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Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:10 PM
replay is starting

Ckw
09-22-2009, 08:12 PM
Recording now.

Thorn
09-22-2009, 08:12 PM
I'm DVRing it. I have to go into work in a bit. I'll watch it tomorrow night.

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:17 PM
Andre's TD never gets old

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090920/capt.7e92e222b3ca47519509a0b0dece8680.texans_titan s_football_tnmh105.jpg

False Start
09-22-2009, 08:18 PM
Damn, that was a bad a$$ catch. I could never get tired of watching it. :cool:

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:20 PM
geeze, i didn't realize Chris johnson was in the backfield and then moved out to the WR spot.

geeze

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:36 PM
they finally recognized the screen

Cush

PapaL
09-22-2009, 08:40 PM
I hope we still win this time hahaha.

AJ is a damn beast!

TexansSeminole
09-22-2009, 08:44 PM
Hope Jacoby keeps working hard and keeps contributing like he did in this game. My hope I that he becomes an effective receiver and we find a new punt returner. Everytime the opponent punts I am nervous because of him.

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:51 PM
I might be wrong but I think the Titans underestimated the impact with missing fat albert (not that I think they would pay the am't he was asking) .. his presence to collapse the pocket in the middle is really hurting them. hence the qb able to burn that secondary on 3rd downs .. Unless it was our line doing a lot better job of giving Matt the space to step into his throws being he had a pocket

one of the reasons I feel finnegan and the Titans secondary is overrated

(maybe it is because AJ burns them every game )

career average for aj 5 games 8 catches 100 yards

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:53 PM
Hope Jacoby keeps working hard and keeps contributing like he did in this game. My hope I that he becomes an effective receiver and we find a new punt returner. Everytime the opponent punts I am nervous because of him.

yeah, I hope JJ gets some confidence and swagger back

False Start
09-22-2009, 08:54 PM
Dammit....... here it comes. :hide:

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:55 PM
I hope we still win this time hahaha.

AJ is a damn beast!

yes, and my blood pressure is way down this time around

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:57 PM
Dammit....... here it comes. :hide:

Bullman missed the diving tackle , but boy teams seal off on that side of the line... is that the 3rd time we have seen that this season? (AP hit that side too in preseason)

TexansSeminole
09-22-2009, 08:58 PM
Amobi Okoye got pushed like 4 yards laterally out of the way on that 91 yard TD run by Johnson. Johnson just ran right through the gap Okoye got blocked out of.

Wolf
09-22-2009, 08:58 PM
Amobi Okoye got pushed like 4 yards laterally out of the way on that 91 yard TD run by Johnson. Johnson just ran right through the gap Okoye got blocked out of.

yeah, saw that too .. complete seal out right there :thud:

False Start
09-22-2009, 09:00 PM
Bullman missed the diving tackle , but boy teams seal off on that side of the line... is that the 3rd time we have seen that this season? (AP hit that side too in preseason)

It gave me AP flashbacks. Amobi got owned like a little kid....

TexansSeminole
09-22-2009, 09:03 PM
Amobi read the screen pretty well against the Titans but his inability to stay in his gaps on power running plays is killing us.

Wolf
09-22-2009, 09:06 PM
man Andre is a beast

Wolf
09-22-2009, 09:13 PM
here it comes
who throws punches

the "quiet giant" is talking

False Start
09-22-2009, 09:14 PM
I still cant believe there was no penalty on that play where Finnegan rode on AJ's back. :mcnugget:

Wolf
09-22-2009, 09:20 PM
I couldn't tell on the fight, I wish I would have recorded it


they had a good shot on it

TexansSeminole
09-22-2009, 09:21 PM
Looks like Andre Johnson threw Finnegan down on a block and when Finnegan tried to retailiate Andre just man handled him far into the sidelines. Combine that with the late hits by the Tacks that spilled out into the sidelines and it turns into a fight.

Wolf
09-22-2009, 09:25 PM
damn

AJ 500 receptions 5654 yards 11 yardish average and 35 tds

:photos:

texasguy346
09-22-2009, 09:28 PM
The look on Collins face is priceless on that fumble.

ReliantTexan
09-22-2009, 10:02 PM
damn

AJ 500 receptions 5654 yards 11 yardish average and 35 tds

:photos:Just a small correction. He has 6563 receiving yards.:fans:

Wolf
09-22-2009, 10:08 PM
Just a small correction. He has 6563 receiving yards.:fans:

much better! thanks for the correction.. I was going by bad memory

blitz90
09-22-2009, 10:13 PM
After watching the replay I see why Cush and Ryans got the game ball. Especially Cush, he really laid some lumber in that game.

I also noticed Barwin running himself out of a lot of plays. He's still very raw. Its only his 2nd season playing defense so he's got lots of room to grow and he needs to get better.

mattieuk
09-22-2009, 10:14 PM
I still cant believe there was no penalty on that play where Finnegan rode on AJ's back. :mcnugget:

My main thought whilst watch in the replay of the game. Don't know how that wasn't called.

mexican_texan
09-22-2009, 11:03 PM
Comcast doesn't have my sports channels up yet...anyone know a place online I can watch it?

Goatcheese
09-22-2009, 11:44 PM
Amobi Okoye got pushed like 4 yards laterally out of the way on that 91 yard TD run by Johnson. Johnson just ran right through the gap Okoye got blocked out of.

It doesn't look like he's being pushed IMO. He intentionally disengages from the blocker, and tries to stunt around to the side, with his blocker following him. As soon as he notices the run going back the other way he stops, turns around and the blocker can't move him another inch.

Just a case of misreading a draw play.

noxiousdog
09-22-2009, 11:59 PM
My main thought whilst watch in the replay of the game. Don't know how that wasn't called.

What would you call? The db is allowed to tackle the receiver once the ball arrives.

Kaiser Toro
09-23-2009, 12:10 AM
Just some thoughts:

Studdard held up better than I thought outside of one bull rush. I have a feeling that he could help this team in the run game and definitely brings a mean streak.

I predict Antonio Smith will cost us a game, I do not feel he can control his emotions. Missing a couple of tackles ain't good either.

I liked the offensive playbook.

Jacoby needs to get better. He is a fun player when you are not a good team, but where we are going he is too risky to trust him with the ball.

I am not ready to stick the fork in Bennett just yet.

Cushing played well, but more importantly brought controlled rage. He whiffed on that tackle on Crumpler and am concerned about him wrapping a more agile player in open field.

We needed a big game from AJ, Schaub and Daniels, and Kubiak and Shanny put it in their hands when we needed plays.

Sense of urgency? We performed on 4th downs, 2 of 2

OD + end zone = crazy delicious.

The defense stepped up after the 91 yard run, in the past we would have folded.

We rattled the Titans, we shook the players and the staff. Out of everything that happened in that game, what made me smile was the fact that we took their big hits and then brought the game to them. We beat that team on their opening day when they needed the game as much as us - we just wanted it more. Never have I felt that good about a Texans victory.

We have many pimples and warts that remain exposed, and the team still needs to learn how to beat a lesser talented team that punches them in the mouth early. Although there are signs of progress, there remains harbingers of disappointment. Watching that tape as a team would be fun, I hope they watched it together.

2-1 is the goal. :texflag:

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 12:12 AM
It doesn't look like he's being pushed IMO. He intentionally disengages from the blocker, and tries to stunt around to the side, with his blocker following him. As soon as he notices the run going back the other way he stops, turns around and the blocker can't move him another inch.

Just a case of misreading a draw play.

Well if you run a stunt like that you stunt another lineman in that spot. Stunts are used to confuse the olineman for just enough time to get an advantage. During that play, I didn't see any other players making an effort to cover that gap. You don't just leave gaps wide open when you create a defensive scheme.

It didn't look to me like a stunt. It looked to me like he got beat initially at the snap, couldn't recover and the result was him being completely blown out of the way. He was pushing the lineman in the direction of the play, so it doesn't look like he is driving toward a different gap, trying to stunt. Just looks to me like he is getting beat and the offensive lineman pushed him laterally rather than vertically to leave room for the pulling offensive guard to lead the RB through.

In fact, here is the video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd3wE-x_KHA4&v=d3wE-x_KHA4

The RDT just pushed straight ahead. The LDE rushes on the outside. So if that was a designed stunt and the two Dlineman next to Okoye are doing that, that leaves a large whole. Doesn't make sense from a scheme standpoint. And Okoye looks to get blown up so bad his back is to the lineman.

Texans_Chick
09-23-2009, 12:18 AM
The look on Collins face is priceless on that fumble.

I hope to work on a special project involving that. That face inspired me. Teehee.

The worst part about this loss from the Titans perspective is that they've just had two absolutely demoralizing losses. One on primetime and one against a division opponent at home. And now the next three of four games are on the road with the Colts at home. That can't be fun to think about, especially with maybe doubts about their ability to provide good pressure with a four man rush, which has been their bread and butter.

The Jets have tasted what victory feels like and may smell some blood in the water.

76Texan
09-23-2009, 12:19 AM
Well if you run a stunt like that you stunt another lineman in that spot. Stunts are used to confuse the olineman for just enough time to get an advantage. During that play, I didn't see any other players making an effort to cover that gap. You don't just leave gaps wide open when you create a defensive scheme.

It didn't look to me like a stunt. It looked to me like he got beat inititally at the snap, couldn't recover and the result was him being completely blown out of the way. He was pushing the lineman in the direction of the play, so it doesn't look like he is driving toward a different gap, trying to stunt. Just looks to me like he is getting beatan and the offenwive lineman pushed him laterally rather than vertically to leave room for the pulling offensive guard to lead the RB through.

Okoye + Bulman + Cushing + Wilson = TD

Goatcheese
09-23-2009, 03:03 AM
Well if you run a stunt like that you stunt another lineman in that spot. Stunts are used to confuse the olineman for just enough time to get an advantage. During that play, I didn't see any other players making an effort to cover that gap. You don't just leave gaps wide open when you create a defensive scheme.

It didn't look to me like a stunt. It looked to me like he got beat initially at the snap, couldn't recover and the result was him being completely blown out of the way. He was pushing the lineman in the direction of the play, so it doesn't look like he is driving toward a different gap, trying to stunt. Just looks to me like he is getting beat and the offensive lineman pushed him laterally rather than vertically to leave room for the pulling offensive guard to lead the RB through.

In fact, here is the video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd3wE-x_KHA4&v=d3wE-x_KHA4

The RDT just pushed straight ahead. The LDE rushes on the outside. So if that was a designed stunt and the two Dlineman next to Okoye are doing that, that leaves a large whole. Doesn't make sense from a scheme standpoint. And Okoye looks to get blown up so bad his back is to the lineman.

I don't know what video you're looking at, but he completely disengages from the O-lineman and runs to the right on the 91 yard TD run. Unless the Titans have secret Jedi force pushing powers Okoye was not pushed 4 yards off the play. He misread it, and ran himself out of the play.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i174/SchoonPK/Okoyemistake.jpg

dalemurphy
09-23-2009, 07:42 AM
It doesn't look like he's being pushed IMO. He intentionally disengages from the blocker, and tries to stunt around to the side, with his blocker following him. As soon as he notices the run going back the other way he stops, turns around and the blocker can't move him another inch.

Just a case of misreading a draw play.


No, he's just a lazy, disinterested bum. He gets pushed and doesn't bother to resist. I've looked at that play about 8 times. There is no stunt there.

Silver Oak
09-23-2009, 08:33 AM
I am not ready to stick the fork in Bennett just yet.



the pass across the middle (early 4th qtr?) where Collins threaded a perfect pass, but Bennett managed to get his arm in and knock it loose from the receivers hand, was as god as play as I've seen him make.

Hooston Texan
09-23-2009, 10:01 AM
the pass across the middle (early 4th qtr?) where Collins threaded a perfect pass, but Bennett managed to get his arm in and knock it loose from the receivers hand, was as god as play as I've seen him make.

In addition, the short TD pass over Bennett was a great route and thrown. That is an extremely tough play for any CB to defend when run correctly, and the Titans did it. Hats off to them.

Other observations:

1. In terms of pass rush, the Titan D-line now consists of a bunch of high-motor, try-hard guys but no individual on that line requires special schemes by the offense. With (a motivated) Haynesworth gobbling up blockers and collapsing the front of the pocket, the other Tack linemen are menaces. Without him, they are all blockable (even Vanden Bush-league) if the OL plays sound football. Despite all their protestations to the contrary during the offseason, I think the Titans are discovering just how much they miss Fat Albert: they are now a team that needs to blitz to bring heat, and their supposedly All-World secondary is getting exposed. Badly. Those DBs should be asking Chris Johnson to send them a postcard from Honolulu, 'cause they're not going to be there this time around.

2. That said, the Tack front seven can still stone the run. In that respect, they are playing just as well as they did the previous two years.

3. Matt Turk was crushing the ball, but it looked like the coverage was extremely slow getting downfield on a couple of those. We are missing the Davis/Molden dynamic gunner duo from last year.

4. I will be very happy when Kevin Walter gets back. So will everyone else on the team who's name doesn't rhyme with Bacoby Bones.

5. I can see calling "uncatchable" on the Finnegan PI no-call, but, if the ball was truly uncatchable and beyond the play, that little twerp should have gotten a personal foul for tackling AJ after the play. That said, FineMeRick and Cushing got away with late hits, too. The former didn't really matter because the Titans got the TD on the drive anyway. The latter could have been a big call.

6. Cushing is not ready to cover the better TEs in the league just yet, but I like just about everything else he does. All of us (me included) who were questioning the pick back in April will be eating much crow if he stays healthy. The kid is a football player, and it was only his second game.

7. I think the fact that the last two years have been weak safety drafts has really hurt us. Right now, I want our first pick in 2010 to be a safety.

Vinny
09-23-2009, 10:06 AM
The first thing that strikes me about this game is the fact that we still need a DT and a S. We needed that last season, we needed it in the FA period, and we needed to upgrade there as we went into the draft. If we had legit NFL starters there this would be a hell of a defense, but it's not.

Honoring Earl 34
09-23-2009, 10:15 AM
The first thing that strikes me about this game is the fact that we still need a DT and a S. We needed that last season, we needed it in the FA period, and we needed to upgrade there as we went into the draft. If we had legit NFL starters there this would be a hell of a defense, but it's not.

It seems Rick Smith thinks he can pluck safety's in the later rounds . Which I can see every once in awhile , especially if you have a great front seven . I would like a guy who makes recievers think twice about catching a ball and a sure tackler around the LOS .

HOU-TEX
09-23-2009, 10:18 AM
the pass across the middle (early 4th qtr?) where Collins threaded a perfect pass, but Bennett managed to get his arm in and knock it loose from the receivers hand, was as god as play as I've seen him make.

He made more bad plays than good. I'm not sure what happened to him since his rookie year, but he can easily be replaced, IMO.

Texan_Bill
09-23-2009, 10:28 AM
We win again!!! :worm:

Vinny
09-23-2009, 10:30 AM
It seems Rick Smith thinks he can pluck safety's in the later rounds . Which I can see every once in awhile , especially if you have a great front seven . I would like a guy who makes recievers think twice about catching a ball and a sure tackler around the LOS .
I think a good S can be developed as a SS tends to be an undersized but really fast linebacker and a FS tends to be a slower, more physical CB body type. Guys like Jeff Donaldson (9th round), Bo Orlando (6th round), Marcus Robertson (4th round), Blaine Bishop (8th round) are the kind of guys we have been after since we set up the team....so I guess I'm being critical of them not being more aggressive in patching these holes short term if you don't have anyone developed. There have been guys on the market that could have played at a high level for a couple of years as we groom someone, but we is what we is I guess.

dalemurphy
09-23-2009, 10:34 AM
The first thing that strikes me about this game is the fact that we still need a DT and a S. We needed that last season, we needed it in the FA period, and we needed to upgrade there as we went into the draft. If we had legit NFL starters there this would be a hell of a defense, but it's not.

Vinny, don't you think that S.Cody and Robinson next to each other at DT would be at least adequate? I think those guys both have shown that they can handle their responsibilities in the middle and would allow the DEs and LBs to make some plays.

Regarding Safety, I still don't understand our inaction this off-season. We could have signed Sean Jones for almost nothing.

Vinny
09-23-2009, 10:36 AM
Vinny, don't you think that S.Cody and Robinson next to each other at DT would be at least adequate? I think those guys both have shown that they can handle their responsibilities in the middle and would allow the DEs and LBs to make some plays.

Regarding Safety, I still don't understand our inaction this off-season. We could have signed Sean Jones for almost nothing.

these guys are back up players and wouldn't start anywhere else.

ArlingtonTexan
09-23-2009, 10:46 AM
I think a good S can be developed as a SS tends to be an undersized but really fast linebacker and a FS tends to be a slower, more physical CB body type. Guys like Jeff Donaldson (9th round), Bo Orlando (6th round), Marcus Robertson (4th round), Blaine Bishop (8th round) are the kind of guys we have been after since we set up the team....so I guess I'm being critical of them not being more aggressive in patching these holes short term if you don't have anyone developed. There have been guys on the market that could have played at a high level for a couple of years as we groom someone, but we is what we is I guess.

Overall, if smith does not value safety as a position a team should draft early (or at least until other areas are fixed), he is not unusual. Safeties are the defensive position drafted the least in the first round. With in the box safeties becoming a dinosuar of sorts, if anything this trend will increase league wide. that said, you are correct that the Texans have done a poor job of identifying and keeping a couple of Eugene wilson types around until they develop a longer term solution to position.

ArlingtonTexan
09-23-2009, 11:02 AM
Vinny, don't you think that S.Cody and Robinson next to each other at DT would be at least adequate? I think those guys both have shown that they can handle their responsibilities in the middle and would allow the DEs and LBs to make some plays.

Regarding Safety, I still don't understand our inaction this off-season. We could have signed Sean Jones for almost nothing.

On Jones, I heard last year that the Browns were disappointed inhis play. Between not getting any significant contract and being the 3rd, if not 4th S for the Eagles, methinks he has become a familiar name that is not as good as we think.

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 11:28 AM
I don't know what video you're looking at, but he completely disengages from the O-lineman and runs to the right on the 91 yard TD run. Unless the Titans have secret Jedi force pushing powers Okoye was not pushed 4 yards off the play. He misread it, and ran himself out of the play.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i174/SchoonPK/Okoyemistake.jpg

There is no stunt. Look at the other defensive lineman, they aren't stunting. DeMeco blitzes between Okoye and the other DT. Why would Okoye stunt where there are 2 other lineman and a linebacker and leave a huge whole alone for a DE to control? It's not logical.

Either way, if you think he intentionally runs out of the play or you think he's pushed out of the play, he messed up bad. You can't just leave your gap. Anyway, you don't see a DT immediately disengage from their blocker and by himself, outside of the designed scheme, roam all the way across to the other side of the defensive line, because he is "reading something". Defenses play gap control, not everybody line up and then at the snap do whatever you want.

dalemurphy
09-23-2009, 11:31 AM
On Jones, I heard last year that the Browns were disappointed inhis play. Between not getting any significant contract and being the 3rd, if not 4th S for the Eagles, methinks he has become a familiar name that is not as good as we think.

But I know for a fact he can tackle! The point is that he is a player with some ability and experience who we could've signed for almost nothing... and, we didn't even try or try with anybody else. Instead, for reasons beyond understanding, the organization thought D.Barber was going to be the next Ronnie Lott.

dalemurphy
09-23-2009, 11:35 AM
these guys are back up players and wouldn't start anywhere else.

At some point this season, the Texans are going to fall into having Robinson and Cody on the field together. My prediction is that when this happens, there will be a lot of praise and relief on the message boards about our DT situation. I think they will be pretty good. Just a prediction based on limited information but I have been right before, so it could happen again.

dalemurphy
09-23-2009, 11:38 AM
There is no stunt. Look at the other defensive lineman, they aren't stunting. DeMeco blitzes between Okoye and the other DT. Why would Okoye stunt where there are 2 other lineman and a linebacker and leave a huge whole alone for a DE to control? It's not logical.

Either way, if you think he intentionally runs out of the play or you think he's pushed out of the play, he messed up bad. You can't just leave your gap. Anyway, you don't see a DT immediately disengage from their blocker and by himself, outside of the designed scheme, roam all the way across to the other side of the defensive line, because he is "reading something". Defenses play gap control, not everybody line up and then at the snap do whatever you want.

You are totally right! He gets pushed and instead of fighting the block and taking care of his responsibility, he just flows with the block, hoping that he runs into the play or someone else bails him out. I can stand this freakin' guy! Nor the fact that the Texans won't hold him accountable!!

The Pencil Neck
09-23-2009, 12:35 PM
There is no stunt. Look at the other defensive lineman, they aren't stunting. DeMeco blitzes between Okoye and the other DT. Why would Okoye stunt where there are 2 other lineman and a linebacker and leave a huge whole alone for a DE to control? It's not logical.

Either way, if you think he intentionally runs out of the play or you think he's pushed out of the play, he messed up bad. You can't just leave your gap. Anyway, you don't see a DT immediately disengage from their blocker and by himself, outside of the designed scheme, roam all the way across to the other side of the defensive line, because he is "reading something". Defenses play gap control, not everybody line up and then at the snap do whatever you want.

I definitely see this as Amobi at least thinking there was a stunt going on. He's running away from the block. It may be that Antonio Smith was trying to get back over into that gap and got blocked or it may be that Amobi just screwed up. But from that view, it definitely looks like Amobi intended to vacate that gap.

I'm going with Goatcheese on this one.

HOU-TEX
09-23-2009, 12:38 PM
I definitely see this as Amobi at least thinking there was a stunt going on. He's running away from the block. It may be that Antonio Smith was trying to get back over into that gap and got blocked or it may be that Amobi just screwed up. But from that view, it definitely looks like Amobi intended to vacate that gap.

I'm going with Goatcheese on this one.

From the looks of the play in regular speed it looks as if Okoye just flat out took the play off and was pushed out of the play. No resistance what so ever.

False Start
09-23-2009, 12:53 PM
They are showing it again at 12:00 PM today. (9-27-09)

Double Barrel
09-23-2009, 12:55 PM
Never have I felt that good about a Texans victory.

Great overall post, but the above quote says it all about how I feel after the game, as well. 19-10 was fantastic, beating the Colts at Reliant on Christmas Eve was superb, but the feeling last Sunday was DY-NO-MITE!!

Thorn
09-23-2009, 12:55 PM
I worked to late to be able to watch this last night, but I'll be watching it when I get home tonight. Can't wait. :)

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 01:01 PM
From the looks of the play in regular speed it looks as if Okoye just flat out took the play off and was pushed out of the play. No resistance what so ever.

Yup. Okoye takes a small inside move, which I don't get considering the positioning of the rest of the defense, and the offensive lineman pushes him out of the play.

infantrycak
09-23-2009, 01:08 PM
I ain't jumping in the middle of this one (frankly because my DVR stopped the recording prematurely) but I will say NFLNetwork confused the replay of this on one show I watched. They called the play a stunt by the Titans and diagrammed out a pulling guard and RB coming over to seal off the DT's from the far side. Poor nomenclature.

Kaiser Toro
09-23-2009, 02:41 PM
I definitely see this as Amobi at least thinking there was a stunt going on. He's running away from the block. It may be that Antonio Smith was trying to get back over into that gap and got blocked or it may be that Amobi just screwed up. But from that view, it definitely looks like Amobi intended to vacate that gap.

I'm going with Goatcheese on this one.

If you go to :15 in the video you will see Bush & Kollar working with Amobi and the DL on the famed Stunt and Run. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHrRVJtV4IM

GP
09-23-2009, 03:41 PM
From the look of the first and middle photo by Goatcheese, I gotta' say that it looks like Amobi was reading the run play as if he thought Johnson was coming right over center or left guard. Johnson slows down to a crawl for a millisecond and pops to the right on his first cut, and that's when Amobi recognizes that he guessed wrong.

In the first photo, Johnson is just receiving the handoff and is still fairly deep into his own backfield. One of the Titans olinemen is way out in front and basically into the LB area almost immediately, and I think Okoye was thinking Johnson would be dashing right through that vacated area.

To me, it looks like Amobi thought Johnson was going to zig and instead Johnson zagged.

IMO, Amobi was playing football and thought he had the gap that looked to be an obvious "wide open" running lane. Then there was a huge pile-up in the middle as Johnson bounces it to the right side and is off to the races.

Concerns about our defense aside, one must stop and possibly ask the question "Maybe it was just a really good blocking effort by the Titans and an even better job of guessing which way to run by the running back?" I mean, a disaster play isn't always a case of us sucking. Every now and then you have to be willing to accept the possibility that the opponent just did a really good job.

Don't you guys think the Titans fans are pulling their hair out about how bad Matt Schaub and the WRs and TE made their defense look? Yet we're one of the top offenses in the league. When you do something really well, it takes the best on the other side to nullify it or keep it 100% in-check.

Chris Johnson is going to become that teams' undisputed #1 back. He has vision, balance, and speed. Jerking the lineman's jersey as he ran by him will end up being highlight material for the NFL for a long time, IMO. It provided help to the lineman who then could tell which way to block for Johnson, and it gave Johnson a slingshot move to accelerate his burst through the lane. Maybe it was just a really good play?

Goatcheese
09-23-2009, 03:47 PM
No, he's just a lazy, disinterested bum. He gets pushed and doesn't bother to resist. I've looked at that play about 8 times. There is no stunt there.

There is no stunt. Look at the other defensive lineman, they aren't stunting. DeMeco blitzes between Okoye and the other DT. Why would Okoye stunt where there are 2 other lineman and a linebacker and leave a huge whole alone for a DE to control? It's not logical.

How is he being pushed when he completely disengages from the RT, and isn't being touched.

Does the RT have mystic Jedi powers? We should really file a complaint with the league. Using Jedi powers would be cheating.

Either way, if you think he intentionally runs out of the play or you think he's pushed out of the play, he messed up bad. You can't just leave your gap.

I don't disagree, but there's a big difference between a mental error and being dominated. You can fix discipline in one week with enough yelling. Being physically dominated is for the season, and maybe career.

Anyway, you don't see a DT immediately disengage from their blocker and by himself, outside of the designed scheme, roam all the way across to the other side of the defensive line, because he is "reading something". Defenses play gap control, not everybody line up and then at the snap do whatever you want.

Mario got a sack on Favre during the preseason doing the very same thing. Okoye just screwed up and jumped the gun, reading pass too early, and getting burned by the draw.

I definitely see this as Amobi at least thinking there was a stunt going on. He's running away from the block. It may be that Antonio Smith was trying to get back over into that gap and got blocked or it may be that Amobi just screwed up. But from that view, it definitely looks like Amobi intended to vacate that gap.

I'm going with Goatcheese on this one.

Exactly. Nobody is saying Okoye did a good job, just that he isn't the little wimp getting bullied on the play ground like some want to believe.

Either way he needs a good ass chewing(no homo).

Texaninlild
09-23-2009, 03:50 PM
I love the replay. You record and figure out who screwed up. The one long run around the end for Johnson, looked like Barwin lost containment. On most running plays looks like Myers couldn't block my grandma.

barrett
09-23-2009, 04:00 PM
Goat, This isn't the only game film of Okoye looking like he just jogs out of the play. That is the main issue with him. He's consistent. That's the problem!

Texinlid, I don't know what you're watching. (with Meyers) I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Meyers looked like he played decent. Maybe you're seeing Studdard getting destroyed right next to him and getting them confused.

76Texan
09-23-2009, 04:07 PM
Goat, This isn't the only game film of Okoye looking like he just jogs out of the play. That is the main issue with him. He's consistent. That's the problem!

Texinlid, I don't know what you're watching. (with Meyers) I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Meyers looked like he played decent. Maybe you're seeing Studdard getting destroyed right next to him and getting them confused.
I got confused between Myers and Brisiel a lot.

Against the run, Myers was OK, but far from great.
He did his job in the passing game though!

barrett
09-23-2009, 04:11 PM
I agree far from great. My assessment of the entire OLine was that way though. Other than D. Brown, they all struggled but it really felt like more of a result going up against some big strong physical guys that really hit the gaps aggressively. Partly, that's why we struggled running but had such success passing. They really stacked up against the run!

76Texan
09-23-2009, 04:13 PM
I agree far from great. My assessment of the entire OLine was that way though. Other than D. Brown, they all struggled but it really felt like more of a result going up against some big strong physical guys that really hit the gaps aggressively. Partly, that's why we struggled running but had such success passing. They really stacked up against the run!

I'll buy that!:tiphat:

barrett
09-23-2009, 04:19 PM
I sincerely expect us to get the running game going as soon as we have a better matchup. There may be a situation here where teams are figuring out how to stop the run against us by putting bigger stronger guys up against our smaller, quicker linemen and shooting those gaps more aggressively but the beauty of this team is if they do that, we can really eat them alive in the passing game with the weapons we've got!

I like it!

76Texan
09-23-2009, 04:21 PM
I sincerely expect us to get the running game going as soon as we have a better matchup. There may be a situation here where teams are figuring out how to stop the run against us by putting bigger stronger guys up against our smaller, quicker linemen and shooting those gaps more aggressively but the beauty of this team is if they do that, we can really eat them alive in the passing game with the weapons we've got!

I like it!

I'm a little worried about Studdard though! :thinking:

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 04:22 PM
How is he being pushed when he completely disengages from the RT, and isn't being touched.

Does the RT have mystic Jedi powers? We should really file a complaint with the league. Using Jedi powers would be cheating.


That's not how the play begins. If you saw the angle from behind the defense they showed on NFL replay it is clear. Okoye takes an inside move which consists of one quick step forward and to the right, and the OL takes advantage by pushing him to the side he took a quick step to. The result is Okoye being dominated. The only reason he disengages after that is to try to get around the OL that was/is dominating him. It's very clear from the view behind the defense. Why is Okoye taking an inside move with 3 defenders to his inside and only 1 to his outside?

It isn't like Okoye starts running 4 yards to his right immediately at the snap. He only takes a quick step and that's all it took for the OL to take advantage.

If you watch how the rest of the defense positions themselves after the snap it becomes obvious that he wasn't supposed to be looping around the right side of the defensive line. Again, one player doesn't stunt while the rest of the line runs straight forward. It doesn't make sense to do that.

Mario got a sack on Favre during the preseason doing the very same thing. Okoye just screwed up and jumped the gun, reading pass too early, and getting burned by the draw.


No he didn't. THAT was a stunt play. The DT went outside on his side, the other DT went inside, and Mario looped around because 3 offensive lineman were bunched up blocking 2 defensive lineman, just as the play is drawn up. This is easy to see as a stunt play because multiple lineman are participating.

We are talking about two completely different plays.

Exactly. Nobody is saying Okoye did a good job, just that he isn't the little wimp getting bullied on the play ground like some want to believe.

Either way he needs a good ass chewing(no homo).

Yea he does need to get chewed or just benched. He has been consistently out of position and blown up. I see it as him getting out physicalled, you may see it differently, but we agree that he is f'ing up.

How long is the coaching staff going to watch this happen before they just significantly limit his snaps.

barrett
09-23-2009, 04:32 PM
A. Okoye has three plays in the second half where he has a positive impact on the game. every single other snap he is literally run out of the play easily or kept away from the passer by 1 man. He makes a play for a loss that Cushing would have made if he didn't and he penetrates on a run play causing the RB to change direction slightly. And thirdly, he collapses the pocket causing the QB to run and subsequently fumble the ball giving us the win.

Goatcheese
09-23-2009, 04:40 PM
That's not how the play begins. If you saw the angle from behind the defense they showed on NFL replay it is clear. Okoye takes an inside move which consists of one quick step forward and to the right, and the OL takes advantage by pushing him to the side he took a quick step to. The result is Okoye being dominated. The only reason he disengages after that is to try to get around the OL that was/is dominating him. It's very clear from the view behind the defense. Why is Okoye taking an inside move with 3 defenders to his inside and only 1 to his outside?

I don't see how you're coming to these conclusions. Apparently there was another 91 yard run that I didn't see, because that's not what happened during the play I watched.

It isn't like Okoye starts running 4 yards to his right immediately at the snap. He only takes a quick step and that's all it took for the OL to take advantage.

If you watch how the rest of the defense positions themselves after the snap it becomes obvious that he wasn't supposed to be looping around the right side of the defensive line. Again, one player doesn't stunt while the rest of the line runs straight forward. It doesn't make sense to do that.

Orly?



No he didn't. THAT was a stunt play. The DT went outside on his side, and Mario looped around because 3 offensive lineman were bunched up blocking 2 defensive lineman, just as the play is drawn up. This is easy to see as a stunt play because multiple lineman are participating.

Go watch 1:06 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8124bec4/Vikings-17-Texans-10) as the DTs rush straight ahead, and mario loops around after initially rushing straight ahead.

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 04:43 PM
A. Okoye has three plays in the second half where he has a positive impact on the game. every single other snap he is literally run out of the play easily or kept away from the passer by 1 man. He makes a play for a loss that Cushing would have made if he didn't and he penetrates on a run play causing the RB to change direction slightly. And thirdly, he collapses the pocket causing the QB to run and subsequently fumble the ball giving us the win.

Yea, he did some good things in the game. He read the screen pretty well all game, and he did get that pressure at the end. His problem is when he is asked to just rush ahead and penetrate or eat blockers he usually gets beat or tries to go around instead of through which results in gap breakdown.

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 05:16 PM
Orly?


Yea, it goes against the definition of a stunt.

Go watch 1:06 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8124bec4/Vikings-17-Texans-10) as the DTs rush straight ahead, and mario loops around after initially rushing straight ahead.

I can't watch flash videos right now but ill check that out later. What I remember is Mario taking 2 steps forward, then looping inside around the 3 interior lineman.

The defensive lineman doesn't need to loop or run sideways for it to be a stunt. All they need to do is rush straight and a little bit to the side while pushing their lineman to whichever side they are supposed to, to avoid losing contain or just leaving a gap open.

I don't know if Bush is a good defensive coordinator, but you don't get to be one in the NFL if your stunting schemes leave wide open gaps. It's a pretty fundamental flaw if they did. If your going to loop a guy across the line on a stunt, you have to cover that guy's gap with someone, you just can't leave it wide open.

The play with Okoye could have been a stunt if DeMeco would have blitzed farther outside and Smith would have stunted inside but neither did. It seems easier to believe to me that Okoye messed up rather than both DeMeco and Smith.

Doesn't seem like we are going to convince each other though so agree to disagree.

barrett
09-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Yea, he did some good things in the game. He read the screen pretty well all game, and he did get that pressure at the end. His problem is when he is asked to just rush ahead and penetrate or eat blockers he usually gets beat or tries to go around instead of through which results in gap breakdown.

to make it clear, I wasn't praising him. I was taking advantage of the small number of plays where he was effective and describing them.

Sadly, there were literally only 3.

I'd love to see how he played if he only played 12-14 snaps a game... for several reasons.

dalemurphy
09-23-2009, 05:23 PM
A. Okoye has three plays in the second half where he has a positive impact on the game. every single other snap he is literally run out of the play easily or kept away from the passer by 1 man. He makes a play for a loss that Cushing would have made if he didn't and he penetrates on a run play causing the RB to change direction slightly. And thirdly, he collapses the pocket causing the QB to run and subsequently fumble the ball giving us the win.

I'm not trying to to slander the guy, but I would rather have Petey Faggins and Matt Stevens rotating at his DT spot, rather than watching him lineup 50 plays per game.

barrett
09-23-2009, 05:28 PM
seriously though... i've really enjoyed this debate between you guys trying to figure out if he's running out of the play or being run out of the play. it's pretty sad either way.

it's coming up on my NFL replay on DVR right now. i'll chime in in a second even though I think I already know the answer.

barrett
09-23-2009, 05:54 PM
it's very possible that this is a stunt involving 91 and 56. If Cushing sets up where he is (over the center) but slides over to fill the rather large hole that is created by 93 attacking upfield unblocked maybe this play is stuffed or at least held to a minor gain.

91 leaves the area, if 56 slides into his lane (perhaps confusing the OLine) and you have a safety over the top to support.

problem is, this defense along with the offense set up and 56 slow to react or reacting incorrectly leave the D out numbered and out of position.

Bulman is unblocked. He's setup wide. The RT slides in and goes after Okoye (who runs/is run out of the play) the RG picks up 59 blitzing. We'll come back to the LG. The LT takes on 94 who is going upfield. This leaves 90 uncovered. He attacks same as Bulman on the other side. The speed of the play leaves both 93 and 90 out of position and behind the play.

Here's the key, the C attacks 56 and the LG pulls into the hole where 56 would have been (or 59 if he hadn't blitzed). It's a classic trap play but we're out of position because we blitzed 59 and 56 is caught up on the C.

This leaves the LG out in front with no one to take on. He waits for the safety while CJ is smart and waits for him to engage before he cuts up field.

Seeing as Kubiak mentioned that one of the TD's was on 56 I'm guessing that he was supposed to slid into that spot left by 91. If that happens we're still left with the C out in front to take out the safety.

It reminds me of something Kubiak said in preseason. "Thats the worst defense we could be in against that play.

I think that was true in this case as well.

Even if 91 doesn't pull / get pushed out of the play there is a chance we're in the same situation except that there isn't as big of an opening. Either way it looks like we're out manned in that setup.

barrett
09-23-2009, 05:59 PM
it still offers no reason as to why 91 should end up where he is unless it's as a safety gap incase the RB cutz back outside and 90 wiffs. Seems a bit far fetched though.

barrett
09-23-2009, 06:09 PM
okay, they give you a downfield view. It's clearer to me now. He's run out of the play. He looses his footing and shuffles right to keep from falling down.

Cushing doesn't react to the pulling guard. If he does or if Okoye holds his position then Johnson should be run into or near Bulman or the Pulling guard will have to take him leaving a much smaller gap but still the center would be out in front on the safety.

Point is I guess, there are lots of things going wrong on this play.

barrett
09-23-2009, 06:16 PM
You ever get that feeling that maybe you're obsessing about something a bit too much?

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 06:23 PM
it's very possible that this is a stunt involving 91 and 56. If Cushing sets up where he is (over the center) but slides over to fill the rather large hole that is created by 93 attacking upfield unblocked maybe this play is stuffed or at least held to a minor gain.

91 leaves the area, if 56 slides into his lane (perhaps confusing the OLine) and you have a safety over the top to support.

problem is, this defense along with the offense set up and 56 slow to react or reacting incorrectly leave the D out numbered and out of position.

Bulman is unblocked. He's setup wide. The RT slides in and goes after Okoye (who runs/is run out of the play) the RG picks up 59 blitzing. We'll come back to the LG. The LT takes on 94 who is going upfield. This leaves 90 uncovered. He attacks same as Bulman on the other side. The speed of the play leaves both 93 and 90 out of position and behind the play.

Here's the key, the C attacks 56 and the LG pulls into the hole where 56 would have been (or 59 if he hadn't blitzed). It's a classic trap play but we're out of position because we blitzed 59 and 56 is caught up on the C.

This leaves the LG out in front with no one to take on. He waits for the safety while CJ is smart and waits for him to engage before he cuts up field.

Seeing as Kubiak mentioned that one of the TD's was on 56 I'm guessing that he was supposed to slid into that spot left by 91. If that happens we're still left with the C out in front to take out the safety.

It reminds me of something Kubiak said in preseason. "Thats the worst defense we could be in against that play.

I think that was true in this case as well.

Even if 91 doesn't pull / get pushed out of the play there is a chance we're in the same situation except that there isn't as big of an opening. Either way it looks like we're out manned in that setup.

I thought about this when I was watching the play for like the 3rd time, but Cushing doesn't blitz, he backpedals at the snap. Cushing just starts to attack the line of scrimmage when the center comes downfield and meets him. If it's a stunt and Cushing is involved I don't see why Cushing would backpedal, unless he just completely got the play wrong. That still doesn't explain why Okoye ends up so far outside and away from the LOS

It looked to me like Cushing and Ryans were showing blitz but Cushing dropped into coverage, and when he did recognize run the center was already out of the gates attacking him, like you said.

I think the TD that was on Cushing was Chris Johnson's first TD run on 3rd and long. Cushing getting caught inside just a little bit, a little holding by the offensive lineman, and McCain getting caught inside all helped CJ get outside. But that doesn't really sound like it's all on Cushing.

I watched a lot of NFL this weekend and I can't remember seeing another play where the DT ended up 4 yards to the opposite side of the DL and 2 or 3 yards off the line of scrimmage. Not sure I have ever seen a stunt where a DT runs so far from parallel to the LOS when stunting and ending up so far from the LOS.

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 06:32 PM
You ever get that feeling that maybe you're obsessing about something a bit too much?

Oh yea, all the time. We have a new defensive coordinator and defense is my favorite part of football.

I didn't have a whole lot going on today either, 2 people walked into the leasing office all day. I would much rather talk football than read CNN haha.

76Texan
09-23-2009, 06:42 PM
Lol lol!

TK_Gamer
09-23-2009, 07:06 PM
you know whats really funny? as much as yall are disecting this one play, the coaching staff probably knew who screwed up before they ever looked at the film. The have the advantage of knowing the design of the play and the assignments where we have to guess. I'm sure there were plenty of butt chewings handed out after this game. ...oh sorry, ....carry on!

barrett
09-23-2009, 07:08 PM
I thought about this when I was watching the play for like the 3rd time, but Cushing doesn't blitz, he backpedals at the snap. Cushing just starts to attack the line of scrimmage when the center comes downfield and meets him. If it's a stunt and Cushing is involved I don't see why Cushing would backpedal, unless he just completely got the play wrong. That still doesn't explain why Okoye ends up so far outside and away from the LOS

It looked to me like Cushing and Ryans were showing blitz but Cushing dropped into coverage, and when he did recognize run the center was already out of the gates attacking him, like you said.

I think the TD that was on Cushing was Chris Johnson's first TD run on 3rd and long. Cushing getting caught inside just a little bit, a little holding by the offensive lineman, and McCain getting caught inside all helped CJ get outside. But that doesn't really sound like it's all on Cushing.

I watched a lot of NFL this weekend and I can't remember seeing another play where the DT ended up 4 yards to the opposite side of the DL and 2 or 3 yards off the line of scrimmage. Not sure I have ever seen a stunt where a DT runs so far from parallel to the LOS when stunting and ending up so far from the LOS.

I guess I was initially thinking that he could be asked to slide into the vacated spot left by Okoye, not necessarily blitzing but filling the gap per say.

However, on that second angle from the opposite endzone, it became very clear to me that he's not running down the line on a stunt. He's getting pushed out and loosing his balance and shuffling over to keep from falling down.

It isn't a stunt at all in my opinion. Having said that, it's still possible that Cushing makes an error by not reacting to the guard on his side pulling. That's what I'm thinking was his error that Kubiak mentioned.

But you're right that he mentioned it was a technique error. Initially I thought it was on the run down the sideline as well where he was held.



thanks for the support that i'm not the only crazy person here guys.

barrett
09-23-2009, 07:10 PM
you know whats really funny? as much as yall are disecting this one play, the coaching staff probably knew who screwed up before they ever looked at the film. The have the advantage of knowing the design of the play and the assignments where we have to guess. I'm sure there were plenty of butt chewings handed out after this game. ...oh sorry, ....carry on!

I know we'll never understand completely. They keep much of it a mystery on purpose but it sure makes it a lot more fun to watch when you at least have some sort of understanding of what they are doing. And it was already a ton of fun to watch! But yeah, they probably looked at it and said something in a language I don't understand to each other.

TK_Gamer
09-23-2009, 07:21 PM
well the good thing is as I mentioned in another thread, missed assignments are correctable. I think if you take out 3 big plays (bad plays by us) we did at least an adequate job of holding back CJ. now the pass play, thats just bad. Anytime a guy like that gets a pass in open field you are gonna pay. Westbrook made a whole career around screens and dump passes to the point that it opened up the run plays for him.

barrett
09-23-2009, 07:26 PM
I actually feel like our run defense is a strength for us. Go figure. When they get some of the assignment stuff worked out I'll feel pretty good about how they are playing the run. The LB's specifically look stunning.

TexansSeminole
09-23-2009, 07:29 PM
I actually feel like our run defense is a strength for us. Go figure. When they get some of the assignment stuff worked out I'll feel pretty good about how they are playing the run. The LB's specifically look stunning.

Yea, our linebackers have been a huge plus. Diles has played much better than I expected coming off that leg injury.