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dalemurphy
12-07-2009, 07:03 AM
Assuming a coaching change is imminent, what do we do with Rick Smith?

Let Rick Smith handle the coaching search?- Get to keep him as GM... however, that will eliminate some of the top choices like Cowher, Gruden, etc... I guess Shanahan would still be in play and possibly a guy like Greg Williams.

McNair runs an independent search for a head coach and allows his choice to make decisions about the GM, etc...?

McNair hires a new GM, who then brings in his own head coach?

Malloy
12-07-2009, 07:07 AM
This is actually one of the reason that I'm not on the pink soap bandwagon already, the 'fear' of losing Rick Smith if Kubiak leaves too.

I really want Smith to stay, I thing he's VERY good at drafting and getting players from FA. Kubiak, well... I'm so-so right now, he does some really good things, but come gameday, his player selection and playcalling is ignorant, bordering arrogant.

DexmanC
12-07-2009, 07:54 AM
I feel ya on that. My pink soap is for Kubiak only, but losing Rick Smith
would probably hurt the team even more. One has done his job, and the
other make dumb decisions and ARROGANTLY refuses to switch it up.

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 08:12 AM
I'm on the fence with Rick Smith.

He's good at bringing in guys off the street for the minimum.

Some of his big-name FA signings have been god-awful. His draft results have been hit-and-miss.

It's hard to tell how much of it has been Kubiak and how much has been Smith.

nunusguy
12-07-2009, 08:16 AM
Smith is the young African-American GM and face of management that gives McNair the look of a progressive, PC organization that is probably important to the owner.
Did he make the choices, was his input significant in the Draft picks since he's
been here ? If so that's certainly worth something because Cushing and Duane Brown have been productive top picks even though the wisdom of the Okoye choice is obviously dubious. FA acquisions are another story.
If McNair were to replace Kubiak with a non big-name coach, keeping Smith might be the way to go but if he really wants to get a high-profile guy like Cowher then that calibre coach probably wants a dual role of HC-GM meaning
Smiths would be gone.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2009, 08:17 AM
I am assuming that Smith stays simply from the fact that he is signed through 2012.

Kaiser Toro
12-07-2009, 08:19 AM
If they keep Rick Smith, I believe they would have to involve a consultant for the coaching hire.

I think they should keep him given the state of the CBA, and his work to date.

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 08:21 AM
FWIW, here's (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/12/at_least_the_te.html) what Richard Justice says about the situation.

It seems likely that Bob McNair will soon be looking for another head coach and maybe another general manager. I doubt he has any clue where to start looking. I could be wrong, but he doesn't strike me as an NFL junkie that sits up night studying other organizations and trying to figure out what he could learn from them.

If he asked for advice, I'd tell him to telephone Ernie Accorsi and have him play the role of Dan Reeves in the upcoming evaluation process.

Bob needs to get a good strong general manager in place, preferably a proven general manager, a general manager with skins on the wall. If he has confidence in Rick Smith, so be it.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 08:21 AM
Why does everyone like Rick Smith? Other than Cushing and Diles none of his draft picks deserve to be starting. Okoye and Brown may eventually develop, but right now they are not living up to their draft status.

GP
12-07-2009, 08:31 AM
Rick Smith does a good job, IMO.

It seems, unless it's being covered up somehow, that he does what he can do and stays out of the way of the coach.

It seems that he scrutinizes contracts and doesn't give away the farm, thus keeping us from being plunged into cap hell.

I don't know if Smith has to go if Kubiak goes. You guys can check my post history on this topic: I've always said that the REAL "keeper" from the Kubiak era will be Rick Smith, that he NEEDS to stay aboard even if Kubiak gets let go. I think he does his job pretty well, in spite of everything he inherited from Casserly.

Gurry Kubiak is doomed. The Jacksonville game was even worse than the previous three losses, IMO. It was damning of Kubiak's gameday management. It was arrogance in the red zone, trying to be "cute" instead of going with our bread-and-butter (AJ and two WRs who are good "possession" type receivers). In a red zone situation, you toss it to AJ or your two possession-type WRs who just thrive on short routes.

Plus, how this coaching staff didn't know that MJD would run the ball over and over and over and over again, at end of game, is beyond me. We should have stuffed the run, we'd have gotten the ball back, and we might would have scored a TD unless Chris Brown was the one who had the shot at the TD.

chicagotexan2
12-07-2009, 08:31 AM
Kubiak has been mediocre and it's time to go. Rick Smith has also been mediocre and I would not be crushed if he was fired too.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2009, 08:32 AM
FWIW, here's (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/12/at_least_the_te.html) what Richard Justice says about the situation.

I more than normal, I would ignore anything that Justice says about Rick Smith. Previous blogs/columns from him indicate Justice he has some personal/professional issue with Smith.

dalemurphy
12-07-2009, 08:34 AM
Why does everyone like Rick Smith? Other than Cushing and Diles none of his draft picks deserve to be starting. Okoye and Brown may eventually develop, but right now they are not living up to their draft status.

Jacoby Jones
Zac Diles
Kasey Studdard
Duane Brown
Steve Slaton
Cushing
Barwin
G. Quin
James Casey

all appear to be good draft picks... Okoye isn't exactly a horrible miss. There are very few misses (Bennett, Adibi?, Molden?) But, more impressive than his drafts, are his FAs, particularly the ones he's found under the rocks:

Dressen
Briesel
E. Wilson
Pollard
Reeves
Antonio Smith
C Myers
M. Schaub (trade)
Deljuan Robinson
Bulman
Kevin Walter (trade)
Andre Davis
Rashod Butler
Ryan Moats
Shaun Cody

PHAROAH
12-07-2009, 08:34 AM
Rick Smith has done pretty decent especially in the 1st round and the coaching staff had some say in those picks as well and lets not talk about the coaching on the field as that has been horrible. Kubiak is gone for sure and Rick Smith could be back in the fold and if so Shanahan is the #1 choice.

nunusguy
12-07-2009, 08:37 AM
Plus, how this coaching staff didn't know that MJD would run the ball over and over and over and over again, at end of game, is beyond me. We should have stuffed the run, we'd have gotten the ball back, and we might would have scored a TD unless Chris Brown was the one who had the shot at the TD.
Everyone watching the game knew that was going to happen, but inexplicably the Texans couldn't stop him after doing so all game long. I dunno but the defense appeared fatigued to me ? Maybe our defense was on the field longer than I realized but they were sluggish at the end, got their hands on MJD but couldn't bring him down.

4Texans
12-07-2009, 08:38 AM
I am assuming that Smith stays simply from the fact that he is signed through 2012.

I would have to agree. I'm on the fence about Smith. If Kubiak is let go, I can't see one of the Big Name coaches coming in here, and Smith having more power over personnel then the coach. Our drafts and FA have improved, but I don't see Smith getting 100% of all the credit. Also, IMO you don't let Smith do the search and hire for a coach.

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 08:40 AM
Another aspect that hasn't been mentioned here....

Demeco and OD should have been re-signed before they hit free agency.

That's on Rick Smith.

dalemurphy
12-07-2009, 08:42 AM
Another aspect that hasn't been mentioned here....

Demeco and OD should have been re-signed before they hit free agency.

That's on Rick Smith.

Geniusness of Rick Smith! He played hardball instead of letting the players dictate terms. Now, because of the collective bargaining situation, Demeco and OD are looking at 2 more years as RFAs. They will have to agree to a reasonable deal or face not getting a real contract until 2012.

MannyFresh
12-07-2009, 08:43 AM
Assuming a coaching change is imminent, what do we do with Rick Smith?

Let Rick Smith handle the coaching search?- Get to keep him as GM... however, that will eliminate some of the top choices like Cowher, Gruden, etc... I guess Shanahan would still be in play and possibly a guy like Greg Williams.

McNair runs an independent search for a head coach and allows his choice to make decisions about the GM, etc...?

McNair hires a new GM, who then brings in his own head coach?


How about a GM and coach who aren't boys....this Kubiak and Rick Smith buddy system doesn't work...

JB
12-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Another aspect that hasn't been mentioned here....

Demeco and OD should have been re-signed before they hit free agency.

That's on Rick Smith.

They have not hit free agency yet... nor will they after this season

nero THE zero
12-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Okoye isn't exactly a horrible miss.
Really? You pass on the best LB in football for a rotational DT and it isn't exactly a horrible miss?

Scooter
12-07-2009, 08:46 AM
FWIW, here's (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/12/at_least_the_te.html) what Richard Justice says about the situation.

bill gates couldnt pay me to click on a richard justice link, and the first line of that quote is another reason why. is there another team in the nfl that's accumulated more talent in those 3 and a half years? actually, that "3 and a half" is being generous considering casserly being the gm when kubiak started and everyone seems to miss that mike sherman put us another step backwards with his influence (gato, green, flanagan, etc). this is the biggest area that i defend kubiak, and as such rick smith, in that we've done a MONSTROUS job building young talent in an extremely short amount of time.

HoustonFrog
12-07-2009, 08:48 AM
Why does everyone like Rick Smith? Other than Cushing and Diles none of his draft picks deserve to be starting. Okoye and Brown may eventually develop, but right now they are not living up to their draft status.

I'm with you. The drafts have had some hits but free agency hasn't been stellar. Yeah you will get some guys from the scrap heap that look good at times....Pollard and some others..but that doesn't erase the Ahman Greens or picks like Amobi. Orlovsky seems like an expensive 3rd stringer. Jacques Reeves...not impressed. Obviouuly there are more good and bad.

So with all that said, I don't see overwhelming success or abject failure. So I don't think he is necessarily untouchable.

I'm still amazed that there are so many drinking kool-aid still about talent, the team, coaching, etc. I see no problem with blowing it up. I don't think it is a reach that guys like AJ and others are tired of it and want a new direction. You can tell when they asked AJ about the half-back pass yesterday

TheRealJoker
12-07-2009, 08:50 AM
Depends on who you blame for our personnel deficiencies:

Did he decide not to pick up a legitimate safety until week 3?

Did he decide not to significantly upgrade the depth on the OL outside of drafting a rookie? Not bringing in competition for Myers?

Did he decide to stand pat at RB, if Slaton has a sophomore slump we're stuck with what we've got?

Did he decide not to get a legitimate run stuffing DT?

He has done well drafting and adding talent to certain positions but we still have obvious weaknesses that he failed to address. If Cowher wants GM power, I say give it to him because Rick Smith is overrated on this board. Our overall talent is upgraded (mainly at the skill positions, but he only drafted Jacoby, Casey, Hill and Slaton) but our interior OL is the worst in the league because we didn't have quality depth at the guard positions and we didn't bother to bring in anyone who had a chance of beating out Chris Myers.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 08:50 AM
Jacoby Jones too immature to be trusted as a starter
Zac Diles
Kasey Studdard terrible
Duane Brown on pace for 12 sacks
Steve Slaton fumble, fumblia, fumblroosky
Cushing
Barwin developmental project
G. Quin has been ok for a 4th rounder, but is being over hyped by fans
James Casey James "I fall down when I catch the ball" Casey hasn't been worth passing up on our other huge needs

all appear to be good draft picks... Okoye isn't exactly a horrible miss. There are very few misses (Bennett, Adibi?, Molden?) But, more impressive than his drafts, are his FAs, particularly the ones he's found under the rocks:

Dressen a quality backup at best
Briesel a quality backup at best
E. Wilson if he could tackle and play more than 6 games a year he would be ok
Pollard if he could cover he would be a quality starters. If he could cover
Reeves has been pretty solid, minus the last 2 games, but was terrible last year
Antonio Smith is an average pass rusher, and a poor run defender for $35,000,000
C Myers sucks
M. Schaub (trade) Kubes guy. Smith just worked out the details
Deljuan Robinson not even starting despite our DT woes
Bulman quality backup at best
Kevin Walter (trade) Brought in by Casserly in 2006
Andre Davis one good season, then was given a huge payday that he's done nothing to earn
Rashod Butler Hasn't seen the field. There's no way to say if he's a good or bad pickup.
Ryan Moats He's been a decent spell back
Shaun Cody quality depth at best

bold

TheRealJoker
12-07-2009, 08:50 AM
Really? You pass on the best LB in football for a rotational DT and it isn't exactly a horrible miss?

Lets not forget top 3 CB Darelle Revis...

dalemurphy
12-07-2009, 08:52 AM
Really? You pass on the best LB in football for a rotational DT and it isn't exactly a horrible miss?

9 other teams passed on Willis, not to mention the ones that could've traded up for him but didn't. You can't judge drafts by the players the team didn't select. I'm not going to complain about the '06 draft because we didn't draft Colston in the 7th round.

Okoye wasn't a good pick. But, other than last season, he has been a decent DT... Everyone misses. I'm just saying it wasn't a horrible pick. Not good, though... that's for sure.

GP
12-07-2009, 08:56 AM
Everyone watching the game knew that was going to happen, but inexplicably the Texans couldn't stop him after doing so all game long. I dunno but the defense appeared fatigued to me ? Maybe our defense was on the field longer than I realized but they were sluggish at the end, got their hands on MJD but couldn't bring him down.

IIRC, we were going at them with a four-man front. And the LBs were in some sort of man-zone read or something.

MJD had access to holes on the line of scrimmage that had been previously closed, consistently, by the Texans d-line and LBs.

In key situations, we have not been spying the other team's main weapon. Brian Cushing is THE guy to use as a spy on people like VY and MJD.

But this team's coach (Kubiak) can't see that, I suppose. He's got his head buried in the Denny's menu, trying to play o-coord and get ready for his next chance to shine...

This is why I got mad when we banned JJ from going to the game for missing meetings. His missing a meeting isn't what costs this team. Gary Kubiak is what costs this team. And even if we had a superstar coach like Cowher, he's not going to keep a playmaker at home like Gary did. He's going to play the playmaker, and fine him until he's poor and can't afford to miss meetings.

So all the way around, Gurry Kubiak has plotted his own demise.

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2009, 09:02 AM
9 other teams passed on Willis, not to mention the ones that could've traded up for him but didn't. You can't judge drafts by the players the team didn't select. I'm not going to complain about the '06 draft because we didn't draft Colston in the 7th round.

Okoye wasn't a good pick. But, other than last season, he has been a decent DT... Everyone misses. I'm just saying it wasn't a horrible pick. Not good, though... that's for sure.

At the Senior Bowl , Okoye who was at 287 lbs , was blowing by the OL in individual drills . In a game when space gets tighter ... he's not so hot . HWNSNBR did really well at practice in the Senior bowl but stunk in the game .

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 09:06 AM
Another thing I consider is how uneven this team is.

We have more WR's than we can get on the field. I have no idea WTF they were thinking when they drafted Anthony Hill and James Casey in back-to-back rounds.

The fact that Antoine Caldwell and Anthony Hill have barely seen the field is a massive fail. This tells me that they were at best reaches and at worst busts.

Meanwhile, we're still waiting for a Safety and our D-Line is a bunch of underperformers.

Runner
12-07-2009, 09:09 AM
It will be interesting to see what happens this off-season with player contracts. Some players who wanted to renegotiate this year were put off because deals couldn't get done, even though the team wanted to extend them. It's likely that other players as well as those will want to extend/rengotiate this year. For instance, what if Schaub looks at his numbers, his backups, and what other QBs make around the league, and decides that the roster bonus he is due isn't good enough? Note: I've heard nothing of the kind about Schaub; this is just an example of the type of thing that might happen.

Will another season of Rick Smith wielding the big stick and extending no one be a good solution for the long term success of the franchise?

Interesting times.

Scooter
12-07-2009, 09:16 AM
i'm suprised to see smith get knocked by his drafts, especially considering he's missing a second rounder for schaub and hasnt been around long enough to see any develope. given that in his 3 seasons we've landed 3 franchise players at left tackle, sam linebacker, and runningback - the scale takes a huge swing if caldwell (who absolutely looks the part) and barwin develope. glover quin appears to be everything we want, but then again texans rookie cornerbacks seem to do that. studdard, bennett, okoye, okam, jacoby, and more are at most their 3rd season. some wont, but i guarantee a few of these players will develope into the quality depth and possible starting positions they were drafted to provide.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 09:17 AM
Geniusness of Rick Smith! He played hardball instead of letting the players dictate terms. Now, because of the collective bargaining situation, Demeco and OD are looking at 2 more years as RFAs. They will have to agree to a reasonable deal or face not getting a real contract until 2012.

Agreed. Now you have an OD coming off an injury and DeMeco who both can be made as RFAs now that the uncapped year is imminent (actually has been imminent for almost 2 years now to be honest)

It may not do a lot for loyalty for those guys but what are those players doing that is so irreplaceable. Both are good players but they aren't doing anything that can't be replaced with less money and spend the savings on areas of true need (DT, C, CB, FS)

That being said, Rick Smith probably has to go in order to get one of the top coaching candidates in town.

KUBIAK SUCKS

beerlover
12-07-2009, 09:18 AM
It's funny how soon people forget (in general not this board as much) just how bad this organization was prior to Kubiak & Smith. When it comes to the draft & free agency they had no equal :firehair:

nero THE zero
12-07-2009, 09:18 AM
9 other teams passed on Willis, not to mention the ones that could've traded up for him but didn't. You can't judge drafts by the players the team didn't select.
Yea, some teams passed on him for good players (Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson, LaRon Landry) and some passed on him for bad players (JaMarcus Russell, Ted Ginn, Jamaal Anderson.) We happen to be in the latter catagory.

And, you can't judge drafts by players you didn't select, but by ones you did select. And we selected a mediocre (at best) player. The fact that there was a better player available (that most Texans fans would've rather had) is simply salt in the wound.

TheRealJoker
12-07-2009, 09:20 AM
Agreed. Now you have an OD coming off an injury and DeMeco who both can be made as RFAs now that the uncapped year is imminent (actually has been imminent for almost 2 years now to be honest)

It may not do a lot for loyalty for those guys but what are those players doing that is so irreplaceable. Both are good players but they aren't doing anything that can't be replaced with less money and spend the savings on areas of true need (DT, C, CB, FS)

That being said, Rick Smith probably has to go in order to get one of the top coaching candidates in town.

KUBIAK SUCKS

We are 0-4 without OD...

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 09:37 AM
We are 0-4 without OD...

not hating on OD, I am just saying there are other tight ends out there that are good and that aren't wanting ProBowl money.

i do realize that not having OD has been a problem especially on 3rd downs for Schaub

GP
12-07-2009, 09:38 AM
We have lots to worry about:

1. A lack of a 100% true blue, bonified starting running back who can lock up that spot.

2. Owen Daniels might not be the same guy ever again. Do we trust that Hill and/or Casey are the guys to replace OD in an effective manner? If not, does this team consider a TE in the first round now?

3. DeMeco should get a new deal no matter what happens for 2010 with the CBA and the NFL and the NFLPA. He just SHOULD get a new deal. I wanted to see how he did this year, to prove he's "with it" and the dude IS with it.

4. Andre Johnson, IMO, is going to want some sort of big splash to be kept ont his team. I don't think bringing back Gary Kubiak is going to do that.

It's time for this team to go BIG.

They need to do a TON when the season is over.

We need a big splash in these areas:

1. A free agency head-turner, spending a lot of that supposed cap space we have (and making it COUNT. I want a playmaker).

2. New head coach. And that's a huge gamble for any team in the position of needing a new head coach. Probably THE biggest gamble for any team.

3. Re-sign DeMeco and show the team that great play is rewarded properly.

4. Incorporate Jacoby Jones into this offense or trade the guy. But don't continue the farce. I bet there will be 20 teams interested in his playmaking ability, and they won't hesitate to grab him. They need to make up their mind.

5. Find a true-blue 100% bonified running back. If you have to trade up to get Mark Ingram, if he's THAT good (which he looks verrry good to me) then you do it. You give away other draft picks to move out of 15th or 18th and go get the guy. Have some stones. Make a splash for a change.

6. You absolutely DO draft a Qb in higher rounds, trying to sit him and see if Matt Schaub can be "the" guy. With the multiple shoulder injuries...I'm not sure he's the guy. Throwing lots of passes into the dirt and behind receivers. And this was being done BEFORE the injury, btw.

The defense is actually playing hard-nosed football. Somehow, the d-coord has found a way to tak ehis squad and make things work. Good job to Frank Bush, except for failing to spy VY and MJD.

Runner
12-07-2009, 09:41 AM
... in his 3 seasons we've landed 3 franchise players at left tackle, sam linebacker, and runningback ...

Can you define what you mean by "franchise player"? I don't think I have the same definition.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 09:45 AM
Can you define what you mean by "franchise player"? I don't think I have the same definition.

Brown sure as hell isn't all that good of a player. He ain't a liability but he isn't all that great. Slaton is definitely not all that great.

Now Cushing looks like he is going to be a good, if not great, one but that is it. Smith has done well but he hasn't done so much that he should be deemed irreplaceable.

Just sayin'. I guess I have never been a huge fan of the Duane Brown pick and probably never will be. He seems like just another guy to me.

Goatcheese
12-07-2009, 09:48 AM
Brown sure as hell isn't all that good of a player. He ain't a liability but he isn't all that great. Slaton is definitely not all that great.

Now Cushing looks like he is going to be a good, if not great, one but that is it. Smith has done well but he hasn't done so much that he should be deemed irreplaceable.

Just sayin'. I guess I have never been a huge fan of the Duane Brown pick and probably never will be. He seems like just another guy to me.

Getting Matty Ice Pack clobbered 20-30 times every year makes him a liability.

GP
12-07-2009, 09:48 AM
Is this GM here because of Gary Kubiak?

We hired Gary, then later hired Rick Smith (retaining Casserly through the draft). AND...Smith is from Denver.

Maybe this was discussed on previous threads the past few years, but I don't recall the conversation(s) on it.

Is this GM directly handcuffed to this head coach? Is he here because Kubiak is here? Are they tied together? Could Smith tolerate ANY new head coach, or would there be a clash because the new coach might not be a guy like Kubiak (and thus Smith can't work well with someone who is not similar to Gary Kubiak)?

This is going to be an interesting process once the season is over.

Verrrry interesting.

Second Honeymoon
12-07-2009, 09:50 AM
Getting Matty Ice Pack clobbered 20-30 times every year makes him a liability.

I won't go that far as labeling him a liability but he sure isn't as good as some people seem to think he is. Just because the Texans drafted him in the 1st Round doesn't make him a good player. Just because San Diego was supposedly going to draft him if we didn't in the 1st Round doesn't make him a good player or a good pick.

His play has made him just another guy. Nothing special and definitely not something that Rick Smith should be able to hang his hat on.

Scooter
12-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Can you define what you mean by "franchise player"? I don't think I have the same definition.

franchise for me means we've acquired a starter for the tenure of an extended contract (4-7 years), if not a much longer career in the city. while there are imperfections i havent missed, and some i've been leading the charge on (nobody's railed harder on slaton than me around here), we've hit those 3. we're not going to draft a 1st round left tackle or sam or runningback - those 3 positions are taken care of. an arguement can be made for runningback but we're not looking for a replacement, we're looking for a compliment.

TexanBacker93
12-07-2009, 10:01 AM
I guess there are 3 possible scenarios to look at:

1) The players are good enough to be winning more than we are doing right now.

2) The players aren't as good as we thought and the fact that we're destined to be 8-8 means the coaching is terrific.

3) We need better players and we need someone to utilize them better.

I think we still have holes, but I think the talent that is on this team is more than enough to be 8-4 or 9-3 right now instead of 5-7. I think Smith would keep his job depending on who McNair would be targeting.

I guess there is a 4th option: Both the coaching and the talent level are great and this team is doing a terrific job. They just need another year of seasoning to put it all together. Or something along those lines.

TexanBacker93
12-07-2009, 10:04 AM
Is this GM here because of Gary Kubiak?

We hired Gary, then later hired Rick Smith (retaining Casserly through the draft). AND...Smith is from Denver.

Maybe this was discussed on previous threads the past few years, but I don't recall the conversation(s) on it.

Is this GM directly handcuffed to this head coach? Is he here because Kubiak is here? Are they tied together? Could Smith tolerate ANY new head coach, or would there be a clash because the new coach might not be a guy like Kubiak (and thus Smith can't work well with someone who is not similar to Gary Kubiak)?

This is going to be an interesting process once the season is over.

Verrrry interesting.

That is something to be considered. Those 2 do work well together and I do think they have similar philosophies.

Runner
12-07-2009, 10:17 AM
Can you define what you mean by "franchise player"? I don't think I have the same definition.

franchise for me means we've acquired a starter for the tenure of an extended contract (4-7 years), if not a much longer career in the city. while there are imperfections i havent missed, and some i've been leading the charge on (nobody's railed harder on slaton than me around here), we've hit those 3. we're not going to draft a 1st round left tackle or sam or runningback - those 3 positions are taken care of. an arguement can be made for runningback but we're not looking for a replacement, we're looking for a compliment.

For the sake of this point, I'll narrow this discussion down to Brown at left tackle. I consider a young Orlando Pace an example of a "franchise" left tackle. A team drafts him, starts him immediately, and (barring injury) doesn't worry about the position in the long term and doesn't worry about the position in the short term i.e. game to game matchups.

Calling Duane Brown a franchise left tackle dilutes the term. He's an adequate starter for this franchise. That's about it.

TimeKiller
12-07-2009, 10:22 AM
I could care less.

GP
12-07-2009, 10:23 AM
For the sake of this point, I'll narrow this discussion down to Brown at left tackle. I consider a young Orlando Pace an example of a "franchise" left tackle. A team drafts him, starts him immediately, and (barring injury) doesn't worry about the position in the long term and doesn't worry about the position in the short term i.e. game to game matchups.

Calling Duane Brown a franchise left tackle dilutes the term. He's an adequate starter for this franchise. That's about it.

Would Duane Brown be better fit for Guard instead of Tackle?

He doesn't appear to be a "franchise" LT to me. Adequate is a good term.

nunusguy
12-07-2009, 10:28 AM
For the sake of this point, I'll narrow this discussion down to Brown at left tackle. I consider a young Orlando Pace an example of a "franchise" left tackle. A team drafts him, starts him immediately, and (barring injury) doesn't worry about the position in the long term and doesn't worry about the position in the short term i.e. game to game matchups.

Calling Duane Brown a franchise left tackle dilutes the term. He's an adequate starter for this franchise. That's about it.
That's like saying you consider a young Jon Elway a franchise QB. Well, yea I guess so. But using Orlando Pace as an example is kinda setting the bar to an unrealistic comparison, don't you think ? Pace is of course a future HOFamer.
Getting Duane Brown in the late or mid twenties is value IMO, and that's not even including the boot Smith received in the trade (Slaton).
Now if you want to complain about Okoye, you get no argument from me about the mistake of using the 10th overall on that pick.

Scooter
12-07-2009, 10:47 AM
For the sake of this point, I'll narrow this discussion down to Brown at left tackle. I consider a young Orlando Pace an example of a "franchise" left tackle. A team drafts him, starts him immediately, and (barring injury) doesn't worry about the position in the long term and doesn't worry about the position in the short term i.e. game to game matchups.

Calling Duane Brown a franchise left tackle dilutes the term. He's an adequate starter for this franchise. That's about it.

well, you've railed on me for putting charles spencer into the hall of fame, and by that count no i dont think we've landed an all world guy lol. where you're not seeing orlando pace for 15 years, i do see a more than above average guy who will perform at a high level for a long time and is capable of handling his job. we're not going to get adrian peterson and chris johnson backing him up, with peyton throwing the ball to andre johnson and randy moss ... your suggestion of franchise appears to be more of an all-world superstar than a 5-10 year "franchise" starter. duane brown isnt the best player at his position, but he's a very good second year player that's only going to get better and will be able to man his position at a very high level for hopefully a very long time. he's not orlando pace, but who is?

actually, rereading your post. didnt you just describe duane brown? we drafted him early, started immediately (rotating a backup because of rookie conditioning), we wont be addressing the position barring injury and by early indicators will extend his contract as starter, and shift protection to his side as rarely as any team in the league. an easy arguement can be made that that's because winston is much weaker in pass pro, but considering who duane has to go against it should be more than a wash. schaub's putting up top 5 numbers with a 2nd year player protecting his blind side.

gtexan02
12-07-2009, 10:54 AM
This team has a lot of talent. Not every pick is ever going to work out for everyone. Smith has done an excellent job imo

gtexan02
12-07-2009, 10:56 AM
For the sake of this point, I'll narrow this discussion down to Brown at left tackle. I consider a young Orlando Pace an example of a "franchise" left tackle. A team drafts him, starts him immediately, and (barring injury) doesn't worry about the position in the long term and doesn't worry about the position in the short term i.e. game to game matchups.

Calling Duane Brown a franchise left tackle dilutes the term. He's an adequate starter for this franchise. That's about it.

So now in order to be a franchise player, you have to be a future hall of famer? C'mon, this is a huge stretch and you know it. There are plenty of reliable LTs that come no where near Orlando Pace and yet the team considers that position set.

Brown isn't going to make 10 pro bowls, but he's certainly more reliable than anyone we've ever had on that edge before.

Runner
12-07-2009, 11:00 AM
Well, we have different interpretations of "franchise left tackle". No surprise there.

I don't think Pace is setting the bar too high; to me he is a perfect example of a franchise player. I've watched him agaist Freeny, and he just handled him. That is what I mean by not worrying about a game day matchup. I think there is some worry in the Texans organization when Freeny is slated to line up across from Brown.

If the interpretation of franchise left tackle means he starts for this franchise and isn't in immediate need of an upgrade, then Brown is a franchise left tackle.

Words like great, franchise, etc. get tossed around so much they start to lose their meaning.

Runner
12-07-2009, 11:10 AM
How many franchise players do people think the Texans have on the roster right now?

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 11:11 AM
Scrap this entire regime. After this year the Texans don't need anything traced back to this entire 4 year failure. SMith has made some pretty good draft picks, but he hasn't done anything overly spectacular that plenty of other teams have been able to do in the draft. He's been a decent GM in the draft.

As far as free agency goes, he's been dreadful. He hasn't hardly brought in anyone since he's been here in the off season that's been worth a damn. Keeping SMith around will most likely hinder our chances at certain HC's like Cowher and Holmgren any way. I'd like to get our hands on an experienced GM or get a HC that we can trust that can handle both duties. I normally don't like HC"s to have both duties, but I'm sick of these experiments and I'm sick of playing the waiting game. If people want to credit Rick SMith so much, they have to remember that Kubes played a large role in a lot of the draft picks as well, some credit goes back to Kubes there as well and it's not like Smith made all these great picks that Kubes just screwed up. One way or the other, this entire regime has been a failure and it all needs to be scrapped.

Runner
12-07-2009, 11:13 AM
Btw, some of you did change my mind about the "start immediately" statement. I certainly consider Brady a franchise player, and he didn't start right away. He certainly latched onto the job when he got his chance though.

nero THE zero
12-07-2009, 11:19 AM
How many franchise players do people think the Texans have on the roster right now?

I'm with you on this, Runner.

To me, a franchise player is someone you build your team around. Accordingly, we have one of those guys and his name is Andre Johnson.

I think you could argue a case for Mario and/or Cushing being those guys as well, but I'll stick with AJ as our sole franchise player ATM.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2009, 11:19 AM
So now in order to be a franchise player, you have to be a future hall of famer? C'mon, this is a huge stretch and you know it. There are plenty of reliable LTs that come no where near Orlando Pace and yet the team considers that position set.

Brown isn't going to make 10 pro bowls, but he's certainly more reliable than anyone we've ever had on that edge before.

It is absolutley not a stretch for the idea of franchise players to be considered the very best at a position...i.e. guys you build an entire frachise around. Because some one starts for you 8-10 years does not make him one of the best in the league, it makes him a starting quality player. The definition am seeing here Chester Pitts is franchise LG, I mean has started pretty much unchallenged for his entire career and been a reliable player.

NitroGSXR
12-07-2009, 11:22 AM
Let's just ask Andre Johnson What he wants us to do. Remember, there were short rumors of a threat to force a trade or something. Whatever Andre wants, he gets is how i see us salvaging this. He's a once in a lifetime player. C'mon Texans. Get on with it.

Ckw
12-07-2009, 11:23 AM
Franchise players: AJ, Demeco, maybe Mario, and Cushing.

HOU-TEX
12-07-2009, 11:24 AM
How many franchise players do people think the Texans have on the roster right now?

I'm with you on this, Runner.

To me, a franchise player is someone you build your team around. Accordingly, we have one of those guys and his name is Andre Johnson.

I think you could argue a case for Mario and/or Cushing being those guys as well, but I'll stick with AJ as our sole franchise player ATM.

I can agree. IMO, AJ is our only proven franchise player. D-Ryans, Cush and MW have the "potential", with D-Ryans being the closer of the 3.

m5kwatts
12-07-2009, 11:27 AM
Best Case Scenario:
He stays on and works with the new head coach and its a smooth transition

Worst Case Scenario:
He stays on and our list of head coaching possibilities shrinks because guys like Cowher want their own GM in place

beerlover
12-07-2009, 11:28 AM
I can agree. IMO, AJ is our only proven franchise player. D-Ryans, Cush and MW have the "potential", with D-Ryans being the closer of the 3.

what more should Cushing have done to make your "franchise player" list (As a rookie he is the #1 OLB in a 4-3)?

Scooter
12-07-2009, 11:31 AM
Well, we have different interpretations of "franchise left tackle". No surprise there.

I don't think Pace is setting the bar too high; to me he is a perfect example of a franchise player. I've watched him agaist Freeny, and he just handled him. That is what I mean by not worrying about a game day matchup. I think there is some worry in the Texans organization when Freeny is slated to line up across from Brown.

If the interpretation of franchise left tackle means he starts for this franchise and isn't in immediate need of an upgrade, then Brown is a franchise left tackle.

Words like great, franchise, etc. get tossed around so much they start to lose their meaning.

i think that's where you're going to get most or all of the arguements against. pace for several seasons was the best player at his position ... he quite literally set the bar for today's players. the second is stoning freeney ... being possibly the only guy to tame the hall of famer speaks of him, not everyone else. pace and walter jones were monsters - by that implication only 2 teams had franchise tackles in this generation.

HOU-TEX
12-07-2009, 11:31 AM
what more should Cushing have done to make your "franchise player" list (As a rookie he is the #1 OLB in a 4-3)?

He's a rookie. To me, a franchise player is one that has proven he can bring it every season. Other than his injury season, AJ has brought it every season. Even with YKW at QB.

NitroGSXR
12-07-2009, 11:33 AM
what more should Cushing have done to make your "franchise player" list (As a rookie he is the #1 OLB in a 4-3)?

Play a couple more seasons at that level and then we'll talk franchise.

Runner
12-07-2009, 11:37 AM
Franchise players: AJ, Demeco, maybe Mario, and Cushing.

I've got Dre and Demeco.

HOU-TEX
12-07-2009, 11:39 AM
I've got Dre and Demeco.

I'm kinda on the fence with D-Ryans. He had an off year last year. IMO, he's still a liability in coverage.

Still love the guy though. :)

Scooter
12-07-2009, 11:42 AM
i'm missing this franchise arguement. franchise to me means houston, not 15 probowls or dunta's 10mil contract. chester pitts is a franchise player - a player this franchise has locked into position to build around. aj, ryans, mario, cushing, daniels, pollard, schaub, duane brown, and similar IMO are deserving of a franchise label as pieces we need to retain and build this franchise around to be successful - if given the opportunity these guys spend their careers in houston. keeping these franchise players for extended contracts and adding similar players are what will make our whole look in 5 years like what the steelers have now.

Goldensilence
12-07-2009, 11:52 AM
I have a hard time evaluating Rick Smith because it seems like always at the end of the day personnel decisions go through Gary Kubiak.

He's been underwhelming on FAs. Hit and miss in the draft, but again how much input does the coaching staff have on this one?

IMO we sorely needed our top three picks to make an impact this year if we were going to make a playoff push. Cushing is ROY material, but then again LB usually has a good opportunity to be. Barwin has been a major disapointment and a bad pick, considering what other players could have been selected. Caldwell looked the role, but for some reason hasn't been able to make it on the field. Instead we've got Kubiak guys like Studdard and White.

I guess the question I keep asking is how time much does bringing the team back from a 2-14 season and a disaster of a roster give you?

Runner
12-07-2009, 11:59 AM
I've got Dre and Demeco.

I'm kinda on the fence with D-Ryans. He had an off year last year. IMO, he's still a liability in coverage.

Still love the guy though. :)

I think Dre is a clear franchise player.

Ryans is more borderline, but I still give him the edge. I hope I don't get accused of being too liberal with my tossing around of the term "franchise player". :)

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2009, 12:00 PM
i'm missing this franchise arguement. franchise to me means houston, not 15 probowls or dunta's 10mil contract. chester pitts is a franchise player - a player this franchise has locked into position to build around. aj, ryans, mario, cushing, daniels, pollard, schaub, duane brown, and similar IMO are deserving of a franchise label as pieces we need to retain and build this franchise around to be successful - if given the opportunity these guys spend their careers in houston. keeping these franchise players for extended contracts and adding similar players are what will make our whole look in 5 years like what the steelers have now.

Yeah, you are mixing the idea of a quality starter and franchise player. Franchise players generally should be a dominate complete player who regularly changes the game and can do so in almost any situation. . You are listing guys who can and should start for years, but are not true difference makers. The quality starters have more value to a particular system and/or team and a team should hang on to as long as possible, but are not elite nor consistently make an impact. To a large extent, they are high-end "worker bess"

2slik4u
12-07-2009, 12:09 PM
Smith is the young African-American GM and face of management that gives McNair the look of a progressive, PC organization that is probably important to the owner.
Did he make the choices, was his input significant in the Draft picks since he's
been here ? If so that's certainly worth something because Cushing and Duane Brown have been productive top picks even though the wisdom of the Okoye choice is obviously dubious. FA acquisions are another story.
If McNair were to replace Kubiak with a non big-name coach, keeping Smith might be the way to go but if he really wants to get a high-profile guy like Cowher then that calibre coach probably wants a dual role of HC-GM meaning
Smiths would be gone.
I like Smith staying as our GM, however, If a guy like Cowher comes in and requires dual roles as GM/HC, then I say goodbye to Smith. If they can coexist together, I think that would be ideal. One thing I know for sure, its time for a change at the HC position.

Scooter
12-07-2009, 12:22 PM
Yeah, you are mixing the idea of a quality starter and franchise player. Franchise players generally should be a dominate complete player who regularly changes the game and can do so in almost any situation. . You are listing guys who can and should start for years, but are not true difference makers. The quality starters have more value to a particular system and/or team and a team should hang on to as long as possible, but are not elite nor consistently make an impact. To a large extent, they are high-end "worker bess"

i see what you mean and i guess that's where i'll seperate. the popular description of a franchise player to me seems more like a league mvp, where i see a franchise player as a player for the franchise. by terms chester pitts isnt a franchise player, but to me is someone the texans have and will continue to lean the franchise on - same as andre and the players mentioned. in the opposite arguement, joey porter could be considered a steelers franchise player - playing for miami. randy moss, albert haynesworth, and others ... what's a franchise player on another team?

if duane brown plays 12 years as the starting left tackle at a high level for the texans, is a fan favorite (which he's doing for a top 5 passing offense in his 2 years starting left tackle) ... but he never gets a probowl invitation or any national recognition whatsoever, is he a franchise player?

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 12:28 PM
AJ is a no brainer.

Cushing to me has proven that he'll be a franchise LB for sure.


However Demeco seemed to be that way as well, but he hasn't been as great of a player the last two seasons. He is a leader though and brings the full effort. I guess he would still fit in that category, but he needs to get back to playing like he did in his first two seasons.

Mario, I'm not so sure anymore. He's been very disappointing this season. He doesn't seem to have a ton of moves at his position and really hasn't been a game changing DE this year. I'm on the fence with him now and I'm not going to make any excuses for him right now as far as not having a lot of talent around him on the D Line. He should be playing a lot better than he has this season. He was the #1 pick in the draft and is coming off of a 12 and 11 sack season.

Owen Daniels is a franchise TE, no question.

Hervoyel
12-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Back to the original topic.

I don't think you should have to do anything with Rick Smith. He's the general manager and if you fire Gary Kubiak after the season then he participates in the coaching search. He's not on the coaching staff, he can't "only" find one type of player (the "Denver" type) I would hope. He should be able to work with the incoming head coach and if that head coach ends up being somebody like Bill Cowher then Rick Smith may see some of his duties given to the coach but other things he does will no doubt be outside of the realm of responsibilities any head coach could possibly want. General Managers in the NFL don't all do the job the same way and don't all have the same level of responsibility.

He works for Bob McNair and so I presume he'll do what Bob McNair tells him to do or pack his bags. If the owner doesn't feel competent enough to tell his GM, who is under contract what he expects of him then we've got bigger problems than Gary Kubiak. This isn't a problem if Bob will just put the big-man pants on and act like an NFL owner for a change.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2009, 12:46 PM
i see what you mean and i guess that's where i'll seperate. the popular description of a franchise player to me seems more like a league mvp, where i see a franchise player as a player for the franchise. by terms chester pitts isnt a franchise player, but to me is someone the texans have and will continue to lean the franchise on - same as andre and the players mentioned. in the opposite arguement, joey porter could be considered a steelers franchise player - playing for miami. randy moss, albert haynesworth, and others ... what's a franchise player on another team?

if duane brown plays 12 years as the starting left tackle at a high level for the texans, is a fan favorite (which he's doing for a top 5 passing offense in his 2 years starting left tackle) ... but he never gets a probowl invitation or any national recognition whatsoever, is he a franchise player?

He would effectively be Flozell Adams for the Cowboys. How you think of Adams would be how to think of Brown in the situation you painted. As some who lives in cowboyville, I think Adams is a decent to good player at a hard replace position, but is not a "franchise" player, although he has been valuable to the franchise. It is not a knock on a player to say he is not one of the handful great players in the league, just that everyone can't be classified as franchise.

HOU-TEX
12-07-2009, 01:19 PM
Back to the original topic.

I don't think you should have to do anything with Rick Smith. He's the general manager and if you fire Gary Kubiak after the season then he participates in the coaching search. He's not on the coaching staff, he can't "only" find one type of player (the "Denver" type) I would hope. He should be able to work with the incoming head coach and if that head coach ends up being somebody like Bill Cowher then Rick Smith may see some of his duties given to the coach but other things he does will no doubt be outside of the realm of responsibilities any head coach could possibly want. General Managers in the NFL don't all do the job the same way and don't all have the same level of responsibility.

He works for Bob McNair and so I presume he'll do what Bob McNair tells him to do or pack his bags. If the owner doesn't feel competent enough to tell his GM, who is under contract what he expects of him then we've got bigger problems than Gary Kubiak. This isn't a problem if Bob will just put the big-man pants on and act like an NFL owner for a change.

I agree here 100%.

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone know who the GM was, in any, the last couple years Cowher was in Pitt? Will he truly ask for 100% control over personel?

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 01:25 PM
I agree here 100%.

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone know who the GM was, in any, the last couple years Cowher was in Pitt? Will he truly ask for 100% control over personel?

I'm not sure really. My guess is that someone in the Rooney family was making the picks and the decisions, but Cowher probably had a huge influence on all of them and someone just signed off on them. Regardless of who it was, Cowher had a lot of control and influence either way. If Cowher were to come here though, my guess is that he would want that control again whether it would be as the GM/coach or a lot of influence on the GM. I wouldn't have any problem with that if it were Cowher though. I'd trust that guy's vision and philosophy any day. I wouldn't with a lot of coaches though as far as letting them be the coach and the GM. I would with Cowher or Holmgren though.

Goldensilence
12-07-2009, 01:32 PM
I agree here 100%.

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone know who the GM was, in any, the last couple years Cowher was in Pitt? Will he truly ask for 100% control over personel?

Kevin Colbert.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/5/19/879711/how-successful-has-kevin-colbert

How I feel is unless McNair is going to want a strong, seperate GM they might as well retain Smith through the end of his contract.

I'm not sure he exactly deserves it but, IF the Texans do make a change in coaching I would hope he can do better on his end.

Hervoyel
12-07-2009, 01:43 PM
If I were Rick Smith in this situation I would resist the urge to try and steer McNair away from somebody like Cowher (or any experienced "name" coach like that). It would be entirely understandable to feel threatened by a coach who's x percent GM as well but if he could get past that it would be a great opportunity to work with someone he could learn from. If Rick Smith couldn't do that then I think he's probably need to go or might even go of his own accord. I personally think he's a promising young GM who could benefit from exposure to the culture of another team. He'd be a fool to pass up that chance.

Big Lou
12-07-2009, 02:47 PM
FWIW, here's (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2009/12/at_least_the_te.html) what Richard Justice says about the situation.

You actually read something that moron posted? That guy should be run out of town before Kubiak or Rick Smith.

I wish we could get a huge group together and complain to the editor in order to get the guy moved to the obituary column.

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 02:55 PM
You actually read something that moron posted? That guy should be run out of town before Kubiak or Rick Smith.

I wish we could get a huge group together and complain to the editor in order to get the guy moved to the obituary column.

Say what you want about Richard Justice and I know that he's not a popular figure around here, but it turns out that a lot of stuff that he's said over the last two years was true and was correct regarding Kubiak and his staff.

dalemurphy
12-07-2009, 02:58 PM
Say what you want about Richard Justice and I know that he's not a popular figure around here, but it turns out that a lot of stuff that he's said over the last two years was true and was correct regarding Kubiak and his staff.

like what?

Scooter
12-07-2009, 02:59 PM
like what?

by saying everybody sucks, he's bound to get some right.

Mr. White
12-07-2009, 03:00 PM
You actually read something that moron posted? That guy should be run out of town before Kubiak or Rick Smith.

I wish we could get a huge group together and complain to the editor in order to get the guy moved to the obituary column.

I pay more attention to what's being said rather than who's saying it. I could care less what a bunch of people on a message board say about a given journalist.

Texecutioner
12-07-2009, 03:05 PM
like what?

A ton of stuff that he criticized Kubiak and Smith over in the last two years where many people bashed him for and said he had no clue. He was right about a lot of his criticisms with Kubiak whether you like the guy or not. He's also been correct on quite a few things he has said about Mcnair as a hands off owner in the past. I've heard a lot of people bash him for saying a lot of stuff regarding Kubes and Mcnair's long leash and lack of accountability. I'd say that the current condition of this franchise right now indicates that he knew a little bit of what he was talking about.