despite their age? Has Chris Brown been sat down in favor of Arian
Foster? Should we forgive the fact he held on to Richard Smith a year too
long? What's gonna happen once he starts believing his job is secure again?
Will his stubborn efforts to micromanage the playmakers on the roster stunt
the progress of this team again?

Kubiak is our coach of the future.
:sarcasm:

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 12:17 PM
It think its time to accept that Kubiak will be getting another year whether you like or not. So, we might as well take what positives we can from that game. I saw Kubiak allow some audibles to be called, a whole bunch of plays we called for #80, and our coach didn't attempt to "out-couch" the other sideline.

I am sure that Kubiak has seen his coaching-life flash before his eyes the last couple weeks, and I'm hoping that it has humbled him. I liked that we saw Quin, McCain and Foster in the games at important times.

Clearly Kubes has the support from the players and the management, so I think I will take it easy on the guy for now.

Of course he has their support. It's their COMFORT ZONE. They know that
if he's gone, a lot is gonna change. Change is not comfortable. Continuity
is great and all, but what are we continuing?

Should we continue our 7-17 record in the division?
Should we continue our sub .500 record against teams that actually LOOK
to make the playoffs?
Should we continue to look woefully unprepared against rookie quarterbacks?

Continuity...

.....is only good when you're continuing to WIN.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 12:21 PM
Saw these posted in a response in a paper article....

Kubes has one win this season vs a winning team(Bengals)

Kubes has ONLY 3 wins in 4 years against teams with winning records.

J_R
12-14-2009, 12:24 PM
You mean Kubiak has changed? He's gonna play the best players on his roster,
despite their age? Has Chris Brown been sat down in favor of Arian
Foster? Should we forgive the fact he held on to Richard Smith a year too
long? What's gonna happen once he starts believing his job is secure again?
Will his stubborn efforts to micromanage the playmakers on the roster stunt
the progress of this team again?

Kubiak is our coach of the future.

Exactly. I posted a similar thing at the HT.com boards.

Signs of desperate times?

Kubiak is going all out to save his job? What? Why all the sudden now Gary?

1. Holds a "meeting" speaking of his love for football, his players, and the Texans. Really!? This talk seemed to inspire his players so much, they went out and won big. Afterwards the players then come out expressing their love for the HC. So where was this the previous 13 weeks? Why did it take so long? It takes your job being on the line to inspire your players and to get them ready? Why cant they play inspired ball in the big games? Why all the sudden now Gary? What took so long?

2. Schaub was allowed to audible yesterday! What has the world come to? Matt Schaub allowed to audible? GK rarely allows his QB to audible. Why all the sudden now Gary? What took so long?

3. The previous 4 weeks GK decides to start Chris Brown? Chris Brown?! The least productive back out there. Now you start giving carries to Ryan Moats and Arian Foster. You're 14 weeks late(ok 4 weeks too late). Why all the sudden now Gary? What took so long?


So is this what it takes? It takes your job being on the line to get your head out your arse? Why all the sudden now Gary? What took so long?

I guess desperate times call for desperate measures.

PHAROAH
12-14-2009, 12:29 PM
Kubiak must go there is no way we keep this coach who can't get his guys up to win the games that mean the most. I don't care if we finish 9-7 it is time to get a real coaching staff in here to get this team into the playoffs on a steady basis.

beerlover
12-14-2009, 12:29 PM
clearly we have reached the point where people have clear agendas :bubbles:

Mr. White
12-14-2009, 12:34 PM
clearly we have reached the point where people have clear agendas :bubbles:

If wanting my team to address it's impediments and get to the playoffs is an agenda....guilty as charged.

Blake
12-14-2009, 12:39 PM
Kubiak is awesome! I wish the players would execute his awesome gameplan better.

Runner
12-14-2009, 12:43 PM
Kubes has one win this season vs a winning team(Bengals).

Really?


Kubes has ONLY 3 wins in 4 years against teams with winning records.

Really????!!!!!!!

I had no idea. Wow.

eriadoc
12-14-2009, 12:57 PM
Actually, Kubes has two wins against teams with a winning record, since the Tacks are now 7-6.

/saltinwound

Runner
12-14-2009, 01:00 PM
Actually, Kubes has two wins against teams with a winning record, since the Tacks are now 7-6.

/saltinwound

I was thinking about that. It must be when they play, not the end of season record.

Maybe the Texans are a good get well pill for struggling teams.

ChampionTexan
12-14-2009, 01:07 PM
Actually, Kubes has two wins against teams with a winning record, since the Tacks are now 7-6.

/saltinwound

I was thinking about that. It must be when they play, not the end of season record.

Maybe the Texans are a good get well pill for struggling teams.

Tacks are 6-7 just like the Texans. The original point stands (not beating a winning team other than the Bengals).

Runner
12-14-2009, 01:09 PM
Actually, Kubes has two wins against teams with a winning record, since the Tacks are now 7-6.

/saltinwound

I was thinking about that. It must be when they play, not the end of season record.

Maybe the Texans are a good get well pill for struggling teams.

Tacks are 6-7 just like the Texans. The original point stands (not beating a winning team other than the Bengals).

I was wondering about the previous years too. It seems like such a low number to me...

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 01:12 PM
I was wondering about the previous years too. It seems like such a low number to me...

As I said, I saw the stat posted by someone on a blog comment and passed it on. I wondered the same though...final record or "at the time" record.

So here are the wins

2006: 6-10: Dolphins (6-10), Jags (twice) (8-8), Oakland (2-14), Indy (12-4), Cleveland (4-12)....there is 1

2007: 8-8: KC (4-12), Carolina (7-9), Miami (1-15), Oakland (4-12), New Orleans (7-9), Tampa (9-7), Denver (7-9), J'Ville (11-5)....there is 2

2008: 8-8: Miami(11-5), Detroit (0-16), Cincy (4-11-1), Cleveland (4-12), J'Ville (5-11), Green Bay (6-10), Tennessee (13-3), Chicago(9-7)....so there is 3.


So 6 overall in the previous 3 years....7 up until now..when counting total record. So that blogger may have meant at the time of playing.

Runner
12-14-2009, 01:15 PM
I was wondering about the previous years too. It seems like such a low number to me...

As I said, I saw the stat posted by someone on a blog comment and passed it on. I wondered the same though...final record or "at the time" record.

I think someone less lazy than me needs to check this out.

:)

ChampionTexan
12-14-2009, 01:26 PM
As I said, I saw the stat posted by someone on a blog comment and passed it on. I wondered the same though...final record or "at the time" record.

So here are the wins

2006: 6-10: Dolphins, Jags (twice), Oakland, Indy, Cleveland

2007: 8-8: KC, Carolina, Miami, Oakland, New Orleans, Tampa, Denver, J'Ville

2008: 8-8: Miami, Detrot, Cincy, Cleveland, J'Ville, Green Bay, Tennessee, Chicao

Actually, last year, Miami, Tennessee, and Chicago all finished above .500 (and were above .500 when the Texans played them), and in 2007 J'ville was above .500, so there's four right there. There may be more, but when I figured out the stat was wrong, I wasn't concerned with how wrong, although if it's all four years, the Bengals make it at least 5.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 01:34 PM
Actually, last year, Miami, Tennessee, and Chicago all finished above .500 (and were above .500 when the Texans played them), and in 2007 J'ville was above .500, so there's four right there. There may be more, but when I figured out the stat was wrong, I wasn't concerned with how wrong, although if it's all four years, the Bengals make it at least 5.

I think someone less lazy than me needs to check this out.

:)

2006: 6-10: Dolphins (6-10), Jags (twice) (8-8), Oakland (2-14), Indy (12-4), Cleveland (4-12)....there is 1

2007: 8-8: KC (4-12), Carolina (7-9), Miami (1-15), Oakland (4-12), New Orleans (7-9), Tampa (9-7), Denver (7-9), J'Ville (11-5)....there is 2

2008: 8-8: Miami(11-5), Detroit (0-16), Cincy (4-11-1), Cleveland (4-12), J'Ville (5-11), Green Bay (6-10), Tennessee (13-3), Chicago(9-7)....so there is 3.


So 6 overall in the previous 3 years....7 up until now..when counting total record. So that blogger may have meant at the time of playing because I know Miami had a losing record at the time last year.

ChampionTexan
12-14-2009, 01:40 PM
2006: 6-10: Dolphins (6-10), Jags (twice) (8-8), Oakland (2-14), Indy (12-4), Cleveland (4-12)....there is 1

2007: 8-8: KC (4-12), Carolina (7-9), Miami (1-15), Oakland (4-12), New Orleans (7-9), Tampa (9-7), Denver (7-9), J'Ville (11-5)....there is 2

2008: 8-8: Miami(11-5), Detroit (0-16), Cincy (4-11-1), Cleveland (4-12), J'Ville (5-11), Green Bay (6-10), Tennessee (13-3), Chicago(9-7)....so there is 3.


So 6 overall in the previous 3 years....7 up until now..when counting total record. So that blogger may have meant at the time of playing because I know Miami had a losing record at the time last year.

Actually, they were 2-2, so my comment earlier, and your comment in this post are both wrong.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 01:44 PM
Actually, they were 2-2, so my comment earlier, and your comment in this post are both wrong.

Ok, so including this year 7 teams out of 28 wins for total year end record. Too much work to check record at the time

beerlover
12-14-2009, 02:35 PM
If wanting my team to address it's impediments and get to the playoffs is an agenda....guilty as charged.

my analogy: if you don't have the receipe (game plan) it doesn't matter how good the ingrediants (players) or how it's executed (coached) your not going to achieve the desired results (win). It took me three tries to nail this beer, which is like par & while the first two did not fit my desired result (win in competition) they still both tasted pretty good (its beer). I would say the same thing about Kubiak & Texans (its NFL). So if Kubiak has learned proper receipe management w/game planning we will all be happy with the results :stirpot:

ObsiWan
12-14-2009, 02:47 PM
What has he shown you that warrants another year?

What will be different next year?

I'd prefer something empirical. Something measurable.

How about this:
since Kubiak got here we've had only one losing season.
before Kubiak, ALL losing seasons. Every one of them.


But I think you're asking the wrong question.
The real question is: were we really, truly good enough for the high expectations that some folks - me included - had at the beginning of the year??

Maybe the cold, hard, truth of it is: we were not.

Yeah, we were better than we used to be. Much better. But the hard core truth is, we still have missing pieces.

We don't have a Drew Brees or a Peyton Manning running our show on offense. We don't have a Adrian Peterson or Chris Johnson - with the O-lines in front of them - powering our running attack. Slaton was good last year but suffered a bad case of sophomore jinx this year. And as much as we like Double S, there's not one of you who wouldn't trade him for A.P. straight up. Not one. Me included.

Nobody's totally happy with our DBs. Who here wouldn't give up Domanick Barber or Eugene Wilson for Polomalu or a guy with Darren Sharper's nose for the ball.

Once we lost O.D. we were stuck with an "okay" guy at T.E. Be honest, we all know that Dressen's just "okay". He's no where close to a O.D. replacement unit. And neither of the rookie TEs are ready.

Now you know, I could go on. But the lesson is, there are only 6-7 positions out of our 22 starters where we wouldn't take an upgrade. And I'm actually having trouble coming up with 6.

So, again, I ask: Were our expectations for this season too high and were our early season evaluations too rose-colored.

Looks to me like the answer is "yes".

And I don't think any coach you could name would have done better given the upgrades we still need.

mussop
12-14-2009, 02:48 PM
Kubiak should stay because his teams play so good in games that matter and because he performs so well in the division. I mean the guy almost has a .200 divisional record. Why should he stay? I cant even begin to count the reasons. He is a genius at inspiring his troops and his teams are so disciplined and don't get stupid penalties or do stupid things. Why not just resign the guy to a 10 year contract. He is winning 2 out of 10 divisional games...that is freaking awesome. Cowher can't even hold Kubiak's jock. Kubiak is a winner. yeah, he is a losing head coach but he coaches for us, so he is a winner and he just has to be the answer. screw looking at things like stats and trends and reality. He is a Texans head coach and is a local 'hero' so he has to be good. Logic and facts be damned.

how dare anyone question Kubiak. who knows maybe if we are patient he just may win 2 divisional games next year. that would be awesome.

i am so geeked up for next year. we are going to be so awesome. hooray for Big Game Gary.

Ok Joe Texan, what did you do with Second Honeymoon?

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 02:55 PM
Ok Joe Texan, what did you do with Second Honeymoon?

If you take the last line of his post IN CONTEXT, then you'd understand
that it's dripping with :sarcasm:

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 03:00 PM
How about this:
since Kubiak got here we've had only one losing season.
before Kubiak, ALL losing seasons. Every one of them.


But I think you're asking the wrong question.
The real question is: were we really, truly good enough for the high expectations that some folks - me included - had at the beginning of the year??

Maybe the cold, hard, truth of it is: we were not.

Yeah, we were better than we used to be. Much better. But the hard core truth is, we still have missing pieces.

We don't have a Drew Brees or a Peyton Manning running our show on offense. We don't have a Adrian Peterson or Chris Johnson - with the O-lines in front of them - powering our running attack. Slaton was good last year but suffered a bad case of sophomore jinx this year. And as much as we like Double S, there's not one of you who wouldn't trade him for A.P. straight up. Not one. Me included.

Nobody's totally happy with our DBs. Who here wouldn't give up Domanick Barber or Eugene Wilson for Polomalu or a guy with Darren Sharper's nose for the ball.

Once we lost O.D. we were stuck with an "okay" guy at T.E. Be honest, we all know that Dressen's just "okay". He's no where close to a O.D. replacement unit. And neither of the rookie TEs are ready.

Now you know, I could go on. But the lesson is, there are only 6-7 positions out of our 22 starters where we wouldn't take an upgrade. And I'm actually having trouble coming up with 6.

So, again, I ask: Were our expectations for this season too high and were our early season evaluations too rose-colored.

Looks to me like the answer is "yes".

And I don't think any coach you could name would have done better given the upgrades we still need.

It's unrealistic to expect probowlers at EVERY position. The bottom line
is this team has the talent to have won more than 6 games up to this point.
They threw 3 wins away early in the season with a defense on pace to
be the worst in history. They threw another win away against the Jets, in
a game that featured a ROOKIE head coach, and a ROOKIE quarterback.
Both were made to look like "hall-of-famers" in their first ever starts.

Are you saying this team is less talented than Jacksonville, Miami, Baltimore,
or Tennessee?? I seem to remember this team putting up points in bunches
when they get DOWN 3 scores or more. Why couldn't they START a game
with that type of intensity? Coaching has stunted the growth of this
team, and it's time to admit it.

Blake
12-14-2009, 03:01 PM
Peter King MMQB.

Ten Things I Think I Think.

b. Now that the games mean nothing, here come the Texans. Again.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 03:02 PM
Peter King MMQB.

Ten Things I Think I Think.

b. Now that the games mean nothing, here come the Texans. Again.




I put this in another thread this morning..so true

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67900&page=2

mussop
12-14-2009, 03:04 PM
How about this:
since Kubiak got here we've had only one losing season.
before Kubiak, ALL losing seasons. Every one of them.


But I think you're asking the wrong question.
The real question is: were we really, truly good enough for the high expectations that some folks - me included - had at the beginning of the year??

Maybe the cold, hard, truth of it is: we were not.

Yeah, we were better than we used to be. Much better. But the hard core truth is, we still have missing pieces.

We don't have a Drew Brees or a Peyton Manning running our show on offense. We don't have a Adrian Peterson or Chris Johnson - with the O-lines in front of them - powering our running attack. Slaton was good last year but suffered a bad case of sophomore jinx this year. And as much as we like Double S, there's not one of you who wouldn't trade him for A.P. straight up. Not one. Me included.

Nobody's totally happy with our DBs. Who here wouldn't give up Domanick Barber or Eugene Wilson for Polomalu or a guy with Darren Sharper's nose for the ball.

Once we lost O.D. we were stuck with an "okay" guy at T.E. Be honest, we all know that Dressen's just "okay". He's no where close to a O.D. replacement unit. And neither of the rookie TEs are ready.

Now you know, I could go on. But the lesson is, there are only 6-7 positions out of our 22 starters where we wouldn't take an upgrade. And I'm actually having trouble coming up with 6.

So, again, I ask: Were our expectations for this season too high and were our early season evaluations too rose-colored.

Looks to me like the answer is "yes".

And I don't think any coach you could name would have done better given the upgrades we still need.

This is horrible.

Who cares waht happend 5 years ago and before? And you might of had high expectations but that doesnt mean everyone did.

Oh yeh and we could of had Adrian Peterson but our mediocre coach won a bunch of meeningless games at the end of the year and to put us out of the running for him. Hell even so we could of had Willis but we got cute and drafted a 19 year old who still hasnt developed.

And seriously show me another team that couldnt use an upgrade at most positions. You cant have allpros at every position. This aint Madden.

DerekLee1
12-14-2009, 03:04 PM
I put this in another thread this morning..so true

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67900&page=2

I wonder if the Dolphins and Pats think these upcoming games "mean nothing"?

eriadoc
12-14-2009, 03:17 PM
I wonder if the Dolphins and Pats think these upcoming games "mean nothing"?

I wonder if the Dolphins and Pats think these upcoming games mean anything to the Texans' season.

Of course they mean something to the Phins and Pats. Why the hell should we care? Unless you're suggesting we all become fans of those teams, since the games mean something to them.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 03:28 PM
I wonder if the Dolphins and Pats think these upcoming games "mean nothing"?

No, because they are fighting for something. But they mean nothing to the Texans. Got it?

I wonder if the Dolphins and Pats think these upcoming games mean anything to the Texans' season.

Of course they mean something to the Phins and Pats. Why the hell should we care? Unless you're suggesting we all become fans of those teams, since the games mean something to them.

Beat me to it

ObsiWan
12-14-2009, 03:56 PM
This is horrible.

Who cares waht happend 5 years ago and before? And you might of had high expectations but that doesnt mean everyone did.

Oh yeh and we could of had Adrian Peterson but our mediocre coach won a bunch of meeningless games at the end of the year and to put us out of the running for him. Hell even so we could of had Willis but we got cute and drafted a 19 year old who still hasnt developed.

And seriously show me another team that couldnt use an upgrade at most positions. You cant have allpros at every position. This aint Madden.

So you won't face the simple fact that we really are only as good as our record says we are? No, we're not a sucky team any longer but we still need a few more pieces before we're "elite". That's a fact and changing the coach won't change that.

Sure, I would have liked Willis, but Cushing will do nicely, thank you. And I'd rather win "meaningless games" than have the team "mail it in" so we can draft in the top 5. Talk about "horrible"... that train of thought boggles my mind.

mussop
12-14-2009, 06:18 PM
So you won't face the simple fact that we really are only as good as our record says we are? No, we're not a sucky team any longer but we still need a few more pieces before we're "elite". That's a fact and changing the coach won't change that.

Im dumbfounded by this paragraph. Just speachless!!!! :wacko:

Mr. White
12-14-2009, 06:34 PM
But I think you're asking the wrong question.
The real question is: were we really, truly good enough for the high expectations that some folks - me included - had at the beginning of the year??

Funny thing.....all the Tracy McGrady apologists on Clutch Fans are pointing to "high expectations" as well.

After 2 years consecutive .500 seasons, expectations are exactly where they should be.

Thorn
12-14-2009, 06:37 PM
Im dumbfounded by this paragraph. Just speachless!!!! :wacko:

what about that paragragh didn't make sense? We are missing some pieces. Maybe another coach could get more out of what we have, but we are nonetheless missing some cogs in the machinery. I don't care who our coach would have been this year, this team isn't ready to go to the super bowl yet.

Vinny
12-14-2009, 06:39 PM
what about that paragragh didn't make sense? We are missing some pieces. Maybe another coach could get more out of what we have, but we are nonetheless missing some cogs in the machinery. I don't care who our coach would have been this year, this team isn't ready to go to the super bowl yet.
If you think this team doesn't have enough talent to be a playoff team it makes me wonder if you watch other teams at all. Every team has flaws. Nobody is loaded at all positions. You don't have to have a dozen all pros to make the playoffs.

Thorn
12-14-2009, 06:41 PM
If you think this team doesn't have enough talent to be a playoff team it makes me wonder if you watch other teams at all. Every team has flaws. Nobody is loaded at all positions. You don't have to have a dozen all pros to make the playoffs.

to make the playoffs you're right. We have all the talent we need to make the playoffs, I agree. But to win a super bowl? Nope, we ain't there yet.

Pantherstang84
12-14-2009, 06:46 PM
This is horrible.

Who cares waht happend 5 years ago and before? And you might of had high expectations but that doesnt mean everyone did.

Oh yeh and we could of had Adrian Peterson but our mediocre coach won a bunch of meeningless games at the end of the year and to put us out of the running for him. Hell even so we could of had Willis but we got cute and drafted a 19 year old who still hasnt developed.

And seriously show me another team that couldnt use an upgrade at most positions. You cant have allpros at every position. This aint Madden.

I don't know if you intended this meaning but it is time for my football soap box speech...

Two inventions have ruined professional football fandom in the last 20 years...

1. Fantasy Football
2. Madden NFL Football

These two inventions have turned every ***** with a game controller and/or keyboard into a bunch of General Manager/Head Coach wannabes.

To anyone who ever suggests a professional football team should intentionally lose games just to improve their draft position, I award you three :clown: :clown: :clown:

ArlingtonTexan
12-14-2009, 07:16 PM
If you think this team doesn't have enough talent to be a playoff team it makes me wonder if you watch other teams at all. Every team has flaws. Nobody is loaded at all positions. You don't have to have a dozen all pros to make the playoffs.

The biggest thing that Texans did not do to make the playoffs and contend for a Superbowl is to become dynamic in some area. The Steelers had a dynamic pass rush and were okay most other area. the Cards had a dynamic passing game. Same thing the year before, Giants dynamic pass rush, Pats dynamic passing game. In short, become excellent somewhere and make teams adjust to what you are doing.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 07:27 PM
It was funny on the way home...5-5:15...I was listening to Charlie and a Kubes fan called in....I'm sure it is one of the ones here attempting to get ammo. Told Charlie he was the most rational sports voice out there and then asked if he would agree that the Texans have improved every year. Charlie said no and said the offense isn't as good because of the running game, etc. Kubes fan didn't like said answer and tried to convince Charlie, who continued to diagree. Then the fan stated that a new coach would destroy everything we had built and used Detroit and Wshington as examples. Charlie told them to be fair and he could use Baltimore, Atlanta and Miami as examples of it working. Fan wasn't happy with this answer either from the most "rational person" and went silent and off the air. It was like being here at times.

Thorn
12-14-2009, 07:32 PM
Fan wasn't happy with this answer either from the most "rational person" and went silent and off the air. It was like being here at times.

Are you insinuating we all here are not experts? How dare you! :foottap:

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 07:36 PM
It was funny on the way home...5-5:15...I was listening to Charlie and a Kubes fan called in....I'm sure it is one of the ones here attempting to get ammo. Told Charlie he was the most rational sports voice out there and then asked if he would agree that the Texans have improved every year. Charlie said no and said the offense isn't as good because of the running game, etc. Kubes fan didn't like said answer and tried to convince Charlie, who continued to diagree. Then the fan stated that a new coach would destroy everything we had built and used Detroit and Wshington as examples. Charlie told them to be fair and he could use Baltimore, Atlanta and Miami as examples of it working. Fan wasn't happy with this answer either from the most "rational person" and went silent and off the air. It was like being here at times.

LOLZ. Fire Kubiak, and this organization will burn. Gimme a break.

Second Honeymoon
12-14-2009, 07:46 PM
at least most of them are talking about the game, the players and the coaches. You are getting to the point where most of your posts center around the posters.

this is the same mensa that had Carr's picture up on his high school locker next to TigerBeat pictures of Justin Timberlake and Johnny Depp.

not exactly the type of objective opinion that is to be respected.

Second Honeymoon
12-14-2009, 07:50 PM
tons of empty seats yesterday.

tons and tons including mine...

...have a good excuse though...we were blessed with a brand new baby girl Wednesday and its a little hectic

Chelsea Lee Van Horne 12/09 9:09 AM

as for the 4 tickets...i couldnt even find anyone who wanted to go in my place

Second Honeymoon
12-14-2009, 07:52 PM
Ok Joe Texan, what did you do with Second Honeymoon?

he ate me and i am living off only battle red kool aid and twinkies in his stomach

Mr. White
12-14-2009, 08:05 PM
tons and tons including mine...

...have a good excuse though...we were blessed with a brand new baby girl Wednesday and its a little hectic

Chelsea Lee Van Horne 12/09 9:09 AM

as for the 4 tickets...i couldnt even find anyone who wanted to go in my place

That's awesome. Congrats, Doug.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 08:35 PM
Are you insinuating we all here are not experts? How dare you! :foottap:

:) Just thought it was funny and sounded alot like the arguments here with no give.

Runner
12-14-2009, 09:01 PM
To anyone who ever suggests a professional football team should intentionally lose games just to improve their draft position, I award you three :clown: :clown: :clown:

As an aside, the NBA instituted a draft lottery because of end the year tanking. In fact, doesn't Houston owe Olajuwon and therefore a couple of NBA Championships to such shenanigans?

A very quick Google search returned this:

http://reclinergm.wordpress.com/2008/01/19/coin-flip-to-lottery-did-the-rockets-tank-to-get-olajuwon/

Lucky
12-14-2009, 09:49 PM
Saw these posted in a response in a paper article....

Kubes has one win this season vs a winning team(Bengals)
True.

Kubes has ONLY 3 wins in 4 years against teams with winning records.
False.
The Texans are 7-25 against teams with winning records in the Kubiak era.

Give the man an extension.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2009, 10:16 PM
True.


False.
The Texans are 7-25 against teams with winning records in the Kubiak era.

Give the man an extension.

Yeah, I ended up correcting it below that post and went through the games. Still is poor.

mussop
12-14-2009, 10:42 PM
what about that paragragh didn't make sense? We are missing some pieces. Maybe another coach could get more out of what we have, but we are nonetheless missing some cogs in the machinery. I don't care who our coach would have been this year, this team isn't ready to go to the super bowl yet.

I never mentioned the word Superbowl nor was it in the paragraph that got me dizzy reading. What confused me was his stance that we were only as good as our record (6 & 7) yet we are only a few pieces away from being elite. And thats a fact? :hmmm:

DexmanC
12-14-2009, 10:47 PM
I never mentioned the word Superbowl nor was it in the paragraph that got me dizzy reading. What confused me was his stance that we were only as good as our record (6 & 7) yet we are only a few pieces away from being elite. And thats a fact? :hmmm:

Yes. It IS a fact. Unfortunately, one of those "pieces" is at head coach.

mussop
12-14-2009, 10:48 PM
Good points made in this thread from the pink soapers

consistently see too many opportunities to do the little things winning teams do, that we don't do. Like pick up additional yardage with 8 seconds on the clock and 1 timeout. Or try to get the ball to your best player inside the 10 yard line, not have him block on a play most saw coming.

4 years is long enough for someone to turn a team into a winner. Kubiak has failed to do so and other coaches have done it quicker and with no more to work with than Kubiak has had.

Kubiak's problem is he is too loyal to players and coaches that suck. Myers should be gone. Richard Smith should have been gone after his first season. Weaver was kept around too long. Chris Brown still sucks.

Cowher says he won't talk to any teams that still have a coach.

we are 1-5 in or division this year, and we got the 1 win against a team that was starting an 0-6 run. Kubiak has built a team whose achilles heel is the teams in its own division.

Every D in the league knows Schaub can only audible to run plays....so he doesn't audible.

McNair gave Dom Capers the boot as his head coach after four playoff-less seasons, and Kubiak now deserves the exact same treatment. Despite having some of the most gifted players in the league at several positions, the Texans lack heart, killer instinct and the know-how to win. If that's not a reflection on a head coach's leadership, what pray tell is?

Why wait until the end of the season? Getting the new guy, now, can get his feet onto the ground and with the players before the season is done.
four years without one winning season is failure.

do we hope Kubiak pulls it together next season and give him another year? And, if we do give him another year and he doesn't pull it off, we'll fire him, but that would put us a year behind where we COULD HAVE BEEN had we fired him THIS year.

Miami, Atlanta, Denver, New Orleans, I could go on. Teams can switch coaches and immediately make the playoffs.

am not for firing Kubiak just to fire him. it has to be an upgrade and this is the year for hiring a top head coach.

are you really going to bring Kubiak back as a lame duck coach without a contract or God forbid, re-sign him to an extension?

All of the stupid mistakes are on those coaches as much as the players.

Is it out of the question to think a new coach, with different strengths and weaknesses, might correct some of the long running problems with this team while building on the foundation Kubiak has put in place?

The team is getting better and better each year...the bad thing is the losses are more heartbreaking because the team is getting better and better.
Kubiak has only managed to beat Capers best record by one win...in 3 years. For a guy who has brought the team so far he sure does have a crappy record.

Given the Jekyll / Hyde of this team this team has shown from one half to the next in every game this year (w/ poss. exception of Bengals) one of two things must be true. Either: A) Kubiak & Co. performed miracles keepng us tied / ahead in games we had no business being in. or.. B) We are really as talented as we looked in the "good" half and the other half was so dreadfully coached, executed, etc. that it was painful to watch.

2009 - Week 13 - 5-7
2008 - Week 13 - 5-7
2007 - Week 13 - 5-7

At the end of the season, you are what your record says you are. When it's obvious that the talent has improved, but the record stays the same...who do you blame?

If this "improved" team finishes 8-8 next year, do you give Kubiak a new contract or let him go?

But can anybody really argue that Kubiak himself has improved? Does anyone yet have any confidence in Kubiak's clock management? Does anyone yet have any confidence in his game preparation? Does anybody yet have any confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments? Does anybody yet have any confidence that, when the game is on the line, Kubiak will make the right decisions?

The team has improved under Kubiak. The Texans have better, more talented personnel. They're no longer the abomination of a team that they were pre-Kubiak.

But Kubiak is still making the same mistakes he made in his first season. If he's not going to get any better at his job, then why should he be kept around to drag the team down?

these are the teams that haven't made the playoffs since 2002. There's always next year!

Detroit Lions
Buffalo Bills
Houston Texans

Why assume that a replacement can't be found? Is it a complete lack of confidence in Bob McNair's ability to attract a competent and proven head coach? The reasoning that Kubiak should stay because the Texans are unable to bring in a quality coach is depressing. I guess I have more optimism. Maybe that's unfounded, but you can't fire the owner.
44 Kubiak coached games and absolutely zero big wins.

inability to win an important game or have more than 5 wins before week 14 in 3 years and 48 regular season games.

they come out of the bye with the idea that Chris Brown is their best option at HB... Moats looked great at Indy and today yet he couldn't get touches even with Slaton sidelined.

In the off-season, they inexplicably don't address the safety position. So, they are content with Barber, Wilson, and Ferguson as primary backup. We had cap room and also players like Sean Jones available for almost nothing.

still haven't figured out that our current group of OLmen can't run the zone scheme every freakin' play!

Why on earth is Kyle Shanahan more qualified to call plays than Matt Schaub? Schaub's intelligent and knows what he's doing. Instead, they continue to handcuff him.

Richard Smith lasted 3 seasons! that's too long. If you're working with a guy every day for years, it shouldn't take 3 years to realize he's a moron!
Inconsistency with teams are the head coach's responsibility, plain and simple.

What I don't get is, this team can't handle pressure of expectations. If Kubiak comes back next year, do they know how much pressure they will be under? It's going to be insane. If Gary even blinks wrong the fans are going to kill him.

One thing is for certain: It would be difficult to bring in any new assistants, when they know Kubiak is in his last season. So, McNair had better hope none of his assistants decide to retire (like Alex Gibbs) or move on to other club (like baby Shanny following his dad somewhere). It would also be difficult to sign a top free agent, when the coaching situation is unstabilized.


years is a long time period in the NFL. The average NFL career is less than 4 years. Most NFL player contracts are 4 years or less. A team has to be built in less than 4 years, or the players you are building around will be gone. That's just the reality that is the NFL. Great organizations realize this and constantly reload their talent. While winning.

What good is a top 10 YPG offense if it cnt score when the game is on the line?

McDaniels will accomplish something in his first season that Kubiak has failed to in four. It's about results. It's about performance. No one has to judge Kubiak on potential, like a draft prospect. Kubiak has a 4 year track record. And that record clearly show that he has not gotten the job done.
The coach also has to play the players who give them the best opportunity to win. Not take our best player off the field in crunch time like the 1st Jags game and Cardinals game. It would also help if we stopped forcing a square peg into a round hole (I.E. everything having to do with Chris Brown this season. MAYBE our 4th best RB?)

Chris Brown doesn't give us the best chance to win, yet we gave him the ball in crucial situations that contributed to 3 of our losses. That's on the coach for not getting the ball to a better player (like maybe that Andre Johnson guy?)

Lets not forget that we didn't sign Pollard until week 3 when our safety play was some of the worst in NFL history...
You know, it's the same thing EVERY year. We pick up rather meaningless wins in meaningless December games. I don't care that we won this game by 27 points. It doesn't really matter. I'm watching to see if the problems that we have been suffering from all season are getting worked out. And they aren't.

I watch other football teams, that can actually run the ball when they need to. Teams that have balance in their offense. We don't have that. Sure we can beat a 5-7 Seattle team that is injury riddled, and really just bad in almost every facet of the game. But when it comes to beating our division opponents, or just games that we need to win PERIOD, we fail using the same formula almost every time.

But there’s no doubt that Texans offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan will join his father Mike, probably in Washington when he returns to coaching next year. Kyle is a very bright coach who will be his father’s offensive coordinator.

Couldn't agree more, in fact, I feel what we saw today was just a continuation of the same old BS. The offense failed to play 4 quarters of football. If our competition had continued to play, we'd have probably seen the typical fold by our team at the end of the game.

Who the hell let's the foot off the gas in the second half like that seriously.. put them away keep your foot on the gas and keep going. Another playing not to lose half by Gary Kubiak, signed by Gary Kubiak..

The Texans are 7-25 against teams with winning records in the Kubiak era.

dalemurphy
12-14-2009, 10:58 PM
tons and tons including mine...

...have a good excuse though...we were blessed with a brand new baby girl wednesday and its a little hectic

chelsea lee van horne 12/09 9:09 am

as for the 4 tickets...i couldnt even find anyone who wanted to go in my place

congratulations!

J_R
12-14-2009, 11:21 PM
Mussop, how much rep can I give for this post? In all seriousness, wow. You more than hit the nail on head. Agree 100% with everything.

Grams
12-15-2009, 06:23 AM
I am still "on the fence" with Kubiak. I see both sides and agree with some of both. I do not want a change just to change.

What I would like to see the remainder of the games from Kubiak:

Go for the throat - both offense and defense. Hit them hard and hit them harder. Run up that score. Beat them down.

Show confidence in the OC. You made him OC, let him run the offense and lose the "Denny's menu".

Show confidence in your kicker. Watch the fieldgoals. Just like you kid playing in little league or performing on stage - parents do not turn their backs on them.

There are probably others but got to get ready for work.

Thorn
12-15-2009, 06:30 AM
I am still "on the fence" with Kubiak. I see both sides and agree with some of both. I do not want a change just to change.



A reasonable position to take. I do want him gone myself, but only if they can get a first-rate head coach with experience and rep. I do not want him replaced with another experimental newbie. Right now it's obvious the players support him, and as long as that's true and they can't find a good, experienced head coach, I would rather have Kubiak back next year than take a chance on another team's coordinator. Kubiak and Smith have built a good team, they're just not moving as fast as most of us want.

Mr. White
12-15-2009, 07:15 AM
It was funny on the way home...5-5:15...I was listening to Charlie and a Kubes fan called in....I'm sure it is one of the ones here attempting to get ammo. Told Charlie he was the most rational sports voice out there and then asked if he would agree that the Texans have improved every year. Charlie said no and said the offense isn't as good because of the running game, etc. Kubes fan didn't like said answer and tried to convince Charlie, who continued to diagree. Then the fan stated that a new coach would destroy everything we had built and used Detroit and Wshington as examples. Charlie told them to be fair and he could use Baltimore, Atlanta and Miami as examples of it working. Fan wasn't happy with this answer either from the most "rational person" and went silent and off the air. It was like being here at times.

That's a really good point about being improved since last year on offense.

Are we really sure that we have a better offense this year?

dalemurphy
12-15-2009, 08:24 AM
That's a really good point about being improved since last year on offense.

Are we really sure that we have a better offense this year?

We have much better QB play! and, that's making up for our pathetic rushing offense...

One of my worries with changing coaching staffs is the possible regression... or, at least the impeding of Schaub's progression to becoming a near elite level QB. He has made vast improvements this season and looks like he's really starting to take over as commander of that offense. His body language, possible audibling, etc... in the Seattle game were good signs, I thought.

Mr. White
12-15-2009, 08:31 AM
We have much better QB play! and, that's making up for our pathetic rushing offense...

One of my worries with changing coaching staffs is the possible regression... or, at least the impeding of Schaub's progression to becoming a near elite level QB. He has made vast improvements this season and looks like he's really starting to take over as commander of that offense. His body language, possible audibling, etc... in the Seattle game were good signs, I thought.

I won't argue that Schaub is better this year.

However, that doesn't make for an overall improvement on offense.

Pantherstang84
12-15-2009, 08:37 AM
A reasonable position to take. I do want him gone myself, but only if they can get a first-rate head coach with experience and rep. I do not want him replaced with another experimental newbie. Right now it's obvious the players support him, and as long as that's true and they can't find a good, experienced head coach, I would rather have Kubiak back next year than take a chance on another team's coordinator. Kubiak and Smith have built a good team, they're just not moving as fast as most of us want.

I would say I am right where you are. On the fence.

HoustonFrog
12-15-2009, 08:44 AM
That's a really good point about being improved since last year on offense.

Are we really sure that we have a better offense this year?

Yup, the offense was better last year when it was a more balanced attack. Yeah, the passing game looks great at times but it also can hamper you when you can't run the ball and you are a one trick pony against good teams. I definitely think they reverted there. Charlie had alot of good points to point to any improvement being "incremental" and that the reality is they are at the same place.

Pantherstang84
12-15-2009, 08:47 AM
Yup, the offense was better last year when it was a more balanced attack. Yeah, the passing game looks great at times but it also can hamper you when you can't run the ball and you are a one trick pony against good teams. I definitely think they reverted there. Charlie had alot of good points to point to any improvement being "incremental" and that the reality is they are at the same place.

I think losing both starting guards is the factor there. They really need to go after some oline depth this offseason.

Kaiser Toro
12-15-2009, 08:50 AM
We have much better QB play! and, that's making up for our pathetic rushing offense...

One of my worries with changing coaching staffs is the possible regression... or, at least the impeding of Schaub's progression to becoming a near elite level QB. He has made vast improvements this season and looks like he's really starting to take over as commander of that offense. His body language, possible audibling, etc... in the Seattle game were good signs, I thought.

Schaub has been healthy all year, relatively speaking. Not sure that should be considered a result of Kubiak's actions.

HoustonFrog
12-15-2009, 09:04 AM
We have much better QB play! and, that's making up for our pathetic rushing offense...

One of my worries with changing coaching staffs is the possible regression... or, at least the impeding of Schaub's progression to becoming a near elite level QB. He has made vast improvements this season and looks like he's really starting to take over as commander of that offense. His body language, possible audibling, etc... in the Seattle game were good signs, I thought.

Here is why I think an argument like this doesn't fly...or scare me. Schaub still has learned these things to make him effective. He can still be elite. So, lets say another guy comes in and the offense isn't like it is now but they still are strong. Let's say Schaub throws for less yards but is more efficient while the running game is fixed. Let's also say the new guy brings a different attitude. Wouldn't you rather win 10-11 games and have them be scores like 24-10 than have a high flying offense that is prone to breakdown at times? I would. I just think that the players can take the things that took them to 8-8 and someone else with more experince than Kubes can take them to another level.

dalemurphy
12-15-2009, 09:38 AM
Here is why I think an argument like this doesn't fly...or scare me. Schaub still has learned these things to make him effective. He can still be elite. So, lets say another guy comes in and the offense isn't like it is now but they still are strong. Let's say Schaub throws for less yards but is more efficient while the running game is fixed. Let's also say the new guy brings a different attitude. Wouldn't you rather win 10-11 games and have them be scores like 24-10 than have a high flying offense that is prone to breakdown at times? I would. I just think that the players can take the things that took them to 8-8 and someone else with more experince than Kubes can take them to another level.


Sure I would. However, I don't think Schaub's big numbers this season are a result of a pass-happy coaching staff trying to pad his stats. I think he has actually improved as a QB significantly under Kubiak. I see no reason not to expect further improvement. And, there's nothing to suggest that Kubiak won't be determined to fix the running game this off-season. He's fairly obsessed with running the ball.

If Schaub is as good, if not better, next year and the running game returns to 2008 form, this would be a dynamic offense to go along with a pretty good defense that I would expect to improve as well. I'm not saying that a change in coaching would definitely set back Schaub... it's just a concern I have, particularly not even knowing who the coach and his OC would be.

HoustonFrog
12-15-2009, 09:51 AM
Sure I would. However, I don't think Schaub's big numbers this season are a result of a pass-happy coaching staff trying to pad his stats. I think he has actually improved as a QB significantly under Kubiak. I see no reason not to expect further improvement. And, there's nothing to suggest that Kubiak won't be determined to fix the running game this off-season. He's fairly obsessed with running the ball.

If Schaub is as good, if not better, next year and the running game returns to 2008 form, this would be a dynamic offense to go along with a pretty good defense that I would expect to improve as well. I'm not saying that a change in coaching would definitely set back Schaub... it's just a concern I have, particularly not even knowing who the coach and his OC would be.

I wouldn't say pad his stats but I think after the Arizona first half they did decide that if they were to win games they would need to air it out and that is what they have done to try and win.

Double Barrel
12-15-2009, 10:54 AM
We have much better QB play! and, that's making up for our pathetic rushing offense...

One of my worries with changing coaching staffs is the possible regression... or, at least the impeding of Schaub's progression to becoming a near elite level QB. He has made vast improvements this season and looks like he's really starting to take over as commander of that offense. His body language, possible audibling, etc... in the Seattle game were good signs, I thought.

Regression is also possible with Kubiak as the head coach next season, as well.

I know that you are specifically talking about Schaub, but in the bigger picture of team, we could still backslide with complacency and staleness.

There is no guarantee either way.

TexansSeminole
12-15-2009, 11:05 AM
Sure I would. However, I don't think Schaub's big numbers this season are a result of a pass-happy coaching staff trying to pad his stats. I think he has actually improved as a QB significantly under Kubiak. I see no reason not to expect further improvement. And, there's nothing to suggest that Kubiak won't be determined to fix the running game this off-season. He's fairly obsessed with running the ball.

If Schaub is as good, if not better, next year and the running game returns to 2008 form, this would be a dynamic offense to go along with a pretty good defense that I would expect to improve as well. I'm not saying that a change in coaching would definitely set back Schaub... it's just a concern I have, particularly not even knowing who the coach and his OC would be.

.....

Top 5 QBs in passing attempts:

1. Peyton Manning: 502
2. Drew Brees: 490
3. Matt Schaub: 473
4. Jay Cutler: 457
5. Tony Romo: 444

Remember Schaub also was hurt for like an entire quarter, maybe longer in a game this year. So he missed out on like 10 throws. He averages 36.38 PA a game.

I'd say this staff is pretty pass happy. Always has been, especially at the end of games. Even last year. Remember Kubiak talking about "getting away from the ground game". "Shucks, I should have run it more."


I don't think it has anything to do with padding stats, it is just the personality of this offense, because it is the personality of Gary Kubiak. 4 years of it should tell you that it isn't going to change.

In 1,622 rushing attempts since the start of 2006 this team has rushed for an average of 3.866 yards per attempt. That's terrible.

Qtr CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA TD INT SACK RAT
1st 74 111 934 66.7 8.41 6 4 5.0 95.7

2nd 91 127 1133 71.7 8.92 10 2 6.0 118.6

3rd 71 105 806 67.6 7.68 4 3 5.0 91.2

4th 88 130 941 67.7 7.24 4 4 7.0 86.1

We get really pass happy in the 4th quarter. Always have. Schaub usually starts throwing INTs and fumbling because our playcalling becomes obvious.


Where do you get that Kubiak is "fairly obsessed with running the ball"? He's never put an emphasis on drafting running backs. He drafted Steve Slaton in the 3rd round hoping he would be a 3rd down back, basically hoping he could be a good receiving option. He goes after Ahman Green and Chris Brown. His offensive lineman are get smashed in run blocking. You can just look at their body types and can tell that they are all on the team for their pass blocking ability, not their run blocking ability.

Kubiak isn't obsessed with running the ball, he puts 0 emphasis on it. There's 4 years to show you that Kubiak won't be determined to fix the running game.

Runner
12-15-2009, 12:30 PM
I find the argument for keeping Kubiak of "the next coach might not be better" to be very pessimistic. There are several factors to consider.

1) Team resources, i.e. money. This area shouldn't be a problem given McNair's wealth, if he decides to use it to I prove his football team

2) Identifying the correct candidates and deciding on one. Given that I see many posts describing Smith as a very good to great GM, this should not be a problem. However, if (and I do mean if) Smith feels some loyalty or connection to Kubiak that would make it difficult for him to make a decision that puts the Texans well-being ahead of Kubiak's, then I suggest Smith isn't the right man for the job. Regardless of Smith's position, McNair can invest his resources in the search for a coach, so this shouldn't be a problem.

3) Availibilty of coaching talent. There has been much discussion about this, and there are good coaches available. Once again, McNair's resources can come into play.

4) The intangibles - there is some good talent on the team, great facility, low cost of living, football town, etc. While these factors may not sway a decision to accept a coaching job here, they don't hurt.

5) The target. The Texans are trying to replace a fourth year rookie head coach with ongoing weaknesses who has peaked at mediocrity and possibly regressed this year. He does have his strengths, but he nets out at average. The Texans are not trying to replace a winning coach with a long record of success.

So, the Texans:

a) have the resources to identify and attract a good coach

b) require a coach that just has to be better than average to be improvement.

The thought that the Texans would fail in finding a better coach is either the height of pessimism or says a lot about the opinion of the competency of the decision makers in the organization.

IMO.

barrett
12-15-2009, 12:35 PM
.....

Top 5 QBs in passing attempts:

1. Peyton Manning: 502
2. Drew Brees: 490
3. Matt Schaub: 473
4. Jay Cutler: 457
5. Tony Romo: 444

Remember Schaub also was hurt for like an entire quarter, maybe longer in a game this year. So he missed out on like 10 throws. He averages 36.38 PA a game.

I'd say this staff is pretty pass happy. Always has been, especially at the end of games. Even last year. Remember Kubiak talking about "getting away from the ground game". "Shucks, I should have run it more."


I don't think it has anything to do with padding stats, it is just the personality of this offense, because it is the personality of Gary Kubiak. 4 years of it should tell you that it isn't going to change.

In 1,622 rushing attempts since the start of 2006 this team has rushed for an average of 3.866 yards per attempt. That's terrible.

Qtr CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA TD INT SACK RAT
1st 74 111 934 66.7 8.41 6 4 5.0 95.7

2nd 91 127 1133 71.7 8.92 10 2 6.0 118.6

3rd 71 105 806 67.6 7.68 4 3 5.0 91.2

4th 88 130 941 67.7 7.24 4 4 7.0 86.1

We get really pass happy in the 4th quarter. Always have. Schaub usually starts throwing INTs and fumbling because our playcalling becomes obvious.


Where do you get that Kubiak is "fairly obsessed with running the ball"? He's never put an emphasis on drafting running backs. He drafted Steve Slaton in the 3rd round hoping he would be a 3rd down back, basically hoping he could be a good receiving option. He goes after Ahman Green and Chris Brown. His offensive lineman are get smashed in run blocking. You can just look at their body types and can tell that they are all on the team for their pass blocking ability, not their run blocking ability.

Kubiak isn't obsessed with running the ball, he puts 0 emphasis on it. There's 4 years to show you that Kubiak won't be determined to fix the running game.

I think he's obsessed with running the ball and not at all obsessed with running backs. I think if Moats could pass protect even a little bit he'd be getting the majority of the carries because he's been the most effective.

I think that's the nature of his background in Denver and I don't expect that to change.

Second Honeymoon
12-15-2009, 01:44 PM
congratulations!

thanks to everyone for the good words. very classy.

she is only 6 days old and has already watched MNF with her dad. she thought Warner stunk it up..

...but I think it was her diaper.

Second Honeymoon
12-15-2009, 01:51 PM
as for Kubiak, you gotta call Cowher, Schotty, Gruden, and Holmgren to see if any of those guys are interested. I want Kubiak gone and have since last year but not so we can hire another unproven flatliner with no winning experience and no HC cred. If those elite 4 guys aren't interested and no intriguing dark horses appear (insert Jimmy Johnson here), then you let Kubiak play out the last year of his contract HOWEVER if you go that route, you have to make a serious splash in the Free Agent market in order to eliminate some of the excuses people have for Kubiak's littany of failures. We need to make a splash and show that our franchise is committed to winning...NOW!!

we had a chance to make a statement last year if we would have signed Haynesworth out from under the Titans but we didn't. He would have given us the 4-3 DT we need and the mean streak that we needed. This year we need to target one of the elite UFAs and get him in Houston. It's gonna be tough this year due to the team's extra RFA tags and uncapped space, but we owe it to ourselves (and Kubiak) to put our team in the best position possible.

If we cant find a UFA, we should try and make a trade for someone we think can come in and make an impact next year, preferably a veteran and not an early draft pick.

Oh and can we please cut Dunta and for that matter, maybe Jacoby too. We need to send a message that losers and unprofessional self-centered losers aren't welcomed here. I like Jacoby's passion but he does too many stupid things. As for Dunta, he just sucks and he needs to go away. he let everyone down, including himself.

Texan_Bill
12-15-2009, 02:23 PM
...have a good excuse though...we were blessed with a brand new baby girl Wednesday and its a little hectic

Chelsea Lee Van Horne 12/09 9:09 AM


Holy cow man, I'm sorry I missed this. Congrats SH!!

HoustonFrog
12-15-2009, 02:25 PM
Holy cow man, I'm sorry I missed this. Congrats SH!!

Congrats myself!!Enjoy the time and stop worrying about Kubes Fan Boys.

mussop
12-15-2009, 03:03 PM
We have much better QB play! and, that's making up for our pathetic rushing offense...

One of my worries with changing coaching staffs is the possible regression... or, at least the impeding of Schaub's progression to becoming a near elite level QB. He has made vast improvements this season and looks like he's really starting to take over as commander of that offense. His body language, possible audibling, etc... in the Seattle game were good signs, I thought.

HC - Cowher
DC - Ron Rivera or Dick Lebeau
OC - Charlie Weis

How would this be for starters?

JB
12-15-2009, 03:05 PM
HC - Cowher
DC - Ron Rivera or Dick Lebeau
OC - Charlie Weis

How would this be for starters?

Could we keep Kubes as OC?

Mr. White
12-15-2009, 03:14 PM
Could we keep Kubes as OC?

If we can get Capers for DC.

Second Honeymoon
12-15-2009, 03:26 PM
If we can get Capers for DC.

he has done wonders. carr got him fired. dom did a pretty good job except he wasn't willing to call Casserley out as a horrible GM and to call Carr out as a horrible and pathetic QB. Those guys killed him and he was one of the few things we had going back then.

he was a bit too conservative for me offensively, but look what the guy had to work with...utter garbage

Goldensilence
12-15-2009, 03:40 PM
he has done wonders. carr got him fired. dom did a pretty good job except he wasn't willing to call Casserley out as a horrible GM and to call Carr out as a horrible and pathetic QB. Those guys killed him and he was one of the few things we had going back then.

he was a bit too conservative for me offensively, but look what the guy had to work with...utter garbage

I think with Capers you have the chicken and the egg argument. Was Casserly really just that damn awful or was he trying to make moves for what his HC asked for?

What killed Capers was sticking with coordinators and position coaches who shouldn't have been there. (Sound Familiar?) I also question the role that McNair played in drafting Carr and keeping him around.


HC - Cowher
DC - Ron Rivera or Dick Lebeau
OC - Charlie Weis

How would this be for starters?

Cowher is an outside shot, and I have mixed feelings about Weis. But that doesn't sound like a bad lineup.

Instead of Ron Rivera, who I don't think would leave for anything less then a HC position or LeBeau, who is going to be hard to pry away from Pittsburgh. I think we should give a look for Wade Phillips as the DC. Nah not a HC, but he built the Chargers D.

I don't think having Kubiak stick around as an OC would be a good idea in any scenario other then Shannahan coming here. Even then I think that'd make for a dicey situation.

ObsiWan
12-17-2009, 05:45 PM
tons and tons including mine...

...have a good excuse though...we were blessed with a brand new baby girl Wednesday and its a little hectic

Chelsea Lee Van Horne 12/09 9:09 AM

as for the 4 tickets...i couldnt even find anyone who wanted to go in my place

Congratulations!!!
(where's the cigar smiley?)

Texan_Bill
12-17-2009, 06:05 PM
I think with Capers you have the chicken and the egg argument. Was Casserly really just that damn awful or was he trying to make moves for what his HC asked for?

I put it on Casserly and here's why:

Capers had been successful as a "D" coordinator on some pretty good teams. He had success with another expansion team as a HC.

Casserly on the other hand was handed a team that Bobby Beathard had built as GM before moving on to San Diego (IIRC).


I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, it's just a stab at it - IMO..

Double Barrel
12-17-2009, 06:37 PM
Our defense was actually pretty decent under Capers, much like our offense is good under Kubiak.

Head coaches, however, need to be big picture kind of guys. Neither of these assistance coaches have impressed me in that regard. JMO

ObsiWan
12-17-2009, 06:50 PM
If you think this team doesn't have enough talent to be a playoff team it makes me wonder if you watch other teams at all. Every team has flaws. Nobody is loaded at all positions. You don't have to have a dozen all pros to make the playoffs.


Before this season started, there were at least three positions we were all screaming - well a lot of us - that needed upgrading by draft or F/A.

1. Space-eating DT - The guys we have try hard but they ain't nothing close to Fat Albert or Williams Bros. quality.
2. Shutdown CB - few were convinced that Jacque Reeves was a anything more than a good #3 CB and most had lost faith that Fred Bennett would repeat the solid play of his rookie year. Everyone was pissed at Dunta and had no faith that he'd do any good after missing all of T/C.
3. Play-making FS - Eugene Wilson was okay. But just "okay". Busing made a few plays early on but was just as likely to give up six by being in the wrong place. We need upgrades. Oh and those of us who thought Sharper was too old to pick up are eating deep-fried crow right about now. What difference he's made to the Saints' back end.

I could add the need for a #2 RB or a better center or a solid set of guards. Few of us were happy with who we came out of T/C and preseason at those positions.
I never said we needed All-Pros at every position. You're right, nobody has that.

Let me put it to you guys this way:
"Elite" teams are solid everywhere. They're excellent in some places and real good most other places; but they're solid EVERYWHERE.

We are not. That's all I'm saying.
When you ask your O-line to push for a yard against the AZ Cards (not the Steelers or Ravens but the frikin' Cards) or the Jags (who rebuilt their D-line this year) and they can't get it... We need upgrades.

Double Barrel
12-17-2009, 06:54 PM
"Elite" teams are built by good decisions. The Colts did not have any player drafted above the third round on defense when they made a comeback and stopped our HIGHLY RATED offense in it's tracks.

Those good decisions - the ones that build "elite" teams - are made by the coaching staff.

Just sayin'... :howdy: it's more than gameday decisions!

Kaiser Toro
12-17-2009, 07:05 PM
Texans fans should all be united in a Colts victory this evening. We can return to our eloquent soliloquies later this evening. :kitten:

infantrycak
12-17-2009, 08:14 PM
Our defense was actually pretty decent under Capers, much like our offense is good under Kubiak.

The D was decent only in comparison to the O under Capers. Our league rankings were 16, 31, 23, 31 on D under Capers and that was with the benefit of some pretty serious vet talent in Sharper, Walker, Payne, Glenn, Coleman and Wong. Kubiak's D's have actually ranked higher at 24, 24, 22 13. Then on O Capers managed 32, 31, 19, 31 compared to 28 (HWWNBN), 14,3,8. Now that I look at it we were 31st in both O and D twice under Capers. Of course there is no doubt the Capers O put a tremendous amount of pressure on the D. That would be five of eight units ranked in the 30's for Capers and thankfully none under Kubiak.

Shudders and walks away.

Lucky
12-17-2009, 10:06 PM
If you think this team doesn't have enough talent to be a playoff team it makes me wonder if you watch other teams at all. Every team has flaws. Nobody is loaded at all positions. You don't have to have a dozen all pros to make the playoffs.
Some fans think the Texans require a Pro Bowl roster to compete. An experienced Pro Bowl roster. Maybe they're right. I think Kubiak could go 10-6 with a Pro Bowl roster.

Lucky
12-17-2009, 10:11 PM
Capers had been successful as a "D" coordinator on some pretty good teams. He had success with another expansion team as a HC.
Capers was another example of a very good coordinator, horrible head coach. His success with the Panthers was based upon a veteran defense constructed with free agent $$$. The Texans operated under much different expansion rules than the Panthers and did not have the salary cap $cash to chase free agents like Lamar Lathon & Kevin Greene. Once that talent grew older, Capers was exposed as a one trick pony.

TheRealJoker
12-17-2009, 10:13 PM
he has done wonders. carr got him fired. dom did a pretty good job except he wasn't willing to call Casserley out as a horrible GM and to call Carr out as a horrible and pathetic QB. Those guys killed him and he was one of the few things we had going back then.

he was a bit too conservative for me offensively, but look what the guy had to work with...utter garbage

I have to admit, I am thoroughly entertained by your recollection of the Capers/Casserly/Carr era. You never forget to point out that Carr was a pathetic loser lol.

Runner
12-18-2009, 12:55 AM
Texans fans should all be united in a Colts victory this evening. We can return to our eloquent soliloquies later this evening. :kitten:

You got it. Fun game to watch.

======================

Eloquent soliloquy:

The Jags are a couple of coulda woulda shouldas from from being 2-0 against the Colts. I guess all teams have those plays... :)

Double Barrel
12-18-2009, 11:19 AM
The D was decent only in comparison to the O under Capers. Our league rankings were 16, 31, 23, 31 on D under Capers and that was with the benefit of some pretty serious vet talent in Sharper, Walker, Payne, Glenn, Coleman and Wong. Kubiak's D's have actually ranked higher at 24, 24, 22 13. Then on O Capers managed 32, 31, 19, 31 compared to 28 (HWWNBN), 14,3,8. Now that I look at it we were 31st in both O and D twice under Capers. Of course there is no doubt the Capers O put a tremendous amount of pressure on the D. That would be five of eight units ranked in the 30's for Capers and thankfully none under Kubiak.

Shudders and walks away.

Interesting...I was going off fuzzy memory, so for some reason I thought the D was ranked higher than that. I remember that infamous Steelers game...just checked and saw that was our inaugural season...yay...by no means am I defending Capers (any HC with a 2-14 season cannot be defended).

However, I suppose what could be construed is that Capers did more with less while Kubiak does less with more? Rankings aside, scoreboard? :thinking:

HJam72
12-18-2009, 04:24 PM
I'm sure the Texans could've gotten Lathon and Greene at some point. :)

Kubiak will probably bring them in next year. :roast:

Texecutioner
12-18-2009, 05:32 PM
Before this season started, there were at least three positions we were all screaming - well a lot of us - that needed upgrading by draft or F/A.

1. Space-eating DT - The guys we have try hard but they ain't nothing close to Fat Albert or Williams Bros. quality.
2. Shutdown CB - few were convinced that Jacque Reeves was a anything more than a good #3 CB and most had lost faith that Fred Bennett would repeat the solid play of his rookie year. Everyone was pissed at Dunta and had no faith that he'd do any good after missing all of T/C.
3. Play-making FS - Eugene Wilson was okay. But just "okay". Busing made a few plays early on but was just as likely to give up six by being in the wrong place. We need upgrades. Oh and those of us who thought Sharper was too old to pick up are eating deep-fried crow right about now. What difference he's made to the Saints' back end.

I could add the need for a #2 RB or a better center or a solid set of guards. Few of us were happy with who we came out of T/C and preseason at those positions.
I never said we needed All-Pros at every position. You're right, nobody has that.

Let me put it to you guys this way:
"Elite" teams are solid everywhere. They're excellent in some places and real good most other places; but they're solid EVERYWHERE.

We are not. That's all I'm saying.
When you ask your O-line to push for a yard against the AZ Cards (not the Steelers or Ravens but the frikin' Cards) or the Jags (who rebuilt their D-line this year) and they can't get it... We need upgrades.


This current Texans team this year had just about as much talent as the Cardinals did last season honestly. THe Cardinals had quite a few holes on that team as well. Probably about the same amount of holes that we've had this year as well.

ObsiWan
12-18-2009, 05:35 PM
Some fans think the Texans require a Pro Bowl roster to compete. An experienced Pro Bowl roster. Maybe they're right. I think Kubiak could go 10-6 with a Pro Bowl roster.

I brought this up so I'll address it again.

I'm not saying we need All-Madden players at every position. I'm reminding folks of the bitching that was on-going during the draft and T/C.

Remember those needs?
- More beef in the D-Line - few thought Okoye was working out as advertised. Several posts regarding the need for a "space-eating" DT.
- A stud pass rusher to help Mario - Not everyone was impressed with the Antonio Smith signing. Some wanted to trade for Orakpo.
- A solid #2 RB to go with Slaton. Most thought Chris Brown would be on IR by mid-season; some thought he'd be gone by the end of preseason.
- A Myers replacement unit. We were hoping Caldwell was the answer, but since The Angry Cherokee didn't start him, apparently he wasn't ready.
- An improvement at RG. Most wanted Brisiel replaced. Then things got worse at LG when Pitts went down in what, week 2/3? We've been trying to root out people with Myers and a pair of 2nd string guards. I guess I should be impressed that we've only given up 23 sacks.
- The there's the secondary. Some thought we should draft a play-making FS with some range (what rd did that Byrd kid in Buffalo go in?). Maybe they were right. Some considered picking up Sharper but were shouted down. Don't hear them shouts no more. Is there anyone here who, coming out of preseason, didn't think that would be the weakest part of our defense? We basically lucked into a stud at SS because he was unhappy in KC.

All I'm saying is, those were weaknesses we had spotted and voiced coming out of training camp and preseason.
Those weaknesses are still there. The better teams exposed them.
We need more pieces.

DexmanC
12-18-2009, 06:40 PM
They just need a coach to get this team to do the little things right. This
team has enough talent to win much more than it does. Four years into
Kubiak, and this squad STILL has NO IDENTITY. They've been running
in place for the longest time. 8-8, 8-8, 8-8, 9-7 *at most.

Mr. White
12-18-2009, 08:53 PM
Remember those needs?
- More beef in the D-Line - few thought Okoye was working out as advertised. Several posts regarding the need for a "space-eating" DT.

I don't think we can ever expect to see a space eater at DT because that kind of guy doesn't fit the defensive philosophy here. You'd think one would have turned up these 4 years under Kubiak if that's the kind of guy they wanted.

Kubiak wants his guys to play sideline to sideline.


- A Myers replacement unit. We were hoping Caldwell was the answer, but since The Angry Cherokee didn't start him, apparently he wasn't ready.
- An improvement at RG. Most wanted Brisiel replaced. Then things got worse at LG when Pitts went down in what, week 2/3? We've been trying to root out people with Myers and a pair of 2nd string guards. I guess I should be impressed that we've only given up 23 sacks.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but here goes....

This makes me wonder if we could fix Center and Guard with one fell swoop by moving Myers to G. I've heard that he's taller than your prototype Center.