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View Full Version : Andre Johnson wants Kubiak to stay


Texans_Chick
12-09-2009, 08:54 PM
Video from Chron.com (http://www.chron.com/common/special/07/templates/lineuppop.html?mcVideo=958498245)

Can't imagine he'd say anything different but in sum he says, hey I remember how it was, and how much different it is now. Also says that the coaches have good game plans but the players have to play.

I'm guessing he doesn't want to learn a bunch of new offensive terminology or get a non-pass friendly coach.

Corrosion
12-09-2009, 08:57 PM
Video from Chron.com (http://www.chron.com/common/special/07/templates/lineuppop.html?mcVideo=958498245)

Can't imagine he'd say anything different but in sum he says, hey I remember how it was, and how much different it is now. Also says that the coaches have good game plans but the players have to play.

I'm guessing he doesn't want to learn a bunch of new offensive terminology or get a non-pass friendly coach.

Or maybe he's telling it like it is.

TexCanada
12-09-2009, 09:00 PM
What else would he say? Kubiak is still his coach whether he likes it or not. I don't think I would read too far into this.

mussop
12-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Or maybe he's telling it like it is.

Or more likely he doesnt want to be the one to rock the boat.

gtexan02
12-09-2009, 09:01 PM
He's having a probowl year, is in the midst of back to back 1000 yard seasons, is regarded as the best WR in the game, and generally having a productive career.
Why would he want Kubiak to leave?

Thorn
12-09-2009, 09:04 PM
Whatever he thinks, I don't think it's his nature to criticize the coaches.

Texans_Chick
12-09-2009, 09:04 PM
Or maybe he's telling it like it is.

No, I definitely think that he is telling it like it is.

He also mentions in response to a question that he doesn't believe Kubiak has lost the lockerroom at all.

I can't remember if it was Kubiak or AJ who told the story about how when Kubiak first came on board, he asked AJ if he wanted to catch 120 balls a year, and how excited AJ was to hear that kind of talk.

I'm just thinking that Johnson doesn't want to go through learning another system, especially one that might not be as friendly to his position as the current one.

Corrosion
12-09-2009, 09:12 PM
What I get from it is he realizes that the staff has put them in position to win most of these games - Jacksonville not so much - Had the players MADE A PLAY be it offense , defense or special teams - they make a play here or there and they win - they dont ..... its on the players.

TheRealJoker
12-09-2009, 09:17 PM
AJ isn't a guy to ruffle feathers.

Lets see what Dunta thinks, not that he has the right to comment or anything... :)

Texans_Chick
12-09-2009, 09:19 PM
Typically, I do not like watching many of the Chron.com videos, but I think this one is worth watching.

Corrosion
12-09-2009, 09:27 PM
AJ isn't a guy to ruffle feathers.

Lets see what Dunta thinks, not that he has the right to comment or anything... :)

Dunta just wants to get paid more than he's worth , dont think it matters who writes the check.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 09:30 PM
he isn't going to come out and openly root for change up top...I've rarely seen that done in this league. You have to get pretty awful to have the players call for the coaches head.

houstonspartan
12-09-2009, 09:30 PM
No, I definitely think that he is telling it like it is.

He also mentions in response to a question that he doesn't believe Kubiak has lost the lockerroom at all.

I can't remember if it was Kubiak or AJ who told the story about how when Kubiak first came on board, he asked AJ if he wanted to catch 120 balls a year, and how excited AJ was to hear that kind of talk.

I'm just thinking that Johnson doesn't want to go through learning another system, especially one that might not be as friendly to his position as the current one.


Come on. Kubiak hardly uses Johnson as much as he should. Everybody knows that.

And, AJ is such a special player, that any coach would DESIGN a system AROUND him. So it's not a matter of him having to learn another system.

False Start
12-09-2009, 09:36 PM
Its hard to read Dre because he never changes his tone, so I dont know what to think. :thinking:

eriadoc
12-09-2009, 09:48 PM
Saying he wouldn't come out and support a coaching change is kind of a worthless statement, IMO. He doesn't have to say anything at all, either way. The fact that he's offered up this much is because he wanted to. The reporters ask the questions, but he's dodged plenty of them over the years. If he wants to say something, he says it in his AJ way. If he doesn't want to say anything, he doesn't. The guy can be the most boring interview ever, when he wants to. Which is one of the reasons I dig the guy. He just keeps his mouth closed and kicks ass.

But I guess when he does bother to say anything that doesn't jibe with fan sentiment, the fans just brush it off. OK, cool.

Buffi2
12-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Wow! Has losing turned us all into cynics? Now, I can rock with the firing/keeping Kubiak opinions, the anger at everything Texan from water boys to owners, the heartbreak over yet another season that sucks, and even not wanting to think about going to another meaningless football game - but, honestly folks, if AJ actually speaks, perhaps we should give the poor guy the benefit of the doubt. He isn't the most verbal of folks and if he actually makes an effort to open his mouth, just maybe he means what he says. I would be more suspect of anything Dunta said. I can't remember AJ ever coming out and spouting untruths or selfishly motivated verbiage - why now?

Cut him some slack here.

mussop
12-09-2009, 09:52 PM
What I get from it is he realizes that the staff has put them in position to win most of these games - Jacksonville not so much - Had the players MADE A PLAY be it offense , defense or special teams - they make a play here or there and they win - they dont ..... its on the players.

Then your getting from it what you WANT to get from it. Every year Kubiak has been here the talent has improved from the year before yet the result is the same in wins and losses, inconsistant play and poor coaching. To ignore this is to accept mediocrity.

DexmanC
12-09-2009, 09:53 PM
The best things they can do to keep Kubes from getting fired:

1. Catch the damn touchdown when it's in your hands.
2. Get in the film room, and gain some situational awareness.
3. Don't false start on 4th down, or any attempt to gain a big 1st down.
4. Wrap up when you tackle
5. Catch the damn interception when it hits you in your hands.
6. Make the damn cut block. Stop flailing on the ground like fish outta water.
7. Don't throw the ball into quintuple coverage when you need a touchown.
8. Tell ya coach it ain't cool calling a "QB Laydown" at the 40 yardline on MNF.
9. Show up to meetings on time!
10. If you play tightend on this team, don't fall down immediately after catch!

They do that, and Kubiak won't be fired.

SAMURAITEXAN
12-09-2009, 09:57 PM
I think if AJ wanted HC changed than he won't metion to media. AJ is just telling like it is IMO.

Go Texans!!!

mussop
12-09-2009, 10:01 PM
Wow! Has losing turned us all into cynics? Now, I can rock with the firing/keeping Kubiak opinions, the anger at everything Texan from water boys to owners, the heartbreak over yet another season that sucks, and even not wanting to think about going to another meaningless football game - but, honestly folks, if AJ actually speaks, perhaps we should give the poor guy the benefit of the doubt. He isn't the most verbal of folks and if he actually makes an effort to open his mouth, just maybe he means what he says. I would be more suspect of anything Dunta said. I can't remember AJ ever coming out and spouting untruths or selfishly motivated verbiage - why now?

Cut him some slack here.

No one is suggesting anything negative about Johnson, simply that it is against his nature to make anything other than positive statements. Honestly have you ever heard him say anything even remotely negative? Did he have anything negative to say about Capers even after it was obvious even to the most oblivious koolaid drinking fans that it was time for him to go?

eriadoc
12-09-2009, 10:01 PM
You know, it's possible (crazy, I know, but possible) that we message board fans simply have an opinion that differs from Andre Johnson's.

I haven't changed my avatar.

Corrosion
12-09-2009, 10:03 PM
Saying he wouldn't come out and support a coaching change is kind of a worthless statement, IMO. He doesn't have to say anything at all, either way. The fact that he's offered up this much is because he wanted to. The reporters ask the questions, but he's dodged plenty of them over the years. If he wants to say something, he says it in his AJ way. If he doesn't want to say anything, he doesn't. The guy can be the most boring interview ever, when he wants to. Which is one of the reasons I dig the guy. He just keeps his mouth closed and kicks ass.

But I guess when he does bother to say anything that doesn't jibe with fan sentiment, the fans just brush it off. OK, cool.

Much like the incremental death post .... spot on.

Mr. White
12-09-2009, 10:10 PM
Wow! Has losing turned us all into cynics?

I was a cynic before we even had a team.

Hell, I'm so cynical, I'm still surprised that we have a team.

Silver Oak
12-09-2009, 10:11 PM
thank you AJ! now if we can just get some of the Pink Soaper's to listen to ya.

Buffi2
12-09-2009, 10:20 PM
No one is suggesting anything negative about Johnson, simply that it is against his nature to make anything other than positive statements. Honestly have you ever heard him say anything even remotely negative? Did he have anything negative to say about Capers even after it was obvious even to the most oblivious koolaid drinking fans that it was time for him to go?

Actually, no, I don't remember him saying anything about Capers. But if it happened sooner than 20 years ago, it is highly possible I wouldn't remember. My memory is about as good as our O line.

If, in fact, he didn't say anything good about Capers, that says a lot right there.

J_R
12-09-2009, 10:24 PM
Well Andre Johnson was just shown at the Rockets game and was wearing a NYY hat. I think he wants to go to NY. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, I wont read too much into this.

ATXtexanfan
12-09-2009, 10:24 PM
If andre wants him to stay, fine with me.

HoustonFrog
12-09-2009, 10:25 PM
You know, it's possible (crazy, I know, but possible) that we message board fans simply have an opinion that differs from Andre Johnson's.

I haven't changed my avatar.

Right. Players support coaches no matter what. They read things and hear things. They don't want the team to quit. Whenever a coach gets fired you hear players say " I feel bad, we didn't perform for him." I'm about to give up here. It is like people forgot Carr and the last regime and the same talk and are accepting mediocre. "As long as it wasn't as bad as the last guy."

Seriously, what are player supposed to say...."you know what, we have quit. We aren't in a position to win every week. It sucks. I wouldn't be surprised if we lay down." Just read what he said when the questions were directed after the game. True reactions. JMO.

After all he also said "We just run what they call" and

“I've been through it before,” receiver Andre Johnson said. “This is my second head coach. It is what it is.”

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6756697.html

Mr. White
12-09-2009, 10:32 PM
The last time I heard a player slam a coach was when Shockey was playing for Coughlin that year they won the Super Bowl.

I remember Shockey saying they got outcoached in one of their losses.

We all know how well that turned out for him.

mussop
12-09-2009, 10:34 PM
thank you AJ! now if we can just get some of the Pink Soaper's to listen to ya.

We need a little grasping at straws emotocon. Sad!

thunderkyss
12-09-2009, 10:44 PM
he isn't going to come out and openly root for change up top...I've rarely seen that done in this league. You have to get pretty awful to have the players call for the coaches head.

I agree, however he straight up says that the coach gives them good game plans.. & you can't blame the coach for their mistakes.

Andre puts it on the players.... that's not what they say when they're trying not to say the wrong thing.

McNair is also saying it's on the players. Not laying blame or anything like that, but saying it's time for the players to step up, & become winners.

It's the same thing that's been said on this board about leadership, & the lack of it on the field.

AnthonyE
12-09-2009, 10:52 PM
Video from Chron.com (http://www.chron.com/common/special/07/templates/lineuppop.html?mcVideo=958498245)

Can't imagine he'd say anything different but in sum he says, hey I remember how it was, and how much different it is now. Also says that the coaches have good game plans but the players have to play.

I'm guessing he doesn't want to learn a bunch of new offensive terminology or get a non-pass friendly coach.

FWIW, he said the same thing about David Carr.

HoustonFrog
12-09-2009, 11:36 PM
I agree, however he straight up says that the coach gives them good game plans.. & you can't blame the coach for their mistakes.

Andre puts it on the players.... that's not what they say when they're trying not to say the wrong thing.

McNair is also saying it's on the players. Not laying blame or anything like that, but saying it's time for the players to step up, & become winners.

It's the same thing that's been said on this board about leadership, & the lack of it on the field.

Again, what are the supposed to say with 4 games left?

So we believe AJ but don't believe Kubes. Because Kubes has told us for 2 years that he doesn't get the player prepared and it is "on him" when they call bad plays or put the team in a position not to suceed.

I'm confused, is Kubes at fault, that is what he says, or the players, that is what AJ says. I always start at the top because players perform when leaders teach and correct mistakes.

Hervoyel
12-10-2009, 12:14 AM
I'll take him at his word and I'm not interested in speculating on what his motivation may be. "AJ wants Kubiak back" is what it is.

Kubiak's coming back no matter what happens the rest of this season. McNair wants to believe in people. He wanted to believe in David Carr. He wanted to believe in Dom Capers. He really, really wants to believe in Gary Kubiak. AJ saying this is probably going to be all he needs to hear. He'll look at the injuries, talk to Gary and Rick, maybe read a few McClain articles and pick up a phone and call Bum to get his opinion. Then he'll bring Gary back because "change is disruptive" and "he gives us the best chance to win right away". Bob doesn't know any better and with Daniels & Slaton going on IR and AJ saying he wants Gary to stay Bob will do what he's already more or less inclined to do. He'll play it slow and cautious.

I hope he's right. If he's wrong the backlash will be catagory 5.

GuerillaBlack
12-10-2009, 12:30 AM
The last time I heard a player slam a coach was when Shockey was playing for Coughlin that year they won the Super Bowl.

I remember Shockey saying they got outcoached in one of their losses.

We all know how well that turned out for him.

Yeah, but Shockey got a ring and is on the 12-0 Saints right now. ;)

IlliniJen
12-10-2009, 12:38 AM
thank you AJ! now if we can just get some of the Pink Soaper's to listen to ya.

Someone needs to create a big fluffy "everything's fine" group hug avatar for Silver.

I think the pink soap gang has become his new "democrat."

houstonspartan
12-10-2009, 12:49 AM
I'll take him at his word and I'm not interested in speculating on what his motivation may be. "AJ wants Kubiak back" is what it is.

Kubiak's coming back no matter what happens the rest of this season. McNair wants to believe in people. He wanted to believe in David Carr. He wanted to believe in Dom Capers. He really, really wants to believe in Gary Kubiak. AJ saying this is probably going to be all he needs to hear. He'll look at the injuries, talk to Gary and Rick, maybe read a few McClain articles and pick up a phone and call Bum to get his opinion. Then he'll bring Gary back because "change is disruptive" and "he gives us the best chance to win right away". Bob doesn't know any better and with Daniels & Slaton going on IR and AJ saying he wants Gary to stay Bob will do what he's already more or less inclined to do. He'll play it slow and cautious.

I hope he's right. If he's wrong the backlash will be catagory 5.

Is there a higher category than this? There should be.

If he brings Kubiak back and the team starts slow next year, there will serious hell to pay. If that happens McNair may want to consider just calling it a day, because fans will burn Reliant stadium to the *******ing ground.

As I told someone yesterday, my concern before this season was that everyone had high expectations for the team, and the team generally can't handle pressure.

If they bring Kubiak back, can you imagine the pressure they will be under next year? Holy shit, batman.

If Kubiak returns, McNair should make him appoint a strong assistant head coach, because if we start off slow McNair will have no choice but to fire Kubes during the season.

I'm serious.

Carr Bombed
12-10-2009, 01:09 AM
Let's be honest here...

The only NFL head coaches Andre has ever known is Dom Capers and Gary Kubiak, does he really even know what it takes to win in this league from that position? I mean compared to Dom, Gary probably does seem like Bill Walsh. I love Andre, but Dre and any other player on this roster doesn't hold too much credibility when it comes to "winning coaches" at this level. Let's face it......how many of our players have actually played for a winning coach in the NFL? How many of our CORE players have played for a winning NFL coach to even draw a comparison from.

Another thing I have noticed is how the players always talk about how soft their work week is and how "coach keeps them fresh". I mean, what player wouldn't LOVE to work for a guy who ran lax camps and practices, but that might not be the best thing as far as "winning goes". Also that shouldn't even be a argument to keep this guy, because apparently having "fresh players" isn't working. They come out and don't look ready to play full speed alot of weeks (especially at the start of the season) and apparently "keeping them fresh" also isn't keeping them off the IR sheet...so really what benefits are they truly getting from it.?

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 01:25 AM
I used to wonder why the Eagles always had a top defense to go with
its high-powered offense. Then, I read that Andy Reed's training camps
have "live rounds" thrown in. That is, he has short periods of full pads
and full speed hitting. When the regular season starts, your team has
to be able to play full speed. The last two seasons, it always seemed
the Texans came out to "practice speed," and the opponent (Jets and Steelers)
came out to GAME speed.

It has taken this team 3 or 4 weeks to start playing to the level of the rest
of the NFL. What good is being "fresh" in December, when you're ALREADY
out of the playoff hunt? Why can the Dolphins, Colts, and Jags lose a ton
of starters on both sides of the ball and be effective, and our squad uses
it as it's crutch to remain 8-8?

This team really feels no shame for the lack of discipline in "big stage"
situations. It's always: "We'll look at the tape, put it behind us, and
get ready for next week." These "kids" need to grow up and become MEN.

Lucky
12-10-2009, 01:39 AM
Can't imagine he'd say anything different...
I can't either. Andre is not the type of guy to throw a coach or a teammate under the bus.

He also mentions in response to a question that he doesn't believe Kubiak has lost the lockerroom at all.
Again, what could he say in response? Kubiak is still the coach.

I'm sure Johnson believes that Kubiak has helped his game. I'm also sure that AJ would be excited if a new coach came in and said, "Andre, how'd you like to go to the playoffs?"

At this point, testimonials from players (even great players like Andre Johnson) are worthless. Their performance under Kubiak speaks volumes as to his worthiness as a head coach. After 4 seasons, Kubiak has proven that he cannot get it done. Maybe the players he has hand picked and coached up can't get it done, as well? It's time to bring in someone else and see if that's true.

beerlover
12-10-2009, 06:13 AM
A ringing endorsement from the franchise best player is not such a bad thing for Kubiak moving forward. Might just be the subtle change in winds that gets the Texans turned around :spin:

ps. I would be playing Andre this weekend for all you fantasy nobs :gamer:

LonerATO
12-10-2009, 06:37 AM
A ringing endorsement from the franchise best player is not such a bad thing for Kubiak moving forward. Might just be the subtle change in winds that gets the Texans turned around :spin:

ps. I would be playing Andre this weekend for all you fantasy nobs :gamer:

Been playing the guy all year in 2 leagues and I miss his unreal numbers from the past

Runner
12-10-2009, 07:30 AM
I have found that players' quotes seem true when they agree with the listener's opinion and ring hollow when they don't. This goes for me as well as what I've observed in others.

In general, I don't put to much stock in what players say to the press. I know what they say in private is often much different then what they say in public. It does players little good to be completely honest to the media on controversial subjects.

Texans_Chick
12-10-2009, 07:56 AM
What I find interesting is that when I talk to players individually, they rarely out and out lie, but they tend to be less enthusiastic about coaches they don't like. Very much the Texan way.

I could never get a player to ever be enthusiastic about Richard Smith or Jon Hoke. Ever. The most positive thing I could get about Hoke was a statement that "he crazy."

On the subject of Kubiak, players will often go out of there way to praise him. I won't bring him up in conversation, and it is the players who talk about how much they like, respect and have confidence in him.

If you talk to Eric Winston about Kubiak things, he couldn't be any more enthusiastic, and he comes across like someone who wants to punch every Kubiak critic in the face. (though he never said such a thing--it's just he gets very enthusiastic about the subject).

I guess some people will say that I'm hearing what I want to hear or whatever. But I do think that my view of Kubiak is "tainted" by the effusive praise I've heard from his players.

FWIW.

Thorn
12-10-2009, 08:00 AM
What I find interesting is that when I talk to players individually, they rarely out and out lie, but they tend to be less enthusiastic about coaches they don't like. Very much the Texan way.

I could never get a player to ever be enthusiastic about Richard Smith or Jon Hoke. Ever. The most positive thing I could get about Hoke was a statement that "he crazy."

On the subject of Kubiak, players will often go out of there way to praise him. I won't bring him up in conversation, and it is the players who talk about how much they like, respect and have confidence in him.

If you talk to Eric Winston about Kubiak things, he couldn't be any more enthusiastic, and he comes across like someone who wants to punch every Kubiak critic in the face. (though he never said such a thing--it's just he gets very enthusiastic about the subject).

I guess some people will say that I'm hearing what I want to hear or whatever. But I do think that my view of Kubiak is "tainted" by the effusive praise I've heard from his players.

FWIW.

One of these years I'd like to see a Houston team win a super bowl. I've been wanting that for over fourty years now. If Kubes does it, fine, if it's someone else, fine, I just want the damn super bowl.

jerek
12-10-2009, 08:09 AM
I know I'm in the growing minority here, but I actually like Kubiak for the most part. Whether AJ's 100% sincere or not I don't know, but what he said is absolutely true of late - players need to make plays.

We are two shanked field goals and two late goal line fumbles away from potentially being 9-3. A couple of bad calls go against us on key drives, we commit a couple of brain dead penalties and that's the nail in 2009's playoff coffin.

To quote Al Pacino, football is a game of inches and we have played some great football this year, but players haven't made plays when we needed them most. There are a handful of busted plays between us and the playoffs. We're not the St. Louis Rams and this isn't Dom Capers and the slant route.

I do believe Kubiak has for the vast majority of his time put this team in a position to win. Even the Chris Brown halfback pass - okay, maybe not a high percentage call any way you look at it - but had he completed that a lot of us around here would be hailing his guts to go for that play. And Chris Brown threw a $h!tty pass - so again, are players going to make plays? Tuck it and run out of bounds.

Silver Oak
12-10-2009, 09:03 AM
Someone needs to create a big fluffy "everything's fine" group hug avatar for Silver.

I think the pink soap gang has become his new "democrat."

LOL! You are funny....sick and twisted, but funny.

Runner
12-10-2009, 09:48 AM
What I find interesting is that when I talk to players individually, they rarely out and out lie, but they tend to be less enthusiastic about coaches they don't like. Very much the Texan way.

I could never get a player to ever be enthusiastic about Richard Smith or Jon Hoke. Ever. The most positive thing I could get about Hoke was a statement that "he crazy."

On the subject of Kubiak, players will often go out of there way to praise him. I won't bring him up in conversation, and it is the players who talk about how much they like, respect and have confidence in him.


I would give much more weight to this type of feedback from players than what they say directly to the cameras.

For the most part the players and coaches are careful in what they say "for the record". That is why the interviews become so predictable and boring.

Texans_Chick
12-10-2009, 10:10 AM
I would give much more weight to this type of feedback from players than what they say directly to the cameras.

For the most part the players and coaches are careful in what they say "for the record". That is why the interviews become so predictable and boring.

I totally agree. Yes yes and yes.

On one hand, we as fans want players to say interesting things and tell us the real skinny on stuff.

On the other hand, when players say what they believe (Matt Schaub believing that real fans support their teams in good times and in bad), then people flip out.

It means that answers tend not to be answers.

Or, to paraphrase, we can't handle the truth:

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/weather/hurricane/blog/nicholson-thumb.jpg

GP
12-10-2009, 10:20 AM
Thoughts:

1. In a game earlier this season, we ran the ball a lot (and AJ wasn't thrown to very much). We won the game, and there was a quote after the game. IIRC, AJ said that Gurry Kubiak came up to him and said "I'm sorry we didn't get the ball to you like we should..." And AJ said he interrupted him and said "As long as we're winning, I don't care how it happens..."

So at some point, I think AJ has got to decided if he wants to risk some of his own stats in order to play for a coach who (a) might not use him as much and (b) incorporate SOUND and EFFECTIVE and CONSISTENTLY SMART gameplans against opponents.

In an indeal world, AJ could have it all. But this isn't an ideal world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

2. The things AJ said, and Matt Schaub said, and one other Texans player said, after the Jags loss, is more of a barometer for me in terms of how they feel about their team and their coach right now.

After another frustrating loss, our big-name players expose their souls due to the intensity of the moment. Sure, time can heal or blunt the wound (the sting of the loss) but it's only natural to try and move on from a bad experience so that you get distance from it yourself.

People are more honest when their guard is down, and also during the heat of the moment. Because you're not thinking, not filtering. You're letting go of all the stuff that was stored up within you for so long.

All time can do is help you regain your balance so that you don't say caustic things. Doesn't mean you're being more truthful. But rather that you're trying to tread carefully around a dangerous topic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

3. I wouldn't be surprised if someone with the Texans conducted a circle-the-wagons meeting with a few people who have made borderline comments.

It's the Texans way. They control that brand (or image, if you will) with strict and swift efficiency.

Like it's been said: They wear rubber gloves, burn their clothes, and leave no trace of their DNA at the scene.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

AJ backtracking on his previous comments is telling, IMO.

Either he is conflicted and doesn't know who he is, hence the dropping of easy passes and the catching of difficult passes (lapse of concentration, and curious inconsistency when you'd think he'd grab certain passes but fails to do so...then hangs his head and goes "zombie" on the team for a few quarters).

Or, he's been asked to strike a more supportive tone.

Or, he really does feel the way he feels.

In any case, the guy is an enigma to me. Is he going to go down as the BEST wide receiver never to have played in a single playoff game? Is he really OK with that right now? Because that's where his career is headed, IMO.

He is Barry Sanders, and we are the Lions at this point.

hollywood_texan
12-10-2009, 10:41 AM
If AJ wants to keep Kubiak, well then, that says a lot IF he stays with the Texans.

Maybe as Houston Texans (owner, organization, coaches, players, and fans), we are more comfortable with hope than achieving.

eriadoc
12-10-2009, 12:11 PM
Let's face it......how many of our <posters> have actually played for a winning coach in the NFL? How many of our CORE <posters> have played for a winning NFL coach to even draw a comparison from.

I think you make some good points here.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 12:31 PM
I do believe Kubiak has for the vast majority of his time put this team in a position to win. Even the Chris Brown halfback pass - okay, maybe not a high percentage call any way you look at it - but had he completed that a lot of us around here would be hailing his guts to go for that play. And Chris Brown threw a $h!tty pass - so again, are players going to make plays? Tuck it and run out of bounds.

Can't this argument be made for many head coaches that get fired? The plays are designed to be successful, so when they are not, it is easy to point at the players and blame them for lack of execution.

The bigger picture with that play is context. We are an inconsistent team, and not one prone to high-risk trick plays. It was first down, but we didn't use our Pro Bowl playmaker? We don't have a running game - STILL - so how is that the players' faults? The blocking scheme and it's failure is on Kubiak's head, because he chose the scheme, the plays, and the players to run it.

Even Dom Capers used the excuse that the players were not executing the plays, which is arguably true from certain perspectives. I feel deja vu when hearing this as a defense of Kubiak.

What I find interesting is that when I talk to players individually, they rarely out and out lie, but they tend to be less enthusiastic about coaches they don't like. Very much the Texan way.

I could never get a player to ever be enthusiastic about Richard Smith or Jon Hoke. Ever. The most positive thing I could get about Hoke was a statement that "he crazy."

On the subject of Kubiak, players will often go out of there way to praise him. I won't bring him up in conversation, and it is the players who talk about how much they like, respect and have confidence in him.

If you talk to Eric Winston about Kubiak things, he couldn't be any more enthusiastic, and he comes across like someone who wants to punch every Kubiak critic in the face. (though he never said such a thing--it's just he gets very enthusiastic about the subject).

I guess some people will say that I'm hearing what I want to hear or whatever. But I do think that my view of Kubiak is "tainted" by the effusive praise I've heard from his players.

FWIW.

These players are on a 5-7 team, so to be quite honest, if they like this head coach so much, then why aren't they going above and beyond to play for him? Why aren't they running through walls for him? Do they like Kubiak, or "like-like" Kubiak? Their endorsement of him rings hollow to my ears.

If Winston wants to bust me in the face for voicing my opinion, be my guest. My bank account will appreciate it after I get out of the hospital. It's so freaking lame to read his perspective when they have NEVER gotten above .500 with this coach. It sounds so accepting of mediocrity.

At this point, the Houston Texans players are NOT winners - EVER! One more loss this season and we are averaging 10 losses per year for eight years. I'm just not sure how much I give a crap about what they have to say when the final results are clearly and utterly FAILURE.

Can you imagine how the real world looks at Texans fans if we were to heap praise on our team the way that some of these players heap it on Kubiak? Out-of-touch and delusion are adjectives that come to mind. :mcnugget:

thunderkyss
12-10-2009, 12:37 PM
Bob doesn't know any better ...

Why do we assume we know more about football than Bob McNair? & asking John McClain for advice?

Really?

HoustonFrog
12-10-2009, 12:39 PM
These players are on a 5-7 team, so to be quite honest, if they like this head coach so much, then why aren't they going above and beyond to play for him? Why aren't they running through walls for him? Do they like Kubiak, or "like-like" Kubiak? Their endorsement of him rings hollow to my ears.

If Winston wants to bust me in the face for voicing my opinion, be my guest. My bank account will appreciate it after I get out of the hospital. It's so freaking lame to read his perspective when they have NEVER gotten above .500 with this coach. It sounds so accepting of mediocrity.

At this point, the Houston Texans players are NOT winners - EVER! One more loss this season and we are averaging 10 losses per year for eight years. I'm just not sure how much I give a crap about what they have to say when the final results are clearly and utterly FAILURE.

Can you imagine how the real world looks at Texans fans if we were to heap praise on our team the way that some of these players heap it on Kubiak? Out-of-touch and delusion are adjectives that come to mind. :mcnugget:

Props to you!

You have to put things into perspective in the NFL landscape. The question becomes..."where do you want to be and what do you expect." As I said yesterday, Wade Phillips has the second most wins over the last few years behind BB yet he might get canned. Why?Expectations are playoff wins and SBs and a team with talent is underachieving and is constantly penalized. So people are telling me that they don't want a guy fired because his .500 marks are better than what they were under Capers and because the progress may lead to the playoffs down the road. Those aren't lofty expectations or goals if you ask me. Shoot for the fricking stars.

Maybe the players enjoy Gary because there isn't much accountability and they are making bank while doing a minimal amount. No repercussions. I mean guys aren't afraid to question his play call last week and they sure weren't afraid to put things on their shoes the beginning of the season. I don't think they fear losing their jobs or having consequences for not performing.

Texans_Chick
12-10-2009, 12:42 PM
Can't this argument be made for many head coaches that get fired? The plays are designed to be successful, so when they are not, it is easy to point at the players and blame them for lack of execution.

The bigger picture with that play is context. We are an inconsistent team, and not one prone to high-risk trick plays. It was first down, but we didn't use our Pro Bowl playmaker? We don't have a running game - STILL - so how is that the players' faults? The blocking scheme and it's failure is on Kubiak's head, because he chose the scheme, the plays, and the players to run it.

Even Dom Capers used the excuse that the players were not executing the plays, which is arguably true from certain perspectives. I feel deja vu when hearing this as a defense of Kubiak.



These players are on a 5-7 team, so to be quite honest, if they like this head coach so much, then why aren't they going above and beyond to play for him? Why aren't they running through walls for him? Do they like Kubiak, or "like-like" Kubiak? Their endorsement of him rings hollow to my ears.

If Winston wants to bust me in the face for voicing my opinion, be my guest. My bank account will appreciate it after I get out of the hospital. It's so freaking lame to read his perspective when they have NEVER gotten above .500 with this coach. It sounds so accepting of mediocrity.

At this point, the Houston Texans players are NOT winners - EVER! One more loss this season and we are averaging 10 losses per year for eight years. I'm just not sure how much I give a crap about what they have to say when the final results are clearly and utterly FAILURE.

Can you imagine how the real world looks at Texans fans if we were to heap praise on our team the way that some of these players heap it on Kubiak? Out-of-touch and delusion are adjectives that come to mind. :mcnugget:

The Football Outsider piece that I linked to in a different thread suggests that predictions of playoffs for 2009 weren't very realistic given the age of the roster, the roster consistency, and their predictions for other AFC South opponents to have strong years, their past performance.

On both offense and defense, the Kubiak Texans have improved every year.

Young teams that aren't used to playing together make mistakes no matter how hard they are coached. I don't think the problems that they have are through a lack of effort or wanting to please, I just think they aren't terribly experienced and have a lot of try hard players in various positions.

Kubiak is responsible for the roster in great degree, but the inexperience at a lot of premium positions like DE or LT is because typically those are positions that are difficult to get in free agency and you have to develop them. Also, a lot of experienced players that should be on the roster are not because of the Casserly mis-drafts. The salary cap position in 2006 didn't help much either. I am guessing Kubiak would want do overs on a number of decisions but most coaching staffs do--they've had a lot of hits in the lower rounds mostly because they've had to get good use of lower round picks.

The problem we have to some degree is expectations. There's FO numbers that suggest that past wins don't do a good job of predicting future wins because of the luck involved in a 16 game season--a ball bouncing one way or another.

That doesn't make us feel any better about things, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
The problem we have to some degree is expectations. I can't buy this. You honestly think that in year 9 we are expecting too much for a playoff spot or at least a winning record in Kubiak's 3rd full year when 6 of 16 teams make the playoffs each year?

Vinny
12-10-2009, 12:52 PM
Why do we assume we know more about football than Bob McNair? & asking John McClain for advice?

Really?Bob wasn't a "football executive" before he bought the team. He was just a fan like you and I.

houstonspartan
12-10-2009, 12:55 PM
I can't buy this. You honestly think that in year 9 we are expecting too much for a playoff spot or at least a winning record in Kubiak's 3rd full year when 6 of 16 teams make the playoffs each year?

I don't buy it, either. I wasn't demading playoffs. I only wanted an improvement over the last two years. I don't think 10-6 was too much to ask.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 12:56 PM
Props to you!

You have to put things into perspective in the NFL landscape. The question becomes..."where do you want to be and what do you expect." As I said yesterday, Wade Phillips has the second most wins over the last few years behind BB yet he might get canned. Why?Expectations are playoff wins and SBs and a team with talent is underachieving and is constantly penalized. So people are telling me that they don't want a guy fired because his .500 marks are better than what they were under Capers and because the progress may lead to the playoffs down the road. Those aren't lofty expectations or goals if you ask me. Shoot for the fricking stars.

Maybe the players enjoy Gary because there isn't much accountability and they are making bank while doing a minimal amount. No repercussions. I mean guys aren't afraid to question his play call last week and they sure weren't afraid to put things on their shoes the beginning of the season. I don't think they fear losing their jobs or having consequences for not performing.

That is an excellent point. Here's how the Tennessee Titans retooled from
a 12-4 playoff team, two scrub seasons, and the very tough squad we
see today:

2008/13-3
2007/10-6
2006/8-8
2005/4-12
2004/5-11
2003/12-4

So, in 5 years, that's three good seasons, one mediocre season, two bad
seasons.

2008/8-8
2007/8-8
2006/6-10
Gary Kubiak: 1 bad season, 2 mediocre seasons sold to its fans as "The Best In
Franchise History"

Jeff Fisher kept his job because the credibility he gained in 2003 gave
him 2+ seasons to turn it around. 2007 and 2008 gave gives him more
time to turn this team around in 2010, because HE'S PROVEN HE COULD
DO IT BEFORE!! Our players seem WAAY too carefree when in comes to
wins and losses. So long as the game is exciting, they're good. The
win is "nice to have," but it's NOT the reason they strap it up everyday.

Go back, and watch the video of Bernard Pollard's first impressions of the
Texans locker room. He was gushing about how the coaches gave the
players control of the practices. Such a practice would be nice, if your
squad has strong veteran leadership. As it stands now, practice is
nothing more than a "kid's" playground.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 12:58 PM
We really need to quit being programmed by that
"BEST IN FRANCHISE HISTORY" line.

thunderkyss
12-10-2009, 01:00 PM
Let's be honest here...

The only NFL head coaches Andre has ever known is Dom Capers and Gary Kubiak, does he really even know what it takes to win in this league from that position?

He's clueless but you've got the right answer?


Riiiiiiiight.

Texans_Chick
12-10-2009, 01:11 PM
I can't buy this. You honestly think that in year 9 we are expecting too much for a playoff spot or at least a winning record in Kubiak's 3rd full year when 6 of 16 teams make the playoffs each year?

The Texans had one of the worst defenses in the league for the four previous years, and the youngest starting lineup in the league on both offense and defense. If you can draft just about any position on defense and get an upgrade, that means your team still has problems.

Team doesn't control things like what quality free agents might be available. And they certainly didn't control the sucking sound that Casserly left the cap when he left or that Andre Johnson, Chester Pitts, Kris Brown and Dunta Robinson were about the extent of what was left in the cupboard.

Kubiak doesn't control that he plays in the AFC South--interestingly, a division that traditionally has had very little coaching turnover.

Yeah, fans should want playoffs and the Texans given their roster needed some breaks to get in. They've shot themselves in the foot with execution, made some mistakes, but they've also had some buzzard's luck.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 01:13 PM
The Texans had one of the worst defenses in the league for the four previous years, and the youngest starting lineup in the league on both offense and defense. If you can draft just about any position on defense and get an upgrade, that means your team still has problems.

Team doesn't control things like what quality free agents might be available. And they certainly didn't control the sucking sound that Casserly left the cap when he left or that Andre Johnson, Chester Pitts, Kris Brown and Dunta Robinson were about the extent of what was left in the cupboard.

Kubiak doesn't control that he plays in the AFC South--interestingly, a division that traditionally has had very little coaching turnover.

Yeah, fans should want playoffs and the Texans given their roster needed some breaks to get in. They've shot themselves in the foot with execution, made some mistakes, but they've also had some buzzard's luck.
Jacksonville doesn't control them playing in the AFC South nor does TN but they make the playoffs and bounce back from bad years. We have been equally rotten with those teams over the years in a single year, so whats so magical about them? We are the only team that doesn't bounce. These excuses ring hollow in year 8

2009 - Week 13 - 5-7
2008 - Week 13 - 5-7
2007 - Week 13 - 5-7

MojoX
12-10-2009, 01:14 PM
I can't buy this. You honestly think that in year 9 we are expecting too much for a playoff spot or at least a winning record in Kubiak's 3rd full year when 6 of 16 teams make the playoffs each year?

I might remember this wrong but wasn't it Texans_Chick and yourself who warned fans about this team's reliance on young, inexperienced players in key starting positions? In particular, I remember folks warning us that the defense (especially the secondary) would likely suffer if it played the risk-taking style Bush was selling with the personnel the team had. (A prediction that was proven prescient by the fact that Kubiak had Bush simplify the defense after the early struggles.) Those early discussions lowered my expectations for this season and I just figured this team would really be one more year of experience and one offseason away from the playoffs.

I'm not saying it is too much to want to see this team make the playoffs after 9 years, but I am saying that its not like this team's struggles really blindsided anyone. While I didn't think both starting guards would go down so early in the season, the only thing that caught me off guard was Slaton's severe fumbling problem; a very unfortunate development for the entire team.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 01:16 PM
I might remember this wrong but wasn't it Texans_Chick and yourself who warned fans about this team's reliance on young, inexperienced players in key starting positions? In particular, I remember folks warning us that the defense (especially the secondary) would likely suffer if it played the risk-taking style Bush was selling with the personnel the team had. (A prediction that was proven prescient by the fact that Kubiak had Bush simplify the defense after the early struggles.) Those early discussions lowered my expectations for this season and I just figured this team would really be one more year of experience and one offseason away from the playoffs.

I'm not saying it is too much to want to see this team make the playoffs after 9 years, but I am saying that its not like this team's struggles really blindsided anyone. While I didn't think both starting guards would go down so early in the season, the only thing that caught me off guard was Slaton's severe fumbling problem; a very unfortunate development for the entire team.
yeah, I was more realistic than most of the fans but I still pegged us at 9-7 and pushing for a playoff spot. We are out of the playoffs in week 13 after accumulating 5 wins....again.

2009 - Week 13 - 5-7
2008 - Week 13 - 5-7
2007 - Week 13 - 5-7

MojoX
12-10-2009, 01:32 PM
yeah, I was more realistic than most of the fans but I still pegged us at 9-7 and pushing for a playoff spot. We are out of the playoffs in week 13 after accumulating 5 wins....again.

2009 - Week 13 - 5-7
2008 - Week 13 - 5-7
2007 - Week 13 - 5-7

I'm disappointed too. The 5-3 start despite the Jets disaster had me hopeful. The team was succeeding despite Slaton's problems and the injuries and Cushing was coming on strong. The one-play short losses were frustrating, but once Wilson went on IR, I just let it go; no way this team would win with Busing in the lineup. Since then, I've just been hoping the team would keep fighting and not give up on the coach.

Anyway, I think that if the safety spots and DT (NT!!!!) get some love in the offseason, given another year for the defense to mature and gel, this team should be in the playoffs. They need help on the interior OL and some Slaton insurance, but I think that whoever is coaching this team next season should finally get this team to bear playoff fruit.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 01:36 PM
I'm disappointed too. The 5-3 start despite the Jets disaster had me hopeful. The team was succeeding despite Slaton's problems and the injuries and Cushing was coming on strong. The one-play short losses were frustrating, but once Wilson went on IR, I just let it go; no way this team would win with Busing in the lineup. Since then, I've just been hoping the team would keep fighting and not give up on the coach.

Anyway, I think that if the safety spots and DT (NT!!!!) get some love in the offseason, given another year for the defense to mature and gel, this team should be in the playoffs. They need help on the interior OL and some Slaton insurance, but I think that whoever is coaching this team next season should finally get this team to bear playoff fruit.
I'm with you, but didn't we say something like that last year and the year before? For the record, I have already accepted the fact that Kubiak is gonna be the coach, but I don't see where he is any better than Hugh Campbell was....in fact they remind me of each other.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 01:42 PM
The problem we have to some degree is expectations.

2009 - Week 13 - 5-7
2008 - Week 13 - 5-7
2007 - Week 13 - 5-7

I don't think it is unrealistic to expect a team that has posted back-to-back 8-8 seasons to post a winning season.

As it stands right now, we have to win 3 out of 4 to even match those records.

I was of the mindset similar to Vinny. I did not predict or expect playoffs. I did expect improvement, which is clearly a 9-7 or better record. If Mr. McNair is happy with non-winning mediocre football, then it is his decision alone to make and accept the consequences. I will be here next season and the one after that and so on, but I'm not going to wear blinders to what is clearly obvious.

I think the biggest obstacle is the fear of change by those who are pro-Kubiak. I have yet to see a strong logical argument made why he should deserve another year, and I have read a wide variety of opinions and perspectives on the subject (i.e. from myopic Koolaiders to well informed football minds). I do understand their points, but they have not changed my mind in the slightest.

IF these players really want Kubiak around next season, then play like it. Play like everything is on the line and prove to fans that he has not lost the team. Prove it that they still have fire in their bellies and still believe in this regime. We know what a team that has quit the HC looks like, so it will not be hard to spot. That might be the one argument that can be made to consider keeping him around, IMHO, but they have to do it first.

MojoX
12-10-2009, 01:58 PM
I'm with you, but didn't we say something like that last year and the year before? For the record, I have already accepted the fact that Kubiak is gonna be the coach, but I don't see where he is any better than Hugh Campbell was....in fact they remind me of each other.

True, true... like a broken record.

This team loses due to finer points of player execution. That does fall on the coach, who should either teach and drill the desire for perfect performance into his players or get players who desire it already. I'm 50/50 on Kubiak, right now. If he is tossed, I shed no tear; it's just the end of what could have been a great narrative. If he is kept, so be it; but if this team is mediocre again, that should be the end of the road. No excuses.

thunderkyss
12-10-2009, 02:55 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

AJ backtracking on his previous comments is telling, IMO.

Either he is conflicted and doesn't know who he is, hence the dropping of easy passes and the catching of difficult passes (lapse of concentration, and curious inconsistency when you'd think he'd grab certain passes but fails to do so...then hangs his head and goes "zombie" on the team for a few quarters).

Or, he's been asked to strike a more supportive tone.

Or, he really does feel the way he feels.

I don't think it's back tracking to say, "I would have liked to have my name called on that one...." or "I don't know what he was thinking there."

& then come back & say, "I like Kubiak because he does a great job at getting us prepared."

Those are two totally different, unrelated, & could both be true statements.

I know I've gone overboard "defending" Gary Kubiak, but I do believe in what he is doing, I believe he's on the right track, & I believe success will come quicker, & last longer if he stays, than if we brought in a "new flavor".

I believe Dom Capers could come in & "coach" this team to an AFC Championship next year.

At the same time, when I heard that HB pass called on the radio (I was at work) I was furious for the same reasons every one else here is upset.

My first action was to ask for pink soap when I had a chance.

But after going back, watching the play, & assessing the situation...... I'm in a different place now. I don't think I was wrong about my initial reaction, or anything I might have said at the time.

But looking at the big picture, I believe in Harvey Dent... I mean Gary Kubiak.

He is Barry Sanders, and we are the Lions at this point.

QFT

Carr Bombed
12-10-2009, 04:09 PM
He's clueless but you've got the right answer?


Riiiiiiiight.

Umm.....please tell me when the hell I ever said I have the answers. :rolleyes:

This is a message board and we post opinions, if we didn't do that, this board wouldn't even be here.

All I'm saying is Andre has never played for a winning organization and really, neither has any of our other players on this team. This team still hasn't learned what it takes to win in this league and THAT is pretty damn apparent seeing how they can never finish games or make the winning plays that turns losses into wins. No player on this team has really ever been around a "winner" at the head coaching position, so when I listen to what they have to say about Kubiak, I don't put as much weight into it as I would say someone like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or any other player that has played for winning NFL coaches.

I do know this though....I'm not some buffoon who has spent the good part of a year preaching the greatness of Chris Myers :rolleyes:

thunderkyss
12-10-2009, 05:18 PM
Umm.....please tell me when the hell I ever said I have the answers. :rolleyes:

You're confident that Kubiak needs to go. I'm assuming from the experience you've had rubbing elbows with Super Bowl winning coaches.

You are saying in your post, that AJ doesn't know any better. If he had your insight, surely he would agree that it's time for GK to go.

This is a message board and we post opinions, if we didn't do that, this board wouldn't even be here.

& my opinion is that AJ knows when he thinks a coach is doing his job, & when he's not. He's been a winner all his life, until he got here.

I don't put as much weight into it as I would say someone like Tom Brady,...


Bellichick was a loser before Brady


I do know this though....I'm not some buffoon who has spent the good part of a year preaching the greatness of Chris Myers :rolleyes:

Buffoon? Moi?

jerek
12-10-2009, 05:27 PM
The bigger picture with that play is context. We are an inconsistent team, and not one prone to high-risk trick plays.

I already agreed that it was not a high-percentage play and I also agree that Kubiak should've chosen better within, as you called it, that context.

I just look at the entirety of the season and if I were to sum up the reasons why we are 5-7, I see players not making plays - not coaches making bad play calls.

We don't have a running game - STILL - so how is that the players' faults? The blocking scheme and it's failure is on Kubiak's head, because he chose the scheme, the plays, and the players to run it.

I know we don't run well, but that's all on Kubiak? Do injuries count? Did Kubiak tell Slaton to fumble?

I have to sort of echo what I've seen TC and others say - the Texans have improved noticeably every single year Kubiak's been here. Now I don't envy the FO when they sit down to decide whether he's improving things quickly enough and maybe he's not.

I absolutely agree that some of this year's problems are on Kubes and the coaching staff, but I think it's a bit of a witch hunt to blame him as much as people seem to be doing here.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 05:35 PM
I honestly don't see a "witch hunt", bro'. I think many fans have just come to the conclusion that Kubiak has taken the team as far as he can take it. From his boneheaded coaching decisions to the personnel that he's picked to his overall demeanor about losing ("It's all my fault"), many Texans fans feel that this coordinator does not have the stuff that makes other coaches good head coaches.

People were pretty much on board after back-to-back 8-8 seasons. It is perplexing that so many are so willing to accept yet another platter of mediocrity, and the constant string through all of them is fear of change and our stat sheets indicate that we are "improving".

Perhaps it's just a matter of different perspectives regarding the definition of "improvement". Some see it in the final results, while others choose some other way to see it.

I do not think everything about Kubiak is failure. I give him props in a number of areas. I have just come to the point of believing that he does not have it in him to be a good head coach for this team at this point in time. That's not a witch hunt conclusion, but rather a slow, erosive drip of mediocre results and consistent failure the past couple of seasons.

Hervoyel
12-10-2009, 05:40 PM
Why do we assume we know more about football than Bob McNair? & asking John McClain for advice?

Really?


I see the fruits of Bob McNair's labor and ask why we just assume he knows any more about football than the average guy on the street.

jerek
12-10-2009, 05:45 PM
I think many fans have just come to the conclusion that Kubiak has taken the team as far as he can take it.

I would also agree that Kubiak might not be the stuff of an elite coach and for many of the "intangibles" (demeanor, untimely blown play calls, etc.) that you mentioned.

I do however think he and Smith have put together a pretty solid team.

I will also disclaim my statements in saying I don't watch every game (I've seen four this year - Bengals, Colts x 2 and the Titans at Reliant) both for living in Ohio and lack of free time.

But my impression is that we are light years removed from Capersball and still moving in the right direction. I know that great teams rebound from misfortune (like injuries) so I don't want to make him excuses, but I'm not sure I wouldn't give him one more year to prove himself ... in large part because when I look around there's no one available, with the possible exception of Cowher, that I see doing a better job right now.

That's just where I come out of it.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 05:56 PM
I would also agree that Kubiak might not be the stuff of an elite coach and for many of the "intangibles" (demeanor, untimely blown play calls, etc.) that you mentioned.

I do however think he and Smith have put together a pretty solid team.

I will also disclaim my statements in saying I don't watch every game (I've seen four this year - Bengals, Colts x 2 and the Titans at Reliant) both for living in Ohio and lack of free time.

But my impression is that we are light years removed from Capersball and still moving in the right direction. I know that great teams rebound from misfortune (like injuries) so I don't want to make him excuses, but I'm not sure I wouldn't give him one more year to prove himself ... in large part because when I look around there's no one available, with the possible exception of Cowher, that I see doing a better job right now.

That's just where I come out of it.
Wasn't this pretty much your "david carr" argument? intangibles, he's a great guy, who's better to replace him with, and he's learning from his mistakes and so on?

TheRealJoker
12-10-2009, 06:01 PM
Bob Mcnair will basically be admitting defeat if his rationale for keeping Kubiak is, "Well, there's nobody out there other than Cowher."

thunderkyss
12-10-2009, 06:05 PM
It is perplexing that so many are so willing to accept yet another platter of mediocrity, and the constant string through all of them is fear of change and our stat sheets indicate that we are "improving".

Perhaps it's just a matter of different perspectives regarding the definition of "improvement". Some see it in the final results, while others choose some other way to see it.


I'm not excited about the mediocrity. Before this season, when people were talking about "Play-offs or Bust" I was trying to temper that as well. Thousands of things can happen in an NFL season, that would keep a good team, & a good Coach out of the play-offs. The Steelers being a good example right now (though they can very well pull something out of thin air, & make the play-offs this year.

I understand their recent success helps ease the fans feelings about the future of their franchise, but, to me, it doesn't change the fact that they lost 4 games in a row, to teams they should have beat.

Which puts them in the same situation as we are. IMHO.

But, I think Mike Tomlin is in a worse situation than we are in, because he took over a good team, he's experienced success, & if he was on top of his game, this shouldn't have happened.

When I look at the Texans, I think about my girls softball team, or basketball team. Both of which I coach. After the first practice, I assessed my team, & new I've got to teach these girls how to play, before I can teach them how to win.

I understand these are all pro football players, but they have got to learn how to play before they learn how to win.

3.5 years, should be long enough with the blue chips we now have, I'm not denying that. But this is the first year they've been 100% ZB, & this is the first year the Defense knew what they wanted to do.

Both sides of the ball is playing very well, the running lanes are there, because of the OL. The defense shows flashes of greatness.

I'm seeing Gary's plan unfold.

I understand the "4 years no play-offs time for GK to go" crowd. I really do. I just think we're so close, it doesn't make sense to dump him now.

Play-offs were unrealistic for this season ( I know I was probably leading the charge at one time). But next year, depending on what we see these last 4 games... AFC Championship may not be too far off.

I'm just saying let him finish what he started.

barrett
12-10-2009, 06:14 PM
People were pretty much on board after back-to-back 8-8 seasons. It is perplexing that so many are so willing to accept yet another platter of mediocrity, and the constant string through all of them is fear of change and our stat sheets indicate that we are "improving".

Perhaps it's just a matter of different perspectives regarding the definition of "improvement". Some see it in the final results, while others choose some other way to see it.

I do not think everything about Kubiak is failure. I give him props in a number of areas. I have just come to the point of believing that he does not have it in him to be a good head coach for this team at this point in time. That's not a witch hunt conclusion, but rather a slow, erosive drip of mediocre results and consistent failure the past couple of seasons.

I'd like to try to understand better what has changed for many of you who felt "on board" after two 8-8's but not so much with the possibilty of a 3rd?

I'm not excited about the mediocrity. Before this season, when people were talking about "Play-offs or Bust" I was trying to temper that as well. Thousands of things can happen in an NFL season, that would keep a good team, & a good Coach out of the play-offs. The Steelers being a good example right now (though they can very well pull something out of thin air, & make the play-offs this year.

I understand their recent success helps ease the fans feelings about the future of their franchise, but, to me, it doesn't change the fact that they lost 4 games in a row, to teams they should have beat.

Which puts them in the same situation as we are. IMHO.

But, I think Mike Tomlin is in a worse situation than we are in, because he took over a good team, he's experienced success, & if he was on top of his game, this shouldn't have happened.

When I look at the Texans, I think about my girls softball team, or basketball team. Both of which I coach. After the first practice, I assessed my team, & new I've got to teach these girls how to play, before I can teach them how to win.

I understand these are all pro football players, but they have got to learn how to play before they learn how to win.

3.5 years, should be long enough with the blue chips we now have, I'm not denying that. But this is the first year they've been 100% ZB, & this is the first year the Defense knew what they wanted to do.

Both sides of the ball is playing very well, the running lanes are there, because of the OL. The defense shows flashes of greatness.

I'm seeing Gary's plan unfold.

I understand the "4 years no play-offs time for GK to go" crowd. I really do. I just think we're so close, it doesn't make sense to dump him now.

Play-offs were unrealistic for this season ( I know I was probably leading the charge at one time). But next year, depending on what we see these last 4 games... AFC Championship may not be too far off.

I'm just saying let him finish what he started.

I want to disagree on one point. I don't think playoffs were unrealistic. Otherwise, I agree whole heartedly.

DexmanC
12-10-2009, 06:20 PM
I'm not excited about the mediocrity. Before this season, when people were talking about "Play-offs or Bust" I was trying to temper that as well. Thousands of things can happen in an NFL season, that would keep a good team, & a good Coach out of the play-offs. The Steelers being a good example right now (though they can very well pull something out of thin air, & make the play-offs this year.

I understand their recent success helps ease the fans feelings about the future of their franchise, but, to me, it doesn't change the fact that they lost 4 games in a row, to teams they should have beat.

Which puts them in the same situation as we are. IMHO.

But, I think Mike Tomlin is in a worse situation than we are in, because he took over a good team, he's experienced success, & if he was on top of his game, this shouldn't have happened.

When I look at the Texans, I think about my girls softball team, or basketball team. Both of which I coach. After the first practice, I assessed my team, & new I've got to teach these girls how to play, before I can teach them how to win.

I understand these are all pro football players, but they have got to learn how to play before they learn how to win.

3.5 years, should be long enough with the blue chips we now have, I'm not denying that. But this is the first year they've been 100% ZB, & this is the first year the Defense knew what they wanted to do.

Both sides of the ball is playing very well, the running lanes are there, because of the OL. The defense shows flashes of greatness.

I'm seeing Gary's plan unfold.

I understand the "4 years no play-offs time for GK to go" crowd. I really do. I just think we're so close, it doesn't make sense to dump him now.

Play-offs were unrealistic for this season ( I know I was probably leading the charge at one time). But next year, depending on what we see these last 4 games... AFC Championship may not be too far off.

I'm just saying let him finish what he started.

That's what they said about Dubya. Whew. That worked out
pretty well...

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 06:32 PM
I understand the "4 years no play-offs time for GK to go" crowd. I really do. I just think we're so close, it doesn't make sense to dump him now.

Play-offs were unrealistic for this season ( I know I was probably leading the charge at one time). But next year, depending on what we see these last 4 games... AFC Championship may not be too far off.

I'm just saying let him finish what he started.

Much has been said about first year coaches changing the fortunes of teams the past few years.

Did these coaches overhaul the entire roster in one off-season? Of course not! They most likely inherited a team of some other coach's hard work and had a roster of talent that they utilized to turn it around.

How long do you personally give Kubiak to "finish what he started"? 2010? 2011? 2012? It seems that this perspective is more about patience than anything else.

I'd like to try to understand better what has changed for many of you who felt "on board" after two 8-8's but not so much with the possibilty of a 3rd?

I suppose each of us lines up to that buffet and has a different appetite and maximum amount to eat before saying "enough".

For me, it has just been this entire season of sloppy, unprepared football. The inability to play four consistent quarters of football in a game, the lack of adjustments, the boneheaded coaching decisions during games, the unwillingness to allow our QB to call audibles, and hearing Kubiak say it's his fault time and time again, etc. etc. I've finally started to believe him when he says it now, whereas in previous seasons, I grabbed for the same arguments that you are making now.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 06:36 PM
I'd like to try to understand better what has changed for many of you who felt "on board" after two 8-8's but not so much with the possibilty of a 3rd?48 games of .500 ball while in that time there have been 36 playoff spots for 32 teams in three years. I bet there are only a handful of teams that will not have qualified for at least one spot over the last three seasons. All of them are considered the dregs of the league.

Double Barrel
12-10-2009, 06:41 PM
48 games of .500 ball while in that time there have been 36 playoff spots for 32 teams in three years. I bet there are only a handful of teams that will not have qualified for at least one spot over the last three seasons. All of them are considered the dregs of the league.

yeah, but the argument goes that we are the MOST IMPROVED of those dregs, so what's the problem?!

jerek
12-10-2009, 06:54 PM
Wasn't this pretty much your "david carr" argument? intangibles, he's a great guy, who's better to replace him with, and he's learning from his mistakes and so on?

I don't really see them as the same argument at all. And surely you're not comparing Carr to Kubiak.

barrett
12-10-2009, 06:55 PM
Much has been said about first year coaches changing the fortunes of teams the past few years.

Did these coaches overhaul the entire roster in one off-season? Of course not! They most likely inherited a team of some other coach's hard work and had a roster of talent that they utilized to turn it around.

How long do you personally give Kubiak to "finish what he started"? 2010? 2011? 2012? It seems that this perspective is more about patience than anything else.



I suppose each of us lines up to that buffet and has a different appetite and maximum amount to eat before saying "enough".

For me, it has just been this entire season of sloppy, unprepared football. The inability to play four consistent quarters of football in a game, the lack of adjustments, the boneheaded coaching decisions during games, the unwillingness to allow our QB to call audibles, and hearing Kubiak say it's his fault time and time again, etc. etc. I've finally started to believe him when he says it now, whereas in previous seasons, I grabbed for the same arguments that you are making now.

I think you're absolutely right. I think it does come down to patience. And I'd be willing to bet it's harder for us than just about any other team in the league except maybe the Lions. And then I think about us vs. them (the Lions) and I see a lot of what we saw in this team 5 years ago. Bad, bad football. Bad personnel, bad tackling, missed assignments, bad angles, lack of effort etc. And every year I feel like we've gotten further and further away from that image. Has it been at the rate that I would have liked? No. But I think that's what fuels my patience. Even though I'm seeing and am frustrated by the same exact things that you are. I think you're absolutely right in that sense. My patience hasn't run out yet. He has another year on his contract after all.

Vinny
12-10-2009, 06:56 PM
I don't really see them as the same argument at all. And surely you're not comparing Carr to Kubiak.
Ok, so you are saying you didn't use those arguments? I may have to go search the database at the .com and find some of your quotes and some of those neg reps you and your boiez gave out back then. I have the full uncut backup of everything ya know.

Goatcheese
12-10-2009, 07:53 PM
AJ isn't a guy to ruffle feathers.

Lets see what Dunta thinks, not that he has the right to comment or anything... :)

Dunta has said a few times that the coaches have a good plan every week that puts them in position to make plays and win game. He said it's all on the players for not making the plays.

barrett
12-10-2009, 07:56 PM
did you see his extremely long "self filtering pause" after sunday's game?

thunderkyss
12-10-2009, 08:10 PM
How long do you personally give Kubiak to "finish what he started"? 2010? 2011? 2012? It seems that this perspective is more about patience than anything else.

I don't think I've got a timeline set. As soon as you tell them a date, the enemy will just wait until...

whoops, wrong set of talking points.

I'm looking for improvement in every aspect of the game. When I don't see that, I'll agree it's time for him to go.



For me, it has just been this entire season of sloppy, unprepared football.

I honestly can't remember being unprepared for any game other than the Jets game. We got what we wanted in every game, just didn't Exec... you know.

Even Vince Young's option. It was usually to the backside of the run fake. You had two runners, the QB, & the RB. We had a corner, and if the backside LB didn't over pursue 2 out of the 3 times I remember them running the option, we would have stopped it.

The inability to play four consistent quarters of football in a game,

This year started with us not playing 4 Qtrs.. We pretty much played 1st half offense, 2nd half defense. As the year progressed, I saw this team playing more & more, until now, we're playing 4 Qtrs. We're losing by plays now, not Qtrs.

the lack of adjustments,

I definitely think we've improved greatly this year, compared to last year.

the boneheaded coaching decisions during games,

There was that play to set up the field goal... & I know everyone puts the HB pass in there as well.

What else was there?

the unwillingness to allow our QB to call audibles,

I don't get this one either.

and hearing Kubiak say it's his fault time and time again, etc. etc.

I didn't understand this one either. Until I read McNair's comments about the players need to step up & be leaders. It's not enough to put a C on their Jersey or to call them leaders. They have to be leaders.

Since then, It appeared to me, that GK is just trying to keep the scrutiny off his leaders. They already have enough on them.

jerek
12-10-2009, 08:29 PM
Ok, so you are saying you didn't use those arguments? I may have to go search the database at the .com and find some of your quotes and some of those neg reps you and your boiez gave out back then. I have the full uncut backup of everything ya know.

What I mean is that the two aren't a valid comparison. I could have used the same arguments verbatim but the two are still an apple to an orange.

Kubiak has arguably had great success as an OC and modest success as the head coach of a heretofore abysmal franchise. In other words there is an established history of some success in this league - contrast to David Carr who was a catastrophic failure on just about every level as a pro. He sucked here, he sucked in Carolina and to my knowledge he hasn't played a meaningful minute in NY.

My arguments for Carr were largely that of his, as I saw it at the time, undeveloped potential. Kubiak has done quite a bit more in his career and yes, with the Texans.

I'm not really interested in arguing with you about it, I just wanted to make my position clear.

Look, put it this way. We were 5-3, Kris Brown missed two field goals, Matt Schaub left his brain in his locker and Chris Brown has a habit of turning it over when we need him most. We have played just about every single game with the exception of a total fart against NY very competitively this year. You may look at the W-L column and to a point that is the only stat worth emphasizing, but I see improvement. That's my take and I'm stickin' to it.

And for every David Carr fanboy post of mine you can find, I can find one of you hatin' on Mario Williams. :winky:

Thorn
12-10-2009, 08:31 PM
Man, this place is getting rougher than the NSZ. LOL

Vinny
12-10-2009, 09:11 PM
And for every David Carr fanboy post of mine you can find, I can find one of you hatin' on Mario Williams. :winky: its more like for every 20 fanboy Carr posts you can find one critical of Mario.
:truck: