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View Full Version : Horse collar pt. 3


DerekLee1
10-05-2009, 09:43 AM
So I've mentioned a couple of times how the horse collar rule on QB's is ridiculous, and that it's just as dangerous IN the pocket as it is anywhere else on the field. It's happened to Schaub twice this season with no call. Matt Stafford is now injured because of - what else? - a horse-collar tackle in the pocket.

I really think this needs to be addressed, and sooner rather than later. As defenses start to realize those horse-callar tackles are not going to be called, you'll see it more and more, until someone's career is destroyed with a nasty injury.

bah007
10-05-2009, 01:14 PM
So I've mentioned a couple of times how the horse collar rule on QB's is ridiculous, and that it's just as dangerous IN the pocket as it is anywhere else on the field. It's happened to Schaub twice this season with no call. Matt Stafford is now injured because of - what else? - a horse-collar tackle in the pocket.

I really think this needs to be addressed, and sooner rather than later. As defenses start to realize those horse-callar tackles are not going to be called, you'll see it more and more, until someone's career is destroyed with a nasty injury.

I agree with everything you said except this part.

Defenders aren't going for the collar in the hopes of injuring somebody. They are going for it out of desperation.

When it comes down to it, if the defender has to decide between reaching for the collar and letting the guy get away there is only one choice. No matter what the rule is.

DerekLee1
10-05-2009, 04:09 PM
I agree with everything you said except this part.

Defenders aren't going for the collar in the hopes of injuring somebody. They are going for it out of desperation.

When it comes down to it, if the defender has to decide between reaching for the collar and letting the guy get away there is only one choice. No matter what the rule is.

That's my point. You don't see anyone - even Roy Williams - reaching for a collar to stop a breakaway runner anymore, because the penalty is too severe. Even in desperation, if there's a 15-yard penalty at risk in the pocket, you can bet defenses won't be reaching for a collar.

silvrhand
10-05-2009, 04:16 PM
That's my point. You don't see anyone - even Roy Williams - reaching for a collar to stop a breakaway runner anymore, because the penalty is too severe. Even in desperation, if there's a 15-yard penalty at risk in the pocket, you can bet defenses won't be reaching for a collar.

I'm sorry but all these QB's get more and more protection each year, did you see the NE game where one fell at Brady's legs and was called for 15 yards? It wasn't intentional.

There needs to be a 5 and 15 yard penalty for this, much like a face mask. You have two typically 250-300lb guys going at it at neckbreaking speed and sometimes you can't see the QB so you reach out to try to get a hold of him, and it happens. Look at the size the QB's are these days, Ben Rothlisberger is a perfect example, how many times does he shake off a tackle, so you really have to put a lick on him and wrap up to get him down.

As QB's get bigger and stronger these rules are frustrating more and more to the Defensive players. Look at the Raven/Patriots games, I can't even believe one of those calls they got the DL was shoved and fell on Tom Brady's foot and he got a 15 yard penalty?

Come on put em in a dress already.

DerekLee1
10-05-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm sorry but all these QB's get more and more protection each year, did you see the NE game where one fell at Brady's legs and was called for 15 yards? It wasn't intentional.

There needs to be a 5 and 15 yard penalty for this, much like a face mask. You have two typically 250-300lb guys going at it at neckbreaking speed and sometimes you can't see the QB so you reach out to try to get a hold of him, and it happens. Look at the size the QB's are these days, Ben Rothlisberger is a perfect example, how many times does he shake off a tackle, so you really have to put a lick on him and wrap up to get him down.

As QB's get bigger and stronger these rules are frustrating more and more to the Defensive players. Look at the Raven/Patriots games, I can't even believe one of those calls they got the DL was shoved and fell on Tom Brady's foot and he got a 15 yard penalty?

Come on put em in a dress already.

Hitting a QB is one thing. Yanking them - or anyone - down by the back of the collar while their legs are under them is a completely different story. You want to talk about "putting a dress on the quarterbacks" when this one rule in particular allows ONLY QB's to be taken down this way? Going after anyone's knees and yanking anyone around by the head or collar is too dangerous even for the NFL.

bah007
10-05-2009, 04:22 PM
That's my point. You don't see anyone - even Roy Williams - reaching for a collar to stop a breakaway runner anymore, because the penalty is too severe. Even in desperation, if there's a 15-yard penalty at risk in the pocket, you can bet defenses won't be reaching for a collar.

You never see it much to begin with. The only reason it became a big deal is because Terrell Owens got injured being tackled this way. The rule was a knee-jerk reaction to a star player going down much like the other new rule is because of what happened to Brady last year.

I personally guarantee you that if a safety lets a guy go by for a TD instead of taking him down with a collar tackle he will get his ass pulled right off the field. How is a 15 yard penalty more of a risk than a TD?

bah007
10-05-2009, 04:23 PM
Hitting a QB is one thing. Yanking them - or anyone - down by the back of the collar while their legs are under them is a completely different story. You want to talk about "putting a dress on the quarterbacks" when this one rule in particular allows ONLY QB's to be taken down this way? Going after anyone's knees and yanking anyone around by the head or collar is too dangerous even for the NFL.

Maybe we should bring that one to the rules committee? No more chop blocks or DBs hitting Brandon Jacobs below the waist.

DerekLee1
10-05-2009, 04:28 PM
You never see it much to begin with. The only reason it became a big deal is because Terrell Owens got injured being tackled this way. The rule was a knee-jerk reaction to a star player going down much like the other new rule is because of what happened to Brady last year.

I personally guarantee you that if a safety lets a guy go by for a TD instead of taking him down with a collar tackle he will get his ass pulled right off the field. How is a 15 yard penalty more of a risk than a TD?

This isn't the NBA. This is a contact sport. You don't foul on purpose to stop a score when it could end someone's career. Anyone who does is a thug, and coaches wouldn't stand for it. Well, except for Wade Phillips, who tolerated it from Roy Williams for a couple of years before he seemed to suddenly stop.

silvrhand
10-05-2009, 04:31 PM
Hitting a QB is one thing. Yanking them - or anyone - down by the back of the collar while their legs are under them is a completely different story. You want to talk about "putting a dress on the quarterbacks" when this one rule in particular allows ONLY QB's to be taken down this way? Going after anyone's knees and yanking anyone around by the head or collar is too dangerous even for the NFL.

The NFL is dangerous, you have 300lb athletes in basically body armor running into each other. Things are going to happen, and the horse collar rule was created to stop Roy Williams from Jerking down players.

Now they have encompassed it to just about any tackle from behind even if it's just a jersey.

I still think they need a 5 yard and 15 yard version of it.

bah007
10-05-2009, 04:32 PM
This isn't the NBA. This is a contact sport. You don't foul on purpose to stop a score when it could end someone's career. Anyone who does is a thug, and coaches wouldn't stand for it. Well, except for Wade Phillips, who tolerated it from Roy Williams for a couple of years before he seemed to suddenly stop.

LOL bullshit. If you don't tackle that guy you lose your job. It's not done with the intention to injure anybody. Pretty much the only time anybody grabs the collar is when it is the only thing they can reach. Those types of tackles will not stop no matter what the risk of penalty is.

Those guys have been conditioned to get the ball carrier down at all costs. Would you like to avoid a penalty? Of course. If you knew you were gonna get beat would you grab a facemask or a collar to avoid giving up the points? You better believe it, unless you want your ass on the bench.

Are there headhunters in the NFL? Yes, I think so. But there is no defense for the clowns like that. If you make a rule for this, they will go after something else. It's a collision sport and sometimes people get hurt. It's not always on purpose.

HouSportsWriter
10-05-2009, 07:47 PM
It's not done with the intention to injure anybody..

i can say that is not true becuase when the titans 1st came with vy i swear they wanted to kill matt...


but i get your point =p

V3rm0nt3r
10-05-2009, 08:04 PM
i can say that is not true becuase when the titans 1st came with vy i swear they wanted to kill matt...


but i get your point =p

clarify what game you're talking about.

DerekLee1
10-05-2009, 09:05 PM
I still think they need a 5 yard and 15 yard version of it.

This I would agree with. An intentional and unintentional. Intentional: Jags d-lineman yanks down Schaub from behind as Schaub runs out of the pocket and toward the sideline. Unintentional: Mario reaches and to make a tackle and grabs jersey (not collar) and yanks MJD down.

ObsiWan
10-06-2009, 02:10 AM
This isn't the NBA. This is a contact sport. You don't foul on purpose to stop a score when it could end someone's career. Anyone who does is a thug, and coaches wouldn't stand for it. Well, except for Wade Phillips, who tolerated it from Roy Williams for a couple of years before he seemed to suddenly stop.

No it isn't. Basketball is a contact sport.
Football, like ice hockey, is now, and always has been, a COLLISION sport.

TimeKiller
10-06-2009, 07:24 AM
I'm sorry but all these QB's get more and more protection each year, did you see the NE game where one fell at Brady's legs and was called for 15 yards? It wasn't intentional.
Ray Lewis' post game interview was hilarious. That's a man, why can't he get hit? Like us?

There needs to be a 5 and 15 yard penalty for this, much like a face mask. You have two typically 250-300lb guys going at it at neckbreaking speed and sometimes you can't see the QB so you reach out to try to get a hold of him, and it happens.

Neck breaking speed eh? Yeah, no reason to uphold this rule hahaha....

DexmanC
10-06-2009, 07:36 AM
You never see it (horsecollar in the pocket)
much to begin with. The only reason it became a big deal is because Terrell Owens got injured being tackled this way. The rule was a knee-jerk reaction to a star player going down much like the other new rule is because of what happened to Brady last year.

I personally guarantee you that if a safety lets a guy go by for a TD instead of taking him down with a collar tackle he will get his ass pulled right off the field. How is a 15 yard penalty more of a risk than a TD?

Matthew Stafford had his knee blown out by a horse collar tackle in the pocket Sunday.
It happens more often than is admitted.

silvrhand
10-06-2009, 08:01 AM
Matthew Stafford had his knee blown out by a horse collar tackle in the pocket Sunday.
It happens more often than is admitted.

He pulled him down by the jersey, and he tried to fight out of it. That was "not" a horse collar.

Bring back the tear away jerseys?

bah007
10-06-2009, 08:03 AM
Matthew Stafford had his knee blown out by a horse collar tackle in the pocket Sunday.
It happens more often than is admitted.

He didn't blow out his knee. He suffered a subluxation of the kneecap, which is a minor dislocation.

It's also a common injury for Stafford. This is the third one he has suffered since high school. And only one of them came from a horse collar tackle.

bah007
10-06-2009, 08:05 AM
Look, I hate seeing guys get injured. But I also hate to see knee-jerk reactions to those injuries by those in charge. Football is a rough sport and sometimes guys just get hurt.

Rock Slamdance
10-06-2009, 01:34 PM
This isn't the NBA. This is a contact sport. You don't foul on purpose to stop a score when it could end someone's career. Anyone who does is a thug, and coaches wouldn't stand for it. Well, except for Wade Phillips, who tolerated it from Roy Williams for a couple of years before he seemed to suddenly stop.

Roy Williams still does it for the Bengals. the guy did it under Parcells, too.

Just a guy who takes bad angles and has poor technique.

DocBar
10-06-2009, 01:34 PM
He pulled him down by the jersey, and he tried to fight out of it. That was "not" a horse collar.

Bring back the tear away jerseys? Earl Campbell got a ton of yards with the old tear away jersey. You might be on to something here....