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View Full Version : Dissapointment with a season, a coach and a team


Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 10:23 AM
I've been quiet so far this year. Very quiet. I was watching unsure of what to think. Are we the team that got blown out by the Jets? Are we the team that beat the Bengals? WHAT ARE WE? Well we're at that familiar time again. Its December and we are going to play 4 more meaningless games. Fans will shell out $50+ to go watch a team that is stuck in the mud. And so begins the disagreement.

In one corner you have the fire Kubiak crowd. Weighing in at a mighty 55% (ok that's a completely random number) the voice is loud and the reasons are sound. Below .500, dissapointing losses, one play short over and over. The learning curve can't be this big, we can't continue to rely on any variation of Chris Brown, yet we do. I'm sympathetic with this group, no really, I am. I'm sick of dressing my entire family in Texans Uni's only to have drop my head in shame as time expires and we come up a yard or two short or to the left. MAN I'm sick of it. I hate the closeups of Kubiak after a bad play. Why can't we have Jessica Alba as our coach? At least that cod-fished mouth open clueless look would be enticing. FIRE HIS @SS!!!

In the other corner you have the Kubiak apologists. Weighing in at a hefty 45% they are still a force to be rekoned with. They point to the fact that the team Kubes took over couldn't have competed in the WAC, much less the NFL. Now we expect to win every week. (ok we expect to find a new way to lose a game we should have won). The injuries and contract situations have been difficult and your prized rb declined faster than Glenn Davis. (If you know who that is you're a TRUE Houston fan). The list of reasons is long. You can call them excuses, you can call them reasons I don't care... some of them are legitimate and others aren't. The problem is... I agree with them too.

So what to do? I've thought about it a lot. I go back and forth. Monday I was calling for Cower's head (assuming he will come here and fail in 3 years too... that seems to be the pattern). Tuesday I just wanted Kubiaks on a platter stuffed with pink soap. But its hump day now. Its time to start thinking instead of reacting (which is ironic don't you think?... players need to react and not think while fans should think and not react). And here is my suggestion.

First, lets consider the real situation.

This is a young team that is loaded with talent. Johnson, Schaub, Daniels (pre-injury), Mario, Demeco and Cushing are all BIG time players. At every position but RB and CB and the interior OL you have average or better talent. Its not just a young team, it is THE YOUNGEST team in the league. You are not in a situation that you will be losing key players and you don't expect a decline any time soon.

You have drafted VERY well over the last 4 years. You took a team that had a lot of mid-major FBS talent on it and turned it into a very talented team in 4 years. You should be able to add a DT and/or a RB and some secondary help easily.

You lack leadership on the field. Even the veterans on this team have never really played in a winning culture. I know, we brought in someone from a superbowl team this last offseason. Really? Are you going to tell me Arizona has a winning culture? They had a nice 6 game stretch, other than that they are the Texans of the NFC. You MUST go get some veteran leadership at a position that matters. Maybe a center on the OL? Maybe bring in a DT or a LB? They can be backups on the cusp of starting, or maybe even a grizzled vet who is the PITs of the world see as "too expensive to keep". You need that guy who can deliver a "Miracle-esque" speach on cue, especially when the wheels start falling off.

You are very close to being good. This team isn't a "bad team". The are a frustrating team. With Capers, we were hoping to hang around until the 4th and steal one, those days are gone. This team expects to win every week, the problem is they just don't know how. (see comment above)

Realistically, the worst you could see from this team next year is this year. This team has too much talent. Barring injury, the absolute worst this team could do next year is repeat this year. Do I want to go through this? No. In order to get a "known commodity" from what's out there this year we would wind up switching our defense at the very least.

The upside for this team? Very deep into the playoffs. If you draft well (check) and if you get good coaching (not checked yet) this team's first forray into the playoffs could be a deep run. If/when this team gets into the playoffs its not going to be a 9-7 sneak. This team is bound to figure it out at some point, and bust out with a 11-5/12-4 season.

That brings me to my next point, this team doesn't know how to win (also tied to the veteran issue above). That might be the hardest thing about coming back from a 2-14 team. Changing the culture.

So what do you do with all of this? Here's my plan, yours may differ. Tell Kubes he has 20+ games to win his next contract. Don't make him a lame duck coach, explain to the coaches and the team that he is on a 20 game contract. He essentially has 8 preseason games (4 reg this year and 4 real preseason games). Evaluate and find what parts you are really missing. Next year it is playoffs, or no new contract.

Why? Why? Why? The bottom line is this. You are going to add talent, and there aren't many players you risk losing this offseason. The likelyhood that you look any worse to a potential coach (I think Dungy will coach the year after next) is little to none. You need to call Kubes in and tell him to start coaching. Its time for him to stop thinking and start coaching. You'll get him the RB that can hold onto the ball, you'll give Smith the money to go grab a Safety and a Corner and a DT. Right or wrong, its clear that Kubes had the wrong guy as his DC. That is no longer an issue, Bush has this defense playing like it should. On offense we are an interior lineman and a dependable rb away from rivaling the greatest show on turf. You potentially lose 1 year of rebuilding time by keeping him. You have him under contract anyway and there is a good chance that he will figure it out. When Kubiak sits down and evaluates this season, I think he's going to see he was coaching like he didn't have the talent to win. He'll see that he didn't need the gimmiks, the HB passes. He is close to being a premier coach, we are close to being a premier franchise.

The reality is, whenever you let him go, you are going to be at the top of a short list of proven coache's desires. You're going to have a ton of talent and an owner with a history of loyalty. You'll basically have your pick and can go in whatever direction you want. Its not a fun position to be in, but this team is in a much better position than it has been.

Mike

JB
12-09-2009, 11:43 AM
:goodpost::bravo::fans:

Very nice post Mike. I think you summed it up quite nicely.

houstonspartan
12-09-2009, 11:54 AM
You need to call Kubes in and tell him to start coaching. Its time for him to stop thinking and start coaching. This says it all right here.

Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 11:59 AM
[/B]This says it all right here.

Yeah. I think the bad play calls he makes, he seems to think "I need to outsmart the other guy". For the first three years, your talent was below what the other team had... you HAD to do that... He needs to realize that he doesn't have to do that any more. Since our inception, we have been the 2nd most talented team when we stepped on the field in probably 70% of our games, maybe more. Then you do have to outsmart someone.

Now we are the most talented team on the field when we play all but 5 or 6 teams. Kubes needs to realize that and realize that when he tries to outsmart the other coach, he is making a gamble he no longer needs to make. That's just my opinion.

Mike

tedr
12-09-2009, 12:14 PM
Spot on. I haven't read a better description of our situation. Great job.

I agree with the 20-game idea. After the game on Sunday, I was ready to get rid of Kubiak, but the more I think about it, he should get one more year.

Goldensilence
12-09-2009, 12:16 PM
I don't know where to start with this post.

First can you please go back and replace Maria with Mario.

Next I'm sick and tired of being reminded this is the youngest team in the league. If you're going to infuse young talent on a team you better have leaders on the field or a coaching staff that can provide it. Obviously when you go with one of the youngest offensive coordinators in the league and then a first time defensive coordinator with such a young team you're going to have growing pains. This falls on Kubiak's shoulders. His team, his staff.

Next, I think Bush gets too much credit for the turnaround on defense from terrible to mediocre. Sad to say that we've seen such horrid play from the defense that we're excited to see a middle of the pack defense. I think the biggest thing is Bush and Co. got lucky that Cushing has turned out to be such a prime time player. If not this would be a repeat of Dick Smith's defense. I guess getting lucky with Pollard as well. Sorry but either him or Kubiak, or both thought they would be fine going into the season with Busing and Barber. Epic fail.

Offense, Chris Brown. I shouldn't have to say more. They look like they have been unable to adjust to losing OD and now looks like they'll have to adjust to losing Steve Slaton.....

You know I could go on..but what's the point. Guys like you have already made up your mind on retaining Kubiak for some reason that you feel in your guts or that the team is SOOOOOOO close you can feel it.

Unfortunately I think barring a 4 game skid..you'll get your wish.

Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 12:23 PM
I don't know where to start with this post.

First can you please go back and replace Maria with Mario.
Typo's happen man... I've been his biggst fan since BEFORE we drafted him... didn't mean to slight him
Next I'm sick and tired of being reminded this is the youngest team in the league. If you're going to infuse young talent on a team you better have leaders on the field or a coaching staff that can provide it. Obviously when you go with one of the youngest offensive coordinators in the league and then a first time defensive coordinator with such a young team you're going to have growing pains. This falls on Kubiak's shoulders. His team, his staff.

Next, I think Bush gets too much credit for the turnaround on defense from terrible to mediocre. Sad to say that we've seen such horrid play from the defense that we're excited to see a middle of the pack defense. I think the biggest thing is Bush and Co. got lucky that Cushing has turned out to be such a prime time player. If not this would be a repeat of Dick Smith's defense. I guess getting lucky with Pollard as well. Sorry but either him or Kubiak, or both thought they would be fine going into the season with Busing and Barber. Epic fail.

Offense, Chris Brown. I shouldn't have to say more. They look like they have been unable to adjust to losing OD and now looks like they'll have to adjust to losing Steve Slaton.....

You know I could go on..but what's the point. Guys like you have already made up your mind on retaining Kubiak for some reason that you feel in your guts or that the team is SOOOOOOO close you can feel it.

Unfortunately I think barring a 4 game skid..you'll get your wish.

No I won't get my wish. Part of the attraction in keeping kubes is you get to see what you have for 8 games. As for getting lucky, well, Smith went out and got Pollard (we seem to forget that if there was a missing piece to the defense it was HIM), Cushing has done what they expected him to do.

Really, I don't see your point... choose a side man, either you give coaches credit when they win and lose, you give players credit when they win or lose or its some combination of the two... We've got young coaches and a young team... If we have another 8 win season, worse things have happened... and I'll tell you if we bring in another coach with different systems, we may look at a 6 win season... IF there is a better coach that fits this system, bring him in... lets not switch to a 3-4 or go heavy OL this offseason... this is the first time we've had the better team on the field MOST of the time... I don't think Kubes realized that... If he figures that out, and we replace the few bad parts we have (anyone named Chris and Brown) we're going to be a D@MN good team next year... if not... then I was wrong... which is more than most will admit to around here.

Mike

Hervoyel
12-09-2009, 12:40 PM
I need to check this out to be totally certain but I believe another board member recently refuted the "youngest team in the league" angle effectively.

We are something like 14th youngest.

One of the announcers this year used that youngest team in the league line and it's been picked up and run with like an internet meme ever since. Again I can't remember who said it (Goatcheese?) or where the information came from but I will find out. The scary part was that the Colts were up there in the top 5 youngest teams in the league so they've apparently "mostly" reloaded without even going to lousy between great seasons. We take 4 years to rebuild and they are good enough to replace parts as they go, lose a HOF head coach, and from a win/loss perspective actually get better.

Goldensilence
12-09-2009, 12:42 PM
No I won't get my wish. Part of the attraction in keeping kubes is you get to see what you have for 8 games. As for getting lucky, well, Smith went out and got Pollard (we seem to forget that if there was a missing piece to the defense it was HIM), Cushing has done what they expected him to do.

Really, I don't see your point... choose a side man, either you give coaches credit when they win and lose, you give players credit when they win or lose or its some combination of the two... We've got young coaches and a young team... If we have another 8 win season, worse things have happened... and I'll tell you if we bring in another coach with different systems, we may look at a 6 win season... IF there is a better coach that fits this system, bring him in... lets not switch to a 3-4 or go heavy OL this offseason... this is the first time we've had the better team on the field MOST of the time... I don't think Kubes realized that... If he figures that out, and we replace the few bad parts we have (anyone named Chris and Brown) we're going to be a D@MN good team next year... if not... then I was wrong... which is more than most will admit to around here.

Mike

Guess I'm over the attraction of seeing what I have for 8 games. I've seen enough.

I thought I made my point clear, but I guess I haven't this is on the coaching staff. This is Kubiak's roster. If players get the blame for our current record how come nothing goes on the guy that drafted them, signed them, and "coaches" them?

I don't see how we can possibly praise Kubiak and Smith for Pollard while turning a blind eye that they completely did not care about upgrading the position in the off-season at all. They seriously thought entering the season they'd be ok with Busing and Barber. Again as I pointed out Epic FAIL. It's called foresight which is something this staff doesn't seem to have.

I don't get the whole well what if we transition to a 3-4?! Williams and Smith would make good 3-4 DEs. I thought that was half the attract with Smith was that he could slide in as a DT too!(at least that's what I kept hearing) I think Deljuan Robinson could make an adequate NT, not great but something we can transition with until we sign or draft a NT.

I think we'd excel with the LB corps. Diles and Ryans would be the ILB and then you have Cushing, Adibi, and moving Barwin to his more projected spot as a 3-4 Lber.

Secondary would have the same needs either way. A legit FS and I'd be fine to signing Pollard to a moderate contract. He's not all world but he's one of the more competent safeties we've had.

You've spelled out all the reasons that I've heard to keep Kubiak around for the final year of his contract, but I still find not one of them to be overwhelmingly compelling.

What can Kubiak hang his hat on?

JB
12-09-2009, 12:51 PM
I need to check this out to be totally certain but I believe another board member recently refuted the "youngest team in the league" angle effectively.

We are something like 14th youngest.

One of the announcers this year used that youngest team in the league line and it's been picked up and run with like an internet meme ever since. Again I can't remember who said it (Goatcheese?) or where the information came from but I will find out. The scary part was that the Colts were up there in the top 5 youngest teams in the league so they've apparently "mostly" reloaded without even going to lousy between great seasons. We take 4 years to rebuild and they are good enough to replace parts as they go, lose a HOF head coach, and from a win/loss perspective actually get better.

I believe that the Texans are not the youngest team overall, but they have the youngest starting lineup in the league. TC had a blog about this in the past...http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/10/more_on_the_houston_texans_as.html

Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 12:59 PM
Guess I'm over the attraction of seeing what I have for 8 games. I've seen enough.

I thought I made my point clear, but I guess I haven't this is on the coaching staff. This is Kubiak's roster. If players get the blame for our current record how come nothing goes on the guy that drafted them, signed them, and "coaches" them?

I don't see how we can possibly praise Kubiak and Smith for Pollard while turning a blind eye that they completely did not care about upgrading the position in the off-season at all. They seriously thought entering the season they'd be ok with Busing and Barber. Again as I pointed out Epic FAIL. It's called foresight which is something this staff doesn't seem to have.

I don't get the whole well what if we transition to a 3-4?! Williams and Smith would make good 3-4 DEs. I thought that was half the attract with Smith was that he could slide in as a DT too!(at least that's what I kept hearing) I think Deljuan Robinson could make an adequate NT, not great but something we can transition with until we sign or draft a NT.

I think we'd excel with the LB corps. Diles and Ryans would be the ILB and then you have Cushing, Adibi, and moving Barwin to his more projected spot as a 3-4 Lber.

Secondary would have the same needs either way. A legit FS and I'd be fine to signing Pollard to a moderate contract. He's not all world but he's one of the more competent safeties we've had.

You've spelled out all the reasons that I've heard to keep Kubiak around for the final year of his contract, but I still find not one of them to be overwhelmingly compelling.

What can Kubiak hang his hat on?

OK. So answer this then, the list works like this. Cowher, Dungy. If you don't land one of them you are bringing in a coach who is unproven and could well prove to be WORSE than Kubiak. If today, Cowher signs with Carolina and Dungy goes somewhere do you feel the same way?

I guess my question is this... are you cutting Kubes to get better, or are you cutting him just to get different?

Mike

aamcneill
12-09-2009, 01:14 PM
Mike, excellent post. Recently I've moved over to the camp that is in favor of giving Kubiak another year. My angry reactions during games always fall into the "Fire him!" genre, but after sleeping on it and sorting things out, I vote to give him another year.

It's easy for us fans to say fire him and get Cowher or Dungy. Most likely, the Texans won't be able to get either coach and we'll settle for a young, inexperienced coach.

If a coaching change is made, it sets them team back at least a season to adjust to the new schemes and plays. And bring in players who better fit the new system.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 01:16 PM
Mike, excellent post. Recently I've moved over to the camp that is in favor of giving Kubiak another year. My angry reactions during games always fall into the "Fire him!" genre, but after sleeping on it and sorting things out, I vote to give him another year.

It's easy for us fans to say fire him and get Cowher or Dungy. Most likely, the Texans won't be able to get either coach and we'll settle for a young, inexperienced coach.

If a coaching change is made, it sets them team back at least a season to adjust to the new schemes and plays. And bring in players who better fit the new system.I think he gets another year in lieu of McNair's personality but let me ask all you guys who chortle on about how a change sets teams back. How far were the Bucs set back when they went from Dungy to Gruden?

Norg
12-09-2009, 01:20 PM
so bassically you are on the keep Kubes club

that sums up your post pretty much

TexCanada
12-09-2009, 01:20 PM
The thing that this team needs more then anything else is a leader. The leader could be a coach, a player or an owner, doesn't really matter. The problem is right now that we don't have one in any of those spots. If Kubes is getting another year, he needs to be smart about it and bring in a proven guy. We desperately need a guy who knows how to win on our O-line, and another guy somewhere on the defense, preferably at FS. I've said it before, but we need to bring in a guy like Denver did with Dawkins.

aamcneill
12-09-2009, 01:27 PM
I think he gets another year in lieu of McNair's personality but let me ask all you guys who chortle on about how a change sets teams back. How far were the Bucs set back when they went from Dungy to Gruden?

I think that was a different situation. The Bucs were already a playoff team and had a strong defense. There were some changes made, sure. But I think that was an easier transition than most.

It's uncertain how the Texans offense will transition from a zone blocking scheme to something different. Or how the Texans defense would go from 4-3 to 3-4 or something different.

Goldensilence
12-09-2009, 01:30 PM
OK. So answer this then, the list works like this. Cowher, Dungy. If you don't land one of them you are bringing in a coach who is unproven and could well prove to be WORSE than Kubiak. If today, Cowher signs with Carolina and Dungy goes somewhere do you feel the same way?

I guess my question is this... are you cutting Kubes to get better, or are you cutting him just to get different?

Mike

So the Straw-man goes we've got two long shot coaches. If we don't get either of them what's your best option? You might as well say ok two options you can get kicked in the balls or get an ice cream cone. Technically it's still a choice. Either way I'll play

I don't think Dungy is coming out of retirement. I think he's one of those guys that says when he's done, he means it. I'm not even sure why his name is floating around as a candidate.

I think if Carolina does fire Fox it becomes difficult to lure Cowher to Houston.

I think if we fired Gary Kubiak today we instantly become one of if not the best coaching vacancy.

Mike Holmgren could be swayed to come here. Though he's got roots in Seattle overall I think we've got a much better squad.

Although I'm not the biggest Shanahan fan he's out there and has a good resume. I don't buy the well he won't come here if Kubiak gets fired.

John Fox could make an interesting case.

Brian Billick is out there as well.

After that I'd start looking at coordinators from successful coaching trees or franchises.

Let me ask you an equal hypothetical. If we go on a 0-4 slide to finish the season how do you feel about retaining Kubiak? Or are you already set no matter what he returns?

JB
12-09-2009, 01:30 PM
I think that was a different situation. The Bucs were already a playoff team and had a strong defense. They went from one defensive coach to another. There were some changes made, sure. But I think that was an easier transition than most.

It's uncertain how the Texans offense will transition from a zone blocking scheme to something different. Or how the Texans defense would go from 4-3 to 3-4 or something different.

WTF? Damn, I coulda sworn Gruden was an offensive guru that started with Holmgren at Green Bay as QB coach(coaching Farve).

aamcneill
12-09-2009, 01:35 PM
Yeah I know. I changed it right after I posted it.

Goldensilence
12-09-2009, 01:37 PM
I think he gets another year in lieu of McNair's personality but let me ask all you guys who chortle on about how a change sets teams back. How far were the Bucs set back when they went from Dungy to Gruden?

I think other good examples would be Jim More Sr. to Tony Dungy.

Jim Haslett to Sean Payton.

Cam Cameron to Tony Sparano.

Brian Billck to John Harbaugh.

I think the only HC I know of right now who went past when he should've been fired but managed to rebound is Marvin Lewis.

Marcus
12-09-2009, 01:38 PM
I guess my question is this... are you cutting Kubes to get better, or are you cutting him just to get different?

Mike

Don't count on a vast majority to fess up honestly to that question, Mike. The team is losing, so the coach must go. Period. It's strictly change just for change sake. For fans, it's a clear-your-head move in order to feel better going into the offseason. It's nothing more than NFL tradition.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 01:56 PM
I think other good examples would be Jim More Sr. to Tony Dungy.

Jim Haslett to Sean Payton.

Cam Cameron to Tony Sparano.

Brian Billck to John Harbaugh.

I think the only HC I know of right now who went past when he should've been fired but managed to rebound is Marvin Lewis.
Chuck Noll to Bill Cowher also (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1320765&postcount=513).

gtexan02
12-09-2009, 02:01 PM
Chuck Noll to Bill Cowher also (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1320765&postcount=513).

Payton was 7-9 in his 2nd year with the Saints, after making it to the NFC Championship game before. Multiple players on that team regressed.

Sparano is sitting at 6-6 after winning the division last year.

Harbaugh is sitting at 6-6 after making the playoffs last year. Flacco is nowhere near as effective as last year and the defense is not as dominant.

Atlantas coach is in the same position.

The only point Im trying to make is that changing coaches is not going to guarantee years of upward mobility. Most coaches take a step backwards before they go forward again

BigBull17
12-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Payton was 7-9 in his 2nd year with the Saints, after making it to the NFC Championship game before. Multiple players on that team regressed.

Sparano is sitting at 6-6 after winning the division last year.

Harbaugh is sitting at 6-6 after making the playoffs last year. Flacco is nowhere near as effective as last year and the defense is not as dominant.

Atlantas coach is in the same position.

The only point Im trying to make is that changing coaches is not going to guarantee years of upward mobility. Most coaches take a step backwards before they go forward again

But, those guys all did SOMETHING positive. Kubiak has done nothing to give you any hope for next year.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Payton was 7-9 in his 2nd year with the Saints, after making it to the NFC Championship game before. Multiple players on that team regressed.

Sparano is sitting at 6-6 after winning the division last year.

Harbaugh is sitting at 6-6 after making the playoffs last year. Flacco is nowhere near as effective as last year and the defense is not as dominant.

Atlantas coach is in the same position.

The only point Im trying to make is that changing coaches is not going to guarantee years of upward mobility. Most coaches take a step backwards before they go forward againyou really think the Saints regressed? Also, it's impossible to argue that hiring Payton was a bad move. The Dolphins and Ratbirds are both still in the wildcard hunt. We aren't.

Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 02:14 PM
Let me ask you an equal hypothetical. If we go on a 0-4 slide to finish the season how do you feel about retaining Kubiak? Or are you already set no matter what he returns?

That depends. If we see Adrian Foster, Adibi, Jones, Barwin... I'm all good with going 0-4. Personally I'd like to see what we have in the secondary without Robinson playing. I don't think he's our best corner, and if we lose these games by treating them as preseason games (practice squad call ups etc) then I'm good with 0-4. Like I said, my best option is to call Kubiak in and say "You've got 16 regular season games left" (the last 4 this year and the preseason are an extended tryout for the depth on the team and younger players... If that is our 0-4, them I'm good with it... if not... if he's coaching for his life and still blows up at 0-4 I might have a different opinion. I have a plan I'd like to see them execute... How many players could we sign off of other team's practice squads and try out against real NFL competition over the next 4 weeks? We could have tryouts to replace both Chris Browns.

If that's not the route we take then I would reserve the right to change my mind after the season.

Mike

BigBull17
12-09-2009, 02:18 PM
That depends. If we see Adrian Foster, Adibi, Jones, Barwin... I'm all good with going 0-4. Personally I'd like to see what we have in the secondary without Robinson playing. I don't think he's our best corner, and if we lose these games by treating them as preseason games (practice squad call ups etc) then I'm good with 0-4. Like I said, my best option is to call Kubiak in and say "You've got 16 regular season games left" (the last 4 this year and the preseason are an extended tryout for the depth on the team and younger players... If that is our 0-4, them I'm good with it... if not... if he's coaching for his life and still blows up at 0-4 I might have a different opinion. I have a plan I'd like to see them execute... How many players could we sign off of other team's practice squads and try out against real NFL competition over the next 4 weeks? We could have tryouts to replace both Chris Browns.

If that's not the route we take then I would reserve the right to change my mind after the season.

Mike

I agree. Start Quinn if healthy and McCain. Want to see a lil more Barber too, though he is nada more than depth for me at this time. Caldwell, Casey or Hill, and JJ should start on offense. Just get youngins reps. Even P Squad guys like Jameson. Need to know what we got.

Goldensilence
12-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Payton was 7-9 in his 2nd year with the Saints, after making it to the NFC Championship game before. Multiple players on that team regressed.

Still made it to the NCF championship game. Doesn't change the fact Payton knew that would buy him so much time, and went out of staff made a big defensive coaching change. Undefeated atm.

Sparano is sitting at 6-6 after winning the division last year.
Though it should be pointed out even at 6-6 they are still in the playoff and division hunt. I'll also mention that includes losing your starting QB and now starting RB for those of you who like that stuff. Looks like they also found a pretty good QB in Henne.

Harbaugh is sitting at 6-6 after making the playoffs last year. Flacco is nowhere near as effective as last year and the defense is not as dominant.

Hard to be as effective when you just lost the guy who built the defense in Rex Ryan.For a defense that not as effective they are still 6th in rush yards, 15th in pass yards,10 in yards allowed overall, and 6th in points per game. Flacco has already matched his TD total from last year and nearly more in passing yards already. At 6-6 still in the playoff hunt with games left in Det, Chicago, Pitt, and Oakland.

Atlantas coach is in the same position.

Ok let me put Atlanta's coach in perspective. Kubiak gets Kudos from the fan base to turning an 2-14 Casserly and Caper mess in an 8-8 squad 2 years running. Mike Smith takes over a team that had the mess of Mike Vick and Bobby Petrino resigning during the season,and getting a new GM.
He goes out with a rookie QB and goes 11-5. If Kubiak gets leeway for turning a 2-14 team to 8-8, well hell I wonder what you guys really think a guy who took his team to the playoffs a year prior should get.

The only point Im trying to make is that changing coaches is not going to guarantee years of upward mobility. Most coaches take a step backwards before they go forward again

I guess what really puzzles me is this you're pointing teams that at this point in the season are .500. That's the best Kubiak has ever ENDED a season.

The other reality is getting into the playoffs once shows you can do it. That gives you time as a HC to prove it can be done again. Gary Kubiak hasn't even gotten a winning season under his belt and you guys are flinging pebbles at coaches who've gotten their teams not just to the playoffs but made it to a an NFC title game and won their division?

Sure they might have regressed a little but it's not like they've all fallen off the map and are looking at drafting in the top 5.

DexmanC
12-09-2009, 02:49 PM
I guess what really puzzles me is this you're pointing teams that at this point in the season are .500. That's the best Kubiak has ever ENDED a season.

The other reality is getting into the playoffs once shows you can do it. That gives you time as a HC to prove it can be done again. Gary Kubiak hasn't even gotten a winning season under his belt and you guys are flinging pebbles at coaches who've gotten their teams not just to the playoffs but made it to a an NFC title game and won their division?

Sure they might have regressed a little but it's not like they've all fallen off the map and are looking at drafting in the top 5.

I chuckled after the '07 season when the team was making videos
being proud of their 1st "non-losing season." There's no leadership
in practice, nor on the field. When nut-cutting time comes during big
games, the QB throws an interception, the RB throws an interception,
the "veteran" guard false-starts on 4th and 3, our center gets
slapped into the turf, our kicker catches the yips, our star WR drops
a touchdown in his hands, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Under Kubiak, our runningbacks have been: Wali Lundy, Ron Dayne, Chris
Taylor, Ahman Green, Darius Walker, Chris Brown, Ryan Moats, and Steve
Slaton.

Where's the franchise back out of that group? They've had ample opportunity
to upgrade that position, but Kubes believes "his system" is greater than
ANY player. It's the very reason AJ is not given a fade route to the endzone.
It's the very reason we line up at 1st and goal at the 1-yardline, only to
throw three incompletions and settle for a fieldgoal.

When it was time for the Jags to put the game away, they handed the
ball to THEIR franchise back EIGHT CONSECUTIVE TIMES. He got 3 1st
downs out of that sequence. The Texans lined up in an 8-man front, and
it STILL didn't matter. Kubiak's gonna get a franchise back to start 2010?
Take a look at that list of RB's I've bolded, and tell me what gives you THAT
idea.

Big Lou
12-09-2009, 02:51 PM
I think he gets another year in lieu of McNair's personality but let me ask all you guys who chortle on about how a change sets teams back. How far were the Bucs set back when they went from Dungy to Gruden?

When I first glanced at this post i thought you were advocating hiring Dungy or Gruden. Dungy maybe, but Gruden is so far up VY's butt I don't think he could get to the phone fast enough if you called. I used to kinda like that guy, but as an announcer he's a complete douche.

Big Lou
12-09-2009, 02:52 PM
I chuckled after the '07 season when the team was making videos
being proud of their 1st "non-losing season." There's no leadership
in practice, nor on the field. When nut-cutting time comes during big
games, the QB throws an interception, the RB throws an interception,
the "veteran" guard false-starts on 4th and 3, our center gets
slapped into the turf, our kicker catches the yips, our star WR drops
a touchdown in his hands, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Under Kubiak, our runningbacks have been: Wali Lundy, Ron Dayne, Chris
Taylor, Ahman Green, Darius Walker, Chris Brown, Ryan Moats, and Steve
Slaton.

Where's the franchise back out of that group? They've had ample opportunity
to upgrade that position, but Kubes believes "his system" is greater than
ANY player. It's the very reason AJ is not given a fade route to the endzone.
It's the very reason we line up at 1st and goal at the 1-yardline, only to
throw three incompletions and settle for a fieldgoal.

When it was time for the Jags to put the game away, they handed the
ball to THEIR franchise back EIGHT CONSECUTIVE TIMES. He got 3 1st
downs out of that sequence. The Texans lined up in an 8-man front, and
it STILL didn't matter. Kubiak's gonna get a franchise back to start 2010?
Take a look at that list of RB's I've bolded, and tell me what gives you THAT
idea.

Hey now, Green was a Franchise RB!!!!!!






In the mid 90's, hahahahahahaha. Besides Bo Jackson wasn't available due to some hip injury.

DexmanC
12-09-2009, 02:55 PM
Hey now, Green was a Franchise RB!!!!!!






In the mid 90's, hahahahahahaha. Besides Bo Jackson wasn't available due to some hip injury.

Heh. Too bad the franchise was the Green Bay Packers.

Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 03:05 PM
I chuckled after the '07 season when the team was making videos
being proud of their 1st "non-losing season." There's no leadership
in practice, nor on the field. When nut-cutting time comes during big
games, the QB throws an interception, the RB throws an interception,
the "veteran" guard false-starts on 4th and 3, our center gets
slapped into the turf, our kicker catches the yips, our star WR drops
a touchdown in his hands, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Under Kubiak, our runningbacks have been: Wali Lundy, Ron Dayne, Chris
Taylor, Ahman Green, Darius Walker, Chris Brown, Ryan Moats, and Steve
Slaton.

Where's the franchise back out of that group? They've had ample opportunity
to upgrade that position, but Kubes believes "his system" is greater than
ANY player. It's the very reason AJ is not given a fade route to the endzone.
It's the very reason we line up at 1st and goal at the 1-yardline, only to
throw three incompletions and settle for a fieldgoal.

When it was time for the Jags to put the game away, they handed the
ball to THEIR franchise back EIGHT CONSECUTIVE TIMES. He got 3 1st
downs out of that sequence. The Texans lined up in an 8-man front, and
it STILL didn't matter. Kubiak's gonna get a franchise back to start 2010?
Take a look at that list of RB's I've bolded, and tell me what gives you THAT
idea.

I could go to almost any team and find a position they have been weak at for years. Now if you could make a case that we have added talent that we didn't need and ignored the running back, I'd probably take that argument, but if I'm building a team one of my last pieces of the puzzle is RB... given that they have the shortest lifespan in the NFL. And that's not a new argument I'm making for this thread, I've said that numerous times over the last 8 years...


Mike

HoustonFrog
12-09-2009, 03:15 PM
That plan sounded like the one that was laid out last year on here by someone and the motto was "playoffs or bust." I'm not kidding.

HoustonFrog
12-09-2009, 03:29 PM
Payton was 7-9 in his 2nd year with the Saints, after making it to the NFC Championship game before. Multiple players on that team regressed.

Sparano is sitting at 6-6 after winning the division last year.

Harbaugh is sitting at 6-6 after making the playoffs last year. Flacco is nowhere near as effective as last year and the defense is not as dominant.

Atlantas coach is in the same position.

The only point Im trying to make is that changing coaches is not going to guarantee years of upward mobility. Most coaches take a step backwards before they go forward again

But they went forward at least...right away. You also just can't make the assumptions above.

NO is now undefeated.

Sparano has had some key injuries. They are still in the hunt in their tough division and he took over a team that was horrible. 1-15

Atlanta has been decimated by injuries and is still in it and has young talent.

The fact is, these teams made jumps and are still a little ahead of where Kubes is in 4 years.

Sometimes a change helps. Do you think these players are thinking..."a fifth year and we are right there."

I'll again reference the Bill Maas interview on 1560. He said the Chiefs were talented and making the same mistakes the Texans are. They couldn't get over the hump. Then they brought in Marty S and the players realized theri was discipline in things they never thought of and it changed the culture there. There is no accountability or discipline when it comes to the constant mistakes.

Goldensilence
12-09-2009, 03:30 PM
I could go to almost any team and find a position they have been weak at for years. Now if you could make a case that we have added talent that we didn't need and ignored the running back, I'd probably take that argument, but if I'm building a team one of my last pieces of the puzzle is RB... given that they have the shortest lifespan in the NFL. And that's not a new argument I'm making for this thread, I've said that numerous times over the last 8 years...


Mike

Good thing that plan has worked out great the last 8 years.

HF. There's no little jumps about it. 1-15 to winning the division and going to playoffs in Miami. Despite being a 6-6, Miami is still 4-2 in the division and was 4-2 in the division last year.

DexmanC
12-09-2009, 03:36 PM
But they went forwards at least...right away. You also just can't make the assumptions above.

NO is now undefeated.

Sparano has had some key injuries. They are still in the hunt in their tough division and he took over a team that was horrible. 1-15

Atlanta has been decimated by injuries and is still in it and has young talent.

The fact is, these teams made jumps and are still a little ahead of where Kubes is in 4 years.

Sometimes a change helps. Do you think these players are thinking..."a fifth year and we are right there."

By the way. The 6-6 Dolphins hold the tiebreaker in the AFC East with
a 4-2 division record. If you don't think your division record matters, just
remember that 60% of your CONFERENCE record comes from the
division. You need a good conference record and division record for
postseason play.

When will you guys get tired of the mediocrity?

Kaiser Toro
12-09-2009, 03:40 PM
The Dolphins are in the East

Double Barrel
12-09-2009, 03:55 PM
Let me ask you an equal hypothetical. If we go on a 0-4 slide to finish the season how do you feel about retaining Kubiak? Or are you already set no matter what he returns?

From what I have read, the fire-Kubiak crowd has seen enough and nothing will convince them that Kubiak has what it takes to be a good head coach for this team at this point in time.

The pro-Kubiak crowd seems like they are trying to convince themselves of their position, and an 0-4 skid would certainly make the majority of them change their position, IMO. I'm not sure even Captain Sunshine can defend a 5-11 record in a coach's fourth year. No doubt many prayers are being said to the football gods to get this team to 8-8 or 7-9.

Don't count on a vast majority to fess up honestly to that question, Mike. The team is losing, so the coach must go. Period. It's strictly change just for change sake. For fans, it's a clear-your-head move in order to feel better going into the offseason. It's nothing more than NFL tradition.

ahhh, so you read minds now, yeah? Strange that you would not want someone assuming what is in your head, but you have no problem in generalizing what a large segment of the Texans fan base is thinking. Why the criticism of the fans who are not accepting mediocrity, yet a seemingly blind eye to the staff that is directly responsible for said mediocrity? I could have swore that you didn't give a shit...

Marcus
12-09-2009, 04:19 PM
ahhh, so you read minds now, yeah? Strange that you would not want someone assuming what is in your head, but you have no problem in generalizing what a large segment of the Texans fan base is thinking. Why the criticism of the fans who are not accepting mediocrity, yet a seemingly blind eye to the staff that is directly responsible for said mediocrity? I could have swore that you didn't give a shit...

You're right, it's easy to read minds being that they are so simple minds to read. And you're right, I have no problem generalizing what the fanbase is thinking since they generally don't have a ****ing clue as to where the mediocrity originates, and who in fact is directly responsible for what. And you're right, I don't ****ing give a shit. Frankly I wish all of you would choke to death on your childish pink soaps.

Happy? :banme

Porky
12-09-2009, 05:06 PM
When I first glanced at this post i thought you were advocating hiring Dungy or Gruden. Dungy maybe, but Gruden is so far up VY's butt I don't think he could get to the phone fast enough if you called. I used to kinda like that guy, but as an announcer he's a complete douche.

Gruden is WAY WAY better than Tony Kornhole. Not even in the same country much less area code. IMHO of course, but to me Gruden is a real breath of fresh air, and he has John Madden like potential in the booth.

As for Kubes fate, were I pulling the strings he would be gone. The HB option was the last straw. This team has no direction, no leadership, clock management and other ingame management sucks, they are mentally soft, the offense is mentally and physically soft, and the only thing they seem to have learned is how to lose. Now what the hell is another 8 games going to matter? We've given him about 60 games to learn all of the above.

Someone please tell me what another season is going to change. What in year 5 is somehow magically going to change? Is there a coaching fairy that will sprinkle happy dust on him while he sleeps? Someone help me here.

Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 06:27 PM
Good thing that plan has worked out great the last 8 years.


Well, if you're going to be fair in this argument... both DD/DW AND Slaton were surprises that looked a lot like franchise backs until injury/fumblitis... Secondly, take Mario, Ryans, Cushing, or Brown away from this roster... which of them do you take away in order to add your "Franchise" back? Even AO, you can disagree with him as a pick if you want, he was a need position. You have cherry picked one position on a team that had essentially twenty positions at which they MIGHT have had a decent NFL backup starting when Kubiak/Smith got here. That is NOT a hyperbole either. You are complaining that we don't have a Franchise back? As for your "worked out the last 8 years? Had we taken a "franchise back" in year one, we would have Earl Campbell-ed him to death already.

I love when people advocate the complete LACK of a plan in place of actually fixing something. If you have a plan lets hear it. At least I outlined a PLAN instead of a mindless rant either for or against Kubiak. I didn't say keep him at all costs, there are risks and rewards both long term and short.. I put them out there and told you how I thought the scales balanced out. I don't give a DAMN if he goes or stay, I want good football... Maybe we should bring Reeves back and see if he can finish our climb to respectability... I want a plan, I wish management would say "ok here's the plan" so we can evaluate it, but they don't so we can't. Instead you get blowhards like me trying to come up with a rational plan so you have something to b1tch about.

Mike

Goldensilence
12-09-2009, 08:37 PM
Well, if you're going to be fair in this argument... both DD/DW AND Slaton were surprises that looked a lot like franchise backs until injury/fumblitis... Secondly, take Mario, Ryans, Cushing, or Brown away from this roster... which of them do you take away in order to add your "Franchise" back? Even AO, you can disagree with him as a pick if you want, he was a need position. You have cherry picked one position on a team that had essentially twenty positions at which they MIGHT have had a decent NFL backup starting when Kubiak/Smith got here. That is NOT a hyperbole either. You are complaining that we don't have a Franchise back? As for your "worked out the last 8 years? Had we taken a "franchise back" in year one, we would have Earl Campbell-ed him to death already.

I love when people advocate the complete LACK of a plan in place of actually fixing something. If you have a plan lets hear it. At least I outlined a PLAN instead of a mindless rant either for or against Kubiak. I didn't say keep him at all costs, there are risks and rewards both long term and short.. I put them out there and told you how I thought the scales balanced out. I don't give a DAMN if he goes or stay, I want good football... Maybe we should bring Reeves back and see if he can finish our climb to respectability... I want a plan, I wish management would say "ok here's the plan" so we can evaluate it, but they don't so we can't. Instead you get blowhards like me trying to come up with a rational plan so you have something to b1tch about.

Mike

To be equally fair most of us felt DD and Slaton were small and need/ed someone to help carry the load at RB. That's on both staffs.

I'll keep pointing out with the Barwin pick this year we could've gotten great value for LeSean McCoy or Shonn Green. Instead we got a second year DE that plays backup, though hey the fan boys have already pointed out leads rookie part time players in sacks! Not saying either are franchise at this point, but we'd probably be getting better production atm.

I disagree that A0 was a need pick. If we had wisely chosen Willis, which is who I was hoping for, we could've afforded to go in a different direction this year in the draft as opposed to Cushing.

In 2007 we went after Ahman Green. Instead we could've signed Jamal Lewis or Corey Dillion had been released by the Pats.

2008 when we could've gone for Turner we were already stuck with Ahman Green and oh joy, that's the year we signed Chris Brown.

Do I need to even regurgitate the list of late round draft picks or trade we brought in at RB?

Speaking of hyperbole, nice use of taking a year one RB and Earl Campbell-ing.

Ok advocating a plan. Yours is starting young players and essentially treating the rest of the season like pre-season. Let's take time to re-evaluate players we should've decided on in our pre-season before the season. You're even willing to give Kubiak a pass on going 0-4. Great plan.

Ok here's my plan. Might as well get Caldwell some playing time because the rest of the interior of the OL doesn't look so swell anyway. Cut Chris Brown. See what Foster, Moats, and whomever they want to elevate to the starting roster and see if they make a semblance of a running game.

Diles doesn't excite me, but Adibi didn't impress me during the preseason. But, your right may as well see if he can play. Work him into the lineup.

Start Deljuan Robinson in the place of A0.

Try and work towards finishing the year strong whether or not Kubiak returns. 0-4 shouldn't be acceptable and should be grounds for dismissal the they after the season ends.

Texanmike02
12-09-2009, 09:01 PM
Look I agree on the Turner pickup... The three feathers in my cap are calling Schaub, Turner and Mario before the rest of us. One of the big things I wanted was to go get Turner and Schaub. I felt like we had a great opportunity to solidify both positions. He is really the only back we had a shot to get that wouldn't have changed our personnel situation too much. Going into the off season I felt like we were good until I heard Slaton gained 15 lbs. I still think that was a HUGE mistake on his part. I wanted someone to spell him, and honestly, I'm ok with Chris Brown in that role... but when Slaton had fumbling problems AND was ineffective. But that is spilled milk. If you want to use the next 4 games as a tryout you have two options, tell your coach he is your coach going into next year or fire him now. Nobody is going to take those kinds of risks as they fight for their job... I'm just saying

So we basically disagree on Kubiak's job security, and both have a plan of action that varies slightly.

Mike

GNTLEWOLF
12-10-2009, 03:28 AM
I know this has very little to do with the present discussion, but to all the Keep Kubiak crowd, who believe this team goes to the play-offs for sure next year... The AFC SOUTH gets to play the NFC EAST next season....how many of those games do you all honestly think we win with kubiak as our HC?