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Kimmy
12-01-2009, 02:05 PM
So I was finally able to get through today with 'The Red Zone' on Sirius. My question was, what has happened, what do they think it is?

Coach Schottenheimer responded with some really good input, stuff we already know, then the talk turned to coaching.

Both Solomon Wilcots & Marty Schottenheimer seem to think this will be Kubiaks last year and talked about how they think Mike Shanahan would be the best pick (we have so many pieces of that system in place, Kyle, etc)

Said if they were Bob McNair and he was even remotely thinking of a change, to open the checkbook and go for Mike.

Then they called out Dunta for "lack of leadership" on the defensive side. They blasted him big time. Brought up the whole "pay me Rick" thing.

I was surprised how much time they actually spent on the subject and how open the coach replacement talk was.

I was waiting to hear other names brought up about the coaching issue, was shocked a little at Mike's name.

No More 8-8's
12-01-2009, 02:11 PM
This is not the first time i have heard about Shanahan coming to the Texans. Would make the most sense considering we are still Denver South.

Hardcore Texan
12-01-2009, 02:11 PM
Yeah, I am not sure how I would feel about Mike being here to replace Kubiak, it would be strange. That being said, I just want us to win. I am betting McNair gives Kubes another year especially if we finish 9-7 or so. I wouldn't mind Kubiak being gone if it meant getting Cowher in here, I am rapidly getting to the point where I think he needs to go no matter what though.

dalemurphy
12-01-2009, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I am not sure how I would feel about Mike being here to replace Kubiak, it would be strange. That being said, I just want us to win. I am betting McNair gives Kubes another year especially if we finish 9-7 or so. I wouldn't mind Kubiak being gone if it meant getting Cowher in here, I am rapidly getting to the point where I think he needs to go no matter what though.

I'm not sure that Cowher is the answer. Since he's not a coordinator, his success is largely dependent on getting the right OC and DC. And, a lot of his top choices are gainfully employed and doing well in other places.

Also, Cowher will likely want control of personnel and that is something he hasn't proven. And, do we boot Rick Smith out of here. Seems to me that he's done an awfully good job... The more I think about this, the more I think we need to give Kubiak one more season, even if this one continues to tank.

Mr. White
12-01-2009, 02:22 PM
Can't get excited about Shanahan whatsoever.

I think John Elway had a lot more to do with his success than he did.

GuerillaBlack
12-01-2009, 02:23 PM
Cowher hasn't been proven with personnel? Not sure about that one.

dalemurphy
12-01-2009, 02:33 PM
Cowher hasn't been proven with personnel? Not sure about that one.

Then you don't understand how the Steelers run their organization.

Norg
12-01-2009, 02:38 PM
why were u shocked this is Mike Denvers system the keys are in place he wouldnt have to waste his time changing stuff

i still think kubes should stay but if he didnt i would want mike for at least 2 years to see what can happen

Texan_Bill
12-01-2009, 02:42 PM
Can't get excited about Shanahan whatsoever.

I think John Elway had a lot more to do with his success than he did.

Really? Not trying to be facetious, but analyze this:

Elway spent 10 years with Reeves, two with Wade Phillips = 12 seasons and zero championships. 4 years with Shanahan two championships.

BTW, I am not a Mike Shanahan fan by any stretch.

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 02:52 PM
I think Denver's owner knee jerked last year.

Shanahan was a defensive coordinator away from having it all put back together last year. I think his ego killed him in Denver.

Bringing him here would be awkward in my opinion. I don't know that he would take the job knowing that he would replace his trusted understudy.

If McNair is thinking along this route, bring him on board in a Bill Parcells Miami role now.

Tell him, "Look Mike. Gary is struggling. Come in here the last 5 weeks and tutor him a little bit."

Hagar
12-01-2009, 02:53 PM
Can't get excited about Shanahan whatsoever.

I think John Elway had a lot more to do with his success than he did.
Ditto! If the system isn't working for Kubes why would it work for Shanny?

Hervoyel
12-01-2009, 02:53 PM
I'm not sure that Cowher is the answer. Since he's not a coordinator, his success is largely dependent on getting the right OC and DC. And, a lot of his top choices are gainfully employed and doing well in other places.

Also, Cowher will likely want control of personnel and that is something he hasn't proven. And, do we boot Rick Smith out of here. Seems to me that he's done an awfully good job... The more I think about this, the more I think we need to give Kubiak one more season, even if this one continues to tank.

I don't see the problem there. In 15 years in the league you meet a lot of people. In 15 mostly successful years you make a lot of friends and cross a lot of paths. When Bill Parcells lands somewhere he never seems to have any trouble finding somebody to run his offense and defense. For that matter when most good coaches lose coordinators to promotions and opportunities elsewhere they never seem to miss a beat promoting the next guy in line or bringing back somebody who didn't do well as the top guy on another team. Only inexperienced guys and guys who don't have what it takes to be a head coach seem to have trouble finding decent coordinators.

If Cowher is the coach many of us believe him to be then filling these positions isn't going to be the nightmare it's being made out to be.

El Tejano
12-01-2009, 02:56 PM
Ditto! If the system isn't working for Kubes why would it work for Shanny?

Because Shanny would know to put in guys like Jacoby Jones. He would also know how to run the clock better and he would also know how to make a challenge. Give the team a sense of urgency better then Kubes does.

houstonspartan
12-01-2009, 02:58 PM
SO tired of the Shanahan talk. It's more far fetched than the Cowher craze.

I just don't think Shanahan would take a job that his good friend just got fired from. I don't. And, I think Baby Shanny wants to forge his own identity, not work for his dad.

And, in my own personal opinion, I want some big, fat lineman. Not sure if Shanny is up for that.

Texans34Life
12-01-2009, 02:59 PM
Hey Kimmy, I heard you on the radio....it was nice to hear a Texans question instead of a NYG/Cowgirls/Steelers question. By the way, I think it was Alex Marvez on instead of Solomon.

I hope Alex is right about Mike Shanahan. It would be cool to have the Shanahan mafia whip this team into shape instead of the whimpy Kubiak disguised as Dom Capers.

I'm getting tired of the Kubiak "I'll take all the blame" excuses.

TimeKiller
12-01-2009, 03:00 PM
Poppa Shanahan would be change for the sake of change...and really it wouldn't be much changing. Not for me.

Just thinking out loud here....Bruce Matthews as a HC?

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 03:02 PM
Can't get excited about Shanahan whatsoever.

I think John Elway had a lot more to do with his success than he did.

I'm not a Shanahan disciple either but there is some logic in this post I can't follow.

The man has two rings. :trophy: :trophy: How many current head coaches in the NFL can say that?

By contrast Tony Dungy, "the greatest coach in modern history" has how many? How long did it take him to get it? (crap just gave away the answer to the first question)

To say Denver's successes under Shanahan was all Elway and Shanahan had nothing to do with it is just idotic. :brickwall:

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 03:03 PM
Poppa Shanahan would be change for the sake of change...and really it wouldn't be much changing. Not for me.

Just thinking out loud here....Bruce Matthews as a HC?

No more experiments.

houstonspartan
12-01-2009, 03:05 PM
No more experiments.

co-sign

Mr. White
12-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Really? Not trying to be facetious, but analyze this:

Elway spent 10 years with Reeves, two with Wade Phillips = 12 seasons and zero championships. 4 years with Shanahan two championships.

BTW, I am not a Mike Shanahan fan by any stretch.

Shanahan also had a lot more to work with in terms of talent than Reeves or Phillips ever did.

I think it was a mutually beneficial relationship....I just think that Elway did more for Shanahan than the other way around.

Kimmy
12-01-2009, 03:13 PM
Hey Kimmy, I heard you on the radio....it was nice to hear a Texans question instead of a NYG/Cowgirls/Steelers question. By the way, I think it was Alex Marvez on instead of Solomon.

I hope Alex is right about Mike Shanahan. It would be cool to have the Shanahan mafia whip this team into shape instead of the whimpy Kubiak disguised as Dom Capers.

I'm getting tired of the Kubiak "I'll take all the blame" excuses.

CHIT! You are right -- it was Alex :) Thank goodness I have free wireless service, I was on hold for about an hour LOL

ArlingtonTexan
12-01-2009, 03:14 PM
I don't see the problem there. In 15 years in the league you meet a lot of people. In 15 mostly successful years you make a lot of friends and cross a lot of paths. When Bill Parcells lands somewhere he never seems to have any trouble finding somebody to run his offense and defense. For that matter when most good coaches lose coordinators to promotions and opportunities elsewhere they never seem to miss a beat promoting the next guy in line or bringing back somebody who didn't do well as the top guy on another team. Only inexperienced guys and guys who don't have what it takes to be a head coach seem to have trouble finding decent coordinators.

If Cowher is the coach many of us believe him to be then filling these positions isn't going to be the nightmare it's being made out to be.


I think the line of thinking you ae talking about reflects one of the key negatives with Kubiak versus many coaches in the league. Kubiak wants his guys who runs his systems. I mean did he really ever interview multiple candidates for the OC/DC, in particular someone who may have had a philosophical difference in running an offense or defense.

Interviewing is all about evaluation understanding which coaching candidate has the best combination of teaching ability, leadership, talent evaluation and scheme. Kubiak choose to go with people he was comfortable with versus maybe a person with more potential as a coach. If head coach has trust in his ability to evaluate coaches and teach them a system, who knows a team might get back that same system with some fresh approaches that could just as well designed, but more creative and innovative at the same time.

m5kwatts
12-01-2009, 03:15 PM
I'm not sure that Cowher is the answer. Since he's not a coordinator, his success is largely dependent on getting the right OC and DC. And, a lot of his top choices are gainfully employed and doing well in other places.

Also, Cowher will likely want control of personnel and that is something he hasn't proven. And, do we boot Rick Smith out of here. Seems to me that he's done an awfully good job... The more I think about this, the more I think we need to give Kubiak one more season, even if this one continues to tank.

Don't you think Cowher has spent the past few seasons mapping out his staff and who he thinks will be available? I mean its not like he's gonna sit out of coaching forever waiting for the right coordinators to be available. He's got a list of people he wants. After each of the last few offseasons some were scratched off, some were added based on hirings/firings.

And I think this is one of the positives of Cowher. He'll run the team and not get over immersed in scheme and design. He'll be making all the big decisions on game day as far as clock management/timeout management. And he's a master motivator. The problem with our staff is there's too many opinions I think and not enough decisiveness. A new running back every week, giving up huge plays the first few weeks, inconsistent play on the defensive and offensive line. It seems like there's too many voices/opinions in the meetings each week and not enough "Hey this is how its gonna be." Just one fan's opinion though.

Mr. White
12-01-2009, 03:15 PM
I'm not a Shanahan disciple either but there is some logic in this post I can't follow.

The man has two rings. :trophy: :trophy: How many current head coaches in the NFL can say that?

By contrast Tony Dungy, "the greatest coach in modern history" has how many? How long did it take him to get it? (crap just gave away the answer to the first question)

To say Denver's successes under Shanahan was all Elway and Shanahan had nothing to do with it is just idotic. :brickwall:

What's idiotic is to put words in my mouth.


I think John Elway had a lot more to do with his success than he did.

I don't see all Elway in that quote.

You guys can have your Shanahan panty party. I'm not jazzed at all.

rdroppa
12-01-2009, 03:21 PM
Shanahan is too much of a gentleman to take a job vacated by a man he mentored. No way he would ever do that to Kubiak.

houstonspartan
12-01-2009, 03:24 PM
Shanahan is too much of a gentleman to take a job vacated by a man he mentored. No way he would ever do that to Kubiak.

Amen! I've said it like 10 times on different threads, but people just read right over it.

Shanny might be a good "fit" but I just don't see him taking the job.

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 03:26 PM
What's idiotic is to put words in my mouth.



I don't see all Elway in that quote.

You guys can have your Shanahan panty party. I'm not jazzed at all.

Just pointing out the flaws in your logic. You can't say Elway had more to do with it than Shanahan did. Like another poster said. Elway was there for 12 years before he got a ring. He didn't get one until Shanahan took over.

Manning was in Indianapolis before Tony Dungy showed up and did not get a ring until then.

You can't discount the importance of the coach.

rdroppa
12-01-2009, 03:27 PM
Great minds think alike:kingkong:

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 03:32 PM
Shanahan is too much of a gentleman to take a job vacated by a man he mentored. No way he would ever do that to Kubiak.

co-sign

Mr. White
12-01-2009, 03:32 PM
Just pointing out the flaws in your logic. You can't say Elway had more to do with it than Shanahan did. Like another poster said. Elway was there for 12 years before he got a ring. He didn't get one until Shanahan took over.

Manning was in Indianapolis before Tony Dungy showed up and did not get a ring until then.

You can't discount the importance of the coach.

I guess I just see the other side of that coin. Shanahan wasn't so much of a legend when Bubby Brister took over at QB.

El Tejano
12-01-2009, 03:42 PM
Then you don't understand how the Steelers run their organization.

Dom Capers was a DC for Cowher. Dom didn't pan out as a HC. The one thing I would say about Cowher is he would instill passion and would get his players more than prepared for a must win game.

I recall one year when the Houston Oilers, during the Jeff Fisher/Eddie George era, went to Pittsburgh and Darryl Lewis intercepted a pass and ran it back and a fight broke out. At the end of that game, even though Pitt won, Cowher tells his team to be on the look out for the next time they played the Oilers because he believed there was a rivalry brewing. Accepting the win and preparing the team for the future as soon as the win was over.

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 03:45 PM
I guess I just see the other side of that coin. Shanahan wasn't so much of a legend when Bubby Brister took over at QB.

It is quite funny how selective people see things.

Shanahan wins 2 Super Bowls and it was with Reeves team.

Gruden goes to the Super Bowl in Oakland (didn't win), then turns around and wins one in Tampa Bay and it was with Dungy's team. If it was Dungy's team, why did they squeak into the playoffs with a 9-7 record in 2001, and Gruden with the "same team" goes 12-4 the next year. Did Dungy somehow coach 2 teams that year?

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 03:46 PM
BTW...After extracting VY genitals from Gruden's mouth, McNair should give him a call.

nero THE zero
12-01-2009, 03:47 PM
You should have asked Marty, if offered, would he take the Texans' job.

He'd be my second choice behind Cowher.

No More 8-8's
12-01-2009, 03:48 PM
How was Shanahan as a coach?

I cant seem to remember if he was a hard-ass or boring or tough. If you had to describe MS in one word what would it be? And please dont say winner. lol.

No More 8-8's
12-01-2009, 03:49 PM
WHat we need is some sort of leadership and identity. if we cant get it from our players, might as well get it from our coach.

Mr. White
12-01-2009, 03:55 PM
It is quite funny how selective people see things.

Shanahan wins 2 Super Bowls and it was with Reeves team.

Gruden goes to the Super Bowl in Oakland (didn't win), then turns around and wins one in Tampa Bay and it was with Dungy's team. If it was Dungy's team, why did they speak into the playoffs with a 9-7 record in 2001, and Gruden with the "same team" goes 12-4 the next year. Did Dungy somehow coach 2 teams that year?

Another straw man fail.

I never said a damn thing about Dan Reeves. BTW, Shanahan took over a Wade Phillips team. Never said anything about Gruden, Dungy, or anyone else you're trying to throw in.

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 04:01 PM
Another straw man fail.

I never said a damn thing about Dan Reeves. BTW, Shanahan took over a Wade Phillips team. Never said anything about Gruden, Dungy, or anyone else.

For a straw man to fail it has to be attempted.

This was not a straw man attack. Interpretation fail.


1. You tried to give Elway more credit for Denver's success than Shanahan.

2. I pointed out the flaw in that logic.

3. For comparison I used the Gruden/Dungy, Shanahan/(Reeves,Phillips) analogy the illustrate the same flawed logic.

Your ball.

GP
12-01-2009, 04:09 PM
WHat we need is some sort of leadership and identity. if we cant get it from our players, might as well get it from our coach.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in that post.

We have the talent to get to at least ONE playoff game in the opening round.

If we had a coach who could get "playoff football" out of the Texans during those moments in the regular season (such as the MNF game, the Colts game, etc.) the players would respond and get it done.

I have more faith in our players than I do in Gary Kubiak right now.

Mr. White
12-01-2009, 04:11 PM
For a straw man to fail it has to be attempted.

This was not a straw man attack. Interpretation fail.


1. You tried to give Elway more credit for Denver's success than Shanahan.

2. I pointed out the flaw in that logic.

3. For comparison I used the Gruden/Dungy, Shanahan/(Reeves,Phillips) analogy the illustrate the same flawed logic.

Your ball.

What do Gruden and Dungy have to do with Shanahan and Elway?

For your analogy to work, Brad Johnson would have to be close to the same caliber of a QB as Elway.

Is Mike Shanahan a better coach than Dan Reeves or Wade Phillips? Yes.
Do I want him coaching here? Hell no.

Texan_Bill
12-01-2009, 04:23 PM
Shanahan also had a lot more to work with in terms of talent than Reeves or Phillips ever did.

I think it was a mutually beneficial relationship....I just think that Elway did more for Shanahan than the other way around.

Two years removed from the time Shanahan took over until the back to back Super Bowls. 4 years removed from the Reeves days. That can allow for a lot of turnover of players:

Leading Leading
Coach QB RB WR
1998 Shanahan Elway Davis Smith
1997 Shanahan Elway Davis Smith
1996 Shanahan Elway Davis Sharpe
1995 Shanahan Elway Davis Miller
1994 Phillips Elway Russell Miller
1993 Phillips Elway Bernstine Sharpe
1992 Reeves Elway Green Jackson


Obviously you're not wrong, because it's an opinion. However, I think you may be forgetting some of the weapons Elway had even with Reeves. i.e. Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson and Shannon Sharpe.

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 04:29 PM
What do Gruden and Dungy have to do with Shanahan and Elway?

For your analogy to work, Brad Johnson would have to be close to the same caliber of a QB as Elway.

Is Mike Shanahan a better coach than Dan Reeves or Wade Phillips? Yes.
Do I want him coaching here? Hell no.

This will be my last post on this because it is getting rather tiresome to explain things.

Like I said in a previous post, people get selective on what they want to believe.

Giving Elway credit for Shanahan's 2 rings is being selective. Would Shanahan have won those rings without Elway? Who knows. To argue that he wouldn't is like dividing by zero. (Notice: I concede that at no time did you mention anything about dividing by zero.)

We do know Elway did not get a ring in 12 years and under 2 previous coaches until Shanahan came along.

At the same time, saying Gruden rode Dungy's glory in Tampa Bay's Super Bowl win is equally selective. (Again, this is my analogy for illustration. I concede that until the post quoted above you did not mention the names Gruden or Dungy.)

Final Point: I never said I wanted Shanahan for Houston's next head coach. The OP introduced that topic.

PHAROAH
12-01-2009, 05:09 PM
Rick Smith just signed an extension so he will be around and he is from the Denver organization and has a great relationship with Mike Shanahan and I wouldn't have an issue if he took over for Kubiak. I would like to take a shot at Tony Dungy or Mike Holmgren since he is a west coast offense guru as well & we have options here the money & the facilities that would attract a top notch coach.

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 05:38 PM
I know i'm in the minoority, but i like holmgren mor than shanny. I like the fact that he runs more power zone than the typical regular zone. I also like how he won a superbowl with favre and took another team to one without favre and won playoff games. I like that he would have bigger guys inside at the guard and center spot and like to run the ball inside the red zone. I just like holmgren more even if theyre both off the san fran tree.

houstonspartan
12-01-2009, 05:59 PM
Rick Smith just signed an extension so he will be around and he is from the Denver organization and has a great relationship with Mike Shanahan and I wouldn't have an issue if he took over for Kubiak. I would like to take a shot at Tony Dungy or Mike Holmgren since he is a west coast offense guru as well & we have options here the money & the facilities that would attract a top notch coach.

For the 200th time: Shanahan would never take the job that his good friend was just fired from. EVER.

I just don't see it happening.

bckey
12-01-2009, 06:10 PM
I hope the Texans don't go the big Shanny route. Same old thing. I'd rather keep Kubiak instead of hiring Shanny. And I don't want Kubiak anymore. I'd take Cowher, Schottenheimer, Holmgren, Dungy, or Fisher if he left Tennessee. I wouldn't want Gruden or Shanny.

And on the Denver superbowl subject I believe the final piece of the puzzle was Terrell Davis. Without Davis they may not have won a superbowl. Defenses had a hard time trying to stop Elway and Davis.


http://www.20yardline.com/denver-broncos-articles/current/terrell-davis.html


Terrell Davis started off Super Bowl XXXII with a bang in the first quarter, helping Denver pull out to a 17-7 lead. Unfortunately for Denver, he was banged in the head and could not see. Coach Mike Shanahan asked him to go into the game on 3rd down and goal so the Packers would think Denver was going to run the ball. His play action fake allowed John Elway to roll out to the right and run the ball in for the go-ahead score. Davis, however, had to leave the game with a migraine headache.

When Denver got the ball in the second half, Terrell Davis returned to the field. He quickly fumbled the ball, causing many players on the Green Bay Packers sideline to think he was done for the game. Terrell Davis would not let that get him down and on Denver’s next series, he helped Denver dominate with the running game once again. Terrell Davis finished the game with 30 carries for 157 yards and 3 TDs. The Denver Broncos finally won their first Super Bowl, after 4 defeats, and Terrell Davis was voted Super Bowl MVP. “The bigger the game, the more he enjoyed it and the harder he ran,” Denver coach Mike Shanahan said. “When you look back, you have to be in awe.” (4) John Elway added, “In my book, he's the best running back in the league, bar none. He proved that again tonight.” (5)

Thorn
12-01-2009, 06:11 PM
For the 200th time: Shanahan would never take the job that his good friend was just fired from. EVER.

I just don't see it happening.

I don't see Shanahan here either. How would that work with him as head coach and his son as offensive cordinator?

steelbtexan
12-01-2009, 06:35 PM
I don't see Shanahan here either. How would that work with him as head coach and his son as offensive cordinator?

In order

1. Holmgren won a SB Green Bay took another team to the SB Sea. has run a personel dept before
2. Gruden Same resume as Holmgren except refs screwed Oak. (tuck rule)
3. Dan Reeves Same resume as the two mentioned above but doesn't have a SB win even though he has been with 2 different teams. Bad luck running up against some of the best teams of all time. SF,NYG, Wash Hogs (has past relationship with McNair)
4. Cowher Winner, motivator,everybody is held accountable, bothers me that he has never had control of personel, price tag will be prohibitive

Norg
12-01-2009, 06:42 PM
without Elway they made the playoffs 5 times i say thats pretty good

and 2002 and 2006

were a 9-7 record prob one game from a WC spot

Grams
12-01-2009, 06:52 PM
Just a question -

Who was the OC in Denver while Shanahan was the coach and winning all those games and super bowls?

What happened to Denver when that OC left?

Why would anyone want Shanahan?

Mr. White
12-01-2009, 07:25 PM
This will be my last post on this because it is getting rather tiresome to explain things.

Like I said in a previous post, people get selective on what they want to believe.

Giving Elway credit for Shanahan's 2 rings is being selective. Would Shanahan have won those rings without Elway? Who knows. To argue that he wouldn't is like dividing by zero. (Notice: I concede that at no time did you mention anything about dividing by zero.)

We do know Elway did not get a ring in 12 years and under 2 previous coaches until Shanahan came along.

At the same time, saying Gruden rode Dungy's glory in Tampa Bay's Super Bowl win is equally selective. (Again, this is my analogy for illustration. I concede that until the post quoted above you did not mention the names Gruden or Dungy.)

Final Point: I never said I wanted Shanahan for Houston's next head coach. The OP introduced that topic.

Let me put it this way.

I think that Elway is a better QB than Shanahan is a coach. The Hall of Fame voters seem to agree.

Elway would have qualified for the HOF based on his body of work before Shanahan came along.

Does anyone really think Shanahan is headed to the HOF?

utahmark
12-01-2009, 07:35 PM
I think Denver's owner knee jerked last year.

Shanahan was a defensive coordinator away from having it all put back together last year. I think his ego killed him in Denver.

Bringing him here would be awkward in my opinion. I don't know that he would take the job knowing that he would replace his trusted understudy.

If McNair is thinking along this route, bring him on board in a Bill Parcells Miami role now.

Tell him, "Look Mike. Gary is struggling. Come in here the last 5 weeks and tutor him a little bit."

isnt that what already happened in denver for years. 5 more weeks gonna really make a difference.

El Tejano
12-01-2009, 07:50 PM
Just a question -

Who was the OC in Denver while Shanahan was the coach and winning all those games and super bowls?

What happened to Denver when that OC left?

Why would anyone want Shanahan?

Because our current OC is doing a good job and most likely would do a great job still.

Kaiser Toro
12-01-2009, 09:30 PM
Capers, Kubiak and Shanahan? The snooze fest continues.

eriadoc
12-01-2009, 09:36 PM
My first choice would probably be Holmgren, followed by Chucky. How Gruden managed to go 8-8 with the crap he had for his last year in TB is kind of amazing. After that, I'd go for Cowher, I guess. Billick might not be a terrible choice, and I'd want him before Shanahan.

Damn, how many SB appearances did I just type?

Vinny
12-01-2009, 10:42 PM
This will be my last post on this because it is getting rather tiresome to explain things.

Like I said in a previous post, people get selective on what they want to believe.

Giving Elway credit for Shanahan's 2 rings is being selective. Would Shanahan have won those rings without Elway? Who knows. To argue that he wouldn't is like dividing by zero. (Notice: I concede that at no time did you mention anything about dividing by zero.)

We do know Elway did not get a ring in 12 years and under 2 previous coaches until Shanahan came along.

At the same time, saying Gruden rode Dungy's glory in Tampa Bay's Super Bowl win is equally selective. (Again, this is my analogy for illustration. I concede that until the post quoted above you did not mention the names Gruden or Dungy.)

Final Point: I never said I wanted Shanahan for Houston's next head coach. The OP introduced that topic.Shanahan hasn't done jack or squat without Elway. Elway won 12 playoff games and went to 5 Super Bowls! FIVE!

Shanahan has won one playoff game without Elway. one.

Norg
12-01-2009, 10:55 PM
Just a question -

Who was the OC in Denver while Shanahan was the coach and winning all those games and super bowls?

What happened to Denver when that OC left?

Why would anyone want Shanahan?

the last two years of shanny denver season the problem was not The O Cutler was putting up insane numbers

it was the D that failed them

texanhead08
12-01-2009, 11:25 PM
Shannahan also made it to the afc championship game and had home field advantage with Jake Plummer at QB. Its just not true to lay all his success on having Elway.

texanhead08
12-01-2009, 11:34 PM
I have always thought that if you change coaches you need to change personalities as well. If you have a players coach then the next one is probably going to be a firm hand type guy because thats usually what the team needs because they arent as focused as they should be.

Oh and Holmgren did have personel control in Seattle but it was stripped from him and thats when they had their success.

houstonspartan
12-01-2009, 11:48 PM
In order

1. Holmgren won a SB Green Bay took another team to the SB Sea. has run a personel dept before
2. Gruden Same resume as Holmgren except refs screwed Oak. (tuck rule)
3. Dan Reeves Same resume as the two mentioned above but doesn't have a SB win even though he has been with 2 different teams. Bad luck running up against some of the best teams of all time. SF,NYG, Wash Hogs (has past relationship with McNair)
4. Cowher Winner, motivator,everybody is held accountable, bothers me that he has never had control of personel, price tag will be prohibitive

I'm lost. What's your point?

Vinny
12-02-2009, 12:47 AM
Shannahan also made it to the afc championship game and had home field advantage with Jake Plummer at QB. Its just not true to lay all his success on having Elway.
That's the year he won his one non-Elway playoff game.

Pantherstang84
12-02-2009, 05:50 AM
Shanahan hasn't done jack or squat without Elway. Elway won 12 playoff games and went to 5 Super Bowls! FIVE!

Shanahan has won one playoff game without Elway. one.

I understand that. Not saying Shanahan should be here or he is this great magical coach.

The original argument was Denver won their 2 Super Bowls mainly because of Elway. That is flawed logic. Using that train of thought the only thing the Texans need is Elway in his prime or Pouty Peyton.

Shanahan won 2 Super Bowls, with Elway yes, but he won two. You can't take that accomplishment away from him.

Grams
12-02-2009, 12:07 PM
Shanahan hasn't done jack or squat without Elway. Elway won 12 playoff games and went to 5 Super Bowls! FIVE!

Shanahan has won one playoff game without Elway. one.

Shanahan has not done much without Kubiak as his OC either.

Hervoyel
12-02-2009, 01:08 PM
Just a question -

Who was the OC in Denver while Shanahan was the coach and winning all those games and super bowls?

What happened to Denver when that OC left?

Why would anyone want Shanahan?

I think the more relevent versions of those questions would be "Who was the running back in Denver while Shanahan was the coach and winning all those games and super bowls?" and "What happened to Denver when Jake Plummer was replaced with a rooke QB and their running back well ran dry?"

Terrell Davis (who we happen to be missing a reasonable facsimilie thereof here in Houston... but we have Gary Kubiak so go figure) had a lot to do with the Broncos winning those two Super Bowls.

For years Gary wasn't even allowed to call the plays so I have a hard time crediting his imaginative offensive wizardy for their success while he was there. I don't dispute that he learned a great deal, I just don't agree that it necessarily will or has translated to a successful transition to head coach.

I think that the departure of Jake Plummer, the arrival of a rookie Jay Cutler, and finally the odds catching up to their "We can plug any running back into this offense and go" attitude had more to do with what happened to Denver than Gary Kubiak leaving. Had he stayed he would be just as unemployed as the rest of Shanahan's staff. Who knows, maybe he'd be coaching at A&M right now with Mike Sherman.

BigBull17
12-02-2009, 01:16 PM
I think the more relevent versions of those questions would be "Who was the running back in Denver while Shanahan was the coach and winning all those games and super bowls?" and "What happened to Denver when Jake Plummer was replaced with a rooke QB and their running back well ran dry?"

Terrell Davis (who we happen to be missing a reasonable facsimilie thereof here in Houston... but we have Gary Kubiak so go figure) had a lot to do with the Broncos winning those two Super Bowls.

For years Gary wasn't even allowed to call the plays so I have a hard time crediting his imaginative offensive wizardy for their success while he was there. I don't dispute that he learned a great deal, I just don't agree that it necessarily will or has translated to a successful transition to head coach.

I think that the departure of Jake Plummer, the arrival of a rookie Jay Cutler, and finally the odds catching up to their "We can plug any running back into this offense and go" attitude had more to do with what happened to Denver than Gary Kubiak leaving. Had he stayed he would be just as unemployed as the rest of Shanahan's staff. Who knows, maybe he'd be coaching at A&M right now with Mike Sherman.

The Zone Blocking system has also run its course. The 3-4 is a horrible match up for it. Big mauler running games are gonna be the new thing. The NFL runs through cycles. And befor people say everyone runs zone, they run it with real, big linemen. They don't have undersized quick linemen. They have maulers who also zone block.

nero THE zero
12-02-2009, 01:41 PM
And befor people say everyone runs zone, they run it with real, big linemen. They don't have undersized quick linemen. They have maulers who also zone block.

This is one of the biggest perpetuated myths around here.

Our offensive line averages within a pound of NE and Tennessee and is actually heavier than Tennessee's, who's considered one of, if not the best line in the NFL.

BigBull17
12-02-2009, 01:43 PM
This is one of the biggest perpetuated myths around here.

Our offensive line averages within a pound of NE and Tennessee and is actually heavier than Tennessee's, who's considered one of, if not the best line in the NFL.

OK, we PLAY like a light quick oline. That better? We draft guys weak at the point of attack so we can have guys better at the second level. Im tired of that shit.

Texans_Chick
12-02-2009, 04:38 PM
I think the more relevent versions of those questions would be "Who was the running back in Denver while Shanahan was the coach and winning all those games and super bowls?" and "What happened to Denver when Jake Plummer was replaced with a rooke QB and their running back well ran dry?"

Terrell Davis (who we happen to be missing a reasonable facsimilie thereof here in Houston... but we have Gary Kubiak so go figure) had a lot to do with the Broncos winning those two Super Bowls.

For years Gary wasn't even allowed to call the plays so I have a hard time crediting his imaginative offensive wizardy for their success while he was there. I don't dispute that he learned a great deal, I just don't agree that it necessarily will or has translated to a successful transition to head coach.

I think that the departure of Jake Plummer, the arrival of a rookie Jay Cutler, and finally the odds catching up to their "We can plug any running back into this offense and go" attitude had more to do with what happened to Denver than Gary Kubiak leaving. Had he stayed he would be just as unemployed as the rest of Shanahan's staff. Who knows, maybe he'd be coaching at A&M right now with Mike Sherman.

Shanahan says that the Broncos won the Super Bowl as soon as he gave the play calling to Kubiak.

Also, I think that people tend to overlook the SB that the 49ers won with Steve Young when Shanahan was OC, and Kubiak was QB coach. That offense was a juggernaut.

But one way or another, if McNair isn't happy with what Kubiak has done, I can't imagine him going after Shanahan. Also, I can't imagine Shanahan wanting to replace Kubiak--I think he would just try to take the whole staff with him to wherever pays him the most money.

I would not want to see Shanahan/Kubiak/Shanahan in Dallas.

Double Barrel
12-02-2009, 04:57 PM
Just pointing out the flaws in your logic. You can't say Elway had more to do with it than Shanahan did. Like another poster said. Elway was there for 12 years before he got a ring. He didn't get one until Shanahan took over.

Manning was in Indianapolis before Tony Dungy showed up and did not get a ring until then.

You can't discount the importance of the coach.

Shanahan did not instill the talent that John Elway possessed. He deserves credit for head coaching the team, but it is simply asinine to act like that was not the John Elway show for back-to-back seasons. Dude was on a mission from God.

Capers, Kubiak and Shanahan? The snooze fest continues.

No doubt. Wake me when we're winning. :sleep:

Shanahan hasn't done jack or squat without Elway. Elway won 12 playoff games and went to 5 Super Bowls! FIVE!

Shanahan has won one playoff game without Elway. one.

Hey, hey, minor details.

Mr. White
12-02-2009, 05:03 PM
Shanahan did not instill the talent that John Elway possessed. He deserves credit for head coaching the team, but it is simply asinine to act like that was not the John Elway show for back-to-back seasons. Dude was on a mission from God.


You're treading on dangerous territory, DB.

Pantherstang will come back and poke holes in your logic by bringing Dan Reeves, Wade Phillips, Tony Dungy, John Gruden, Otto Graham, Paul Brown, Bronko Nagurski and Jim Thorpe in as examples.