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View Full Version : When will Connor Barwin turn the corner?


Big Lou
10-25-2009, 07:56 PM
I know Connor Barwin has only been playing Defense for a year and a half now, but as a second round pic he should be contirbuting at some point in the season.


When do you think he'll be worth the 2nd round pick Rick Smith used?

Wolf
10-25-2009, 07:58 PM
I think he has tried but those pesky RTs and LTs are in the way :spin:

seriously I am not sure when he will get it going

Marcus
10-25-2009, 07:59 PM
Later on this season. I'm not worried about it.

m5kwatts
10-25-2009, 08:05 PM
He's already been contributing pressure and had a few passes knocked down, I don't think he's struggling as much as the stat sheet suggests

Pantherstang84
10-25-2009, 08:15 PM
He's already been contributing pressure and had a few passes knocked down, I don't think he's struggling as much as the stat sheet suggests

Gasp! Blasphemy!

GP
10-25-2009, 08:23 PM
I know Connor Barwin has only been playing Defense for a year and a half now, but as a second round pic he should be contirbuting at some point in the season.

When do you think he'll be worth the 2nd round pick Rick Smith used?

Sadly, I don't think he's going to do as well as we'd expect from a 2nd rounder. Had he been a 4th rounder, I'm good with what he does out there. But he took up a 2nd round pick.

Since when is a 2nd rounder used as a situational player, limited on which down-and-distance situations exist during the game? You shouldn't, IMO. Unless he is so super-duper that he's worth the limited time.

Is he worth it? I don't think so.

In fact, I'm not too high on ANY of our d-line players right now.

TheIronDuke
10-25-2009, 09:45 PM
In fact, I'm not too high on ANY of our d-line players right now.

I agree here. 39 year old Zgonina has one less sack this season than Mario for God's sakes. They've improved in stopping the run but they just don't do anything rushing the passer.

stingray
10-25-2009, 10:19 PM
Sadly, I don't think he's going to do as well as we'd expect from a 2nd rounder. Had he been a 4th rounder, I'm good with what he does out there. But he took up a 2nd round pick.

Since when is a 2nd rounder used as a situational player, limited on which down-and-distance situations exist during the game? You shouldn't, IMO. Unless he is so super-duper that he's worth the limited time.

Is he worth it? I don't think so.

In fact, I'm not too high on ANY of our d-line players right now.

Ummm...... You have some mighty high expectations of draft picks in the NFL overall.. What would u expect of a second rounder? Demeco was an anomaly. Most second round picks don't even see the field on a consistent basis until year two. Do you expect him to get like 8 sacks?

TexCanada
10-25-2009, 10:25 PM
We didn't really draft him with the expectation of being a starter. We knew we had Mario and Smith as starters, we just need Barwin to learn from these guys. I would give him at least a couple of years before I would have these high expectations for him. If he gets 2 or 3 sacks this year, doesn't make any glaring mistakes, and gives our starters a chance to catch their breath on the sidelines here and there then I think that would be considered a successful year for him.

Norg
10-25-2009, 11:25 PM
who knows lwt just been fun with him and move hmm to another Position maybe


Special teams

run a Few two TE sets with him

Fullback to give Leech a rest

hell let him play some OLB

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 06:17 AM
Sadly, I don't think he's going to do as well as we'd expect from a 2nd rounder. Had he been a 4th rounder, I'm good with what he does out there. But he took up a 2nd round pick.

Since when is a 2nd rounder used as a situational player, limited on which down-and-distance situations exist during the game? You shouldn't, IMO. Unless he is so super-duper that he's worth the limited time.

Is he worth it? I don't think so.

In fact, I'm not too high on ANY of our d-line players right now.

Wrong perspective! You're still thinking like an expansion franchise... Pittsburgh Steelers usually don't start their first or second round picks for at least one season, often those guys don't even see the field except on special teams. New England is the same way. Here are a few examples, off the top of my head:

Troy Polamalu
B. Meriweather
L.Timmons
Woodley
L. Sweed

there's a few off the top of my head.

Drafting for immediate contribution is short-sighted. If the Texans were confident Barwin would become a great DE, then they shouldn't avoid him simply because he may take 1-2 seasons to develop into a good one.

TimeKiller
10-26-2009, 07:50 AM
Looked like he was providing some pressure yesterday.

He is contributing by the way. It may not be a lot but he isn't exactly playing a lot is he? Now with SF 21 down (clearly they knew) they starting slinging the ball he should've been in on 2nds and maybe a few 1st downs pinning his ears back to get to the QB. He also gives Frank Bush the ability to throw in some zone blitzes to confuse....somebody.

GP
10-26-2009, 08:47 AM
Wrong perspective! You're still thinking like an expansion franchise... Pittsburgh Steelers usually don't start their first or second round picks for at least one season, often those guys don't even see the field except on special teams. New England is the same way. Here are a few examples, off the top of my head:

Troy Polamalu
B. Meriweather
L.Timmons
Woodley
L. Sweed

there's a few off the top of my head.

Drafting for immediate contribution is short-sighted. If the Texans were confident Barwin would become a great DE, then they shouldn't avoid him simply because he may take 1-2 seasons to develop into a good one.

I expect 1st and 2nd rounders to play immediately, and to do very well.

This pick, where it was made and upon whom it was made, was a reach IMO.

Kaiser Toro
10-26-2009, 08:51 AM
Barwin will be fine, there is always room for an athletic pass rushing specialist. I expect him to get better, just as the defensive unit shows steady improvement. Get us a freaking Safety!

TimeKiller
10-26-2009, 11:18 AM
The negativity surrounding this guy is suffocatingly stupid. Some expectations around here need some serious reeling in. I'm as optomistic as anyone (I think I put him down for 7 sacks on a poll) but if the best outcome possible isn't what happened please, don't just freak out instead. He plays more than some would think, contributes when he does and added something the team didn't have. For a 2nd round pick that's dynamite. No, it's not a nuclear bomb but we drafted that guy in the 1st!

Get real. 2nd round picks don't start on good teams. They contribute. Who is starting from this 2nd round that we could've had? Laraunitis is the only one I can think of and he was gone way before the texans pick.

NitroGSXR
10-26-2009, 11:19 AM
I think Barwin's doing great! You guys are nuts. Sacks aren't the only thing one looks at.

swtbound07
10-26-2009, 11:22 AM
I think Barwin's doing great! You guys are nuts. Sacks aren't the only thing one looks at.

It is for a highly drafted pass rush only specialist?

NitroGSXR
10-26-2009, 11:29 AM
It is for a highly drafted pass rush only specialist?

No, it is not.

The kid puts pressure on QBs. He's also got his eyes on the ball. Swatted down a couple of passes (if not more). He's off to a promising start and I'm pretty happy with it.

swtbound07
10-26-2009, 11:29 AM
No, it is not.

The kid puts pressure on QBs. He's also got his eyes on the ball. Swatted down a couple of passes (if not more). He's off to a promising start and I'm pretty happy with it.

we will agree to disagree. He's been damn near invisible for 7 games.

infantrycak
10-26-2009, 11:31 AM
I think Barwin's doing great! You guys are nuts. Sacks aren't the only thing one looks at.

What he said.

It is for a highly drafted pass rush only specialist?

No it isn't. Affecting the passing game is what counts. Sometimes that is sacks. Mario isn't getting tons of those either, but both he and Barwin are consistently making the QB move, making him dump the ball, throw on the move, etc. That is affecting the passing game. The Texans are now middle of the league on passer rating against them. That's a big improvement.

badboy
10-26-2009, 11:31 AM
For me the pick was for potential that Barwin may grow into. It is not the pick I would have made but I understand what Simithiac wanted. Anything we get this season is gravy and I do expect he will do well as we go thru the season. I selected #2. We do need a FS.

No More 8-8's
10-26-2009, 01:46 PM
I want to say that Barwin is better utilized on artificial Turf rather than Real Grass. His speed is outstanding, and can better be utilized where he has better footing. We have yet to play a game with artificial turf. I am hoping that the INDY game he will turn some heads.

beerlover
10-26-2009, 01:56 PM
2-3 years. needs more reps. Calais Campbell is blowing up for Arizona but during his rookie season (08) only showed flashes which is what Barwin is doing now. give him & Kollar more time to work things out :shades:

GP
10-26-2009, 03:35 PM
The negativity surrounding this guy is suffocatingly stupid. Some expectations around here need some serious reeling in. I'm as optomistic as anyone (I think I put him down for 7 sacks on a poll) but if the best outcome possible isn't what happened please, don't just freak out instead. He plays more than some would think, contributes when he does and added something the team didn't have. For a 2nd round pick that's dynamite. No, it's not a nuclear bomb but we drafted that guy in the 1st!

Get real. 2nd round picks don't start on good teams. They contribute. Who is starting from this 2nd round that we could've had? Laraunitis is the only one I can think of and he was gone way before the texans pick.

You want to know the player who has the most suffocatingly stupid critics?

Jacoby Jones.

He scores TDs in special teams AND as a receiver, and there is a legion of posters on here who kill him every time he bobbles a ball.

Jacoby should get a break, when compared to his impact on our team vs. Barwin.

In Barwin, all I see is a small guy who doesn't have good enough d-linemen to help him do what he was drafted to do: Speed through gaps or around edges. If we had bruising DTs, him and Mario would be competing for most sacks every game.

Until then, the guy is not being as effective as he was drafted to be.

It was a misplaced draft pick, for what we have on the d-line. Versus the mighty 49ers, our d-line couldn't hardly push the line of scrimmage back on pass plays. That win was really a lucky win, IMO.

I won't reserve my disdain just for Barwin. The whole d-line is playing pathetic. Maybe we've shut down the run. Holding Gore down is good. But is the price that's paid is that we don't knock the QB down anymore?

(Sigh)

Just tired of trying to be positive about this d-line. I've given up.

badboy
10-26-2009, 03:42 PM
You want to know the player who has the most suffocatingly stupid critics?

Jacoby Jones.

He scores TDs in special teams AND as a receiver, and there is a legion of posters on here who kill him every time he bobbles a ball.

Jacoby should get a break, when compared to his impact on our team vs. Barwin.

In Barwin, all I see is a small guy who doesn't have good enough d-linemen to help him do what he was drafted to do: Speed through gaps or around edges. If we had bruising DTs, him and Mario would be competing for most sacks every game.

Until then, the guy is not being as effective as he was drafted to be.

It was a misplaced draft pick, for what we have on the d-line. Versus the mighty 49ers, our d-line couldn't hardly push the line of scrimmage back on pass plays. That win was really a lucky win, IMO.

I won't reserve my disdain just for Barwin. The whole d-line is playing pathetic. Maybe we've shut down the run. Holding Gore down is good. But is the price that's paid is that we don't knock the QB down anymore?

(Sigh)

Just tired of trying to be positive about this d-line. I've given up.Don't give up. This time next week we will be 5-3 and talking Super Bowl!:ant:

76Texan
10-26-2009, 03:52 PM
Not counting the Niners game, we have a combination of 90 QB sacks/hurries/hits through 6 games (ave. 15) as compared with 191 in 16 games (ave. 11.93) last year.

Mario and Cody have battled injuries.
And Barwin needs time.

But, yes, I expect more from Antonio Smith (about 10-15% more in outputs.)

infantrycak
10-26-2009, 04:06 PM
Not counting the Niners game, we have a combination of 90 QB sacks/hurries/hits through 6 games (ave. 15) as compared with 191 in 16 games (ave. 11.93) last year.

Mario and Cody have battled injuries.
And Barwin needs time.

But, yes, I expect more from Antonio Smith (about 10-15% more in outputs.)

Thank you. That is a gigantic difference and folks judging the pass rush on sacks alone are being ignorant.

badboy
10-26-2009, 04:12 PM
Thank you. That is a gigantic difference and folks judging the pass rush on sacks alone are being ignorant.I have to admit it is higher than I thought. Now if Smith will kick it into higher gear.

spurstexanstros
10-26-2009, 04:16 PM
we will agree to disagree. He's been damn near invisible for 7 games.

I agree with you Barwin was a reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaachhhhhhhh.

I wonder if Glenn Cofee or Shaun Greene could have gotten that one yard we needed in two games. As I and SWT said on draft day we had other needs to be addressed with the second round pick. I felt RBs was one of them especially if Slaton hit the sophomore wall (and he has had issues) or got injured.


Barwin did have the one sack...I guess he is tied with Zgonina in the sack department. Was a second round pick worth one sack in 7 games? IMO ....no

76Texan
10-26-2009, 04:22 PM
I agree with you Barwin was a reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaachhhhhhhh.

I wonder if Glenn Cofee or Shaun Greene could have gotten that one yard we needed in two games. As I and SWT said on draft day we had other needs to be addressed with the second round pick. I felt RBs was one of them especially if Slaton hit the sophomore wall (and he has had issues) or got injured.


Barwin did have the one sack...I guess he is tied with Zgonina in the sack department. Was a second round pick worth one sack in 7 games? IMO ....no

If you pro-rate the number of plays he participated in, Barwin's production is only slightly below Okoye's level.

76Texan
10-26-2009, 04:25 PM
I have to admit it is higher than I thought. Now if Smith will kick it into higher gear.

It's not so strange!
You're right about us still not having enough pressure, because we sucked last year in this department.

I expect/hope that our guys will become more efficient as they play together longer.

TimeKiller
10-26-2009, 04:32 PM
Jacoby is in his 3rd year, only now coming around to the player we saw flashes of his first preseason. With PLENTY of gut shattering moments in between. He earned his criticism and while I think we're all happy to see him improve some deficiencies and produce on the field he has to know that the expectation now is for him to take another step.

I guess I can't make you like Barwin but it seems like your criticisms of him are built on sand.

infantrycak
10-26-2009, 04:34 PM
I agree with you Barwin was a reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaachhhhhhhh.

So Barwin was a reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaachhhhhhhh but taking either of two RB's the NFL collectively decided were 3rd round talent in the mid 2nd wouldn't have been a reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaachhhhhhhh? Ummm, ok.

Mailman
10-26-2009, 04:41 PM
Affecting the passing game is what counts. Sometimes that is sacks. Mario isn't getting tons of those either, but both he and Barwin are consistently making the QB move, making him dump the ball, throw on the move, etc. That is affecting the passing game. The Texans are now middle of the league on passer rating against them. That's a big improvement.

this^this^this^this^this^this^this^this^this^this^

I do not understand why everyone is harping on the Texans pass rush. While they may not be racking up the sack stats, there is no question in my mind that they are getting consistent pressure on the opposing quarterback. How many times do you find yourself coming out of your seat saying "oooooh oh oh get 'em Mariooooo oh ahh gahhhhh" only to see the quarterback barely get the pass off or scramble out of the pocket for safety? Speaking for myself, ALL THE TIME.

The defense is much improved over last year's, and I think the sacks will soon start to come in bunches.

76Texan
10-26-2009, 04:46 PM
this^this^this^this^this^this^this^this^this^this^

I do not understand why everyone is harping on the Texans pass rush. While they may not be racking up the sack stats, there is no question in my mind that they are getting consistent pressure on the opposing quarterback. How many times do you find yourself coming out of your seat saying "oooooh oh oh get 'em Mariooooo oh ahh gahhhhh" only to see the quarterback barely get the pass off or scramble out of the pocket for safety? Speaking for myself, ALL THE TIME.

The defense is much improved over last year's, and I think the sacks will soon start to come in bunches.

Bringing more men to the LOS helped (which we did.)
The good thing is we're not burned too much lately by doing that, unlike last year!

(But who knows, things can change in a hurry in the NFL) LOL!

TexCanada
10-26-2009, 04:47 PM
Also, our secondary is still average at best. They are improving but are still definately not among the best in the league. This is HUGE when it comes to the sack totals, because the opposing QB's have a lot easier time getting rid of the ball sooner if somone is open, instead of looking down 2 or 3 options and not being able to find a target.

NitroGSXR
10-26-2009, 04:54 PM
Also, our secondary is still average at best. They are improving but are still definately not among the best in the league. This is HUGE when it comes to the sack totals, because the opposing QB's have a lot easier time getting rid of the ball sooner if somone is open, instead of looking down 2 or 3 options and not being able to find a target.

I think we've battled three pretty good teams in Jacksonville (2nd half which is where it all started to come together), Arizona, and Cincinnati. We're mainly recovering from our horrendous NFL worst defensive start to the season. I don't know the numbers but it sure seems like the Houston Texans have probably the NFL's best defense since that 2nd half verses the Jaguars. I'm feeling pretty good about our defense right now. We're gelling pretty good.

Bring on Buffalo in the cold.

TexCanada
10-26-2009, 05:19 PM
I think we've battled three pretty good teams in Jacksonville (2nd half which is where it all started to come together), Arizona, and Cincinnati. We're mainly recovering from our horrendous NFL worst defensive start to the season. I don't know the numbers but it sure seems like the Houston Texans have probably the NFL's best defense since that 2nd half verses the Jaguars. I'm feeling pretty good about our defense right now. We're gelling pretty good.

Bring on Buffalo in the cold.

I agree, I'm just saying that a lot goes into getting a sack. It is just as much about the execution as the defense as a whole, as it is a personel effort from a player. Like you said, we are starting to gel, and I think the sack numbers will rise as we continue to do so.

NitroGSXR
10-26-2009, 06:02 PM
I agree, I'm just saying that a lot goes into getting a sack. It is just as much about the execution as the defense as a whole, as it is a personel effort from a player. Like you said, we are starting to gel, and I think the sack numbers will rise as we continue to do so.

Yeah but you're saying that our secondary is average at best. It's really not what I've seen over the last four games. Arizona was a beaut to watch. Especially after seeing them rack on the passing yards after our game. Interceptions are great but so are three and outs. I'll take a steady dose of three and outs over an interception here and there.

I'm not saying that we have a great defensive line nor a great secondary. I'm saying we've got a defensive unit that's working extremely well... to the likes of... the best in the NFL since that second half. Personal gaudy stats be damned.

GP
10-26-2009, 07:01 PM
Thank you. That is a gigantic difference and folks judging the pass rush on sacks alone are being ignorant.

Sacks? I'd be happy with touching the QB once in awhile.

A glancing blow. A shove. Something that resembles contact.

49ers beat themselves. Cincy, to a degree, beat themselves. We don't scare any team's opposing o-line and/or QB. Teams will figure out that the way to beat us is through the air. The Cardinals game (1st half) and the 9ers game (second half) is the blueprint to beat us.

We clamped down on the run. What o-coord is going to blow us up for 59 points in the coming weeks? Colts, for starters. The Bills will be our toughest test since the Jets. Road game, two good RBs who catch out of the backfield really well, and a QB who has T.O. and Lee Evans. And nothing to lose.

infantrycak
10-26-2009, 09:04 PM
The Bills will be our toughest test since the Jets.

Yeah, beating the division leading Bengals (have you noticed who they have beaten) and because of us second place 9'ers pales in comparison to the awesome Bills.

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2009, 09:12 PM
I'm not reading every post so if I repeat something oh well .

Connor Barwin is a smart , athletic guy with a nonstop motor . To me , those guys very seldom fail .

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 09:25 PM
I expect 1st and 2nd rounders to play immediately, and to do very well.

This pick, where it was made and upon whom it was made, was a reach IMO.

So, in your expert opinion, Troy Polamalu was a bad pick, right?

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 09:27 PM
According to GP, Mario Williams was also a bad draft pick.

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 09:29 PM
According to GP, Anthony Thomas (RB) was a great pick. After all, he was offensive rookie of the year. Who cares what happened to his career after that. Everyone knows that you grade 1st and 2nd round picks based on what they do as rookies!

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 09:31 PM
GP thinks Mike Vick was a pretty good draft pick but Carson Palmer was a bad pick because he sat behind John Kitna his rookie season while Vick shared snaps with Chandler.

Leftwich= good pick
Rick Mirer= good pick

Drew Brees= Bad pick!

this is all according to GP!

Silver Oak
10-26-2009, 09:36 PM
Barwin haters need to pick up the slack. Schaub Hate thread is up to 12 pages already.

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2009, 09:38 PM
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=SACKS&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=0&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go

http://images.quickblogcast.com/42427-38783/HatoradeBANNER.jpg

Kaiser Toro
10-26-2009, 09:44 PM
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=SACKS&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=0&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go

http://images.quickblogcast.com/42427-38783/HatoradeBANNER.jpg

Check out the year Jairus Byrd is having from Buffalo.

rmartin65
10-26-2009, 09:47 PM
Check out the year Jairus Byrd is having from Buffalo.

Yep. And I had him drafted in the 7 round mock draft. Boo Yah!

GP
10-26-2009, 09:48 PM
GP thinks Mike Vick was a pretty good draft pick but Carson Palmer was a bad pick because he sat behind John Kitna his rookie season while Vick shared snaps with Chandler.

Leftwich= good pick
Rick Mirer= good pick

Drew Brees= Bad pick!

this is all according to GP!

Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2009, 09:49 PM
Check out the year Jairus Byrd is having from Buffalo.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=68036&draftyear=2009&genpos=CB

Not bad at all .

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2009, 09:52 PM
Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

Actually I try to will them all to succeed .

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 09:53 PM
Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

You are deflecting the issue. I have no problem with you if you say that you are concerned whether he will develop into a good player for us in the next year or two. But, you are defining a good draft pick as a player who starts and plays well as a rookie. Clearly, you need to back off that statement or explain why those players I listed weren't good draft picks. Have enough intellectual integrity to do one or the other. By the way, there are plenty more examples, if you'd like them.

Carr Bombed
10-26-2009, 10:00 PM
Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

I agree with you on Barwin, that pick was a huge gamble....and if I had to take a guess right now. I'd say odds are better than he stays a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 (I actually think the guy would be a pretty good player in a 3-4) than the odds of him living up to that 2nd round draft pick...

However I don't understand your continued hate on Okoye, he IS growing/starting to realize his potential in this new scheme and has played alot better than years' past.

I think the Okoye pick might actually pay off after all....but I'd still LOVE to have Patrick Willis. Oh well, all this is hindsight.

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 10:09 PM
I agree with you on Barwin, that pick was a huge gamble....and if I had to take a guess right now. I'd say odds are better than he stays a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 (I actually think the guy would be a pretty good player in a 3-4) than the odds of him living up to that 2nd round draft pick...

However I don't understand your continued hate on Okoye, he IS growing/starting to realize his potential in this new scheme and has played alot better than years' past.

I think the Okoye pick might actually pay off after all....but I'd still LOVE to have Patrick Willis.

I actually agree with GP on Okoye. We are in year three and he has been abysmal for much of his career. Barwin provides this defense with a special skill and is already very good on ST. Barring serious injury, I don't see how he doesn't become a very productive role player at a vital and expensive position. Okoye's body of work suggests that he can occasionally get penetration on a pass play and occasionally get in the sight of a QB. I have seen some serious signs of improvement the past 4 weeks but he's already 1/2 through his contract and still isn't an asset for the team. I think Barwin is already an asset, though I do realize he's not a good player yet... does that make sense?

GP
10-26-2009, 10:16 PM
Yeah, beating the division leading Bengals (have you noticed who they have beaten) and because of us second place 9'ers pales in comparison to the awesome Bills.

Yeah, and I noticed how the Jets were crowned after their first few games, as well. The Cowboys beat the Falcons. I guess the 'Boys are back on track, too?

Pollard helped us gain a better footing for stopping the run. But the d-line is stuck at the line of scrimmage, rarely getting to the QB before he makes whatever throw he wants to make.

So if we're good with hoping that the WR drops the ball, or runs a bad route, or falls down, or the QB mis-throws the pass, then I think our d-line is playing awesome and will look great.

Otherwise, at some point, someone is going to drop lots of bombs on us. I think the Bills game could end up surprising a lot of Texans fans.

That's just me, though.

Lucky
10-26-2009, 10:22 PM
It'll never happen he's Jason Babin 2.0.
Babin had 63 tackles, 4 sacks, and 2 fumble recoveries as a rookie. So Barwin's not Jason Babin, just yet.

NitroGSXR
10-26-2009, 10:25 PM
Sacks? I'd be happy with touching the QB once in awhile.

A glancing blow. A shove. Something that resembles contact.

49ers beat themselves. Cincy, to a degree, beat themselves. We don't scare any team's opposing o-line and/or QB. Teams will figure out that the way to beat us is through the air. The Cardinals game (1st half) and the 9ers game (second half) is the blueprint to beat us.

We clamped down on the run. What o-coord is going to blow us up for 59 points in the coming weeks? Colts, for starters. The Bills will be our toughest test since the Jets. Road game, two good RBs who catch out of the backfield really well, and a QB who has T.O. and Lee Evans. And nothing to lose.
I think we've touched them QBs plenty.

What about the Cardinals game, GP? I'm not really seeing your point here. Was that Pollard's first game as a Texan? Also, was Reeves getting his ears back around then? I'm sure I'm wrong somewhere but it's got to be around that time.

49ers? Putting in a brand new QB for the second half kind of wrecks the gameplanning a little bit. It's going to be a little far fetched to think that everyone else is going to switch to their backup after the half. We still held them when it counted. That's where I'm seeing a clicking going on with this defense that's never been there before.

I think our biggest problem up to now has been scoring critical points. We sputter in the red zone. We can't run. If getting into a shootout is the only way to beat us then I like it because we can hang with just about anyone in the NFL when it comes to the air. When it comes to that, it's pretty much a toss up.

If so, then I don't really call that much of a blueprint. We've got problems which is the norm and Connor Barwin sure isn't detrimental to those problems. He came to play football and he's getting better and better the wetter his feet become. Are there better players out there? I'm sure there are but that's not really the goal here. The goal is to become the best unit in the NFL and I think we're getting there this season. These last 4 games have been extremely telling.

Come playoff time, teams better be able to stop the run otherwise they'll be controlled on both sides of the ball (offense and defense). We're stopping them right now. No, we're shutting them the bleep down. Keep telling yourself that the Bengals and the 49ers beat themselves. That's really silly though. I'd like to think that we beat them. We may lose in Buffalo. We may get our butts waxed in Indianapolis but that doesn't change the fact that we beat the 49ers and the Bengals.

TexanSacDawg
10-26-2009, 10:26 PM
The negativity surrounding this guy is suffocatingly stupid. Some expectations around here need some serious reeling in. I'm as optomistic as anyone (I think I put him down for 7 sacks on a poll) but if the best outcome possible isn't what happened please, don't just freak out instead. He plays more than some would think, contributes when he does and added something the team didn't have. For a 2nd round pick that's dynamite. No, it's not a nuclear bomb but we drafted that guy in the 1st!

Get real. 2nd round picks don't start on good teams. They contribute. Who is starting from this 2nd round that we could've had? Laraunitis is the only one I can think of and he was gone way before the texans pick.

well sean smith the corner was still available....

GP
10-26-2009, 10:37 PM
You are deflecting the issue. I have no problem with you if you say that you are concerned whether he will develop into a good player for us in the next year or two. But, you are defining a good draft pick as a player who starts and plays well as a rookie. Clearly, you need to back off that statement or explain why those players I listed weren't good draft picks. Have enough intellectual integrity to do one or the other. By the way, there are plenty more examples, if you'd like them.

Well, Dale, I had a feeling you'd come back to that well for more water.

Teams make good picks and they make bad picks. Just as the Brees pick, or the Brady pick, or the Terrell Davis pick was a pick that was made very late and was "missed" by lots of teams...there are teams who make a pick several rounds too early, passing on other options for that guy who they think is going to get scooped up early. Connor Barwin is the pick made several rounds too early. Just as Jason Babin was, too.

Nobody has to wait and see what Brian Cushing will do next season.

I think this team screwed the pooch in rounds 2, 3 and 4. With one exception: I have more hope for James Casey than I have for the other three guys we drafted in 2, 3, and 4.

No team is immune from screwing up and reaching. Glover Quin seems to be the only drafted CB since Dunta who might end up sticking. I think he's doing more than 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

But then again, I'm just really not sold on our d-line right now. Our LBs are off-the-chain. Our DBs are still sketchy, except their run support is getting much much better with each game.

Vernon Davis running that same route over the middle is stuck in my head. Alex Smith should not be standing up and throwing that pass with nobody touching him or making him throw off a back foot.

And the reason Mario struggled was because he was on a VERY broken team his rookie season. What's Connor Barwin's excuse? He's playing with Mario, Cushing, 'Meco, and a somewhat better-performing defense than the joke of a defense that Mario inherited.

NitroGSXR
10-26-2009, 10:54 PM
Well, Dale, I had a feeling you'd come back to that well for more water.

Teams make good picks and they make bad picks. Just as the Brees pick, or the Brady pick, or the Terrell Davis pick was a pick that was made very late and was "missed" by lots of teams...there are teams who make a pick several rounds too early, passing on other options for that guy who they think is going to get scooped up early. Connor Barwin is the pick made several rounds too early. Just as Jason Babin was, too.

Nobody has to wait and see what Brian Cushing will do next season.

I think this team screwed the pooch in rounds 2, 3 and 4. With one exception: I have more hope for James Casey than I have for the other three guys we drafted in 2, 3, and 4.

No team is immune from screwing up and reaching. Glover Quin seems to be the only drafted CB since Dunta who might end up sticking. I think he's doing more than 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

But then again, I'm just really not sold on our d-line right now. Our LBs are off-the-chain. Our DBs are still sketchy, except their run support is getting much much better with each game.

Vernon Davis running that same route over the middle is stuck in my head. Alex Smith should not be standing up and throwing that pass with nobody touching him or making him throw off a back foot.

And the reason Mario struggled was because he was on a VERY broken team his rookie season. What's Connor Barwin's excuse? He's playing with Mario, Cushing, 'Meco, and a somewhat better-performing defense than the joke of a defense that Mario inherited.

I really don't like the excuse question but I'll try to give my thoughts on it. I think Barwin's excuse is that he's only played on the line for less than two years now. I think you once compared him to have the potential of Kyle Vanden Bosch in terms of him always being the one who makes the QB throw just a second earlier yet never getting the sack.

I think I'm going to give Barwin a couple seasons more before writing him off. It's only fair that we give him the same amount of time we gave Mario and Okoye. For what its worth... being selected #10 overall as opposed to being selected in the middle of the second round is a tremendous difference in value. After 6 games, I'm not ready to make a determination on him and his value to the team. Let's see how he turns out.

Honoring Earl 34
10-26-2009, 10:57 PM
I really don't like the excuse question but I'll try to give my thoughts on it. I think Barwin's excuse is that he's only played on the line for less than two years now. I think you once compared him to have the potential of Kyle Vanden Bosch in terms of him always being the one who makes the QB throw just a second earlier yet never getting the sack.

I think I'm going to give Barwin a couple seasons more before writing him off. It's only fair that we give him the same amount of time we gave Mario and Okoye. For what its worth... being selected #10 overall as opposed to being selected in the middle of the second round is a tremendous difference in value.

Barwin also played basketball for two years and didn't hit the weights . He may be a gamble but an elite pass rusher is hard to find and takes time to develop .

Carr Bombed
10-26-2009, 11:05 PM
I actually agree with GP on Okoye. We are in year three and he has been abysmal for much of his career. Barwin provides this defense with a special skill and is already very good on ST. Barring serious injury, I don't see how he doesn't become a very productive role player at a vital and expensive position. Okoye's body of work suggests that he can occasionally get penetration on a pass play and occasionally get in the sight of a QB. I have seen some serious signs of improvement the past 4 weeks but he's already 1/2 through his contract and still isn't an asset for the team. I think Barwin is already an asset, though I do realize he's not a good player yet... does that make sense?

Okoye has been a different player in this new scheme........he's already matched the production he put up all of last year. The read and react scheme didn't fit him at all. Sorry, but I'm not going to hold a player responsible for simply being put in a position that he'll struggle to succeed in. The guy needs to be uses his quickness and get off the ball.....last year that wasn't the scheme. People just judge him off his pass failures in a bad scheme that didn't fit his game. Also I can't see how people can hold it against him for not coming in right away and lighting it up with bringing up how he's half way through his contract. It was known on draft day whoever took him, it was going to take longer than normal for him to mature, because he was 19. (at a position where it usually already takes a few years).

Fault the team for drafting him where he was taken and then sticking him in a position where he would fail instead of using few of the strengths that he does have.

As far as Barwin, the guy was drafted in the 2nd round.....he wasn't picked to just be a ST player. I understand the situational pass rush thing, but it's not like he's been going gangbusters there either. He does have 1 sack, but it's not like he's getting other pressures as well. This is not to say he won't become a every down DE (which if he never does, the pick is a failure...he can't stay a situational pass rusher and a STer forever with that investment.)

Both players were projects, which means they shouldn't of been drafted where they were to begin with. Which is the biggest black eye right now with Smith right now...he has drafted two project players with HIGH DRAFT PICKS (one with a top 10 pick and the other with a mid 2nd round pick), but atleast Okoye was 19 and still young. Barwin is already 23 and by the time he's ready to contribute as a every down DE he'll probably be near the end of his contract. (unlike Okoye who's already contributing right now in his 3rd year and is only 22..the age of most rookies) My biggest gripe with the pick was why the hell do you spend big bucks in FA for what you believe is your answer at DE, then draft a project in the 2nd round. That 2nd round pick could've been used elsewhere.....we SHOULD have another starter somewhere on the team with that pick. That point can't even be argued. We aren't the Steelers here.....this team DOES have holes and we can't wait years on high picks to come to develop into starters.

Jackie Chiles
10-26-2009, 11:07 PM
Osi Umenyiora had 1 sack in his first season with the Giants playing sparingly alongside Strahan and co. He was a mid 2nd round pick with similar athleticism. Followed that year with 7 sacks and then busted out with 14.5 in year three. Another Giant, Justin Tuck, had 1 total sack his first two combined. Vanden Bosch has also been mentioned already in this thread. He had 4 sacks in his first three seasons before getting 12 in his fourth. Out of these guys Barwin resembles Osi the most imo. Very similar size and athleticism, both quite raw coming out of college. There is absolutely no guarantee he winds up being nearly that good but I have no problem spending a 2nd round pick on him because pass rushers are just worth their weight in gold. With his work ethic and tools I am still very optimistic about his future.

TexCanada
10-26-2009, 11:11 PM
My biggest gripe with the pick was why the hell do you spend big bucks in FA for what you believe is your answer at DE, then draft a project in the 2nd round. That 2nd round pick could've been used elsewhere.....we SHOULD have another starter somewhere on the team with that pick. That point can't even be argued. We aren't the Steelers here.....this team DOES have holes.

I'm not going to argue that I love the Barwin pick, in fact I agree that we should have tried to fix another hole, but aren't you kind of answering your own question here? We drafted a project DE for the future, and signed a FA for the now.

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 11:23 PM
Well, Dale, I had a feeling you'd come back to that well for more water.

Teams make good picks and they make bad picks. Just as the Brees pick, or the Brady pick, or the Terrell Davis pick was a pick that was made very late and was "missed" by lots of teams...there are teams who make a pick several rounds too early, passing on other options for that guy who they think is going to get scooped up early. Connor Barwin is the pick made several rounds too early. Just as Jason Babin was, too.

Nobody has to wait and see what Brian Cushing will do next season.

I think this team screwed the pooch in rounds 2, 3 and 4. With one exception: I have more hope for James Casey than I have for the other three guys we drafted in 2, 3, and 4.

No team is immune from screwing up and reaching. Glover Quin seems to be the only drafted CB since Dunta who might end up sticking. I think he's doing more than 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

But then again, I'm just really not sold on our d-line right now. Our LBs are off-the-chain. Our DBs are still sketchy, except their run support is getting much much better with each game.

Vernon Davis running that same route over the middle is stuck in my head. Alex Smith should not be standing up and throwing that pass with nobody touching him or making him throw off a back foot.

And the reason Mario struggled was because he was on a VERY broken team his rookie season. What's Connor Barwin's excuse? He's playing with Mario, Cushing, 'Meco, and a somewhat better-performing defense than the joke of a defense that Mario inherited.


First of all, Brees was the 33rd pick of the draft. That's 13 or 14 spots ahead of Barwin.

Second, answer the question!!... are these guys (1st and 2nd round picks) bad draft picks since they all struggled and/or didn't start as rookies?:

Drew Brees
Carson Palmer
Troy Polamalu
Mario Williams (he struggled because he didn't know what the heck he was doing)
T. Holt
Albert Haynesworth
A. Rodgers
L. Timmons
Antrel Rolle
Steve Smith (Wr NYG)
Eli Manning
Osi Umenyiora
Deangelo Williams
Phillip Rivers


that's just a quick list off the top of my head of some early round picks that, according to your criteria, are bad picks.

Carr Bombed
10-26-2009, 11:25 PM
I'm not going to argue that I love the Barwin pick, in fact I agree that we should have tried to fix another hole, but aren't you kind of answering your own question here? We drafted a project DE for the future, and signed a FA for the now.

The problem is with this team trying to get over a hump, the coaching staff might not be around to see the final product....if he ever even reaches "final product status".

A 2nd round Offensive lineman, back, or safety could've helped us right off the bat.

TexCanada
10-26-2009, 11:36 PM
The problem is with this team trying to get over a hump, the coaching staff might not be around to see the final product....if he ever even reaches "final product status".

A 2nd round Offensive lineman, back, or safety could've helped us right off the bat.

Thats not a huge problem for me, I really don't care what coaching staff we have as long as we are winning, and I would rather draft a guy with a lot of potential then just a warm body that will fill a hole for now.

swtbound07
10-26-2009, 11:38 PM
the question is, is connor barwin not playing because the coaching staff is developing him, or because he can't beat out the players around him for time?

And if you answer A, when have we ever "developed" a player with any degree of success? If you don't come into houston and light the world on fire, you generally don't succeed. You can say Mario, but plantar fascitis slowed him down, and they didn't try to develop him. They let him play. Same with Okoye. I've seen nothing to believe Barwin is talented enough to warrant playing time.

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 11:39 PM
The problem is with this team trying to get over a hump, the coaching staff might not be around to see the final product....if he ever even reaches "final product status".

A 2nd round Offensive lineman, back, or safety could've helped us right off the bat.

I don't want my organization drafting in the second round with the first priority being : immediate impact or self-preservation. I would hope the organization on draft day has a 3-5 year perspective. High 1st round picks almost have to contribute because of salary cap ramifications. Barwin counts about $1 million per year on the cap. It's very different. 6 games into a rookie season seems just a tad premature to criticize the draft pick of a DE who has "only one sack" and a number of tackles and ST contribution. Maybe I'm crazy!

dalemurphy
10-26-2009, 11:44 PM
the question is, is connor barwin not playing because the coaching staff is developing him, or because he can't beat out the players around him for time?

And if you answer A, when have we ever "developed" a player with any degree of success? If you don't come into houston and light the world on fire, you generally don't succeed. You can say Mario, but plantar fascitis slowed him down, and they didn't try to develop him. They let him play. Same with Okoye. I've seen nothing to believe Barwin is talented enough to warrant playing time.

Well, my guess is if it was 2006, Barwin would be playing more. Unfortunately for him, at least in your eyes, the Texans' have more talent now. Therefore, he sucks? He's getting playing time and practice time. Why can't they be "developing him" and also realize that perhaps Antonio Smith is a better DE on 1st and 10 or 3rd and 1 than Barwin right now?

Carr Bombed
10-26-2009, 11:53 PM
I don't want my organization drafting in the second round with the first priority being : immediate impact or self-preservation. I would hope the organization on draft day has a 3-5 year perspective. High 1st round picks almost have to contribute because of salary cap ramifications. Barwin counts about $1 million per year on the cap. It's very different. 6 games into a rookie season seems just a tad premature to criticize the draft pick of a DE who has "only one sack" and a number of tackles and ST contribution. Maybe I'm crazy!

Well I want my team drafting the most "NFL ready prospect" who can start day 1 in the first couple of rounds... Picks that you have a 3-5 year perspective on should be later rounds (outside of the QB position and Barwin in not a QB).

So basically everybody agrees he isn't close to being a every down starter at DE.....well then why was he a 2nd rounder? That kind of drafting philosophy usually doesn't work out well. Successful teams don't spend top 10 and mid 2nd round picks on projects. They grab NFL STARTERS with those picks if they can.

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 12:01 AM
Well I want my team drafting the most "NFL ready prospect" who can start day 1 in the first couple of rounds... Picks that you have a 3-5 year perspective on should be later rounds (outside of the QB position and Barwin in not a QB).

So basically everybody agrees he isn't close to being a every down starter at DE.....well then why was he a 2nd rounder? That kind of drafting philosophy usually doesn't work out well. Successful teams don't spend top 10 and mid 2nd round picks on prospects. They grab NFL STARTERS with those picks if they can.

Refer to my list! Troy Polamalu was a 2nd round pick who played very little as a rookie. Pittsburgh, as a rule, tends to sit their draft picks for their rookie seasons.

the answer to your question, "if everybody agrees he isn't close to being an every down starter at DE... well then why was he a 2nd rounder?"..

clearly, because the team doesn't with you that the 1st priority in a 2nd round pick is his ability to immediately start.

Can't you'll at least acknowledge that it is a legitimate to have a different philosophy and that it is reasonable to expect a year of development before a 2nd rounder controls a spot in the starting lineup? You don't have to even agree with it... just acknowledge that it's a valid philosophy.

Carr Bombed
10-27-2009, 12:54 AM
Refer to my list! Troy Polamalu was a 2nd round pick who played very little as a rookie. Pittsburgh, as a rule, tends to sit their draft picks for their rookie seasons.

the answer to your question, "if everybody agrees he isn't close to being an every down starter at DE... well then why was he a 2nd rounder?"..

clearly, because the team doesn't with you that the 1st priority in a 2nd round pick is his ability to immediately start.

Can't you'll at least acknowledge that it is a legitimate to have a different philosophy and that it is reasonable to expect a year of development before a 2nd rounder controls a spot in the starting lineup? You don't have to even agree with it... just acknowledge that it's a valid philosophy.


The Troy Polamalu comparison isn't really much of a comparison at all. Troy Polamalu started multiple seasons at safety for USC (and back when USC was every bit of the hype and not overrated by the media like they tend to be from time to time)...He was a HIGHLY sought after S prospect, not looked as a "tweener". The Steelers were in love with him going into that draft, but never expected him to be anywhere close to where they ended up getting him. (You also failed to mention how due to a hamstring injury he wasn't even able to perform at the combine which was one of the reasons why he fell further than where he ended up getting drafted......where would Barwin be without the combine?)

Anways the Chargers didn't draft him and the Steelers felt they had to move up and get him. They pulled off a big trade (that involved Larry Johnson and Brooks Bollinger) and moved 11 spots, up from 27th to draft him 16th ovrl.

The fact that the Steelers could wait a year for him to transition to NFL speed was because they already had a very solid secondary and already had Chris Hope at one of the safety spots. If you remember, I said earlier...we aren't the Steelers, but it doesn't matter, because Troy Polamalu situation isn't comparable to Connor Barwin. Nobody doubted what position Polamalu was going to play..(Polamalu is the only safety Pittsburgh has every drafted in the 1st round)...people didn't even fully know what defense Barwin was going to play in....he was a tweener project.

I think the misconnection here is you expect Barwin to be our everydown DE next year........I don't think that's going to happen, I think the kid is extremely raw and it's going to take ALOT more work, which is why I didn't like the pick at all.

TimeKiller
10-27-2009, 07:17 AM
well sean smith the corner was still available....
An acceptable answer and a guy I wouldn't have minded drafting.

He and VDavis are still not starting correct? I heard they split time, if that's true then neither of the 1st or 2nd round picks of the draft genius Parcells are starting.

Also, Sean Smith has about 15 less tackles and only 4 more passes defended than Glover Quin, our 4th round pick.

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 07:41 AM
The Troy Polamalu comparison isn't really much of a comparison at all. Troy Polamalu started multiple seasons at safety for USC (and back when USC was every bit of the hype and not overrated by the media like they tend to be from time to time)...He was a HIGHLY sought after S prospect, not looked as a "tweener". The Steelers were in love with him going into that draft, but never expected him to be anywhere close to where they ended up getting him. (You also failed to mention how due to a hamstring injury he wasn't even able to perform at the combine which was one of the reasons why he fell further than where he ended up getting drafted......where would Barwin be without the combine?)

Anways the Chargers didn't draft him and the Steelers felt they had to move up and get him. They pulled off a big trade (that involved Larry Johnson and Brooks Bollinger) and moved 11 spots, up from 27th to draft him 16th ovrl.

The fact that the Steelers could wait a year for him to transition to NFL speed was because they already had a very solid secondary and already had Chris Hope at one of the safety spots. If you remember, I said earlier...we aren't the Steelers, but it doesn't matter, because Troy Polamalu situation isn't comparable to Connor Barwin. Nobody doubted what position Polamalu was going to play..(Polamalu is the only safety Pittsburgh has every drafted in the 1st round)...people didn't even fully know what defense Barwin was going to play in....he was a tweener project.

I think the misconnection here is you expect Barwin to be our everydown DE next year........I don't think that's going to happen, I think the kid is extremely raw and it's going to take ALOT more work, which is why I didn't like the pick at all.


You guys keep layering in other factors. Now apparently, it's valid to sit your early round rookie if: he started multiple seasons at safety and if the pre-draft projections had him being drafted higher than he was. Also, apparently, it's better to trade up for a prospect and sit him?

No, the misconnection is that you can't condemn a pick because he doesn't start as a rookie and you and GP continue to defend that position...

If you want to complain about the pick for the same reasons you did in April... fine! but, don't use the fact that he's playing about 1/3 of the defensive snaps through 6 games of his rookie season in order to prove your point.

GP
10-27-2009, 08:19 AM
Refer to my list! Troy Polamalu was a 2nd round pick who played very little as a rookie. Pittsburgh, as a rule, tends to sit their draft picks for their rookie seasons.
the answer to your question, "if everybody agrees he isn't close to being an every down starter at DE... well then why was he a 2nd rounder?"..

clearly, because the team doesn't with you that the 1st priority in a 2nd round pick is his ability to immediately start.

Can't you'll at least acknowledge that it is a legitimate to have a different philosophy and that it is reasonable to expect a year of development before a 2nd rounder controls a spot in the starting lineup? You don't have to even agree with it... just acknowledge that it's a valid philosophy.

That rule doesn't apply here, Dale.

This isn't Pittsburgh. Our team does not have the luxury of sitting 2nd rounders their rookie year. That's making an apples-to-oranges comparison, IMO.

If Pittsburgh had bombed out every season for 4 or 5 years in a row, they wouldn't be sitting 2nd rounders. They'd be playing them. because they most likely would have been in the same situation we were/are in: Needing talent out on the field, fast.

I do dream of the day, however, when we are sitting rookies. That's a luxury that I'd like us to attain.

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 09:10 AM
That rule doesn't apply here, Dale.

This isn't Pittsburgh. Our team does not have the luxury of sitting 2nd rounders their rookie year. That's making an apples-to-oranges comparison, IMO.

If Pittsburgh had bombed out every season for 4 or 5 years in a row, they wouldn't be sitting 2nd rounders. They'd be playing them. because they most likely would have been in the same situation we were/are in: Needing talent out on the field, fast.

I do dream of the day, however, when we are sitting rookies. That's a luxury that I'd like us to attain.


Well, you're living it! We're about to be 5-3 without our 2nd round pick starting. And, we are getting the best DL performance in our 8 year history.

Carr Bombed
10-27-2009, 05:17 PM
You guys keep layering in other factors. Now apparently, it's valid to sit your early round rookie if: he started multiple seasons at safety and if the pre-draft projections had him being drafted higher than he was. Also, apparently, it's better to trade up for a prospect and sit him?

No, the misconnection is that you can't condemn a pick because he doesn't start as a rookie and you and GP continue to defend that position...

If you want to complain about the pick for the same reasons you did in April... fine! but, don't use the fact that he's playing about 1/3 of the defensive snaps through 6 games of his rookie season in order to prove your point.

I'm not comdeming the pick because he doesn't start.........I was against the pick, because he was a project selected in the 2nd round and he probably isn't even going to start next year. I just don't agree with drafting those kind of players in the second round...

and again the only reason why Polamalu sat his rookie year was because the Steelers HAD good safeties already, not because Palumalo was veiwed as a raw player who still needed to learn the ins and outs of the position that he was drafted to play. The Steelers are a team that usually has great depth where they can afford to let players grow into starters. We don't have that kind of depth at multiple positions on this team, which is why many people feel we could've gotten a player who could start on this team right away in the 2nd round.

TimeKiller
10-27-2009, 05:21 PM
We don't have that kind of depth at multiple positions on this team, which is why many people feel we could've gotten a player who could start on this team right away in the 2nd round.

Name the player you feel would be starting and making a big difference like you guys expect! Does he exist?!?

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 05:40 PM
I'm not comdeming the pick because he doesn't start.........I was against the pick, because he was a project selected in the 2nd round and he probably isn't even going to start next year. I just don't agree with drafting those kind of players in the second round...

and again the only reason why Polamalu sat his rookie year was because the Steelers HAD good safeties already, not because Palumalo was veiwed as a raw player who still needed to learn the ins and outs of the position that he was drafted to play. The Steelers are a team that usually has great depth where they can afford to let players grow into starters. We don't have that kind of depth at multiple positions on this team, which is why many people feel we could've gotten a player who could start on this team right away in the 2nd round.

Well, we have Mario Williams playing Barwin's position on run downs. Don't you think Mario is a good DE. ASmith plays LDE on run downs. Don't you think A.Smith is a good strong side DE on run downs?

On passing downs, Barwin usually enters the game. so, again, I'm not getting your point. You're so anxious to be right about the pick that you can't even wait for him to play a season before criticizing him. It seems to me that Kubiak and R. Smith seem to have a pretty good grip on building this team with youth. He's played 6 freakin' games since he was drafted! Give the guy a chance to fail, at least.

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 05:50 PM
Name the player you feel would be starting and making a big difference like you guys expect! Does he exist?!?

some fans are insufferable whiners! This year's 1st, 3rd, 4th rounders are all starting for this organization's best team, and the 2nd and 5th round picks are making weekly contributions.

meanwhile, last year's late first rounder is starting and playing well at LT while the 3rd rounder should have been AFC offensive rookie of the year last year.

then, we've got a 6th rounder from '07 starting at guard, a 3rd rounder from '07 making plays all over the freakin' place, the '07 1st rounder starting to play solid ball at DT and starting... not to mention that we traded 2nd round picks in '07 and '08 to get a young QB who is putting up amazing numbers this year.

And, I didn't even mention the amazing '06 draft or an impressive list of young, cheap FAs collected the past few seasons:

Reeves,
EWilson
Briesel
S. Cody
Bulman
CMyers *6th rd trade
KWalter *7th rd trade
etc..


But, damn those Texans... Connor Barwin isn't starting yet and his rookie season is almost half over!! Man, I wish GP and Car Bomber were making more of the personnel decisions for this organization.

Carr Bombed
10-27-2009, 07:48 PM
Well, we have Mario Williams playing Barwin's position on run downs. Don't you think Mario is a good DE. ASmith plays LDE on run downs. Don't you think A.Smith is a good strong side DE on run downs?

On passing downs, Barwin usually enters the game. so, again, I'm not getting your point. You're so anxious to be right about the pick that you can't even wait for him to play a season before criticizing him. It seems to me that Kubiak and R. Smith seem to have a pretty good grip on building this team with youth. He's played 6 freakin' games since he was drafted! Give the guy a chance to fail, at least.

I think there's a comprehension problem here. I've said MULTIPLE times my biggest problem with Barwin is he's a second round project/tweener who still has a ton of learning and growing to do....I'm not "trying to be right about the pick". I'm trying to get my point across and you keep on trying to compare Barwin to players like Troy Polamalu or Houston to the Steelers. Neither of those situations or teams are remotely comparable.

As far as "He's only played 6 freakin games since he was drafted!....give the guy a chance to fail".

Umm.....who the hell said I wanted this guy to fail or I'm rooting about it? I would love nothing more for this guy to become a great pass rusher, I just don't see that happening anytime soon. The learning curve is too great with him and he's raw as raw can get......which is the whole reason why I didn't like him as a 2nd round pick. He could've used NFL ready/every down starters at other positions.

Carr Bombed
10-27-2009, 07:53 PM
Name the player you feel would be starting and making a big difference like you guys expect! Does he exist?!?

:rolleyes:

I'm not going to scour the entire draft and cherry pick other players taken in that round and then try to project how they would do on our team in our system...that's a waste of time.

It's just a philosophy thing. I don't think a team that has never had a winning season should be spending 2nd round picks on project players when they lack depth at multiple positions. Our team doesn't have the depth or quality starters at multiple positions where we can afford to be spending high picks in the draft on high risk players like that...that is all.

Carr Bombed
10-27-2009, 08:01 PM
some fans are insufferable whiners! I wish GP and Car Bomber were making more of the personnel decisions for this organization.

Give me a freaking break...so this is what you do when other people have a difference of opinion? Yeah, you're right....we should all just bow to the opinion of dalemurphy. Nobody can ever be critical or second guess ANY decision the team makes, because that would just make us "insufferable whiners". :rolleyes: That's cheap.

What's the point of this board anyways...Hook'em needs to shut it down, because people don't agree with every decision made under the sun and that kind of insubordination is untolerated.


Newsflash, people aren't going to agree about everything on this board, we have different opinions....OH NOES!

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 08:04 PM
:rolleyes:

I'm not going to scour the entire draft and cherry pick other players taken in that round and then try to project how they would do on our team in our system...that's a waste of time.

It's just a philosophy thing. I don't think a team that has never had a winning season should be spending 2nd round picks on project players when they lack depth at multiple positions. Our team doesn't have the depth or quality starters at multiple positions where we can afford to be spending high picks in the draft on high risk players like that...that is all.

The fact that he may take awhile to develop into an everydown NFL DE doesn't neccessarily make him higher risk than any other 2nd rounder. I think his motor and athleticism make him a fairly low risk 2nd round pick. He doesn't look any more raw to me than Mario did as a rookie. He just has 30 lbs less muscle.

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 08:09 PM
Give me a freaking break...so this is what you do when other people have a difference of opinion? Yeah, you're right....we should all just bow to the opinion of dalemurphy. Nobody can ever be critical or second guess ANY decision the team makes, because that would just make us "insufferable whiners". :rolleyes: That's cheap.

What's the point of this board anyways...Hook'em needs to shut it down, because people don't agree with every decision made under the sun and that kind of insubordination is untolerated.


Newsflash, people aren't going to agree about everything on this board, we have different opinions....OH NOES!


As I've said multiple times, go ahead and disagree. You are the one that won't acknowledge another perspective (the Texans, in this case) is valid. I've said a number of times that perhaps Barwin will end up a poor pick. You, however, have refused to back off your silly assertion that the fact that he isn't starting is evidence that he was a bad pick. Even though I have given endless examples of teams who draft players in the early rounds that sit or need time to develop, you won't acknowledge that it is a reasonable way to handle Barwin... Of course, he could start. But, they like the rotation better. And, by the way, it's working. I'm simply arguing that the pick can't be fairly judged for at least another year.

Carr Bombed
10-27-2009, 08:17 PM
As I've said multiple times, go ahead and disagree. You are the one that won't acknowledge another perspective (the Texans, in this case) is valid. I've said a number of times that perhaps Barwin will end up a poor pick. You, however, have refused to back off your silly assertion that the fact that he isn't starting is evidence that he was a bad pick. Even though I have given endless examples of teams who draft players in the early rounds that sit or need time to develop, you won't acknowledge that it is a reasonable way to handle Barwin... Of course, he could start. But, they like the rotation better. And, by the way, it's working. I'm simply arguing that the pick can't be fairly judged for at least another year.

LMAO...you're the one who isn't accepting other people's opinions here or willing to listen to another perspective. You say you do, but then you make posts like the one above. Every time someone has made a post in this thread that doesn't agree with yours, you either bring up some player/team that isn't remotely comparable to the Barwin situation or you just made some smart ass comment.

Also I never said Barwin was going to be a bust or said he was going to fail, he could very well turn out to be a good player in this league EVENTUALLY, but that's not the issue here. That was never my issue with the pick. This team has never had a winning season..(Newsflash, we're not the Steelers)...I simply would've liked the team to try to acquire some talent to help us sooner. As I don't think Barwin is going to see a much more increased role next year. It could be 3 years before he's finally ready to be a solid every down player in this league.....shoot me if I believe you shouldn't be spending second round picks on players like that when you have other immediate positions to fill.

GP
10-27-2009, 09:07 PM
Give me a freaking break...so this is what you do when other people have a difference of opinion? Yeah, you're right....we should all just bow to the opinion of dalemurphy. Nobody can ever be critical or second guess ANY decision the team makes, because that would just make us "insufferable whiners". :rolleyes: That's cheap.

What's the point of this board anyways...Hook'em needs to shut it down, because people don't agree with every decision made under the sun and that kind of insubordination is untolerated.


Newsflash, people aren't going to agree about everything on this board, we have different opinions....OH NOES!

He has a short memory, too, at least when it comes to how he treats posters. I am a little shocked at how animated he's become over this, and the personal attacks he's throwing down on us.

I've had lots of good conversations with Dale in the past. I've replied favorably to lots of his posts. I like to read his posts.

Of course, I go and disagree with him on this issue and....well, he thinks all manner of things about me now.

Dale, chill out. It's freaking Connor Barwin for crying out loud. LOL.

ReliantTexan
10-27-2009, 09:42 PM
To be honest, I'm not sure what other second rounder we could have taken who would come in and actually fill a position of need. If we had drafted saftey help or even another guard etc, would they be doing any better than the players we have there now? I doubt it.

steelbtexan
10-27-2009, 09:51 PM
some fans are insufferable whiners! This year's 1st, 3rd, 4th rounders are all starting for this organization's best team, and the 2nd and 5th round picks are making weekly contributions.

meanwhile, last year's late first rounder is starting and playing well at LT while the 3rd rounder should have been AFC offensive rookie of the year last year.

then, we've got a 6th rounder from '07 starting at guard, a 3rd rounder from '07 making plays all over the freakin' place, the '07 1st rounder starting to play solid ball at DT and starting... not to mention that we traded 2nd round picks in '07 and '08 to get a young QB who is putting up amazing numbers this year.

And, I didn't even mention the amazing '06 draft or an impressive list of young, cheap FAs collected the past few seasons:

Reeves,
EWilson
Briesel
S. Cody
Bulman
CMyers *6th rd trade
KWalter *7th rd trade
etc..


But, damn those Texans... Connor Barwin isn't starting yet and his rookie season is almost half over!! Man, I wish GP and Car Bomber were making more of the personnel decisions for this organization.

It looks like the FO has done a good job aquiring talent.

CB I get what you're saying. I'm impatient too but I think with a year and an offseason under his belt you will be glad they took Barwin. He has only plaed defense for 2 years. He has got the ability and work ethic to be great.

I had Barwin down for 8 sacks this year but with Mario hurt I believe he will get 5 sacks. Remember the Rams,Seahwks and Bills are coming uon the schedule.

I am calling my shot now. Barwin will get 1-2 sacks this Sunday against the Bills.

steelbtexan
10-27-2009, 09:53 PM
By the way for all of the William Moore bandwagoners out there

He was put on IR this week.

NitroGSXR
10-27-2009, 10:18 PM
I noticed Connor Barwin dropping back into coverage quite a bit during the 49er game. At one point he was so deep that he was further behind both Wilson and Pollard, 30 yards or so from the line of scrimmage. It confused me a bit. Once okay but several times and now I'm a bit perplexed at how exactly are they using him?

Anyone else notice that or am I imagining it?

steelbtexan
10-27-2009, 10:48 PM
I noticed Connor Barwin dropping back into coverage quite a bit during the 49er game. At one point he was so deep that he was further behind both Wilson and Pollard, 30 yards or so from the line of scrimmage. It confused me a bit. Once okay but several times and now I'm a bit perplexed at how exactly are they using him?

Anyone else notice that or am I imagining it?

They're using him like they used Weaver last year. The difference is that Barwin runs a 4.5 40 and can drop into coverage alot deeper than Weaver who probably runs a 5.0 on a good day.

Barwins atheletisim allows allows him to drop into coverage and Cushing to blitz off the edge. This is a good thing. I noticed them dropping Barwin into coverage against Cincy some too.

Isn't it great that the atheletes Smithiak drafted this year gives the defense versatility that they haven't had since their inception?

NitroGSXR
10-27-2009, 10:51 PM
They're using him like they used Weaver last year. The difference is that Barwin runs a 4.5 40 and can drop into coverage alot deeper than Weaver who probably runs a 5.0 on a good day.

Barwins atheletisim allows allows him to drop into coverage and Cushing to blitz off the edge. This is a good thing. I noticed them dropping Barwin into coverage against Cincy some too.

Isn't it great that the atheletes Smithiak drafted this year gives the defense versatility that they haven't had since their inception?

See... this is where I start to get confused. Are we using him as a pass rusher or not? I thought that Barwin was to be our situational pass rusher on primarily third downs. Now I'm seeing him on deep coverages. I can understand a DE playing LB coverage duties but way back deep? That's a new one for me.

dalemurphy
10-27-2009, 10:58 PM
See... this is where I start to get confused. Are we using him as a pass rusher or not? I thought that Barwin was to be our situational pass rusher on primarily third downs. Now I'm seeing him on deep coverages. I can understand a DE playing LB coverage duties but way back deep? That's a new one for me.

It's called zone blitzing. The concept is that a DE takes the attention of the tackle, pre-snap. Then, at the snap, the DE backs off into coverage and the LB blitzing. Hopefully, the LB is untouched because the tackle is expecting to lockup the DE... meanwhile, the DE fills the passing lane left occupied by the LB. In theory and often in practice, these plays lead to a lot of sacks and interceptions.

For instance, the JHarrison 100TD int. return in the Superbowl was essentially this same concept. Although, in a 3-4 defense, Harrison is considered a LB. But, in reality, the same thing happened. The tackle was focused on blocking Harrison and Warner was expecting Harrison to rush... Warner got pressure from the blitzer and Harrison stepped in the passing lane (to Warner's surprise. He assumed he'd already be in the offensive backfield trying to sack him) and picked the ball off.

steelbtexan
10-27-2009, 10:59 PM
See... this is where I start to get confused. Are we using him as a pass rusher or not? I thought that Barwin was to be our situational pass rusher on primarily third downs. Now I'm seeing him on deep coverages. I can understand a DE playing LB coverage duties but way back deep? That's a new one for me.

They are almost always rushing 4-5 guys.

If Barwin drops into coverage you can bet Cushing and/or Pollard will be blitzing.

They only play this defense 4-5 times a game at the most.

NitroGSXR
10-27-2009, 11:00 PM
They are almost always rushing 4-5 guys.

If Barwin drops into coverage you can bet Cushing and/or Pollard will be blitzing.

They only play this defense 4-5 times a game at the most.

But we got Barwin to do the blitzing. See? That's my issue.

NitroGSXR
10-27-2009, 11:03 PM
It's called zone blitzing. The concept is that a DE takes the attention of the tackle, pre-snap. Then, at the snap, the DE backs off into coverage and the LB blitzing. Hopefully, the LB is untouched because the tackle is expecting to lockup the DE... meanwhile, the DE fills the passing lane left occupied by the LB. In theory and often in practice, these plays lead to a lot of sacks and interceptions.

For instance, the JHarrison 100TD int. return in the Superbowl was essentially this same concept. Although, in a 3-4 defense, Harrison is considered a LB. But, in reality, the same thing happened. The tackle was focused on blocking Harrison and Warner was expecting Harrison to rush... Warner got pressure from the blitzer and Harrison stepped in the passing lane (to Warner's surprise. He assumed he'd already be in the offensive backfield trying to sack him) and picked the ball off.
Sounds a little complex but I can understand it. I kinda wish we'd blitz with Barwin a little more. I didn't like seeing him line up at LB and drop back into a safety coverage mode.

was385
10-27-2009, 11:05 PM
This is a pretty ridiculous thread. When the Texans drafted Barwin, we all knew he was a project. The whole idea is that with Smith, he doesn't need to be an every down guy. He can learn the position while still contributing with his athleticism on passing downs and after a couple years in the league, be an every down guy.

noxiousdog
10-27-2009, 11:11 PM
But we got Barwin to do the blitzing. See? That's my issue.

No, we got Barwin to put pressure on the quarterback on obvious passing downs. If that pressure comes directly from Barwin or from scheming is irrelevant.

was385
10-27-2009, 11:18 PM
No, we got Barwin to put pressure on the quarterback on obvious passing downs. If that pressure comes directly from Barwin or from scheming is irrelevant.

This is the difference between our old crappy defense and where we're headed. It's not about just sending four D-Linemen and hoping they can put pressure on the QB, it's about changing up defensive looks, disguising your blitzes, and generally confusing the offense so you're not predictable.

Barwin can bring pressure, but the threat of him bringing pressure is also useful.

steelbtexan
10-27-2009, 11:24 PM
Even though Barwin only has one sack he has made his presence felt in the pass rush mode . He has batted down a number of passes as well.

He has performed slightly below my expectations so far. Part of this has to do with Mario being injured.

Barwin will improve as the year goes on. IMO

steelbtexan
10-27-2009, 11:27 PM
This is the difference between our old crappy defense and where we're headed. It's not about just sending four D-Linemen and hoping they can put pressure on the QB, it's about changing up defensive looks, disguising your blitzes, and generally confusing the offense so you're not predictable.

Barwin can bring pressure, but the threat of him bringing pressure is also useful.

Spot On

I'm looking for to seeing this defense as it matures.

GP
10-28-2009, 09:20 AM
To be honest, I'm not sure what other second rounder we could have taken who would come in and actually fill a position of need. If we had drafted saftey help or even another guard etc, would they be doing any better than the players we have there now? I doubt it.

Two running backs were available: Green(e) from Iowa and Glen Coffee.

I think there was a DB or safety also available, IIRC, that I would have liked to give a whirl had I been making the pick for us.

So, about 4 players we could have taken instead of Barwin. Before people say that those two RBs are not exactly ripping it up in the NFL right now, I'd like to say that they are both good caliber RBs--And our running back situation is sketchy with the fluctuating productivity that Slaton is giving us. Having an extra, GOOD quality running back is not a bad thing.

I see why the pick was made, though: We need to pressure the QB with a d-lineman, and do it better-faster-stronger. I see the "faster" in Barwin, not so sure I see the better and the stronger in him.

In a 3-4 scheme, I think this guy would thrive.

TimeKiller
10-28-2009, 10:17 AM
:rolleyes:

I'm not going to scour the entire draft and cherry pick other players taken in that round and then try to project how they would do on our team in our system...that's a waste of time.
It's not a waste of time and you can take your emoticon and shove it.

I didn't ask you to scour the entire draft, just the 2nd round AFTER Barwin was taken. If Barwin was a bad pick to you then who wouldn't have been? An astoundingly simple question, if it's too much for you then please duck it again.

It's just a philosophy thing. I don't think a team that has never had a winning season should be spending 2nd round picks on project players when they lack depth at multiple positions. Our team doesn't have the depth or quality starters at multiple positions where we can afford to be spending high picks in the draft on high risk players like that...that is all.
The only thing high risk about CB is his lack of experience at the position.

Philosophize with me here, before the draft at DE our depth goes as such: Mario Williams
Tim Bulman
? Cochran released, McClover IR ?

Right? I like Tim Bulman but he's not a 1st string DE. Even after signing ASmith Bulman is the only backup worth a damn. When you plan to rely on the DL as much as this defense does going to war with 3 DEs is a big no-no. Point being DE wasn't loaded with talent like it is now. I know DE wasn't the most pressing need but turning a blind eye to the draft situation so that you can try (fail) to prove a point is bad message boarding.

And it's especially not a waste of time because with how you've criticized Barwin not having a better option *or at least AN OPTION* to discuss otherwise just means you are complaining to complain.


GP- He is used like a 3/4 guy a lot. Stand up rushing, occasionally drops in coverage, primarily a rusher. Pay extra attention to how they line up next time you see him in.

Carr Bombed
10-28-2009, 04:10 PM
It's not a waste of time and you can take your emoticon and shove it.

I didn't ask you to scour the entire draft, just the 2nd round AFTER Barwin was taken. If Barwin was a bad pick to you then who wouldn't have been? An astoundingly simple question, if it's too much for you then please duck it again.

Yeah, it IS a waste of time...

I'm not going to go back to last years draft and try to project on how "player x" would be doing in this system......based on what he's doing in his system this year.

I'll list positions instead, RB and Olineman.....before the Barwin pick, I wanted a RB (I was high on Greene) or a Olineman. Either one could be the difference between a 4-3 season and a possible 5-3 or even 6-1 season.

BTW, I don't "duck questions" here either. I just don't like hindsight crap.

GP
10-28-2009, 04:37 PM
GP- He is used like a 3/4 guy a lot. Stand up rushing, occasionally drops in coverage, primarily a rusher. Pay extra attention to how they line up next time you see him in.

No, I'm talking about him being in a strictly 3-4 system. As an every-down linebacker.

I am fully aware that we sometimes throw out a different "base" look from time-to-time.

I'm not THAT dense. Dadgum....:headhurts:

dalemurphy
10-28-2009, 04:52 PM
No, I'm talking about him being in a strictly 3-4 system. As an every-down linebacker.

I am fully aware that we sometimes throw out a different "base" look from time-to-time.

I'm not THAT dense. Dadgum....:headhurts:

His size isn't an issue to be successful as a 4-3 DE. He's going to be playing around 260 lbs and has a good frame. Heck, Indy has two DEs that weigh under 250 lbs. The issue is that if/when Barwin becomes an every down player, Mario will have to play the strong side more often... Frankly, I think that's his best position anyway.. But, even then, they can play all sorts of games with alignment on passing downs. I think Barwin's sack at Cincy came off the edge of the RT.

TimeKiller
10-28-2009, 04:56 PM
Yeah, it IS a waste of time...

I'm not going to go back to last years draft and try to project on how "player x" would be doing in this system......based on what he's doing in his system this year.

I'll list positions instead, RB and Olineman.....before the Barwin pick, I wanted a RB (I was high on Greene) or a Olineman. Either one could be the difference between a 4-3 season and a possible 5-3 or even 6-1 season.

BTW, I don't "duck questions" here either. I just don't like hindsight crap.

Only waste of time I see is criticizing without a single thought for some type of correction.

Shonn Greene would've been nice. He's playing backup btw. Coffee, also would've been and only started in the wake of Gore's injury. Back to backup role.

Levitre, Unger, Loadholt (We have a RT anyway) have all been starting every game. I was pretty high on Unger but the difference between them and Caldwell is pretty thin IMO. AP makes Loadholt look like a genius for being a huge guy. Any of those guys would've been fine picks.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/draft-2009/04/26/steals.reaches/index.html

Guess who is listed as a steal? That's right: Connor Barwin.

Carr Bombed
10-28-2009, 05:09 PM
Only waste of time I see is criticizing without a single thought for some type of correction.

Shonn Greene would've been nice. He's playing backup btw. Coffee, also would've been and only started in the wake of Gore's injury. Back to backup role.

Levitre, Unger, Loadholt (We have a RT anyway) have all been starting every game. I was pretty high on Unger but the difference between them and Caldwell is pretty thin IMO. AP makes Loadholt look like a genius for being a huge guy. Any of those guys would've been fine picks.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/draft-2009/04/26/steals.reaches/index.html

Guess who is listed as a steal? That's right: Connor Barwin.

What's your problem...

I don't have to "insert" player A instead of player B to be able to criticize the decision of selecting a project player in the second round. Barwin or no Barwin......I'm just against selecting a project player in the second round, what's so hard to understand about that? I don't see why so many people are having such a difficult time understanding that I just don't like picking up project players on the first day of the draft. We don't even have to get into who's available.....I can guarantee you there were a ton of non-project players with very high ceilings in the second round. There's already enough risk involved with the draft without the team adding more risk selecting project players/tweeners on the first day of the draft.

BTW Greene is a backup, because he plays with Thomas Jones and same with Coffee and Gore. Also teams need multiple backs and many run multiple back systems (which is why the Jets had NO PROBLEM spending a second round pick on a "backup" RB...) so it doesn't really matter if they would've been a backup here. They would still be contributing, but that is is seperate issue, because I've said before I don't think any good back could be highly productive behind this Oline, which is why if I had to make the pick I would've chose to upgrade the line.

P.S.

I don't base my opinions off of what articles say....I think we all learned about that after 2006.

BTW, one of their "reaches" Derek Cox has been one of the better rookie corners in the draft......so...

GP
10-28-2009, 05:32 PM
Are we there yet?

http://cottages4you.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/bored-girl-in-carl.jpg

dalemurphy
10-28-2009, 06:03 PM
What's your problem...

I don't have to "insert" player A instead of player B to be able to criticize the decision of selecting a project player in the second round. Barwin or no Barwin......I'm just against selecting a project player in the second round, what's so hard to understand about that? I don't see why so many people are having such a difficult time understanding that I just don't like picking up project players on the first day of the draft. We don't even have to get into who's available.....I can guarantee you there were a ton of non-project players with very high ceilings in the second round. There's already enough risk involved with the draft without the team adding more risk selecting project players/tweeners on the first day of the draft.

BTW Greene is a backup, because he plays with Thomas Jones and same with Coffee and Gore. Also teams need multiple backs and many run multiple back systems (which is why the Jets had NO PROBLEM spending a second round pick on a "backup" RB...) so it doesn't really matter if they would've been a backup here. They would still be contributing, but that is is seperate issue, because I've said before I don't think any good back could be highly productive behind this Oline, which is why if I had to make the pick I would've chose to upgrade the line.

P.S.

I don't base my opinions off of what articles say....I think we all learned about that after 2006.

BTW, one of their "reaches" Derek Cox has been one of the better rookie corners in the draft......so...


Actually you make a good point... I will go back and do some cherry-picking on Carr Bombed's behalf:

1st round: Brian Cushing (immediate impact, probowl level LB)
2nd round: a hall of fame caliber interior lineman- not sure who, but that's the organization's problem
3rd round: a hall of fame caliber RB- again, I don't know who, but not my problem
4th round: a Champ Bailey'esque CB... Sure Quin is starting and playing well, but I like elite players in the 4th round
4th round: Haynesworth-like DT... I have no idea why the Texans decided not to do that and went TE instead?
5th round: James Casey- Carr Bombed is okay with this one but I'd like to see a more productive 5th rounder.
6th round: We could've used a safety in the mold of Ed Reed here but they went with an undersized CB.. uggh!
7th round: How about the next Tom Brady here? they take a safety instead. Sometimes I have to question the organization's desire to win!

Big Lou
10-28-2009, 06:29 PM
This is a pretty ridiculous thread. When the Texans drafted Barwin, we all knew he was a project. The whole idea is that with Smith, he doesn't need to be an every down guy. He can learn the position while still contributing with his athleticism on passing downs and after a couple years in the league, be an every down guy.

Why are people so quick to ***** about threads when inserting thier own slant and ignoring the simple question?!?!? If it weren't for threads like these, we'd all be sitting at our computers saying "hey'd you see that catch, you know the one when the QB threw it and the reciever caught it?"

I don't recall ever putting any kind of assertion that this was a good or bad pick, other than the fact that a first day pick was used, but I digress.....

vanknights2002
10-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Looks good when he speed rushes nut expect him to get better the more time he gets. Remember this is is second year playing DE. Some of you guys were saying he would go in the first.Second he is a reach but the upside is there.

Carr Bombed
10-28-2009, 07:44 PM
Actually you make a good point... I will go back and do some cherry-picking on Carr Bombed's behalf:

1st round: Brian Cushing (immediate impact, probowl level LB)
2nd round: a hall of fame caliber interior lineman- not sure who, but that's the organization's problem
3rd round: a hall of fame caliber RB- again, I don't know who, but not my problem
4th round: a Champ Bailey'esque CB... Sure Quin is starting and playing well, but I like elite players in the 4th round
4th round: Haynesworth-like DT... I have no idea why the Texans decided not to do that and went TE instead?
5th round: James Casey- Carr Bombed is okay with this one but I'd like to see a more productive 5th rounder.
6th round: We could've used a safety in the mold of Ed Reed here but they went with an undersized CB.. uggh!
7th round: How about the next Tom Brady here? they take a safety instead. Sometimes I have to question the organization's desire to win!

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anyting like that. Seriously if all you are going to do is pop off with sophomoric posts then there's no point in even continuing this debate.. Seriously you sound like a upset child who had his daddy insulted. Shit, all I did was question the decision to draft a project player in the second round... LOL, but yeah I forgot..."YOU'RE" the one who's open to other people's opinions :rolleyes: What a joke.

Hey how about I make a post like dalemurphy...

HOW DARE ANYBODY QUESTION THE ALMIGHTY FO....Whatever they say is right and even if later on it's wrong......IT'S STILL RIGHT.. It's not even open for debate. If Rick Smith says so, it is law!!! and if you don't obey the law, you are just a bunch of insufferable whiners!!!

All hail Rick Smith!!!



^^^ See how that works....now where does that kind of crap get us in this discussion?

dalemurphy
10-28-2009, 08:17 PM
What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anyting like that. Seriously if all you are going to do is pop off with sophomoric posts then there's no point in even continuing this debate.. Seriously you sound like a upset child who had his daddy insulted. Shit, all I did was question the decision to draft a project player in the second round... LOL, but yeah I forgot..."YOU'RE" the one who's open to other people's opinions :rolleyes: What a joke.

Hey how about I make a post like dalemurphy...

HOW DARE ANYBODY QUESTION THE ALMIGHTY FO....Whatever they say is right and even if later on it's wrong......IT'S STILL RIGHT.. It's not even open for debate. If Rick Smith says so, it is law!!! and if you don't obey the law, you are just a bunch of insufferable whiners!!!

All hail Rick Smith!!!



^^^ See how that works....now where does that kind of crap get us in this discussion?

I don't know where it gets us. I thought mine was funnier though.

Carr Bombed
10-28-2009, 08:18 PM
I don't know where it gets us. I thought mine was funnier though.

Look we're just going to have to agree to disagree.....I don't have the energy to continue on with this thread (My rockets game is about to tip off) and I really don't want to get into a mud slinging contest over a difference of opinion, when in the end we're all shooting for the same goal. We're all Texan fans here.

TimeKiller
10-29-2009, 08:03 AM
I don't have to "insert" player A instead of player B to be able to criticize the decision of selecting a project player in the second round. Barwin or no Barwin......I'm just against selecting a project player in the second round, what's so hard to understand about that?
So your hangup is the word "project"?


BTW Greene is a backup, because he plays with Thomas Jones and same with Coffee and Gore. Also teams need multiple backs and many run multiple back systems (which is why the Jets had NO PROBLEM spending a second round pick on a "backup" RB...) so it doesn't really matter if they would've been a backup here. They would still be contributing, but that is is seperate issue, because I've said before I don't think any good back could be highly productive behind this Oline, which is why if I had to make the pick I would've chose to upgrade the line.
So it's okay for Greene and Coffee to be backups but not Barwin because the word "project" was invoked? Gotcha.

Besides, we all know no C or G would've been picked to replace the best C to ever play the game.

P.S.
What the alphabet would look like without Q and R?

GP
01-05-2010, 11:01 AM
Bump.

Let the conversation resume.

We've got all off-season.

:popcorn:

spurstexanstros
01-05-2010, 12:23 PM
During the draft talk I was venting my frustration about drafting yet another DE I predicted something that came true. I said that the Texans should have drafted a rb with their second round pick. The last thing the Texans needed was yet another DE especially after signing a high priced DE in Antonio . My prediction was that the Texans should prepare for the event that Steve Slaton had a sophomore slump or got injured the Texans would need help at the running game. I said that drafting a DE and not a running back with the second round pick would cost the team the playoffs.

Sure enough...my fears came to life. Steve Slaton had a sophomore slump with turnovers and teams game planning for him. What made it worse was that any backup they had for him failed just as miserably. The Texans lost games because they could not get one yard for a TD (3 games). I advocated drafting Shonn Greene or Glenn Coffee ( both were available when we reached on Barwin)

As I watched the game on Sunday night and saw Shonn Green pound the Bengals defense ( a decent one) costing the Texans a shot at the playoffs, another question popped in my mind that I asked the "Barwinistas" When this decision to draft a DE with this pick cost us games and the playoffs are you still gonna be glad we drafted Connor Barwin?

Well Barwinistas? are you?

( I dubbed supporters of that pick Barwinistas because they ripped those opposed to it viscously and criticized our football knowledge. however there were a few that disagreed; SWT and myself...and some others I cant think of at the moment)

infantrycak
01-05-2010, 12:47 PM
The Texans lost games because they could not get one yard for a TD (3 games). I advocated drafting Shonn Greene or Glenn Coffee ( both were available when we reached on Barwin)

Glenn Coffee has done jack. There is no way you can say having him would have changed anything this year. Shonn Greene on the same number of carries has run better than Moats (and .2 ypc better than Foster) but also has 3 fumbles to his credit. Greene and Foster are the same size. Maybe Greene would have made a difference, maybe.

El Tejano
01-05-2010, 12:53 PM
I honestly feel that during that stretch that you stated about not being able to get one yard, no RB would've been able to. Foster's recent success is from a group that finally had a season behind them.

In no way can you compare the Jets line to ours because theirs will win 9 times out of ten. Coffee - I was pro Coffee all day on this board but he hasn't really made a difference over there in San Fran.

Goldensilence
01-05-2010, 12:58 PM
Ok well Marcus time to collect.

As per NFL.com Final stats for Barwin

18 tackles, 12 Solo and 6 assists, 3.5 sacks (though some argue it should be 1 more), 4 passes defensed, and one fumble recovery.


Someone will throw out that "well he leads all rookies that play part time!" Awesome.

My problem isn't necessarily Conor Barwin's production, which I guess conditions considered isn't bad. My problem is drafting a pass rushing specialist in the second round after signing a DE to a big contract. This team had holes that were bigger then this. IMO I think we could've gotten the same production from Nading, Bulman, and Jamison.

For kicks I went and looked at Bulman's stats from last year.

18 tackles, 11 Solo and 7 Assists, 4 Sacks, and no passes defensed.

I guess we gained 4 passes defensed for a second rounder.


Meanwhile we could've used to pick to plug serious holes on the interior of the OL with Max Unger or Andy Levitre. Who started for Seattle and Buffalo respectively.

As SpursTexansAstrons pointed out, as well as I have before, Shonn Greene would've looked nice in a Texans uni as well as LeSean McCoy. I guess for fair sake had Foster been inserted well before the last few games we would've gotten a similar boost, I think though with second rounder in tow Kubiak's hand would've been forced much sooner.

Though many people before the draft stated that they wouldn't touch William Moore with a 10 foot pole he would've been a much more welcome addition then watching Busing chase people.

It's not unrealistic expectations that I set that Barwin couldn't meet, really after taking him I thought well any production at this point would be a bonus considering the pick is wasted. When you're a team pushing for the playoffs with a few glaring needs you can't afford to take project players early.

Do I hope he develops into an unstoppable force? Sure, yes as a Texans fan I want all my draft picks to succeed wildly because we depend on them to. I just don't see him breaking out like say Elvis Dumerville anytime soon.

Jackie Chiles
01-05-2010, 12:59 PM
During the draft talk I was venting my frustration about drafting yet another DE I predicted something that came true. I said that the Texans should have drafted a rb with their second round pick. The last thing the Texans needed was yet another DE especially after signing a high priced DE in Antonio . My prediction was that the Texans should prepare for the event that Steve Slaton had a sophomore slump or got injured the Texans would need help at the running game. I said that drafting a DE and not a running back with the second round pick would cost the team the playoffs.

Sure enough...my fears came to life. Steve Slaton had a sophomore slump with turnovers and teams game planning for him. What made it worse was that any backup they had for him failed just as miserably. The Texans lost games because they could not get one yard for a TD (3 games). I advocated drafting Shonn Greene or Glenn Coffee ( both were available when we reached on Barwin)

As I watched the game on Sunday night and saw Shonn Green pound the Bengals defense ( a decent one) costing the Texans a shot at the playoffs, another question popped in my mind that I asked the "Barwinistas" When this decision to draft a DE with this pick cost us games and the playoffs are you still gonna be glad we drafted Connor Barwin?

Well Barwinistas? are you?

( I dubbed supporters of that pick Barwinistas because they ripped those opposed to it viscously and criticized our football knowledge. however there were a few that disagreed; SWT and myself...and some others I cant think of at the moment)

When its all said and done Barwin is going to have a better career than either of those RBs, I believed it when we drafted him, I believe it now. If you are going to play the what if card, what if Barwin has 8-10 sacks next year? I think he is going to make a quantum leap next season.

dc_txtech
01-05-2010, 01:57 PM
If you are going to play the what if card, what if Barwin has 8-10 sacks next year? I think he is going to make a quantum leap next season.

Exactly, it will be 2-3 more years before we know what the right decision was.

RagingBull
01-05-2010, 02:00 PM
I wanted them to take Max Unger. Would have made a bigger difference this year than Barwin I think.

stingray
01-05-2010, 02:14 PM
During the draft talk I was venting my frustration about drafting yet another DE I predicted something that came true. I said that the Texans should have drafted a rb with their second round pick. The last thing the Texans needed was yet another DE especially after signing a high priced DE in Antonio . My prediction was that the Texans should prepare for the event that Steve Slaton had a sophomore slump or got injured the Texans would need help at the running game. I said that drafting a DE and not a running back with the second round pick would cost the team the playoffs.

Sure enough...my fears came to life. Steve Slaton had a sophomore slump with turnovers and teams game planning for him. What made it worse was that any backup they had for him failed just as miserably. The Texans lost games because they could not get one yard for a TD (3 games). I advocated drafting Shonn Greene or Glenn Coffee ( both were available when we reached on Barwin)

As I watched the game on Sunday night and saw Shonn Green pound the Bengals defense ( a decent one) costing the Texans a shot at the playoffs, another question popped in my mind that I asked the "Barwinistas" When this decision to draft a DE with this pick cost us games and the playoffs are you still gonna be glad we drafted Connor Barwin?

Well Barwinistas? are you?

( I dubbed supporters of that pick Barwinistas because they ripped those opposed to it viscously and criticized our football knowledge. however there were a few that disagreed; SWT and myself...and some others I cant think of at the moment)

I thought you of all people, with your screen name, would understand how sometimes you have to develop a player. Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are two great examples. Different sport but good example. Those two were taken late and were given time to develop. Look how they turned out. I'm not saying that Connor will be great but he has the tools. It's an investment.

And yeah, maybe Shonn Green could have put us over the top and in the playoffs but I rather take a chance on Barwin for this team to potentially be great later rather than just decent now..

A decent running back can be had pretty much any round. We now have Foster and Slaton. Maybe a late round big back to compliment and we are good.

spurstexanstros
01-05-2010, 04:55 PM
I wanted them to take Max Unger. Would have made a bigger difference this year than Barwin I think.
I said that then to...especially when in the third they took a center...my response was if you needed a center then why not take the best one in second round?
I thought you of all people, with your screen name, would understand how sometimes you have to develop a player. Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are two great examples. Different sport but good example. Those two were taken late and were given time to develop. Look how they turned out. I'm not saying that Connor will be great but he has the tools. It's an investment.

And yeah, maybe Shonn Green could have put us over the top and in the playoffs but I rather take a chance on Barwin for this team to potentially be great later rather than just decent now..

A decent running back can be had pretty much any round. We now have Foster and Slaton. Maybe a late round big back to compliment and we are good.

Comparing Tony and Manu to Barwin is totally different.
Tony was an immediate impact player but needed to be polished and has grown from a rookie. Barwin was in no way an impact player for the Texans. He had his moments but the game did not come down to his performance.

Manu on the other hand was a revolution unto himself..he changed the way the NBA looked at foreeign players and in fact I believe Manu is the best foreign player ever.(now not so much) Barwin is not the best DE ever and he didnt make plays his rookie year that led to playoff wins..so no on that as well.

As for a decent rb can be found in any round...then why didnt we find one last year? That was a lame excuse in the draft and so was the line..we will find one in FA...we didnt. And I cant believe anyone on here is wiling to mortgage our running game on Foster and Slaton...if so we would be making the same mistake.

Marcus
01-05-2010, 04:59 PM
Ok well Marcus time to collect.

As per NFL.com Final stats for Barwin

18 tackles, 12 Solo and 6 assists, 3.5 sacks (though some argue it should be 1 more), 4 passes defensed, and one fumble recovery.


Someone will throw out that "well he leads all rookies that play part time!" Awesome.

My problem isn't necessarily Conor Barwin's production, which I guess conditions considered isn't bad. My problem is drafting a pass rushing specialist in the second round after signing a DE to a big contract. This team had holes that were bigger then this. IMO I think we could've gotten the same production from Nading, Bulman, and Jamison.

For kicks I went and looked at Bulman's stats from last year.

18 tackles, 11 Solo and 7 Assists, 4 Sacks, and no passes defensed.

I guess we gained 4 passes defensed for a second rounder.


Meanwhile we could've used to pick to plug serious holes on the interior of the OL with Max Unger or Andy Levitre. Who started for Seattle and Buffalo respectively.

As SpursTexansAstrons pointed out, as well as I have before, Shonn Greene would've looked nice in a Texans uni as well as LeSean McCoy. I guess for fair sake had Foster been inserted well before the last few games we would've gotten a similar boost, I think though with second rounder in tow Kubiak's hand would've been forced much sooner.

Though many people before the draft stated that they wouldn't touch William Moore with a 10 foot pole he would've been a much more welcome addition then watching Busing chase people.

It's not unrealistic expectations that I set that Barwin couldn't meet, really after taking him I thought well any production at this point would be a bonus considering the pick is wasted. When you're a team pushing for the playoffs with a few glaring needs you can't afford to take project players early.

Do I hope he develops into an unstoppable force? Sure, yes as a Texans fan I want all my draft picks to succeed wildly because we depend on them to. I just don't see him breaking out like say Elvis Dumerville anytime soon.

Well, if you want to collect, collect. Your post reeks of to much 20/20 hindsight. And there way too many on here besides you that didn't like a certain pick, and then when the season is over, jump in here and rant and rave how you were right, and they were wrong.

If you want to declare Barwin a bust after one season, fine if it makes you feel better, but I think I'll wait a couple of years.

And there's this typical "meanwhile we could have done this, or done that". Typical 20/20 hindsight, "I know more than they know" bullshit. Give it a rest.

Hervoyel
01-05-2010, 05:03 PM
Conner Barwin turn the corner? What's the hurry? We're still waiting on Amobi Okoye to turn a corner so I haven't even started thinking about when Barwin will turn the corner.

Seriously though he'll show up next year. I really do expect that. He needs increased playing time to make an impact and he'll get it. One more training camp and this season under his belt and he'll be fine.

Since it's been a couple of years though I have no qualms about calling Amobi the bust that he is. 10th overall and no impact whatsoever. You could get his level of play from a street free agent and NFL minimum wage.

New_Texans
01-05-2010, 05:18 PM
Connor Barwin had a typical rookie season...up and down...what the hell were you guys expecting? He went in the 2nd round had 4 sacks and actually applied pressure when he didn't run himself out of a play.

Remember that Mario Williams dude? He had around 4 sacks his rookie year and then oh...yeah double digits the next two seasons and then nearly again this past season while playing with a bummed out shoulder.

Give the kid time.

Marcus
01-05-2010, 05:27 PM
Ask yourselves this question.

If everyone had known then what they know NOW, do you think for one second that Brian Cushing would have fallen to the 19th pick?

Here's another.

If everyone had known then what they know NOW, do you think for one seond that Demeco Ryans would have fallen to the 2nd round?

Drafts are what we all thought they were . . . crap shoots!!!!

Sometimes you roll 7s, sometimes you roll snake-eyes.

spurstexanstros
01-05-2010, 05:31 PM
Well, if you want to collect, collect. Your post reeks of to much 20/20 hindsight. And there way too many on here besides you that didn't like a certain pick, and then when the season is over, jump in here and rant and rave how you were right, and they were wrong.

If you want to declare Barwin a bust after one season, fine if it makes you feel better, but I think I'll wait a couple of years.

And there's this typical "meanwhile we could have done this, or done that". Typical 20/20 hindsight, "I know more than they know" bullshit. Give it a rest.
its not that it is...we could be a playoff team if drafting decsions went a different way...and here is the example.

It is not 20/20 hindsight..alot of us saw this coming and got ripped ridiculously.

I just want them to not make the same draft mistakes...draft a rb... secondary help and some ol back ups..."For the love of God no more DE's"

spurstexanstros
01-05-2010, 05:33 PM
Ask yourselves this question.

If everyone had known then what they know NOW, do you think for one second that Brian Cushing would have fallen to the 19th pick?

Here's another.

If everyone had known then what they know NOW, do you think for one seond that Demeco Ryans would have fallen to the 2nd round?

Drafts are what we all thought they were . . . crap shoots!!!!

Sometimes you roll 7s, sometimes you roll snake-eyes.

You dont draft projects or tweeners with the first or second round pic. 2nd round are high value picks and we needed a high value player. We didnt get that with Barwin.

dalemurphy
01-05-2010, 05:40 PM
You dont draft projects or tweeners with the first or second round pic. 2nd round are high value picks and we needed a high value player. We didnt get that with Barwin.

Teams like Pittsburgh, New England, and Philadelphia draft projects in the 1st and 2nd rounds all the time.. Perhaps they don't know what they are doing.

By the way, that project was a pretty effective player for this team this year.

Ndevine7
01-05-2010, 05:41 PM
You dont draft projects or tweeners with the first or second round pic. 2nd round are high value picks and we needed a high value player. We didnt get that with Barwin.

You do draft projects in the first or second round if you feel that they have the potential. Not everyone you draft is gonna be a bonafide starter there first season. We got lucky with Demeco and Cushing. In the limited time Barwin saw he was impressive and with another full training camp under his belt he could be a high quality player next year. Was Mario a bust cause he had a poor first season?

stingray
01-05-2010, 05:42 PM
I said that then to...especially when in the third they took a center...my response was if you needed a center then why not take the best one in second round?


Comparing Tony and Manu to Barwin is totally different.
Tony was an immediate impact player but needed to be polished and has grown from a rookie. Barwin was in no way an impact player for the Texans. He had his moments but the game did not come down to his performance.

Manu on the other hand was a revolution unto himself..he changed the way the NBA looked at foreeign players and in fact I believe Manu is the best foreign player ever.(now not so much) Barwin is not the best DE ever and he didnt make plays his rookie year that led to playoff wins..so no on that as well.

As for a decent rb can be found in any round...then why didnt we find one last year? That was a lame excuse in the draft and so was the line..we will find one in FA...we didnt. And I cant believe anyone on here is wiling to mortgage our running game on Foster and Slaton...if so we would be making the same mistake.

Tony Parker an immediate impact player? He averaged 9 points and shot 41% his first year? Yeah, that's a great impact!! LOL!

Yeah, And you are talking about Manu now because if they knew now what they didn't know then, he would have picked in the top three. You are acting like the Spurs knew he was going to do what he did. Come on man, you can't have it both ways. The Spurs have also missed on many other foreign and project players that they drafted. They just hit on Manu and Tony, and that's all you need to do is hit on a couple of projects.

Also, Manu didn't change the way the NBA looks at foreign players. Drazen Petrovic did that. Drazen was on his way to have just as good or better career than Manu but he was killed in a car accident. And I hope you meant that Manu is the greatest player to come from a foreign league because as the best foreign born player, Manu is not even close. That title belongs to Hakeem Olajuwon. Manu couldn't shine Hakeems shoes.

dalemurphy
01-05-2010, 05:44 PM
You dont draft projects or tweeners with the first or second round pic. 2nd round are high value picks and we needed a high value player. We didnt get that with Barwin.

Perhaps it was also a mistake to draft a high impact player in the 4th round?(Glover Quin) Because, you are supposed to draft projects in rounds 4 and 5, right?

Ndevine7
01-05-2010, 05:45 PM
Perhaps it was also a mistake to draft a high impact player in the 4th round?(Glover Quin) Because, you are supposed to draft projects in rounds 4 and 5, right?

im guessing owen daniels was a poor pick in the 4th round we shouldve drafted a project

stingray
01-05-2010, 05:46 PM
I said that then to...especially when in the third they took a center...my response was if you needed a center then why not take the best one in second round?


Comparing Tony and Manu to Barwin is totally different.
Tony was an immediate impact player but needed to be polished and has grown from a rookie. Barwin was in no way an impact player for the Texans. He had his moments but the game did not come down to his performance.

Manu on the other hand was a revolution unto himself..he changed the way the NBA looked at foreeign players and in fact I believe Manu is the best foreign player ever.(now not so much) Barwin is not the best DE ever and he didnt make plays his rookie year that led to playoff wins..so no on that as well.

As for a decent rb can be found in any round...then why didnt we find one last year? That was a lame excuse in the draft and so was the line..we will find one in FA...we didnt. And I cant believe anyone on here is wiling to mortgage our running game on Foster and Slaton...if so we would be making the same mistake.

Comparing Tony and Manu to Barwin is totally different.
Tony was an immediate impact player but needed to be polished and has grown from a rookie. I think you just made my point.

And noTony Parker was not an immediate impact player. He averaged 9 points and shot 41% his first year? Yeah, that's a great impact!! LOL!

Yeah, And you are talking about Manu now because if they knew then what they know now, he would have picked in the top three. You are acting like the Spurs knew he was going to do what he did. Come on man, you can't have it both ways. The Spurs have also missed on many other foreign and project players that they drafted. They just hit on Manu and Tony, and that's all you need to do is hit on a couple of projects.

Also, Manu didn't change the way the NBA looks at foreign players. Drazen Petrovic did that. Drazen was on his way to have just as good or better career than Manu but he was killed in a car accident. And I hope you meant that Manu is the greatest player to come from a foreign league because as the best foreign born player, Manu is not even close. That title belongs to Hakeem Olajuwon. Manu couldn't shine Hakeems shoes.

steelbtexan
01-05-2010, 05:56 PM
Barwin had a Typical rookie year.

If Mario hadn't gotten hurt he probably would havehad more sacks. I'm looking forward to seeing if Barwin can make the typical rookie to 2nd year jump.

A good offseason and I think he will.

Greene was drafted before our 2nd rd pick. So that is a moot point.

Coffee didn't do squat. If you want to talk Unger that's a different conversation.

But Barwin has as much potential as anybody we could have drafted at that point in the 2nd rd. IMO

If Kubes had played Foster earlier in the season this season may have turned out differently.

Foster looked about as good as Greene and better than Coffee but it took Kubes a whole season to see what he had in Foster.

Kubes love for C.Brown knew no bounds this season.

spurstexanstros
01-05-2010, 05:59 PM
I think you just made my point.

And noTony Parker was not an immediate impact player. He averaged 9 points and shot 41% his first year? Yeah, that's a great impact!! LOL!

Yeah, And you are talking about Manu now because if they knew then what they know now, he would have picked in the top three. You are acting like the Spurs knew he was going to do what he did. Come on man, you can't have it both ways. The Spurs have also missed on many other foreign and project players that they drafted. They just hit on Manu and Tony, and that's all you need to do is hit on a couple of projects.

Also, Manu didn't change the way the NBA looks at foreign players. Drazen Petrovic did that. Drazen was on his way to have just as good or better career than Manu but he was killed in a car accident. And I hope you meant that Manu is the greatest player to come from a foreign league because as the best foreign born player, Manu is not even close. That title belongs to Hakeem Olajuwon. Manu couldn't shine Hakeems shoes.

But can Hakeem shine Manu's three rings?..lets save the Spurs rockets rivalry smack for when the Rocketts matter in the playoffs...ummmm when #21 retires...or the proper thread.

anyways back to the topic...with the second round pick in the NFL you need to take a highvalue pick. NBA's second round far different than NFL not same value.

Ndevine7
01-05-2010, 06:08 PM
The CB from Utah i think his name is Sean Smith, He couldve been an impact player right away this season, but i have nothing against the Barwin pick because i feel he will become a very good pass rusher

Double Barrel
01-05-2010, 06:19 PM
Conner Barwin turn the corner? What's the hurry? We're still waiting on Amobi Okoye to turn a corner so I haven't even started thinking about when Barwin will turn the corner.


What is the expiration date on first round picks before you start mentioning the "B word"?

I'm just curious, because I'm starting to feel like Rip van Winkle waiting for Amobi to become...errr...develop into that player deserving of a first round pick.

But I suppose three years is too soon, simply because we are a 'benefit of the doubt' fanbase/franchise. We gave HWSNBN five years to prove he was a gigantic bust.

You dont draft projects or tweeners with the first or second round pic. 2nd round are high value picks and we needed a high value player. We didnt get that with Barwin.

Teams like Pittsburgh, New England, and Philadelphia draft projects in the 1st and 2nd rounds all the time.. Perhaps they don't know what they are doing.

By the way, that project was a pretty effective player for this team this year.

You are not really comparing the Texans to the Steelers, Patriots, or Eagles, right?

We are not a team that has the depth that allows you to afford picking project players in the first round. JMO

Jackie Chiles
01-05-2010, 06:23 PM
If we hadn't drafted Barwin last year we would have had to get a pass rusher in the first or second round in this next draft. Heck, I'd like to see us grab a DT early with some pass rush ability. As much as all of you naysayers don't want to believe it Barwin made an impact this season and was part of the reason our defense made a big jump. We invested our two premium picks on defense and it paid off this year. What kind of production is going to be enough to satisfy you next season?

JB
01-06-2010, 07:32 AM
Ask yourselves this question.

If everyone had known then what they know NOW, do you think for one second that Brian Cushing would have fallen to the 19th pick?

Here's another.

If everyone had known then what they know NOW, do you think for one seond that Demeco Ryans would have fallen to the 2nd round?

Drafts are what we all thought they were . . . crap shoots!!!!

Sometimes you roll 7s, sometimes you roll snake-eyes.

What?

dalemurphy
01-06-2010, 07:54 AM
You are not really comparing the Texans to the Steelers, Patriots, or Eagles, right?

We are not a team that has the depth that allows you to afford picking project players in the first round. JMO


You would rather us act like the Lions and Browns in the draft since we have similar records this decade?

GuerillaBlack
01-06-2010, 07:58 AM
But can Hakeem shine Manu's three rings?..lets save the Spurs rockets rivalry smack for when the Rocketts matter in the playoffs...ummmm when #21 retires...or the proper thread.

anyways back to the topic...with the second round pick in the NFL you need to take a highvalue pick. NBA's second round far different than NFL not same value.

I think Hakeem is fine with his two rings and NBA MVP trophy in his home. The Spurs must have enjoyed being knocked out by the Mavericks, in the FIRST round, so quickly last year, huh? Hakeem > Manu, no question.

And give Barwin time. He's shown some great flashes this year. Amobi had a good rookie season, but so did Mario... We'll wait and see what direction he takes.

BigBull17
01-06-2010, 08:11 AM
Barwin had a Typical rookie year.

If Mario hadn't gotten hurt he probably would havehad more sacks. I'm looking forward to seeing if Barwin can make the typical rookie to 2nd year jump.

A good offseason and I think he will.

Greene was drafted before our 2nd rd pick. So that is a moot point.

Coffee didn't do squat. If you want to talk Unger that's a different conversation.

But Barwin has as much potential as anybody we could have drafted at that point in the 2nd rd. IMO

If Kubes had played Foster earlier in the season this season may have turned out differently.
Foster looked about as good as Greene and better than Coffee but it took Kubes a whole season to see what he had in Foster.

Kubes love for C.Brown knew no bounds this season.

Thats what bugs me. He does that way to often, not playing a guy early, then when he does, the guy goes ape shit and you think what could have been.

ArlingtonTexan
01-06-2010, 09:12 AM
Rookie sack totals

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=SACKS&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=0&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go

JB
01-06-2010, 09:19 AM
Thats what bugs me. He does that way to often, not playing a guy early, then when he does, the guy goes ape shit and you think what could have been.

Maybe they are able to go ape shit because he held them out until they were ready?

Goldensilence
01-06-2010, 10:02 AM
Well, if you want to collect, collect. Your post reeks of to much 20/20 hindsight. And there way too many on here besides you that didn't like a certain pick, and then when the season is over, jump in here and rant and rave how you were right, and they were wrong.

If you want to declare Barwin a bust after one season, fine if it makes you feel better, but I think I'll wait a couple of years.

And there's this typical "meanwhile we could have done this, or done that". Typical 20/20 hindsight, "I know more than they know" bullshit. Give it a rest.

There's no hindsight needed. I said from day one what I post draft. If you don't believe me look up my post history.

If you want to shrug it off fine. I really don't care about being right as much as I wish this franchise wouldn't take as many project players with high picks.

BTW no one has still addressed that Bulman put up pretty much the same damn numbers last year.

Teams like Pittsburgh, New England, and Philadelphia draft projects in the 1st and 2nd rounds all the time.. Perhaps they don't know what they are doing.

By the way, that project was a pretty effective player for this team this year.

Sure if you ware one of those three teams, one which most recently won a superbowl and the other two are perennial playoff teams you can take a raw project player because you can afford to. To me if you're on the cusp of making the playoff you need contributions from your top 2-3 picks.

You dont draft projects or tweeners with the first or second round pic. 2nd round are high value picks and we needed a high value player. We didnt get that with Barwin.

You can draft a tweener if you're running a 3-4, but that's not my bag. My problem is value at the pick. I keep hearing he just needs more playing time. Well unless we're going to slide Smith inside more often, it's just not going to happen. We've got a part time pass rusher with our second round when we needed more this year.

I just feel we're left holding the same bag with Barwin that we have been with Amobi, Molden (though it's still early looks like a wasted third round pick), Jacoby Jones(it finally looks like a light has come on) and now Barwin.

We're almost always left saying well, if only only Amobi would turn a corner this DL would take off. If only Molden would show up we'd be set at corner. If only JJ could get his head on straight we'll be scary at WR. Now it's man if Barwin can turn a corner we'll get a great pass rush.

Yeah we can wait 3 years to see, but that means we'll be still likely be a year or two behind the other playoff teams waiting for these guys to make that promised impact.

I think the Parker comparison is a bad one. Parker did only average 9.2 points a game, but he didn't need to make an impact there because of the talent he had a round him. He still managed to play nearly 30 minutes a game and the team finished with the best record in the NBA his rookie season. He also played professional ball in France, and while he might've been raw in terms of moving to the NBA he wasn't raw as a point guard.

Ginobili isn't much of a good one either. He had a lot of success overseas in the Italian league. Where he won several championships and MVPs. Again in terms of NBA play might've been raw, but in terms of a basketball player he was pretty damn polished by the time he signed with the Spurs.

Marcus
01-06-2010, 01:22 PM
If you want to shrug it off fine. I really don't care about being right as much as I wish this franchise wouldn't take as many project players with high picks.

If this team's drafting strategy is the same is the Patriots, the Steelers, and the Eagles, then I don't have a problem with it. Maybe you do if you have still have that obsolete logic of . . . "we shouldn't be comparing the Texans to the Steelers, Patriots, or Eagles, because this team that hasn't got the depth that allows you to afford picking project players in the first round."

That is expansion team logic. We just beat one of those teams on Sunday. The Steelers and the Eagles don't have better records than the Texans. What they did in previous years has no bearing. And they have just as many holes on their teams as we do. This team is eight years old, and continuing to steadily improve.

What, are you implying that we shouldn't draft the same as the Patriots, the Steelars, and Eagles until we make playoffs? How do you think think they got there?

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2010, 11:07 PM
Barwin is just scratching the surface. I have a strong feeling, barring injury, that this will not be a question mark for most come the half season mark.

He has shown incremental improvement over the year, has a motor, is new to the position, and athletic. 2009 is over, what about Barwin is there not to like? I know Amobi Okoye, and Barwin is no Okoye. :kitten:

Goatcheese
01-07-2010, 05:31 AM
Rookie sack totals

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=SACKS&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=0&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Nice to see Barwin come up with 4.5 sacks + an intentional grounding call.

Grams
01-07-2010, 06:27 AM
I don't have season tickets so I just watch the games at home.

I won't say Okoye is a great players, but he was there on a lot more plays this year. Might not have been credited with the sack or tackle, but seemed to be in the pile of Texans in on the plays.

Barwin also, he might not have all the stats but he was in the QB's face a lot this year.

His legal shove on Brady was great. He let Brady know they were not afraid of him and would put him on the ground everytime they could. Think he helped get Brady out of his comfort zone. Brady does not do well when he gets put on the ground a lot.

I think he was a good pick and will only get better in the coming years.

I am not an NFL scout or coach and do not know when a player is ready to play full time. I leave that up to the people in charge of player development. How do we know when a player has learned the play book and know where to go when. Some will pick it up faster than others. Some may be nursing an injury and it takes a while to be in good playing shape. Maybe why some players (Foster) did not play till later in the season. We can only speculate as to why he was not played earlier in the year.

dalemurphy
01-07-2010, 08:02 AM
Sure if you ware one of those three teams, one which most recently won a superbowl and the other two are perennial playoff teams you can take a raw project player because you can afford to. To me if you're on the cusp of making the playoff you need contributions from your top 2-3 picks.


Well, it seems to me that we got significant contributions from our first 4 picks:
Cushing
Barwin
Caldwell
Quin

...not to mention our 6th round pick: McCain and an UDFA rookie: A.Foster.

I'm not sure how a reasonable person can complain about the lack of impact from this rookie class. Pardon Rick Smith if his 4th rounder was more immediately valuable than his 2nd rounder. Though, I doubt he will be hearing any complaints from McNair or Kubes about that.

Barwin brought a unique skill set to the team. Bush often used him in ways that freed up A. Smith and others on twists, stunts, and just strange alignments. 4 sacks in part time duty is pretty good. I realize Orakpo had more sacks but I'm not sure what that had to do with the 46th pick in the draft.

Honoring Earl 34
01-07-2010, 08:49 AM
Well, it seems to me that we got significant contributions from our first 4 picks:
Cushing
Barwin
Caldwell
Quin

...not to mention our 6th round pick: McCain and an UDFA rookie: A.Foster.

I'm not sure how a reasonable person can complain about the lack of impact from this rookie class. Pardon Rick Smith if his 4th rounder was more immediately valuable than his 2nd rounder. Though, I doubt he will be hearing any complaints from McNair or Kubes about that.

Barwin brought a unique skill set to the team. Bush often used him in ways that freed up A. Smith and others on twists, stunts, and just strange alignments. 4 sacks in part time duty is pretty good. I realize Orakpo had more sacks but I'm not sure what that had to do with the 46th pick in the draft.

Maybe it was just my imagination but did the Texans play a 3-4 against the Pats ? I thought I saw Barwin was playing a standup DE .

DexmanC
01-07-2010, 09:01 AM
Maybe they are able to go ape shit because he held them out until they were ready?

Nah. That's not Kubiak's style. I highly doubt we'd have seen Arian Foster
AT ALL, had Chris Brown not thrown that interception against the Jags.

Goldensilence
01-07-2010, 09:34 AM
Well, it seems to me that we got significant contributions from our first 4 picks:
Cushing
Barwin
Caldwell
Quin

...not to mention our 6th round pick: McCain and an UDFA rookie: A.Foster.

I'm not sure how a reasonable person can complain about the lack of impact from this rookie class. Pardon Rick Smith if his 4th rounder was more immediately valuable than his 2nd rounder. Though, I doubt he will be hearing any complaints from McNair or Kubes about that.

Barwin brought a unique skill set to the team. Bush often used him in ways that freed up A. Smith and others on twists, stunts, and just strange alignments. 4 sacks in part time duty is pretty good. I realize Orakpo had more sacks but I'm not sure what that had to do with the 46th pick in the draft.

I never said anything about Caldwell or Quinn contributing. Hey if we get big time contributions from anything past a 3rd rounder that's icing on the cake to me. I'm not complaining, just pointing out with Quinn and McCain they got more PT because we decided to cut ties with all seasoned vets at DB. I think it was the right move though. Really I give credit to Gibbs for getting those guys ready to play as opposed to the blackhole that was Jon Hoke.

I like Barwin's athelticism, and obviously that's why he was drafted. I don't get what's so hard to swallow about me thinking we could've gotten better production from some of the other players I've mentioned at the same spot. Barring an injury (football gods don't let it happen) not going to be a full-time starter though.

No one still has addressed that we got the same production from Tim Bulman last year.

dalemurphy
01-07-2010, 10:17 AM
I never said anything about Caldwell or Quinn contributing. Hey if we get big time contributions from anything past a 3rd rounder that's icing on the cake to me. I'm not complaining, just pointing out with Quinn and McCain they got more PT because we decided to cut ties with all seasoned vets at DB. I think it was the right move though. Really I give credit to Gibbs for getting those guys ready to play as opposed to the blackhole that was Jon Hoke.

I like Barwin's athelticism, and obviously that's why he was drafted. I don't get what's so hard to swallow about me thinking we could've gotten better production from some of the other players I've mentioned at the same spot. Barring an injury (football gods don't let it happen) not going to be a full-time starter though.

No one still has addressed that we got the same production from Tim Bulman last year.


Same production in terms of sacks... Bulman was a 4th year player as opposed to a rookie. Also, Bulman can not physically do the things that Barwin was asked to do this year and certainly beyond. Barwin can threaten the edge and play in a two point stance off the LOS. Bulman, nor any other DL player on the Texans can do that.

I'm not sure why you think Barwin will only be a part time player. That being said, I would argue that a great defensive line has ONLY part time players. Heavy DL rotation is something I know Kollar believes in and is a key to a great DL, IMO.

infantrycak
01-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Maybe it was just my imagination but did the Texans play a 3-4 against the Pats ? I thought I saw Barwin was playing a standup DE .

That wasn't your imagination. They were mixing things up. There were a few plays where DeMeco and Cushing swapped as well.

El Tejano
01-07-2010, 11:29 AM
No one still has addressed that we got the same production from Tim Bulman last year.

The way I see it with Bulman is that Bulman has peaked. I believe that we've seen the best we are going to get out of Bulman. More upside to Barwin. Coming in as a rookie situational pass rusher he's just learning the pro game. Once he gets all coached up is where I think we will see the difference.

Goldensilence
01-07-2010, 01:09 PM
The way I see it with Bulman is that Bulman has peaked. I believe that we've seen the best we are going to get out of Bulman. More upside to Barwin. Coming in as a rookie situational pass rusher he's just learning the pro game. Once he gets all coached up is where I think we will see the difference.

I guess that is the bottom line and I sure hope you guys are right. Though I can't help but be a bit remiscient to think that with with McCoy or Greene here instead we'd be in the playoffs.

Guess I'll have to settle for the Texans motto. "Wait til next year!"

ArlingtonTexan
01-07-2010, 01:42 PM
I am not an NFL scout or coach and do not know when a player is ready to play full time. I leave that up to the people in charge of player development. How do we know when a player has learned the play book and know where to go when. Some will pick it up faster than others. Some may be nursing an injury and it takes a while to be in good playing shape. Maybe why some players (Foster) did not play till later in the season. We can only speculate as to why he was not played earlier in the year.


None of us are, but as a group we somehow get trapped into thinking that those pro scouts know exactly how long this guy or that will take to make an impact (they don't). Getting a rookie like Cushing is outstanding, but really most rookies are much like Duane Brown, or Caldwell or Barwin; they do some good things and flash, but really are not ready to come in and play at a consistent starter's level. Drafts are much more about long-term talent acquisition than guaranteed immediate impact. That said, the next for months the general obsession will be about which guys we think can come and do exactly what relatively few rookies do and be a starting quality player from day 1.