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Maddict5
09-24-2009, 04:49 PM
This is a site i like to visit to see how each individual Texan is performing leaguewide. Basically, its just a group of hardcore fans who rate every single player in the league on each individual play. Dont get too caught up in the numbers (as imo penalties & blocked are weighted too much against skill players) etc but its good for a general idea


Week 1 review v the Jets:

http://profootballfocus.com/articles.php?tab=articles&arc=&id=26

Performances of Note

* That was a bad day at the office for Matt Schaub. He looked awful, not getting to grips at all with the Jets defensive scheme, his accuracy being poor and generally looking lost out there. His 18 out of 32 aimed passes isnít bad in itself, but Schaub missed a number of wide open targets and did nothing to help this offence when there were open receivers.
* We were pleasantly impressed by the performance of Duane Brown. Sure he gave up one sack, but considering how terrible he was last year he looked like a different player with his pass blocking in this one. He has a ways to go but could this project be working out for Houston?
* For as good as the Texans were in defending the run, they were as inefficient in pass defence, allowing far too many completions on third down. It appeared pretty clear that they are worse off for Dunta Robinson having missed most of the off season workouts. He wasnít great when he was in the game (allowing 3 of 4 balls thrown his way) but it was when they decided to take him out the defence suffered. No one they tried to replace him with had a good game and it was only the inaccuracy of a rookie quarterback that prevented things looking worse for them.

Individual Rating: Offence

http://www.profootballfocus.com/gstats.php?tab=by_week&season=2009&gameid=1397&teamid=13&stats=o&playerid=


Individual Rating: Defence

http://www.profootballfocus.com/gstats.php?tab=by_week&season=2009&gameid=1397&teamid=13&stats=d&playerid=

Maddict5
09-24-2009, 04:53 PM
Week 2 review v the Titans:

http://profootballfocus.com/articles.php?tab=articles&arc=&id=35

Performances of Note

* Matt Schaub is in danger of leading himself to be branded a streaky quarterback. For as bad as he was against the Jets, he was as good against the Titans. He faced a fair amount of pressure and was hit 8 times, but stood tall in the pocket and made some fantastic throws to beat some inconsistent coverage.
* The Texans brought John Busing in early for Dominique Barber and we’re not overly sure why he got the nod. For a guy who plays mainly in the box he didn’t do an awfully good job of getting to the ball carrier (0 stops) and ironically his best play was in coverage (a nice break on the ball to almost intercept a pass).
* On a day where he caught 149 yards and 2 touchdowns how could Andre Johnson grade below average? Well in part you have to look at his run blocking that was pretty poor. Then you have to see that he dropped two very catchable balls. Follow it up with the fact that he was aimed at 15 times and caught 10 of those balls (not bad, but neither spectacular either) and you get an idea that his stats were to a degree handed to him by the performance of Matt Schaub (and that of a Titans secondary). Take his 2nd touchdown for example, what did he do but run down the field? That play was more a result of Michael Griffin biting big time on a play action fake than anything special Johnson did.

Rookie Watch

* Starting with the ugly, Connor Barwin didn’t perform well at all. He gave up two penalties which is bad enough, didn’t manage to get any pressure on 15 attempts, and looked woefully out of place when he was in run defence. Complete project at this stage.
* Brian Cushing saw increased playing time as he is now on the field in nickel situations. He had a decent enough game with an impressive 6 stops but can over pursue at times.
* Cornerbacks Glover Quin and Brice McCain did nothing to establish themselves at this stage of their careers. Quin saw action as the nickel back but gave up two completions when thrown at, while McClain saw limited action where his main claim to fame was getting manhandled on the first touchdown run by Kenny Britt.

Individual Rating Offence:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/gstats.php?tab=by_week&season=2009&wk=02&teamid=13&gameid=1414&stats=o

Individual Rating: Defence

http://www.profootballfocus.com/gstats.php?tab=by_week&season=2009&gameid=1397&teamid=13&stats=d&playerid=

76Texan
09-24-2009, 04:58 PM
Can't argue much against that!

Maddict5
09-24-2009, 05:00 PM
Overall Items of Note (imo):
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=OLB3&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numgames=1

Our LB'ers are playing pretty good: Diles (#5) & Cushing (#13) are both rated in the top 15 4-3 LBers

Duane Brown is currently rated in the top 10 pass blockers (they thought he was awful last year)
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=T&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numgames=1

Demeco is #6 MLB v the run
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=T&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numgames=1

Kasey Studdard being our best run blocker by quite a bit in the titans game
http://www.profootballfocus.com/gstats.php?tab=by_week&season=2009&wk=02&teamid=13&gameid=1414&stats=o

Lucky
09-24-2009, 10:48 PM
On a day where he caught 149 yards and 2 touchdowns how could Andre Johnson grade below average? Well in part you have to look at his run blocking that was pretty poor. Then you have to see that he dropped two very catchable balls. Follow it up with the fact that he was aimed at 15 times and caught 10 of those balls (not bad, but neither spectacular either) and you get an idea that his stats were to a degree handed to him by the performance of Matt Schaub (and that of a Titans secondary). Take his 2nd touchdown for example, what did he do but run down the field? That play was more a result of Michael Griffin biting big time on a play action fake than anything special Johnson did.
What about the 1st touchdown? Where AJ brought the pass in with one hand while staying inbounds in the corner of the endzone? Or grabbing an errant Schaub pass after seemingly leaping 6 feet?

Please. Looks like the blogger ran out of things to gripe about.

TexansSeminole
09-24-2009, 11:09 PM
What about the 1st touchdown? Where AJ brought the pass in with one hand while staying inbounds in the corner of the endzone? Or grabbing an errant Schaub pass after seemingly leaping 6 feet?

Please. Looks like the blogger ran out of things to gripe about.

I'd have to say I agree. Johnson had two drops early, but was great for the rest of the game.

They say Cushing is just starting to get more playing time, that he is in on nickel situations. Seems to me he is a starter in the base defense, and played the majority of the game.

Maddict5
09-25-2009, 04:06 AM
What about the 1st touchdown? Where AJ brought the pass in with one hand while staying inbounds in the corner of the endzone? Or grabbing an errant Schaub pass after seemingly leaping 6 feet?

Please. Looks like the blogger ran out of things to gripe about.

im not sure exactly how it works but i think for each play, they use a +-2 rating. +2 for a great play,-2 for a horrible with 0 being the average and an above average play being +.5. so aj prob got a +2 for his first td & a 0 for his second with a -.5 for each drop. like i said, take it with a pinch of salt but its interesting nonetheless

I'd have to say I agree. Johnson had two drops early, but was great for the rest of the game.

They say Cushing is just starting to get more playing time, that he is in on nickel situations. Seems to me he is a starter in the base defense, and played the majority of the game.

you're right, he played 65 snaps- tied for highest amount (im guessing all) of snap with demeco, dunta etc

Kal
09-25-2009, 02:49 PM
Hi

I work for PFF so figured I could answer any questions. I did the player participation for both games so was able to notice some trends from spending roughly 13 hours watching the Texans first two games :p

In regards to Cushing, in the opener he came out on nickel packages consistently (along with Ziles) and was replaced by Adibi but by game 2 had made his way onto the field for pretty much every snap.

In regards to the comments regarding Johnson, he was graded highly for his first touchdown and had a good game with his passing but his yardage would lead to the belief he had an elite game when he didn't. Matt Schaub did, and the Titans secondary were terrible for the most part. If it looks like we're griping I obviously need to adjust my style, as the point was to point out that Johnson had a good but not spectacular game (he didn't do as much for example as Cotchery did against you guys where he forced missed tackles and didn't drop any passes)

Johnson remains one of the top three wide receivers in the game imo

I'll continue to say that I am more and more impressed by how little I am noticing Duane Brown, he's like a different player compared to last year.

The Pencil Neck
09-25-2009, 02:54 PM
Welcome to the board. We really appreciate your input.

Ckw
09-25-2009, 03:10 PM
What really stood out to me is over the last two games, PFF rates Amobi as one of our best defensive players. Something is wrong here. PFF guy, can you explain this?

76Texan
09-25-2009, 03:15 PM
What really stood out to me is over the last two games, PFF rates Amobi as one of our best defensive players. Something is wrong here. PFF guy, can you explain this?

They have a lot to tinker with.
For example, when a guy get a penalty, he is deducted a whole 1 point; no matter what kind of infraction it was.

Okoye didn't commit any penalty, so that helps him with the overall score.

Ckw
09-25-2009, 03:18 PM
They have a lot to tinker with.
For example, when a guy get a penalty, he is deducted a whole 1 point; no matter what kind of infraction it was.

Okoye didn't commit any penalty, so that helps him with the overall score.

That is just incredible to me. Okoye has not looked good to me. He looked ok in the Titans game. It certainly didn't seem like he was one of our better defensive players. At least I was right about Dunta; he has played horribly the last two games. I could just see it and sure enough, he is rated towards the bottom for both of our games.

76Texan
09-25-2009, 03:32 PM
Another thing is I don't know how a dropped pass is rated.
Let's say if a receiver drops a short 3-yd pass, is he deducted the same points as if he drops a sure-fire long TD pass?

And does it matter if the receiver drops a short 5-yd pass on 1-10, then catches a 58yd TD pass on 2-10 (the very next play).

Kal
09-25-2009, 03:33 PM
Welcome to the board. We really appreciate your input.

Thank you very much, I'll do my best to keep up with the board and not just offer a PFF perspective ... I'm quite enjoying watching the Texans

What really stood out to me is over the last two games, PFF rates Amobi as one of our best defensive players. Something is wrong here. PFF guy, can you explain this?

I'll preface this by saying that I don't do the analysis (grading). From spending so much time watching it I didn't see Okoye do anything particularly bad, but he didn't stand out. 4 pressures isn't overly bad and he isn't getting pushed around in the run game. We have Cody graded higher, but he's only amongst the top end of defensive tackles for you guys because the rest have under performed. It's hard to judge total impact after 2 games so we'll see how Okoye grades out over the season ... but judging from his start to this year and his performance last year I'd expect him to be a force pressuring the QB (though he doesn't seem to translate this into sacks) and a bit ineffective in the running game.

They have a lot to tinker with.
For example, when a guy get a penalty, he is deducted a whole 1 point; no matter what kind of infraction it was.

Okoye didn't commit any penalty, so that helps him with the overall score.

It's something we often debate in terms of how to weight penalties. There needs to be consistency because a penalty is a negative play (even a good penalty like a pass interference to stop a touchdown is a negative play because you got yourself into position to give up a TD). We don't grade deliberate penalties like delays of games which are obvious to wind the clock down so there is some subjectivity if you get my meaning.

76Texan
09-25-2009, 03:34 PM
They are just numbers, and numbers usually don't tell the true story.

76Texan
09-25-2009, 03:37 PM
It's something we often debate in terms of how to weight penalties. There needs to be consistency because a penalty is a negative play (even a good penalty like a pass interference to stop a touchdown is a negative play because you got yourself into position to give up a TD). We don't grade deliberate penalties like delays of games which are obvious to wind the clock down so there is some subjectivity if you get my meaning.
There are times a pass is thrown and there's nothing a DB can do about it.
So if the receiver catches it for a TD, does the DB got point deducted?
And how much?

And in that instance, if he grabs the receiver to save a TD, does he still get deducted points for committing a penalty?

Kal
09-25-2009, 03:58 PM
I'll have to check on the last point ... but you're right sometimes a corner can have pretty close to perfect coverage and there's nothing that can be done so (and I'll double check to be sure) he won't get marked down.

He may even get a positive mark for having good coverage, but I'll have to check that.

Kal
09-25-2009, 04:00 PM
They are just numbers, and numbers usually don't tell the true story.

I like to think numbers play a part in telling the story :)

But for a site like ours, we analyse players, so we rate their performances rather than games (we just use games to rate players). We can't measure intangible things like how players react to adveristy and what not, but what we can do is break down every play and apply a consistent grading to how players perform to look at (over the course of a season) just who are the players playing the best football (not necessarily the best players, as thats something subjective and takes into account opposition, degree of injury etc)

76Texan
09-25-2009, 04:04 PM
Another question!

Let's take AJ's second TD reception.

He got inside position on the receiver.
It's highly likely that when he turns on the jet, the DB wouldn't be able to catch to to him.
And if the DB is just a tad late, he might have to commit interference to prevent the TD.
And he might not even able to do that.
So why doesn't AJ get any point? Or did he?

Kal
09-25-2009, 04:13 PM
I'll find that out for you ... I don't have access to the ratings, but he wouldn't get graded highly for it ... he may get a 0.5+ for his route but that play (and I'm going off memory so I'll rewatch it myself) was more down to a horrendous bite on the play action by Griffin when he was the deep safety and should have been in position to negate the big play

I'd imagine Johnson got a positive for the route running though but I'll ask the analyst to be sure.

Thanks for the feedback and keep holding us accountable to things you don't agree with ... our aim is to be as close to perfect as possible, but its an imperfect science so we'll keep on trucking :)

76Texan
09-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Another question!

On the second TD pass to AJ, Martinez completely took out the DE;
he was given only .1 point.
Is that because it was considered lucky?

The DE was afraid that he will be cut-block, so he laid it to Martinez.
But that took him completely out.

Schaub had 3 secs to throw the ball, and he was very close to the DE to start with. And he stepped into the throw on that side.
Let's say if the call had gone to the other side, Schaub would have been further away from the LDE.

Only then does Martinez get the full .2 credit?
For doing the same thing?

76Texan
09-25-2009, 04:21 PM
I'll find that out for you ... I don't have access to the ratings, but he wouldn't get graded highly for it ... he may get a 0.5+ for his route but that play (and I'm going off memory so I'll rewatch it myself) was more down to a horrendous bite on the play action by Griffin when he was the deep safety and should have been in position to negate the big play

I'd imagine Johnson got a positive for the route running though but I'll ask the analyst to be sure.

Thanks for the feedback and keep holding us accountable to things you don't agree with ... our aim is to be as close to perfect as possible, but its an imperfect science so we'll keep on trucking :)
Even if Griffin didn't bite on the play fake, AJ was turning back toward the flag.
Now he has outside position on Griffin.
I don't see anything Griffin can do about it.

Schaub saw the field the whole way through, he could adjust his pass to the outsie if he wanted to!

Ckw
09-25-2009, 04:48 PM
I'll preface this by saying that I don't do the analysis (grading). From spending so much time watching it I didn't see Okoye do anything particularly bad, but he didn't stand out. 4 pressures isn't overly bad and he isn't getting pushed around in the run game. We have Cody graded higher, but he's only amongst the top end of defensive tackles for you guys because the rest have under performed. It's hard to judge total impact after 2 games so we'll see how Okoye grades out over the season ... but judging from his start to this year and his performance last year I'd expect him to be a force pressuring the QB (though he doesn't seem to translate this into sacks) and a bit ineffective in the running game.

Thanks a lot and rep your way. I think I speak for most of us in saying I hope you stick around. You nailed it on Okoye. I guess maybe we are a bit too hard on Amobi considering he should be doing more as a 1st round pick, but he obviously isn't as awful as some of us make him out to be. Appreciate the objective POV.

dalemurphy
09-25-2009, 05:06 PM
Thanks a lot and rep your way. I think I speak for most of us in saying I hope you stick around. You nailed it on Okoye. I guess maybe we are a bit too hard on Amobi considering he should be doing more as a 1st round pick, but he obviously isn't as awful as some of us make him out to be. Appreciate the objective POV.

He's is absolutely terrible when he is run at. I don't mind if he's in the game to rush the passer, but the coaching staff have him playing almost as much as Mario, while Robinson sits on the bench. By the way, does anyone really believe Okoye is a better pass rusher than Bulman? Once Barwin starts producing on the outside, I'll be annoyed again because Okoye will be taking snaps away from Bulman... ugggh!

TimeKiller
09-25-2009, 05:15 PM
Nice take Kal!

Not much to disagree with, the numbers pretty well describe everyone. Except I think you left Eugene Wilson out, he had the INT vs the Titans so I kind of expected to see him in there.

I think our LB crew is really going to wreck some O's as we go along but man we are thin, thin, thin in the secondary. Next years draft HAS to be a secondary pick in the 1st round.

Ckw
09-25-2009, 05:18 PM
He's is absolutely terrible when he is run at. I don't mind if he's in the game to rush the passer, but the coaching staff have him playing almost as much as Mario, while Robinson sits on the bench. By the way, does anyone really believe Okoye is a better pass rusher than Bulman? Once Barwin starts producing on the outside, I'll be annoyed again because Okoye will be taking snaps away from Bulman... ugggh!

I won't disagree with you. My only point was that according to an objective breakdown of Amobi's play, he wasn't bad. He certainly isn't good. His play gets exaggerated from being average to horrible simply because he was a 1st round pick, and I don't blame you for that. I also don't disagree with you that there are some other guys that should be utilized more than Amobi, and we should probably just use him on passing downs.

Lucky
09-25-2009, 08:25 PM
I work for PFF so figured I could answer any questions. I did the player participation for both games so was able to notice some trends from spending roughly 13 hours watching the Texans first two games :p

In regards to the comments regarding Johnson, he was graded highly for his first touchdown and had a good game with his passing but his yardage would lead to the belief he had an elite game when he didn't. Matt Schaub did, and the Titans secondary were terrible for the most part. If it looks like we're griping I obviously need to adjust my style, as the point was to point out that Johnson had a good but not spectacular game (he didn't do as much for example as Cotchery did against you guys where he forced missed tackles and didn't drop any passes)
I don't know exactly how you go about grading the game. I don't know if you are going off the TV feed or if you have access to coaching tape. But, if you are discretely analyzing the game from a play-by-play perspective, I think you're missing the big picture.

Andre Johnson's 1st touchdown catch turned a routine incompletion into 6 points. That trumps his two early drops, as well as anything Cotchery did in week 1. That doesn't even take into account the intangibles he brought to the game. Such as AJ's leadership, which was crucial to the outcome of the game. Or that his mere presence elevates the performances of Owen Daniels, Jacoby Jones, and Matt Schaub. I think Matt Schaub had the finest quarterbacking performance in Houston Texans history. Still, it's Andre Johnson that makes Matt Schaub better. Not vice versa.

dalemurphy
09-25-2009, 10:32 PM
I won't disagree with you. My only point was that according to an objective breakdown of Amobi's play, he wasn't bad. He certainly isn't good. His play gets exaggerated from being average to horrible simply because he was a 1st round pick, and I don't blame you for that. I also don't disagree with you that there are some other guys that should be utilized more than Amobi, and we should probably just use him on passing downs.

I don't hold any dislike of Okoye or his play because he's a 1st round pick. He's just awful, particularly against the run. His pressures are deceiving because he is never able to disengage from the blocker and therefore isn't really a threat to get to the QB and make a play. He just slides by in the QBs vision. I was a supporter of his through last season and into this one. I was also a supporter of Travis Johnson and was disappointed that he didn't get a chance to play in this system. Looking back, I've always been one of the last to criticize our 1st round selections. I was always high on Jason Babin and didn't give up on David Carr until the fumblitis in 2006. Perhaps none of that speaks well of my discerning eye, but it does say that I don't overreact to disappointing play from 1st round draft picks.

Kal
09-26-2009, 03:17 AM
I don't know exactly how you go about grading the game. I don't know if you are going off the TV feed or if you have access to coaching tape. But, if you are discretely analyzing the game from a play-by-play perspective, I think you're missing the big picture.

Andre Johnson's 1st touchdown catch turned a routine incompletion into 6 points. That trumps his two early drops, as well as anything Cotchery did in week 1. That doesn't even take into account the intangibles he brought to the game. Such as AJ's leadership, which was crucial to the outcome of the game. Or that his mere presence elevates the performances of Owen Daniels, Jacoby Jones, and Matt Schaub. I think Matt Schaub had the finest quarterbacking performance in Houston Texans history. Still, it's Andre Johnson that makes Matt Schaub better. Not vice versa.

Its an imperfect science to a degree, we can't measure impact on a game because thats something we can't quantify. Same with leadership, level of opposition or injury. It's impossible so we have to stick to what we can do accurately and consistently. Part of my take is that while clutch play is a great talking point, it balances itself out to a degree over a season and that clutch play (and I don't know if PFF shares this with me) can at times be more about a situation created than a player.

I can understand your last point, but we almost have to go into every game and start on a clean slate so we don't let preconceptions of players effect our perception. I was speaking to the owner of the site and he was dealing with a feedback enquiry who couldn't understand how atm we could have Anderson rated higher than Abraham (I'm a Falcons fan btw though I don't do any analysis/ PP of Falcons game) and the line that I think sums us up compared to some media outlets/ analysts who have an agenda to promote certain players is that we can't and will never try to fit our gradings to fit in with conventional theory.

Talking about Johnsons great TD grab trumping 2 drops may be the case, but its subjective and if we get subjective with our grading we lose our appeal and consistency and then our grading becomes flawed

I guess we know we're not perfect, but then its because its impossible to be perfect with this form of analysis (we don't have access to coach tape, we use gamepass nor do we know coaching schemes). So our goal remains to be the most close to perfect form of advanced stats out there

Hope that explains the challenges we face and that we're aware of the limitations imposed upon us

Kal
09-26-2009, 03:24 AM
Another question!

On the second TD pass to AJ, Martinez completely took out the DE;
he was given only .1 point.
Is that because it was considered lucky?

The DE was afraid that he will be cut-block, so he laid it to Martinez.
But that took him completely out.

Schaub had 3 secs to throw the ball, and he was very close to the DE to start with. And he stepped into the throw on that side.
Let's say if the call had gone to the other side, Schaub would have been further away from the LDE.

Only then does Martinez get the full .2 credit?
For doing the same thing?

Again, something I'll find out from the analyst, but I believe this comes down to how we 'normalise' gradings to take into account how many plays someone is on the field for. I have a good definition somewhere that I'll find for you. He probably got a solid positive grade for the block (off the top of my head I don't remember him being in on another play since you lined Jacoby Jones on the end of line or inside the tight end a few times) but it was weighted down because of the amount of time he saw as a pass blocker

Thanks a lot and rep your way. I think I speak for most of us in saying I hope you stick around. You nailed it on Okoye. I guess maybe we are a bit too hard on Amobi considering he should be doing more as a 1st round pick, but he obviously isn't as awful as some of us make him out to be. Appreciate the objective POV.

I'm a Falcons fan so we've had the same with Anderson. That years draft class hasn't worked out too well at the top (minus Thomas, Peterson, Willis ... I'd argue Johnson needs to get more consistent and has lived on rep a tad). I wonder if Okoye would benefit from seeing less snaps.

He's is absolutely terrible when he is run at. I don't mind if he's in the game to rush the passer, but the coaching staff have him playing almost as much as Mario, while Robinson sits on the bench. By the way, does anyone really believe Okoye is a better pass rusher than Bulman? Once Barwin starts producing on the outside, I'll be annoyed again because Okoye will be taking snaps away from Bulman... ugggh!

I wouldn't expect Barwin to start producing yet. He has looked very raw and been handled pretty comfortably every time he's tried to rush the passer. He was a project player so you know it will take time but its not been the start the Texans would have been hoping for considering how much playing time he is seeing.