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View Full Version : Why don't we use the pass to set up the run?


euro-Texan
09-24-2009, 02:32 PM
I understand this in contrary to Kubiaks beliefs because, "using the run to set up the pass" is his battle cry. Through all of my frustration in our first 5 quarters of football this season, I have wondered (often aloud) why can't we be a pass first offence? New Orleans does it with some success. I'm not suggesting we model our game after New Orleans. I'm merely saying:

1. We have more weapons in our passing game.

2. If we can force opposing defenses away from the line, the running lanes will open for Slaton.

3. Based on our run defense so far, I'd rather see teams like the Jags being forced to play the catch-up game instead of feeding MJD down our throats all day.

Obviously we looked terrible we were forced to do this in the 2nd half of the Jets game, because it was obvious we had to pass to get into the game, but while playing catch-up against Tacks, I though our passing game proved strong enough to carry the load.

Am I missing something?

pbat488
09-24-2009, 02:37 PM
It's all fine and great to use the pass to set up the run in a West coast style of offense with short dink and dunk passes, but play-action is our bread and butter, and if we don't run then our play-action is much less effective. This can be evidenced by Andre's 72 yard touchdown this past week, even though our run wasn't doing much, the safety (Griffin) still had to respect the run and it cost them.

euro-Texan
09-24-2009, 03:18 PM
Play Action Pass:lightbulb:

Goldensilence
09-24-2009, 04:24 PM
I understand this in contrary to Kubiaks beliefs because, "using the run to set up the pass" is his battle cry. Through all of my frustration in our first 5 quarters of football this season, I have wondered (often aloud) why can't we be a pass first offence? New Orleans does it with some success. I'm not suggesting we model our game after New Orleans. I'm merely saying:

1. We have more weapons in our passing game.

2. If we can force opposing defenses away from the line, the running lanes will open for Slaton.

3. Based on our run defense so far, I'd rather see teams like the Jags being forced to play the catch-up game instead of feeding MJD down our throats all day.

Obviously we looked terrible we were forced to do this in the 2nd half of the Jets game, because it was obvious we had to pass to get into the game, but while playing catch-up against Tacks, I though our passing game proved strong enough to carry the load.

Am I missing something?

Not missing anything. It's nothing new that some of us haven't been wondering ourselves.

Even if we grind out 2.3 yards a play Kubiak is going to be dedicated to trying to run the ball.

Marcus
09-24-2009, 04:54 PM
There's no such thing as using the pass to set up the run, unless you want to go back to a David Carr like dink and dunk.

If you pass 3/4ths of the time, then you better be effective the 1/4 time that you run it. Slaton is so ineffective right now with the ball, it wouldn't matter if they passed it 90% percent of the time.

If we're going to be a playoff team, we have to have an effective running game, or else it's one-dimensional.

I know this is going to be shock to some, but this isn't fantasy football.

TimeKiller
09-24-2009, 05:09 PM
Pass to set up the run....run to set up the pass...

who cares?

They have to run the ball better this week. A truly effective offense is one that can do both, not one that hopes either aspect will save the other if it's getting shutdown. Passing well doesn't make the running game work better...BLOCKING well makes the running game work better. All parties involved are to blame but 5 guys not doing the right thing needs more attention than 1 guy not doing well. If the pass was going to be used to set up the run we should've had a mighty run game going last week too. Matt Schaub and co. can cook a defense with blocking and Slaton has cooked a defense or two when he's had the blocks. No semblance of blocking vs. Jets=no run, no pass. Pass blocking only vs. Titans=4 TDs (and a win) with no run. Imagine what having blocking for both would do to a D....

HTown2ATX
09-24-2009, 05:13 PM
If we're going to be a playoff team, we have to have an effective running game, or else it's one-dimensional.

This is the key IMO. I'm not ready to give up on the run yet. It has been a dissappointment so far yes, but it's now week 3 and not 13. First game we could niether pass nor run, 2nd game we could pass but not run. Following that line of thought (mainly because the Jags are really bad right now) I'm hoping in this game we can do both. Hopefully the Jags will do for us what we usually do for other teams and that is be the cure for what's ailing us....our run game!

:fans:

hadaad
09-24-2009, 05:17 PM
I get the impression that the Titans came out in that game and decided that it didn't matter what else happened, Steve Slaton was not going to beat them. It looked like they were bringing safeties up all the time, and dominating the box. Look at Andre's huge uncovered touchdown. There was a playaction and Michael Griffin, who was responsible for Andre deep was running toward the line of scrimmage to stop the run. Tasker or Johnson mentioned while showing the replay that Griffin had taken himself out of the play for no good reason, but I think that the Titans D was convinced that if Slaton couldn't do it, the Texans couldn't do it.

Do they want to run? Sure. Who doesn't? But if the defense is going to hang around the line of scrimmage and dare the Texans to pass, we have the receivers and quarterback (finally!) to make a defense pay for a decision like that. To the tune of 357 yards and 4 touchdowns.

Fox
09-24-2009, 05:26 PM
Our offense is predicated on the play-action pass and misdirection. That stuff works much better when you have a run game that keeps the safeties biting and the defensive ends honest.

euro-Texan
09-24-2009, 06:15 PM
I don't disagree with most of this, but It seems that if we commit to running the ball on first down every play. The safties will stick close to the line, shut down the run. Whne we get to the 3rd and long situation, they then know we will have to pass. That makes us very predictable. I will not compare Carr to Schaub at all, the dink and dunk can be very effective as long as it's not all you have. A few well exicuted pass plays will open up the lanes for our running game.

Goldensilence
09-24-2009, 06:26 PM
I don't disagree with most of this, but It seems that if we commit to running the ball on first down every play. The safties will stick close to the line, shut down the run. Whne we get to the 3rd and long situation, they then know we will have to pass. That makes us very predictable. I will not compare Carr to Schaub at all, the dink and dunk can be very effective as long as it's not all you have. A few well exicuted pass plays will open up the lanes for our running game.

I think you need to define better what you mean by setting up the run using the pass.

I pointed out to the early days of Peyton Manning and Edge James. Those teams didn't line up and kick your ass off the LOS. They found ways to use the athleticism of the line, used screen plays, and got Edge around the corner on stretch plays.

I think the idea of setting up the run by the pass isn't the dink and dunk game, just that if teams are worried about you burning up their secondary they're less likely to drop the the 8th man in the box and the Lbers will be hesitant to play the line as much if they feel you're going to press them down field.

Still things on offense should be as much attacking in the right instances and taking what they give in others. I know it isn't fun to watch sometimes but, hell if a team is giving AJ a seven yard cushion think about a quick WR screen. Slaton broke the back of some teams last year because our offense was winning the time of possession portion of the game.

mike moffat
09-25-2009, 10:26 AM
All that I heard for a week before the game, and even on game day by the announcers were that the Texans had to run the ball in order to win. The weather was going to be wet and the Texans would be able to run at will on the Titans.
Great crystal ball that some people were looking into.
Maybe we didn't know who "At Will" was?

BigBull17
09-25-2009, 10:53 AM
Not missing anything. It's nothing new that some of us haven't been wondering ourselves.

Even if we grind out 2.3 yards a play Kubiak is going to be dedicated to trying to run the ball.

With this offense, you have to be. Thats why the Play Action works even if we arent running well. It is a slow process, but if you don't respect the run, eventually it will start to go places. Remember, most of pour games with good running totals last year were on games where the run starts off slow, and then hits like a tidal wave.

Norg
09-25-2009, 12:19 PM
i just think we need to get slaton in more swing passes it hasent worked yet this year but dont give up on it it has worked in the past

with that many hands out there able to catch the ball the D will simply run out of people to cover

euro-Texan
09-25-2009, 12:20 PM
All that I heard for a week before the game, and even on game day by the announcers were that the Texans had to run the ball in order to win. The weather was going to be wet and the Texans would be able to run at will on the Titans.
Great crystal ball that some people were looking into.
Maybe we didn't know who "At Will" was?

I think At-Will shut Slaton down. Man that guy can get into the backfield.

Goldensilence
09-25-2009, 12:25 PM
With this offense, you have to be. Thats why the Play Action works even if we arent running well. It is a slow process, but if you don't respect the run, eventually it will start to go places. Remember, most of pour games with good running totals last year were on games where the run starts off slow, and then hits like a tidal wave.

All I'm saying is if running it up the middle isn't working....I dunno try another approach? What made Slaton so effective last year was getting his speed in space. I don't see the same burst and I think the new palying weight has been effecting him.

I dunno if it was his idea or the staff's but, Kinda in the mind of if it was so effective last year. Why change it?

Texecutioner
09-25-2009, 12:45 PM
I understand this in contrary to Kubiaks beliefs because, "using the run to set up the pass" is his battle cry. Through all of my frustration in our first 5 quarters of football this season, I have wondered (often aloud) why can't we be a pass first offence? New Orleans does it with some success. I'm not suggesting we model our game after New Orleans. I'm merely saying:

1. We have more weapons in our passing game.

2. If we can force opposing defenses away from the line, the running lanes will open for Slaton.

3. Based on our run defense so far, I'd rather see teams like the Jags being forced to play the catch-up game instead of feeding MJD down our throats all day.

Obviously we looked terrible we were forced to do this in the 2nd half of the Jets game, because it was obvious we had to pass to get into the game, but while playing catch-up against Tacks, I though our passing game proved strong enough to carry the load.

Am I missing something?

I agree with everything here and think that you're exactly right. I don't think that Kubes will ever do that though. That's one of the things that I hate about the guy. He's so stuck in his ways and game plans and is so stubborn about it no matter what the situation is. I've heard him say in the paper time and time again, that he'll run the ball just to run the ball. It's all he knows and that's what he'll stick to rain, sleet, or snow.

I agree though. At this point after two games, that would be a smarter way of attacking teams to get this running game going.

The Pencil Neck
09-25-2009, 01:42 PM
I agree with everything here and think that you're exactly right. I don't think that Kubes will ever do that though. That's one of the things that I hate about the guy. He's so stuck in his ways and game plans and is so stubborn about it no matter what the situation is. I've heard him say in the paper time and time again, that he'll run the ball just to run the ball. It's all he knows and that's what he'll stick to rain, sleet, or snow.

I agree though. At this point after two games, that would be a smarter way of attacking teams to get this running game going.

I think that you need to run just to run. Even if it's not working, you need to keep doing it. Other teams need to know that you're committed to the run so they honor the play fakes.

You don't have to have a running game that's smoking hot or even average to get people to honor the play fakes, you just have to have the other team aware that you're committed to attempting the run come rain or come shine. Of course, it's better the hotter your running game is but as long as we have the threat of a run, people will honor it.

And right now, people are shutting down our run because they're coming up to stop it. Which is opening up the pass. When teams start trying to take away the pass, our run game will open up. Actually, our run game will probably open up when we start playing teams that aren't as good against the run.

BigBull17
09-25-2009, 02:08 PM
I think that you need to run just to run. Even if it's not working, you need to keep doing it. Other teams need to know that you're committed to the run so they honor the play fakes.

You don't have to have a running game that's smoking hot or even average to get people to honor the play fakes, you just have to have the other team aware that you're committed to attempting the run come rain or come shine. Of course, it's better the hotter your running game is but as long as we have the threat of a run, people will honor it.

And right now, people are shutting down our run because they're coming up to stop it. Which is opening up the pass. When teams start trying to take away the pass, our run game will open up. Actually, our run game will probably open up when we start playing teams that aren't as good against the run.

I agree 100%. Want to see Schaub get heavy pressure, go pass happy.

76Texan
09-25-2009, 04:18 PM
Hey, with the score tied at 31, we passed on 1-10 to Dreessen for 6 yds. :fans:

76Texan
09-25-2009, 04:25 PM
In the Jets' game, when we were trailing only 0-3, we ran 5 times on 1st downs and passed 4 times.

On second and long (8yds or more), we ran twice and passed 4 times.

The Pencil Neck
09-25-2009, 10:23 PM
Let's see, the second drive against the Titans, we ran on every first down and then threw on every second and third down.

Then on the third drive, we threw on first down (I think it was the second).

Then we threw on first down to AJ for the long TD. And it was a play action pass that froze everyone.

I mean. Come on. We throw. A lot. And we mix it up.