PDA

View Full Version : 3-4 vs 4-3 question


awtysst
11-30-2009, 10:03 PM
I have noticed that many posters have stated one of the main reasons they would not want Bill Cowher is because he runs a 3-4 defense. This post is not advocating that Bill Cowher be hired. In fact I want the best possible person to be our head coach next year: whether they use a 3-4 or 4-3 base Defense. I think it is a mistake to not hire a potentially great coach just because we do not think we have the personal for a particular system.

I believe we have most of the personal that can fit into either system. Here me out.

At the moment, I think we will finish around .500. That will place us midround in each draft round. It is my belief that we could turn into a tweener D next year(kinda like what Denver is doing) and be a full time 3-4 the following year, IF we chose to go that route.

So, what I will do is use the current roster and make draft picks to supplement.

3-4
So the basic 3-4 looks like this
DL-NT-DL
LB LB LB LB
CB SS FS CB

1) DL
If the Texans went to a 3-4, what might it looks it? This system failed in the Capers era because we did not have the prototypical NT. Compare the Capers era 3-4 without a studly NT with the Jets (Kris Jenkins), Steelers (Casey Hampton), and Ravens (Ngata). Now clearly, the Texans do not have such a player, but for the purpose of this exercise, I will draft a player: NT Dan Williams from Tennessee. He is the prototypical NT that can occupy blockers and penetrate. He is the kind of NT we would need to pull off the 3-4. The nice thing about him is you can play a traditional (think Steelers) and non traditional (think Ravens) 3-4. The traditional 3-4 utilizes a monster NT and 2 lighter DEs(under 300lbs). The Ravens go with all kinds of looks. Sometimes Ngata lines up in a "DE" position sometimes he is in the traditional NT slot. Sometimes the Ravens line up 1NT, 1DT, 1 DE. So, for them its all over the place.

Let's put Super Mario at one spot(he could be our Shaun Ellis or Richard Seymour?) and use a rotation at the other DE spot(Smith/okoye, Bulman etc). Putting Mario here allows him to exploit mismatches and get to the QB much easier. He can play solidly against the run and will be a nightmare to face in passing downs.


2) LB
So, in a 3-4 you need 4 linebackers. Htown has several good options, but lets get to the obvious one first. Demeco will take one of the two inside LB positions. Now, to fill it out. I would put Diles next to Meco as the second ILB. He would fill in great here. On the ends are our OLBs, the guys who need to be super studs on this D. So, whom do I choose? I would put none other than Brian Cushing and Connor Barwin at these spots. Barwin is a more natural fit at 3-4OLB and could become our version of a Mike Vrabel type of player.

Now, think about a 3-4 lineup where you know that Maro is coming from one side, Big Dan is gonna push up the middle, a fresh Dlineman crashing the party and then 4 linebackers that can blitz and cover? Where is the 4th rusher? Is it Cush or Barwin from the outside? Will Meco come up the middle? Intriguing possibilities.

We could do this by simply choosing one NT. We could then use the other choices to get a starting OG and FS.

If we want to make more changes we could draft Micah Johnson, ILB from Kentucky to play next to Meco in the 4th round. We could also grab a

So, if we took best FS in round 1(like Earl Thomas from Texas), NT Dan Williams in the second, best OG in the third (like Mike Johnson), and Alabama Micah Johnson ILB in the 4th we would have all the pieces to transition into a 3-4/4-3 hybrid system.

SO, basically my point is, do not eliminate a potential coach just because he runs a 3-4, we could go that way without too much difficulty if we really wanted.

MannyFresh
11-30-2009, 10:06 PM
Can you imagine the players who would want to come play for Cowher....Casey Hampton for instance...

Hagar
11-30-2009, 10:42 PM
Can you imagine the players who would want to come play for Cowher....Casey Hampton for instance...I'd love to see his fat a$$ on our DL. He'd plug up everything.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a matter of just one or two players. Besides Cush & Ryans playing ILB, I don't think any of our other front seven players would fit into a 3/4 defense. Maybe Baldwin as an OLB, but I don't know enough about Baldwin to say that with any certainty.

Neither Mario nor Antonio Smith fit as a DT or as an OLB.
Okoye as a DT - maybe but I think he's better suited for a 4/3 DT.
DelJuan may fit as a NT at 320 but NT is a very specialized position. There is a lot of difference between facing two OL in the 4/3 vs. possible 3 OL in the 3/4.

Of course who's to say Cowher can't switch to the 4/3. Bring in a specialist as the Defensive Coordinator, and bingo we've made the change.

LonerATO
11-30-2009, 11:10 PM
I have noticed that many posters have stated one of the main reasons they would not want Bill Cowher is because he runs a 3-4 defense. This post is not advocating that Bill Cowher be hired. In fact I want the best possible person to be our head coach next year: whether they use a 3-4 or 4-3 base Defense. I think it is a mistake to not hire a potentially great coach just because we do not think we have the personal for a particular system.

I believe we have most of the personal that can fit into either system. Here me out.

At the moment, I think we will finish around .500. That will place us midround in each draft round. It is my belief that we could turn into a tweener D next year(kinda like what Denver is doing) and be a full time 3-4 the following year, IF we chose to go that route.

So, what I will do is use the current roster and make draft picks to supplement.

3-4
So the basic 3-4 looks like this
DL-NT-DL
LB LB LB LB
CB SS FS CB

1) DL
If the Texans went to a 3-4, what might it looks it? This system failed in the Capers era because we did not have the prototypical NT. Compare the Capers era 3-4 without a studly NT with the Jets (Kris Jenkins), Steelers (Casey Hampton), and Ravens (Ngata). Now clearly, the Texans do not have such a player, but for the purpose of this exercise, I will draft a player: NT Dan Williams from Tennessee. He is the prototypical NT that can occupy blockers and penetrate. He is the kind of NT we would need to pull off the 3-4. The nice thing about him is you can play a traditional (think Steelers) and non traditional (think Ravens) 3-4. The traditional 3-4 utilizes a monster NT and 2 lighter DEs(under 300lbs). The Ravens go with all kinds of looks. Sometimes Ngata lines up in a "DE" position sometimes he is in the traditional NT slot. Sometimes the Ravens line up 1NT, 1DT, 1 DE. So, for them its all over the place.

Let's put Super Mario at one spot(he could be our Shaun Ellis or Richard Seymour?) and use a rotation at the other DE spot(Smith/okoye, Bulman etc). Putting Mario here allows him to exploit mismatches and get to the QB much easier. He can play solidly against the run and will be a nightmare to face in passing downs.


2) LB
So, in a 3-4 you need 4 linebackers. Htown has several good options, but lets get to the obvious one first. Demeco will take one of the two inside LB positions. Now, to fill it out. I would put Diles next to Meco as the second ILB. He would fill in great here. On the ends are our OLBs, the guys who need to be super studs on this D. So, whom do I choose? I would put none other than Brian Cushing and Connor Barwin at these spots. Barwin is a more natural fit at 3-4OLB and could become our version of a Mike Vrabel type of player.

Now, think about a 3-4 lineup where you know that Maro is coming from one side, Big Dan is gonna push up the middle, a fresh Dlineman crashing the party and then 4 linebackers that can blitz and cover? Where is the 4th rusher? Is it Cush or Barwin from the outside? Will Meco come up the middle? Intriguing possibilities.

We could do this by simply choosing one NT. We could then use the other choices to get a starting OG and FS.

If we want to make more changes we could draft Micah Johnson, ILB from Kentucky to play next to Meco in the 4th round. We could also grab a

So, if we took best FS in round 1(like Earl Thomas from Texas), NT Dan Williams in the second, best OG in the third (like Mike Johnson), and Alabama Micah Johnson ILB in the 4th we would have all the pieces to transition into a 3-4/4-3 hybrid system.

SO, basically my point is, do not eliminate a potential coach just because he runs a 3-4, we could go that way without too much difficulty if we really wanted.

Dan Williams will be gone in the first since Miami and Denver both need NT's or even the Steelers going after him since Hampton's contract will be up.

Norg
11-30-2009, 11:57 PM
what is the advantages and dissavantge of a 3-4 verus a 4-3

awtysst
11-30-2009, 11:57 PM
Dan Williams will be gone in the first since Miami and Denver both need NT's or even the Steelers going after him since Hampton's contract will be up.

So, maybe if a 3-4 coach were to come here, we go hard after Hampton. He still has a few dominant seasons left. We could then find a 3-4 NT late in this draft or one in the next one to groom to be his replacement.

LonerATO
11-30-2009, 11:59 PM
So, maybe if a 3-4 coach were to come here, we go hard after Hampton. He still has a few dominant seasons left. We could then find a 3-4 NT late in this draft or one in the next one to groom to be his replacement.

I wonder if the Steelers will let him go since they have had a history of only giving a guy two contracts, but that changed with Harrison this year.

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 12:00 AM
I only see a couple of players on this current squad who could make the transition to the 3-4 in the front 7.

Mario could be the 5 technique and cushing could play outside backer and barwin as another outside backer.When constructing the 3-4, the most important players are the nt and 2 olbs. Of course when talking about defense constructing all are vital, but the nt is #1 and the 2 olb's are next.

The war daddy(wilfolk,hampton,jenkins,and even rogers) those guys force the double team every play. When the guy playing that spot isnt getting doubled, it allows the guard to get on the lb's and and now the defense is compromised. The 5 techniques are vital also, but as long as those guys are stout bu occupying 2 blockers its cool.

The 2 olbs. Traditionally, you would like to get at least 20 sacks betweeen then 2. I've seen coaches that have trouble getting these guys lose start to blitz the inside backers. All 4 lb's were probably de's in college. The prssure and the ability to find those guys can make or break the defense. The texans tried before with babin as one of those guys and it didn't work. It doesn't mean they shouldn't try again, but mario was draft #1 to rush the passer, not 2 gap.

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:01 AM
I'd love to see his fat a$$ on our DL. He'd plug up everything.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a matter of just one or two players. Besides Cush & Ryans playing ILB, I don't think any of our other front seven players would fit into a 3/4 defense. Maybe Baldwin as an OLB, but I don't know enough about Baldwin to say that with any certainty.

Neither Mario nor Antonio Smith fit as a DT or as an OLB.
Okoye as a DT - maybe but I think he's better suited for a 4/3 DT.
DelJuan may fit as a NT at 320 but NT is a very specialized position. There is a lot of difference between facing two OL in the 4/3 vs. possible 3 OL in the 3/4.

Of course who's to say Cowher can't switch to the 4/3. Bring in a specialist as the Defensive Coordinator, and bingo we've made the change.


If we signed Hampton, we'd be much closer than you think. I had Cush and Barwin(not Baldwin:)) as the OLBs and Meco as one of the middles. We could put Diles next to him. Diles is a sure handed enough tackler to do fine here.

Up front we would have Hampton in the middle, mario on one side and then rotational DE next to him (Smith, Okoye, Bulman, etc). The DBs would be the same as in a 4-3. So basically it would be the matter of getting one stud NT and Hampton is that guy. We could go after another MLB or sign a true 3-4DE, but I think we would actually be ok.

Plus you could have Cush line up as the Elephant in an elephant package.

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:05 AM
I only see a couple of players on this current squad who could make the transition to the 3-4 in the front 7.

Mario could be the 5 technique and cushing could play outside backer and barwin as another outside backer.When constructing the 3-4, the most important players are the nt and 2 olbs. Of course when talking about defense constructing all are vital, but the nt is #1 and the 2 olb's are next.

The war daddy(wilfolk,hampton,jenkins,and even rogers) those guys force the double team every play. When the guy playing that spot isnt getting doubled, it allows the guard to get on the lb's and and now the defense is compromised. The 5 techniques are vital also, but as long as those guys are stout bu occupying 2 blockers its cool.

The 2 olbs. Traditionally, you would like to get at least 20 sacks betweeen then 2. I've seen coaches that have trouble getting these guys lose start to blitz the inside backers. All 4 lb's were probably de's in college. The prssure and the ability to find those guys can make or break the defense. The texans tried before with babin as one of those guys and it didn't work. It doesn't mean they shouldn't try again, but mario was draft #1 to rush the passer, not 2 gap.

Yeah, I know Mario was drafted to be a rusher. I am just thinking out loud. Maybe you do what the Ravens do. You have a big Hampton NT, a second Big DT(like a Cody/Robinson) and then stick Barwin as the smaller DE. Then the back 7 would be Cush-Diles-Meco-Mario?

Or just for fun:

Cody-Hampton-Robinson
Cush-Barwin-Meco-Mario

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 12:06 AM
If we signed Hampton, we'd be much closer than you think. I had Cush and Barwin(not Baldwin:)) as the OLBs and Meco as one of the middles. We could put Diles next to him. Diles is a sure handed enough tackler to do fine here.

Up front we would have Hampton in the middle, mario on one side and then rotational DE next to him (Smith, Okoye, Bulman, etc). The DBs would be the same as in a 4-3. So basically it would be the matter of getting one stud NT and Hampton is that guy. We could go after another MLB or sign a true 3-4DE, but I think we would actually be ok.

Plus you could have Cush line up as the Elephant in an elephant package.

Ryans nor diles can play in the middle of a 3-4. neither are stout enough at the point of attack.

Jackie Chiles
12-01-2009, 12:07 AM
I think Cushing would be a much much better fit inside in a 3-4 but he probably does have the versatility to play either spot. IMO Barwin is the only true OLB we would have but he is pretty close to prototype measurables for the spot. Sign Hampton for the nose, sign a journeyman FA OLB to hold down that spot and get your future OLB in the 1st or second round. Maybe draft a CB with the other top pick. I really don't think Mario loses much going to the 5 tech and if we did get 2 serviceable OLBs we would have more pass rushers on the field than we do now. Would also be fun to see Cush and Meco blitz more. If we get a DC that knows what hes doing I think it could be a fun switch, if we stick with the 4-3 I think we improve next year as well anyway.

m5kwatts
12-01-2009, 12:07 AM
If we ran a 3-4, Barwin and Cushing would make for perfect OLBs in the scheme. Mario as the RDE and Antonio Smith as the LDE would be pretty great too. We'd need to find the NT somewhere. And probably another rush OLB to spell Barwin, I can't see him as a 3 down guy just yet.

Jackie Chiles
12-01-2009, 12:11 AM
Ryans nor diles can play in the middle of a 3-4. neither are stout enough at the point of attack.

I don't agree with that assessment of Ryans at all. Diles, probably true.

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 12:12 AM
If we ran a 3-4, Barwin and Cushing would make for perfect OLBs in the scheme. Mario as the RDE and Antonio Smith as the LDE would be pretty great too. We'd need to find the NT somewhere. And probably another rush OLB to spell Barwin, I can't see him as a 3 down guy just yet.

I actually thought they would be more hybrid this yr with barwin and cushing. the hardest guy to find is that 0 technique, but with wilfolk becoming a free agent, that could be the answer right there. Personally, i'd rather just put wilfolk next to okoye and in between mario and okoye and see what happens.

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:13 AM
Ryans nor diles can play in the middle of a 3-4. neither are stout enough at the point of attack.

Top 3-4 MLBS:

Patrick Willis: 6'1 240lbs
Bart Scott: 6'2 240lbs
Jerrod Mayo: 6'1 245lbs
Ray Ray: 6'1 250lbs


Meco is 6'1 250 and Diles is 6'2 237.

Both of them match up just fine size wise as these top 3-4 MLBS.

m5kwatts
12-01-2009, 12:15 AM
I actually thought they would be more hybrid this yr with barwin and cushing. the hardest guy to find is that 0 technique, but with wilfolk becoming a free agent, that could be the answer right there. Personally, i'd rather just put wilfolk next to okoye and in between mario and okoye and see what happens.

I couldn't imagine us completely abandoning the 4-3 because ultimately the RDE spot in a 4-3 is Mario's most ideal position to rush the passer. Mario will rush from that spot in nickel situations I'd imagine. We can only dream of the Wilfork scenario though huh? lol

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 12:15 AM
I don't agree with that assessment of Ryans at all. Diles, probably true.

if demeco played the 3-4 middle, he would be the strongside. Thats means he would have to hit and standup blockers and spill them to the inside weak guy. Compare demeco to guys like david harris or farrior in pittsburgh and you will understand what i'm saying. there have been smaller guys playing inside strong in the 3-4, but not many. Ryans is a run and hit guy.

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:16 AM
If we ran a 3-4, Barwin and Cushing would make for perfect OLBs in the scheme. Mario as the RDE and Antonio Smith as the LDE would be pretty great too. We'd need to find the NT somewhere. And probably another rush OLB to spell Barwin, I can't see him as a 3 down guy just yet.

Yeah that was my original idea. Sign Hampton to be the big NT then draft or look for his eventual replacement next year.


Mario--Hampton--Smith
Cushing-Meco-Diles-Barwin

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 12:17 AM
Top 3-4 MLBS:

Patrick Willis: 6'1 240lbs
Bart Scott: 6'2 240lbs
Jerrod Mayo: 6'1 245lbs
Ray Ray: 6'1 250lbs


Meco is 6'1 250 and Diles is 6'2 237.

Both of them match up just fine size wise as these top 3-4 MLBS.

All the guys are wilb. They're the spill guys. So if ryans is the will, which i have no problem with, who is the hole plugger?

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:18 AM
if demeco played the 3-4 middle, he would be the strongside. Thats means he would have to hit and standup blockers and spill them to the inside weak guy. Compare demeco to guys like david harris or farrior in pittsburgh and you will understand what i'm saying. there have been smaller guys playing inside strong in the 3-4, but not many. Ryans is a run and hit guy.

Farrrior is 6'2 243.
Harris is 6'2 245
Demeco is 6'1 250.

Jackie Chiles
12-01-2009, 12:20 AM
All the guys are wilb. They're the spill guys. So if ryans is the will, which i have no problem with, who is the hole plugger?

I still say Ryans could play either inside spot but since I have him and Cushing playing inside.....

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 12:24 AM
Farrrior is 6'2 243.
Harris is 6'2 245
Demeco is 6'1 250.

Its not just the size aspect, its the ability to do what you're supposed to do or do well. Demeco is a standard 4-3 run and hit lb. He's not a guy that shed attacks, sheds and make the tackle. Its similar to people saying since roy williams is as big as alot of lb's, he should play lb. Well, the combat zone is different and there are alot of thing that go on in there. Vilma was a very good mlb, once they went to the 3-4, coupled with his injury, it was different. I do like the though of cushing playing inside, but now you've made your olb's weak.

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:28 AM
Its not just the size aspect, its the ability to do what you're supposed to do or do well. Demeco is a standard 4-3 run and hit lb. He's not a guy that shed attacks, sheds and make the tackle. Its similar to people saying since roy williams is as big as alot of lb's, he should play lb. Well, the combat zone is different and there are alot of thing that go on in there. Vilma was a very good mlb, once they went to the 3-4, coupled with his injury, it was different. I do like the though of cushing playing inside, but now you've made your olb's weak.

I don't know. I think that Meco is a very good MLB and very good MLB can play 3-4 or 4-3. Meco is comprable to a Patrick Willis in my mind. Maybe not as good, but in the same discussion.

Can you imagine if we went to a 3-4 in 2007? Imagine drafting Willis and teaming him with Meco in the middle! And then imagine if we got Cush last draft and still had Mario!

WOW

Jackie Chiles
12-01-2009, 12:30 AM
I do like the though of cushing playing inside, but now you've made your olb's weak.

Draft Kindle in the first or Hughes in the 2nd while a journeyman FA mans the OLB spot opposite Barwin. Not perfect but at least they can learn the ropes from someone who knows the system. Although if we can't get a Hampton/Wilfork/NT its probably all for naught anyway.

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:33 AM
Draft Kindle in the first or Hughes in the 2nd while a journeyman FA mans the OLB spot opposite Barwin. Not perfect but at least they can learn the ropes from someone who knows the system. Although if we can't get a Hampton/Wilfork/NT its probably all for naught anyway.

Thats the main idea behind this whole thread. You NEED a stud NT to run it. If you don't have that dominant NT your lbs get killed, see Dom Capers era.

And I am not sold on Kindle. Von Miller is an interesting choice. He is undersized but has a relentless motor. Reminds me of Elvis Dumervile.

Big Lou
12-01-2009, 12:35 AM
Ryans nor diles can play in the middle of a 3-4. neither are stout enough at the point of attack.

Remember last year when Ryans was wore down and tore up from taking all those hits because the D-Line was so weak against the run. That is the first thing I thought of when I saw the 3-4 talk.

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 12:43 AM
Draft Kindle in the first or Hughes in the 2nd while a journeyman FA mans the OLB spot opposite Barwin. Not perfect but at least they can learn the ropes from someone who knows the system. Although if we can't get a Hampton/Wilfork/NT its probably all for naught anyway.

Those 3-4 nt arent popular picks and they come from anywhere, but you must have one. Franklin in sf is playing at a very high level right now. Wilfolk has been a stud for awhile as is hampton, jenkins,and even rogers. You would think a guy like okam could do it, but even if you're a big guy, you have to get your pads down. The best thing and the safest would be to pay wilfolk and draft a fire plug and play ryans as a weak inside backer. Now that the defense is playing pretty good, i don't know if changing the course would be the right thing to do.

LonerATO
12-01-2009, 12:46 AM
Those 3-4 nt arent popular picks and they come from anywhere, but you must have one. Franklin in sf is playing at a very high level right now. Wilfolk has been a stud for awhile as is hampton, jenkins,and even rogers. You would think a guy like okam could do it, but even if you're a big guy, you have to get your pads down. The best thing and the safest would be to pay wilfolk and draft a fire plug and play ryans as a weak inside backer. Now that the defense is playing pretty good, i don't know if changing the course would be the right thing to do.

Still need a Safety and with a ton of teams going 3-4 its going to be very hard to find good 3-4 players. Even if this teams changes to a 3-4 coach I think they might stay 4-3 till they can get the personal and depth. Hell look at the Steelers and how they are still running a 3-4 even though MT is a Tampa 2 guy.

awtysst
12-01-2009, 12:50 AM
Still need a Safety and with a ton of teams going 3-4 its going to be very hard to find good 3-4 players. Even if this teams changes to a 3-4 coach I think they might stay 4-3 till they can get the personal and depth. Hell look at the Steelers and how they are still running a 3-4 even though MT is a Tampa 2 guy.

They could go to a 3-4/4-3 hybrid type of D until they can find the right personal.

Again this was an intellectual exercise and not a lets go 3-4 thread.

Thank you to everyone for willing to discuss!

m5kwatts
12-01-2009, 01:15 AM
Demeco is good enough to play in any scheme

Don't count out Bentley, he could play next to Demeco in a 3-4 too, not just Diles

DerekLee1
12-01-2009, 02:06 AM
what is the advantages and dissavantge of a 3-4 verus a 4-3

It's subjective. A 4-3 is more traditional and has linemen (and maybe more) attacking from 4 positions. A 3-4 has 3 linemen and one (or more) linebacker attacking the offense. The concept of a 3-4 is that you don't know where the additional pass rush is coming from. Everyone should be "rushing" at least 5 people to account for the C and each T and G. In a 4-3, you're rushing your DT's and DE's, and maybe 1 extra. A "blitz" means you're bringin at least one more person than the opposing offense has blockers. That's 5 men in a traditional set (C, LT, LG, RT, RG). In a 4-3, you're always rushing 4 and relying on a 5th (LB, usually) to cover the QB or a slot receiver. In a 3-4, you're rushing 3 and having to bring in an extra LB to cover the run/rush or count on them to cover the receivers.

Bottom line, effectiveness depends on personnel. In a 4-3, you need big, athletic linemen. In a 3-4, you need fast, athletic linebackers. 6, half dozen or the other. It's a matter of personnel and preference. The transition could theoretically be made in a single offseason if the FA market played out well.

mussop
12-01-2009, 02:06 AM
Looking throught his thread makes you realize there are a ton of options available that could make the transition from a 4/3 to a 3/4 quick and easy.

#1 need - a BIG DT.
Options
Someone menchoned Wilfork as a FA.
Hampton
Mount Cody from Alabama

#2 need - improve the LB's
Great thing about Cushing is that he can play inside or out. That means we can go after the best available LB whether he plays inside or out. Spikes, Rolando McLain, Micah Johnson, Sergio Kindle, Sean Weatherspoon, Eric Norwood, Greg Hardy, Derrick Morgan, Corey Wooton, Jerry Hughes, Brandon Graham are all good fits for a 3/4.

Obvioulsy the first thing to do is get center peice. Go hard after Hampton and Wilfork. Second option would be draft one like Cody.

Lets say we get Hampton who wants to join back up with Cowher. That completes our line. We now have Mario- Hampton- Smith up front. Now lets move to the secod level. There are a lot of options here. Im going to go with Brandon Spikes. He plays with an edge and thats how youre LB's have to play in a 3/4. Remember the poke in the eye incident? Wow with Mario and Hampton pushing the middle, Spikes and Smith cheap shotting people and Cushing, Demeco and Barwin flying around we might actually intimidate someone. Thats what I want a hard nosed defense that will get people out of their gameplan.

I could of gone with any of 5 players over Spikes and it looks just as good.
Rolando McLain, Micah Johnson, Derrick Morgan, Sergio Kindle, Sean Weatherspoon, Eric Norwood.

Mario - Hampton - Smith
Barwin - Ryans - Spikes - Cushing

Thats not a bad front seven to start with.

And I dont care what position we drafted Mario to play. If it makes the team better and helps us become a legit playoff team then its worth it. Besides I think he will be a better player in the 3/4. He is more than capable of dropping into coverage occasionally to confuse QB's. Lining him up between Hampton and Barwin and blitzing would mean 1 on 1 for Mario with a guard.

I actually think he is taylor made for this. He is not the speed rusher some think he is. That has been proven this year. I know he hs been hurt but too large a % of his plays are him getting rode out of the play trying to run around the OT. Those plays are a complete waste of him being on the feild. Hes being totally nuetralized by 1 player. At least in a 3/4 he would be getting one on one with a guard or tying up the OT so a LB can shoot through. We know hes good at tying up OT's. :P

Now thats fixed and we still have the rest of our draft picks to draft a safety and a couple OG's with sand in their pants. Seems simple to me. I just dont understand why some think it would be so hard switching to a 3/4.

leebigeztx
12-01-2009, 02:23 AM
Looking throught his thread makes you realize there are a ton of options available that could make the transition from a 4/3 to a 3/4 quick and easy.

#1 need - a BIG DT.
Options
Someone menchoned Wilfork as a FA.
Hampton
Mount Cody from Alabama

#2 need - improve the LB's
Great thing about Cushing is that he can play inside or out. That means we can go after the best available LB whether he plays inside or out. Spikes, Rolando McLain, Micah Johnson, Sergio Kindle, Sean Weatherspoon, Eric Norwood, Greg Hardy, Derrick Morgan, Corey Wooton, Jerry Hughes, Brandon Graham are all good fits for a 3/4.

Obvioulsy the first thing to do is get center peice. Go hard after Hampton and Wilfork. Second option would be draft one like Cody.

Lets say we get Hampton who wants to join back up with Cowher. That completes our line. We now have Mario- Hampton- Smith up front. Now lets move to the secod level. There are a lot of options here. Im going to go with Brandon Spikes. He plays with an edge and thats how youre LB's have to play in a 3/4. Remember the poke in the eye incident? Wow with Mario and Hampton pushing the middle, Spikes and Smith cheap shotting people and Cushing, Demeco and Barwin flying around we might actually intimidate someone. Thats what I want a hard nosed defense that will get people out of their gameplan.

I could of gone with any of 5 players over Spikes and it looks just as good.
Rolando McLain, Micah Johnson, Derrick Morgan, Sergio Kindle, Sean Weatherspoon, Eric Norwood.

Mario - Hampton - Smith
Barwin - Ryans - Spikes - Cushing

Thats not a bad front seven to start with.

And I dont care what position we drafted Mario to play. If it makes the team better and helps us become a legit playoff team then its worth it. Besides I think he will be a better player in the 3/4. He is more than capable of dropping into coverage occasionally to confuse QB's. Lining him up between Hampton and Barwin and blitzing would mean 1 on 1 for Mario with a guard.

I actually think he is taylor made for this. He is not the speed rusher some think he is. That has been proven this year. I know he hs been hurt but too large a % of his plays are him getting rode out of the play trying to run around the OT. Those plays are a complete waste of him being on the feild. Hes being totally nuetralized by 1 player. At least in a 3/4 he would be getting one on one with a guard or tying up the OT so a LB can shoot through. We know hes good at tying up OT's. :P

Now thats fixed and we still have the rest of our draft picks to draft a safety and a couple OG's with sand in their pants. Seems simple to me. I just dont understand why some think it would be so hard switching to a 3/4.

If it was that easy, more teams would do it. The chiefs drafted the kid this year and the kid last yr that no longer fits. Not to mention, they have a 0 at nt. The reason why its harder than you think is because different coaches play it different.

The parcells tree guys have a certain way and certain type of guy. They play more traditional 2 gapping with outside pressure. Cowher also falls in this category from his days in pittsburgh. Wade has always been a slanting type of guy as evident byjay ratliff playing the nt. They're basically a 3-4 but ware rushes all the time for the most part. If it was as easy as you say, capers wouldve been successful in doing it. I mean the guy did it in pitt and carolina yet couldnt get it down here in houston.

mussop
12-01-2009, 02:25 AM
Just thinking outloud.

Wonder if Bulman could slim down a bit and play OLB in a 3/4? We also have Tim Jamison and Jesse Nading who could possibly convert to 3/4 OLB's.

Wonder what we could get in trade for Okoye? He seems like the odd man out in a switch.

DerekLee1
12-01-2009, 02:33 AM
A good coach plays to his personnel. A style transition only takes 2 years at most. Kubiak made the transition in 1 offeason. If Cowher came in here and wanted a 3-4 defense, it would also happen in one season. Players will either adapt or be cut or traded. It's not THAT big a damn deal. Giving up a lineman for a linebacker (or vice versa) happens every offesason. Quit overstating it; smart players will adapt or be cut.

mussop
12-01-2009, 02:51 AM
If it was that easy, more teams would do it. The chiefs drafted the kid this year and the kid last yr that no longer fits. Not to mention, they have a 0 at nt. The reason why its harder than you think is because different coaches play it different.

The parcells tree guys have a certain way and certain type of guy. They play more traditional 2 gapping with outside pressure. Cowher also falls in this category from his days in pittsburgh. Wade has always been a slanting type of guy as evident byjay ratliff playing the nt. They're basically a 3-4 but ware rushes all the time for the most part. If it was as easy as you say, capers wouldve been successful in doing it. I mean the guy did it in pitt and carolina yet couldnt get it down here in houston.

Capers didnt have the talent we have now. Getting a legit NT is the main part and as I pointed out there are several options that should be available for us to do just that. With a good NT the rest of our defense might not be exactly what you look for in a traditional 3/4 but it does have enough talent to work. Denver had less talent then us when they switched and they are ranked #5 total defense right now.

In fact 4 out of the top five defenses right now are 3/4 and 3 out of those 4 just switched this year. Denver (#5) the Jets (#2) and Green Bay (#1). Guess who the other 3/4 top defense (#3) is. Its Pittsburg, who runs the exact sytem we are talking about here.

If you look at Green Bay, Denver and the Jets defensive depth chart at the beginning of this year. (beforer the draft and free agency) I bet we have fairly equal talent if not better than any of them. If they can do it and do it at that level then we should be able to too.

Oh yeh and you pointed out Capers wasnt able to do it here. He is doing it in GreenBay. That just goes to show we didnt have the talent.

LonerATO
12-01-2009, 03:16 AM
Capers didnt have the talent we have now. Getting a legit NT is the main part and as I pointed out there are several options that should be available for us to do just that. With a good NT the rest of our defense might not be exactly what you look for in a traditional 3/4 but it does have enough talent to work. Denver had less talent then us when they switched and they are ranked #5 total defense right now.

In fact 4 out of the top five defenses right now are 3/4 and 3 out of those 4 just switched this year. Denver (#5) the Jets (#2) and Green Bay (#1). Guess who the other 3/4 top defense (#3) is. Its Pittsburg, who runs the exact sytem we are talking about here.

If you look at Green Bay, Denver and the Jets defensive depth chart at the beginning of this year. (beforer the draft and free agency) I bet we have fairly equal talent if not better than any of them. If they can do it and do it at that level then we should be able to too.

Oh yeh and you pointed out Capers wasnt able to do it here. He is doing it in GreenBay. That just goes to show we didnt have the talent.

Jets were 3-4 when Mangini was the coach and as if your looking to draft a NT Cody will have issues being a every down 3-4.

painekiller
12-01-2009, 03:41 AM
if demeco played the 3-4 middle, he would be the strongside. Thats means he would have to hit and standup blockers and spill them to the inside weak guy. Compare demeco to guys like david harris or farrior in pittsburgh and you will understand what i'm saying. there have been smaller guys playing inside strong in the 3-4, but not many. Ryans is a run and hit guy.

One of the greatest LILB of all time was Sam Mills, 5-9, 229
he played with LOLB Rickey Jackson, 6-2 243
RILB Vaughan Johnson 6-3 235
ROLB Pat Swilling 6-3 245

Granted the NFL player has grown on average. When Mills played a 300 lbs player was a freak, today he is the considered smallish.

mussop
12-01-2009, 03:47 AM
Jets were 3-4 when Mangini was the coach and as if your looking to draft a NT Cody will have issues being a every down 3-4.

Thats fine them take them out of the discussion. That still leaves Denver and Green Bay as examples of teams that have swithched to a 3/4 with success with simular talent as we now have.

Also Codys cardio is blown way out of proportion. He will get drafted by someone to be a starting DT and he'll be a good one.

TimeKiller
12-01-2009, 08:32 AM
It's too bad Okam isn't a player because he's got the right size.

If Cowher was brought in and he was able to yank Hampton down....

------------Mario-Hampton-91/94---------------
---IDKwho----Cushing-Ryans-----Barwin---------
Reeves----Pollard--------Taylor Mays----Quin----

Bringing in Hampton would be accomplished through Cowher, Draft Mays, Grab a LBer middle rounds and that looks like a damn good 3/4 defense to me. Mario would still be a factor, Hampton would do what he do, Okoye and Smith can try to fill in across the way. Cushing is versatile and all but his power belongs in the middle. Ryans still would be a janitor behind Hampton and Barwin would be fully unleashed at 34OLB. Drob walks, Quin steps in across Reeves, Pollard still brings the wood and Taylor Mays adds a big ol' cherry on top. I'm serious, I'd love to see how this setup would handle Peyton Manning.

Hervoyel
12-01-2009, 11:44 AM
I've seen so many posts now over the past year or so stating that Mario for instance can't play on the line in a 3-4 and just as many saying he's perfect for the 3-4 as an end and still others saying he goes to OLB and doesn't fit (or fits perfectly) that I've concluded that as a group we know absolutely nothing about this.

I believe that if a coach like Cowher were to come here and choose to make the change to a 3-4 he'd do it because he was certain we could succeed with it. I'd hope he wasn't so dead set on a change that he'd make it in spite of our personnel.

nero THE zero
12-01-2009, 11:50 AM
I've seen so many posts now over the past year or so stating that Mario for instance can't play on the line in a 3-4 and just as many saying he's perfect for the 3-4 as an end and still others saying he goes to OLB and doesn't fit (or fits perfectly) that I've concluded that as a group we know absolutely nothing about this.

I believe that if a coach like Cowher were to come here and choose to make the change to a 3-4 he'd do it because he was certain we could succeed with it. I'd hope he wasn't so dead set on a change that he'd make it in spite of our personnel.

It's pretty easy to discern who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't, IMO.

Yankee_In_TX
12-01-2009, 12:12 PM
WTF? Seriously? WHY? Do you want to have another 3 years as we 'get the pieces in place' and 'transisition to the new [old] system?'

Did I miss something?

badboy
12-01-2009, 12:14 PM
3-4 huh? Just when I finally give up on getting a huge run stopping DT and this D starts to jell, we change the plan? I am a big 3-4 guy after watching the Oilers, but you have to have the correct front 3 cause they are going to take a beating. Not saying these guys with Dan WIlliams could not but that is putting a lot on a rookie. You would also be pretty much giving up on 2nd rounder Barwin IMO.

LonerATO
12-01-2009, 12:37 PM
3-4 huh? Just when I finally give up on getting a huge run stopping DT and this D starts to jell, we change the plan? I am a big 3-4 guy after watching the Oilers, but you have to have the correct front 3 cause they are going to take a beating. Not saying these guys with Dan WIlliams could not but that is putting a lot on a rookie. You would also be pretty much giving up on 2nd rounder Barwin IMO.

Barwin was expected to be a 3-4 DE/OLB drafted by 3-4 teams, but ended up being drafted by the Texans

BattleRedToro
12-01-2009, 12:42 PM
3-4 huh? Just when I finally give up on getting a huge run stopping DT and this D starts to jell, we change the plan? I am a big 3-4 guy after watching the Oilers, but you have to have the correct front 3 cause they are going to take a beating. Not saying these guys with Dan WIlliams could not but that is putting a lot on a rookie. You would also be pretty much giving up on 2nd rounder Barwin IMO.

The player that would sufferthe most would be Okoye, not Barwin.

TimeKiller
12-01-2009, 12:59 PM
The player that would sufferthe most would be Okoye, not Barwin.

I guess we can all act like Okoye struggling is something new?

BigBull17
12-01-2009, 01:02 PM
I don't know. I think that Meco is a very good MLB and very good MLB can play 3-4 or 4-3. Meco is comprable to a Patrick Willis in my mind. Maybe not as good, but in the same discussion.

Can you imagine if we went to a 3-4 in 2007? Imagine drafting Willis and teaming him with Meco in the middle! And then imagine if we got Cush last draft and still had Mario!

WOW

Dont hurt me anymore. I REALLY wanted Willis that year.

Demeco is good enough to play in any scheme

Don't count out Bentley, he could play next to Demeco in a 3-4 too, not just Diles


I like Bently at the ILB over Diles. He doesnt play big, and I don't think he could handel it, IMO.

Hervoyel
12-01-2009, 01:10 PM
It's pretty easy to discern who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't, IMO.


And every single person posting believes the same thing.

Jackie Chiles
12-01-2009, 01:34 PM
I've seen so many posts now over the past year or so stating that Mario for instance can't play on the line in a 3-4 and just as many saying he's perfect for the 3-4 as an end and still others saying he goes to OLB and doesn't fit (or fits perfectly) that I've concluded that as a group we know absolutely nothing about this.

I don't think there is much of an argument about Mario being able to play on a 3-4 line, the argument (and it certainly has merit) of some is that his talent and pass rushing would be wasted at that spot. He would still be a great 3-4 end but those guys aren't usually playmakers like 4-3 DEs. Personally I think hes great in either position and could probably mix in a little PT at 3-4 OLB.

nero THE zero
12-01-2009, 01:45 PM
And every single person posting believes the same thing.

I don't really know what you're trying to say here. Are you disputing the fact that it's easy to discern between the posters who display a clear understanding of the intricacies, terminology, and schematics of football and those quite clearly shooting from the hip (or elsewhere on the anatomy)?

Because, I can give you some direction if you don't see it.

mussop
12-01-2009, 02:46 PM
It's pretty easy to discern who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't, IMO.

Its simple, the people who agree with me know what they are talking about and the people who dont dont. :cowboy1:

Yankee_In_TX
12-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Its simple, the people who agree with me know what they are talking about and the people who dont dont. :cowboy1:

LOL, rep.

Hervoyel
12-01-2009, 03:59 PM
Its simple, the people who agree with me know what they are talking about and the people who dont dont. :cowboy1:

Something along those lines though I don't feel like you must agree with me in particular. I know what I think and I'm as likely to be wrong as I am right. I'm just watching everyone get their expert on and getting a chuckle out of it.