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View Full Version : PFF our offensive line..... help.


thunderkyss
10-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Goatcheese pointed me to this site (http://profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=13&stype=a&stats=o), but I can't make sense of what it's telling me. I may very well may not want to believe what it's saying.... but that's a different story.

What do these numbers (http://profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=13&stype=a&stats=o) tell us about our offensive line.

Pos. Name Total Run Pass Run Block Pass Block Overall Pass Rush Pass Block Screen Block Run Block Penalty # of Pen QB Sk QB Ht QB Pr
-33.1 19.5 -8.2 -2.2 6.0 -36.2 -12.0 11-1 9 17 34
OL Chris Myers 328 0 0 128 200 -2.7 1.4 1.5 -4.6 -1.0 1-0 0 1 4
OL Mike Brisiel 328 0 0 128 200 -0.6 1.7 1.0 -1.3 -2.0 1-0 1 0 6
OL Eric Winston 328 0 0 128 200 -4.3 -1.7 0.5 -2.1 -1.0 1-0 2 4 9
OL Kasey Studdard 228 0 0 96 132 -9.0 -5.4 1.0 -4.6 0.0 0-0 1 2 7
OL Chester Pitts 83 0 0 26 57 0.5 2.2 0.0 -0.7 -1.0 1-0 0 0 0
OL Chris L. White 17 0 0 6 11 -1.6 0.4 0.0 -2.0 0.0 0-0 0 0 0

utahmark
10-15-2009, 08:04 PM
bunch of negative total scores for a team that scores points the way we do. looks like a bunch of stats that say what we already know. we cant run but we are very good at passing.

thunderkyss
10-15-2009, 08:09 PM
Is there any kind of science to how they come up with those numbers?

Goatcheese
10-15-2009, 08:18 PM
Is there any kind of science to how they come up with those numbers?

No.

They use a play by play rating system that awards from -2 to +2 to each play based on the individual's performance on that play. -2 is a one in a thousand bad play, 0 is an average play, and +2 is a one in a thousand good play.

I don't like their scoring system because a player could have 50 average plays in a game, then have one embarrassing screw up and get slapped with a -2 as if they stunk it up the whole game. I just use them for their stat tracking, and form my own opinion based on that and watching the games.

76Texan
10-15-2009, 08:27 PM
It tells you that if you look for the 2008 stats, Myers was the best overall O-linemen that we had. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

He ranked #12 among Centers in the league who started a majority number of games last year.

And he ranked #6 this year among Centers who started all 5 games;
#19 among those who started at least 4 games this year.
(Since I don't know which teams had the early bye-week, I just count them all.)

dsorc
10-15-2009, 08:45 PM
There's a lot there that is reflective of what we already knew. For example, Owen Daniels has done great in the passing game but has struggled run blocking. Kasey Studdard sucks at both pass and run blocking. And while Myers has done ok pass blocking he is getting owned in run blocking. The more worrying numbers are from Winston who is struggling in both facets of the game. On the plus side, it's very encouraging how much better Brown has gotten even though he could improve his run blocking even more.

thunderkyss
10-16-2009, 05:40 AM
No.

They use a play by play rating system that awards from -2 to +2 to each play based on the individual's performance on that play. -2 is a one in a thousand bad play, 0 is an average play, and +2 is a one in a thousand good play.

I don't like their scoring system because a player could have 50 average plays in a game, then have one embarrassing screw up and get slapped with a -2 as if they stunk it up the whole game. I just use them for their stat tracking, and form my own opinion based on that and watching the games.

Thanks for that explanation.

thunderkyss
10-16-2009, 05:48 AM
It tells you that if you look for the 2008 stats, Myers was the best overall O-linemen that we had. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

He ranked #12 among Centers in the league who started a majority number of games last year.

And he ranked #6 this year among Centers who started all 5 games;
#19 among those who started at least 4 games this year.
(Since I don't know which teams had the early bye-week, I just count them all.)

So then someone objectively looking at this game has ranked Myers as one of our better OL men, going back through last season?

hmmmm

& among the worse, you have.... Eric Winston & Kasey Studdurd for this year, and

OMG, for 2008, their stats show Myers as our best Lineman overall, and he & Briesel owned in the running game. Pitts is/was avg at best, & our biggest liability in the run game.


Just like I've been saying... wow.

It's nice to stumble on data that validates your opinion.

thunderkyss
10-16-2009, 05:54 AM
...

OMG, for 2008, their stats show ... Pitts is/was avg at best, & our biggest liability in the run game.



Houston fans want to win, I get that. But they "say" they also want an organization that takes care of their stars...... key players who've helped this organization accomplish what little it has accomplished so far.

But you give David Carr $8 million and another year..... they *****, they gripe.... I know I was one of them.

You franchise Dunta.... something his play on the field has never warranted..... they *****... again, that was me.

You allow an avg at best "couldn't play LT on a bad team switched to guard and is avg there" guy start, even though your best friends son is itching to play...... and they call for your head...... they want you fired.

& it hasn't even been 4 years yet.

Gotta love Houston fans.

Malloy
10-16-2009, 05:56 AM
Ive been dissapointed in Winston this year, and I'm 'glad' that the stats kinda point in the same direction.

Dont know what is up with him, he seems unable to stop much.

gtexan02
10-16-2009, 08:40 AM
Brown has either given up a sack or nothing. He has 0 QB pressures. I guess thats what happens when you play the blindside

HOU-TEX
10-16-2009, 10:38 AM
So then someone objectively looking at this game has ranked Myers as one of our better OL men, going back through last season?

hmmmm

& among the worse, you have.... Eric Winston & Kasey Studdurd for this year, and

OMG, for 2008, their stats show Myers as our best Lineman overall, and he & Briesel owned in the running game. Pitts is/was avg at best, & our biggest liability in the run game.


Just like I've been saying... wow.

It's nice to stumble on data that validates your opinion.

By looking at the little chart, Myers is right there with Studdard being the worst in the running game. Which would validate my opinion....if I wanted to rely on some chart.

I'd rather watch the game myself and form an opinion

Honoring Earl 34
10-16-2009, 11:03 AM
http://profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=18&stype=a&stats=o

http://profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=17&stype=a&stats=o

http://profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=14&stype=a&stats=o

http://profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=31&stype=a&stats=o

http://profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=2&stype=a&stats=o

badboy
10-16-2009, 11:04 AM
We have signed on to a ZBS offense with an Oline used for that purpose. They are moving the chain in the air and only look "owned" when Kubes insists on a large # of plays by RB. Maybe we need more receptions being carried into the end zone. If our D continues to step up, maybe we can 3 point 'em to death? We seem to be scoring 21+ per game and if we could add three field goals rather than turning the ball over in red zone (or end zone for that matter). that would be 30 points & with an shiny new improved defense, we should win out the rest of season. How's that for a plan?

Goldensilence
10-16-2009, 12:22 PM
By looking at the little chart, Myers is right there with Studdard being the worst in the running game. Which would validate my opinion....if I wanted to rely on some chart.

I'd rather watch the game myself and form an opinion

Yep.

Sure between the 20's they don't look too terrible, but when it gets time to get a push or hold the LOS in a deciding moment. They always seem to come up short.

For the life of me as well, I can't help but figure out Winston. When they signed him to the extension he looked like one of the upcoming young RTs of the league. Seems since Fred Weary went down and didn't get resigned he's struggled. Now I'm not sure Fred was all that great but...well Just saying Brisiel did "replace" him.

76Texan
10-16-2009, 05:01 PM
By looking at the little chart, Myers is right there with Studdard being the worst in the running game. Which would validate my opinion....if I wanted to rely on some chart.

I'd rather watch the game myself and form an opinion

I think you are grasping at straws here, Hou-Tex! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you go to the individual page:
http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Myers&playerid=2417
you will see that the two games that Myers was "bad" in the running game was the Raiders game and the Titans game.

In the Raiders game, I've already said that Myers was only bad toward the end of the game; specifically in our last drive that took over 7 mins.
We kept the ball and ran out the clock.

In the Titans game, Barrett actually gave Myers pretty good mark in both the running game and the passing game:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64894 (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64894)

I said that Myers was so so, and not all that good;
but his "lacking" was not of consequences.
No harm, no foul what I meant!

76Texan
10-16-2009, 05:04 PM
Brisiel had one good game that really bumps up his score:

http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Brisiel&playerid=3250

badboy
10-16-2009, 05:12 PM
I've got two Olinemen on my draft board.

76Texan
10-16-2009, 05:25 PM
I've got two Olinemen on my draft board.

Some of you may not remember, but I had Caldwell and Herman Johnson as the two that I wanted to draft. (In the "who would you have taken" thread.)

Just so Hou-Tex and others know that I'm not down on Caldwell.
I just think that he needs time to develop, that's all.

And I wanted to use "big bad herman munster" at Guard in short yardage situation.

thunderkyss
10-16-2009, 06:21 PM
By looking at the little chart, Myers is right there with Studdard being the worst in the running game. Which would validate my opinion....if I wanted to rely on some chart.

I'd rather watch the game myself and form an opinion

I'm not saying Myers is the bee's knees or anything of the sort. I'm saying there are weaker spots on our OL & for the life of me, I can't figure out why most fans "zone-in" on Myers.

When getting to the second level, Myers more times than not, will put a block on someone, and drive them away from the play. I'm not saying he doesn't miss... he does. I'm not saying LBs don't run around him... they do. I'm saying he is more likely to deter a LB/DB from making a play.

At the second level, Winston, & Pitts look retarded. I do agree, when Winston gets his hooks into someone that guy is out of the play. But he rarely does. Last year, when we would pull Pitts, or run a power type play, Pitts was the man. ZB... not so much.

At the line, when he moves right or left, he's more apt to lock up a DLman & move him sideways. To open up running lanes. Pat Williams did get penetration on one play. Jenkins did toss Myers on one play...

But Jenkins tossed Pitts at least 4 times. Brisiel has been playing poorly this year, but last year he was pretty good. Duane Brown looked like a mistake last year, but this year he is without a doubt the most improved. Winston rarely tries to engage at the line.. he's more likely to throw a pitiful cut block.


He doesn't do much cut blocking. Brisiel cut block very well last year. throwing his body into the defender's body. Winston, Pitts, Studdard, & Brown throw themselves at the space in front of their opponent, who doesn't have to do very much to avoid that block.

It's like on any given play, we're running behind 2 guys.... every now & then, we're running behind 3 guys. If we were a Power O team, that might be fine. Tell your back to follow so-and-so on this play, or so-and-so on that play. But with a ZBS system, he's supposed to press the LOS, read the blocks, determine which hole is developing, make one cut, then hit that hole.

If Winston & Owen Daniels is playing on the backside of a play, forget about a cut back.

I'm not dogging the talent of our OL. When they make plays, you can see they've got what it takes for us to be successful. If they could play as consistent as our ZB vet.... we would have something.

76Texan
10-17-2009, 10:06 AM
I'm not saying Myers is the bee's knees or anything of the sort. I'm saying there are weaker spots on our OL & for the life of me, I can't figure out why most fans "zone-in" on Myers.

When getting to the second level, Myers more times than not, will put a block on someone, and drive them away from the play. I'm not saying he doesn't miss... he does. I'm not saying LBs don't run around him... they do. I'm saying he is more likely to deter a LB/DB from making a play.

At the second level, Winston, & Pitts look retarded. I do agree, when Winston gets his hooks into someone that guy is out of the play. But he rarely does. Last year, when we would pull Pitts, or run a power type play, Pitts was the man. ZB... not so much.

At the line, when he moves right or left, he's more apt to lock up a DLman & move him sideways. To open up running lanes. Pat Williams did get penetration on one play. Jenkins did toss Myers on one play...

But Jenkins tossed Pitts at least 4 times. Brisiel has been playing poorly this year, but last year he was pretty good. Duane Brown looked like a mistake last year, but this year he is without a doubt the most improved. Winston rarely tries to engage at the line.. he's more likely to throw a pitiful cut block.


He doesn't do much cut blocking. Brisiel cut block very well last year. throwing his body into the defender's body. Winston, Pitts, Studdard, & Brown throw themselves at the space in front of their opponent, who doesn't have to do very much to avoid that block.

It's like on any given play, we're running behind 2 guys.... every now & then, we're running behind 3 guys. If we were a Power O team, that might be fine. Tell your back to follow so-and-so on this play, or so-and-so on that play. But with a ZBS system, he's supposed to press the LOS, read the blocks, determine which hole is developing, make one cut, then hit that hole.

If Winston & Owen Daniels is playing on the backside of a play, forget about a cut back.

I'm not dogging the talent of our OL. When they make plays, you can see they've got what it takes for us to be successful. If they could play as consistent as our ZB vet.... we would have something.
Great observations, TK!
That is pretty much what I saw.
I wouldn't say Winston was terrible in openspace last year though.
And Pitts is a bigger guy so it was to be expected that he doesn't release as quickly to the second level.
Also, as Vinny had said, Pitts doesn't like to cut block (he doesn't want to injure a guy, I assume). So when he had to, he didn't want to go early or high; therefore, we would see him roll down in front of the opponent quite a bit.
Brown played at a higher weight last year, and a lot of time, he lined up further away from the defender than Brisiel.
But, yes, Brisiel can throw a mean cut block.

Also, the bolded part is very true.

Kal
10-19-2009, 05:56 AM
No.

They use a play by play rating system that awards from -2 to +2 to each play based on the individual's performance on that play. -2 is a one in a thousand bad play, 0 is an average play, and +2 is a one in a thousand good play.

I don't like their scoring system because a player could have 50 average plays in a game, then have one embarrassing screw up and get slapped with a -2 as if they stunk it up the whole game. I just use them for their stat tracking, and form my own opinion based on that and watching the games.

Howdy ... been a while since i've had time to post on here ebcause of work for the aforementioned site (we're currently up to date on week 5). Just to hopefully put your mind at ease, in a process that I can't quite explain called 'normalisation' we have dealt with your concern so that we look at how many plays people are on the field and using this we have a proportional type system that reflects how players have played throughout.

This is what the site says on it

'Once we've got the raw grades we could leave it there but this would lead to a number of problems. For example, as an Offensive Lineman can only be negatively graded in pass protection the perfect score in the raw data is zero. However what if a lineman plays half the number of passing plays of another guy and they both score zero? What allows you to understand the second has done the better job? This is where Player Participation comes in; to fully understand how a player has performed we need to know how many plays they've participated in and what role they performed.

So when we look at, say, a TE we need to know how many plays they spent out in pass routes, how many times they blocked for the run and how many times they stayed in to block for the pass. To this number we then apply a normalization factor to set the AVERAGE player in that facet of the game to zero. To simplify, if you go to the by position tab and select TE the average grade for run blocking is zero, the average grade for pass blocking is zero and the average grade for pass receiving is zero.

The only exception to this is for the QB where every grade is raw and un-normalized. Why you ask? Well the process was going to be significantly more complex than for the other positions and as the QB generally came close to zero without normalization it seemed like the effort vs. reward equation wasn't too well balanced. I'll probably live to regret and change that decision'

Hopefully that puts your mind at ease, initially we didn't have the process and we had to deal with the problem you mentioned but since adding Player Participation and Normalisation this seems to have taken care of it.

76Texan
10-19-2009, 04:41 PM
Once again, I credit Chris Myers with many great blocks, especially on the second level.

He was instrumental in several of our big gainers and TDs! :)

Also, props to Anderson.
He is, pound for pound, our best blocking receiver.

badboy
10-19-2009, 05:16 PM
What about Duane Brown's pull to block on that Slaton catch? I did not think he would get there but he did and took his guy out.

76Texan
10-19-2009, 05:50 PM
What about Duane Brown's pull to block on that Slaton catch? I did not think he would get there but he did and took his guy out.

D.Brown doesn't catch flak from the board hardly anymore, so I don't see any need to decorate him.

After all, I was among his most vocal defenders last year, if not the most vocal one.

Kal
10-19-2009, 06:46 PM
He's a different player this year (Brown). I remember watching him last year and thinking he was hopeless, and this year I just don't notice him unless I'm going out of my way to see how he's doing because he's just not making mistakes.

Considering how much of a project he was last year, it makes me worry for Eugene Monroe who has looked terrible when I've seen him

thunderkyss
10-20-2009, 09:44 AM
Also, props to Anderson.
He is, pound for pound, our best blocking receiver.

Did anyone see what Winston did on our first play from scrimmage?

This was where Anderson put a great block on a CB, Winston couldn't find anything useful to do.....

I'm not really saying anything bad about Winston on this play... But Anderson did such a great job... if Winston had trusted DA to do his job, and went up field instead.... that would have been a touchdown, instead of a blocked Field goal.

Again, not saying anything bad about Winston, I'm sure there was a good reason he ran out there. But when I saw that block by DA, I was thinking "why can't our linemen block like that???!!"

He's a different player this year (Brown). I remember watching him last year and thinking he was hopeless, and this year I just don't notice him unless I'm going out of my way to see how he's doing because he's just not making mistakes.


QFT... it's amazing the difference in the way he plays this year. Like I said earlier, I don't know what Kubiak was seeing when he would talk about how good the kid was doing... But he obviously sees something.

Hopefully he's seeing that same thing in Studdard.. that I'm not seeing. You know he's always talking about how good a job Studdard is doing... I hope he's not blowing smoke.

HOU-TEX
10-20-2009, 10:03 AM
Did anyone see what Winston did on our first play from scrimmage?

This was where Anderson put a great block on a CB, Winston couldn't find anything useful to do.....

I'm not really saying anything bad about Winston on this play... But Anderson did such a great job... if Winston had trusted DA to do his job, and went up field instead.... that would have been a touchdown, instead of a blocked Field goal.

Again, not saying anything bad about Winston, I'm sure there was a good reason he ran out there. But when I saw that block by DA, I was thinking "why can't our linemen block like that???!!"


If you're talking about the screen to AJ, Winston was on the ground after whiffing on an attempt at a block.

I don't think Winston could've kept up with AJ running down the field in order to throw that final block 50+ yards down field. It'd be fun to watch him try though. :)

thunderkyss
10-20-2009, 11:11 AM
If you're talking about the screen to AJ, Winston was on the ground after whiffing on an attempt at a block.

I don't think Winston could've kept up with AJ running down the field in order to throw that final block 50+ yards down field. It'd be fun to watch him try though. :)

The game I saw, Winston ran all the way out to where DA was, and was about to help. He realized DA didn't need any help, and turned to catch the Corner that started outside DA..... damn near could have got a penalty for holding. Then he was running behind AJ, & I think he got in the way of one of AJ's pursuer.

Had the plan been for Winston to release to the secondary, & not to the slot.... Winston would have gotten a head start & been between AJ, and the guy who eventually pushed him out of bounds... way before they were 50 + yards down the field.

HOU-TEX
10-20-2009, 11:13 AM
The game I saw, Winston ran all the way out to where DA was, and was about to help. He realized DA didn't need any help, and turned to catch the Reciever that started outside DA..... damn near could have got a penalty for holding. Then he was running behind AJ, & I think he got in the way of one of AJ's pursuer.

Had the plan been for Winston to release to the secondary, & not to the slot.... Winston would have gotten a head start & been between AJ, and the guy who eventually pushed him out of bounds... way before they were 50 + yards down the field.

You might be right. I have yet to watch my DVR of the game again so I was going off what I remembered.

Big Poundcake
10-20-2009, 11:15 AM
How has OG Kasey Studdard been playing??


I don't get the Texans games where I live and I try and follow the game online,but I don't always get a feel for the individual performances of the O-Linemen.

How would y'all rate the play of Studdard???