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Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 02:39 PM
We've talked about this in a number of threads recently, and never really reached a consensus.

We hear all the time that this team is loaded with talent, but personally I don't see it. I looked at our roster back in May, and I just couldn't see how this team was loaded and ready to make a playoff run. That's why I couldn't vote any higher than 7-9.

I would like for everyone to go through the roster, and rank our players in these basic categories. Then decide if that is really a playoff level team.

Elite: near the very top of their position
Good: Pro Bowl level players
Quality: They belong as starters on a good team
Developing: Young guys who are developing, or just too soon to call a bust or quality+
Role players: one dimensional players who are a liability outside their primary strength
Depth: NFL caliber players who should not be a primary starter on a good team
Poor: Players who are not playing well, and would not win a roster spot on a good team
Ugly: Really bad

players in red were here before Rick Smith.

Elite
Andre Johnson
Owen Daniels
Mario Williams(when healthy)

Good
DeMeco Ryans
Brian Cushing
Matt Schaub

Quality
Zach Diles
Dunta Robinson
Jacques Reeves
Kevin Walter
Eric Winston
Chester Pitts
Vonta Leach

Developing
Amobi Okoye
Duane Brown
Glover Quin
Connor Barwin
Xavier Adibi
Jacoby Jones
James Casey
Steve Slaton
Antoine Caldwell
Brice McCain
Antwaun Molden

Role players/One dimensional
Eugene Wilson(coverage)
Bernard Pollard(run support)
Anthony Hill(blocking)

Depth
Antonio Smith
Kevin Bentley
Joel Dreessen
Chris Myers
Rashad Butler
Ryan Moats
Mike Brisiel
David Anderson
Shaun Cody
Jeff Zgonina
Tim Bulman
Deljuan Robinson


Poor
Andre' Davis
Chris Brown
Glenn Martinez
Nick Ferguson
Tim Jamison
Jesse Nading
Kris Brown
Matt Turk

Ugly
Chris White
Kasey Studdard
John Busing
Dominique Barber
Fred Bennett

Here's where we know we have quality players:

QB Matt Schaub
WR Andre Johnson- Kevin Walter
RB ?
FB Vonta Leach
TE Owen Daniels (Out)
LT ?
LG Pitts (Out)
OC ?
RG ?
RT Winston

RE Mario Williams
NT ?
DT ?
LE ?
Wil Zach Diles
MLB DeMeco Ryans
Sam Brian Crushing
FS ?
SS ?
CB Jacques Reeves - Dunta Robinson

That is a lot of question marks for a team that many expected to be competing for the division crown this year. We've got some players developing to fill them, but they're not quality players yet.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 02:43 PM
no team is "finished" and this team as as much talent as anyone else outside of about 4 teams in this league. You still think 0k0ye is "developing"? Next year is year 4 and his rookie year is still his best season.

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 02:48 PM
no team is "finished" and this team as as much talent as anyone else outside of about 4 teams in this league. You still think 0k0ye is "developing"? Next year is year 4 and his rookie year is still his best season.

Yeah, I think this team has plenty of talent and it's been shown all season long. We've actually got more talent than I thought we did going into the season actually. We're right there with a lot of good teams at this point other than a few. Talent is no longer the huge problem that it once was. If we could have a good off season where we resign some of our productive players and bring in some new talent in FA with a really good draft. Then all we need to do is find us a good HC and we'll be up there with a ton of teams talent wise and close to being amongst the best.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 02:48 PM
no team is "finished" and this team as as much talent as anyone else outside of about 4 teams in this league. You still think 0k0ye is "developing"? Next year is year 4 and his rookie year is still his best season.

There are only a few teams that can say they have 6+ Pro Bowl level players, but we don't have the quality starters to surround them with that an elite team should.

Okoye has been good at times and bad at times. He will blow up a double team one play, then get pushed off the ball on another. With what I've seen out of him, and his age, I still think it's too soon to call him a bust.

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 02:49 PM
There are only a few teams that can say they have 6+ Pro Bowl level players, but we don't have the quality starters to surround them with that an elite team should.

Okoye has been good at times and bad at times. He will blow up a double team one play, then get pushed off the ball on another. With what I've seen out of him, and his age, I still think it's too soon to call him a bust.

3 years now. He's easily a bust when you consider that he was a first rounder. He wasn't a 4th round pick.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 02:50 PM
3 years now. He's easily a bust when you consider that he was a first rounder. He wasn't a 4th round pick.

Feel free to rank him as poor if you would like. He is a '?' either way when you look at the talent.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 02:51 PM
3 years now. He's easily a bust when you consider that he was a first rounder. He wasn't a 4th round pick.

top 10 pick to boot. You pay a premium for these guys.

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 02:53 PM
top 10 pick to boot. You pay a premium for these guys.

Yeah, when you consider the amount of money he got with his rookie contract as well, there is no discussion as to whether he's a bust.

nunusguy
12-07-2009, 02:54 PM
Lot of people like to characterize the Texans as a talented team that underachieves and or chokes when its a big game is on the line.
I dunno 'bout the underachieving or choking part, but I just don't think the team is that talented.

dalemurphy
12-07-2009, 02:56 PM
top 10 pick to boot. You pay a premium for these guys.

Have you noticed how his press clippings have changed? Originally, he was a guy that can get after the passer but will have to improve at the POA. Now, he's a guy that can play the run pretty well but will never be a good pass rusher...

Now, this is the stuff coming from guys like JMcClain but I'm sure the organization is feeding him this kind of stuff. He doesn't even pretend to make those kinds of football judgements on his own, except when he's putting out his "report card".

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 02:58 PM
Lot of people like to characterize the Texans as a talented team that underachieves and or chokes when its a big game is on the line.
I dunno 'bout the underachieving or choking part, but I just don't think the team is that talented.

You wouldn't call them chokers when they've screwed themselves out of multiple games this season from blunders inside the 5, to missed FG kicks, to blown leads, to epic play calling failures? That is the definition of choking. Look up the word in a sports dictionary and you'd see the 2009 Texans team right next to the word. I think the amount of talent on this team has shown itself this season a lot. The lack of leadership is what has hurt them and the lack of urgency at crucial moments. They have plenty of talent now, and a really good off season could really spike this team.

badboy
12-07-2009, 02:58 PM
The issue to me is not our quality players but the others. Schaub goes out for a quarter and RG looks lost. Pitts is out and Studdard is pretty bad. Same on other side when Chris White is in. Our running games is average or below regardless of who is playing. Busing should not be on team and Barber should exit right behind him. We have average corners that are propped up by the strong safety Pollard. We need to fill these holes in draft.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:00 PM
The issue to me is not our quality players but the others. Schaub goes out for a quarter and RG looks lost. Pitts is out and Studdard is pretty bad. Same on other side when Chris White is in. Our running games is average or below regardless of who is playing. Busing should not be on team and Barber should exit right behind him. We have average corners that are propped up by the strong safety Pollard. We need to fill these holes in draft.I'm sure you probably never heard of most of the Colts replacement players before they were coached up and inserted into the Colts lineup when their star players went down.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 03:08 PM
I think the amount of talent on this team has shown itself this season a lot. The lack of leadership is what has hurt them and the lack of urgency at crucial moments. They have plenty of talent now, and a really good off season could really spike this team.

Who do you think all these talented guys are?

That's the whole point of the thread. We always hear "they're really talented", but who are they talking about? I think if you go through the entire roster and give an honest, no BS assessment, you won't be able to find 16 quality players to surround our 6 good/elite players with.

The issue to me is not our quality players but the others. Schaub goes out for a quarter and RG looks lost. Pitts is out and Studdard is pretty bad. Same on other side when Chris White is in. Our running games is average or below regardless of who is playing. Busing should not be on team and Barber should exit right behind him. We have average corners that are propped up by the strong safety Pollard. We need to fill these holes in draft.

Propped up in run support, sure, but he is a serious liability in coverage.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:11 PM
Who do you think all these talented guys are?

That's the whole point of the thread. We always hear "they're really talented", but who are they talking about? I think if you go through the entire roster and give an honest, no BS assessment, you won't be able to find 16 quality players to surround our 6 good/elite players with. from the Froggy one...

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1318918&postcount=20
With Bob Sanders and Marlin Jackson out for the season, and Dwight Freeney missing the contest with an injury, the Colts' defense started no one drafted higher than the third round. Big plays were made by Colts defensive starters Gary Brackett, Daniel Muir, Melvin Bullitt and Jacob Lacey, all of whom were undrafted free agents. Pierre Garçon, out of Division III Mount Union, caught a touchdown pass. Chad Simpson, undrafted out of Division I-AA Morgan State, scored a touchdown, breaking three tackles when Houston players tried to strip the ball. Robert Mathis, a low draft pick out of Division I-AA Alabama A&M, not only stripped Matt Schaub of the ball to set up the game-icing touchdown, he did so while being held by the Moo Cows' offensive line. I don't know what's in the water in Indiana, but it seems to turn unknowns into football players.

disaacks3
12-07-2009, 03:13 PM
Simply put - We're talented enough to have a record better than 5-7 at this point (even accounting for injuries).

Hooston Texan
12-07-2009, 03:16 PM
In their last 26 games (all 12 this year and the last 14 of last year), the Texans have been blown out twice--Ravens last year and the Jets this year. And you could make the argument that neither of those two games were true routs: we were down 19-13 heading into the fourth quarter against Baltimore and the Jet loss was only 24-7. All the other losses came in tight games. If this team had a talent deficiency, we'd be getting blown out much more often.

We may not be at the top of the talent chart at every position, but we are good enough across the board to play with any team in the league. What's sunk the season is the same thing that sunk us the previous two years: we just cannot beat our division rivals. To go 4-14 the last three years against the Jags, Tacks and Colts is terrible for a bad team. For a team that is 17-9 against everyone else over that span, it is unfathomable.

Khari
12-07-2009, 03:18 PM
talented.....but not very disciplined

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2009, 03:19 PM
OK ... I'll play . To me you are either good enough to start for a contender or your not . Here's the guys I think are good enough / talented enough .

QB . Schaub
RB . Slaton as a situation back but need a bread and butter back .
FB . ? Leach ... to one dimensional but that's just me .
LT . Brown
LG . ?
C . ?
RG . ?
RT . Winston
Wr . Johnson / Walter
TE . Daniels

DE . Mario
DT . ?
DT . ?
DE . Smith .... he's been in a SB .
OLB . Cushing
MLB . Ryans
OLB . Diles
CB . Between Quinn , McCain , Dunta , Jack we may have one .
CB . See Above
SS . Pollard
FS . ?

Young up and comers who have a chance .
Caldwell , Barwin , Casey , Moulden , and Adibi . At least they would be claimed off waivers .

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 03:20 PM
from the Froggy one...

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1318918&postcount=20

And?

Who are the Texans quality+ players that make everyone say they are an incredibly talented team?

Some of the best players in the NFL were drafted late or not at all. I don't care if a guy is a street free agent who never played college football. Is he a quality player or not?

ATXtexanfan
12-07-2009, 03:22 PM
I'm with goatcheese on this one. Yes we are talented at sexy positions but not talented in the trenches ( minus williams ). No play making DB's, no pro bowl QB, RB is a liabilty. Fantasy pts don't mean wins.

Carr Bombed
12-07-2009, 03:23 PM
Lot of people like to characterize the Texans as a talented team that underachieves and or chokes when its a big game is on the line.
I dunno 'bout the underachieving or choking part, but I just don't think the team is that talented.

This team has plenty of talent to make the playoffs.... Just look at Jacksonville. Not every playoff team is loaded at every position.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 03:25 PM
OK ... I'll play . To me you are either good enough to start for a contender or your not . Here's the guys I think are good enough / talented enough .

QB . Schaub
RB . Slaton as a situation back but need a bread and butter back .
FB . ? Leach ... to one dimensional but that's just me .
LT . Brown
LG . ?
C . Caldwell
RG . ?
RT . Winston
Wr . Johnson / Walter
TE . Daniels

DE . Mario
DT . ?
DT . ?
DE . Smith .... he's been in a SB .
OLB . Cushing
MLB . Ryans
OLB . Diles
CB . Between Quinn , McCain , Dunta , Jack we may have one .
CB . See Above
SS . Pollard
FS . ?

So you think we're short a starting RB, FB, LG, RG, 2x DT, and a FS.

In your opinion is a team that only has starters for 2/3 of their base positions a talented team?

Jackie Chiles
12-07-2009, 03:27 PM
I'm sure you probably never heard of most of the Colts replacement players before they were coached up and inserted into the Colts lineup when their star players went down.

Almost makes me cry how much better that team is at plugging and playing. I mean Rex winds up fumbling on the one promising drive he leads on a play where he obviously got mixed up. So typical. Then he says:

(on playing for first time in a while) "It is always good to get experience no matter what happens. Now, I feel like I'll be ready to play if Matt (Schaub) can't go."

Too bad you couldn't do your job and be ready the first time.

Scooter
12-07-2009, 03:27 PM
from the Froggy one...

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1318918&postcount=20

until the indianapolis peyton mannings are missing peyton manning, the peyton mannings are a poor example (especially linking bob sanders who's missed more than half of his available games). when you're quarterback is running away with best in history you're able to acquire relative unknowns for very specific duties (namely speed and pass defense), while acquiring key players on offense to continue the perception and reality of forcing unnatural gameplans out of fear. their superbowl season as the worst run defense in the league is exactly that.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:28 PM
So you think we're short a starting RB, FB, LG, RG, 2x DT, and a FS.

In your opinion is a team that only has starters for 2/3 of their base positions a talented team?You are gonna wait an awful long time if you think that they only way for a NFL team to get to the playoffs is with the 1979 Steelers, loaded to the gills. Just peek at last year when the Cardinals went to the big game...or go back to 2007 when the Jags, Redskins, Seahawks and Titans were in the playoffs. None of those teams were more talented than these current Texans teams.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:29 PM
until the indianapolis peyton mannings are missing peyton manning, the peyton mannings are a poor example (especially linking bob sanders who's missed more than half of his available games). when you're quarterback is running away with best in history you're able to acquire relative unknowns for very specific duties (namely speed and pass defense), while acquiring key players on offense to continue the perception and reality of forcing unnatural gameplans out of fear. their superbowl season as the worst run defense in the league is exactly that.
Manning doesn't play D and if you read the article, they didn't start a single player drafted before the 3rd round. One player no matter how good doesn't make a team great in a sport with 22 starters...just ask Dan Marino or John Elway. Hell, if Peyton Manning was all that he would have more than one SB according to this logic. He's been in the league an awful long time to only win one time to be so unstoppable.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 03:31 PM
You are gonna wait an awful long time if you think that they only way for a NFL team to get to the playoffs is with the 1979 Steelers, loaded to the gills. Just peek at last year when the Cardinals went to the big game...or go back to 2007 when the Jags, Redskins, Seahawks and Titans were in the playoffs. None of those teams were more talented than these current Texans teams.

They didn't have the elite players we do, but they had solid, starting caliber players at almost every position, and good players at a lot of others.

We have the pro bowlers to match up with the best teams in the league. Who is their supporting cast?

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:33 PM
They didn't have the elite players we do, but they had solid, starting caliber players at almost every position, and good players at a lot of others.

We have the pro bowlers to match up with the best teams in the league. Who is their supporting cast?
I bet you couldn't name the Colts replacement players without having the net handy to look them up before the season started.

ATXtexanfan
12-07-2009, 03:34 PM
Manning doesn't play D and if you read the article, they didn't start a single player drafted before the 3rd round. One player no matter how good doesn't make a team great in a sport with 22 starters...just ask Dan Marino or John Elway. Hell, if Peyton Manning was all that he would have more than one SB according to this logic. He's been in the league an alwful long time to be so unstoppable.
Manning took matters into his own hands when dungy left, he coaches the O and D, duh

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 03:36 PM
So, since we aren't very talented, does that meant that we are what our record says it is?

badboy
12-07-2009, 03:37 PM
Who do you think all these talented guys are?

That's the whole point of the thread. We always hear "they're really talented", but who are they talking about? I think if you go through the entire roster and give an honest, no BS assessment, you won't be able to find 16 quality players to surround our 6 good/elite players with.



Propped up in run support, sure, but he is a serious liability in coverage.For me a strong safety is to close down the middle up to the scrimmage line. You put a Haden type against the #1 WR and Reeves against #2 WR with your FS(Quin) supporting. Yeah that leaves your #1 CB on an island but that is what he is paid for.

badboy
12-07-2009, 03:39 PM
I'm sure you probably never heard of most of the Colts replacement players before they were coached up and inserted into the Colts lineup when their star players went down.We would have to compare back up to back up, right?

Runner
12-07-2009, 03:40 PM
So, since we aren't very talented, does that meant that we are what our record says it is?

I think this thread should run parallel with the "How is Rick Smith Doing" thread, but I'm afraid the cognitive dissonance would make the server's hard drive crash.

badboy
12-07-2009, 03:41 PM
from the Froggy one...

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1318918&postcount=20Yet the final score and the two games did not convince me Colts are that much better than us.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:42 PM
Yet the final score and the two games did not convince me Colts are that much better than us.That was actually what the link was pointing out.

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 03:42 PM
until the indianapolis peyton mannings are missing peyton manning, the peyton mannings are a poor example (especially linking bob sanders who's missed more than half of his available games). when you're quarterback is running away with best in history you're able to acquire relative unknowns for very specific duties (namely speed and pass defense), while acquiring key players on offense to continue the perception and reality of forcing unnatural gameplans out of fear. their superbowl season as the worst run defense in the league is exactly that.

Are you kidding me, the Colts defense have been awsome at plugging holes for years. They have had this stigma as being this crappy defense from those early years, but that hasn't been the case for like the last 3 seasons. They have been a lot better than what many people have acted like. This year the Colts D has been pretty damn good all year. And like Vinny said, I couldn't tell you about half of their players. THey plug and play as well as anyone. And when they won their SB, Bob Sanders came back in for the post season and they were a very good defense in that post season run. They were really bad in the regular season, but Sanders changed that whole dynamic up that season in that SB run.

wagonhed
12-07-2009, 03:48 PM
I would love to rank the Texans players at every position but I don't think your categories are any good.

More importantly if you do this same analysis on other teams you will find that almost every team in the NFL patches up many of their positions with players who are less than starting quality. You can point to half a dozen positions on the Texans where we have backup level talent in a starting role... but this is common in the NFL, one might even say relatively good.

I think a better way to evaluate our talent at every position would be to use a scale that looks like this:

excellent
very good
above average
average
below average
bad
awful

this would be compared to the average NFL starter at that position. My hunch is that the "average" of starters in the NFL at each position is actually BELOW what we would consider a proper NFL starter. There are 32 starters in the NFL at each position and think of how many of them are bad.

To me the Texans look like this:

QB . very good
RB . below average
FB . very good
LT . average
LG . bad
C . bad
RG . bad
RT . above average
WR1 . excellent
WR2 . above average
TE . excellent (with Daniels)

DE . excellent
DT . below average
DT . bad
DE . average
OLB . excellent
MLB . excellent
OLB . above average
CB . below average
CB . bad
SS . above average
FS . average (Wilson)


To me, that looks like a lot of talent. Being weak in the trenches sucks and we definitely are, so that is a problem. However, I bet there are plenty of winning teams with a lot worse talent situations than we have.

TheRealJoker
12-07-2009, 03:49 PM
It's true, the Texans have a talented team in SOME units. But they are also severely deficient in others.

When I think of a talented team, I think of a team that also has quality depth. I think we have all figured out over the course of the season that while our starters were maybe talented across the board (aside from NT and SS prior to Pollard arriving), once injuries hit a few positions we found out we aren't all that talented.

We currently have the weakest interior OL in the league. Our starting center could've been upgraded last season but we opted to stand pat because we could get by with him at center AS LONG AS THE GUARDS STAYED INTACT. Once the starting guards went down we put in below-average players and then the interior OL REALLY started to look bad.

Our WRs, DEs and LBers are the most talented units on the team. As long as Schaub is in we have a pretty good QB as well...but we all saw what happened if we have to rely on Rex. We are undertalented in other units like RB, DT, safety, OG, and OC; so it more than balances out which results in a mediocre team when we have a mediocre coach.

*I'd also say our CBs are undertalented at the top because we don't have a true # 1 CB. We have # 2 at best CBs in Dunta, Reeves, and Quinn but nobody we can call a # 1.

badboy
12-07-2009, 03:50 PM
I think this thread should run parallel with the "How is Rick Smith Doing" thread, but I'm afraid the cognitive dissonance would make the server's hard drive crash.Hey was that a reflection of my lack of intelligence?:mcnugget:

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 03:51 PM
I bet you couldn't name the Colts replacement players without having the net handy to look them up before the season started.

I bet most people outside of Houston couldn't name anyone on our team besides the 6 I listed as elite or good, much less their backups.

You presumably watch the Texans, so you presumably know who is good and who isn't. Who are the talented players?

The Colts defense has continually gotten worse as the replacements have stepped in. It's not like they just plugged in the new guys and rolled on as a top defense, so I don't know why you keep using this example.

They were top 10 in most catagories early in the season, now they're 17th in total defense, 19th in passing, and 18th in rushing.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:53 PM
I bet most people outside of Houston couldn't name anyone on our team besides the 6 I listed as elite or good, much less their backups.

You presumably watch the Texans, so you presumably know who is good and who isn't. Who are the talented players?

The Colts defense has continually gotten worse as the replacements have stepped in. It's not like they just plugged in the new guys and rolled on as a top defense, so I don't know why you keep using this example.

They were top 10 in most catagories early in the season, now they're 17th in total defense, 19th in passing, and 18th in rushing.

I've noticed most of your arguments are circular arguments.

TheRealJoker
12-07-2009, 03:53 PM
from the Froggy one...

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1318918&postcount=20

Sounds like they have experienced coordinators who know how to develop players? Yet another problem with Kubiak... He gets the "he's a young HC" excuse but he decides to hire unproven coordinators to help supplement his inexperience as a HC.

Not that he's inexperienced at all being a 4th year HC and all...

badboy
12-07-2009, 03:55 PM
I would love to rank the Texans players at every position but I don't think your categories are any good.

More importantly if you do this same analysis on other teams you will find that almost every team in the NFL patches up many of their positions with players who are less than starting quality. You can point to half a dozen positions on the Texans where we have backup level talent in a starting role... but this is common in the NFL, one might even say relatively good.

I think a better way to evaluate our talent at every position would be to use a scale that looks like this:

excellent
very good
above average
average
below average
bad
awful

this would be compared to the average NFL starter at that position. My hunch is that the "average" of starters in the NFL at each position is actually BELOW what we would consider a proper NFL starter. There are 32 starters in the NFL at each position and think of how many of them are bad.

To me the Texans look like this:

QB . very good
RB . below average
FB . very good
LT . average
LG . bad
C . bad
RG . bad
RT . above average
WR1 . excellent
WR2 . above average
TE . excellent (with Daniels)

DE . excellent
DT . below average
DT . bad
DE . average
OLB . excellent
MLB . excellent
OLB . above average
CB . below average
CB . bad
SS . above average
FS . average (Wilson)


To me, that looks like a lot of talent. Being weak in the trenches sucks and we definitely are, so that is a problem. However, I bet there are plenty of winning teams with a lot worse talent situations than we have.This is sort of what I was getting at. A Chester Pitts could help Brown and Myers, but an average Studdard needs help therefore weakening the entire left side. The opposite is true where first round Cushing helps Ryans who can then fudge a bit towards DIles. A great Free Safety would really benefit either DR or Reeves.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 03:58 PM
I've noticed most of your arguments are circular arguments.

I've noticed that you can't actually support your arguments.

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2009, 04:02 PM
So you think we're short a starting RB, FB, LG, RG, 2x DT, and a FS.

In your opinion is a team that only has starters for 2/3 of their base positions a talented team?

No team since the salary cap days has been at least good at each position . I think the Texans are light in the G/C and they want to run . They are light at DT and can't stop the run . Do you need two great guards ... no but one really good one would sure help . Do you need two great DTs ... same as with the Guards ... one really good one would sure help . We also need a shut down corner . That's three vital players that could change this team quickly .

TexCanada
12-07-2009, 04:08 PM
I'm going to attack this in the time saving way: instead of listing the players that are good enough to start I will list the positions that need upgrading.

RG, LG, C - Caldwell can hopefully fill one of these 3, but 2 of them need upgrades
RB - I don't think we need a superstar here, but someone who can compliment Slaton
DT - A big dude to play alongside Okoye
FS - maybe Quin can fill this role?
CB - need a new #1 corner

So I see 7 positions that need upgrading, and a couple of them can possibly be handled by players already on our team. For me, DT and FS are probably the two most important to fix. I believe that the rest of the players on the team are at the very least adequate enough to play on a playoff team.

devo-x
12-07-2009, 04:12 PM
How would you rate our Special Teams players?

Kicker - Kris Brown
Punter - Mat Turk
Punt/Kickoff Returner

JB
12-07-2009, 04:15 PM
How would you rate our Special Teams players?

Kicker - Kris Brown
Punter - Mat Turk
Punt/Kickoff Returner

Bad
Bad
Bad

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 04:18 PM
No team since the salary cap days has been at least good each position .

Nobody has good players at every position, but winning teams generally have nfl caliber starters at most positions, that play their part and support their stars.

The Texans have the star power to make any team envious, but their supporting cast is very thin.

I'm going to attack this in the time saving way: instead of listing the players that are good enough to start I will list the positions that need upgrading.

RG, LG, C - Caldwell can hopefully fill one of these 3, but 2 of them need upgrades
RB - I don't think we need a superstar here, but someone who can compliment Slaton
DT - A big dude to play alongside Okoye
FS - maybe Quin can fill this role?
CB - need a new #1 corner

So I see 7 positions that need upgrading, and a couple of them can possibly be handled by players already on our team. For me, DT and FS are probably the two most important to fix. I believe that the rest of the players on the team are at the very least adequate enough to play on a playoff team.

Is a team with 1 out of every 3 positions lacking a starting caliber player really talented?

How would you rate our Special Teams players?

Kicker - Kris Brown
Punter - Mat Turk
Punt/Kickoff Returner

Kicker, punter, kickoff returner - poor
Punt returner - quality

TexCanada
12-07-2009, 04:22 PM
Is a team with 1 out of every 3 positions lacking a starting caliber player really talented?

I'd say we are pretty close to being really talented. I would say that because we seem to address about 2 positions each off season, and we have a couple of guys who might be able to step up within our organization.

So this year its 7, and hopefully by next season its 4 or 5. That would be pretty talented IMO.

Porky
12-07-2009, 04:25 PM
Take away Manning and I think we stack up pretty darn close overall to the Colts. They are clearly better at QB, and somewhat better on Dline, and Oline imo. I clearly take our LB group. I say it's about even steven at WR, RB, TE and Secondary. Again, not counting Manning who is in another league of his own we may be behind but it's not really far off at all.

I think we have more talent that the team that beat us yesterday, but we once again got outcoached, out muscled and out smarted. They played to their strengths, minimized their mistakes and had a solid game plan. The more talented team lost and is out of the race. The lesser team won and is a wild card favorite. I just think Goatcheese is all wet on this one.

GP
12-07-2009, 04:39 PM
Are you kidding me, the Colts defense have been awsome at plugging holes for years. They have had this stigma as being this crappy defense from those early years, but that hasn't been the case for like the last 3 seasons. They have been a lot better than what many people have acted like. This year the Colts D has been pretty damn good all year. And like Vinny said, I couldn't tell you about half of their players. THey plug and play as well as anyone. And when they won their SB, Bob Sanders came back in for the post season and they were a very good defense in that post season run. They were really bad in the regular season, but Sanders changed that whole dynamic up that season in that SB run.

The Colts defense plays well enough to win because the offense is consistently putting points on the board. Plug in Byron Leftwich at QB, and let's see how good that defense is. It would plunge pretty quickly in overall stats.

If your offense can put points on the board, your defense gets some breaks because other teams are forced to become one-dimensional. We didn't have to go one-dimensional (pass happy) when we played them--Kubiak personally went crazy with the fewer run plays in favor of more pass plays, and it cost us.

Our defense, somehow, has decided to ignore the woeful Texans offense. It is playing as if they are the only players on the team. Frank Bush and those LB'ers are leading their defense, IMO, and it shows on the field.

Our offense loses Owen Daniels and they suddenly can't do anything outside of the lucky break or two that other teams have blessed them with.

This team's offense and defense are heading in opposite directions, its two coaches are also heading in opposite directions.

And this is why it's my opinion that Bob McNair (not me, mind you) just might go with an in-house promotion of Bush as new HC. I know it leaves a bad taste in the mouths of some people, but McNair is a guy who makes the safe bet. Frank Bush is THE safe bet in the midst of all the Cowher talk going on around the league.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 05:03 PM
I'd say we are pretty close to being really talented. I would say that because we seem to address about 2 positions each off season, and we have a couple of guys who might be able to step up within our organization.

So this year its 7, and hopefully by next season its 4 or 5. That would be pretty talented IMO.

I can't call a team with holes at 1 in 3 positions talented. You can scheme around 1 bad player, or a few bellow average players, but when your D-line is Mario Williams and '?' there's not a lot that you can do.

Take away Manning and I think we stack up pretty darn close overall to the Colts. They are clearly better at QB, and somewhat better on Dline, and Oline imo. I clearly take our LB group. I say it's about even steven at WR, RB, TE and Secondary. Again, not counting Manning who is in another league of his own we may be behind but it's not really far off at all.

Their offense, especially their O-line, is more talented, but their defense is about the same after losing Sanders and Jackson. They don't have the same name recognition as the Texans, but they aren't running out fringe NFL talent the way we are either.

I think we have more talent that the team that beat us yesterday, but we once again got outcoached, out muscled and out smarted. They played to their strengths, minimized their mistakes and had a solid game plan. The more talented team lost and is out of the race. The lesser team won and is a wild card favorite. I just think Goatcheese is all wet on this one.

I don't think the Jags are very talented. They look pretty good against teams that lack talent up front(i.e. Texans), but have been blown out by double digits 4 times this year.

Yesterday the difference in the game was the Jags just out fought, out hustled, out played, and most importantly outcoached the Texans.

m5kwatts
12-07-2009, 05:19 PM
If ranking organizations by talent alone the Texans would be top 10 easily.