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Yankee_In_TX
10-07-2009, 09:09 AM
On now. With McClain :clap:

Seriously though - one of them is going to be you must run to set up the pass.

Obviously you have to run to some extent to keep the defense honest, but do you think Kubiak puts too much stress on running the ball?

Especially after a HUGE day of passing (and a W) when he is regretting we didn't run more?

gtexan02
10-07-2009, 09:16 AM
I don't know what they are, but Im guessing:

1. A good run game is required for successful play action
2. A good defensive line/pass rush can hide a poor secondary
3. It takes more than 1 year to "rebuild" a franchise
4. A coach needs at least 3-5 years to be judged
5. NFL rookies can't be judged until theyve been in the NFL for at least 3 years
6. You can't win the superbowl unless you can run the ball and stop the run


The NFL truths for me are:
1. A great defense always beats a great offense
2. There is no position more important than a true franchise quarterback
3. Winning the turnover battle leads to winning the game
4. Any given Sunday (except for a few teams)

Vinny
10-07-2009, 11:59 AM
On now. With McClain :clap:

Seriously though - one of them is going to be you must run to set up the pass.

Obviously you have to run to some extent to keep the defense honest, but do you think Kubiak puts too much stress on running the ball?

Especially after a HUGE day of passing (and a W) when he is regretting we didn't run more?
I hear Kubiak speak it but when I watch the games he passes to set up the run quite a bit. Kubiak wants to get a lead and THEN pound the ball in a serious way methinks. I think that other stuff is just coachspeak.

Another of their top ten myths is that dome teams are soft.

TheRealJoker
10-07-2009, 12:02 PM
Kubes is just like Shanahan: Will ideally pass a lot in the first half and get a sizeable lead then run it down the opponent's throat in the second half to milk the clock and conserve the lead.

Malloy
10-07-2009, 12:07 PM
Kubes is just like Shanahan: Will ideally pass a lot in the first half and get a sizeable lead then run it down the opponent's throat in the second half to milk the clock and conserve the lead.

If it works then I'm all for it! :)

TheRealJoker
10-07-2009, 12:09 PM
If it works then I'm all for it! :)

It worked last week. Some people call it a prevent offense though if your running game isn't able to work well against 8 man fronts.

Thorn
10-07-2009, 12:22 PM
So what is NFLN's top 10 myths?

Yankee_In_TX
10-07-2009, 12:39 PM
10. Tackle stats are not accurate
9. QB's need a rocket arm to be successful
8. Teams should punt on 4th down
7. Turnovers matter
6. You need to run to set up the pass
5. Icing the kicker works
4. Dome teams are soft
3. Defense wins championships
2. It is next to impossible to repeat as champions
1. The prevent defense does not work

gtexan02
10-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Turnovers don't matter? what the heck?

texanmojo
10-07-2009, 12:59 PM
If it works then I'm all for it! :)

Not me...there is no such thing as TOO BIG OF A LEAD for ANY Houston team. No lead is too big for me to feel comfortable against any competitor and we should be raming it down the other team's throat until no more time is left on the clock.

I hate it when we play time management...just score...and score alot.

Yankee_In_TX
10-07-2009, 01:14 PM
Not me...there is no such thing as TOO BIG OF A LEAD for ANY Houston team. No lead is too big for me to feel comfortable against any competitor and we should be raming it down the other team's throat until no more time is left on the clock.

I hate it when we play time management...just score...and score alot.

Rich Eisen said no - the prevent offense is MUCH worse than the prevent defense.






I'll re-watch it tonight, I only saw 5 minutes worth this morning.

Goldensilence
10-07-2009, 02:10 PM
#1 myth........Prevent defense doesn't work.


WTF ever.

Double Barrel
10-07-2009, 03:14 PM
#1 myth........prevent defense doesn't work.


Wtf ever.

35-3 ;)

Goldensilence
10-07-2009, 03:18 PM
35-3 ;)

I was going to offer that up as proof it doesn't work. Thanks for the reminder DB. :bat:

HoustonFrog
10-07-2009, 03:22 PM
10. Tackle stats are not accurate -Myth
9. QB's need a rocket arm to be successful -Myth
8. Teams should punt on 4th down -Depends on distance left and place on field
7. Turnovers matter -WRONG--They do matter alot
6. You need to run to set up the pass -Myth but it helps
5. Icing the kicker works -Myth
4. Dome teams are soft -Myth but outdoors helps home team if you are a cold weather team in December
3. Defense wins championships -WRONG--it goes a long way and can make up for a medicore offense
2. It is next to impossible to repeat as champions -WRONG-look at repeats
1. The prevent defense does not work-WRONG-a team may end up winning but letting a team take chunks of the field and score just because you are up 17 isn't exactly a good thing and it can backfire


Bold above

Double Barrel
10-07-2009, 03:39 PM
I was going to offer that up as proof it doesn't work. Thanks for the reminder DB. :bat:

lol! The "prevent defense" is one of those code phrases that sends chills up my spine everytime I hear it. Obviously a result of posttraumatic stress disorder. :crazy:

gtexan02
10-07-2009, 03:45 PM
the prevent defense is excellent at preventing the team who uses it from winning.
Does it work great when the other team is in an obvious hail mary situation? Sure. Would I ever use it up by 10 with a few minutes left to play? hell no

infantrycak
10-07-2009, 03:52 PM
All those make sense except trying to call turnovers matter a myth. The stats are simply too strong. A plus one correlates to a win more than 70% of the time and a plus two to a win more than 90% of the time.

As for the prevent defense, Houston unfortunately has some particularly bad experiences with it, but for all the highly publicized examples of it failing there are probably ten examples where it works hence people discounting many stats racked up in garbage time at the end of a game. I personally hate seeing it because it makes the end of the game less fun to watch but on the whole probably deserves a myth label.

Glad to see the rocket arm thing make the myth list. Seems like if we had a poll around here for best QB of all time the plurality would pick Montana who was a classic example of not having a rocket arm as is his more recent competitor Peyton who also does not have a big arm (heck half the time he doesn't even throw a pretty spiral but it is to the right spot).

HoustonFrog
10-07-2009, 04:21 PM
My personal hatred for the prevent comes from the idea that you are usually using it because you have a nice lead and you built that lead by playing football for 55 of the 60 minutes. Also, your defense probably helped you alot to get that lead. If they couldn't move the ball against you for 55 minutes and it helped you get the 14 pt or whatever lead, why not keep using it or rushing with your basic nickle?Seriously, as I said above, you may end up winning but is it worth taking the chance by giving up gimmee 10-20 yard chunks and maybe a score to make it tight?

infantrycak
10-07-2009, 04:29 PM
My personal hatred for the prevent comes from the idea that you are usually using it because you have a nice lead and you built that lead by playing football for 55 of the 60 minutes. Also, your defense probably helped you alot to get that lead. If they couldn't move the ball against you for 55 minutes and it helped you get the 14 pt or whatever lead, why not keep using it or rushing with your basic nickle?Seriously, as I said above, you may end up winning but is it worth taking the chance by giving up gimmee 10-20 yard chunks and maybe a score to make it tight?

The flip side is exactly what Vinny pointed out would be the risk of our new attacking and blitzing D - it is subject to the big play. Look at Manning having the ball for less than 15 minutes the entire game a week ago. Scored once in 7 seconds and once in 30 seconds. I hate watching a prevent D but there is a logic to it - doesn't make for fun football to watch and won't always work.

HoustonFrog
10-07-2009, 04:38 PM
The flip side is exactly what Vinny pointed out would be the risk of our new attacking and blitzing D - it is subject to the big play. Look at Manning having the ball for less than 15 minutes the entire game a week ago. Scored once in 7 seconds and once in 30 seconds. I hate watching a prevent D but there is a logic to it - doesn't make for fun football to watch and won't always work.

I completely understand that. You can also have a man DB fall down and there is an instant TD or your example. I just think that alot of teams end up giving up the intial TD to start on that drive. Their goal is to keep the ball in bounds and let the clock burn but sometimes they score in about a minute anyways. I'd rather just play the D that got you there. You can still rush 4 and have a nickle in and not back off 15 yards. JMO. I see both sides. I just hate the philosophy. It seems to take the "killer" mentality away from the D.

Texan_Bill
10-07-2009, 04:42 PM
I completely understand that. You can also have a man DB fall down and there is an instant TD or your example. I just think that alot of teams end up giving up the intial TD to start on that drive. Their goal is to keep the ball in bounds and let the clock burn but sometimes they score in about a minute anyways. I'd rather just play the D that got you there. You can still rush 4 and have a nickle in and not back off 15 yards. JMO. I see both sides. I just hate the philosophy. It seems to take the "killer" mentality away from the D.

Or not cover the RB that is lined up outside. :gun:

Texan_Bill
10-07-2009, 04:43 PM
The #1 myth is the assumption that Pud Adams will live to see his team win a Super Bowl.

76Texan
10-07-2009, 04:55 PM
35-3 ;)

It was more the Moon than the D!

76Texan
10-07-2009, 04:58 PM
Bold above

Ya' nailed it Frog!

Malloy
10-07-2009, 05:03 PM
Stop dogging the prevent defense, it's really good if you're aiming at keeping the score close!

76Texan
10-07-2009, 05:07 PM
I completely understand that. You can also have a man DB fall down and there is an instant TD or your example. I just think that alot of teams end up giving up the intial TD to start on that drive. Their goal is to keep the ball in bounds and let the clock burn but sometimes they score in about a minute anyways. I'd rather just play the D that got you there. You can still rush 4 and have a nickle in and not back off 15 yards. JMO. I see both sides. I just hate the philosophy. It seems to take the "killer" mentality away from the D.

Except on this one.
A good D still needs to respect a good O.
IMO, it's percentage football.

But I do not like it much when you start easing up a bit too early while you have all the momentum.
You see a weakness, you got to pound on it and put them to submissive.
Killer instinct, they said!

stevn8r
10-07-2009, 05:23 PM
If prevent defense works, why not use it all game long then?

Never Liked it! Dance with who brung ya!:d:

Double Barrel
10-07-2009, 05:37 PM
It was more the Moon than the D!

yeah, because Moon played defense that day, too....riiiiiight.

Moon was 19/22 for 220 yards and 4 TDs in the first half. What more do you want from your QB? It's not his fault that the team did not even have a TE on the roster and had no ability to run the clock, and it's certainly not his fault that the defense could not protect a 32 point lead for 30 freakin' minutes.

While Moon certainly shares partial blame for throwing those INTs, he didn't miss those FGs or make those bad calls by officials or run the prevent. Besides, with a lead like that, most teams have formations to run clock off the board and keep the ball out of the air. One of the inherent flaws with the Oilers run & shoot was the lack of players to run power formations.

I can't blame Moon for that loss, and find it misguided of those that try.

silvrhand
10-07-2009, 06:57 PM
On now. With McClain :clap:

Seriously though - one of them is going to be you must run to set up the pass.

Obviously you have to run to some extent to keep the defense honest, but do you think Kubiak puts too much stress on running the ball?

Especially after a HUGE day of passing (and a W) when he is regretting we didn't run more?

We are winless under Kubiak when we run the ball less than 25 times a game, how about that for a stat?

silvrhand
10-07-2009, 07:00 PM
yeah, because Moon played defense that day, too....riiiiiight.

Moon was 19/22 for 220 yards and 4 TDs in the first half. What more do you want from your QB? It's not his fault that the team did not even have a TE on the roster and had no ability to run the clock, and it's certainly not his fault that the defense could not protect a 32 point lead for 30 freakin' minutes.

While Moon certainly shares partial blame for throwing those INTs, he didn't miss those FGs or make those bad calls by officials or run the prevent. Besides, with a lead like that, most teams have formations to run clock off the board and keep the ball out of the air. One of the inherent flaws with the Oilers run & shoot was the lack of players to run power formations.

I can't blame Moon for that loss, and find it misguided of those that try.

No, make it stop please.. :gun:

Yankee_In_TX
10-08-2009, 10:14 AM
It was a really good show, I watched the first half before I had to go to bed due to massive sinus headache.

It's ex players, coaches, and media giving their opinions on why those things are or are not myths. Pretty entertaining, though.

texanmojo
10-08-2009, 11:26 AM
I stand by my statement that there is no such thing as lead that is too big for ANY Houston team.

Run the score up...run it up so high that the other team does not have any chance at all in winning. And if the reverse happens to us...then we deserved it.

Texan_Bill
10-08-2009, 11:45 AM
yeah, because Moon played defense that day, too....riiiiiight.

Moon was 19/22 for 220 yards and 4 TDs in the first half. What more do you want from your QB? It's not his fault that the team did not even have a TE on the roster and had no ability to run the clock, and it's certainly not his fault that the defense could not protect a 32 point lead for 30 freakin' minutes.

While Moon certainly shares partial blame for throwing those INTs, he didn't miss those FGs or make those bad calls by officials or run the prevent. Besides, with a lead like that, most teams have formations to run clock off the board and keep the ball out of the air. One of the inherent flaws with the Oilers run & shoot was the lack of players to run power formations.

I can't blame Moon for that loss, and find it misguided of those that try.

That was a TOTAL team FAIL. Haywood Jeffries admitted that guys were making calls on their cell phones at half time, already celebrating. :gun:

dc_txtech
10-08-2009, 12:40 PM
That was a TOTAL team FAIL. Haywood Jeffries admitted that guys were making calls on their cell phones at half time, already celebrating. :gun:

There were cell phones in '93? Were they the ones that came in a giant bag?

Texan_Bill
10-08-2009, 12:47 PM
There were cell phones in '93? Were they the ones that came in a giant bag?

The "Brick"

https://wiki-land.wikispaces.com/file/view/brick_phone.jpg

Double Barrel
10-08-2009, 01:16 PM
I stand by my statement that there is no such thing as lead that is too big for ANY Houston team.

Run the score up...run it up so high that the other team does not have any chance at all in winning. And if the reverse happens to us...then we deserved it.

I agree completely. Which is why Kubiak's extremely conservative "play not to lose" mentality of sitting on a lead drives me nuts!

That was a TOTAL team FAIL. Haywood Jeffries admitted that guys were making calls on their cell phones at half time, already celebrating. :gun:

I remember that day well. Jungle Bob and I were on the front lawn at halftime grilling burgers and jumping around like a couple of football nuts. When Bubba McDowell returned that INT for a TD, it was like money in the bank. Little did we know that the bank was about to go under that day!

HoustonFrog
10-08-2009, 01:25 PM
I lived in Ft. Worth still...right before moving here. Though a Cowboy fan I rooted for the Oilers. My girlfriend at the time was from Buffalo...Jamestown, NY. I was laughing at her team going down. She went up to take a nap. After that I would yell upstairs everytime Buffalo scored. At first it was as a joke like "whoa, uh, here they come." Then I was like.."holy sheet." That was also my first year of fantasy football and we played a playoff player version. I had Andre Reed. So the whole thing was just weird.

76Texan
10-08-2009, 04:07 PM
yeah, because Moon played defense that day, too....riiiiiight.

Moon was 19/22 for 220 yards and 4 TDs in the first half. What more do you want from your QB? It's not his fault that the team did not even have a TE on the roster and had no ability to run the clock, and it's certainly not his fault that the defense could not protect a 32 point lead for 30 freakin' minutes.

While Moon certainly shares partial blame for throwing those INTs, he didn't miss those FGs or make those bad calls by officials or run the prevent. Besides, with a lead like that, most teams have formations to run clock off the board and keep the ball out of the air. One of the inherent flaws with the Oilers run & shoot was the lack of players to run power formations.

I can't blame Moon for that loss, and find it misguided of those that try.Sorry, DB. My memory is bad, but I have the game film.

Follow this and decide whether it was more Moon or more D!

The Oilers led 28-3 at halftime.

McDowell intercepted a pass and ran for a TD to start the second half.
Oilers led 35-3

The Oilers then foolishly decided to go with an onside kick.
Why? Why? Why?
That gave the Bills the short field at their 49.5
On 1-10, we had a chance for an INT.
The ball went through the hands of #50 Robinson?
McDowel almost broke off the pass.
We had a sack, a QB hit,
a good hit that couldn't jar the ball loose from the receiver,
two more passes defended on the goaline.
They converted a 4th down then scored to trail 10-35

The Bills got the ball back on an onside kick.
Then came the bad call when their receiver #82 Don Bebe stepped out of bound
and came back in for the 40yd-TD catch.
Bills now trailed 17-35

The D was still playing very well.

Oilers went 3 and out, with Moon late on a pass to Duncan on third down.
He was temporarily open on the sideline.

A bad punt gave the ball to the Bills at their 41
Now the D started to show some bad signs.
Miss tackles and receivers let completely wide open for no reason.

On the long TD pass to Reed, #24 Jackson just let him go free to walk into the end zone.
The Bills trailed only 24-35
The fix was in full swing.

On second down, Moon's pass was high; Slaughter got his fingertips on the ball;
it doesn't matter whether he touched it or not, that ball was to be intercepted.

The Bills now got the ball on our 23.
McDowell almost intercepted a pass.
On 4-5, Jackson let #83 Reed go free again for an 18yd TD.
He just stood there waiting for Reed to get pass him, then started to chase.
(Either he was on drug or he got some money from the bookies, LOL!)
The Bills trailed only 31-35 with 2 mins left in the third.

The Oilers went 3 and out again.
Moon's pass was high again to Slaughter on 3rd down.
Almost an INT.
Moon was 2 for 7 and an INT so far in the second half.

A 35yd punt gave the Bills the ball at their 48
On 3rd down, two Oilers got to the pass at the same time.
Al Smith would have had that INT if only Jackson had not jumped into him.
I really think Jackson was wearing the wrong color jersey, LOL!
PUNT

Instead, Moon would be intercepted on the next drive;
He was lucky as Bruce Smith made a rare mistake roughing the passer unecessarily.
Smith didn't need to pull Moon down onto the ground.
Moon almost got intercepted again on the next play.
On 2nd down, Moon had good protection but decided to take off
and ran right into the DE for a sack and a loss of more than 5yds.
He sacked himself.
That proved to be costly.
On 3rd and 10, the pass was way short of the marker.
4yds short to be exact.

Then Montgomery bobbled the snap on the FG try.
The fix was so so fully on.

The Bills would score a TD to lead 38-35 with some good plays.

The Oilers got the ball back at their 28 with 3:08 to go.
They only needed 3 to tie.
They moved the ball well to get a first down at the Bills' 16 with a little over 1:30 to go.
They burned more than 30 secs on the clock before the next snap.
An incomplete pass by Moon, ball way too high for Duncan.
There was a receiver open in the middle who had a good chance to run toward the sideline for a TD.
A 5yd run.
Oilers time-out (they had all 3 left.)
43 secs to go.
Moon then decided to run for 2yds instead of waiting for a receiver to get open.Another bad decision.
The Oilers settled for a FG to tie the score.

Oilers got the ball first in OT.
On 3rd and 3, Moon had several receivers open.
He could have thrown it to Duncan on the sideline,
but he decided to throw over a DB to Givens on the inside route.
The DB caught Givens' heel but they probably called it accidental contact?
A bad non-call.
The ball went directly into the hands of #37 Odomes who was in failure mode of covering Duncan.
The safe throw was to Duncan on the outside; he couldn't me more wide open.The RB was also open out of the backfield.

That gave the ball to the Bills at our 20.
An easy FG.
Game, set, and match!

Double Barrel
10-08-2009, 04:58 PM
Good post, 76, and perhaps it comes down to perception.

IIRC, it wasn't an onside kick. The wind was pretty wild that day, and Del Greco ended up kicking a ball that was falling off the tee from the wind. Moon doesn't do kickoffs.

When you mention "The D was still playing very well" in your post, you do realize that the Bills just scored 14 on the Oilers? I'm not sure how that constitutes "playing very well" in your book, but giving up two TDs in a matter of 6 minutes is not that great to me. BTW, Moon doesn't play defense, either.

And speaking of the D, you do realize that by this point they are playing a SECOND STRING QB and a SECOND STRING RB? I'm not impressed with a D that cannot protect a 32 point lead with two key positions being played by backups.

Now, like I said, Moon deserves part of the blame for throwing picks, but the bigger question is WHY were the Oilers even throwing the ball into a strong wind? Moon was not the OC, and he's not responsible for the lack of a TE or FB on the roster so they could try to run the ball. It's pathetic that Gilbride was throwing the ball at that point.

And what about Montgomery fumbling the snap for a chip shot FG? I guess that's Moon's fault, as well?

BTW, Moon only threw TWO picks the entire day. Are you really trying to make the case that the entire TEAM MELTDOWN is on the shoulders of ONE man? Seriously, like TB said earlier, it was a total team fail. It is misguided to lay that loss on one man, especially the man that helped put 28 points on the board in the first half.

Obviously, we can just agree to disagree, but most old Oilers fans place the blame on soft defense *cough*prevent!*cough* and bad luck.

76Texan
10-08-2009, 05:06 PM
Good post, 76, and perhaps it comes down to perception.

IIRC, it wasn't an onside kick. The wind was pretty wild that day, and Del Greco ended up kicking a ball that was falling off the tee from the wind. Moon doesn't do kickoffs.

When you mention "The D was still playing very well" in your post, you do realize that the Bills just scored 14 on the Oilers? I'm not sure how that constitutes "playing very well" in your book, but giving up two TDs in a matter of 6 minutes is not that great to me. BTW, Moon doesn't play defense, either.

And speaking of the D, you do realize that by this point they are playing a SECOND STRING QB and a SECOND STRING RB? I'm not impressed with a D that cannot protect a 32 point lead with two key positions being played by backups.

Now, like I said, Moon deserves part of the blame for throwing picks, but the bigger question is WHY were the Oilers even throwing the ball into a strong wind? Moon was not the OC, and he's not responsible for the lack of a TE or FB on the roster so they could try to run the ball. It's pathetic that Gilbride was throwing the ball at that point.

And what about Montgomery fumbling the snap for a chip shot FG? I guess that's Moon's fault, as well?

BTW, Moon only threw TWO picks the entire day. Are you really trying to make the case that the entire TEAM MELTDOWN is on the shoulders of ONE man? Seriously, like TB said earlier, it was a total team fail. It is misguided to lay that loss on one man, especially the man that helped put 28 points on the board in the first half.

Obviously, we can just agree to disagree, but most old Oilers fans place the blame on soft defense *cough*prevent!*cough* and bad luck.
All I said was "more" on Moon, not "how much more".

One TD was a bad call by the ref.
The other one was with short field for the Bills (as were most of their TDs and the winning FG) and only after the D had played its heart out.

The O needs to stay on the field some to give the D a breather now and then.
You can't expect them to keep going out there.
And really, there was only one bad player on Defense that stunk up the whole joint and put the bad rap on the entire D.

Double Barrel
10-08-2009, 05:17 PM
The O needs to stay on the field some to give the D a breather now and then.

I do not disagree with you, but how do you do that with a finesse passing offense going into a strong wind?

Of course, the obvious answer is run the ball. Unfortunately, that team lacked the players and playbook to run ball control offense.

I'm not the biggest fan of Moon, to be honest, but I'm not sure how many QBs would have been able to run a passing offense into the wind against a good defense that knows you are going to throw the ball 90% of time.

76Texan
10-08-2009, 05:23 PM
I do not disagree with you, but how do you do that with a finesse passing offense going into a strong wind?

Of course, the obvious answer is run the ball. Unfortunately, that team lacked the players and playbook to run ball control offense.

I'm not the biggest fan of Moon, to be honest, but I'm not sure how many QBs would have been able to run a passing offense into the wind against a good defense that knows you are going to throw the ball 90% of time.

All the more reasons for Moon to go with the short and safe pass!
He had them receivers open.
Moon played a very bad second half and was one of the main reasons we lost.
The second main reason was obviously Jackson on Defense.

All I'm saying.

Yankee_In_TX
10-12-2009, 01:03 PM
We are winless under Kubiak when we run the ball less than 25 times a game, how about that for a stat?

Andre has a good comment on the broadcast just after the game - this stat is uber inflated because in most of those games we HAD to pass a lot because we were trying to come from behind.