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DerekLee1
11-30-2009, 10:02 PM
Just a thought. But what if our players (save AJ) are NOT as elite, or even as GOOD as we think they are. What if they're average players at best, but the coaching is what's making them overachieve? These late-round picks that Smithiak have landed are playing like stars, and we say, "see how good the players are? With all this talent we should be a playoff team?" What if Kubiak and his staff are just coaching players like OD and Quin and Casey and Jacoby Jones and even Schaub, and making them way better than they would be elsewhere? Good coaches make the best of what they have, and I think Kubiak has made a hell of a lot of lemonade out of lemons. I'm not necessarily spreading the love for Kubiak; I'm just saying before you pull the trigger on firing the guy, maybe you should look at what they've really had to work with.

TheRealJoker
11-30-2009, 10:16 PM
Just a thought. But what if our players (save AJ) are NOT as elite, or even as GOOD as we think they are. What if they're average players at best, but the coaching is what's making them overachieve? These late-round picks that Smithiak have landed are playing like stars, and we say, "see how good the players are? With all this talent we should be a playoff team?" What if Kubiak and his staff are just coaching players like OD and Quin and Casey and Jacoby Jones and even Schaub, and making them way better than they would be elsewhere? Good coaches make the best of what they have, and I think Kubiak has made a hell of a lot of lemonade out of lemons. I'm not necessarily spreading the love for Kubiak; I'm just saying before you pull the trigger on firing the guy, maybe you should look at what they've really had to work with.

He's had 4 years. These are "his guys"...don't think that excuse is gonna fly.

TexCanada
11-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Just a thought. But what if our players (save AJ) are NOT as elite, or even as GOOD as we think they are. What if they're average players at best, but the coaching is what's making them overachieve? These late-round picks that Smithiak have landed are playing like stars, and we say, "see how good the players are? With all this talent we should be a playoff team?" What if Kubiak and his staff are just coaching players like OD and Quin and Casey and Jacoby Jones and even Schaub, and making them way better than they would be elsewhere? Good coaches make the best of what they have, and I think Kubiak has made a hell of a lot of lemonade out of lemons. I'm not necessarily spreading the love for Kubiak; I'm just saying before you pull the trigger on firing the guy, maybe you should look at what they've really had to work with.

Even if that is the case, what would the solution be? An 8-8 record is not our goal as a franchise, and that is all Kubiak has produced. Even if we fire him and end up with a worse record next season, at least we will have started to pinpoint that our problem is with our players as well.

Personally, I havn't really decided how I feel about Kubiak yet, but obviously something is wrong here and changes have to be made. I think I would rather try firing one guy to see if that is the problem instead of getting rid of our players and trying again from scratch.

GNTLEWOLF
11-30-2009, 10:29 PM
Just a thought. But what if our players (save AJ) are NOT as elite, or even as GOOD as we think they are. What if they're average players at best, but the coaching is what's making them overachieve? These late-round picks that Smithiak have landed are playing like stars, and we say, "see how good the players are? With all this talent we should be a playoff team?" What if Kubiak and his staff are just coaching players like OD and Quin and Casey and Jacoby Jones and even Schaub, and making them way better than they would be elsewhere? Good coaches make the best of what they have, and I think Kubiak has made a hell of a lot of lemonade out of lemons. I'm not necessarily spreading the love for Kubiak; I'm just saying before you pull the trigger on firing the guy, maybe you should look at what they've really had to work with.

In my opinion that would then beg the question of why kubiak as head coach and Smith as GM didn't draft players that were good to begin with so they could coach them up into a superstar undefeated team. Why have lemonade when you can have fine wine?

DerekLee1
11-30-2009, 11:06 PM
He's had 4 years. These are "his guys"...don't think that excuse is gonna fly.

But considering the shambles this franchise was in, don't you think it would take a little longer than four years to build a solid franchise? Look at teams that have tried the "quick fix" that have fallen flat on their faces. I think they've done a pretty stellar job of getting quality players and depth. But four years of drafting does not give you elite players at every key position. And we haven't been able to be big players in the free agency market because of salary cap hell. We didn't have a Herschel Walker to trade a draft for. I think you have to give the staff one more year to see what they can get done. They have been THIS CLOSE so many times this season that it's painful. Last year our losses weren't even close, and our victories were against pretty pathetic teams. Frustrating as it is, I don't think we should have an itchy trigger finger right now.

houstonspartan
11-30-2009, 11:30 PM
This clown on 610 tonight was saying the same thing.

Your theory has a million holes.

First, if Gary is such a great coach, why are we flopping in games? Why can't he manage the clock? Why can't he challenge correctly? Using your theory, wouldn't we be undefeated, because Gary is such a great coach?

Second, using your theory, wouldn't Gary also be a great motivator? Clearly, he is not. These guys love their coach, but I think there's a disconnect there.

Third, a coach that can coach great players during the week but can't execute on Sunday's is worthless.

Fourth, a ton of teams were after Matt Schaub. He was defintely an up and comer in Atlanta, and everyone knew it. Yes, I'm sure Gary's coaching has helped, but I wouldn't call him untalented by any means.

Fifth (and this is actually a defense of Kubiak), the truth is, teams are built in the later rounds of the draft. That's why I tend to ignore the first round. Smith and Kubiak appear to have a knack for finding diamonds in the rough in the latter rounds. You're implying that we are picking the leftovers, but that's not necessarily true.

Overall, I see your point, but at the end of the day, we're still a mediocre team.

Carr Bombed
11-30-2009, 11:44 PM
:rolleyes: If Owen Daniels was a "product of the system" why hasn't anybody else been able to step up in his absence? All Owen does is eat LBs for breakfast, run perfect routes, has a 6th sense for soft zones, and can catch literally anything within arm's length. Any decent offensive mind will find a way to get production out of that guy.

Schaub is a west coast QB.....he would be able to perform in any west coast system, that's the reason why Kubiak and Smith were so high on him in the first place. He's the closet thing to the "system player" out of all of these guys...but many coordinators have west coast philosophies.

Kevin Walter has great size, runs fantastic routes, is fearless over the middle, and has hands of glue (as does every receiver on this team) He could play in any system.

Jacoby didn't even get a chance to play in this system....he was just a VERY ATHLETIC guy who they threw on the field and all he did was make big plays.


I'm not even going to talk about the defensive players, because the thought that we've ever had a defensive coaching staff that was able to put a "system" together which actually made overachievers out of scrubs makes me LMAO http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/Laughing/lol-030.gif (http://freesmileyface.net)


The only players on this team that you could really call "system players" are Kubiak's zone blocking "scheme" lineman and they have failed MISERABLY......also all of these "system RBs" that supposedly grew on trees :rolleyes:

Vinny
11-30-2009, 11:46 PM
Just a thought. But what if our players (save AJ) are NOT as elite, or even as GOOD as we think they are. What if they're average players at best, but the coaching is what's making them overachieve? These late-round picks that Smithiak have landed are playing like stars, and we say, "see how good the players are? With all this talent we should be a playoff team?" What if Kubiak and his staff are just coaching players like OD and Quin and Casey and Jacoby Jones and even Schaub, and making them way better than they would be elsewhere? Good coaches make the best of what they have, and I think Kubiak has made a hell of a lot of lemonade out of lemons. I'm not necessarily spreading the love for Kubiak; I'm just saying before you pull the trigger on firing the guy, maybe you should look at what they've really had to work with.
It's not like the Texans are playing in this dark place where nobody can see the talent and the strategy used. Kubiak has made some really strange choices with his talent/game planning and thinking on the fly doesn't seem to be a strong suit when facing quick decisions. The team plays sloppy and he'll publicly state in his pressers that he likes how they played...stuff like that tends to get on NFL observer type guys nerves too.

DerekLee1
11-30-2009, 11:48 PM
The only players on this team that you could really call "system players" are Kubiak's zone blocking "scheme" lineman and they have failed MISERABLY......also all of these "system RBs" that supposedly grew on trees

Yeah, but two of those linemen are out for the season, as well as their star TE, who on running plays is also a blocker. You could easily make the argument that the running game is suffering from injuries WAY more than the system itself. As has been pointed out many times, the ZBS is used in some form or another by EVERY TEAM in the NFL. It's not the system, it's the players. The system works; we just STILL need players.

Carr Bombed
11-30-2009, 11:53 PM
Yeah, but two of those linemen are out for the season, as well as their star TE, who on running plays is also a blocker. You could easily make the argument that the running game is suffering from injuries WAY more than the system itself. As has been pointed out many times, the ZBS is used in some form or another by EVERY TEAM in the NFL. It's not the system, it's the players. The system works; we just STILL need players.

We were struggling to run the ball way before those players went down. In the 3 years that we have now run this scheme (the first season was a mixture of the zone and power) we have only been able to run it well for one year. Hell even the year where all of our lineman were healthy we still sucked ass in short yardage situations. "We were only able to run for show..not for dough" (to use a golf analogy) which is why we sucked ass in the redzone.

And while teams mix in the zone......it is exactly that, A MIXTURE...not a pure zone scheme built around a bunch of lightweights.

TexanBacker93
11-30-2009, 11:56 PM
You're never going to get elite players at every position. You just can't afford them. 4 years is more than enough to turn a team around. If you don't then you'll be back to square one by the 5th year when you have contracts coming due and you can't keep everyone. Too many other teams in the past few years have been as bad as the Texans, but have been able to bounce back and see success. Gary didn't take over an expansion team.

Vinny
11-30-2009, 11:57 PM
Yeah, but two of those linemen are out for the season, as well as their star TE, who on running plays is also a blocker. You could easily make the argument that the running game is suffering from injuries WAY more than the system itself. As has been pointed out many times, the ZBS is used in some form or another by EVERY TEAM in the NFL. It's not the system, it's the players. The system works; we just STILL need players.
The Colts are missing two All Pros...not pro bowlers but All Pro players on their defense and that doesn't include the missing cb's. Every team runs a system of some sort. Some teams get coached up and can plug and play. Some teams fall apart when a few guys go down.

DerekLee1
12-01-2009, 12:26 AM
The Colts are missing two All Pros...not pro bowlers but All Pro players on their defense and that doesn't include the missing cb's. Every team runs a system of some sort. Some teams get coached up and can plug and play. Some teams fall apart when a few guys go down.

...and a team like ours with so many holes and only 4 years to plug them up is falling apart. System or not, it takes time to build a deep franchise. There may not be a minor league in the NFL, but it's similar to baseball - it takes more than a few years to build depth.

Texecutioner
12-01-2009, 01:11 AM
...and a team like ours with so many holes and only 4 years to plug them up is falling apart.

Only 4 years to plug them??? Man, that statement right there gives me a good laugh. How long do you think it takes to find some good players that can play well at their positions? 8 years? Gary has had so much freaking control with this franchise, it's ridiculous. Everything goes back to him. He got his way over and over and has played "not to lose" since he got here. I've never respected his approach to bringing a winning attitude towards this team. In his first season here he didn't even have any plans on trying to make a run. He took the entire season to evaluate while other new HC's took over terrible teams and were out there trying to go for the jugular even with poor teams that they were given. Gary's had his opportunities and hasn't brought back the meat. This is a results oriented business and if you're not bringing in the results, you find someone else who will. If you keep a lame duck around, then your team falls apart and you really need to rebuild which is exactly what happened when Capers was here and you go back to looking like the Lions, Rams, and the Raiders right now.

So many fans just automatically assumed that Kubes would be this great coach, because he spoke well, he's a nice looking guy that seems like a good guy, and because he was a hot name, and people were so happy to get rid of Capers. That was the biggest mistake from the fans and especially from the management.

DerekLee1
12-01-2009, 01:18 AM
Only 4 years to plug them??? Man, that statement right there gives me a good laugh. How long do you think it takes to find some good players that can play well at their positions? 8 years? Gary has had so much freaking control with this franchise, it's ridiculous. Everything goes back to him. He got his way over and over and has played "not to lose" since he got here. I've never respected his approach to bringing a winning attitude towards this team. In his first season here he didn't even have any plans on trying to make a run. He took the entire season to evaluate while other new HC's took over terrible teams and were out there trying to go for the jugular even with poor teams that they were given. Gary's had his opportunities and hasn't brought back the meat. This is a results oriented business and if you're not bringing in the results, you find someone else who will. If you keep a lame duck around, then your team falls apart and you really need to rebuild which is exactly what happened when Capers was here and you go back to looking like the Lions, Rams, and the Raiders right now.

So many fans just automatically assumed that Kubes would be this great coach, because he spoke well, he's a nice looking guy that seems like a good guy, and because he was a hot name, and people were so happy to get rid of Capers. That was the biggest mistake from the fans and especially from the management.

"Lame duck" means knowing that someone else is there to take your spot. There IS no one else better right now for this franchise =THAT IS WILLING TO COME HERE - than Kubiak. Give it up, people. Cowher is NOT coming here. It's leverage for the Carolina gig. Holmgren is a control freak that McNair will not tolerate. Shanahan is a less-than Kubiak. Jimmy Johnson is not leaving his cush job as an analyst, and he's been out of coaching longer than any of the afformentioned candidates. jAnyone else is an equal risk over what we already have. Kubiak is our best hope, and I think we need to stand behind him instead of second-guessing.

houstonspartan
12-01-2009, 01:32 AM
"Lame duck" means knowing that someone else is there to take your spot. There IS no one else better right now for this franchise =THAT IS WILLING TO COME HERE - than Kubiak. Give it up, people. Cowher is NOT coming here. It's leverage for the Carolina gig. Holmgren is a control freak that McNair will not tolerate. Shanahan is a less-than Kubiak. Jimmy Johnson is not leaving his cush job as an analyst, and he's been out of coaching longer than any of the afformentioned candidates. jAnyone else is an equal risk over what we already have. Kubiak is our best hope, and I think we need to stand behind him instead of second-guessing.

No offense, but you're being ridiculus. Everyone in sports - EVERYONE - watches this team and knows how exciting it is and how well-built and competitive it is. Because of that, coaching here has become a plumb job. We can likely get almost anyone we want.

Dude, no offense, but your C-student attitude is not helping the team. You're terrified of doing worse, so you want to settle for middle of the road instead of trying for much better.

You want to sign Kubiak to a 50 year contract and settle for 8-8 all 50 years. That's your business. Some of us want more than that.

As a fans, we HAVE to keep the bar high.

Lucky
12-01-2009, 01:36 AM
...I think Kubiak has made a hell of a lot of lemonade out of lemons.
LOL @ the excuses for Coach Teflon. He's done. And he knows it. That the Kubiak lovers are still defending this guy is downright hilarious.

BTW, all of the lemons are Coach Teflon's lemons. He either drafted or signed the guys, or re-signed the few Casserly holdovers. I think Kubiak's greatest accomplishment in Houston has been collecting talent. He's done a decent job of shopping for the groceries. But, a lousy job of cooking the meal. The Texans haven't overachieved since Kubiak arrived.

DerekLee1
12-01-2009, 01:44 AM
No offense, but you're being ridiculus. Everyone in sports - EVERYONE - watches this team and knows how exciting it is and how well-built and competitive it is. Because of that, coaching here has become a plumb job. We can likely get almost anyone we want.

Dude, no offense, but your C-student attitude is not helping the team. You're terrified of doing worse, so you want to settle for middle of the road instead of trying for much better.

You want to sign Kubiak to a 50 year contract and settle for 8-8 all 50 years. That's your business. Some of us want more than that.

As a fans, we HAVE to keep the bar high.

I have no "C-student" approach. But I also know you're dealing with "C-student" players. Not every team can draft "A-student" players every year. VY failed miserably. AJ, Ryans, and Cushing have passed, though. And Kubiak is smart as &$*k, regardless of the people on this board. If you've ever coached a football team, you''ll know that you get through to some, and there are those you'll NEVER get through to. But Kubiak has gotten through to most, and I'll give that dude at least ONE more season to show he's as smart as his offensive mind seems to show. It took Bill Bellichick 7 years to build a winning franchise and show he's a genius. I'll give Kubes at least 5 to prove the same. The "4 year rule" is a college BS measurement. Considering what he started with, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He at least deserves attention for making us respectable.

Texecutioner
12-01-2009, 01:46 AM
"Lame duck" means knowing that someone else is there to take your spot. There IS no one else better right now for this franchise =THAT IS WILLING TO COME HERE - than Kubiak.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Do you just imagine this stuff out of thin air or what? How in the hell do you know who will or won't come here? How do you know what another HC could do here or couldn't do? You've got nothing to base this line of thinking on. Nothing at all.

What we do know though is that Kubiak can't take this team anywhere. That's something that "has actually been proven for 4 years now."

Give it up, people. Cowher is NOT coming here. It's leverage for the Carolina gig.

Interesting. Cowher told you this?


Holmgren is a control freak that McNair will not tolerate.

More baseless drivel that you came up with that doesn't have any merit as far as Holmgren's reputation. And what in the hell are you talking about as far as what Mcnair will tolerate? The man has kept his cards to his chest since this team has been alive and kicking. The only thing Mcnair has proven thus far is that he will in fact let his coach and GM do practically what they want and he'll stay out of their way. You don't sound like someone that has followed this team that long honestly to make a statement like that regarding Mcnair.


Shanahan is a less-than Kubiak.

Is this a joke?


Jimmy Johnson is not leaving his cush job as an analyst, and he's been out of coaching longer than any of the afformentioned candidates. jAnyone else is an equal risk over what we already have. Kubiak is our best hope, and I think we need to stand behind him instead of second-guessing.

Well maybe that's how you live your life and never second guess any person or any form of authority and just stay behind whomever, but that's not how the real world works. You are paid to be successful at your job. When you aren't successful at your job, then second guessing becomes part of your job. Going on a 3 game losing streak and getting beaten down on in your division is unacceptable for a HC that is in his 4th year.

All you've done is thrown out a bunch of statements about how no one can do any better than Kubes, but you haven't brought one real point or reason to the table as to why this is true. Kubes is the best guy to coach this team because you say so basically.

Goldensilence
12-01-2009, 01:51 AM
I have no "C-student" approach. But I also know you're dealing with "C-student" players. Not every team can draft "A-student" players every year. VY failed miserably. AJ, Ryans, and Cushing have passed, though. And Kubiak is smart as &$*k, regardless of the people on this board. If you've ever coached a football team, you''ll know that you get through to some, and there are those you'll NEVER get through to. But Kubiak has gotten through to most, and I'll give that dude at least ONE more season to show he's as smart as his offensive mind seems to show. It took Bill Bellichick 7 years to build a winning franchise and show he's a genius. I'll give Kubes at least 5 to prove the same. The "4 year rule" is a college BS measurement. Considering what he started with, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He at least deserves attention for making us respectable.

7 years? Bill took over in 2000 and in 2001 won the Super Bowl.

You should really do a little research before throwing things out there and stop making skewed arguments.

I think 4 years is plenty of time to turn a team into a winner considering how much input he's got on team operations.

DerekLee1
12-01-2009, 01:52 AM
All you've done is thrown out a bunch of statements about how no one can do any better than Kubes, but you haven't brought one real point or reason to the table as to why this is true. Kubes is the best guy to coach this team because you say so basically.

And anyone you present is because YOU say so.

Texecutioner
12-01-2009, 02:08 AM
And anyone you present is because YOU say so.

This is not a Disney Movie that we're all living in. This is the real World where you are judged by what you achieve and how you achieve it depending on the circumstances that you're given.

I don't recall presenting any coach's name in this thread. I just disputed the ridiculous assertions that you made earlier that had not one ounce of evidence as far as being valid. You swear up and down that Kubes is the best coach for this team as if he's won multiple SB's here or something. It's completely delusional to even make a statement like that when you don't have any idea what other coaches could do here with this talent that we currently have. The one thing that you "do know" is that Kubes has failed 4 straight years now, so that is the only fact that is a current fact. And with that being so, you just have this imaginary idea that Kubes is going to turn this thing around next season just because.

As Houston Spartan already pointed out, your line of thinking here is a total "C student" approach where you are happy with just getting by and being barely alive. Well the rest of us have higher ambitions than having 8 straight losing seasons and missing the playoffs. Football is a sport and the NFL is a business, not a charity.

mussop
12-01-2009, 02:31 AM
There is no way its the talent. If it was we wouldnt look so good every game...............for one half! In fact that is the real problem, Kubiack has had four years to give this team an identity. We still dont know who this team is. One half they play out of this world (like the first half vs Indy) then the next half they look like Lions. Not the mean ones in the jungle either. The ones in Detroit. It shouldnt take any coach more than 4 years to get his team to play consistant.



Besides you know its time for the coach to go when we the fans are more interested in who could fix the team than being excited about the rest of the season.

Pantherstang84
12-01-2009, 06:20 AM
I thought of opening a new thread to bring this up, but I decided to hijack this one instead. The last 3 weeks there have been a lot of discussions about Gary Kubiak and the team in general. A few posters have stated that they hate everything about Gary and his system. They claim the West Coast/ZBS scheme is crap and is no longer relevant. To those posters I award a :clown:.

If everyone is totally honest they would admit this offensive scheme works. We saw it work for 16 games last year and 5 1/2 games this year and against very good football teams. However, for this offense to be successful you have to have a respectable running game. The whole scheme is predicated on it. The problems with the running game this year can be attributed to 2 factors:

1. Steve Slaton's Sophomore Slump: His vision to find the open running lane has diminished this year and of course coughing up the rock. However, there is a contributing factor to this...

2. Offensive Line Quality Depth: I'll just say it. I miss Chester Pitts in the worst way this year. Our guard play has been poo this year. There is no way to polish this turd and make it shine. This is also part of Slaton's problem this year. With Studdard and White at guard, the inside running lanes have been slow to develop and quick to close. By the time Slaton recognizes the seam and heads that way, it's gone when he gets there.

With that being said, here is some red meat for the unabashed Kubiak haters. I see 3 big issues with Gary as a head coach.

1. Game Management: Absolutely dismal. Enough said.

2. Key plays: His penchant for turning his back on key situations and not watching does not evoke confidence. Whether intentional or not, players pick that up and it affects their play.

3. Coaching scared: He is coaching scared and gets intimidated by other teams. The players need their coach to pick them back up when things start to go bad. They need to hear, "Guys. Run the next play and forget that one. We got them right where we want them." Again confidence. He doesn't have it. Therefore, his players don't either.

Are these things fixable? Maybe with time, but it looks like the clock is running out. Unless this team rallies with a miracle 5 game winning streak and finishes 10-6, I think the clock has run out.

In short, quit hating on the guy and his offensive scheme just for the sake of hating. It evokes ignorance and immaturity. Notice my pink soap is up. I think he needs more time to develop as a head coach, but he has run out of time in Houston. Too bad. I really want him to succeed here.

BTW...I happen to love this offense and its design. I don't know why but I do.

Kaiser Toro
12-01-2009, 08:53 AM
To me there are two glaring things wrong with this team and they both emanate from the staff:

Penalties
2008 - Our opponents were awarded 1st downs 19 times by Texans penalties
2009 - 26 to date with five games left

Slaton
2008 - averages 16.75 carries
2009 - averages 11.9 carries
*the Texans remain 6-0 when Slaton carries the ball 20 times.

Aw shucks and obstinance are what will do Kubiak in.