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View Full Version : 4 years isn't enough.


thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 10:50 AM
I agree there have been some coaching snafus made, I agree that some of those appear to have been stubbornly made again, & again, & again.

I agree that Kubiak isn't the best HC in the league. But I think he has more upside than any KC candidate out there.

I understand not accepting mediocrity, I understand demanding excellence, & I understand, and believe Kubiak needs to feel a little heat.

I'm not going to make any excuses for him, I'm not going to paint our eminant 3rd 8-8 season in a row as a positive...

I'm just going to say I think he has done more good than not, I like what he's doing overall, & I would like to see another year of it, at least.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 10:51 AM
I think he's worn out his welcome, but I'm almost certain that he will be here next year.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 10:51 AM
I don't know when you became such an apologist and excuse farmer but its been pretty bad lately. You even called Chris Myers our best OL and that he was playing well and was one of the best Centers in the league. Your words not mine. That made me question your sanity and now you are calling Kubiak that he has more upside than any HC candidate out there.

I appreciate the sunshine, but don't pee on my head and tell me its raining.

What has Kubiak done to merit such loyalty and such delusion?

Oh and how can 4 years not be enough...that is just ridiculous.

TexanBacker93
12-07-2009, 10:57 AM
Kubiak took this team from the bottom of the league and made it a competitive mediocre team. I can't say this is a good team, though. If you look at the standings right now this team is looking at another top 10 pick. I don't think he can take this team to the next level. This team seems to be destined for 8-8 every year with him at the helm. That's not good enough.

HoustonFrog
12-07-2009, 10:59 AM
If they played a complete game and still came up short yesterday then I could see him being back. But they didn't. In fact it was awful at times and the coaches decisions were big highlights. I think the players are over it. I think Kubes is worn out. I think McNair has to see the landscape and see the amount of vet coaches out there and think now or never. The money in tickets he enjoys might leave with more mediocrity. There are alot of good coaches that weren't fit for HC work. Good people, etc. It isn't a sin. Look at Dave Wanstedt. Found his calling in college. Same with Pete Carroll.

GP
12-07-2009, 11:04 AM
The easy bet is that McNair is as high on Kubiak as TK is. And TK, this is only one of about tow or three times I have disagreed with you. So it's just that, and nothing more "personal" or anything like that.

I don't want him back.

But McNair might bring him back for exactly what opinions you have stated.

Runner
12-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Well TK, I think that it is just as likely as not that Kubiak gets to coach his lame duck year. We have a good chance of seeing what exciting ideas* Kubes can come up with for another year, so you at least will be happy.


*I predict that Kubiak, who can't trust his kicker, inserts Ahman Green (picked up for that needed veteran leadership) into the line-up at fourth and goal from
the eight. He attempts a drop kick after the defense is fooled into not having it's field goal unit on the field to try and block the kick. I'll leave the prediction of the play results to other interested readers.

dalemurphy
12-07-2009, 11:06 AM
I don't know when you became such an apologist and excuse farmer but its been pretty bad lately. You even called Chris Myers our best OL and that he was playing well and was one of the best Centers in the league. Your words not mine. That made me question your sanity and now you are calling Kubiak that he has more upside than any HC candidate out there.

I appreciate the sunshine, but don't pee on my head and tell me its raining.

What has Kubiak done to merit such loyalty and such delusion?

Oh and how can 4 years not be enough...that is just ridiculous.


It's not about loyalty to Kubiak. It's about believing that stability leads to success and upheaval disrupts it.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 11:08 AM
It's not about loyalty to Kubiak. It's about believing that stability leads to success and upheaval disrupts it.

but that has proven to not be the case. how many times does a new head coach come in and change the mindset and direction.

What sort of success and stability has Kubiak gotten us? none. So what is there to really disrupt? There isn't.

Kubiak has failed and giving him another year is not going to change things. In fact, it will just make things worse and continue to dig us a bigger hole.

Face it, Gary just sucks as a Head Coach. He is a decent, not great, OC but a terrible Head Coach. 4 years is enough and to bring him back will hurt the franchise more than you could ever imagine. The Honeymoon Is Over.

HoustonFrog
12-07-2009, 11:10 AM
It's not about loyalty to Kubiak. It's about believing that stability leads to success and upheaval disrupts it.

This motto is dead in the NFL right now. Too many teams turn the corner yearly. Too many teams find the right fit and play smart football. You'd think people would learn that with Carr and the first regime. Sometimes guys just aren't cut out for a HC job. Oh and if you think FAs will jump to sign here now or guys like AJ will be excited about another year, I've got another story.

Scooter
12-07-2009, 11:16 AM
i couldnt agree more. like you tk, i see the flaws (everyone does) ... but unlike so many at this point, the scale of our failures doesnt weigh more heavily than what we've done and what i expect us to do. it's a what have you done for me lately league, especially after a loss (multiplied by consecutive losses), but i for one cant help but see this season as a beginning more than an end.

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 11:21 AM
When a rebuilding team quits improving, then that's enough.

It took 3 years in this case to reach consecutive 8-8 seasons. Now the team is regressing.

4 years is plenty of time to show continuous improvement.

Hookem Horns
12-07-2009, 11:24 AM
The one more year thing is very tired with this organization. Look where it got us with David Carr.

TimeKiller
12-07-2009, 11:24 AM
With how the same mistakes are made over and over again....4 years is most certainly enough. Kubiak will be nothing but damn lucky to coach this team next year.

houstonspartan
12-07-2009, 11:25 AM
Have you taken a look at our record against our division opponents? If not, take a peek at it sometime. It makes for interesting reading. lol.

Scooter
12-07-2009, 11:26 AM
This motto is dead in the NFL right now. Too many teams turn the corner yearly. Too many teams find the right fit and play smart football. You'd think people would learn that with Carr and the first regime. Sometimes guys just aren't cut out for a HC job. Oh and if you think FAs will jump to sign here now or guys like AJ will be excited about another year, I've got another story.

likely the case, but arguably the opposite as a named player seeing a team about to get over the hump much like arizona for so long being a few breaks away. tony gonzales appeared to go to atlanta on this assumption. if we could land a first day name like hampton (PLEASE sign hampton), it'd send an enticing signal around the league that the texans completed the puzzle.

HoustonFrog
12-07-2009, 11:37 AM
likely the case, but arguably the opposite as a named player seeing a team about to get over the hump much like arizona for so long being a few breaks away. tony gonzales appeared to go to atlanta on this assumption. if we could land a first day name like hampton (PLEASE sign hampton), it'd send an enticing signal around the league that the texans completed the puzzle.

Atlanta made the playoffs, had weapons already in place and had gotten over the hump. that is why Gonzales went there. Last season FAs saw what you are talking about and liked it here. Now they will see 3 .500 type seasons and a regression and think there is mediocrity here. The only way Hampton comes here is under a new coach who wants to play some 3-4. JMO. Right now body language says it all and players and people are over this "next year talk."

BigBull17
12-07-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't know when you became such an apologist and excuse farmer but its been pretty bad lately. You even called Chris Myers our best OL and that he was playing well and was one of the best Centers in the league. Your words not mine. That made me question your sanity and now you are calling Kubiak that he has more upside than any HC candidate out there.

I appreciate the sunshine, but don't pee on my head and tell me its raining.

What has Kubiak done to merit such loyalty and such delusion?

Oh and how can 4 years not be enough...that is just ridiculous.

QFT. As I said, if you can't hold a 17 point lead on Indy, and can only muster 3-3 in your division AT BEST, you have no right to keep your job. The only consistant thing is our coach getting out coached.

disaacks3
12-07-2009, 11:59 AM
This motto is dead in the NFL right now. Too many teams turn the corner yearly. Too many teams find the right fit and play smart football. You'd think people would learn that with Carr and the first regime. Sometimes guys just aren't cut out for a HC job. Oh and if you think FAs will jump to sign here now or guys like AJ will be excited about another year, I've got another story. OTOH - I can imagine HC candidates actually WANTING this job after seeing the talent on hand here now.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2009, 12:01 PM
Since Kubiak has been the head coach all but the following have made the playoffs


Bills
Browns (even these dogs managed 10-6)
Raiders
Lions
Rams
49ers
Texans


Teams jump from awful to division winners every year. It is not a big deal to have a single season of relative success in the NFL (maintaining it is much different story). Only the absolute worst franchises in the NFL don't make the playoffs in 4 years.

Porky
12-07-2009, 12:01 PM
Kubes is the offensive equivelent of a combination of Ed Biles and Chuck Studley.

Kubes is a nice guy, and I really hoped it had worked out but he has to go. He needs to be an OC.

Blake
12-07-2009, 12:05 PM
4 years isnt enought???

Atlanta Falcons go from 4-12 to 11-5 with new HC and rookie QB.
Miami Dolphins go from 1-15 to 11-5 with new HC.

And these are just 1 year turnarounds.

And we cant get a winning record in 4 with the talent we have?

Give me a break, Kubiak is done. He has gone 0-4 when we were fighting for the playoffs.

Porky
12-07-2009, 12:12 PM
4 years isnt enought???

Atlanta Falcons go from 4-12 to 11-5 with new HC and rookie QB.
Miami Dolphins go from 1-15 to 11-5 with new HC.

And these are just 1 year turnarounds.

And we cant get a winning record in 4 with the talent we have?

Give me a break, Kubiak is done. He has gone 0-4 when we were fighting for the playoffs.


Exactly. In the most important 4 game stretch in team history, it was epic fail accross the board. He only needed to go 1-3 to hang on to some kind of hope, and heck 2-2 would have put us right in the thick of it.

But, when the chips were down, he made some of the most bone headed decisions since the dawn of the forward pass. And his team is as mentally soft as a marshmellow with the heart of a Hyena, only everyone else is laughing. Sorry TK but that is all on the HC.

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 12:13 PM
I don't know when you became such an apologist and excuse farmer but its been pretty bad lately.

I'm not apologizing for anything Kubiak is guilty of. He's guilty of being a bad head coach. I just think he'll eventually be a damn good head coach.

I think that because of what he has done successfully right here.

Some people can't see all the positives because of what is happens in the last 2 minutes of a game. But if I were McNair, there are certain questions I would be asking myself to decide how this organization & Gary Kubiak's future will play out. W-L record being relevant to only one of the many questions.

You even called Chris Myers our best OL and that he was playing well and was one of the best Centers in the league. Your words not mine.

Did I say one of the best in the league? I might have said one of the best at effectively blocking on the second level or something like that. He's pretty avg in every other aspect of the game.

That made me question your sanity and now you are calling Kubiak that he has more upside than any HC candidate out there.

Take Shanahan for example. I think all his success left him 1st when Elway retired, then when Kubiak left... I think Kubiak leaving was the biggest blow to his success.

I appreciate the sunshine, but don't pee on my head and tell me its raining.

I wouldn't tell you it's rain.

What has Kubiak done to merit such loyalty and such delusion?

Oh and how can 4 years not be enough...that is just ridiculous.

What has Greg Williams done? So far his success is equivalent to Kubiak's success only on the other side of the ball.

Kubiak came in & improved the offense while developing an OC. Maybe as a favor to a friend, maybe as an attemtp to give someone the opportunity he was once afforded... however you want to describe it, I like it. That's good character stuff that we complain is missing from the NFL.

When he got that done, he moved over to the defense, and improved that side as well.

The draft picks have been great, with 1st & second round players making an impact immediately(with the exception of Amobi) & later draft picks improving with time (OD being the exception & contributing like a first rounder from day one).

If we can concede that Frank Bush was a good call on Kubiak, I am very, very, very satisfied with the make-up of our current coaching staff.

& if Greg Williams is a HC candidate this year, it's possible that may be the reason Kubiak didn't look at him last year.

TimeKiller
12-07-2009, 12:13 PM
Can we just fire him now, hire Shanahan as an interim...make him the full time coach next year and then when he chooses his OC...hire Kubiak?

Scooter
12-07-2009, 12:16 PM
4 years isnt enought???

Atlanta Falcons go from 4-12 to 11-5 with new HC and rookie QB.
Miami Dolphins go from 1-15 to 11-5 with new HC.

And these are just 1 year turnarounds.

And we cant get a winning record in 4 with the talent we have?

Give me a break, Kubiak is done. He has gone 0-4 when we were fighting for the playoffs.

and atlanta is at 6-6 in a horrid division a year later.
and miami is at 6-6 in a lesser division a year later, while having the last of the previous generation's great coaches in parcells running the show. miami winning the previous season by suprising everyone with the wildcat and a multitude of veterans.

no, despite our record it's not permitted to ***** about a .500 team being an example of success.

the commonality with both however is that these new coaches came into teams with a fair amount of talent to build up from. neither came into square one ... both were quick fix coaches with immediate impact and subsequent fallout. if we bring in a new coach next season, we'll probably see the same - a boom year and a fall immediately after. kubiak might not be the boom coach, but i'll argue that he'll continue up the ladder.

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 12:20 PM
4 years isnt enought???

Atlanta Falcons go from 4-12 to 11-5 with new HC and rookie QB.
Miami Dolphins go from 1-15 to 11-5 with new HC.

And these are just 1 year turnarounds.

And we cant get a winning record in 4 with the talent we have?

Give me a break, Kubiak is done. He has gone 0-4 when we were fighting for the playoffs.

and a year later the Falcons are 6-6 & the Dolphins are 6-6...

the W-L record is just a short sited way of looking at this.

4Texans
12-07-2009, 12:21 PM
Can we just fire him now, hire Shanahan as an interim...make him the full time coach next year and then when he chooses his OC...hire Kubiak?

The only reason Mike Shanny would ever come to Houston is for him and his wife to visit their son. I don't think he wouldn't touch the Texans if Kubiak is fired. Too much respect there.

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 12:21 PM
and a year later the Falcons are 6-6 & the Dolphins are 6-6...

the W-L record is just a short sited way of looking at this.

They made it to the playoffs. Scoreboard.

beerlover
12-07-2009, 12:23 PM
I think a change now will hurt us more (certainly short term) & nobody, I repeat, NOBODY knows for sure if the next coach would do any better than Kubiak will do if he reamains HC. So McNair should stay the course just as long as the Texans finish strong & show they can learn from their mistakes :turtle:

JB
12-07-2009, 12:29 PM
The only reason Mike Shanny would ever come to Houston is for him and his wife to visit their son. I don't think he wouldn't touch the Texans if Kubiak is fired. Too much respect there.

I do not understand this reasoning at all. If Kubiak has been fired, why would Shanny not want to coach here? Because Kubiak used to work for him? It's not like calling him and saying " hey, if you will come here to coach, then i will fire Gary"

If the job is open, I think he would jump at the chance to come here and could keep his son as the OC.

I personally do not want him to come here.

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 12:29 PM
I think regardless who the coach will be next year, we are going to have a boom year. It will be the year after that, and the year after that, that I'm more concerned with.

This is Kubiak's team. This is a good team. No one will be able to get as much out of this team, as Kubiak will.

I'm saying we should stay the course.

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 12:30 PM
They made it to the playoffs. Scoreboard.

Short sighted.

IlliniJen
12-07-2009, 12:32 PM
I agree there have been some coaching snafus made, I agree that some of those appear to have been stubbornly made again, & again, & again.

I agree that Kubiak isn't the best HC in the league. But I think he has more upside than any KC candidate out there.

I understand not accepting mediocrity, I understand demanding excellence, & I understand, and believe Kubiak needs to feel a little heat.

I'm not going to make any excuses for him, I'm not going to paint our eminant 3rd 8-8 season in a row as a positive...

I'm just going to say I think he has done more good than not, I like what he's doing overall, & I would like to see another year of it, at least.

Holy crap. Are you kidding me?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

This past game was a Kubiak Master Class in Keystone Coppery. There were bone-headed plays called all game, with the HB pass being the cherry on top. He CONSISTENTLY goes for low-percentage "I'm smarterer than you" plays when better decisions could be made, and he's done it in scoring situations. In MUST SCORE situations.

I'll take you back to last year's Oakland game, when he didn't try to punch the ball in with the ball on the one yard line and a TD needed to win. Against OAKLAND. He called, I believe, two or three PASSING plays instead of the smarter play and we lost that game. In true Texans fashion.

It was after that game that I decided, once and for all, that what I had been feeling all last season was in fact correct, and a coaching change needed to be made. That was after LAST season.

But only NOW are people finally catching on. And you're kidding me with your contrarian view. Do you honestly believe Kubiak is GOOD for this team or are you trying to be Richard Justice/Skip Bayless and just say the opposite of reality to create controversy and revel in your self-made publicity?

My points about why a coaching change needed to be made last year still stick this year:

1. Boneheaded game-time decisions.
2. Poor challenges
3. Cannot properly prepare his teams for gameday.
4. Lack of fire/heart of this team starts with the coach.
5. Lackadaisical clock management in crunch time...it shows in the lack of urgency on the field

And this season, Kubiak adds to my list:

1. No trust in letting Schaub audible and change plays.
2. Consistent inability to learn from past mistakes...how many seasons of low-percentage playcalling does he need to learn it DOESN'T WORK?!
3. Attachment to a player like Chris Brown that isn't warranted by any, ANY, proof of on-field ability and accomplishment.

Anyone that is still on the "give Kubiak ONE MORE YEAR" is smoking crack. Like, literally. Smoking the crack rock. Unless you think mediocre, tepid coaching, attitude and preparation is NOT indicative of what the future would hold for another year under Kubiak.

Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is insane. This team and McNair loses my support if Kubiak is back next year. Not that I don't love football and am not a true fan, but because I can't stand behind stupid, moronic, illogical decisions any more than I can allow McNair to treat me like a mouth-breathing die-hard sycophant.

Fire Kubiak and staff. We cannot afford or endure another season of fail when the writing has been on the wall for years...FOR YEARS...that Kubiak is not head coach material. He simply isn't, not for this team.

BigBull17
12-07-2009, 12:35 PM
I think a change now will hurt us more (certainly short term) & nobody, I repeat, NOBODY knows for sure if the next coach would do any better than Kubiak will do if he reamains HC. So McNair should stay the course just as long as the Texans finish strong & show they can learn from their mistakes :turtle:

Thats been the last two years. Finish strong ad wait till next year. Im tired of that mentality. 4 years in, you shouldn't be outcoached game in and game out.

HoustonFrog
12-07-2009, 12:35 PM
and a year later the Falcons are 6-6 & the Dolphins are 6-6...

the W-L record is just a short sited way of looking at this.

They are still building off a playoff year despite massive injuries on both teams this year. Yet the Texans haven't sniffed it. How are they the same? I just think some of you got brainwashed in the early years that it would take 8 years of building and that Carr and all of those "extra year" teams were just a mirage. I honestly thought after last year that people would think..."this has to be it." But somehow the owner and team has done the biggest magic trick in the world...convince part of the fan base that 3 mediocre seasons equals progress despite each of the teams being more talented.

Norg
12-07-2009, 12:38 PM
look at jack del rio and the up and down years he has had in Jaxs

but look at his team right now what 7-5 i think

either way he usually wins 8 games a year no matter what and thats hard to do IMO

i say we keep kubes

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 12:39 PM
and atlanta is at 6-6 in a horrid division a year later.
and miami is at 6-6 in a lesser division a year later, while having the last of the previous generation's great coaches in parcells running the show. miami winning the previous season by suprising everyone with the wildcat and a multitude of veterans.

no, despite our record it's not permitted to ***** about a .500 team being an example of success.

the commonality with both however is that these new coaches came into teams with a fair amount of talent to build up from. neither came into square one ... both were quick fix coaches with immediate impact and subsequent fallout. if we bring in a new coach next season, we'll probably see the same - a boom year and a fall immediately after. kubiak might not be the boom coach, but i'll argue that he'll continue up the ladder.

Miami's division record is 4-2 this year.
The Texans have not improved in the areas that lead to playoffs. This
year was supposed to be THE year.

The Texans are 1-5 in the division in 2009.
They finished 2-4 in 2008.
They finished 1-5 in 2007.
They finished 3-3 in 2006.

So, you could argue that the Texans have REGRESSED in the division under
Kubiak, when your division record is the most important stat to consider
when you want to make the playoffs. I was his staunchest supporter, but
the curtain has dropped on the wizard. Mcnair has a couple heels to click
together come postseason.

TexCanada
12-07-2009, 12:41 PM
If Kubiak was improving as a HC, I would be ok with giving him another year. But he is not getting better as he is still making the same mistakes over and over again. There have been too many games over the past 2 years that he hasn't put his players in the best position to win the game. He is trying to out-coach the other sidelines, and trying to be the hero himself. This team doesn't need a hero as a coach anymore, we simply need a guy who gets his best players on the field, and calls the plays that get them the ball.

GP
12-07-2009, 12:42 PM
look at jack del rio and the up and down years he has had in Jaxs

but look at his team right now what 7-5 i think

either way he usually wins 8 games a year no matter what and thats hard to do IMO

i say we keep kubes

I found myself admiring Del Rio for the first time. Ever.

Good coach. Just trots out his players and lets them try to make plays. Was smart enough to cut bait with the trashy WRs and look at his WR squad now--Looking' pretty good, to be honest.

I think he's better than I thought he was.

BigBull17
12-07-2009, 12:46 PM
This was the year too, Pats, Ravens, Steelers, all fairly weak. And we blew it.

HoustonFrog
12-07-2009, 12:47 PM
look at jack del rio and the up and down years he has had in Jaxs

but look at his team right now what 7-5 i think

either way he usually wins 8 games a year no matter what and thats hard to do IMO

i say we keep kubes

Del Rio had a bad first season and an injury year last year that went south. Besides that he has been above .500 and twice has made the playoffs. This isn't even close to the same. The excuses are getting flimsier. This is the most talented team of the last 3 years yet they aren't peaking, they are regressing and are making the same , if not more msitakes. How is this progress?

4Texans
12-07-2009, 12:49 PM
I do not understand this reasoning at all. If Kubiak has been fired, why would Shanny not want to coach here? Because Kubiak used to work for him? It's not like calling him and saying " hey, if you will come here to coach, then i will fire Gary"

If the job is open, I think he would jump at the chance to come here and could keep his son as the OC.

I personally do not want him to come here.

Personally, I don't want to see him come here either. In part, because I have wanted to see Kubiak succeed. I just don't think Mike would take the job, because of the close relationship he's had with Kubiak over the years. Also, if Kubiak is gone, then Kyle needs to go also. No telling what McNair would work out with Mike if he did offer him the job. I'm tired of the Denver / ZBS scheme's that they've been running, and I don't need to see Mike's version of it, unless he has changed his ways.

On topic, I'm siding with TK. 4 years probably isn't enough time. Go ahead and let Kubiak coach his 5th year as a lame duck, and see what happens. Then if we're still not over the hump, get rid of Kubiak and Smith. I see them as a package deal. Would Kubiak coach as a lame duck, or would he resign??????

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 12:49 PM
Short sighted.

short sighted? cmon tk. youre better than this.

what is better? short sight or no sight.

Kubiak has failed. It's simple arithmetic and is painfully obvious.

Norg
12-07-2009, 12:50 PM
that jack bring a indenty and norm a constant system

thats why we should keep kubes our Offensive is there just needs some o line patch ups


our D is there just needs some patches 2

has it stands right now Bob hasent said anything i think if Kubes wins out here his job is safe

ESAD2-14
12-07-2009, 12:54 PM
In regards to the thread title: yes, it is.

Ckw
12-07-2009, 12:55 PM
I don't know Gary Kubiak, and I have never had a personal conversation with Gary Kubiak. That being said, this is my take on Gary the Head Coach.

I truly believe Gary Kubiak lacks the confidence to take a team that has had a kind of "loser" mentality the way the Texans have had. None of our "franchise players" or "leaders" have ever even sniffed the playoffs, and the fact is I don't think they even know how to win anymore. I see this team as a team full of guys that constantly second guess themselves and truly expect the next big mistake. And it is this type of team that needs a head coach that comes in with a "winners" mentality. The team needs a leader than knows what it's like to lead and knows what it takes to win football games. He has got to inspire confidence in the team and to do this, he needs to be confident in himself.

Once again, I have never spoken to Gary Kubiak, but this is simply my opinion based on what he says in press conferences, what his body language suggests, and simply the way he seems to carry himself as a head coach. I truly don't believe that Gary Kubiak believes in Kubiak the Head Coach. His constant "it's on me" rhetoric suggests that he honestly doesn't believe he is doing his job. The way he hides behind his Denny's menu seems to suggest he doesn't believe he can coach on the fly but that everything has to be scripted and if the script doesn't go as planned, he is done for. And finally, his inability to watch his kicker kick field goals indicates a lack of confidence in his players and essentially a lack of confidence in himself.

Take this for what it's worth, but I truly believe the writing is on the wall. Maybe Gary Kubiak could believe in Kubiak the Head Coach if he were on a team filled with "winners" and thus didn't need to be the guy to lead and inspire his players. Maybe if he had a guy like Brian Dawkins that called team meetings and led his team and inspired his team for him, he could be successful. But the fact is Gary Kubiak isn't on this kind of team and that being said, Kubiak the Head Coach will likely never succeed on a team like ours. It is for this reason that I believe a change must be made. We need to bring in a guy with a "winners" mentality to change the culture and the mindset of this team. It's a long shot, but Bill Cowher sure seems like a good guy to call...

Scooter
12-07-2009, 12:55 PM
Miami's division record is 4-2 this year.
The Texans have not improved in the areas that lead to playoffs. This
year was supposed to be THE year.

The Texans are 1-5 in the division in 2009.
They finished 2-4 in 2008.
They finished 1-5 in 2007.
They finished 3-3 in 2006.

So, you could argue that the Texans have REGRESSED in the division under
Kubiak, when your division record is the most important stat to consider
when you want to make the playoffs. I was his staunchest supporter, but
the curtain has dropped on the wizard. Mcnair has a couple heels to click
together come postseason.

my arguement wasnt for the texans, it was attempting to impose reality on "first year coach playoffs woohoo!". our divisional record has regressed, no homer can argue that.

you're reinforcing our divisional record only seconds what i said about the teams mentioned playing in weak divisions. i dont think we've ever lost to miami, but at 6-6 they're you're example of success? i thought we were tired of .500. miami's next 3 games are against the afc south ... far and away the toughest division in the afc. any arguement for or against can be postponed. for perspective however we're 1-1 against the afc east with 2 games left.

phantom17
12-07-2009, 01:04 PM
I don't know about some of you guys, but another 4 yrs of Kube's Football to me is WAY more than enough! I'm tired of stupid, head scrathin', doofus football! Hell, if I performed my job like Kubiak, I would have been fired from my job a long time ago! Also that incompetent dir. of player personnel, Grier needs to get his arsed canned too! Pappa McNair needs to grow a pair or two & stop wastin' the great fans of Houston & elsewhere- time & money!:roast:

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 01:23 PM
I am having to come to grips that TK may just be a troll.

Here is some stuff he has said about Myers. he says he is our most effective OL. I didn't think anyone would believe it till they saw it with their own eyes, so here is the link.

I am all for optimism and glasses half full, but to call Myers anything other than an abomination at Center is pretty much bullcrap.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1273943&postcount=11 (Thunderkyss' massive homer job for Myers)

Anyone who has watched the Texans play, knows how bad Myers is. How many times do we need to see him thrown around like a rag doll before we wake up to reality.

Myers sucks. plain and simple.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 01:24 PM
I am having to come to grips that TK may just be a troll.

Here is some stuff he has said about Myers. he says he is our most effective OL. I didn't think anyone would believe it till they saw it with their own eyes, so here is the link.

I am all for optimism and glasses half full, but to call Myers anything other than an abomination at Center is pretty much bullcrap.

TKs massive homer job for Chris Myers (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1273943&postcount=11)

Anyone who has watched the Texans play, knows how bad Myers is. How many times do we need to see him thrown around like a rag doll before we wake up to reality. Make up your mind TK. Does he get thrown around like a ragdoll or what? In one sentence, you say he doesn't then the next sentence you admit that he does.

Dude is worst starting Center in football. has been since the day he got here....but Kubiak loves him and he is from Denver, so he is god in cleats.

Myers sucks. plain and simple.

Khari
12-07-2009, 01:26 PM
kubiak has been here for four years? lol....man, i need to pay more attention

Hervoyel
12-07-2009, 01:36 PM
and a year later the Falcons are 6-6 & the Dolphins are 6-6...

the W-L record is just a short sited way of looking at this.

Now wait.....what? :mcnugget:

Porky
12-07-2009, 01:52 PM
I agree with whoever said Grier needs to go. And if you are happy with 8-8 and a bunch of softer than charmin players and nice guys than keep Kubes. This team is mentally soft and physically soft on offense and that ladies and gents falls squarely on the HC. And the HC is a reflection of the owner Mr. McWhipple. It all starts at the top folks. And I wonder if McWhipple even has the nads to hire someone like a Bill Cowher. I think he might be looking to a Tony Dungy type because that is his own personality. At least Dungy has the pedigree, but I'm ready for someone's ass to get chewed and to instill some toughness in this team. I'm tired of watching the Houston Charmins.

houstonspartan
12-07-2009, 01:59 PM
I do not understand this reasoning at all. If Kubiak has been fired, why would Shanny not want to coach here? Because Kubiak used to work for him? It's not like calling him and saying " hey, if you will come here to coach, then i will fire Gary"

If the job is open, I think he would jump at the chance to come here and could keep his son as the OC.

I personally do not want him to come here.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that a person would most likely not take a job their friend is fired from? It's not that complicated.

It's not like Shanny has $10 bucks left in his checking account and needs a gig to pay the bills. The man already has millions, and there are likely to be many openings to pick from.

He is not going to pick the job his buddy was fired from. He's not.

Why is that so hard for people to undertand?

FirstTexansFan
12-07-2009, 02:00 PM
I agree with whoever said Grier needs to go. And if you are happy with 8-8 and a bunch of softer than charmin players and nice guys than keep Kubes. This team is mentally soft and physically soft on offense and that ladies and gents falls squarely on the HC. And the HC is a reflection of the owner Mr. McWhipple. It all starts at the top folks. And I wonder if McWhipple even has the nads to hire someone like a Bill Cowher. I think he might be looking to a Tony Dungy type because that is his own personality. At least Dungy has the pedigree, but I'm ready for someone's ass to get chewed and to instill some toughness in this team. I'm tired of watching the Houston Charmins.

Well until I see YOU wearing pink soap, I can't totally commit... :)

GP
12-07-2009, 02:03 PM
Why is it so hard for people to understand that a person would most likely not take a job their friend is fired from? It's not that complicated.

It's not like Shanny has $10 bucks left in his checking account and needs a gig to pay the bills. The man already has millions, and there are likely to be many openings to pick from.

He is not going to pick the job his buddy was fired from. He's not.

Why is that so hard for people to undertand?

I'm with you.

That's not going to happen. And nobody wants a daddy-son combination, especially since Kyle has stated that he wants to make it on his own.

It won't happen.

WWJD
12-07-2009, 02:07 PM
For anybody on here that pays big bucks to go to the games would you be less inclined to go IF Gary was retained?

the general mood on some of the sports radio in Houston seems to be that some are willing to walk away if the Texans don't make a coaching change; they feel it will be more of the same next year.

Just curious.

FirstTexansFan
12-07-2009, 02:09 PM
For anybody on here that pays big bucks to go to the games would you be less inclined to go IF Gary was retained?

the general mood on some of the sports radio in Houston seems to be that some are willing to walk away if the Texans don't make a coaching change; they feel it will be more of the same next year.

Just curious.

I was looking at becoming a season ticket holder next year, I can say with total honesty, that if McNair decides to keep Kubiak as our head coach, I won't be making that commitment.

houstonspartan
12-07-2009, 02:11 PM
For anybody on here that pays big bucks to go to the games would you be less inclined to go IF Gary was retained?

the general mood on some of the sports radio in Houston seems to be that some are willing to walk away if the Texans don't make a coaching change; they feel it will be more of the same next year.

Just curious.

I'm a season ticket holder, and I'm seriously weighing my options heavily for the very first time.

I know several season ticket holders who are doing the same. One guy I know has been a ticket holder since DAY ONE, and is normally mr rah rah, but he's seriously thinking about ditching it all.

It's kind of sad. When a fan like him is ready to toss in the towel, the Texans are in serious trouble.

WWJD
12-07-2009, 02:20 PM
Ok..two quick replies and both are not good with regards to spending money on the Texans.

I just noticed this am on the radio there were several callers who said they were long time season ticket backers and they wouldn't renew.

I am guessing there are people to pick up the options if people cancel their tickets but I cannot imagine seriously people being excited about the team if they trot Kubiak back out there. What changes?

Surely Mr. McNair is hearing this type of feedback.

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 02:22 PM
If Kubiak was improving as a HC, I would be ok with giving him another year. But he is not getting better as he is still making the same mistakes over and over again. There have been too many games over the past 2 years that he hasn't put his players in the best position to win the game. He is trying to out-coach the other sidelines, and trying to be the hero himself. This team doesn't need a hero as a coach anymore, we simply need a guy who gets his best players on the field, and calls the plays that get them the ball.

Finally a good argument against.

We are a top ten offense.

Were the season to start all over again, we would be at least upper half defense, if not top 10.

Still alot of things to be improved upon, I don't deny that, but I think we are headed in the right direction.

Other than the Tennessee game, & the Jets game, I don't have a real big problem with the play calling, & I honestly think too many people are confusing play calling with the decisions the players make on the field.

Just looking at yesterday's game, had DA held on to the ball, & not coughed it up, had AJ & KDub held on to several balls they dropped, had James Casey(3rd round rookie, I know) made the correct block, had Chris Brown kept the ball & took the loss, or threw it out of bounds, he was on the freak'n sideline already) & several other things, like Grossman being on the same page with AJ, & putting a little less air under a couple of throws...... the play calling was right on.

You don't loose the majority of your games by 7 points or less, because of bad play calling, & it's not like we're asking our players to do anything they are not capable of doing. They simply aren't getting it done, when it counts. IMO, that's part of the natural progression from where we were, to where we want to be.

The last 5 weeks, we've been in position to tie or win every game, despite all the fumbles & interceptions, & bad decisions made by the players on the field.

That's not bad coaching, or game management, or clock management.

That's a stepping stone. & I've got faith in Kubiak, because I've seen this team lay down before, but not in the last 3 & a half years.

beerlover
12-07-2009, 02:24 PM
or - http://popup.lala.com/popup/576742231816077331

Now for ten years we�ve been on our own
And moss grows fat on a rollin� stone,
But that�s not how it used to be.
When the jester sang for the king and queen,
In a coat he borrowed from james dean
And a voice that came from you and me,

Oh, and while the king was looking down,
The jester stole his thorny crown.
The courtroom was adjourned;
No verdict was returned.
And while lennon read a book of marx,
The quartet practiced in the park,
And we sang dirges in the dark
The day the music died.

Helter skelter in a summer swelter.
The birds flew off with a fallout shelter,
Eight miles high and falling fast.
It landed foul on the grass.
The players tried for a forward pass,
With the jester on the sidelines in a cast.

Now the half-time air was sweet perfume
While the sergeants played a marching tune.
We all got up to dance,
Oh, but we never got the chance!
`cause the players tried to take the field;
The marching band refused to yield.
Do you recall what was revealed
The day the music died?

Goldensilence
12-07-2009, 02:25 PM
Finally a good argument against.

We are a top ten offense.

Were the season to start all over again, we would be at least upper half defense, if not top 10.

Still alot of things to be improved upon, I don't deny that, but I think we are headed in the right direction.

Other than the Tennessee game, & the Jets game, I don't have a real big problem with the play calling, & I honestly think too many people are confusing play calling with the decisions the players make on the field.

Just looking at yesterday's game, had DA held on to the ball, & not coughed it up, had AJ & KDub held on to several balls they dropped, had James Casey(3rd round rookie, I know) made the correct block, had Chris Brown kept the ball & took the loss, or threw it out of bounds, he was on the freak'n sideline already) & several other things, like Grossman being on the same page with AJ, & putting a little less air under a couple of throws...... the play calling was right on.

You don't loose the majority of your games by 7 points or less, because of bad play calling, & it's not like we're asking our players to do anything they are not capable of doing. They simply aren't getting it done, when it counts. IMO, that's part of the natural progression from where we were, to where we want to be.

The last 5 weeks, we've been in position to tie or win every game, despite all the fumbles & interceptions, & bad decisions made by the players on the field.

That's not bad coaching, or game management, or clock management.

That's a stepping stone. & I've got faith in Kubiak, because I've seen this team lay down before, but not in the last 3 & a half years.

Bob McNair is that you?

It is on the players and right now you do have a coach.

houstonspartan
12-07-2009, 02:26 PM
Ok..two quick replies and both are not good with regards to spending money on the Texans.

I just noticed this am on the radio there were several callers who said they were long time season ticket backers and they wouldn't renew.

I am guessing there are people to pick up the options if people cancel their tickets but I cannot imagine seriously people being excited about the team if they trot Kubiak back out there. What changes?

Surely Mr. McNair is hearing this type of feedback.


I'm pretty sure he has to be. There are a ton of PSL's already up for grabs. Surely there will be more.

Battle Red Flash
12-07-2009, 03:07 PM
I agree there have been some coaching snafus made, I agree that some of those appear to have been stubbornly made again, & again, & again.

I agree that Kubiak isn't the best HC in the league. But I think he has more upside than any KC candidate out there.

I understand not accepting mediocrity, I understand demanding excellence, & I understand, and believe Kubiak needs to feel a little heat.

I'm just going to say I think he has done more good than not, I like what he's doing overall, & I would like to see another year of it, at least.

Can't agree. Too many coaches turn around worse teams faster than Gary. See Cincy, Atlanta, New Orleans, Arizona. It can be done.

ATXtexanfan
12-07-2009, 03:24 PM
Keep up the good fight Thunderkyss. I hope all ya'll bail on your season tickets so I can relocate. Not saying anything, just saying.

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:26 PM
Keep up the good fight Thunderkyss. I hope all ya'll bail on your season tickets so I can relocate. Not saying anything, just saying.
You will be able to relocate...it's really not 2003 anymore

Porky
12-07-2009, 03:28 PM
Well until I see YOU wearing pink soap, I can't totally commit... :)

Am I good now? :wild:

Hervoyel
12-07-2009, 03:44 PM
I don't just "think" four years is enough time I know it is. I'm as certain of that as I've ever been about anything to do with this team. In the fifth year I'd like to know what "event" is going to take place that suddenly turns all this embarrassing bullshit into delicious candy. What miracle will occur and teach Gary the art of game management and good decision making that has thus far eluded him. I really want to know how anyone could watch this team for four years and genuinely expect to see something different out of them in that magical fifth season.

If you're counting on a Jeff Fisher-ish Super Bowl run following 8-8 for three years straight then consider just how rare that is.

If you think that Kubiak is some kind of modern day Tom Landry who suddenly gets through to his players after five years (it actually took Landry 7) then do you understand how rare he was?

Thinking that Gary Kubiak is going to become Bill Belichick at his next coaching stop and that we'd be mistaken in cutting this budding genius loose too soon is just madness. For every coach who was let go and became a good coach in his next stop there are 5-6 that did a Norv Turner the next time they got the keys to the franchise. Gary's a lot closer to Norv Turner than he is to becoming Bill Belichick or Tom Landry.

But lets assume for a moment that Gary Kubiak does pull out a meaningless four game winning streak, finishes the season 9-7, and Bob McNair gives him one more season to take us over the top. Here's my approach to that.

Zero tolerance.

The start of the 2010 season will be just like every other year and filled with hope of course but the moment Gary starts being "Gary" and the Texans start losing their undisciplined asses toward a .500 record I'm coming down on that S.O.B. like a ton of bricks and so will every lucid Texans fan in existence. If you think this team gags on expectations and the pressure of meaningful games now just wait and see what they play like when the entire world comes crashing down on them every time they screw up. 2010 is destined to be filled with boos and empty seats if Kubiak returns and I don't think it's possible for McNair not to know that. If he brings Kubiak back and Kubiak fails the Texans will be playing in a blacked out and empty stadium before November. You know what that's going to mean?

David Carr improved under Kubiak but he was done here. Not only were the Texans sure that he wasn't their guy but they were also certain that they were out of time with him. He would simply not be tolerated by the Houston fans anymore. This was particularly true following the non-drafting of Vince Young.

Dom Capers was out of time long before the season ended in 2005 and the knowledge that he was destined to be fired, ignored by the players, and reviled by the fans at that stage made his "death march" to the end of the year all the more unbearable. 2005 was a horrible time to be a Texans fan.

I don't think Kubiak is facing that right now but if he comes back next year he's going to be one really stupid call away from going down that road. Just one choke job from his team is all it will take to bring the media here in town and all the people watching down on their heads.

I really hope Bob McNair has learned enough to know when to say "when".

Vinny
12-07-2009, 03:47 PM
I don't just "think" four years is enough time I know it is. I'm as certain of that as I've ever been about anything to do with this team. In the fifth year I'd like to know what "event" is going to take place that suddenly turns all this embarrassing bullshit into delicious candy. What miracle will take place and teach Gary the art of game management and good decision making that has thus far eluded him. I really want to know how anyone could watch this team for four years and genuinely expect to see something different out of them in that magical fifth season.

If you're counting on a Jeff Fisher miracle Super Bowl run following 8-8 for three years straight then consider just how rare that is.

If you think that Kubiak is some kind of modern day Tom Landry who suddenly gets through to his players after five years (it actually took Landry 7) then do you understand how rare he was?

Thinking that Gary Kubiak is going to become Bill Belichick at his next coaching stop and that we'd be mistaken in cutting this budding genius loose too soon is just madness. For every coach who was let go and became a good coach in his next stop there are 5-6 that did a Norv Turner the next time they got the keys to the franchise. Gary's a lot closer to Norv Turner than he is to become Bill Belichick or Tom Landry.

But lets assume for a moment that Gary Kubiak does pull out a meaningless four game winning streak, finished the season 9-7, and Bob McNair gives him one more season to take us over the top. Here's my approach to that.

Zero tolerance.

The start of the 2010 season will be just like every other year and filled with hope of course but the moment Gary starts being "Gary" and the Texans start losing their undisciplined asses toward a .500 record I'm coming down on that S.O.B. like a ton of bricks and so will every lucid Texans fan in existence. If you think this team gags on expectations and the pressure of meaningful games just wait and see what they play like when the entire world comes crashing down on them every time they make a mistake. 2010 is destined to be filled with boos and empty seats if Kubiak returns and I don't think it's possible for McNair not to know that. If he brings Kubiak back and Kubiak fails the Texans will be playing in a blacked out and empty stadium before November. You know what that's going to mean?

David Carr improved under Kubiak but he was done here. Not only were the Texans sure that he wasn't their guy but they were also certain that they were out of time with him. He would simply not be tolerated by the Houston fans anymore. This was particularly true following the non-drafting of Vince Young.

Dom Capers was out of time long before the season ended in 2005 and the knowledge that he was destined to be fired, ignored by the players, and reviled by the fans at that stage made his "death march" to the end of the year all the more unbearable. 2005 was a horrible time to be a Texans fan.

I don't think Kubiak is facing that right now but if he comes back next year he's going to be one really stupid call away from going down that road. Just one choke job from his team is all it will take to bring the media here in town and all the people watching down on their heads.

I really hope Bob McNair has learned enough to know when to say "when".Coach Fisher also had 4 "home" stadiums in 4 consecutive seasons during that 8-8 stretch. The Astrodome, The Liberty (or as I calls it, "the toilet bowl) Bowl, Vanderbilt stadium, and LP Field (formerly known as Adelphia Stadium...fwiw.

sportfan73
12-07-2009, 04:14 PM
I understand not accepting mediocrity, I understand demanding excellence, & I understand, and believe Kubiak needs to feel a little heat.

This is my problem

Where is the heat?
Where is the demanding of excellence?
Where are our players saying this isn't good enough?

The ENTIRE franchise appears to be content with 8-8, everyone except the fanbase. We have the quietest players in the history of professional sports, NOT ONE COMPLAINT ABOUT LOSING?!?!?!

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 04:17 PM
I don't just "think" four years is enough time I know it is. I'm as certain of that as I've ever been about anything to do with this team. In the fifth year I'd like to know what "event" is going to take place that suddenly turns all this embarrassing bullshit into delicious candy. What miracle will occur and teach Gary the art of game management and good decision making that has thus far eluded him. I really want to know how anyone could watch this team for four years and genuinely expect to see something different out of them in that magical fifth season.

If you're counting on a Jeff Fisher-ish Super Bowl run following 8-8 for three years straight then consider just how rare that is.

If you think that Kubiak is some kind of modern day Tom Landry who suddenly gets through to his players after five years (it actually took Landry 7) then do you understand how rare he was?

Thinking that Gary Kubiak is going to become Bill Belichick at his next coaching stop and that we'd be mistaken in cutting this budding genius loose too soon is just madness. For every coach who was let go and became a good coach in his next stop there are 5-6 that did a Norv Turner the next time they got the keys to the franchise. Gary's a lot closer to Norv Turner than he is to becoming Bill Belichick or Tom Landry.

But lets assume for a moment that Gary Kubiak does pull out a meaningless four game winning streak, finishes the season 9-7, and Bob McNair gives him one more season to take us over the top. Here's my approach to that.

Zero tolerance.

The start of the 2010 season will be just like every other year and filled with hope of course but the moment Gary starts being "Gary" and the Texans start losing their undisciplined asses toward a .500 record I'm coming down on that S.O.B. like a ton of bricks and so will every lucid Texans fan in existence. If you think this team gags on expectations and the pressure of meaningful games now just wait and see what they play like when the entire world comes crashing down on them every time they screw up. 2010 is destined to be filled with boos and empty seats if Kubiak returns and I don't think it's possible for McNair not to know that. If he brings Kubiak back and Kubiak fails the Texans will be playing in a blacked out and empty stadium before November. You know what that's going to mean?

David Carr improved under Kubiak but he was done here. Not only were the Texans sure that he wasn't their guy but they were also certain that they were out of time with him. He would simply not be tolerated by the Houston fans anymore. This was particularly true following the non-drafting of Vince Young.

Dom Capers was out of time long before the season ended in 2005 and the knowledge that he was destined to be fired, ignored by the players, and reviled by the fans at that stage made his "death march" to the end of the year all the more unbearable. 2005 was a horrible time to be a Texans fan.

I don't think Kubiak is facing that right now but if he comes back next year he's going to be one really stupid call away from going down that road. Just one choke job from his team is all it will take to bring the media here in town and all the people watching down on their heads.

I really hope Bob McNair has learned enough to know when to say "when".

Hervoyel, you just kicked some ass. I am so sick of the Tom Landry/Bill Belichick comparisons. Do some of these yayhoos even actually believe what is coming out of their mouth/keyboard.

Best Post Ever, Herv. If Kubiak is brought back, it will prove that irregardless of Bob McNair being a classy owner and bringing football back to Houston, Bob is just another stupid loser with a bunch of money. We have already been there and done that, so I hope Bob is smarter than that. I know I am and I know that most of our fanbase is. We all know that Kubiak sucks and will never be anything other than a failed head coach...hopefully Bob sees it too.

can firekubiak.com be far behind? i know someone owns either firegarykubiak.com or firekubiak.com...forgot which one.

KUBIAK SUCKS

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 05:18 PM
Can't agree. Too many coaches turn around worse teams faster than Gary. See Cincy, Atlanta, New Orleans, Arizona. It can be done.

I'm not saying that it can't be done... but it didn't, & we can't go back & do it all over again.

This team is just a mindset away from being something special. We're going to the play-offs next year, wether we change coaches or not. If it's Gary, he'll just be continuing on what he built, if it's another coach, then he'll just be riding on GK's success. What that other coach does in the following years, is what's at stake, & I believe, that I like what would be, if GK continues on his current path.

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 05:19 PM
my arguement wasnt for the texans, it was attempting to impose reality on "first year coach playoffs woohoo!". our divisional record has regressed, no homer can argue that.

you're reinforcing our divisional record only seconds what i said about the teams mentioned playing in weak divisions. i dont think we've ever lost to miami, but at 6-6 they're you're example of success? i thought we were tired of .500. miami's next 3 games are against the afc south ... far and away the toughest division in the afc. any arguement for or against can be postponed. for perspective however we're 1-1 against the afc east with 2 games left.

This argument doesn't fly anymore. The Texans were in position to win
ANY one of its SIX division games in '09. Yet, every opportunity was
squandered to finish 1-5. We beat the Cincinnati Bengals, and they SWEPT
their division, which includes the Steelers and Ravens. They went
6-0 in a division EVERY BIT as tough as ours. If you don't compete in your
division, you WON'T make the playoffs.

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 05:32 PM
This argument doesn't fly anymore. The Texans were in position to win
ANY one of its SIX division games in '09.

I completely agree.

Your coaches job is to get players in a position to win the game. But it's still the players who have to win the game, not the coach.

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 05:33 PM
I don't just "think" four years is enough time I know it is. I'm as certain of that as I've ever been about anything to do with this team. In the fifth year I'd like to know what "event" is going to take place that suddenly turns all this embarrassing bullshit into delicious candy. What miracle will occur and teach Gary the art of game management and good decision making that has thus far eluded him. I really want to know how anyone could watch this team for four years and genuinely expect to see something different out of them in that magical fifth season.

If you're counting on a Jeff Fisher-ish Super Bowl run following 8-8 for three years straight then consider just how rare that is.

If you think that Kubiak is some kind of modern day Tom Landry who suddenly gets through to his players after five years (it actually took Landry 7) then do you understand how rare he was?

Thinking that Gary Kubiak is going to become Bill Belichick at his next coaching stop and that we'd be mistaken in cutting this budding genius loose too soon is just madness. For every coach who was let go and became a good coach in his next stop there are 5-6 that did a Norv Turner the next time they got the keys to the franchise. Gary's a lot closer to Norv Turner than he is to becoming Bill Belichick or Tom Landry.

But lets assume for a moment that Gary Kubiak does pull out a meaningless four game winning streak, finishes the season 9-7, and Bob McNair gives him one more season to take us over the top. Here's my approach to that.

Zero tolerance.

The start of the 2010 season will be just like every other year and filled with hope of course but the moment Gary starts being "Gary" and the Texans start losing their undisciplined asses toward a .500 record I'm coming down on that S.O.B. like a ton of bricks and so will every lucid Texans fan in existence. If you think this team gags on expectations and the pressure of meaningful games now just wait and see what they play like when the entire world comes crashing down on them every time they screw up. 2010 is destined to be filled with boos and empty seats if Kubiak returns and I don't think it's possible for McNair not to know that. If he brings Kubiak back and Kubiak fails the Texans will be playing in a blacked out and empty stadium before November. You know what that's going to mean?

David Carr improved under Kubiak but he was done here. Not only were the Texans sure that he wasn't their guy but they were also certain that they were out of time with him. He would simply not be tolerated by the Houston fans anymore. This was particularly true following the non-drafting of Vince Young.

Dom Capers was out of time long before the season ended in 2005 and the knowledge that he was destined to be fired, ignored by the players, and reviled by the fans at that stage made his "death march" to the end of the year all the more unbearable. 2005 was a horrible time to be a Texans fan.

I don't think Kubiak is facing that right now but if he comes back next year he's going to be one really stupid call away from going down that road. Just one choke job from his team is all it will take to bring the media here in town and all the people watching down on their heads.

I really hope Bob McNair has learned enough to know when to say "when".

Kubiak himself started this trend, on the first game of the 2009 season, to
a packed Reliant Stadium. The fans gave this team four quarters to
show us WHY we should support them the way we do. They were booed
SOUNDLY once the clock read 0:00. Then, Monday Night Football comes to
town, and the entire city makes a holiday for the game. The fans actually
filled their seats HOURS before kickoff, and the house was rockin' PRO TEXANS
all night long. The team lays another egg.

When the Texans miss five tackles on a third-string runningback for the Colts,
who walks it in for a touchdown, the fans begin to emtpy those sets EN
MASSE. I believe 2009 has set the tone of what's to come in 2010 should
Kubiak return. The "HB Option" was just the last straw to break the camel's
back.

mussop
12-07-2009, 05:35 PM
I'm not saying that it can't be done... but it didn't, & we can't go back & do it all over again.

This team is just a mindset away from being something special. We're going to the play-offs next year, wether we change coaches or not. If it's Gary, he'll just be continuing on what he built, if it's another coach, then he'll just be riding on GK's success. What that other coach does in the following years, is what's at stake, & I believe, that I like what would be, if GK continues on his current path.

I started a thread on whether its time to move on. Should of just posted it here. Anyway this what I was trying to get across.

Put the win loss record asside and look at coaching ability, Kubiak has shown no improvement in his four years in that capacity. Has his game preperation gotten better? Has his game decisions gotten better? Has his personell decisions gotten better? Has his clock management gotten better? Has his leadership abilities gotten better? How about his ability to make adjustments in games? Can you honestly say he is a better coach now than he was when he got here?

What is it that makes you think Kubiak has improved as a head coach enough to take this team to the next level?

Ckw
12-07-2009, 05:37 PM
I'm not saying that it can't be done... but it didn't, & we can't go back & do it all over again.

This team is just a mindset away from being something special. We're going to the play-offs next year, wether we change coaches or not. If it's Gary, he'll just be continuing on what he built, if it's another coach, then he'll just be riding on GK's success. What that other coach does in the following years, is what's at stake, & I believe, that I like what would be, if GK continues on his current path.

What exactly has Gary Kubiak done so well to make you defend him as much as you are?

What has he proven in his time as a head coach other than that he shows little confidence in his kicker every time he turns away from the play, that he can't manage the clock to save his life, that he tries to be way too "tricky" with his playcalling, that the offense sucks without OD, and that he can't seem to get his team to play a full game of football?!?

I really would like to know where your love and devotion of Kubiak the Head Coach comes from. I don't think any of us are saying we dislike Gary Kubiak but Kubiak the Head Coach has been a failure so far. We owe him gratitude for taking the team as far as he has (2-14 to 8-8), but 8-8 isn't good enough anymore. With the talent level on this team (and I do believe we have a lot of talent), it's playoffs or bust.

houstonspartan
12-07-2009, 05:37 PM
I don't just "think" four years is enough time I know it is. I'm as certain of that as I've ever been about anything to do with this team. In the fifth year I'd like to know what "event" is going to take place that suddenly turns all this embarrassing bullshit into delicious candy. What miracle will occur and teach Gary the art of game management and good decision making that has thus far eluded him. I really want to know how anyone could watch this team for four years and genuinely expect to see something different out of them in that magical fifth season.

If you're counting on a Jeff Fisher-ish Super Bowl run following 8-8 for three years straight then consider just how rare that is.

If you think that Kubiak is some kind of modern day Tom Landry who suddenly gets through to his players after five years (it actually took Landry 7) then do you understand how rare he was?

Thinking that Gary Kubiak is going to become Bill Belichick at his next coaching stop and that we'd be mistaken in cutting this budding genius loose too soon is just madness. For every coach who was let go and became a good coach in his next stop there are 5-6 that did a Norv Turner the next time they got the keys to the franchise. Gary's a lot closer to Norv Turner than he is to becoming Bill Belichick or Tom Landry.

But lets assume for a moment that Gary Kubiak does pull out a meaningless four game winning streak, finishes the season 9-7, and Bob McNair gives him one more season to take us over the top. Here's my approach to that.

Zero tolerance.

The start of the 2010 season will be just like every other year and filled with hope of course but the moment Gary starts being "Gary" and the Texans start losing their undisciplined asses toward a .500 record I'm coming down on that S.O.B. like a ton of bricks and so will every lucid Texans fan in existence. If you think this team gags on expectations and the pressure of meaningful games now just wait and see what they play like when the entire world comes crashing down on them every time they screw up. 2010 is destined to be filled with boos and empty seats if Kubiak returns and I don't think it's possible for McNair not to know that. If he brings Kubiak back and Kubiak fails the Texans will be playing in a blacked out and empty stadium before November. You know what that's going to mean?

David Carr improved under Kubiak but he was done here. Not only were the Texans sure that he wasn't their guy but they were also certain that they were out of time with him. He would simply not be tolerated by the Houston fans anymore. This was particularly true following the non-drafting of Vince Young.

Dom Capers was out of time long before the season ended in 2005 and the knowledge that he was destined to be fired, ignored by the players, and reviled by the fans at that stage made his "death march" to the end of the year all the more unbearable. 2005 was a horrible time to be a Texans fan.

I don't think Kubiak is facing that right now but if he comes back next year he's going to be one really stupid call away from going down that road. Just one choke job from his team is all it will take to bring the media here in town and all the people watching down on their heads.

I really hope Bob McNair has learned enough to know when to say "when".

I hit the rep button so fast after reading this post it's not even funny.

BRILLIANT.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 05:41 PM
I completely agree.

Your coaches job is to get players in a position to win the game. But it's still the players who have to win the game, not the coach.

the coaches job isn't to get them to a close game and then leave it on the players....that is illogical

the cliche is 'the coaches job is to put their players in a position to be successful' did he do that yesterday? no. he said it himself 'we put Chris in a tough situation there'.

its not 'coach and hope the players pull it out at the end of a close game'

Ckw
12-07-2009, 05:45 PM
I started a thread on whether its time to move on. Should of just posted it here. Anyway this what I was trying to get across.

Put the win loss record asside and look at coaching ability, Kubiak has shown no improvement in his four years in that capacity. Yep

Has his game preperation gotten better? Slightly but for some reason, this team cannot figure out how to play 4 quarters of football.

Has his game decisions gotten better? Not really. It seems like if his script doesn't work, he folds.

Has his personell decisions gotten better? Finally, but it took him WAY too long to can Dick Smith.

Has his clock management gotten better? Compared to his first couple of seasons, yes. Compared to other head coaches, no.

Has his leadership abilities gotten better? I can't say, but the lack of confidence Kubiak seems to possess as a head coach leads me to believe he isn't the effective leader that brings a winning mentality that this team needs.

How about his ability to make adjustments in games? Somewhat. It just seems like it is always one half or another. He may come out one game and play great to start the game but come out flat in the second half. In other games, the team starts out terrible in the first half, but plays exceptional in the second half. Could you consider that making adjustments or simply an inconsistent team that only wants to play one half of football?

Can you honestly say he is a better coach now than he was when he got here? Yes without a doubt. But I don't know if that is good enough to get us where we want to go.

What is it that makes you think Kubiak has improved as a head coach enough to take this team to the next level? I await his response as well.

Great post and rep your way. Answers in bold.

Hervoyel
12-07-2009, 05:46 PM
It was kind of verbose but the gist of it I think is true. Sometimes you just run out of time and I think Gary's hit that point where yeah, he'll make it to the end of the season but I think coming back in 2010 will do more harm than good.

GP
12-07-2009, 05:47 PM
I completely agree.

Your coaches job is to get players in a position to win the game. But it's still the players who have to win the game, not the coach.

Jacoby Jones is the smartest dumb guy on the team.

He skips the meetings and doesn't waste his time.

This coach cannot SCHEME to beat an opposing team. He is arrogant, thinking he can just line up and call HIS plays and beat ANY team with HIS plays.

He buries that face into a Denny's menu, just trying to find that grand old Kubiak playcall that can beat the other team. Meanwhile, opposing coaches like Del Rio and Fisher are standing there WATCHING the game and THINKING about what opportunities exist in the game based on what they are seeing.

Jack Freaking Del Rio has had more turnover on his team than a team could possibly be able to withstand. But yet he has found a way to win. He sure as HELL has found a way to beat us.

But continue to tell us how Gary Kubiak is not responsible. People adopt the habits and the tendencies of their leader(s). They have adopted Gary Kubiak's style of existence, and it has cost EVERYONE.

There are coaches, TK, who would see weaknesses and immediately address them and make sure either (a) it doesn't happen again, or (b) if it did happen again, those who commit the sins are blotted out. Period.

This is not a "kids league."

Double Barrel
12-07-2009, 05:51 PM
I completely agree.

Your coaches job is to get players in a position to win the game. But it's still the players who have to win the game, not the coach.

Who picked the players?

Ultimately, this team is a direct reflection of the head coach. When they fail to pick players that can successfully and consistently run the plays, then these decisions are part of the big picture, as well.

I wish Kubiak was our OC that we could keep for a another HC. I think he could do some great things with this talent if his entire focus was on the job of OC and all he had to worry about is the offense. Some team might have a fantastic new OC on their team next season. Hope it's not a division rival!

But, unfortunately, Kubiak just doesn't seem to have that ability that is required by successful head coaches: inspirational motivation and smart game time decisions.

I have no hard feelings, just like I don't care if Capers is having great success in Green Bay. It's just business, and that being said, Mr. McNair had better focus on the future instead of hoping that the past will not repeat itself.

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 05:53 PM
You gotta love how DelRio's staff took advantage of Busing in the lineup.
A simple run fake, there goes the middle of the field. Two routes in the
endzone, Busing attempts to cover the deep guy, WHO'S ALREADY COVERED
BY REEVES! His job was to take the tightend, but he leaves him wide-ass
open. Busing bites hard on every run fake, and leaves the middle of the
field for a bomb.

No Eugene Wilson = Goodbye defense playing like the #1 defense in the
league.

I doubt we ever take a safety in the first three rounds under Kubiak.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 06:01 PM
You gotta love how DelRio's staff took advantage of Busing in the lineup.
A simple run fake, there goes the middle of the field. Two routes in the
endzone, Busing attempts to cover the deep guy, WHO'S ALREADY COVERED
BY REEVES! His job was to take the tightend, but he leaves him wide-ass
open. Busing bites hard on every run fake, and leaves the middle of the
field for a bomb.

No Eugene Wilson = Goodbye defense playing like the #1 defense in the
league.

I doubt we ever take a safety in the first three rounds under Kubiak.

Busing better not be on our team next year, Kubiak or no Kubiak. Same with Chris Myers.

Just not NFL caliber players if you ask me.

Texan JBZ
12-07-2009, 06:03 PM
Hello everybody. I'm baaaccckkkkk! You're crazy TK. Kubes has to hit the highway running real fast the hell up out of Houston. I like Kubes, but he hasn't been able to get his team over the hump. He's gotta go. Four years is plenty enough. The freaking Broncos lost a Pro-Bowl QB and have a HC around my age, and even they're in the playoff hunt. The Dolphins go from 1-15 to playoff contenders without their best player (Ronnie Brown). Hell, the Texans beat the Saints a couple of seasons ago. The Saints would thrash my poor team right now. Yes, progress has been made but Kubes can't get his team over the hump. That's on him and I'd be real surprised to see him return next season.

gary
12-07-2009, 06:13 PM
It's really eight years not four I know it's just been four since Gary took over but you would think between the two Dom and Gary at the very least a winning season in there somewhere. Right? Maybe I'm wrong.

Ckw
12-07-2009, 06:32 PM
It was kind of verbose but the gist of it I think is true. Sometimes you just run out of time and I think Gary's hit that point where yeah, he'll make it to the end of the season but I think coming back in 2010 will do more harm than good.

Yep. His time is up. I have tried as hard if not harder than anyone to continue supporting Kubiak. He seems like a good guy and is a smart coach. He seems very likeable, and we all owe him for doing as much as he did to bring this team to respectability. But time is up and this was the year to prove something. 9-7 seems extremely unlikely, and our playoff hopes are over.

What so many Kubiak supporters don't understand, IMO, is the problem is the way that we have lost. They want to blame it on the players for not finishing the game. If it happened once, I would agree with them. But at what point do you start blaming the coach for the players consistently failing in big time situations? Something is wrong in that Texans locker room and something has to be done about it. We have shown that this team is built to compete. I just truly believe Kubiak the Head Coach has taken us as far as he possibly can.

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 06:49 PM
I completely agree.

Your coaches job is to get players in a position to win the game. But it's still the players who have to win the game, not the coach.

It's the coach's job to create the template for the mindset the team needs
to have. Leadership starts with the coach. When your team is in a tight
situation, they need their coach to lead them to victory. When that
gamewinning kick is on the line, our leader turns away. When our quarterback
sees a coverage that nullifies the play that was called, our leader says,
"RUN IT ANYWAY!"

This time, Schaub let his frustration slip to the media. AJ, let his frustration
slip as well. Say what you will about Fisher donning a Manning Jersey in
Tennessee, he's involved with EVERY play EVERY minute of EVERY game.

I just don't see that leadership ON THE FIELD. Now, in the meeting room,
they may study well. On the practice field, they may practice well. When
the bullets are flying on Sunday, though, our players are extremely
undisciplined in key situations, and have almost no awareness of the
scenarios they are in, at any given time.

Our coaches need to TEACH THIS SQUAD how to win, and our leader just
makes the wrong calls at the wrong times.

IlliniJen
12-07-2009, 07:27 PM
Finally a good argument against.

We are a top ten offense.

Were the season to start all over again, we would be at least upper half defense, if not top 10.

I have a question for you regarding offensive and defensive rank:

WHO FLIPPIN' CARES?!

And by that I mean a team can be top ranked in tons of categories, but if rank doesn't translate into wins, I couldn't give a flying falafel.

I think the fact that we ARE a top 10 offense and could make an argument our defense has improved and we have a pitiful 5-7 record is indicative that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. And down at Reliant.

Still alot of things to be improved upon, I don't deny that, but I think we are headed in the right direction.

How many more years will constitute "headed in the right direction?" Seriously, Kubiak has shown ZERO improvement in win/loss ratio over the last 3 seasons. That's not improvement. That our offense is top ten but we're still 5-7 means that rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic doesn't mean that the skipper wasn't asleep at the wheel.

I'm going for a record number of cliches and allegories in this post.

Other than the Tennessee game, & the Jets game, I don't have a real big problem with the play calling, & I honestly think too many people are confusing play calling with the decisions the players make on the field.

Did you slip and fall and hit your head? Is your Medic Alert bracelet working? Do we need to send help?

I honestly need to know what about yesterday's game (that you excluded) was good in the play-calling area.

Just looking at yesterday's game, had DA held on to the ball, & not coughed it up, had AJ & KDub held on to several balls they dropped, had James Casey(3rd round rookie, I know) made the correct block, had Chris Brown kept the ball & took the loss, or threw it out of bounds, he was on the freak'n sideline already) & several other things, like Grossman being on the same page with AJ, & putting a little less air under a couple of throws...... the play calling was right on.

Look, if your team has trouble executing, there are two things that need to change, and I put BOTH on the coaching staff:

1. Preparation: We have a lot of talented players making stupid mistakes. Mental errors are correctable, but only if someone chews their butt out and makes them fear for their lives if they make them again.

2. If your players are prone to mental errors and make costly mistakes on the field, then it would be logical to NOT PUT THEM IN A POSITION TO FAIL. And you know what low-percentage plays in key situations like a HB pass does? It sets your players up to fail. Run smart, high-percentage plays. To me, this is a key area of bone-headedness that cannot be stressed enough. Your team doesn't know how to win. Doesn't know how to shut the other team down and dominate them mentally or physically. But you know what your team does know how to do? Screw things up in key situations. Why help them do so by calling HB passes or multiple passes on first and goal at the 1? WHY?!

You don't loose the majority of your games by 7 points or less, because of bad play calling, & it's not like we're asking our players to do anything they are not capable of doing. They simply aren't getting it done, when it counts. IMO, that's part of the natural progression from where we were, to where we want to be.

How is this a different trend from last year? They haven't been "getting it done" for 3 seasons now. I'll give Kubiak a mulligan on his first year.

The last 5 weeks, we've been in position to tie or win every game, despite all the fumbles & interceptions, & bad decisions made by the players on the field.

That's not bad coaching, or game management, or clock management.

That's a stepping stone. & I've got faith in Kubiak, because I've seen this team lay down before, but not in the last 3 & a half years.

You don't mention the other important aspects of coaching that Kubiak has not shown any competence or ability in:

1. Preparation
2. Attitude
3. Toughness
4. Personnel decisions - CHRIS BROWN?!?!?!?! Hitches, please!
5. Making adjustments

There's only so much you can put on the players. If your leader is not making the adjustments and getting his players to mentally check in each and every week and go out there and play with balls on fire, then it's time for a change. And Kubiak is a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice guy. How lovely for him. I bet he'd be a great choice to babysit your kids. But a head football coach is not in his DNA right now, not with this team.

The players love this guy and I'm sure the group hugs after practice, or whatever the hell Kubiak does to get their love, is all fine and well. But do they love him enough to go out there and kill the other team and play with some piss and vinegar?

Hell. No.

Let me repeat that.

HELL. NO.

If football was a contest where the least offensive team won, where likeability and "goshdarnit, aren't they cute when they try?" were factors in winning a championship, then the Texans are right up there as contenders.

There is nothing...AND THE ROCK MEANS NOTHING...on Kubiak's head coaching resume that you can point to and say "this outweighs the mediocre record, the lack of preparation, the 'what the WHAT?!?!' playcalling and lack of heart."

If you like luke-warm coffee, limp handshakes, nougat, beige cubicle farms, mini vans and other things of a tepid, non-descript fashion, then Kubiak is the coach for you.

Kubiak is nougat. Coaching nougat. Boring, airy filler that no one is specifically excited about. No one says, "hey, while we're at the Stop and Rob, let's get some Acme Nougat Bars." No, people want freakin' Twix or Kit Kats or Reeses Peanut Butter Cups. Candy filled with WIN.

Coaching nougat.

MojoMan
12-07-2009, 07:34 PM
I agree there have been some coaching snafus made, I agree that some of those appear to have been stubbornly made again, & again, & again.

I agree that Kubiak isn't the best HC in the league. But I think he has more upside than any KC candidate out there.

I understand not accepting mediocrity, I understand demanding excellence, & I understand, and believe Kubiak needs to feel a little heat.

I'm not going to make any excuses for him, I'm not going to paint our eminant 3rd 8-8 season in a row as a positive...

I'm just going to say I think he has done more good than not, I like what he's doing overall, & I would like to see another year of it, at least.

I think I basically agree with this. If the Texans finish 8-8 or better, Kubiak will return, and rightfully so. But if the Texans finish 7-9 or worse, all bets are off.

To be fair, it is not clear at all that the Texans will finish 8-8. They have to go 3-1 the rest of the way, which will require a victory over either New England (7-5), or on the road at Miami (6-6). The Texans are not going to be favored to win either of these games.

IlliniJen
12-07-2009, 07:55 PM
I think I basically agree with this. If the Texans finish 8-8 or better, Kubiak will return, and rightfully so. But if the Texans finish 7-9 or worse, all bets are off.

To be fair, it is not clear at all that the Texans will finish 8-8. They have to go 3-1 the rest of the way, which will require a victory over either New England (7-5), or on the road at Miami (6-6). The Texans are not going to be favored to win either of these games.

What is the HUGE difference between 8-8 and 7-9 that would mean one says we keep Kubiak and the other says we fire him?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Because this makes no sense to me. 7-9 is a losing season, but 8-8 is not TECHNICALLY a losing season in name only. It's still indicative of a trend of mediocrity. There are NO SIGNS that another year of Kubiak would be any different. None whatsoever. But people want to get kicked in the jimmy and say "thank you sir, may I have another?"

No friends, not me.

TexCanada
12-07-2009, 08:05 PM
What is the HUGE difference between 8-8 and 7-9 that would mean one says we keep Kubiak and the other says we fire him?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Because this makes no sense to me. 7-9 is a losing season, but 8-8 is not TECHNICALLY a losing season in name only. It's still indicative of a trend of mediocrity. There are NO SIGNS that another year of Kubiak would be any different. None whatsoever. But people want to get kicked in the jimmy and say "thank you sir, may I have another?"

No friends, not me.

Agreed. My standards are higher than they were 2 or 3 years ago, so now a losing season to me is not making playoffs. I appreciate that Kubiak has made us a better team, but this team has peaked under him. This organization is stale right now and it needs a shake-up.

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 08:07 PM
Hello everybody. I'm baaaccckkkkk! You're crazy TK. Kubes has to hit the highway running real fast the hell up out of Houston. I like Kubes, but he hasn't been able to get his team over the hump. He's gotta go. Four years is plenty enough. The freaking Broncos lost a Pro-Bowl QB and have a HC around my age, and even they're in the playoff hunt. The Dolphins go from 1-15 to playoff contenders without their best player (Ronnie Brown). Hell, the Texans beat the Saints a couple of seasons ago. The Saints would thrash my poor team right now. Yes, progress has been made but Kubes can't get his team over the hump. That's on him and I'd be real surprised to see him return next season.

Good post.... good points.

Thorn
12-07-2009, 08:24 PM
I'm hoping we have a new coach next year. If not, I'll make a new batch of koolaid next spring and start over just like I always do. They've been fooling me for over fourty years now anyway, what do I know?

houstonspartan
12-07-2009, 08:25 PM
What is the HUGE difference between 8-8 and 7-9 that would mean one says we keep Kubiak and the other says we fire him?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Because this makes no sense to me. 7-9 is a losing season, but 8-8 is not TECHNICALLY a losing season in name only. It's still indicative of a trend of mediocrity. There are NO SIGNS that another year of Kubiak would be any different. None whatsoever. But people want to get kicked in the jimmy and say "thank you sir, may I have another?"

No friends, not me.

Exactly. 8-8 is not a success. It is where we were last year. And, we were supposed to be much, much better this year, because all the pieces were in place.

I still can't freaking believe we had a bye week right before an IMPORTANT division game stretch, and we came out and blew it. I just can't believe it.

MojoMan
12-07-2009, 08:34 PM
What is the HUGE difference between 8-8 and 7-9 that would mean one says we keep Kubiak and the other says we fire him?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Because this makes no sense to me. 7-9 is a losing season, but 8-8 is not TECHNICALLY a losing season in name only. It's still indicative of a trend of mediocrity. There are NO SIGNS that another year of Kubiak would be any different. None whatsoever. But people want to get kicked in the jimmy and say "thank you sir, may I have another?"

No friends, not me.

Since you do not have a "jimmy," I do not know much authority you can honestly expect to carry on this topic.

:)

Seriously though, the Texans were looking for a head coach when they hired this one. Most Texans fans were wildly excited about Capers and Kubiak before they were hired. So, who is going to be the next guy? If the management of the Texans are confident that they will be able to hire a new coach who makes the Texans better in both the short term and the long term, then they should pull the trigger and get it done.

In this sense, the head coach position is not any different than upgrading the RB or NT positions, except that you do not get to try out five or six of guys in training camp for the job, and then keep three on your depth chart to open the season. You have to pick one head coach and stick with them for at least a couple of years no matter what happens, and probably more like three or four years. This makes the decision worthy of a much more methodical, cautious and cool headed approach than what is being counseled by TexansTalk posters here in this thread.

So, looking at it that way, the team record should not be the sole driving factor behind this sort of a decision. It is not solely a question of 8-8 or 7-9. If Bob McNair and Texan's management believe that Kubiak can take the team to the next level, they should stick with him, regardless of what the fans say or how animated they become. If Texan's management believes the Texans have maxed out under Kubiak, AND that they can hire someone better suited to take the Texans up to the next level, then they should certainly do it. However, that is a determination they will almost certainly make after the season is over.

mussop
12-07-2009, 08:51 PM
Since you do not have a "jimmy," I do not know much authority you can honestly expect to carry on this topic.

:)

Seriously though, the Texans were looking for a head coach when they hired this one. Most Texans fans were wildly excited about Capers and Kubiak before they were hired. So, who is going to be the next guy? If the management of the Texans are confident that they will be able to hire a new coach who makes the Texans better in both the short term and the long term, then they should pull the trigger and get it done.

In this sense, the head coach position is not any different than upgrading the RB or NT positions, except that you do not get to try out five or six of guys in training camp for the job, and then keep three on your depth chart to open the season. You have to pick one head coach and stick with them for at least a couple of years no matter what happens, and probably more like three or four years. This makes the decision worthy of a much more methodical, cautious and cool headed approach than what is being counseled by TexansTalk posters here in this thread.

So, looking at it that way, the team record should not be the sole driving factor behind this sort of a decision. It is not solely a question of 8-8 or 7-9. If Bob McNair and Texan's management believe that Kubiak can take the team to the next level, they should stick with him, regardless of what the fans say or how animated they become. If Texan's management believes the Texans have maxed out under Kubiak, AND that they can hire someone better suited to take the Texans up to the next level, then they should certainly do it. However, that is a determination they will almost certainly make after the season is over.



Wow brilliant deduction Sherlock. Ok i'll ask you since TK wont answer.

Put the win loss record asside and look at coaching ability, Kubiak has shown no improvement in his four years in that capacity. Has his game preperation gotten better? Has his game decisions gotten better? Has his personell decisions gotten better? Has his clock management gotten better? Has his leadership abilities gotten better? How about his ability to make adjustments in games? Can you honestly say he is a better coach now than he was when he got here?

What is it that makes you think Kubiak has improved as a head coach enough to take this team to the next level?

thunderkyss
12-07-2009, 09:07 PM
Seriously though, the Texans were looking for a head coach when they hired this one.

In this sense, the head coach position is not any different than upgrading the RB or NT positions

So, looking at it that way, the team record should not be the sole driving factor behind this sort of a decision. It is not solely a question of 8-8 or 7-9.

If Bob McNair and Texan's management believe that Kubiak can take the team to the next level, they should stick with him, regardless of what the fans say or how animated they become. If Texan's management believes the Texans have maxed out under Kubiak, AND that they can hire someone better suited to take the Texans up to the next level, then they should certainly do it. However, that is a determination they will almost certainly make after the season is over.

& when you speak of the Texans Management, who exactly are you thinking about? Rick Smith? & Bob McNair?

Rick Smith got his job because of Gary Kubiak. I can't imagine Rick giving Gary the axe.

I agree the W-L record cannot be the sole gauge of the decision that needs to be made. They had goals to start the season, they would have to see how they have progressed against those goals, talk about what went right, & what went wrong, talk about what adjustments would be made going into the future.

& if Bob McNair doesn't beleive Gary can do what he says he can do, then it would be time for Gary to leave.

I think Gary can sit down with any football guy, explain to him what he wanted to accomplish this season. Show him what we were doing at the beginnig of the season, with film. Then show him on film what we are doing now.

The progress this team has made, in the way they play, IMHO is good enough to keep him for another year.

All the questionable calls, & his ability to instill fire into the players is another issue, one that needs to be addressed, but I don't believe reason enough to get rid of him.

I understand there are several examples of New head coaches who were able to turn a franchise in less time than what Kubiak has had.

But there are several New Coaches who have not.

I am confident Kubiak will get it done in 2010. Like I said, I believe in what he has been doing & next year would be a continuation of that.

We're rolling the dice with a new coach...

How many of you won't give the new coach 2010? Or are we going to expect the new coach to get us to the play offs in 2010?

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 09:13 PM
'06 3-3
'07 1-5
'08 2-4
'09 1-5

Those are our division records for the last four years. We just can't beat
teams who see our cute offense twice a year. Do you see improvement in
that record?

Let's look at another set of numbers:
'06 3-7
'07 7-3
'08 6-4
'09 4-2 (so far)
These are Kubiak's records against the rest of the league during the same span.

You see. Kubiak's regime has excelled at beating every other team EXCEPT
those we need to beat to get into postseason. It's the most beautifully
deceptive thing i've ever seen! Beat everybody else, get stomped by
your division year in, year out. At least we'll look good losing!! Sunday,
against the Colts, dominate them on both sides of the ball, pick off
Manning, sack on Manning, cause a fumble, blow up Joseph Addai, do
EVERYTHING right EXCEPT WIN THE FREAKING GAME!!

That game was a microcosm of what the gallons of Kubiak Kool-Aid I've been
downing had blinded me to. I'm switching to LIPTON TEA until he gets
fired.

IlliniJen
12-07-2009, 09:15 PM
You know when you were younger and your sibling would take you by the wrist and make you hit yourself in the face?

And then they'd say "why are you punching yourself in the face?!" and laugh?

Yeah, that's what this thread is like.

Comanche
12-07-2009, 09:52 PM
my thoughts exactly! well said. haha

OzzO
12-07-2009, 09:58 PM
'06 3-3
'07 1-5
'08 2-4
'09 1-5

Those are our division records for the last four years. We just can't beat
teams who see our cute offense twice a year. Do you see improvement in
that record?

Let's look at another set of numbers:
'06 3-7
'07 7-3
'08 6-4
'09 4-2 (so far)
These are Kubiak's records against the rest of the league during the same span.
....

... and I don't know if I recall correctly, but I think one of the sports stations mentioned out of those remaining wins, 5 (or maybe it was 7) of those were aginst teams with winning records.

MojoMan
12-07-2009, 10:03 PM
Wow brilliant deduction Sherlock. Ok i'll ask you since TK wont answer.

Put the win loss record asside and look at coaching ability, Kubiak has shown no improvement in his four years in that capacity. Has his game preperation gotten better? Has his game decisions gotten better? Has his personell decisions gotten better? Has his clock management gotten better? Has his leadership abilities gotten better? How about his ability to make adjustments in games? Can you honestly say he is a better coach now than he was when he got here?

What is it that makes you think Kubiak has improved as a head coach enough to take this team to the next level?

It is my sense that this team has gotten better on both sides of the ball, and on special teams since Kubiak became head coach. Just this year, we are finally seeing the defense turning the corner. I have no problem with the progress of the Texans, taken as a whole, under Kubiak up to this point.

But what is the Texan's performance during the current season telling us about Kubiak's prospects for taking this franchise to the next level over the remainder of this season and during the next year or two? That is the big question, and like Thunderkyss, it is my sense that this is a difficult question that is worthy of a better and more thoughtful answer than what I am hearing from most of the posters in this thread. Which to my ears sounds something like this:

'The Texans have lost four in a row. As a fan, my patience is gone and I am ready to blow my stack over here. Fire the coach! A sacrificial offering is required to satiate my wrath! Do something! My hope is gone, so we must have change! Case closed!'

Most of you guys are being too emotional. Maybe it will be time for Kubiak to go after this season. I have not insisted otherwise at any point. But firing Kubiak just because fans are upset and calling for his head is a profoundly bad idea. Fortunately, cooler heads are likely to prevail.

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 11:31 PM
It is my sense that this team has gotten better on both sides of the ball, and on special teams since Kubiak became head coach. Just this year, we are finally seeing the defense turning the corner. I have no problem with the progress of the Texans, taken as a whole, under Kubiak up to this point.

But what is the Texan's performance during the current season telling us about Kubiak's prospects for taking this franchise to the next level over the remainder of this season and during the next year or two? That is the big question, and like Thunderkyss, it is my sense that this is a difficult question that is worthy of a better and more thoughtful answer than what I am hearing from most of the posters in this thread. Which to my ears sounds something like this:

'The Texans have lost four in a row. As a fan, my patience is gone and I am ready to blow my stack over here. Fire the coach! A sacrificial offering is required to satiate my wrath! Do something! My hope is gone, so we must have change! Case closed!'

Most of you guys are being too emotional. Maybe it will be time for Kubiak to go after this season. I have not insisted otherwise at any point. But firing Kubiak just because fans are upset and calling for his head is a profoundly bad idea. Fortunately, cooler heads are likely to prevail.


'06 3-3
'07 1-5
'08 2-4
'09 1-5

Those are our division records for the last four years. We just can't beat
teams who see our cute offense twice a year. Do you see improvement in
that record?

Let's look at another set of numbers:
'06 3-7
'07 7-3
'08 6-4
'09 4-2 (so far)
These are Kubiak's records against the rest of the league during the same span.


I really wish I WERE being emotional. These numbers aren't emotion, they
are cold hard FACT. This team has made ZERO strides in the last four years
towards winning IN the AFC South. This is the best Texans' team we've
ever had, yet we have finished 1-5 in the division AGAIN! How are
we going to make the playoffs in spite of consistent futility in our own
division? Where has our coach shown us we are moving towards winning
and competing in our own division? We've lost almost every game in style,
and the one game we DID win, we spotted the Titans a 21-7 lead.

Losing in style is not where I want to be anymore. I demand more from this
franchise, and so should you.

Norg
12-07-2009, 11:38 PM
if we fire kubes we are in for another 2 years of dysmal seasons maybe even 6-10 seasons

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 11:51 PM
if we fire kubes we are in for another 2 years of dysmal seasons maybe even 6-10 seasons

Nah...

You see...

The next coach will actually run the ball on 1st and goal at the 1-yardline.
He won't throw it three times like Kubiak did against the Raiders last year.

The next coach will actually try to throw a fade into the endzone on 1st and
goal at the 7-yardline to Andre Johnson. You know, the guy Kubiak removes
from the game in such instances?

The next coach will actually look for NFL caliber players to man the interior
of our offensive line, unlike Kubiak, who shows amazing loyalty to a 290 pound
center who gets tossed around like a ragdoll, or the son of his former
team mate who tries real hard, but has no talent at all. He won't leave
an All-SEC center on the bench, and sub him for a guy who false starts
on 4th and 3, and occasionally pisses his pants on purpose during games.

You want to win games? Give the ball to your playmakers. We now have
a ton of them, and for some reason, our current coach thinks that playmakers
are decoys. Let's let our 3rd string runningback, who fumbled on the
1 yardline, couldn't get a yard in 3 tries tie another game, who gains all
of 7 yards on 5 carries, attempt to throw a touchdown pass on 1st and
goal at the 5.

Yeah. Our next coach will be dumber than our current one. With the most
talented roster we've ever had, he'll give the ball to our playmakers even less
than our current coach does.

Riiiiiiight.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 12:11 AM
Sunday,
against the Colts, dominate them on both sides of the ball, pick off
Manning, sack on Manning, cause a fumble, blow up Joseph Addai, do
EVERYTHING right EXCEPT WIN THE FREAKING GAME!!

That game was a microcosm of what the gallons of Kubiak Kool-Aid I've been
downing had blinded me to. I'm switching to LIPTON TEA until he gets
fired.

good post. The numbers you put together, & your comments on those numbers, good post.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 12:21 AM
Wow brilliant deduction Sherlock. Ok i'll ask you since TK wont answer.

I didn't quote you, but I specifically stated in a couple of posts in this thread, & once in another thread, why I think Kubiak should stay.

dalemurphy
12-08-2009, 12:29 AM
'06 3-3
'07 1-5
'08 2-4
'09 1-5

Those are our division records for the last four years. We just can't beat
teams who see our cute offense twice a year. Do you see improvement in
that record?

Let's look at another set of numbers:
'06 3-7
'07 7-3
'08 6-4
'09 4-2 (so far)
These are Kubiak's records against the rest of the league during the same span.

You see. Kubiak's regime has excelled at beating every other team EXCEPT
those we need to beat to get into postseason. It's the most beautifully
deceptive thing i've ever seen! Beat everybody else, get stomped by
your division year in, year out. At least we'll look good losing!! Sunday,
against the Colts, dominate them on both sides of the ball, pick off
Manning, sack on Manning, cause a fumble, blow up Joseph Addai, do
EVERYTHING right EXCEPT WIN THE FREAKING GAME!!

That game was a microcosm of what the gallons of Kubiak Kool-Aid I've been
downing had blinded me to. I'm switching to LIPTON TEA until he gets
fired.


another way to look at those numbers is to see how difficult a division it is.

DexmanC
12-08-2009, 12:49 AM
another way to look at those numbers is to see how difficult a division it is.

Difficult?
It has the Jags who were blown off the field by the 49ers and Cardinals.
It has the Titans who were destroyed by the Colts, and dang near every
other team on their schedule.
It has the Colts, who you scored 17 unanswered points on in 3 consecutive
games.

Is it too much to ask, that you win 3 of those 6 games? Hell. The Bengals
SWEPT the Steelers, Ravens, AND Browns, and we were able to beat them.

So. is winning 3 of those 6 games a year too high of a bar to set? Even
the 6-6 Dolphins finished division play at 4-2 with the Jets, Patriots and
Bills in their division. Just go 3-3. There's still no excuse. I've already
shown you how this coach has led this team to go 17-9 (last 3 seasons) against everyone
else, but only 3-14 (last 3 seasons) in the AFC South.

It's a tough division, but it ain't THAT hard!

houstonspartan
12-08-2009, 12:56 AM
Difficult?
It has the Jags who were blown off the field by the 49ers and Cardinals.
It has the Titans who were destroyed by the Colts, and dang near every
other team on their schedule.
It has the Colts, who you scored 17 unanswered points on in 3 consecutive
games.

Is it too much to ask, that you win 3 of those 6 games? Hell. The Bengals
SWEPT the Steelers, Ravens, AND Browns, and we were able to beat them.

So. is winning 3 of those 6 games a year too high of a bar to set? Even
the 6-6 Dolphins finished division play at 4-2 with the Jets, Patriots and
Bills in their division. Just go 3-3. There's still no excuse. I've already
shown you how this coach has led this team to go 17-9 (last 3 seasons) against everyone
else, but only 3-14 (last 3 seasons) in the AFC South.

It's a tough division, but it ain't THAT hard!

Damn, you know how to change your tune quickly don't you? LOL.

houstonspartan
12-08-2009, 01:00 AM
It is my sense that this team has gotten better on both sides of the ball, and on special teams since Kubiak became head coach. Just this year, we are finally seeing the defense turning the corner. I have no problem with the progress of the Texans, taken as a whole, under Kubiak up to this point.

But what is the Texan's performance during the current season telling us about Kubiak's prospects for taking this franchise to the next level over the remainder of this season and during the next year or two? That is the big question, and like Thunderkyss, it is my sense that this is a difficult question that is worthy of a better and more thoughtful answer than what I am hearing from most of the posters in this thread. Which to my ears sounds something like this:

'The Texans have lost four in a row. As a fan, my patience is gone and I am ready to blow my stack over here. Fire the coach! A sacrificial offering is required to satiate my wrath! Do something! My hope is gone, so we must have change! Case closed!'

Most of you guys are being too emotional. Maybe it will be time for Kubiak to go after this season. I have not insisted otherwise at any point. But firing Kubiak just because fans are upset and calling for his head is a profoundly bad idea. Fortunately, cooler heads are likely to prevail.


You can't be serious. Being emotional would say: "Kubiak doesn't look at field goals. Fire him!"

No one is saying that. In fact, we're being very logical. There's no emotion at all. The numbers speak for themselves.

DexmanC
12-08-2009, 01:04 AM
Damn, you know how to change your tune quickly don't you? LOL.

I didn't see the light, until I started looking past 8-8. When I took a closer
look, I was shocked at what I saw. On the surface 8-8 ain't so bad.
7-17 divsional play in the last three years is horrific.

dalemurphy
12-08-2009, 01:04 AM
Difficult?
It has the Jags who were blown off the field by the 49ers and Cardinals.
It has the Titans who were destroyed by the Colts, and dang near every
other team on their schedule.
It has the Colts, who you scored 17 unanswered points on in 3 consecutive
games.

Is it too much to ask, that you win 3 of those 6 games? Hell. The Bengals
SWEPT the Steelers, Ravens, AND Browns, and we were able to beat them.

So. is winning 3 of those 6 games a year too high of a bar to set? Even
the 6-6 Dolphins finished division play at 4-2 with the Jets, Patriots and
Bills in their division. Just go 3-3. There's still no excuse. I've already
shown you how this coach has led this team to go 17-9 (last 3 seasons) against everyone
else, but only 3-14 (last 3 seasons) in the AFC South.

It's a tough division, but it ain't THAT hard!

Dexman, I'm not excusing the underperfomance of the past month. However, I'm looking for a little perspective. Believe me, I'm very frustrated with our inability to finish off these lesser teams- the Colts included! However, I'm also very encouraged that I now watch this team play a 10-0 Colts team and am furious that we don't dominate them for 60 minutes.

My point is only that if you were to plug this team into the NFC West in place of Arizona then it could be the team that nobody believed in yet strung a couple good games together and reached the Superbowl. I would think two games a season versus Seattle, St. Louis, and SF would help this young team gain confidence and learn how to finish and put teams away.

DexmanC
12-08-2009, 01:13 AM
Dale. This team has not put 60 minutes of ball together ALL YEAR. I gave
'em a pass for as long as I could. 1-5 in the division is indicative of how
they've been playing ALL YEAR. Game one against the Jets was an
abomination. It's also inexcusable, and a clear view into the lack of
preparation this team has had going into the season. The lack of situational
awareness has burned them in every loss. It seems they took a sigh
after getting their record to 5-3, but for some reason, the team has not
played like they had 8 games left on their schedule.

I was with ya, Dale. You have to look past 8-8. Kubiak has blinded us with
his overall record. Over the last 3 years, he's 17-9 against the NFL, but only
3-14 against the AFC South. You can't get trounced by your division every
year, and expect to be a playoff team. Even when those teams had down
years, we somehow find a way to get destroyed by them.

This is not acceptable, Dale, and you know it. I know you're keeping the
faith, but losing in style to the AFC South doesn't cut it. Somebody always
screws up in a division game, and Sunday, it was the head coach. This
team doesn't believe it can win in the division, and they know they can
beat the rest of the NFL. That gets you 8-8, but you have to strive to win
your division FIRST, or you'll never get the tiebreakers you need to make
the playoffs.

TexCanada
12-08-2009, 01:18 AM
I've done a lot of things in 4 years...traveled to 20 countries, gone back to college, finally got the ability to grow facial hair. 4 years is a long time for anything, including turning a team around.

treduke
12-08-2009, 01:18 AM
Difficult?
It has the Jags who were blown off the field by the 49ers and Cardinals.
It has the Titans who were destroyed by the Colts, and dang near every
other team on their schedule.
It has the Colts, who you scored 17 unanswered points on in 3 consecutive
games.

Is it too much to ask, that you win 3 of those 6 games? Hell. The Bengals
SWEPT the Steelers, Ravens, AND Browns, and we were able to beat them.

So. is winning 3 of those 6 games a year too high of a bar to set? Even
the 6-6 Dolphins finished division play at 4-2 with the Jets, Patriots and
Bills in their division. Just go 3-3. There's still no excuse. I've already
shown you how this coach has led this team to go 17-9 (last 3 seasons) against everyone
else, but only 3-14 (last 3 seasons) in the AFC South.

It's a tough division, but it ain't THAT hard!

i've felt that way for years everyone talks up the afc south as a tough division but if the texans could just go .500 things might be better its far fetched to shoot for 6-0 but 4-2 could have easily been reached this team will never make the playoffs until we play better inside the division

leebigeztx
12-08-2009, 01:44 AM
I for one would like to see kubiak come back unless they collapse. The texans are in the same boat as the jets and patriots in the 80's when dan marino was killing. Thats not a excuse, but how many times have the colts won the division since realignment? I do think they're really close and would like to see them sign impact free agents vs guys they hope can surge. If they feel like a coaching upgrade is the answer, so be it. Many are screaming for cowher and thats cool as well as shanny,gruden and whomever else comes up. I just people need to be careful what they ask for.

houstonspartan
12-08-2009, 02:17 AM
I for one would like to see kubiak come back unless they collapse. The texans are in the same boat as the jets and patriots in the 80's when dan marino was killing. Thats not a excuse, but how many times have the colts won the division since realignment? I do think they're really close and would like to see them sign impact free agents vs guys they hope can surge. If they feel like a coaching upgrade is the answer, so be it. Many are screaming for cowher and thats cool as well as shanny,gruden and whomever else comes up. I just people need to be careful what they ask for.

Unless they collapse? What games have you been watching the last four weeks?

Bronco Texan
12-08-2009, 02:54 AM
I just people need to be careful what they ask for.

I agree. Those who want Kubes out this year, even if he gets back to 8-8 or 9-7 better be happy with what we get for the next 3 to 4 years. Meaning if we get another coach, rebuild again, and fair no better than 6-10. If that happens no body wanting Kubes out has room to bit#$.

Carr Bombed
12-08-2009, 03:00 AM
I agree. Those who want Kubes out this year, even if he gets back to 8-8 or 9-7 better be happy with what we get for the next 3 to 4 years. Meaning if we get another coach, rebuild again, and fair no better than 6-10. If that happens no body wanting Kubes out has room to bit#$.

:rolleyes: Since you're a Bronco fan, how are you liking the changes your team has made. Being scared of the "unknown" or what might happen isn't a excuse or valid reason to stay with a mediocre status quo.

DexmanC
12-08-2009, 08:49 AM
I agree. Those who want Kubes out this year, even if he gets back to 8-8 or 9-7 better be happy with what we get for the next 3 to 4 years. Meaning if we get another coach, rebuild again, and fair no better than 6-10. If that happens no body wanting Kubes out has room to bit#$.

I want a coach who'll make a bigger mark in our division than 3-14. That's
where Kubiak has been consistent:

1. SUCKING ROYALLY in the AFC South

2. Gaining a winning record against teams that DON'T come from the AFC South.

You look at his overall record, you see him as a successful coach who struggles
to get us over the top. However, you must account for that division record if
you EVER expect to be a championship contender. Kubiak has CONSISTENTLY
gotten us a losing record over the last 3 seasons in the AFC South, while the
consensus was that he's IMPROVED the team over the last 3 seasons.

3-14 in the AFC South, 17-9 against the rest of the NFL, folks. I was fooled by it. Most of you guys
are still fooled by the 8-8 records. Take a closer look, and you've got a team that
doesn't believe it can compete in its own division, and they KNOW they can
stomp anyone else.

The Texans' big brothers in their division can whip their ass all day and night,
but people outside the family think the Texans are big and tough.

Double Barrel
12-08-2009, 10:59 AM
How many teams are going to rush to make Kubiak their next head coach?

:cricket:

yeah, that's what I thought. If we really want to succeed in the NFL, we need to raise our standards to the levels of those that do succeed in the NFL. And those teams would not hire Gary Kubiak as their head coach.

noxiousdog
12-08-2009, 11:14 AM
:rolleyes: Since you're a Bronco fan, how are you liking the changes your team has made. Being scared of the "unknown" or what might happen isn't a excuse or valid reason to stay with a mediocre status quo.

That's my biggest problem with Kubiak. Both the Broncos and Saints hired legit defensive coordinators, and that made their teams much better.

Kubiak went with mediocrity.

IlliniJen
12-08-2009, 11:15 AM
How many teams are going to rush to make Kubiak their next head coach?

:cricket:

yeah, that's what I thought. If we really want to succeed in the NFL, we need to raise our standards to the levels of those that do succeed in the NFL. And those teams would not hire Gary Kubiak as their head coach.

Uh, hello!

I hope people read and re-read this point, as it adds just another layer of analysis on Kubiak's coaching ability.

BigBull17
12-08-2009, 11:37 AM
That's my biggest problem with Kubiak. Both the Broncos and Saints hired legit defensive coordinators, and that made their teams much better.

Kubiak went with mediocrity.

This is why he should lose his job. He didn't even INTERVIEW other D coordinators. NOT ONE. Made me sick then, makes me sick now. Bush hasn't been horrible, but not good enough to justify hiring on the spot and not checking the field.

noxiousdog
12-08-2009, 11:51 AM
This is why he should lose his job. He didn't even INTERVIEW other D coordinators. NOT ONE. Made me sick the, makes me sick now. Bush hasn't been horrible, but not good enough to justify hiring on the spot and not checking the field.

It's not even just about the defense. I'm sure hiring good, experienced coaches helps the entire team, including the other coaches on both sides of the ball.

It was just another in a long line of bad management decisions.

Goatcheese
12-08-2009, 11:58 AM
That's my biggest problem with Kubiak. Both the Broncos and Saints hired legit defensive coordinators, and that made their teams much better.

Kubiak went with mediocrity.

The Saints went out and hired a legit defensive coordinator, and their defense is pretty much the same as ours in most major catagories.

Mr. White
12-08-2009, 12:02 PM
The Saints went out and hired a legit defensive coordinator, and their defense is pretty much the same as ours in most major catagories.

I don't know about that. I've seen enough Saints games this season.

While ours is improved, it isn't close to theirs.

Their defense actually scores.

IlliniJen
12-08-2009, 12:14 PM
The Saints went out and hired a legit defensive coordinator, and their defense is pretty much the same as ours in most major catagories.

Uh, no.

The Saints DEF puts a lot of TDs up on the board. They've single-handedly kept the Saints in games or won them outright. They have 8 DEF touchdowns. The Texans? 0.

Their improvement this year has been far greater than ours, as they were pretty fantastic out of the gate and our DEF has had some good outings, but they haven't been consistent this year, and they tend to crumble when it really counts.

JDizzle
12-08-2009, 12:20 PM
The Saints DEF puts a lot of TDs up on the board. They've single-handedly kept the Saints in games or won them outright. They have 8 DEF touchdowns. The Texans? 0.


We have 1 defensive score against the Jets.

Goatcheese
12-08-2009, 12:26 PM
I don't know about that. I've seen enough Saints games this season.

While ours is improved, it isn't close to theirs.

Their defense actually scores.

Uh, no.

The Saints DEF puts a lot of TDs up on the board. They've single-handedly kept the Saints in games or won them outright. They have 8 DEF touchdowns. The Texans? 0.

Their improvement this year has been far greater than ours, as they were pretty fantastic out of the gate and our DEF has had some good outings, but they haven't been consistent this year, and they tend to crumble when it really counts.

The only area they are much better in is INTs, and the difference there is almost all Darren Sharper, not the coach.

Overall
Hou 16th
No 18th

Pasing
Hou 14th
No 22nd

Rushing
Hou 22nd
No 20th

Scoring
Hou 19th
No 16th

Double Barrel
12-08-2009, 12:30 PM
If you like luke-warm coffee, limp handshakes, nougat, beige cubicle farms, mini vans and other things of a tepid, non-descript fashion, then Kubiak is the coach for you.


:spit: <----me, after reading the above

The Saints went out and hired a legit defensive coordinator, and their defense is pretty much the same as ours in most major catagories.

Defensive stats:

Interceptions:
Saints - 23
Texans - 10

Fumbles:
Saints - 14
Texans - 10

Sacks:
Saints - 26
Texans - 19

Def. TDs:
Saints - 8
Texans - 1

Look, we can argue stats and rankings all we want, but the bottom line in the NFL is results. The Saints defense rises when they need to rise and fulfills expectations placed on them, and while our defense is certainly showing signs of improvement as the season progresses, the fact is that they cannot protect leads and blow too many assignments (as clearly evidenced by our four game losing streak).

Vinny
12-08-2009, 12:31 PM
The only area they are much better in is INTs, and the difference there is almost all Darren Sharper, not the coach.

Overall
Hou 16th
No 18th

Pasing
Hou 14th
No 22nd

Rushing
Hou 22nd
No 20th

Scoring
Hou 19th
No 16th Sharper was a new addition, but the coach (Williams) employs Jeff Fisher's S heavy scheme...so Sharper is playing in a scheme that highlights S play. If you look at our S play all I can say is we thought Brandon "i'm no longer in the league" Harrison was projected to start. I don't even think we pursued Sharper.

mussop
12-08-2009, 12:32 PM
It is my sense that this team has gotten better on both sides of the ball, and on special teams since Kubiak became head coach. Just this year, we are finally seeing the defense turning the corner. I have no problem with the progress of the Texans, taken as a whole, under Kubiak up to this point.

Both you and TK keep avoiding the important questions.

Has Kubiak improved as a HC?

Has Kubiaks in game decisions gotten better?

Has Kubiaks clock management gotten better?

Has Kubiaks personell decisions gotten better?

Has Kubiaks game preperation gotten better?

Has Kubiaks in game adjustments gotten better?

Has Kubiaks leadership abilities gotten better?

At what point do you come to the conclusion that Kubiak isnt progressing as a coach and is holding this team back?

When is the last time you seen a team make the playoffs with a coach who makes mistakes like Kubiak?

After 4 years what makes you think one more will make the light go on?

This team has steadily improved its talent level and its offensive and defensive productivity, yet they still havent been able to improve in the win loss collum or in tight game situations. Kubiak has continued to make the same mistakes over and over and over and now over again. Im sorry I like Kubiak but I think hes taken this team as far as he can. Its time for someone to come in and get this team to perform up to its potential. We have the right tools for the job we just need someone who knows how to use them.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm at least a page behind on this thread, so I need to catch up. However I just caught Mike Tomlin's post game speach (DVR'd with the Min/ARI game) but he said some interesting things.

I know he took the Steelers to the Super Bowl & won in his second year. So around here, that qualifies him as a good coach. I also know that this team won the Super Bowl last year, so, around here, that's a damn good team.

So what's the difference?

The New York Giants. Another team that has recetnly won the Super Bowl, again, around here that equates to good coach, & good team. They also experienced a 4 game losing streak from week 6 through week 9.

What's the difference?

You've got good teams, with good coaches going through 4 game losing streaks. The fact that those teams have experienced losing streaks similar to ours only supports the fact that this is the NFL, and wins are hard to come by period. I can understand the fans not being as upset as we are, because of their recent success. But a 4 game losing streak is a 4 game losing streak.

Now it's possible, that we're looking at 3 bad head coaches, 3 guys who shouldn't be leading NFL franchises. Tom Coughlin has been on the hot seat before, so this isn't new to him. The Super Bowl might have been the fluke. Giants fans may be in for more of this if Coughlin keeps his job. That might have been the Chins Super Bowl, & Steelers fans may be in for more of this. We may be in for more of this, if Kubiak gets his job, except we may never see the Super Bowl.

So what am I saying? The same thing I've been saying since the beginning of the season. W-L record is only a small part of what needs to be evaluated to determine the future of our head coach.

Now, I shouldn't do this, but I'll give you a reason we should say goodbye to Gary Kubiak.

There is a right way, and a wrong way to handle any given situation. Mike Tomlin chose to say this after his most recent loss:
"You've got to acknowledge the potential this can be kind of a shaken group," Tomlin said. "We've swallowed a lot. I'm going to be looking very closely at these men ... in terms of who legitimately is mentally tough and who can stand the test of adversity."
This gives the fans (& the media)reason to believe the head coach is on top of the situation. His whole press conference followed the same tone, with the same message. He doesn't "blame" the players, but you understand it's a performance issue, a "mental" attitude on the field. He also gives you the feeling that he understands the problem, & knows how to fix it. The question why hasn't he addressed it or fixed it yet never comes up, because he fills you with confidence & hope for the future. He buys himself another week free of scrutiny, until we see what he puts on the field next week, & the outcome of that game.

I'm not saying that Gary's press conferences should get him fired. I don't believe that a coach has to put it all out there in the media. But the way he handles the situation (which as far as I'm concerned, is the same, except we didn't lose to one of the worst teams in football) should be the same approach Gary takes. Kubiak should have said something similar to McNair. He should convey the same message to his players, & we should see the same kind of shake up on the field.

Busing out, Dominic Barber in the second half of the Jacksonville game, when we held them to 3 points is part of that. Putting Dunta Robinson back on Tory Holt Exclusively was part of that. Chris White seeing a lot less playing time next week, IMHO should be part of that. Extra attention in practice with Eric Winston, & Rex Grossman should be part of that.

Speaking of the 3 points they scored in the second half, there was a 3-8 play, they converted, because Demeco didn't wrap up the ball carrier. This is one of our defensive leaders. To me, this is a direct example of what McNair said last week. Our leaders simply not developing to the level they need to be at, in the time frame we wanted them to.

Dunta Robinson, who was supposed to be that developed leader, took weeks before he started to make plays that would establish him as the leader he was supposed to be. He had a very good game Sunday by the way. So that makes 2 out of 13.

Domonic Barber also looked good yesterday, & if he keeps that up, he'll be another successful draft pick developed right here.

We owned MJD all game, except when we needed to. That's the players... not the coaches. Watch the game again, the players are there. It's not like they were unprepaired to do what they had been doing up until that point. Brian Billick didn't have to give Ray Lewis & the defense a pep talk before every crucial moment. That was Ray Lewis giving his team a pep talk before the crucial moments. Instead we've got Antonio Smith, Pollard & Demeco missing tackles. You've got Dunta Robinson being taken out of the play.

That is what this team is missing. You can't put that on a time table. All you can do is support the players, & nurture it. Which may explain why GK takes all the blame, all the time in the media.

W-L's don't mean much to me right now, because I know that's basically decided by luck more than anything right now for this team. We're playing well (so is the other team), our players are taking responsibilty for the results of what happens on the field, but they aren't taking ownership. You can kind of see it developing, & I believe it will happen.

One of the things that make me feel that way, is that our field general has been extending plays, & making things happen over the last 3 weeks. If you think about it, a knock on Schaub was that if the play wasn't there, if he leaves the pocket, the play was over. He is not accepting that any more. He's making things happen, & our receivers, RBs, & OL are all working with him, to make things happen.

We all love Andre, when have you ever seen him beat the hell out a CB, and 2 safeties for a TD, like he did against Arizona? Other than when he did the same thing Sunday to get to the 1 yard line before the TD where we went for the 2 point conversion?

These guys are growing up, & I know there are a hundred things that makes you want to get Kubiak out of here. But I think the good things that are happening far out weigh them all.

Goatcheese
12-08-2009, 12:43 PM
:spit: <----me, after reading the above



Defensive stats:

Interceptions:
Saints - 23
Texans - 10

Fumbles:
Saints - 14
Texans - 10

Sacks:
Saints - 26
Texans - 19

Def. TDs:
Saints - 8
Texans - 1

Look, we can argue stats and rankings all we want, but the bottom line in the NFL is results. The Saints defense rises when they need to rise and fulfills expectations placed on them, and while our defense is certainly showing signs of improvement as the season progresses, the fact is that they cannot protect leads and blow too many assignments (as clearly evidenced by our four game losing streak).

Notice how most of those categories are close together except INTs, and Sharper makes up 8 of those by himself.

If you blow an assignment, that means it's a problem with the players, not an issue of coaching. The players themselves say that Bush has them in the right positions, and it's them who are blowing the plays.

So how would bringing in Williams have completely transformed our defense? Darren Sharper would have made a bigger difference for us than Williams.

Sharper was a new addition, but the coach (Williams) employs Jeff Fisher's S heavy scheme...so Sharper is playing in a scheme that highlights S play. If you look at our S play all I can say is we thought Brandon "i'm no longer in the league" Harrison was projected to start. I don't even think we pursued Sharper.

It would have been nice if they addressed the safety positions, like many of us begged them to all offseason.

Considering that Sharper is among the career leaders in INTs, and defensive TDs, I'd be more inclined to give him credit than the coach.

houstonspartan
12-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Both you and TK keep avoiding the important questions.

Has Kubiak improved as a HC? Hell no.

Has Kubiaks in game decisions gotten better? Hell no.

Has Kubiaks clock management gotten better? Hell no.

Has Kubiaks personell decisions gotten better? Hell no.

Has Kubiaks game preperation gotten better? Hell no.

Has Kubiaks in game adjustments gotten better? Hell no.

Has Kubiaks leadership abilities gotten better? Hell no.

At what point do you come to the conclusion that Kubiak isnt progressing as a coach and is holding this team back?

When is the last time you seen a team make the playoffs with a coach who makes mistakes like Kubiak?

After 4 years what makes you think one more will make the light go on?

This team has steadily improved its talent level and its offensive and defensive productivity, yet they still havent been able to improve in the win loss collum or in tight game situations. Kubiak has continued to make the same mistakes over and over and over and now over again. Im sorry I like Kubiak but I think hes taken this team as far as he can. Its time for someone to come in and get this team to perform up to its potential. We have the right tools for the job we just need someone who knows how to use them.

Agree with what you've said.

Vinny
12-08-2009, 12:47 PM
Considering that Sharper is among the career leaders in INTs, and defensive TDs, I'd be more inclined to give him credit than the coach.
He gets credit, but coaches put you in a position to succeed, players make plays based on being in the right position. It's a synergy. One without the other doesn't work. If you are a student of the NFL you know that Sharper probably went to work for Williams based on how he uses his S's. All Fisher's schemes are a hybrid of Buddy Ryans stuff and heck the 46 defense is named after Doug Plank who wore #46 for Buddy Ryan. He was a Safety of course.

Norg
12-08-2009, 12:50 PM
How many teams are going to rush to make Kubiak their next head coach?

:cricket:

yeah, that's what I thought. If we really want to succeed in the NFL, we need to raise our standards to the levels of those that do succeed in the NFL. And those teams would not hire Gary Kubiak as their head coach.

Maybe not HC but OC in a heart beat he has deff turned Our Offensive around IMO for the better compared on what we had 2 years ago

beerlover
12-08-2009, 12:58 PM
The big question going into this season was the Texans defense. I don't remember anyone saying the Texans offense needs to show improvement or else.... Kubiak/Smith knew this releasing Richard Smith & elevating Frank Bush to DC. They also went into Free Agency & addressed this issue targeting DL pass rush help in Antonio Smith & plucking SS Bernard Pollard off waivers. If that wasn't enough both first day picks went defensive, DROY to be OLB Brian Cushing & DE Barwin Connor.

Folks we have a first year Defensive Coordinator who has some weapons @ his disposal & showing much promise, even w/Mario battling a shoulder ailment all season.

Now its the offense that's struggling, getting the ball to Andre in key red-zone situations, missing would've been all-pro TE Owen Daniels & Steve Slaton sitting because of ball security issues. Defenses know this & just like in years past pin their ears back & come after a not very mobile QB in Matt Schaub. Top this off with a NEW OC Kyle Shanahan. We wonder why there are problems executing all of a sudden, why they struggle in time management situations, coaches challenges, try gimmick low percentage plays as the noose tightens around their collective throats?

The only weapon aquired via the draft in the first round offensively was back in 03 w/Andre Johnson. This offense struggles because they cannot run the football with confidence. If Kubiak is to survive he needs to establish this ability to control the clock, keep the defense fresh, keep the chains moving & score in key red-zone opportunites.

To say four years isn't enough is a shortsighted approach in this unique situation. It's a fluid process thats stubbed its toe in major fashion, but cutting off the foot because of a broken toe does not make the process move any faster, its just another set-back & I think a little reality mixed in with patience is prudent. I know it sucks, Gary would agree but as the Stones said, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" :turtle:

Double Barrel
12-08-2009, 01:00 PM
Notice how most of those categories are close together except INTs, and Sharper makes up 8 of those by himself.

If you blow an assignment, that means it's a problem with the players, not an issue of coaching. The players themselves say that Bush has them in the right positions, and it's them who are blowing the plays.

So how would bringing in Williams have completely transformed our defense? Darren Sharper would have made a bigger difference for us than Williams.

To be honest, I'm not really all that down about Bush. While I think it would have been nice to have at least one main coach on this team with experience at their position, I think he's improved enough that I can't really breath fire about hiring the guy.

But, when comparing them to the Saints, it's more than just stats. It's about attitude, and when I've watched the Saints, I see an entire team with a fire in it's belly that is playing with purpose. That attitude, my friend, comes from the head coach and filters down through the staff and into the hearts of players.

Maybe not HC but OC in a heart beat he has deff turned Our Offensive around IMO for the better compared on what we had 2 years ago

I have no doubt that Kubiak will make a fine OC for some NFL team down the road. I have never questioned him in that regard, but being a coordinator is far from being a head coach.

IlliniJen
12-08-2009, 01:01 PM
Notice how most of those categories are close together except INTs, and Sharper makes up 8 of those by himself.

If you blow an assignment, that means it's a problem with the players, not an issue of coaching. The players themselves say that Bush has them in the right positions, and it's them who are blowing the plays.

So how would bringing in Williams have completely transformed our defense? Darren Sharper would have made a bigger difference for us than Williams.



It would have been nice if they addressed the safety positions, like many of us begged them to all offseason.

Considering that Sharper is among the career leaders in INTs, and defensive TDs, I'd be more inclined to give him credit than the coach.

I'm starting to think that you haven't watched any Saints games this year. Comparing them (and their improvement) with the Texans, it's not even close. And I think you can see their impact on the W-L category.

mussop
12-08-2009, 01:04 PM
but as the Stones said, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" :turtle:


But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

Norg
12-08-2009, 01:08 PM
The big question going into this season was the Texans defense. I don't remember anyone saying the Texans offense needs to show improvement or else.... Kubiak/Smith knew this releasing Richard Smith & elevating Frank Bush to DC. They also went into Free Agency & addressed this issue targeting DL pass rush help in Antonio Smith & plucking SS Bernard Pollard off waivers. If that wasn't enough both first day picks went defensive, DROY to be OLB Brian Cushing & DE Barwin Connor.

Folks we have a first year Defensive Coordinator who has some weapons @ his disposal & showing much promise, even w/Mario battling a shoulder ailment all season.

Now its the offense that's struggling, getting the ball to Andre in key red-zone situations, missing would've been all-pro TE Owen Daniels & Steve Slaton sitting because of ball security issues. Defenses know this & just like in years past pin their ears back & come after a not very mobile QB in Matt Schaub. Top this off with a NEW OC Kyle Shanahan. We wonder why there are problems executing all of a sudden, why they struggle in time management situations, coaches challenges, try gimmick low percentage plays as the noose tightens around their collective throats?

The only weapon aquired via the draft in the first round offensively was back in 03 w/Andre Johnson. This offense struggles because they cannot run the football with confidence. If Kubiak is to survive he needs to establish this ability to control the clock, keep the defense fresh, keep the chains moving & score in key red-zone opportunites.

To say four years isn't enough is a shortsighted approach in this unique situation. It's a fluid process thats stubbed its toe in major fashion, but cutting off the foot because of a broken toe does not make the process move any faster, its just another set-back & I think a little reality mixed in with patience is prudent. I know it sucks, Gary would agree but as the Stones said, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" :turtle:

Matt is deff missing is boy OD

also i think our interor O line hasent been the same since Chester pitts got injured

along with a slaton down year

thats why our O stalled IMO

ye deff need to fix our o line next year to give Matt clean Pockets

noxiousdog
12-08-2009, 01:25 PM
The Saints went out and hired a legit defensive coordinator, and their defense is pretty much the same as ours in most major catagories.

You're making the mistake of looking at total stats rather than rate stats.

Defensive stats
Saints -
5.8 Yards per attempt passing. (10th)
4.5 Yards per attempt rushing. (25th) <-- Keep in mind this is inflated due to playing with a lead and allowing rushing late in the game. They are 1st in point differential.

Broncos -
5.2 Yards per attempt passing (2nd)
3.9 Yards per attempt rushing (10th)

Texans -
6.3 Yards per attempt passing. (21st)
4.6 yards per attempt rushing. (27th)


Regardless, my point is that a coordinator like Nolan or Williams helps everyone; not just one side of the ball. It's similiar to our bringing in Gibbs, but more effective since Kubiak wouldn't have already been exposed to Gibbs system.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 03:04 PM
Both you and TK keep avoiding the important questions.

I'm not avoiding the important questions, I've answered everything I think is important.

I've mentioned several times that I don't agree with a lot of things Kubiak does from the sidelines. I've agreed he still has a lot of work to do from there.

I know my posts are long, but it's me explaining the things I think he has done well, that I believe out weigh all the bad.

Has Kubiak improved as a HC?

Yes, he's overcome a lot of diversity to put a good football team on the field, every Sunday

Has Kubiaks in game decisions gotten better?

Yes, we are one or two plays away from winning every game, because of the game time decisions he makes. Just like the HB pass he called Sunday, that call would have go us 6 points in a game we were down by 11, if Chris White & Vonta Leach would have made the correct blocks.

You can call it a bad call all you want, but if Chris White & Vonta Leach made better decisions.... heck if Vonta leach alone makes a better decision, that's a touch down.

& don't give me the wrong time to call that play, or taking the play out of your play-makers hands argument either. It was first & goal. Had Chris Brown made the decision to take a sack, he would still have three more plays to try something else. There were several things that could have happened on that play, several decisions the players could have made that would not have put the ball in the hands of the Jaguars.

The outcome of that call is on the players, not the coach.

Has Kubiaks clock management gotten better?

I don't know, I can't think of a time when I questioned his clock management this year. Help me out, & jog my memory.

Has Kubiaks personell decisions gotten better?

Yes, people want to talk about Myers.... i guess this is what you're after here. Myers has had one bad play.... getting tossed by Jenkins, in a season full of very good play.

Are you talking about Chris Brown? I do not know why Kubiak has decided to put the ball more in Chris Brown's hands. But he's been more affective than I thought he would be. Not as affective as I think Moats would have been. I definitely would have liked to have seen Larry Johnson take his place, but we aren't losing games, because Brown is getting so much playing time.

Has Kubiaks game preperation gotten better?

Definitely, & a big time Hell Yeah

Has Kubiaks in game adjustments gotten better?

Yes, only game I can think of where this was a problem, was Monday night against Tennessee. But we lost this game, by 3 even though we missed 2 field goals.

Has Kubiaks leadership abilities gotten better?

Yes

At what point do you come to the conclusion that Kubiak isnt progressing as a coach and is holding this team back?

When he starts to hold the team back.

When is the last time you seen a team make the playoffs with a coach who makes mistakes like Kubiak?

What mistakes exactly are we talking about?

After 4 years what makes you think one more will make the light go on?

I'm not waiting for a light to go on. I'm waiting for some players to step up.

This team has steadily improved its talent level and its offensive and defensive productivity, yet they still havent been able to improve in the win loss collum

2009's W-L column hasn't been written yet.

or in tight game situations.

True

Kubiak has continued to make the same mistakes over and over and over and now over again.

This team is missing it's two starting interior linemen, safety, Corner, Pro Bowl TE, RB... & we're still in close games. The depth, & the play of that depth has greatly improved.

We're better in the red zone this year, on both sides of the ball. & we're better on third down.. on both sides of the ball.

Im sorry I like Kubiak but I think hes taken this team as far as he can. Its time for someone to come in and get this team to perform up to its potential. We have the right tools for the job we just need someone who knows how to use them.

& I don't agree. It would have been nice to see some of these changes take affect quickeer. It has on other teams in similar situations to ours. 8 years ago, I tried comparing this team to the Lions, & the overwhelming response of the people on that board at that time (many of them are here on this board now) was that we were worse off than the Lions & the Cards.. Since we were starting from scratch.

The lions still haven't done crap, & the Cardinals are only recently seeing improvement.

But I beleive, even though it has taken Gary Kubiak longer to turn this thing around, than I would have liked, he is turning this thing around, & I don't believe he is finished.

The question, is if McNair is satisfied with the pace or not. This team is getting better, this organization is getting better, all because of GK (IMNSHO)... but is it fast enough?

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 03:06 PM
He gets credit, but coaches put you in a position to succeed, players make plays based on being in the right position. It's a synergy. One without the other doesn't work.

Watch defensive stand against the Jags, before the 2 minute warning.

Do you believe the players were in position to succeed or not?

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Maybe not HC but OC in a heart beat he has deff turned Our Offensive around IMO for the better compared on what we had 2 years ago

If I were Washington, I'd be hoping the Texans let him go.

Jackie Chiles
12-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Watch defensive stand against the Jags, before the 2 minute warning.

Do you believe the players were in position to succeed or not?

What about the the TD pass Garrard threw to make it 17-0, did you watch that play? 2nd game in a row where we have defenders in the middle of the end zone letting a receiver catch a ball and pretty much fall backwards untouched for a TD. What the heck is going on in that play because it sure didn't look they were put in position to succeed to me.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 03:17 PM
The big question going into this season was the Texans defense. I don't remember anyone saying the Texans offense needs to show improvement or else.... Kubiak/Smith knew this releasing Richard Smith & elevating Frank Bush to DC. They also went into Free Agency & addressed this issue targeting DL pass rush help in Antonio Smith & plucking SS Bernard Pollard off waivers. If that wasn't enough both first day picks went defensive, DROY to be OLB Brian Cushing & DE Barwin Connor.

Folks we have a first year Defensive Coordinator who has some weapons @ his disposal & showing much promise, even w/Mario battling a shoulder ailment all season.

Now its the offense that's struggling, getting the ball to Andre in key red-zone situations, missing would've been all-pro TE Owen Daniels & Steve Slaton sitting because of ball security issues. Defenses know this & just like in years past pin their ears back & come after a not very mobile QB in Matt Schaub. Top this off with a NEW OC Kyle Shanahan. We wonder why there are problems executing all of a sudden, why they struggle in time management situations, coaches challenges, try gimmick low percentage plays as the noose tightens around their collective throats?

The only weapon aquired via the draft in the first round offensively was back in 03 w/Andre Johnson. This offense struggles because they cannot run the football with confidence. If Kubiak is to survive he needs to establish this ability to control the clock, keep the defense fresh, keep the chains moving & score in key red-zone opportunites.

I'm with you up to here. You bring to the discussion that defense was the main issue, & that we loaded up defensively to address those issues, which I think we've been successful in correcting. Still work to do, there is always work to do, but a good job by the coaches nonetheless.

You also mention concerns with a new offensive coordinator & deffensive coordintator, which in my mind shows how Gary's energy into building strong leaders on this team extend beyond the grid-iron. Good call/bad call that can be debated, he could have brought in Greg Williams & then lose him a year later to a head coaching job. So while many may call it a mistake, GK may have been well aware of this.... Bob McNair may have been well aware of this, and on board (if I were McNair, I would definitely have been on board).



To say four years isn't enough is a shortsighted approach in this unique situation. It's a fluid process thats stubbed its toe in major fashion, but cutting off the foot because of a broken toe does not make the process move any faster, its just another set-back & I think a little reality mixed in with patience is prudent. I know it sucks, Gary would agree but as the Stones said, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" :turtle:

But you lost me here... I see we aren't on the same page at all.

I think our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Steve Slaton, & or putting way too much on the little guys shoulders.

If Slaton was the guy we thought he was.... we would be talking about hosting a play-off game right now.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 03:21 PM
ye deff need to fix our o line next year to give Matt clean Pockets

Matt has had so many clean pockets this year, it's unreal.

Still, the biggest problem on this line, when pass protecting, is the right tackle.

When run-blocking
on the play side going to the right, everything is good. Except the only RB we've got who can see the cut back is too slow to hit it.
on the backside going to the left, it's the right tackle.

IlliniJen
12-08-2009, 03:21 PM
If I were Washington, I'd be hoping the Texans let him go.

Oh, now there's a Dysfunction Junction franchise. Hiring Kubiak would just be another in a long line of poor Redskins ownership decisions.

But that's a ringing endorsement, a chronically bad team - who couldn't choose a decent coach if zombie Vince Lombardi clawed his way out of his grave and prostrated himself before Daniel Snyder - would love to have him.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 03:27 PM
What about the the TD pass Garrard threw to make it 17-0, did you watch that play? 2nd game in a row where we have defenders in the middle of the end zone letting a receiver catch a ball and pretty much fall backwards untouched for a TD. What the heck is going on in that play because it sure didn't look they were put in position to succeed to me.

The call was right. the coverage was right.

I believe it was Busing having a hard time firguring out what he was supposed to do. He should have let the inside receiver go, and come down to make the play on the outside receiver.

Instead of trusting Reeves.... (by the way, both Reeves & Busing are starting because Quinn & Wilson are hurt), he was trying to do Reeves job, & got burned.

But the importance of looking at that last defensive stand, is because that is when your leaders need to step up, & make a play.

The touch down you mention is important, but despite that easy touchdown, there were no more of them in the rest of the game. 1 is too many, I agree, but if we're talking about game time decisions, this is one right there. Busing out, Barber in.

If we stopped Jacksonville on that possession, they wouldn't have ended the game on Garrards knee. It would have ended with us attempting to win the game.

dalemurphy
12-08-2009, 03:28 PM
I think our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Steve Slaton, & or putting way too much on the little guys shoulders.

If Slaton was the guy we thought he was.... we would be talking about hosting a play-off game right now.

The one really concern I have with Kubiak is that he overestimates the abilities of a lot of players: N. Ferguson/D. Barber/ Busing, F. Bennett, K. Studdard, A. Okoye, E. Winston, C. White... I think they don't evaluate their own talent particularly well and it is the biggest problem. Thank God Rick Smith knows how to find cheap talent and get guys like Pollard, E. Wilson off the scrap heap or we'd be in worse shape.

If Busing and C. White were on the bench Sunday like they should've been, we'd be talking about how good our playoff chances are now that Baltimore and Pittsburgh both lost again.

beerlover
12-08-2009, 03:36 PM
I see we aren't on the same page at all.

I think our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Steve Slaton, & or putting way too much on the little guys shoulders.

If Slaton was the guy we thought he was.... we would be talking about hosting a play-off game right now.

Call me biased but Steve Slaton can play, I have an issue with the way Kubiak handled him. His decision is one that has cost this teams playoff chances, if anything this is a real reason to replace Kubiak not Slaton. The use of Chris Brown over Steve Slaton in goaline situations is where it started & it was Brown fumbling away games on the goaline not Slaton.

It's hard to explain the mindset of a running back, I'm sure they're all unique but one thing I beleive is you show them love by letting them hit pay dirt, it builds them up both amongst teammates, coaching staff, fans & media all that is undermined to some extent by not having faith, or confidence in allowing your playmaker his due opportunities.

If we differ here I'm sorry, I like your posts & sentiments are well intended. My hope is Gary has learned something finally, that using 3rd/4th options with games on the line is not in his or in Texans best interest. We've talked about not going to Andre many, many times in these situations & its the same thing with Steve with Owen out & Slaton on the sidelines our options are less than favorable, the record bears this out.

Jackie Chiles
12-08-2009, 03:39 PM
The call was right. the coverage was right.

Pretty much the same coverage against Indy when Dallas Clark made the same simple catch and waltz into the end zone in front of DeMeco the week before. He's not some backup so you can't use that as an excuse. Either get the players conditioned to make the right decision in the right coverage or change something with the coverage. We can't do either.

mussop
12-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Call me biased but Steve Slaton can play, I have an issue with the way Kubiak handled him. His decision is one that has cost this teams playoff chances, if anything this is a real reason to replace Kubiak not Slaton. The use of Chris Brown over Steve Slaton in goaline situations is where it started & it was Brown fumbling away games on the goaline not Slaton.

It's hard to explain the mindset of a running back, I'm sure they're all unique but one thing I beleive is you show them love by letting them hit pay dirt, it builds them up both amongst teammates, coaching staff, fans & media all that is undermined to some extent by not having faith, or confidence in allowing your playmaker his due opportunities.

If we differ here I'm sorry, I like your posts & sentiments are well intended. My hope is Gary has learned something finally, that using 3rd/4th options with games on the line is not in his or in Texans best interest. We've talked about not going to Andre many, many times in these situations & its the same thing with Steve with Owen out & Slaton on the sidelines our options are less than favorable, the record bears this out.

Exactly! Proof that Kubiak still makes poor game and personell decisions.

DexmanC
12-08-2009, 03:42 PM
What about the the TD pass Garrard threw to make it 17-0, did you watch that play? 2nd game in a row where we have defenders in the middle of the end zone letting a receiver catch a ball and pretty much fall backwards untouched for a TD. What the heck is going on in that play because it sure didn't look they were put in position to succeed to me.

Our coaches talk about us being physical, but they don't allow our players
to BE physical. If we had a good free safety we could line our corners up
at the line and Cushing over the tightend and play bump and run. However,
Dunta sucks at this, and our D-line is inconsistent at collapsing the pocket.

On the play you were talking about, they had Busing lined up over the
tightend. Busing decided to play the receiver, who was already covered
by Reeves. When Wilson went down, the Jags began abusing Busing.

beerlover
12-08-2009, 03:48 PM
What about the the TD pass Garrard threw to make it 17-0, did you watch that play? 2nd game in a row where we have defenders in the middle of the end zone letting a receiver catch a ball and pretty much fall backwards untouched for a TD. What the heck is going on in that play because it sure didn't look they were put in position to succeed to me.

I can talk to this having watched that play closely. The difference being Toby sold the play by making the defense respect the run first, not that he is so much better a runner than Chris Brown (which he is) he actually went into the line of scrimmage as if he was hitting the hole, then he quickly backed out, bought time to allow the receiver to uncover thus making the wide open throw for a TD. It was both an example of a playmaker making a play as well as excellent excecution of a play fake which this play needs to be successful :specnatz:

MojoMan
12-08-2009, 04:17 PM
I think our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Steve Slaton, & or putting way too much on the little guys shoulders.

If Slaton was the guy we thought he was.... we would be talking about hosting a play-off game right now.

Good post. I totally agree.

Slaton has been hailed by many as a franchise-class running back. But he is clearly not any such thing. In an ideal world, Slaton would be the Texans second string back coming off the bench for about 15 plays a game.

I am usually one of the first people on this board to publicly criticize the annual call to draft an offensive skill player with the Texans first round pick by what appears to be a majority of Texan's fans. However, it appears that the running game is clearly this team's weakest link, and Steve Slaton is not the answer. As far as the OL goes, we are not going to draft an OT early, as Brown and Winston are fixtures who are not going anywhere. Also, since the Texans have Pitts and Brissel expected to return at the OG positions, they are not going to draft a guard or a center in the first round.

This upcoming draft would actually be a great time for the Texans to finally spend their first round pick on a franchise-class running back. Despite the Texan's unsatisfactory W-L record, this team's starting line-up does not have the kind of glaring holes that we have seen in years gone by. It appears likely that this is the single, highest-impact move this team can make.

Obtaining a rock solid franchise-class RB during the next offseason appears to be a better move than firing Gary Kubiak, IMHO.

barrett
12-08-2009, 04:26 PM
Keep Him.

Goldensilence
12-08-2009, 05:14 PM
Good post. I totally agree.

Slaton has been hailed by many as a franchise-class running back. But he is clearly not any such thing. In an ideal world, Slaton would be the Texans second string back coming off the bench for about 15 plays a game.

I am usually one of the first people on this board to publicly criticize the annual call to draft an offensive skill player with the Texans first round pick by what appears to be a majority of Texan's fans. However, it appears that the running game is clearly this team's weakest link, and Steve Slaton is not the answer. As far as the OL goes, we are not going to draft an OT early, as Brown and Winston are fixtures who are not going anywhere. Also, since the Texans have Pitts and Brissel expected to return at the OG positions, they are not going to draft a guard or a center in the first round.

This upcoming draft would actually be a great time for the Texans to finally spend their first round pick on a franchise-class running back. Despite the Texan's unsatisfactory W-L record, this team's starting line-up does not have the kind of glaring holes that we have seen in years gone by. It appears likely that this is the single, highest-impact move this team can make.

Obtaining a rock solid franchise-class RB during the next offseason appears to be a better move than firing Gary Kubiak, IMHO.

Brisiel, Myers, Studdard and White would have trouble finding work as a starter or possibly even a backup anywhere else. I like Pitts and hope they manage to work something out to give him a shot to compete for a roster spot when he gets healthy after the season.

I don't think a whole lot of people on this board thought that Slaton was a guy who could carry the load of a franchise back, that's why many were calling for a back that could help carry the load. We were staring at the chance to get a back that could do that in LeSean McCoy and Shonn Green. Instead they decided to get cute and draft Conor Barwin. The guy Kubiak wanted to pull the trigger on in the third was Glen Coffee who hasn't do much in San Fran. Also passed up : Javon Ringer, James Davis, Mike Goodson, Andre Brown, and Rashad Jennings. Not saying any of those would've been all world but, they would've been a big upgrade of talent at the spot. We got lucky enough to sign Jeremiah Johnson and Arian Foster as UDFA and instead figure that Glassman Chris Brown was the best option. Sorry dude the situation at RB falls on Gary and Rick.

I know people here are saying that Smith isn't as bad as Casserly, but between him and Kubiak they continue to try and outsmart everyone in the draft. This year taking a first year DE, who looked more like a 3-4 OLB and try to make him into a 4-3 DE. Brilliant idea. Last year it was taking Antwan Molden...hooray small school project in the third. Guess they felt Jacoby Jones was such an unyielding success why not go back to back on gambling if a small school kid could pay off. Which looks real great considering that year they took Amobi Okoye too.

"Smithiak" is the NFL equivalent of Adam Dunn. Man he sure will hit some home runs, but he strikes out a lot in the process.

noxiousdog
12-08-2009, 05:20 PM
FWIW, Connor Barwin is leading rookie defensive linemen in sacks as a part time player.

No More 8-8's
12-08-2009, 05:31 PM
Just look at the Jaguars Team:

They have absolutely no fan support (stadium was barely 42,000, looked awful on TV) and they play with so much heart at home. They have a coach that gets them to believe in themselves and play really hard.

If Gary Kubiak was in Jack Delrio's shoes he would have a sloppy penalized team. Its clear that he has no discipline. Sure bench Jacoby....way to show him.

The players like Gary Kubiak, hell they love him. But that doesnt translate into wins, because they clearly dont respect him or even fear him.

Goldensilence
12-08-2009, 05:57 PM
FWIW, Connor Barwin is leading rookie defensive linemen in sacks as a part time player.

I guess I missed it. Somewhere he got a .5 sack for 2.5.

Michael Johnson of the Bengals has 2

Everette Brown 1.5 sacks and 2 FF

Lawrence Sidbury Drafted two round lower has 1.

Though he's a 3-4 LBer he has to come off the edge as a pass rusher Larry English has 2 sacks as well.

Roy Miller on a bad Tampa team has 2 sacks as a DT and more tackles.

I guess I should've rounded up my thoughts saying unless he really manages to break out the rest of the 4 games, which I just don't see, I feel we could've got similar production from Jesse Nading or Tim Jamison.

houstonspartan
12-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Just look at the Jaguars Team:

They have absolutely no fan support (stadium was barely 42,000, looked awful on TV) and they play with so much heart at home. They have a coach that gets them to believe in themselves and play really hard.

If Gary Kubiak was in Jack Delrio's shoes he would have a sloppy penalized team. Its clear that he has no discipline. Sure bench Jacoby....way to show him.

The players like Gary Kubiak, hell they love him. But that doesnt translate into wins, because they clearly dont respect him or even fear him.

What's interesting is that, nearly every year, people question why Del Rio has a job and when he's going to get fired. Then, nearly every year, he manages to jumpstart his team and get them grinding it out.

Del Rio get a lot of flack, but I give him credit for getting it done when necessary.

Livid13
12-08-2009, 07:08 PM
When a rebuilding team quits improving, then that's enough.

It took 3 years in this case to reach consecutive 8-8 seasons. Now the team is regressing.

4 years is plenty of time to show continuous improvement.

I concur, three years is more than sufficient. Look at the Cardinals for crying out loud. I'm sick of the whole package. IF the DO keep Kubes and he doesn't lead the team into the playoffs, MANY heads should roll. I could care less how we finish the season. I am one LIVID 13 !

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 08:08 PM
Brisiel, Myers, Studdard and White would have trouble finding work as a starter or possibly even a backup anywhere else. I like PittsI don't agree with any of this. But, this along with the rest of this post are good. A real argument against Kubiak, with real gripes. All this other crap is just that, crap & emotion.

I don't think a whole lot of people on this board thought that Slaton was a guy who could carry the load of a franchise back, that's why many were calling for a back that could help carry the load. We were staring at the chance to get a back that could do that in LeSean McCoy and Shonn Green. Instead they decided to get cute and draft Conor Barwin. The guy Kubiak wanted to pull the trigger on in the third was Glen Coffee who hasn't do much in San Fran. Also passed up : Javon Ringer, James Davis, Mike Goodson, Andre Brown, and Rashad Jennings. Not saying any of those would've been all world but, they would've been a big upgrade of talent at the spot. We got lucky enough to sign Jeremiah Johnson and Arian Foster as UDFA and instead figure that Glassman Chris Brown was the best option. Sorry dude the situation at RB falls on Gary and Rick.
Like I said, can't argue this. I'm not a big draft guy..... I'm not into college players, and who's who, & what's what... but even I didn't understand LB, DE, TE, TE...

& still don't.

Wolf
12-08-2009, 08:29 PM
I just feel (as I stated on the other threads) is the talent has surpassed the coaching and the coaching is holding back the talent on this team, for the most part. Esp the offensive side of the ball, Kubiak and Baby Shan should NOT be making the bonehead calls on the offensive side like they have. Defensively, I did expect a learning curve with Bush taking over, he is a rookie (and defense shouldn't have been THAT bad early one, but Bush has done a hell of alot better).

Now with the offensive side..I do feel that we need our int line fixed. it is really stupid that on short yardage our probably best play is playaction and next to that the QB sneak. We upgrade the OL, this offense should roll even better as long as the coaches stop getting cute.

Defensively.. I feel a safety to go with Pollard is key to Bush's defense. I feel a safety is the QB of the defense and the Texans have arguably the worst safety play in the NFL over the last 8 years.. Thank goodness for KC letting Pollard go or hell I don't know what we would do on defense. and someone needs to get the freaking middle of the D-line to get some pressure in the QB's face.

As slow as the Texans are in building a team, they are freaking slower on trying to get players off the FA waiver line. That part of stubbornness amazes me.. I wish the scouting department would be on notice too, I don't recall anyone taking a hit for all the crappy FA signings and shit(someone could correct me if I am worng) because if I am not mistaken, at the beginning of the Texans franchise, I thought Bob said he would pay those guys very well, compared to the league because they make or break the team...

Who knows, but for a team that probably leads the league in coaches on a team, we sure do stupid crap on Sundays and sometimes come unprepared

Goldensilence
12-08-2009, 08:41 PM
I don't agree with any of this. But, this along with the rest of this post are good. A real argument against Kubiak, with real gripes. All this other crap is just that, crap & emotion.

Ok I'm not trying to be a jerk here but out of the four guys I named what inspires confidence that they can make the cut on another team?

Myers was a backup in Denver and even when they were still running Shannahan's ZBS he was still a young backup. IMO the fact they were willing to part with him so easily says they didn't have any real long term plans for him anyway. I'm sure he's a great guy, but from the looks of the past two years he isn't able to consistently get a push or hold the LOS and it's killing us up front.

White doesn't have any real position, but I guess he's versatile like Kubiak likes. Same problem as Myers but maybe a little better at holding the line. He's a backup at best, even on our line.

I like Kasey Studdard. Him and the rest of the line while at UT really pushed the team into the title game IMO. They created holes big enough for me to run through, fall and get 5 yards still.Truth is he just isn't good enough to be a starter, maybe in a power system he'd make a good backup.

Brisiel might be the most athletic of the linemen on the list and he does a decent job getting to the next level. I just see the same problem holdingthe LOS.

Just curious what your take is on them.


Like I said, can't argue this. I'm not a big draft guy..... I'm not into college players, and who's who, & what's what... but even I didn't understand LB, DE, TE, TE...

& still don't.


I'll say up front that I wasn't thrilled with selected Cushing, but I thought at the time he was a safe pick considering we didn't have a legit SLB. He's obviously gone beyond any expectations I had. IMO I think even the moderate turnaround we've seen on defense is attributed to his play. I think if he doesn't step up, the defense looks on par as it did the first couple of games this year, which was not good at all.

Didn't like the Barwin pick then, didn't like it now, and barring him breaking out the last few games and translating it to next year, I'll still hate the pick.

I thought Caldwell was a good pick, but from the sounds of it he doesn't fit what the staff initially thought or maybe Kubiak's doing his Kubiak thing on hesitating to make positional changes. I might be wrong but, I get the feeling we're going to hear "well I wish I had started the kid more, I regret that"

Didn't get the Hill selection. Nothing like taking a blocking TE that will be third on the depth chart going into the season while there's pressing needs elsewhere.

I still think the Casey pick was a publicity pick. I guess he's an alright player and maybe we're still seeing the tip of the iceberg of what he can do. But, as of now looks like picking a hometown player to get the interest of Rice Fans. Texans Marketing at its best. Guess this one remains to be seen.

leebigeztx
12-08-2009, 09:57 PM
I wonder what the titans franchise would look like if bud had fired fisher after 3 8-8 seasons. Look, maybe some are overestimating the talent here. Sure its good, but its not like they can roll their helmets out there and win. I do agree that some calls or a call here or there couldve been better, but that could be said about every .500 or lower team in the league. Look at the ravens and steelers and look where theyre at. To me jacksonville is a fraud and it will come to light soon enough. I just think the teams is still growing and getting better. Do i think changes need to be made? For sure, but its more in line with getting more players. I would like to see wilfolk in the middle of the line, caldwell at guard, and jones to grow up and play more. It wouldve been easy for kubiak to look the other way and play jones, but he's a standup guy that will go a long way with the other players. Losing both guards,wilson,and a probowl te isnt the easiest thing to overcome. Take clark away from manning and its a different team also.

Goldensilence
12-08-2009, 10:02 PM
I wonder what the titans franchise would look like if bud had fired fisher after 3 8-8 seasons. Look, maybe some are overestimating the talent here. Sure its good, but its not like they can roll their helmets out there and win. I do agree that some calls or a call here or there couldve been better, but that could be said about every .500 or lower team in the league. Look at the ravens and steelers and look where theyre at. To me jacksonville is a fraud and it will come to light soon enough. I just think the teams is still growing and getting better. Do i think changes need to be made? For sure, but its more in line with getting more players. I would like to see wilfolk in the middle of the line, caldwell at guard, and jones to grow up and play more. It wouldve been easy for kubiak to look the other way and play jones, but he's a standup guy that will go a long way with the other players. Losing both guards,wilson,and a probowl te isnt the easiest thing to overcome. Take clark away from manning and its a different team also.

Yeah well take Brady away from the Pats for a year and.... wait nm.:)

DexmanC
12-08-2009, 10:06 PM
2009 play in the AFC South
1 win against the Titans
5 consecutive losses against the Jags, Colts, and Titans.

2009 play against the rest of the NFL
4 wins (Raiders, Bengals, 49ers, Bills)
2 losses (Jets, Cardinals)

This is how Coach Kubes has fooled us all these years by finishing 8-8.
We absolutely, and CONSISTENTLY, suck in our own division. We play
VERY WELL against the rest of the NFL. However, if you don't play well
in your division, you'll NEVER make the playoffs in today's NFL.

Thunderkyss. Norg. You guys want us to make the playoffs, right? What
has Kubes shown us, to make us believe he'll turn us into an AFC South
powerhouse? We've never had a winning record in the AFC South. We
HAVE had THREE CONSECUTIVE LOSING RECORDS in our own division. How
do you excuse that?

Mr. White
12-08-2009, 10:12 PM
I think our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Steve Slaton, & or putting way too much on the little guys shoulders.

If Slaton was the guy we thought he was.... we would be talking about hosting a play-off game right now.

I don't buy this for a second. We all knew Slaton's limitations before the season started.

Our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Chris Brown. Just like every year, there were plenty of quality RB's to be had in the draft and FA. And the "smartest guys in the room" passed on all of them.

We all knew that we needed a "thunder" to go with Slaton's "lightning." Kubiak, Smith, and Gibbs were so sure that guy was Chris Brown.

Not only did they think that he was "thunder," but these guys seem to think he's LaDainian Tomlinson in his prime.

DexmanC
12-08-2009, 10:18 PM
I don't buy this for a second. We all knew Slaton's limitations before the season started.

Our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Chris Brown. Just like every year, there were plenty of quality RB's to be had in the draft and FA. And the "smartest guys in the room" passed on all of them.

We all knew that we needed a "thunder" to go with Slaton's "lightning." Kubiak, Smith, and Gibbs were so sure that guy was Chris Brown.

Not only did they think that he was "thunder," but these guys seem to think he's LaDainian Tomlinson in his prime.

It's not that we rely on Chris Brown that I have a problem with. It's WHY
we rely on him so much. Kubiak feels OBLIGATED to play the "kid" because
he worked ALL OFFSEASON to recover from a back injury. He "deserves"
to play, because he works so "hard."

Remember. This is the same coach who played the hell out of "Ronnie" Dayne,
when Darius Walker was outperforming him. It's the same cycle. Nothing
has changed. Just substitute the name "Ronnie" for Chris, and Darius for
Ryan, and you've got the same situation. Kubiak will play favorites,
performance be damned.

By the way...

Coach STILL believes David Anderson is a better receiver than Jacoby Jones.

Mr. White
12-08-2009, 10:24 PM
It's not that we rely on Chris Brown that I have a problem with. It's WHY
we rely on him so much. Kubiak feels OBLIGATED to play the "kid" because
he worked ALL OFFSEASON to recover from a back injury. He "deserves"
to play, because he works so "hard."

Remember. This is the same coach who played the hell out of "Ronnie" Dayne,
when Darius Walker was outperforming him. It's the same cycle. Nothing
has changed. Just substitute the name "Ronnie" for Chris, and Darius for
Ryan, and you've got the same situation. Kubiak will play favorites,
performance be damned.

By the way...

Coach STILL believes David Anderson is a better receiver than Jacoby Jones.

I'd take "Ronnie" over this clown any day. At least he would fall forward to get positive yardage.

thunderkyss
12-08-2009, 10:27 PM
Ok I'm not trying to be a jerk here but out of the four guys I named what inspires confidence that they can make the cut on another team?

they are doing what Kubiak wants them to do, & they are doing it pretty well.

Last year, without a doubt, the problem with the running game was the offensive line. Same thing early this year. But since Buffalo, we've run the ball pretty well, & it was our RBs that was hurting the game. The whole is there, & the cut back lanes are there. Our running backs either don't see them, (Moats & Slaton) or they are too slow to get to them (Chris Brown).

but the line is getting good position & good push (laterally), & good blocks.

Which is why I don't think Chester Pitts plays another game as a Texan. The guy is strong and pretty athletic for his size, but I don't think he ever bought into the system. He'll do fine, & have a nice long career somewhere else.

But I think the interior of this offensive line will be Studdard, Caldwell, & White.

I'm not a big fan of Chris Myers, I don't care what happens to him, whether he starts or gets cut, or whatever. I only defend him, because for the longest time, he, Briesel & Brown were the only ones doing what I understood needed to be done in a ZBS.

This year, you've got 5 guys doing it, & doing it well.

Lucky
12-08-2009, 10:32 PM
I think our biggest issue was overestimating the ability of Steve Slaton, & or putting way too much on the little guys shoulders.
"Our" biggest issue? There were a lot of posters on this board who felt strongly that the Texans needed to acquire a complimentary RB last offseason. That Kubiak and Smith ignored this need is on them.

4 years isn't enough? You have got to be joking. 3 years was enough. I posted this 373 days ago:

The Texans have been dead last in the AFC South since Teflonman arrived. Just as they were before. The Texans are no closer to the playoffs under Teflonman than they were under Capers in 2004. After 43 games as head coach of an expansion team, Capers was 14-29. After 43 games, Teflonman is 18-25. A 4 game difference. That's not the type of improvement Texan fans were promised back on 1/26/06.


This is why he's Teflonman. He is held unaccountable by many fans for the Texans poor defensive performance and the win/loss record.

What is the point of contention? That Teflonman should get one more year to turn this franchise into a winner? Only because the Texans are better than before at getting first downs? If McNair stands pat, that will show me that he's learned nothing about when to fish & when to cut bait. That indecisiveness starts at the top and permeates down. That we are doomed to be the next Bengals. Proud of our offense and draft picks. Always watching other teams in the playoffs. Sorry, but I'll never be happy about that.

Has anything really changed? I mean other than the Bengals getting better. No. My hope going into the season was that the Texans blue chip players would overcome their coaching and become winners. That was too much to ask. There is not a compelling argument to keep Kubiak. The only question left is if Bob McNair has the courage to make a major move to change the culture of this losing organization.

barrett
12-08-2009, 11:08 PM
FWIW, Connor Barwin is leading rookie defensive linemen in sacks as a part time player.

Oddly enough, the exact same thing happened last year. The rookie sack leader was a converted TE.

Runner
12-08-2009, 11:24 PM
I wonder what the titans franchise would look like if bud had fired fisher after 3 8-8 seasons.

This makes me wonder three things:

1) Has any team been mediocre for three years and had that coach not turn into Fisher, Belichick, or Cowher?

2) Should everyone hope that Kubes goes 8-8 next year so he is guaranteed he will be as good as Fisher?

3) Did any coach ever have a mediocre season, then a bad season, and then have success - was Capers fired to early?

Vinny
12-09-2009, 01:41 AM
I wonder what the titans franchise would look like if bud had fired fisher after 3 8-8 seasons. Bud had 4 different home fields in 4 consecutive seasons. 3x 8-8 was a pretty good record since Fisher was building a team that didn't have a field they knew they could call home till year 4. Before Fisher took over the Oilers were awful.

noxiousdog
12-09-2009, 01:52 AM
Bud had 4 different home fields in 4 consecutive seasons. 3x 8-8 was a pretty good record since Fisher was building a team that didn't have a field they knew they could call home till year 4. Before Fisher took over the Oilers were awful.

Fisher's had as many losing seasons as he's had winning seasons. I can't ever decide if he gets too much credit, or not enough.

And while the '94 Oilers were awful, the '87-'93 Oilers made the playoffs every year with '93 being the before Fisher high water mark.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 02:18 AM
Fisher's had as many losing seasons as he's had winning seasons. I can't ever decide if he gets too much credit, or not enough.

And while the '94 Oilers were awful, the '87-'93 Oilers made the playoffs every year with '93 being the before Fisher high water mark.
If you are being fair you will add that this playoff team you point to was effectively dismantled in a massive salary cap purging. They Traded Moon to the Vikings, Dishman was out, William Fuller, Wilber Marshall, Sean Jones, Bubba McDowell (just to name a few)...gone. Fisher took over a 1-9 Oiler team with Bucky Richardson at the helm with 3 or so games to go. Steve McNair being picked the next draft and Eddie George the next season before they left for Nashville. Bud announced he was talking the Mayor of Nashville in 95. If you think about it, its amazing they were able to stay .500. With all the praise Kubiak gets bringing a stable franchise to .500 and keeping him there you would think that it would be even harder if he had to do it with 4 different home fields in 3 different cities.

Runner
12-09-2009, 08:18 AM
And while the '94 Oilers were awful, the '87-'93 Oilers made the playoffs every year with '93 being the before Fisher high water mark.

The year before the lousy 2-14 that Kubiak took over, the Texans were 7-9. Then the massive coaching meltdown led to the bad record. In four years Kubiak's "high water mark", if I can use that term, is 8-8. That's one game better than the best year of the Carr teams.

Thorn
12-09-2009, 08:24 AM
The year before the lousy 2-14 that Kubiak took over, the Texans were 7-9. Then the massive coaching meltdown led to the bad record. In four years Kubiak's "high water mark", if I can use that term, is 8-8. That's one game better than the best year of the Carr teams.

Whether Kubiak stays or goes, I think we can all agree that after four years of Kubiak the team is in better shape than the four years of Capers. You gotta give him that even if you want him gone.

Runner
12-09-2009, 08:46 AM
The year before the lousy 2-14 that Kubiak took over, the Texans were 7-9. Then the massive coaching meltdown led to the bad record. In four years Kubiak's "high water mark", if I can use that term, is 8-8. That's one game better than the best year of the Carr teams.

Whether Kubiak stays or goes, I think we can all agree that after four years of Kubiak the team is in better shape than the four years of Capers. You gotta give him that even if you want him gone.

The team is undoubtedly in better shape now.* I'm just pointing out the fallacy in another oft-repeated argument.


*This does lead to the question of why such improvement does not show up in the W-L columns.

MojoMan
12-09-2009, 08:50 AM
Whether Kubiak stays or goes, I think we can all agree that after four years of Kubiak the team is in better shape than the four years of Capers. You gotta give him that even if you want him gone.

"Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"

Ronald Reagan - During his 1980 campaign against Jimmy Carter.

Mr. White
12-09-2009, 09:02 AM
"Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"

Ronald Reagan - During his 1980 campaign against Jimmy Carter.

Great quote by a great president. It's been the standard for electing a president ever since.

Too bad that logic doesn't work in the NFL.

No More 8-8's
12-09-2009, 09:20 AM
On the play you were talking about, they had Busing lined up over the
tightend. Busing decided to play the receiver, who was already covered
by Reeves. When Wilson went down, the Jags began abusing Busing.

Busing has been absolutely terrible. He was mainly the reason our defense was so terrible earlier in the year. When we replaced him, it was the best thing we could have done. Now with eugene wilson hurt, he had to play again, and still making terrible decisions. I dont want to ever see him play again.

John Busing < Matt Stevens

HOU-TEX
12-09-2009, 09:28 AM
Busing has been absolutely terrible. He was mainly the reason our defense was so terrible earlier in the year. When we replaced him, it was the best thing we could have done. Now with eugene wilson hurt, he had to play again, and still making terrible decisions. I dont want to ever see him play again.

John Busing < Matt Stevens

Dude, that's a bit of a stretch. While Busing may suck, Stevens created suck at the position.

No More 8-8's
12-09-2009, 09:48 AM
Dude, that's a bit of a stretch. While Busing may suck, Stevens created suck at the position.

At this point, with our record being bad, if we win the games we are supposed to (Seahawks & Rams) and lose the ones were supposed to ( Dolphins Pats). We will be 7-9 and could possibly have a TOP 10 Draft Pick!

If that happens all i can do is hope that Taylor Maize drops to us, and we can finally seal up that position that has haunted us for years.

HOU-TEX
12-09-2009, 09:53 AM
At this point, with our record being bad, if we win the games we are supposed to (Seahawks & Rams) and lose the ones were supposed to ( Dolphins Pats). We will be 7-9 and could possibly have a TOP 10 Draft Pick!

If that happens all i can do is hope that Taylor Maize drops to us, and we can finally seal up that position that has haunted us for years.

Yes, the position has been pathetic throughout the years, but if our draft history is any indication, we will not draft a S or RB on the first day.

No More 8-8's
12-09-2009, 09:57 AM
Yes, the position has been pathetic throughout the years, but if our draft history is any indication, we will not draft a S or RB on the first day.

Thats "IF" we have the same decision makers next year":winky::winky::winky:

Vinny
12-09-2009, 11:58 AM
"Are you better off now than you were four years ago?"

Ronald Reagan - During his 1980 campaign against Jimmy Carter.

Great quote by a great president. It's been the standard for electing a president ever since.

Too bad that logic doesn't work in the NFL.
So, not being able to win any game when it matters is good enough for you guys as long as you are not one of the 3 worst teams in the league?

Mr. White
12-09-2009, 12:01 PM
So, not being able to win any game when it matters is good enough for you guys as long as you are not one of the 3 worst teams in the league?

Not me. I said that logic doesn't work in the NFL.

4 years is a measuring stick for politics, but not pro football.

Ckw
12-09-2009, 12:03 PM
So, not being able to win any game when it matters is good enough for you guys as long as you are not one of the 3 worst teams in the league?

It sucks doesn't it? The scary thing is this might just be the exact mindset Mr. McNair has about the situation.

Gary seems like a great guy. I like Gary Kubiak. I am not a fan so far of Kubiak the Head Coach. IMO, all that needs to be said is this: our offense is supposed to be our bread and butter but finally when our defense begins to improve, our offense regresses. With Kubiak, it always seems like 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

Double Barrel
12-09-2009, 12:04 PM
So, not being able to win any game when it matters is good enough for you guys as long as you are not one of the 3 worst teams in the league?

Watch it! That kind of talk could get you labeled as a "bad fan" by Captain Sunshine and his merry sidekick, Myopiaboy ! :pirate:

http://www.makli.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Captain-Sunshine.jpg

DexmanC
12-09-2009, 12:10 PM
So, not being able to win any game when it matters is good enough for you guys as long as you are not one of the 3 worst teams in the league?

I've never seen a team go 8-8 like the Texans every year, and believe it's
a "successful season." We go 8-8 by going 1-5 in the division, thus losing
all tiebreakers for qualifying for the playoffs, then finish 7-3 against the rest
of the league.

The biggest problem Kubiak had was the fact we had FOUR CONSECUTIVE
DIVISION GAMES. This exposed the fallacy of his constant 8-8 records.
We'll NEVER get to the playoffs like this. We win at Tennessee, then get
swept by the Colts and Jags, and lose to the Titans on Monday Night for good
measure.

I'm SICK of this shit. But, hey.... Maybe I should get used to mediocre,
"looks good while they lose" football. I'll be happier for it.

BigBull17
12-09-2009, 12:15 PM
I've never seen a team go 8-8 like the Texans every year, and believe it's
a "successful season." We go 8-8 by going 1-5 in the division, thus losing
all tiebreakers for qualifying for the playoffs, then finish 7-3 against the rest
of the league.

The biggest problem Kubiak had was the fact we had FOUR CONSECUTIVE
DIVISION GAMES. This exposed the fallacy of his constant 8-8 records.
We'll NEVER get to the playoffs like this. We win at Tennessee, then get
swept by the Colts and Jags, and lose to the Titans on Monday Night for good
measure.

I'm SICK of this shit. But, hey.... Maybe I should get used to mediocre,
"looks good while they lose" football. I'll be happier for it.

This. I'm over it too.

Double Barrel
12-09-2009, 12:22 PM
I'm SICK of this shit. But, hey.... Maybe I should get used to mediocre,
"looks good while they lose" football. I'll be happier for it.

It would also qualify you for the "Good Fan Award" according to some folks. :headhurts: :bubbles:

Vinny
12-09-2009, 12:25 PM
I've never seen a team go 8-8 like the Texans every year, and believe it's
a "successful season." We go 8-8 by going 1-5 in the division, thus losing
all tiebreakers for qualifying for the playoffs, then finish 7-3 against the rest
of the league.

The biggest problem Kubiak had was the fact we had FOUR CONSECUTIVE
DIVISION GAMES. This exposed the fallacy of his constant 8-8 records.
We'll NEVER get to the playoffs like this. We win at Tennessee, then get
swept by the Colts and Jags, and lose to the Titans on Monday Night for good
measure.

I'm SICK of this shit. But, hey.... Maybe I should get used to mediocre,
"looks good while they lose" football. I'll be happier for it.

every fan base that misses the playoffs for multiple consecutive years is always a miffed fan base....except for here due to expansion I guess. If you saw the Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Giants go .500 or worse 8 years in a row their fans would be raising ten kinds of hell.

Hervoyel
12-09-2009, 12:33 PM
McClain is doing his cheerleading for the "Save Gary" cause too. Yesterday his blog was a steaming piece of excrement where he basically said that his gallery of experts (Bum Phillips, an unnamed defensive coordinator he knows, and some mystery scouts for other teams) disagreed and that the fans who want Gary fired don't want to hear what he had to say because our minds were made up already.

We look at "the emperor" and see that he's buck naked but you can already tell that Kubiak will be back next year. The support network is already spinning the season and circling the wagons. Now with Slaton going on IR they will start banging the "We had too many injuries" drum*. Their PR department on the radio and in print has already started softening up.


*Note: I do not have a problem with Slaton going on IR and I'm not saying they're putting him there to build Gary & Staff an excuse. I just think these people are responsible for the fact that their idea of a credible backup is Chris Brown. It's not that we don't have anybody who can play now. It's that they won't even play the best option on their own friggin roster much less try anybody else. Foster can't get a touch, Henry can't get on the team, and these guys have passed on Cedric Benson and Larry Johnson now in consecutive seasons. This team is running back stupid in the extreme.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 12:36 PM
McClain is doing his cheerleading for the "Save Gary" cause too. Yesterday his blog was a steaming piece of excrement where he basically said that his gallery of experts (Bum Phillips, an unnamed defensive coordinator he knows, and some mystery scouts for other teams) disagreed and that the fans who want Gary fired don't want to hear what he had to say because our minds were made up already.

We look at "the emperor" and see that he's buck naked but you can already tell that Kubiak will be back next year. The support network is already spinning the season and circling the wagons. Now with Slaton going on IR they will start banging the "We had too many injuries" drum*. Their PR department on the radio and in print has already started softening up.


*Note: I do not have a problem with Slaton going on IR and I'm not saying they're putting him there to build Gary & Staff an excuse. I just think these people are responsible for the fact that their idea of a credible backup is Chris Brown. It's not that we don't have anybody who can play now. It's that they won't even play the best option on their own friggin roster much less try anybody else. Foster can't get a touch, Henry can't get on the team, and these guys have passed on Cedric Benson and Larry Johnson now in consecutive seasons. This team is running back stupid in the extreme.
No marketing team circles the wagons like the Texans marketing team. (queue the espn music)

Texan_Bill
12-09-2009, 12:36 PM
every fan base that misses the playoffs for multiple consecutive years is always a miffed fan base....except for here due to expansion I guess. If you saw the Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Giants go .500 or worse 8 years in a row their fans would be raising ten kinds of hell.

Have you been reading the boards that you moderate?? I'm really worried and concerned for some of our members mental health and the possibility of having to talk them off the ledge. :turtle:

Thorn
12-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Have you been reading the boards that you moderate?? I'm really worried and concerned for some of our members mental health and the possibility of having to talk them off the ledge. :turtle:


meh....us oldtimers have been down this road to many times with the Oilers to get overly upset with the Texans. Yeah, sure, the Texans are my team and I want them to win a Super Bowl.

But you know what, they ain't gonna anytime soon. Am I upset? You betcha I am. I'm tired of this same old shit every year be it our old NFL team or our new one. But after a while it gets harder and harder to continue opening up old wounds when the scar tissue is so thick and deep.

So, I'll just get me some more beer, ***** some more, and wait for next season. It's a road I'm very familiar with now.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Have you been reading the boards that you moderate?? I'm really worried and concerned for some of our members mental health and the possibility of having to talk them off the ledge. :turtle:
I think that in life there are ledges and certain people who like to fling themselves off of said ledges....it may actually be good for the fan base. Culling the herd ain't so bad when a part of it is diseased in the brain. Its a variation of Mad Cow disease - Angry Bull disease. We do have a antidote, but we're gonna let the Government handle the distribution

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/rni/lowres/rnin632l.jpg

Hervoyel
12-09-2009, 12:47 PM
Yeah but you know sometimes it's fun to just let go and vent to the extreme a bit. I'm going right over that ledge and I'm going to do it with maniacle laughter the whole way down. I'm like "Rockhound" from Armaggedon and telling my wife that it's time to just pick out a nice spot to watch and "embrace the horror".

Seriously, Why does it have to be a grim thing? Why can't we have fun with it? Clayton Williams tells us that the weather is a lot like rape. If it's inevitable then you might as well lay back and enjoy it (or something ridiculous along those lines). Now Clayton was a complete imbecile but I can't help noticing that the Houston Texans can at times be a lot like the weather and also a lot like rape. I don't know where this is going but I'm sure it will all be explained in the presser.

Vinny
12-09-2009, 12:52 PM
Yeah but you know sometimes it's fun to just let go and vent to the extreme a bit. I'm going right over that ledge and I'm going to do it with maniacle laughter the whole way down. I'm like "Rockhound" from Armaggedon and telling my wife that it's time to just pick out a nice spot and "embrace the horror". Why does it have to be a grim thing? Why can't we have fun with it? Clayton Williams tells us that the weather is a lot like rape. If it's inevitable then you might as well lay back and enjoy it. Now Clayton was a complete imbecile but I can't help noticing that the Houston Texans can at times be a lot like the weather and also a lot like rape. I don't know where this is going but I'm sure it will all be explained in the presser.

reminds me of the Slim Pickens scene where Major Kong rides the bomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuauKKjPZI) at the end of Dr. Strangelove.

Hervoyel
12-09-2009, 12:55 PM
reminds me of the Slim Pickens scene where Major Kong rides the bomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuauKKjPZI) at the end of Dr. Strangelove.

Exactly! That was just the "feel" I was going for.

Texan_Bill
12-09-2009, 12:58 PM
meh....us oldtimers have been down this road to many times with the Oilers to get overly upset with the Texans. Yeah, sure, the Texans are my team and I want them to win a Super Bowl.

But you know what, they ain't gonna anytime soon. Am I upset? You betcha I am. I'm tired of this same old shit every year be it our old NFL team or our new one. But after a while it gets harder and harder to continue opening up old wounds when the scar tissue is so thick and deep.

So, I'll just get me some more beer, ***** some more, and wait for next season. It's a road I'm very familiar with now.

Right. I'm about where you're at...


I think that in life there are ledges and certain people who like to fling themselves off of said ledges....it may actually be good for the fan base. Culling the herd ain't so bad when a part of it is diseased in the brain. Its a variation of Mad Cow disease - Angry Bull disease. We do have a antidote, but we're gonna let the Government handle the distribution

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/rni/lowres/rnin632l.jpg

Why ya gotta go political?? :jk:

I don't have Angry Bull disease. What I've got is Angry Bill disease.

Meh, as Thorn said, I'll get some more beer, ***** some more and wait until next season. :cool:

Double Barrel
12-09-2009, 05:36 PM
meh....us oldtimers have been down this road to many times with the Oilers to get overly upset with the Texans. Yeah, sure, the Texans are my team and I want them to win a Super Bowl.

But you know what, they ain't gonna anytime soon. Am I upset? You betcha I am. I'm tired of this same old shit every year be it our old NFL team or our new one. But after a while it gets harder and harder to continue opening up old wounds when the scar tissue is so thick and deep.

So, I'll just get me some more beer, ***** some more, and wait for next season. It's a road I'm very familiar with now.

Can you imagine if internet forums had been around during the Oilers heyday?! :crazy: :mcnugget:

I liken all of this in my life to a "football bubble". When you step inside the bubble, it's all football all the time, and you let your emotions and expectations and delusions/illusions fly free.

But step outside of that bubble, and real life goes on and nothing inside of that bubble really matters and none of it pays the bills or deals with life's very real problems.

All of this is a direct result of being an Oilers fan and realizing, win or lose, I still have to go to work the next day and bread still costs money at the store and nothing that happens in football really impacts my life in any positive/negative way.

It's all about perspective. :spin:

houstonspartan
12-09-2009, 05:46 PM
I've never seen a team go 8-8 like the Texans every year, and believe it's
a "successful season." We go 8-8 by going 1-5 in the division, thus losing
all tiebreakers for qualifying for the playoffs, then finish 7-3 against the rest
of the league.

The biggest problem Kubiak had was the fact we had FOUR CONSECUTIVE
DIVISION GAMES. This exposed the fallacy of his constant 8-8 records.
We'll NEVER get to the playoffs like this. We win at Tennessee, then get
swept by the Colts and Jags, and lose to the Titans on Monday Night for good
measure.
I'm SICK of this shit. But, hey.... Maybe I should get used to mediocre,
"looks good while they lose" football. I'll be happier for it.


Correct. If you look deeper at those 8-8's, you will see an abysmal division record. Shamefull. People say that regular games count as much as division games so it shouldn't matter, but that's not true. You should KNOW your division opponents left and right, up and down. You play them TWICE a year. Those teams should be your FOCUS.

Instead, we ignore the division teams, and concentrate on beating the 49'ers.

houstonspartan
12-09-2009, 05:50 PM
McClain is doing his cheerleading for the "Save Gary" cause too. Yesterday his blog was a steaming piece of excrement where he basically said that his gallery of experts (Bum Phillips, an unnamed defensive coordinator he knows, and some mystery scouts for other teams) disagreed and that the fans who want Gary fired don't want to hear what he had to say because our minds were made up already.

We look at "the emperor" and see that he's buck naked but you can already tell that Kubiak will be back next year. The support network is already spinning the season and circling the wagons. Now with Slaton going on IR they will start banging the "We had too many injuries" drum*. Their PR department on the radio and in print has already started softening up.

*Note: I do not have a problem with Slaton going on IR and I'm not saying they're putting him there to build Gary & Staff an excuse. I just think these people are responsible for the fact that their idea of a credible backup is Chris Brown. It's not that we don't have anybody who can play now. It's that they won't even play the best option on their own friggin roster much less try anybody else. Foster can't get a touch, Henry can't get on the team, and these guys have passed on Cedric Benson and Larry Johnson now in consecutive seasons. This team is running back stupid in the extreme.


This is exactly what I told someone earlier today. Slaton's injury will just add to the "we were hit by the injury bug" excuse. First, it was Chester Pitts, then OD, now Slaton. Spin time.

People, THIS is why it is important to start strong early in the season. Later on, when people get injured, one or two losses won't hurt us as much. But we started off slow - as usual - bungled the start of the season, bungled the middle of the season, and now we have injures.

That first Jacksonville loss really killed us.

But, back to your point: You're right. They're about to spin the f--k out of this season.

houstonspartan
12-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Not me. I said that logic doesn't work in the NFL.

4 years is a measuring stick for politics, but not pro football.

This is the absolute lamest thing I have ever read on this board.

Wow. What a piss poor excuse. You know damn well that four years is PLENTY of time in the NFL, expecially with an owner that has opened his wallet.

Mr. White
12-09-2009, 06:02 PM
This is the absolute lamest thing I have ever read on this board.

Wow. What a piss poor excuse. You know damn well that four years is PLENTY of time in the NFL, expecially with an owner that has opened his wallet.

I guess nobody understands the comment because it's the second time I've gotten called out.

This means "It doesn't take 4 years to tell if a coach is a bum or not." Especially in this age of parity in the NFL.

This year was "the shit or get off the pot" year.

houstonspartan
12-09-2009, 06:06 PM
I guess nobody understands the comment because it's the second time I've gotten called out.

This means "It doesn't take 4 years to tell if a coach is a bum or not." Especially in this age of parity in the NFL.

This year was "the shit or get off the pot" year.

LOL!!

Ok. My bad for misunderstanding.

I agree. And apologies for the harsh response.

DexmanC
12-09-2009, 07:33 PM
I guess nobody understands the comment because it's the second time I've gotten called out.

This means "It doesn't take 4 years to tell if a coach is a bum or not." Especially in this age of parity in the NFL.

This year was "the shit or get off the pot" year.

Some would just prefer Kubes grabbed another magazine off the rack.

rollinstone18
12-09-2009, 07:45 PM
i'm alright with letting kubiak finish out his contract.

Thorn
12-09-2009, 07:47 PM
Some would just prefer Kubes grabbed another magazine off the rack.

How about "A Guide to Drafting Running Backs" by Bum Phillips?

He could then use "A Guide to Offseason Planning" by Charlie Casserly to wipe with. :)