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View Full Version : Mike Lombardi thinks the Texans need to start over


Mr. White
10-02-2009, 09:29 AM
Looks like the national media is talking about the Texans now. Be careful what you wish for.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Tavern-talk-Texans-need-to-start-over.html

Owner Bob McNair has been very patient. He initially hired Charley Casserly as general manager and gave him all the power. When that went downhill, he hired the coach and gave him all the power. So what does he do now? Heís done A and heís done B. Whatís next?

Next is to hire someone who can bring a plan and an infrastructure to the team, someone who can find players and develop them and who knows what it takes to win in the NFL. Hire someone who can interview a coach, who can talk football on an intellectual basis with the head coach, and split their powers ó much like the New York Giants successfully do. Give the coach the power to be the coach and give the general manager the power to be the general manager, and make sure both of them are smart, experienced and well-versed in what it takes to win -- but might not be best friends.

Some of the ideas in this article sound pretty familiar.

Texan_Bill
10-02-2009, 09:54 AM
He (Mike Lombardi) was just on 1560. I liked the way he referred to our defense as "friendly".

Honoring Earl 34
10-02-2009, 10:03 AM
He (Mike Lombardi) was just on 1560. I liked the way he referred to our defense as "friendly".

We could call the defense "The Casper" defense . They don't won't to scare people , they want to be friends .

noxiousdog
10-02-2009, 10:04 AM
I like listening to Mike Lombardi, but if he was such a smart football guy, he wouldn't be in the media now. I'd even give him the benefit of the doubt that he was smart enough to realize that he knew what he didn't know and left it to better personnel guys than he, but he doesn't really come off that way.

HoustonFrog
10-02-2009, 10:12 AM
I can't fault this article. It's true. They do depend on friends of friends and many picks have been random. I do feel there is this "in limbo" feel to how they want to do things. It always scares me when I see teams make some big changes during the season...simplify defense, etc, etc. It means you are making plans on the fly. I just don't get an established "here is what we are going to do" from year to year.

Second Honeymoon
10-02-2009, 10:13 AM
I like listening to Mike Lombardi, but if he was such a smart football guy, he wouldn't be in the media now. I'd even give him the benefit of the doubt that he was smart enough to realize that he knew what he didn't know and left it to better personnel guys than he, but he doesn't really come off that way.

wrong. he worked for Al Davis and was fired for not toeing the line and wanting to take JaMarcus Russell. since the Raiders let him go, they haven't done squat and have had horrible drafts. he is now an entrepeneur and has started a very successful football website.

if he wanted a job in the league, he could have it. oh and he works for the NFL anyway as an analyst. he is in a good place.

McNair needs to wake up and fire Kubiak and Bush's sorry asses.

texanfan2002114
10-02-2009, 10:19 AM
Michael Lombardi is an ass! He is the same GM who traded Randy Moss for a 4th round pick to NE. He said that Moss couldn't run anymore and the following season Moss went off for 98 rec 1493 yrds and a huge number of 23 TDS!!!

He knows crap about building an NFL Franchise. Thats like me trying to tell a firefighter how to put out a fire because I've seen other firefighters doing it successfully!

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 10:21 AM
Michael Lombardi is an ass! He is the same GM who traded Randy Moss for a 4th round pick to NE. He said that Moss couldn't run anymore and the following season Moss went off for 98 rec 1493 yrds and a huge number of 23 TDS!!!

He knows crap about building an NFL Franchise. Thats like me trying to tell a firefighter how to put out a fire because I've seen other firefighters doing it successfully!

I agree with you that he was wrong on Moss. It wasn't that he couldn't run, it's that he wouldn't run in Oakland.

Now, word's getting out that he's doing the same in NE.

He got the Raiders to the Super Bowl as a GM. Sounds like credibility to me.

Texans_Chick
10-02-2009, 10:32 AM
Mike Lombardi is wrong in his analysis of Texans history.

Casserly didn't have all the power. Casserly did do some idiotic things that Capers wanted (like the Babin pick). Capers got his buds in the coaching staff too.

The problem with that scenario was that Casserly often picked players that Capers didn't like and Capers eventually stopped playing them, and played the players that he wanted.

Ultimately, what Lombardi seems to be saying is get better football people in your organization, but he shouldn't be using the past to say what the present is. Kubiak doesn't have all the power, but it is certainly not a strong GM situation where Smith is in a great position to challenge him with an extensive background in the NFL.

Besides, Lombardi calls two of our QBs Schwab and Orsowski. Like he knows jack crap about the Texans.

The best organizations have knowledgeable GMs who are able to work with their head coach to put together an organization where the coaches work well together. Palmer-Capers was a match that wasn't going to work for example.

El Tejano
10-02-2009, 10:34 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe the front office and many of us on this board approved the hiring of Kubiak and Smith because they came from a winning organization that knows what it takes to win. That was the whole meat and potatoes of it. They came from Denver who had the best winning percentage than any other sports franchise. Right?

Lombardi fails to do his research in that and to me that just says he's trying to get Smith fired with hopes of landing the job with us.

nunusguy
10-02-2009, 10:37 AM
The problems in Houston donít all rest at Kubiakís feet. This is a structural organizational problem that stems from having too many friends of friends and not enough quality.
************************************************** ***
That's the most interesting, easily the most provokative comment in his story. I wish he would have expanded a bit on this, but maybe that's why he didn't ?
Lombardi was not on the "this is the Texans year for the playoff" bandwagon
at the start of this year with a lot of others, and so far with their 1-2 start
he looks like the guy who was right. But the season is of course far from over.

texanfan2002114
10-02-2009, 10:40 AM
wrong. he worked for Al Davis and was fired for not toeing the line and wanting to take JaMarcus Russell. since the Raiders let him go, they haven't done squat and have had horrible drafts. he is now an entrepeneur and has started a very successful football website.

if he wanted a job in the league, he could have it. oh and he works for the NFL anyway as an analyst. he is in a good place.

McNair needs to wake up and fire Kubiak and Bush's sorry asses.

No he can't, thats why he doesn't!

"Lombardi has also contacted several teams around the NFL seeking out potential jobs but with no luck."

http://oak.scout.com/2/642772.html

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 10:40 AM
Kubiak doesn't have all the power, but it is certainly not a strong GM situation where Smith is in a great position to challenge him with an extensive background in the NFL.


Is there any proof of that?

Because it sure looks like it's the case to me. He worked for a guy in Shanahan that called all the shots in Denver. I don't see any evidence that he didn't bring the Shanahan blueprint with him. The coaching staff hires have his fingerprints all over them.

The only thing I know for sure that Smith does is negotiates contracts and holds himself up a positive example to players.

Texans_Chick
10-02-2009, 10:44 AM
Is there any proof of that?

Because it sure looks like it's the case to me. He worked for a guy in Shanahan that called all the shots in Denver. I don't see any evidence that he didn't bring the Shanahan blueprint with him. The coaching staff hires have his fingerprints all over them.

The only thing I know for sure that Smith does is negotiates contracts and holds himself up a positive example to players.

Smith says they don't always agree.

But even if Smith is in the role of "I'm the man" GM, it's not like he has more NFL experience that Kubiak to truly challenge what Kubiak wants to do. If Kubiak says I need X, why would Smith say anything different.

Mr teX
10-02-2009, 10:47 AM
not really... i mean most coaches in the league hire guys they are friends with, this is nothing new. Almost every coach in the league has done or does this. Tony Dungy recounts in his book the process by which he hired his staff in TB and Indy, they were all his friends in some capacity. Parcells is notorious for doing this as well. One of the things i hate about the NBA is that teams are constantly hiring these re-treads & they don't really look for new young guys. I seriously doubt you guys would be questioning his hiring of guys he's friends with if we were successful. The bottom line is that every head coach/coordinator was also once one of the lower-tier coaches somewhere.

The fact that Kubiak gave Smith/Bush a shot because they're friends isn't exactly anything different than what other guys have done.

Maddict5
10-02-2009, 10:47 AM
.

if he wanted a job in the league, he could have it. oh and he works for the NFL anyway as an analyst. he is in a good place.

McNair needs to wake up and fire Kubiak and Bush's sorry asses.

please :rolleyes:

he's admitted himself on Bill Simmons podcast that he'd love to be a gm again but cant get a job as one in the nfl anymore but he doesnt mind because he likes the media work too.

and i must say im also quite shocked at the radical changes you propose. you're that last person id expect to post that :rolley.....oh wait ive used that smilie already

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 10:48 AM
FYI, I brought this same subject (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56014) up about a year ago.

Interesting to look at the thread in retrospect.

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 10:50 AM
It's also pretty funny that a lot of these posts attack Lombardi without addressing one damn word that he says in the article.

Mr teX
10-02-2009, 10:55 AM
this is the part i addressed in my post about what he said...


"The problems in Houston don’t all rest at Kubiak’s feet. This is a structural organizational problem that stems from having too many friends of friends and not enough quality."

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 11:01 AM
this is the part i addressed in my post about what he said...


"The problems in Houston donít all rest at Kubiakís feet. This is a structural organizational problem that stems from having too many friends of friends and not enough quality."

And I'm not talking about what you posted.

I'm talking about the "Lombardi doesn't know anything about football because he got fired" take. It's like saying "Jimmy Johnson doesn't know anything about football because he got fired."

texanfan2002114
10-02-2009, 11:17 AM
It's also pretty funny that a lot of these posts attack Lombardi without addressing one damn word that he says in the article.

I agree with you that he was wrong on Moss. It wasn't that he couldn't run, it's that he wouldn't run in Oakland.

Now, word's getting out that he's doing the same in NE.

He got the Raiders to the Super Bowl as a GM. Sounds like credibility to me.

I listened to him for 45 minutes on 1560 and have listened to him before on NFLN. The guy is an ass! He didn't build the team that went to the Super Bowl. That was Bruce Allen!

Its just like Tim Purpura being the GM of the Astros the year after Gerry Hunsicker left. Purpura didn't build that team. He rode Hunsicker's coat tails!

The Raiders went into the tank the year Bruce Allen left and Lombardi took over. So I won't pick anything out of the article to argue about because he doesn't know CRAP!!! Ask Raiders fans who they want back more, Bruce Allen or Lombardi!

Honoring Earl 34
10-02-2009, 11:18 AM
The Texan's have a lot of nepotism in their organization . I also believe they are burdened with an image the owner wants a Texan player to be .

To me , we have extremely in inexperienced coaches and average talent but the marketing is top notch . So the question is ... do we have talent that's not being coached up or we've missed on players the last three years and nobody could coach them up or both .

We have four OL coaches but can't run . When Gibbs was brought in here , we thought we would run all day long ... what happened . The Texans have drafted and signed FA's in the secondary plus changed coaches and still stink . We've drafted DL high and low but none ( except Mario ) pan out . We've had three DL coaches and still can't get the QB .

In the end I think we have a nicey nicey organization , where the fellows know after the game their going to get their juice box and Teddy Grahams ... win or lose . They should have come down on Dunta for the shoe thing plus they have a team that has been put together with not much fire .

Cure ... bring in a demanding coach who's passionate and will settle for nothing less than the best . Bring in bigger players in the middle OL/DL along with safeties that can run and hit . The OL ... I think has the OT's , maybe a C in Caldwell ... they need roadgrader guards ... hell with the ZBS . On defense this team would be so much better if they had Gary Walker and Seth Payne at DT ( I know , their old ) . Ooops the exterminators here ... gotta go .

Runner
10-02-2009, 11:21 AM
Cure ... bring in a demanding coach who's passionate and will settle for nothing less than the best . Bring in bigger players in the middle OL/DL along with safeties that can run and hit . The OL ... I think has the OT's , maybe a C in Caldwell ... they need roadgrader guards ... hell with the ZBS . On defense this team would be so much better if they had Gary Walker and Seth Payne at DT ( I know , their old ) . Ooops the exterminators here ... gotta go .

i.e. Rebuild

texanfan2002114
10-02-2009, 11:23 AM
And I'm not talking about what you posted.

I'm talking about the "Lombardi doesn't know anything about football because he got fired" take. It's like saying "Jimmy Johnson doesn't know anything about football because he got fired."

Thats a stupid comment! Your proving my point! Jimmy Johnson built and won Super Bowls with HIS teams that HE built!! As a matter of fact, the Cowpokes won a Super Bowl with Jimmy's team after he was fired and haven't won another playoff game since slef proclaimed JERRY JONES SUPER OWNER SUPER GM started with player personal.

badboy
10-02-2009, 11:24 AM
We could call the defense "The Casper" defense . They don't won't to scare people , they want to be friends .Sort of like you know it is there you just can't see it?

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 11:30 AM
Thats a dumb ass comment! Your proving my point! Jimmy Johnson built and won Super Bowls with HIS teams that HE built!! As a matter of fact, the Cowpokes won a Super Bowl with Jimmy's team after he was fired and haven't won another playoff game since slef proclaimed JERRY JONES SUPER OWNER SUPER GM started with player personal.

You still haven't addressed anything in the article. You're proving my point.

I don't have anything against you personally, so I won't use words like "dumb-ass" describing a take that I don't agree with.

Mr teX
10-02-2009, 11:35 AM
The Texan's have a lot of nepotism in their organization . I also believe they are burdened with an image the owner wants a Texan player to be .

To me , we have extremely in inexperienced coaches and average talent but the marketing is top notch . So the question is ... do we have talent that's not being coached up or we've missed on players the last three years and nobody could coach them up or both .

We have four OL coaches but can't run . When Gibbs was brought in here , we thought we would run all day long ... what happened . The Texans have drafted and signed FA's in the secondary plus changed coaches and still stink . We've drafted DL high and low but none ( except Mario ) pan out . We've had three DL coaches and still can't get the QB .


In the end I think we have a nicey nicey organization , where the fellows know after the game their going to get their juice box and Teddy Grahams ... win or lose . They should have come down on Dunta for the shoe thing plus they have a team that has been put together with not much fire .

Cure ... bring in a demanding coach who's passionate and will settle for nothing less than the best . Bring in bigger players in the middle OL/DL along with safeties that can run and hit . The OL ... I think has the OT's , maybe a C in Caldwell ... they need roadgrader guards ... hell with the ZBS . On defense this team would be so much better if they had Gary Walker and Seth Payne at DT ( I know , their old ) . Ooops the exterminators here ... gotta go .


All of our coaches have had success elsewhere, which tells me all i need to know. The common denominator in all of our suckiness is the players & the talent level. The coaching contributes to that, but as someone said on the radio other day, you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

texanfan2002114
10-02-2009, 11:40 AM
You still haven't addressed anything in the article. You're proving my point.


Quote:
Owner Bob McNair has been very patient. He initially hired Charley Casserly as general manager and gave him all the power. When that went downhill, he hired the coach and gave him all the power. So what does he do now? Heís done A and heís done B. Whatís next?

Next is to hire someone who can bring a plan and an infrastructure to the team, someone who can find players and develop them and who knows what it takes to win in the NFL. Hire someone who can interview a coach, who can talk football on an intellectual basis with the head coach, and split their powers ó much like the New York Giants successfully do. Give the coach the power to be the coach and give the general manager the power to be the general manager, and make sure both of them are smart, experienced and well-versed in what it takes to win -- but might not be best friends.


What does Michael Lombardi know what it takes to win in this league?? This is the same guy who hired Lane Kiffen to be his head coach!

Vinny
10-02-2009, 11:43 AM
Pabst Steel Blue Ribbon (http://fansided.com/2009/10/01/a-beer-for-every-nfl-team/).

HOU-TEX
10-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Michael Lombardi is an ass! He is the same GM who traded Randy Moss for a 4th round pick to NE. He said that Moss couldn't run anymore and the following season Moss went off for 98 rec 1493 yrds and a huge number of 23 TDS!!!

He knows crap about building an NFL Franchise. Thats like me trying to tell a firefighter how to put out a fire because I've seen other firefighters doing it successfully!

And where is that 4th round selection today? The Raiders cut him before the season started. Who the heck cuts a 4th round pick? Oh....nevermind.

So, they basically gave Moss to NE. Hey, who wouldn't...:rolleyes:

BTW, Slade Norris was that 4th round pick. Cool name

HoustonFrog
10-02-2009, 11:44 AM
It's also pretty funny that a lot of these posts attack Lombardi without addressing one damn word that he says in the article.

Agree. I made the comment on page 1. No matter what you say, what he said is pretty close to true about hiring friends, etc. Attacking the messenger doesn't make his true statements go away.

Texecutioner
10-02-2009, 11:47 AM
Everything Lombardi said is completely true. At some point it would be nice if some people in here could take there blue and red colored glasses off and see that this Smithiak experiment has been a failure and this ship isn't sailing to any post season for the 4th year now.

The Texans organization has been an organization that has hired friends of friends, and yeah that might have worked for other HC's and GM's, but it clearly hasn't worked here. Kubiak's Denver Broncos blue print hasn't worked. I'm so sick of people saying "Kubiak knows how to win." He has never won anything as a HC. Being a HC and an OC to a HC who won with John Elway as their QB doesn't mean that he was ever going to be successful as a HC. Kubiak was a great candidate on paper when the Texans hired him, but he hasn't made anything happen, and this team isn't going anywhere this year either.

What many fans of the Texans don't realize is that most people from outside of the Texan fan base still laugh at our franchise and put us right there with the Lions. We've never had a winning team in one season and I'm sick and tired of it. It's time to try a new experiment with a proven HC, or hell find the newest hot coordinator on the block after this season is up and give them a try.

I'm so sick of these slow expectations and "lets wait and see how his Kubiak does and give him time" approach.

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 11:52 AM
What does Michael Lombardi know what it takes to win in this league?? This is the same guy who hired Lane Kiffen to be his head coach!

Hiring Lane Kiffin, riding coattails, what he said about wanting to get hired again, etc. still doesn't have anything to do with what he says in the article.

He's still got credibility on the matter by virtue of being on the inside of an organization. The guy knows how good NFL teams run because he's been in them before.

Runner
10-02-2009, 11:59 AM
All of our coaches have had success elsewhere, which tells me all i need to know. The common denominator in all of our suckiness is the players & the talent level. The coaching contributes to that, but as someone said on the radio other day, you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.


What does this say about the awesome Smithiak talent evaluating machine? I guess all those hidden gems were hidden turds.


In Kubes We Trust :rolleyes:

Second Honeymoon
10-02-2009, 11:59 AM
No he can't, thats why he doesn't!

"Lombardi has also contacted several teams around the NFL seeking out potential jobs but with no luck."

http://oak.scout.com/2/642772.html

your linking a random report from a Raiders website? The jumpsuit is a master of propaganda.

for the record, Lombardi is working for the NFL already in the NFL Network and he said today that he is happier doing this because he doesn't have to worry about owners that don't call you at 7am in the morning and say that Jamarcus is an accurate passer and that you don't know what you are talking about and then get fired. Yeah even Casserley can get an NFL analyst job but Lombardi works for the NFL and has his own gig. Casserley has a job with the worst pregame show ever at CBS. Oh man, that show stinks to high heaven.

Lombardi isn't angling for the Houston job. He is on many more markets on radio shows talking football and promoting nationalfootballpost. It's not like he is coming on our radio show because he wants to be the Texans GM. Thats ludicrous.

I don't think hiring a new coach and GM is 'starting over'. It is addressing shortcomings in the organization and moving forward. Look at some of the quick turnarounds that have happened after a coaching change. Having a good head coach is the 2nd most important factor in winning other than having a good QB. Kubiak has done good with the offense, but he has not shown any ability to assemble a quality defense. He is the HC not the OC. If he can't get both jobs done, then find someone who can.

It's the same thing as last year. No urgency. No preparation and intensity.

noxiousdog
10-02-2009, 12:07 PM
Hiring Lane Kiffin, riding coattails, what he said about wanting to get hired again, etc. still doesn't have anything to do with what he says in the article.

He's still got credibility on the matter by virtue of being on the inside of an organization. The guy knows how good NFL teams run because he's been in them before.

So have Kubiak and Smith.

His article is accurate in a generic sort of way. "People that are good and experienced should be hired." No kidding. The hard part is to figure out who is good and experienced and whether they can replicate it. The list of guys that have done consistently well with multiple organizations is pretty short.

noxiousdog
10-02-2009, 12:09 PM
Hiring Lane Kiffin, riding coattails, what he said about wanting to get hired again, etc. still doesn't have anything to do with what he says in the article.

He's still got credibility on the matter by virtue of being on the inside of an organization. The guy knows how good NFL teams run because he's been in them before.

your linking a random report from a Raiders website? The jumpsuit is a master of propaganda.

for the record, Lombardi is working for the NFL already in the NFL Network and he said today that he is happier doing this because he doesn't have to worry about owners that don't call you at 7am in the morning and say that Jamarcus is an accurate passer and that you don't know what you are talking about and then get fired. Yeah even Casserley can get an NFL analyst job but Lombardi works for the NFL and has his own gig. Casserley has a job with the worst pregame show ever at CBS. Oh man, that show stinks to high heaven.

Lombardi isn't angling for the Houston job. He is on many more markets on radio shows talking football and promoting nationalfootballpost. It's not like he is coming on our radio show because he wants to be the Texans GM. Thats ludicrous.

I don't think hiring a new coach and GM is 'starting over'. It is addressing shortcomings in the organization and moving forward. Look at some of the quick turnarounds that have happened after a coaching change. Having a good head coach is the 2nd most important factor in winning other than having a good QB. Kubiak has done good with the offense, but he has not shown any ability to assemble a quality defense. He is the HC not the OC. If he can't get both jobs done, then find someone who can.

It's the same thing as last year. No urgency. No preparation and intensity.


A radio guy, might, if he's lucky, make 6 figures. An NFL gm clears that in the first 3 months of the year.

Vinny
10-02-2009, 12:10 PM
A radio guy, might, if he's lucky, make 6 figures. An NFL gm clears that in the first 3 months of the year.
there are only 32 of those jobs in the world...are you saying that everyone who isn't a NFL GM is full of it?

Second Honeymoon
10-02-2009, 12:12 PM
I'll take Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden. It makes sense and could be a long term solution. Both have proven they can build winners and are both eager to prove their previous owners wrong. It's obvious Gruden being fired has had a negative effect on the Bucs.

I am not going to rule out Cowher but its pretty hopeful thinking that we could lure him over the Panthers, Skins, and perhaps Cowboys. He has roots in Carolina and the Skins and Cowboys are appealling positions. Schottenheimer is just a little old for my liking and Holmgren says he wouldn't mind coaching on the East Coast. Probably angling for the Skins job. Problem is the Skins job may come available sooner than he would prefer.

noxiousdog
10-02-2009, 12:14 PM
there are only 32 of those jobs in the world...are you saying that everyone who isn't a NFL GM is full of it?

No. I'm saying that I don't think "football people" think Lombardi is as smart as he thinks he is, and that he'd return to GMing in a heartbeat if he could get a job.

Second Honeymoon
10-02-2009, 12:16 PM
A radio guy, might, if he's lucky, make 6 figures. An NFL gm clears that in the first 3 months of the year.

hes not a radio guy. he works for NFL Network and started nationalfootballpost, which is doing extremely well since launch. Ask Marc Cuban how much money you can make on websites and online intellectual properties.

Lombardi is good people and I appreciate his honest opinions and insight

...sorry if he doesn't serve the KoolAid like Vandermeer. Justice is an arsekisser too towards the Texans.

Mr teX
10-02-2009, 12:18 PM
What does this say about the awesome Smithiak talent evaluating machine? I guess all those hidden gems were hidden turds.


In Kubes We Trust :rolleyes:


that's why i said coaching is part of that, but it clearly isn't all of it as some in here would like to believe. They've done decent in the draft, (Brown, Jacoby, Diles, Adibi, Cushing & possibly a few others). IMO, the big failure has been in FA for them. overpaying bums, unwilling to pay for guys who can make a difference.

I will however not lambast them for hiring friends, because every coach does that, for better & for worse.

Runner
10-02-2009, 12:18 PM
there are only 32 of those jobs in the world...are you saying that everyone who isn't a NFL GM is full of it?

And I doubt the 32 best ones are working at any given time.

Texecutioner
10-02-2009, 12:22 PM
I'll take Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden. It makes sense and could be a long term solution. Both have proven they can build winners and are both eager to prove their previous owners wrong. It's obvious Gruden being fired has had a negative effect on the Bucs.

I am not going to rule out Cowher but its pretty hopeful thinking that we could lure him over the Panthers, Skins, and perhaps Cowboys. He has roots in Carolina and the Skins and Cowboys are appealling positions. Schottenheimer is just a little old for my liking and Holmgren says he wouldn't mind coaching on the East Coast. Probably angling for the Skins job. Problem is the Skins job may come available sooner than he would prefer.

What is your deal with John Gruden? After that SB year where he took Tony Dungy's team to the SB where that defense did everything, the entire success he ever had in Tampa was from that same defense year after year. He completely failed to build an offense on that team the same way Kubiak has failed to build a defense here. And Gruden is hated by his players. Just about every player that left Tampa blasted Gruden. I've talked to quite a few Bucs fans that told me a lot of stories about what went on out there that wasn't all over the mainstream media about Gruden and how poorly he managed his players. Gruden is way to stubborn for my liking. The last thing I want to see is Gruden come here and immediately bring in 3 new QB's behind Schuab and tell Schuab to throw 3 TD's every week or he'll be demoted to 2nd string. Gruden thinks he is a mad scientist with QB's, and I don't want a guy like that here. I don't think I've ever heard or seen any player in the NFL confess what a great coach Gruden was and how much they loved playing for him. I've only heard players trash the guy after they go to another team in free agency.

Mr teX
10-02-2009, 12:23 PM
I'll take Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden. It makes sense and could be a long term solution. Both have proven they can build winners and are both eager to prove their previous owners wrong. It's obvious Gruden being fired has had a negative effect on the Bucs.

I am not going to rule out Cowher but its pretty hopeful thinking that we could lure him over the Panthers, Skins, and perhaps Cowboys. He has roots in Carolina and the Skins and Cowboys are appealling positions. Schottenheimer is just a little old for my liking and Holmgren says he wouldn't mind coaching on the East Coast. Probably angling for the Skins job. Problem is the Skins job may come available sooner than he would prefer.


Gruden has built nothing...Bruce Allen built that raiders team he coached before he was traded to TB & Dungy & whomever was the GM for the bucs at that time built the team Gruden won the SB with. The years after that, Gruden had been able to do nothing.

give me Holmgren as head coach if kubes is getting shipped out b/c at least he has done it with 2 different teams..

Second Honeymoon
10-02-2009, 12:23 PM
that's why i said coaching is part of that, but it clearly isn't all of it as some in here would like to believe. They've done decent in the draft, (Brown, Jacoby, Diles, Adibi, Cushing & possibly a few others). IMO, the big failure has been in FA for them. overpaying bums, unwilling to pay for guys who can make a difference.

I will however not lambast them for hiring friends, because every coach does that, for better & for worse.

couldnt agree more

Gruden has done a good job with absolutely no talent at QB. They could never draft early enough to get a new QB and kept on bringing in guys that sucked. Any time he had a decent QB he has won. He won with Gannon and Garcia, geez he even won with Brad Johnson who was the epitome of decent.

For some reason, hiring Gruden seems to me like a good move. I think he will bring some of the things that we are missing. The only time he had problems with players were when they were bad actors like Keyshawn. Ask Sapp and Brooks how much they like Gruden. I would rather have Cowher but its unlikely and I think Gruden is better long term choice than Holmgren. After those guys, Gruden is the best choice. We can't hire Shanahan. That aint gonna happen.

you can hate on my opinion and say Gruden sucks but its a fact that he is a more qualified HC than Kubiak

Texecutioner
10-02-2009, 12:24 PM
couldnt agree more

Agree with both of you. This strictly "build through the draft approach" has been flat out ridiculous.

Vinny
10-02-2009, 12:34 PM
IMO, the big failure has been in FA for them. overpaying bums, unwilling to pay for guys who can make a difference.
Bobby Grier has been at the head of scouting the talent in the NFL since day 1 of this franchise. He's the man behind the decisions that brought us Chucky Clemons, Keith Mitchell, Todd Wade, Robaire Smith, Stacey Mack, Anthony Weaver and every other really awful talent that the other teams didn't want on their rosters. I point this out every year, and every year we sign more stiffs. It's groundhog day.

http://assets.houstontexans.com/uploads/front_office/headshots/thumbs/61.jpg
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/FrontOfficeBio.asp?front_office_id=61

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 12:38 PM
So have Kubiak and Smith.

His article is accurate in a generic sort of way. "People that are good and experienced should be hired." No kidding. The hard part is to figure out who is good and experienced and whether they can replicate it. The list of guys that have done consistently well with multiple organizations is pretty short.

The difference is that Kubiak and Smith don't tell the media jack about how they run an organization. Like it or not, we rely on the media for information. And from what I've seen, this guy has pretty good sources.

And I take something completely different than you take from the article. It's not that "smart people should get hired", it's that "a good organization has checks and balances."

It's pretty obvious that this one doesn't.

False Start
10-02-2009, 12:44 PM
Its just something about Lombardi that bugs me. Hes just not my style. The thing that really bugs me is he still calls Schaub, Swab.... :ok:

Mr. White
10-02-2009, 12:48 PM
Bobby Grier has been at the head of scouting the talent in the NFL since day 1 of this franchise. He's the man behind the decisions that brought us Chucky Clemons, Keith Mitchell, Todd Wade, Robaire Smith, Stacey Mack, Anthony Weaver and every other really awful talent that the other teams didn't want on their rosters. I point this out every year, and every year we sign more stiffs. It's groundhog day.

http://assets.houstontexans.com/uploads/front_office/headshots/thumbs/61.jpg
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/FrontOfficeBio.asp?front_office_id=61

Kind of an obvious question, but how much influence does this guy really have?

Seems to me that the worst he can do is put together crappy reports.

Mr teX
10-02-2009, 12:49 PM
Bobby Grier has been in charge of scouting the talent in the NFL since day 1 of this franchise. He's the man behind the decisions that brought us Chucky Clemons, Keith Mitchell, Todd Wade, Robaire Smith, Stacey Mack, Anthony Weaver and every other really awful talent that the other teams didn't want on their rosters. I point this out every year, and every year we sign more stiffs. It's groundhog day.

http://assets.houstontexans.com/uploads/front_office/headshots/thumbs/61.jpg
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/FrontOfficeBio.asp?front_office_id=61

yeah, i've seen this post from u a number of times...lets all sign a petition calling for this guys job & mail it to mcnair...

Vinny
10-02-2009, 12:54 PM
Kind of an obvious question, but how much influence does this guy really have?

Seems to me that the worst he can do is put together crappy reports.

If he is the guy in charge of "pro talent' and year, after year, after year, your franchise makes a living out of signing people who aren't worth their contract then it kinda gives me a clue that your pro scouting department isn't all that wonderful.
Bobby Grier was tabbed as Houston’s associate director of pro personnel in May 2000. Grier previously held the title of vice president/player personnel for the New England Patriots. He was the guy they fired before the Patriots became a consistently good team.

Double Barrel
10-02-2009, 01:14 PM
I like listening to Mike Lombardi, but if he was such a smart football guy, he wouldn't be in the media now. I'd even give him the benefit of the doubt that he was smart enough to realize that he knew what he didn't know and left it to better personnel guys than he, but he doesn't really come off that way.

"He has worked with a number of the gameís prominent architects, including Bill Walsh, Bill Belichick, Mike Shanahan and Marty Schottenheimer."

He's forgotten more football than most of us will ever know.

Michael Lombardi is an ass! He is the same GM who traded Randy Moss for a 4th round pick to NE. He said that Moss couldn't run anymore and the following season Moss went off for 98 rec 1493 yrds and a huge number of 23 TDS!!!

He knows crap about building an NFL Franchise. Thats like me trying to tell a firefighter how to put out a fire because I've seen other firefighters doing it successfully!

Randy Moss quit on the Raiders. He admitted himself that he takes plays off. It took an organization like the Patriots, a HC like Belichick, and a QB like Brady to inspire him to work harder. However, even as recent as this season (2009), Moss still appears to be taking plays off.

yeah, that Lombardi sure messed up there.... :rolleyes:

Pabst Steel Blue Ribbon (http://fansided.com/2009/10/01/a-beer-for-every-nfl-team/).

lol:

That's hilarious, man!

Bobby Grier has been at the head of scouting the talent in the NFL since day 1 of this franchise. He's the man behind the decisions that brought us Chucky Clemons, Keith Mitchell, Todd Wade, Robaire Smith, Stacey Mack, Anthony Weaver and every other really awful talent that the other teams didn't want on their rosters. I point this out every year, and every year we sign more stiffs. It's groundhog day.

http://assets.houstontexans.com/uploads/front_office/headshots/thumbs/61.jpg
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/FrontOfficeBio.asp?front_office_id=61

ahhhhh, the Face of Failure right there. :dontknowa

Honoring Earl 34
10-02-2009, 01:25 PM
Maybe it's just me but we got off on the wrong foot and still haven't recovered . When the Texans hired Capers , they should have focused on defense and running the ball . They drafted a QB #1 in 2002 in fact most of their picks were offense that year and Sunday ... not one of those picks will be playing . In the Texans first two drafts , some of our fellow members who do the mocks could have done better than the Texans .

The money that this team has pissed away in the free agent market is 2nd to TARP .

ps ... Reliant should sell $1 Pabst as our mascot .

ChampionTexan
10-02-2009, 02:07 PM
If he is the guy in charge of "pro talent' and year, after year, after year, your franchise makes a living out of signing people who aren't worth their contract then it kinda gives me a clue that your pro scouting department isn't all that wonderful.
He was the guy they fired before the Patriots became a consistently good team.

Just curious (and this is a question, not a challenge) - if he is the "Associate" director of Pro Personnel, why is he the guy "in charge", and not Brian Gardner who is the "Director" of Pro Personnel, and Chuck Banker (The Director of Pro Scouting) before that? And if Gardner is his boss, why is he not at least equally to blame?

He may be a common thread, but hasn't there always been somebody above him - in addition to the obvious Owner/GM/HC triumverate?

Vinny
10-02-2009, 02:15 PM
Just curious (and this is a question, not a challenge) - if he is the "Associate" director of Pro Personnel, why is he the guy "in charge", and not Brian Gardner who is the "Director" of Pro Personnel, and Chuck Banker (The Director of Pro Scouting) before that? And if Gardner is his boss, why is he not at least equally to blame?

He may be a common thread, but hasn't there always been somebody above him - in addition to the obvious Owner/GM/HC triumverate?

Gardner deserves blame too, but he has only been here 2 years previously, so I guess Chuck Banker and Mike McCaggnin are gone so I can't put my finger on them. I donno why I'd call the Owner out unless you think that McNair is just a more closeted Jerry Jones? I'm not a fan of Kubiak and Smith and I've posted as much...so there you go. The nutshell complete.

HOU-TEX
10-02-2009, 02:27 PM
Mike Lombardi could give John McClain a run for his money on the amount of chins he has. You could hack both their gobblers off, toss'em on the grill and feed half a country with them suckers.

ChampionTexan
10-02-2009, 02:33 PM
Gardner deserves blame too, but he has only been here 2 years previously, so I guess Chuck Banker and Mike McCaggnin are gone so I can't put my finger on them. I donno why I'd call the Owner out unless you think that McNair is just a more closeted Jerry Jones? I'm not a fan of Kubiak and Smith and I've posted as much...so there you go. The nutshell complete.

Okay, I just think you're targeting a guy who has never been more than a second banana within his own department, and who's seen his boss replaced twice in the previous 8 years. It just kind of sounds like choosing to dwell on reason #39 on the list of the top 50 reasons the Texans have failed so far. Yeah, it may be valid, but is it really worth spending time on?

Double Barrel
10-02-2009, 03:04 PM
Bobby Grier is a common denominator throughout 7+ seasons of suck.

I'm not sure how many other components of the franchise have been here since the beginning. Whatever they are, we should blame them, too. :D

mussop
10-02-2009, 03:05 PM
What is your deal with John Gruden? After that SB year where he took Tony Dungy's team to the SB where that defense did everything, the entire success he ever had in Tampa was from that same defense year after year. He completely failed to build an offense on that team the same way Kubiak has failed to build a defense here. And Gruden is hated by his players. Just about every player that left Tampa blasted Gruden. I've talked to quite a few Bucs fans that told me a lot of stories about what went on out there that wasn't all over the mainstream media about Gruden and how poorly he managed his players. Gruden is way to stubborn for my liking. The last thing I want to see is Gruden come here and immediately bring in 3 new QB's behind Schuab and tell Schuab to throw 3 TD's every week or he'll be demoted to 2nd string. Gruden thinks he is a mad scientist with QB's, and I don't want a guy like that here. I don't think I've ever heard or seen any player in the NFL confess what a great coach Gruden was and how much they loved playing for him. I've only heard players trash the guy after they go to another team in free agency.

:goodpost:

Gruden has built nothing...Bruce Allen built that raiders team he coached before he was traded to TB & Dungy & whomever was the GM for the bucs at that time built the team Gruden won the SB with. The years after that, Gruden had been able to do nothing.

give me Holmgren as head coach if kubes is getting shipped out b/c at least he has done it with 2 different teams..

:perfect10:

Im glad Im not the only one here that doesnt want Gruden.

GP
10-02-2009, 04:06 PM
The thing that makes it a tough "sell" on firing Kubiak is the improvement on the offense.

A.) They pacified Bob by trying to rehabilitate David Carr. Then they cut the guy, and immediately scoop up a 2nd stringer who would have been Atlanta's starter a few months later when Vick's troubles surfaced. Score one for Smithiak finding and getting a QB. And it worked out. So far.

B.) Then, they start producing some good seasons of less sacks (even in David's last season here, the sacks were lowered dramatically). They started moving the ball down the field with the combo of OD, AJ, Walter, and Anderson.

C.) Slaton and Brown were good draft picks, made essentially due to the sliding down in round 1 on draft day. Now we have a running back that's doing pretty well (started off slow this year, but is looking better now).

I am in no way saying that justifies the other woes we have. The HC is responsible for everything. Otherwise, just make your living as an offensive coordinator. Leave the big picture "stuff" to more capable men.

I just don't know if McNair can pull the trigger on firing Kubiak. I think the whole system would have to crash before he would do it. I think he might force Kubiak to fire Frank Bush.

But this is assuming that McNair would spend big bucks to get a GOOD defensive coordinator. And this is assuming that Kubiak would even want a BMOC (Big Man On Campus) who might be his replacement in the future.

I think this team's secrecy with information is intriguing. If they think it keeps everyone from knowing how to beat them, I think they are wasting their time--Because this team is still easy to beat on any Sunday of the season. But what if they do this to hide or protect some higher-up "connected" people whom McNair is in league with and working with...and desiring to keep around?

Some day, I suspect a former Texans person is going to reveal a lot of information that will clue us into the inner workings and the thought process of McNair. And I bet Richard Justice will be in on it.

dtran04
10-02-2009, 05:04 PM
I can get past how this guy just to pronounce Matt Schaub as "Matt Schwab". He did it for a really long time until someone finally told him he sounded stupid.

ATXtexanfan
10-02-2009, 08:12 PM
developing players is our problem like he mentions

b0ng
10-02-2009, 08:20 PM
What came first, the chicken or the egg? Is the offensive line bad or is it the QB? Does the coaching suck or is the talent level really that low? Should we blow it up Al Davis style or let it ride like the Rooney's did with Cowher?

Choices choices choices.

CloakNNNdagger
10-02-2009, 08:48 PM
What came first, the chicken or the egg? Is the offensive line bad or is it the QB? Does the coaching suck or is the talent level really that low? Should we blow it up Al Davis style or let it ride like the Rooney's did with Cowher?

Choices choices choices.

"I choose not to choose"...................Gary Kubiak

Lucky
10-02-2009, 09:16 PM
I don't care what Mike Lombardi says or doesn't say. I say that, if the Texans do not become winners this season, they need to start over.

Thorn
10-02-2009, 09:58 PM
I don't care what Mike Lombardi says or doesn't say. I say that, if the Texans do not become winners this season, they need to start over.


I've seen enough of the clown Lombardi on NFLN. He's nothing but a mouthpiece for current speculation of others. He means nothing and his opinion is nothing.

beerlover
10-02-2009, 10:02 PM
Pabst Steel Blue Ribbon (http://fansided.com/2009/10/01/a-beer-for-every-nfl-team/).

one of the greatest links ever, thanks :barman:

Texans should be St. Arnold Lawnmower Beer http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7qtlrNDgrko/RondcuM2RMI/AAAAAAAAAB0/MxgBr3d54Z0/s320/DSC_0002.JPG.

Served cold, goes down easy & makes you wanting more :)

Texan4Ever
10-02-2009, 10:12 PM
one of the greatest links ever, thanks :barman:

Texans should be St. Arnold Lawnmower Beer http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7qtlrNDgrko/RondcuM2RMI/AAAAAAAAAB0/MxgBr3d54Z0/s320/DSC_0002.JPG.

Served cold, goes down easy & makes you wanting more :)



LOL...:user:

JDizzle
10-02-2009, 10:27 PM
Where's my flowchart?

ObsiWan
10-03-2009, 01:18 AM
Pabst Steel Blue Ribbon (http://fansided.com/2009/10/01/a-beer-for-every-nfl-team/).

Absolutely classic. The author managed to nail all 32 teams. Amazing.

hellbentforfootball
10-03-2009, 02:44 AM
If it's experience you want bring on Marty Ball and Floyd Reese that'll be a nice start..<sighs>

Mr. White
10-03-2009, 02:46 AM
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
There's another thread about that already. It's been going all week.
Is the offensive line bad or is it the QB?
That question got answered when Carr left town and Schaub took over.
Does the coaching suck or is the talent level really that low?
Again, see the chicken and egg thread.
Should we blow it up Al Davis style or let it ride like the Rooney's did with Cowher?
Kubiak doesn't belong in the same conversation as Cowher. He went 11-5 his first year in the league and made the playoffs. Anyone who watched the game back then knew that guy was destined for greatness.

CloakNNNdagger
10-03-2009, 07:39 AM
If it's experience you want bring on Marty Ball and Floyd Reese that'll be a nice start..<sighs>

I believe that Reese is working for the Pats.

Maddict5
10-03-2009, 08:51 AM
"He has worked with a number of the gameís prominent architects, including Bill Walsh, Bill Belichick, Mike Shanahan and Marty Schottenheimer."

He's forgotten more football than most of us will ever know.


well our HC has worked alot more in-depth with many of those listed and it doesnt stop alot of people second guessing him right?

Maddict5
10-03-2009, 09:05 AM
and with regard to talent evaluation, please list me all the organisation that have amassed more talent over the last couple years than us;

standouts: mario, demeco, OD, schaub
good starters: winston, diles (7th rd), duane brown & cushing (might be moving up further after this season) , jacoby's finally playing well, DA (7th rd), slaton, kevin walter (7th rd)
contributing street FA's: deljuan, bulman, briesel (who's quietly having his best season by far), dreessen, leach, chris brown, antonio smith, kevin bentley, andre davis

yeah it hurts that amobi's only been ok at best so far. same with antonio so far. ahman was good when healthy but that wasnt a big contract anyway relatively speaking. weaver was the worst of the bunch by far imo. these misses have been offset by picking up really good mid/low level FA's consistently and every team misses a couple of times. i stilll think we have among the highest strike-rate though

CloakNNNdagger
10-03-2009, 09:35 AM
and with regard to talent evaluation, please list me all the organisation that have amassed more talent over the last couple years than us;

standouts: mario, demeco, OD, schaub
good starters: winston, diles (7th rd), duane brown & cushing (might be moving up further after this season) , jacoby's finally playing well, DA (7th rd), slaton, kevin walter (7th rd)
contributing street FA's: deljuan, bulman, briesel (who's quietly having his best season by far), dreessen, leach, chris brown, antonio smith, kevin bentley, andre davis

yeah it hurts that amobi's only been ok at best so far. same with antonio so far. ahman was good when healthy but that wasnt a big contract anyway relatively speaking. weaver was the worst of the bunch by far imo. these misses have been offset by picking up really good mid/low level FA's consistently and every team misses a couple of times. i stilll think we have among the highest strike-rate though

KRIS or CHRIS???

Second Honeymoon
10-03-2009, 10:54 AM
and with regard to talent evaluation, please list me all the organisation that have amassed more talent over the last couple years than us;

standouts: mario, demeco, OD, schaub
good starters: winston, diles (7th rd), duane brown & cushing (might be moving up further after this season) , jacoby's finally playing well, DA (7th rd), slaton, kevin walter (7th rd)
contributing street FA's: deljuan, bulman, briesel (who's quietly having his best season by far), dreessen, leach, chris brown, antonio smith, kevin bentley, andre davis

yeah it hurts that amobi's only been ok at best so far. same with antonio so far. ahman was good when healthy but that wasnt a big contract anyway relatively speaking. weaver was the worst of the bunch by far imo. these misses have been offset by picking up really good mid/low level FA's consistently and every team misses a couple of times. i stilll think we have among the highest strike-rate though

you gotta be kidding me. other teams have holes and they address them. we have holes and we leave them as holes for the life of a franchise (see Center position, both safety positions, and better coaching)

sometimes the expectations around here are really low...just sayin

Runner
10-03-2009, 11:11 AM
and with regard to talent evaluation, please list me all the organisation that have amassed more talent over the last couple years than us;



But the owner and coaches are talking about how the players can't run the plays. Apparently the talent evaluators didn't pick guys that can play in NFL schemes, even with the coaches working so hard.

b0ng
10-03-2009, 11:56 AM
There's another thread about that already. It's been going all week.

That question got answered when Carr left town and Schaub took over.

Again, see the chicken and egg thread.

Kubiak doesn't belong in the same conversation as Cowher. He went 11-5 his first year in the league and made the playoffs. Anyone who watched the game back then knew that guy was destined for greatness.

Pretty much it's speculation and opinion. The O-line vs QB is only used as an example of what was as compared to what is now. Nobody will know the answers to what should happen until the very earlieast when we fail/clinch the playoffs this year.

You did illustrate my point very weel though, you don't really know the answers just like myself.

Mr. White
10-03-2009, 12:13 PM
Pretty much it's speculation and opinion. The O-line vs QB is only used as an example of what was as compared to what is now. Nobody will know the answers to what should happen until the very earlieast when we fail/clinch the playoffs this year.

You did illustrate my point very weel though, you don't really know the answers just like myself.

Yeah but it's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together on this thing.

Speculation was when I started a thread about this very issue last November. When someone from the national media writes an article that says as much, then that's confirmation as far as I'm concerned.

It's a fact that the GM's in Denver worked for Mike Shanahan. We know this because Shanahan fired Ted Sundquist (or had him fired) two seasons ago.

It's really not to much of a stretch to think that Kubiak runs this franchise the same way because he's done everything else the exact same way. Nobody's offered any evidence yet to the contrary.

b0ng
10-03-2009, 12:50 PM
Yeah but it's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together on this thing.

Speculation was when I started a thread about this very issue last November. When someone from the national media writes an article that says as much, then that's confirmation as far as I'm concerned.

Why is it all of a sudden confirmation because a pundit (of all things) has the same opinion as you? If Charley Casserly gave this opinion rather than Mike Lombardi does it hold just as much weight? Does that make it a fact that the Texans need to start over? I don't think it does. I agree that Kubiak has his flaws as a coach and whether he should or should not be fired still remains to be seen. The reason it remains to be seen is because I can say that it's pretty factual that we haven't switched coaches mid-season ever, so we will probably be treated to what Kubiak puts on the field for the rest of the year, like it or not.

It's a fact that the GM's in Denver worked for Mike Shanahan. We know this because Shanahan fired Ted Sundquist (or had him fired) two seasons ago.

It's really not to much of a stretch to think that Kubiak runs this franchise the same way because he's done everything else the exact same way. Nobody's offered any evidence yet to the contrary.


So basically what you're saying is "Gary Kubiak runs things just like Shanahan in Denver. My evidence is Shanahan fired Sundquist 2 seasons ago. Prove me wrong."

I can understand having frustration for a coach who looks to be putting up yet another mediocre season (Although not even a quarter of the season is done), but saying that people need to go gather proof of this or that without you presenting any real evidence is kind of "meh" to me.

Honestly Mike Lombardi is just saying things that can't be proven or disproven ("Texans need to start over") and people are getting upset. It's the dude's opinion, but it's probably not going to have any sway over McNair whatsoever so really, who cares? I'll hold my own judgement on what the Texans need to do when I see the entire body of work put forth in 2009.

Double Barrel
10-03-2009, 04:31 PM
well our HC has worked alot more in-depth with many of those listed and it doesnt stop alot of people second guessing him right?

yeah, good point. When Kubiak becomes and NFLN analyst, I will be sure to listen to what he has to say about things. :)

Maddict5
10-03-2009, 05:24 PM
But the owner and coaches are talking about how the players can't run the plays. Apparently the talent evaluators didn't pick guys that can play in NFL schemes, even with the coaches working so hard.

no they're saying that the players are making too many mistakes.... which the players are echoing no? you can stop wording it like the players have been thrown under the bus too. he said everybody's working hard but too many mistakes are being made & both the players & himself have to do a better job

you gotta be kidding me. other teams have holes and they address them. we have holes and we leave them as holes for the life of a franchise (see Center position, both safety positions, and better coaching)

sometimes the expectations around here are really low...just sayin

any examples?? we had a hole at OLB right? we needed a pass rushing DE right? we drafted caldwell as our C. they liked barber at safety & theres only so many positions you can address with quality replacements (we did draft nolan). looks like barber isnt the answer. tough luck- for every diles & briesel, theres a barber. only way you'll fund out is playing them. they're giving pollard a shot now

Mr. White
10-03-2009, 05:28 PM
Why is it all of a sudden confirmation because a pundit (of all things) has the same opinion as you? If Charley Casserly gave this opinion rather than Mike Lombardi does it hold just as much weight? Does that make it a fact that the Texans need to start over? I don't think it does. I agree that Kubiak has his flaws as a coach and whether he should or should not be fired still remains to be seen. The reason it remains to be seen is because I can say that it's pretty factual that we haven't switched coaches mid-season ever, so we will probably be treated to what Kubiak puts on the field for the rest of the year, like it or not.

Then why listen to Florio, Glazer, Schefter, Mortensen, or anyone else in the media for that matter? The fact is that they have access that none of us as fans have just by the nature of their occupation.

Some of us don't like what they write and then try to discredit the source.


So basically what you're saying is "Gary Kubiak runs things just like Shanahan in Denver. My evidence is Shanahan fired Sundquist 2 seasons ago. Prove me wrong."

Not by a longshot. I'm not offering evidence. I'm offering an example. It's common knowledge that Shanahan ran football operations when he was in Denver. What makes you think that isn't the case here? Everything else is the same.

It's obvious that Rick Smith doesn't have the powers of a traditional GM just like Denver GM's didn't under Shanahan. I don't think it's gonna take a peer-reviewed scientific paper to prove that out.

BTW, I remember reading a rumor on this board back in 2005 about how Carr wasn't putting time in before and after practice. Then I remember a quote coming out from McNair after he got cut that confirmed this fact.

That's exactly how I see things shaking out over here.

I don't care where he's from or where he went to college. I'm not rooting for a coach, I'm rooting for a football team.

b0ng
10-03-2009, 06:57 PM
Then why listen to Florio, Glazer, Schefter, Mortensen, or anyone else in the media for that matter? The fact is that they have access that none of us as fans have just by the nature of their occupation.

Some of us don't like what they write and then try to discredit the source.

I think a lot of the media guys that you named (Glazer and Schefter) are great "information" guys. They let us know when moves are being made and what teams are currently doing and give us the scoops on what player might be moving where. Florio has always been an ***** and I've never thought any of his analysis on what teams "should" do was worth the data it was written on. Information is good, but you will never see me quote somebody like Peter King as evidence of what a team should do.

This is the mainstream sports media we are talking about, the same media we gripe about being wrong or not respecting Houston sports in general. If you want to quote Mike freakin Lombardi and say "Well he agrees with me so I am right" doesn't do a thing for me. My thoughts on this particular opinion is the same as most of the other sports writers who like to give advice to teams for free: So what.

The point that I'm trying to get across is I might nod my head when they agree with me, I might shake my head in disgust when they don't, but I will never quote them and their opinions to supplement an argument I am trying to make. Information they give about what is actually going on in the NFL is something else entirely, and that is the only point where their access gives them credibility.
Not by a longshot. I'm not offering evidence. I'm offering an example. It's common knowledge that Shanahan ran football operations when he was in Denver. What makes you think that isn't the case here? Everything else is the same.

Because Mike Shanahan isn't in Texas much less Houston?

It's obvious that Rick Smith doesn't have the powers of a traditional GM just like Denver GM's didn't under Shanahan. I don't think it's gonna take a peer-reviewed scientific paper to prove that out.

He negotiates player contracts, he makes draft picks and fines players. How is this not a traditional GM? I don't think that Rick Smith swings in a hammock drinking lemonade all day.

BTW, I remember reading a rumor on this board back in 2005 about how Carr wasn't putting time in before and after practice. Then I remember a quote coming out from McNair after he got cut that confirmed this fact.

That's exactly how I see things shaking out over here.

I don't care where he's from or where he went to college. I'm not rooting for a coach, I'm rooting for a football team.

What does Carr have to do with this again?

I don't root for a coach either. I root for the Houston Texans and I want them to improve in a way that I can't even describe in words. When they win, I'm on a high note for the rest of the week. When they lose it feels like somebody just ran over my dog.

But as far as what they should do with the staff? Yeah if Kubiak puts up another ho-hum season he should be fired. But as of right now the season isn't over, and I can see the coach not being fired until sometime after January 3rd. Getting all antsy on the internet about "should they fire him, who should they hire yadda yadda" when no move has been made seems like an exercise is stress building. I have 2 kids and they exercise my stress levels plenty enough.

Lucky
10-04-2009, 08:43 AM
He negotiates player contracts, he makes draft picks and fines players. How is this not a traditional GM?
Smith is not a traditional GM in the sense that he is at the top of the food chain. He's handcuffed to Kubiak. As Kubiak goes, so does Smith.


But as far as what they should do with the staff? Yeah if Kubiak puts up another ho-hum season he should be fired.
That's all anyone (including Lombardi) is saying. Some are projecting how the season will turn out, based upon the results seen thus far. If the Texans were 3-0, would you be as dismissive of positive prognostications? Stress is watching this team fail. Speculating on a white knight coming in to save this organization is hopeful, in my estimation.

thunderkyss
10-04-2009, 09:37 AM
We look great on first & second down. I don't see how this could be a personnel issue.

If we fix the third down problem, we will have a top 5 defense.

I say we stay the coarse, and get'r done.

GP
10-04-2009, 01:01 PM
3rd down is like watching JJ receive the ball at our own 15 on a punt.

Mr. White
10-06-2009, 05:14 PM
Bumped. I posted this in the Chris Henry thread and figured I'd put it here in the interest of fairness.

FWIW, I asked McClain about this today in his chat (http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/10/live_texans_chat_at_1130_am_1.html) and he helped clarify things.

11:46
[Comment From Corey]
Did you see Mike Lombardi's article on Friday? Basically, it said that Gary Kubiak has too much control over the organization and the Texans need a strong GM.
11:47
John McClain: Lombardi doesn't like the Texans. He obviously doesn't know what goes on in this organization. For instance, Kubiak is working on the game plan right now. Rick Smith is watching free agents try out as he does every Tuesday. If he wants to sign one, he doesn't tell Kubiak. He signs him and tells Kubiak who he signed. Does that sound like Kubiak has all the control?

I tend to respect McClains POV on the Texans more than Lombardi. So as far as I'm concerned, this blows away my theory after Lombardi's article that Kubiak runs everything. Cooler heads (Texans Chick) said that Kubiak and Smith work together. Looks like they (she) were (was) right.

Double Barrel
10-06-2009, 05:22 PM
Bumped. I posted this in the Chris Henry thread and figured I'd put it here in the interest of fairness.

FWIW, I asked McClain about this today in his chat (http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/10/live_texans_chat_at_1130_am_1.html) and he helped clarify things.



I tend to respect McClains POV on the Texans more than Lombardi. So as far as I'm concerned, this blows away my theory after Lombardi's article that Kubiak runs everything. Cooler heads (Texans Chick) said that Kubiak and Smith work together. Looks like they (she) were (was) right.

So basically fire the GM on down if this season tanks. :ok:

Lucky
10-06-2009, 08:38 PM
I tend to respect McClains POV on the Texans more than Lombardi.
I don't buy for a second that Smith would sign a free agent, cut someone from the roster, and not inform Kubiak beforehand.

ArlingtonTexan
10-06-2009, 08:53 PM
I don't buy for a second that Smith would sign a free agent, cut someone from the roster, and not inform Kubiak beforehand.

My guesstimate is that
1) Kubiak knows that Smith understands what he wants in players.
2) Kubiak knows which players are coming for try outs.
3) any cuts have already been discussed before the Tuesday workouts

infantrycak
10-06-2009, 09:05 PM
My guesstimate is that
1) Kubiak knows that Smith understands what he wants in players.
2) Kubiak knows which players are coming for try outs.
3) any cuts have already been discussed before the Tuesday workouts

Exactly. He may not know the status of negotiations but you can bet Smith didn't haul off and talk to someone Kubiak didn't think would fit the offense.

Kind of funny though. In another thread someone was talking about hiring the Titans' GM. How big a black mark was Tony Hollings to Casserly? Here is a 2nd round pick being put on our practice squad.

Mr teX
10-07-2009, 12:05 AM
There's another thread about that already. It's been going all week.

That question got answered when Carr left town and Schaub took over.
Again, see the chicken and egg thread.

Kubiak doesn't belong in the same conversation as Cowher. He went 11-5 his first year in the league and made the playoffs. Anyone who watched the game back then knew that guy was destined for greatness.

yeah, it was all of the above!

GP
10-07-2009, 12:10 AM
I don't buy for a second that Smith would sign a free agent, cut someone from the roster, and not inform Kubiak beforehand.

LOL. My thoughts, as well.

Surely the GM is calling or texting the HC and saying "You want me to sign this guy? You want me to cut that guy?"

Smith does the ground work, but surely isn't making roster moves on his own. Unless it's for Practice Squad only. I could see Smith handling Practice Squad players: Signing them onto it.

m5kwatts
10-07-2009, 12:14 AM
Lombardi simply put is retarded. Just because Rick Smith isn't a popular NFL personnel name like Bill Parcells he automatically assumes Kubiak is over here making every personnel decision. Rick has the final word on what free agents are signed and who is brought in. He scours the waiver wire and he talks to other GMs when trades are under discussion.

Lombardi is reporting on something completely uninformed. Don't believe a word he says. I don't know how many times I've heard the media ask Kubiak a question about free agents or potential players to bring in and he deflects them completely says he has no clue and thats Rick's job.

jppaul
10-07-2009, 02:50 AM
Maybe Lombardi wanted the job that Smith got....:lion:

Double Barrel
10-07-2009, 01:18 PM
Rick has the final word on what free agents are signed and who is brought in. He scours the waiver wire and he talks to other GMs when trades are under discussion.

Do you have a reliable source for this information regarding the chain of command within the Texans bunker?

I ask simply because this FO is very guarded about the inner workings of the organization. Either you have experienced it firsthand by working for the team, or have a reliable source that can be confirmed, or you are just speculating like Lombardi appears to be doing.

m5kwatts
10-07-2009, 02:18 PM
Do you have a reliable source for this information regarding the chain of command within the Texans bunker?

I ask simply because this FO is very guarded about the inner workings of the organization. Either you have experienced it firsthand by working for the team, or have a reliable source that can be confirmed, or you are just speculating like Lombardi appears to be doing.

Rick has said these are his duties in multiple interviews and not just that but Kubiak has actually said these AREN'T his duties on top of it. Lombardi is an *****, he's calling for exactly whats already in place with this club.

Mr. White
10-07-2009, 02:27 PM
Rick has said these are his duties in multiple interviews and not just that but Kubiak has actually said these AREN'T his duties on top of it. Lombardi is an *****, he's calling for exactly whats already in place with this club.

I don't think that's the case. From what McClain said, he has a degree of autonomy, but not the same degree of autonomy that a guys like Polian and Pioli have.

Double Barrel
10-07-2009, 03:31 PM
Rick has said these are his duties in multiple interviews and not just that but Kubiak has actually said these AREN'T his duties on top of it. Lombardi is an *****, he's calling for exactly whats already in place with this club.

Please provide a source to the interview where Rick Smith says that he "has the final word on what free agents are signed and who is brought in".

I'm not saying that you did not read this or he did not say it, but rather I want to read it myself because this franchise has always been very tight-lipped about these things, and I would find it interesting to read Smith's comments about having the final word on things. I have read dozens of interviews with the GM, and I've never gotten this impression.

m5kwatts
10-07-2009, 03:47 PM
Please provide a source to the interview where Rick Smith says that he "has the final word on what free agents are signed and who is brought in".

I'm not saying that you did not read this or he did not say it, but rather I want to read it myself because this franchise has always been very tight-lipped about these things, and I would find it interesting to read Smith's comments about having the final word on things. I have read dozens of interviews with the GM, and I've never gotten this impression.

It was in a video on HT.com and Kubiak was answering questions, he was asked if they had signed Andre Hall after they worked him out and Kubiak said "I don't know you'll have to ask Rick that"

I believe it was the training camp night practice with the fans. It was around this time if you wanna dig up the training camp videos.

infantrycak
10-07-2009, 03:57 PM
It was in a video on HT.com and Kubiak was answering questions, he was asked if they had signed Andre Hall after they worked him out and Kubiak said "I don't know you'll have to ask Rick that"

I believe it was the training camp night practice with the fans. It was around this time if you wanna dig up the training camp videos.

Which doesn't support the extension you are taking it to. Let's use Chris Henry as an example. Smith hear's he is coming available and goes with a list of other players he finds interesting to Kubiak to discuss whether they are interesting to him. They have a discussion with Kubiak going yes, no, no, no, yes on whether they are interesting and then sending Smith off to see if they can bring in or sign the yes players. After that Smith is off trying to make it happen. Your quote and many similar ones like it wouldn't contradict that process at all.

Double Barrel
10-07-2009, 04:21 PM
It was in a video on HT.com and Kubiak was answering questions, he was asked if they had signed Andre Hall after they worked him out and Kubiak said "I don't know you'll have to ask Rick that"

I believe it was the training camp night practice with the fans. It was around this time if you wanna dig up the training camp videos.

I've seen that interview and did not extrapolate the following statement from it: "Rick has the final word on what free agents are signed and who is brought in."

Rick has said these are his duties in multiple interviews and not just that but Kubiak has actually said these AREN'T his duties on top of it.

I'm looking for ONE interview, which should be easy since you mention multiple interviews, where Smith said that these are his duties. You made a very clear statement that "Rick has the final word on what free agents are signed and who is brought in" and then defended it by stating that he has said these are his duties in multiple interviews. I have searched and have yet to find one of them.

infantrycak
10-07-2009, 04:31 PM
I'm looking for ONE interview, which should be easy since you mention multiple interviews, where Smith said that these are his duties. You made a very clear statement that "Rick has the final word on what free agents are signed and who is brought in" and then defended it by stating that he has said these are his duties in multiple interviews. I have searched and have yet to find one of them.

And truth is even if there is an interview where he directly states "it is my job duty to find and sign free agents" that doesn't mean it is without the approval of Kubiak. Lot's of employees have job duties that are finally overseen by someone higher up.

dalemurphy
10-07-2009, 04:36 PM
I feel pretty strongly that there is mutual respect and understanding. I think Kubiak trusts Rick Smith to do his job. I think Kubiak believes in the man and is comfortable with his decision-making. They come from the same system and that makes collaboration easy. I think this is a non-issue. They are a package deal and either will both be successful or both fail here. I seriously doubt there has ever been a power play between the two.

infantrycak
10-07-2009, 04:42 PM
I feel pretty strongly that there is mutual respect and understanding. I think Kubiak trusts Rick Smith to do his job. I think Kubiak believes in the man and is comfortable with his decision-making. They come from the same system and that makes collaboration easy. I think this is a non-issue. They are a package deal and either will both be successful or both fail here. I seriously doubt there has ever been a power play between the two.

I suspect you are correct but at the same time someone has to have final authority. I suspect Kubiak hasn't ever pulled it out but it resides in his pocket. I don't think that is a stretch when the head coach picks the GM and not the other way around.

GP
10-07-2009, 05:14 PM
Which doesn't support the extension you are taking it to. Let's use Chris Henry as an example. Smith hear's he is coming available and goes with a list of other players he finds interesting to Kubiak to discuss whether they are interesting to him. They have a discussion with Kubiak going yes, no, no, no, yes on whether they are interesting and then sending Smith off to see if they can bring in or sign the yes players. After that Smith is off trying to make it happen. Your quote and many similar ones like it wouldn't contradict that process at all.

Exactly what I think.

When Kubiak says "Go ask Rick Smith..." about signing Andre Hall...that could mean that Kubiak WANTS Andre Hall, but Rick Smith is tied up in the contractual negotiation with an agent at the moment.

In short: Kubiak doesn't know if a guy's been signed, because Rick is doing the contract talks while Kubiak is busy with aspects of our current roster.

m5kwatts
10-07-2009, 05:58 PM
Which doesn't support the extension you are taking it to. Let's use Chris Henry as an example. Smith hear's he is coming available and goes with a list of other players he finds interesting to Kubiak to discuss whether they are interesting to him. They have a discussion with Kubiak going yes, no, no, no, yes on whether they are interesting and then sending Smith off to see if they can bring in or sign the yes players. After that Smith is off trying to make it happen. Your quote and many similar ones like it wouldn't contradict that process at all.

Exactly.